Gone Too Soon with Gavin Spokes, Nanna Blondell and Ryan Corr
59:12 Share

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair? Done well. Kitchen sink install? Done well. Deck upgrades? Done well. Electrical upgrade? Done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Hire high-quality, certified pros at Angie.com.

It fills me with unrelenting shame. So that's what this is about then? Your shame? Our shame, Harwin! Shame on the whole of House Strong. Because I laid my hands on that insufferable Cole, the son of a steward. He is the knight of the Kingsguard now. A sailed princess. A defender of future. You have laid us open to accusations of an uglier treachery. And what treachery is that?

Dun, dun, dun. No, I'm really, I'm really just like not following you, Dad. Like, what are you talking about? What treachery would that be, though? You're like being so weird right now. Do you want to say it out loud? Because I'm not going to say it out loud. Yeah, because like, I don't, I literally don't know what you're talking about. Oh, my God. Did you not have your cup of coffee today, Dad? Because you're acting so weird. Oh, my God.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon. That's right. The first season is wrapped, but like Grayscale, we refuse to go away. Ha!

And this episode is dedicated to some of our, just a favorite point of discussion amongst fans of this world and this show, which is characters that are gone too soon. They die or otherwise leave the stage. And we just wanted more of them.

Quick warning for those of you who haven't finished House of the Dragon or even if you haven't finished Game of Thrones for whatever reason yet. We're going to be talking about spoilers from both of those shows, including which characters die and which don't.

Yeah, I think in the case of all three of our guests today, they did, in fact, die. We're going to talk to the strong men, both Ryan Corr, who plays Harwin Breakbone Strong, and Gavin Spokes, who plays Hand to the King Lionel Strong. Plus, we're going to hear from Nana Blondel, who plays the unforgettable Lady Lena Velaryon. I'm really excited about all these conversations. All right, let's talk about some of our favorite characters who sadly left us, you know, way too soon. I'm thinking about, you know, from House of the Dragon, Valkyrie.

Queen Emma, who we meet in episode one and who gives us really an incredible performance and then unfortunately dies. The Strong Boys, I think, are a wonderful example of this, particularly Harwin Strong, who lives on in fanfic worlds. The romance between he and Rhaenyra is inspiring to many of the fans of the show. Any of those, any of others that stand out in your mind?

Oh, my God. I mean, all of those are really good. I think... You know, I said this after the episode aired, but Lady Rhea Royce. Oh, she's great. I mean, I would happily watch a spinoff just about her. She seemed like such a bad bitch. And it was just so much fun to see her do her thing. Yeah, I was like...

You know, when we watch that episode for the first time, you know, all you know of Lady Royce is the vile aspersions that Damon has been casting about the Capitol about her. Yeah. And then you meet her and you're like, she's cool. She actually seems pretty great. What the fuck are you talking about? Jerk. She seems nice.

Well, and obviously this is something that is not just unique to House of the Dragon, right? I mean, Game of Thrones also notoriously killed off so many characters. I think it blew so many people's minds, especially if they hadn't read the book, to see Sean Bean cast as Ned Stark and then have him die off. I mean, at the time, he was one of the most well-known actors in that show. It is such an incredible fake-out. Yes. That works in the books as well, where you're, you know, everything that you know about storytelling...

about the fantasy genre tells you this is the hero of our story. And it is such an incredible moment when he is executed. You were saying in our pre-pro, you had a good theory about some of these characters. And I think Ned Stark is a good example of this as a person who simply...

doesn't have the tools to play the Game of Thrones the way it needs to be played if you're going to survive. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think there's a narrative audacity to killing off characters. And I think it's really interesting that there does seem to be a through line through a great many of these characters. And it is actually the ones who are just like too good for this world. Yeah. You know, I mean, you think about the strong guys, right?

In this series, right? These are good fathers and nice guys. They are like good men who, I mean, I guess, you know, obviously Harwin's lying a little, but they are trying to do their best in the world. What?

And they pay the price for it, you know? And I think as a result, that is partly why we end up with so many super compelling characters who are just like completely morally ambiguous. But it is, to your point, very different from a lot of what we see in fantasy where it's like white, black, good, evil, and that's kind of the end of the story. Yeah, Ned very, you know, had a very, very strong moral compass and a code of things that he would not do that a...

good person that a gentleman doesn't do. And unfortunately, those are the things that you need to do in order to survive. Yeah. I think you could also argue that, you know, there's a little bit of naivete too. When, you know, there's gone too soon. And if like Harwin, you exit the stage after only a few minutes,

Yeah. That's surely very easily gone too soon, too good for this world, et cetera. But I think if you're a character like Ned who's around for a little while, that is something like naivete, I think, from Ned who surely should have known better. Then why even bring your kids to this place that's a nest of vipers if you understand that the game is played like this and you don't want to play it? Like, Ned was a little lax, but also fell right under that umbrella of...

You know, that thing you're talking about. Too good for this world. Too good for this world. Yeah. We can't have the actual good ones. And, you know, you could argue we did have some. I mean, I think Jon Snow is like, he seemed like a pretty good dude generally. Yeah, generally a good guy. He had to do some executions and he definitely hung a child. But that was like, yeah, kind of had to do that. Yeah.

But I think it seems like House of the Dragon, especially, I mean, you think about sort of our like main characters, you know, I mean, Damon is like definitely super complicated character. I mean, I think pretty much everybody is, especially the dudes. I think the ladies, I like to give them a little more benefit of the doubt just because, you know, patriarchy has is forced them into these situations. Yes, absolutely. They don't get to act with the kind of

that a character like Damon can act with. And any other, any characters from Game of Thrones that you feel that fall under this rubric of

I've gone too soon. Well, one who definitely comes to mind is Liana Mormont, played by Bella Ramsey. They are such a firebrand. They are just so great. Oh, my God. When Liana calls various members of the Northern Council to the carpet for not adequately supporting how stark it is such a, oh, my God, moment. Yes, that character was the best. They were fantastic. They were so good.

That's like a great example of it. I am. Gosh, one of my favorites is Corin Halfhand, who teaches John the ropes beyond the wall before basically giving up his life so that John can continue to go undercover as a wildling. That was a it was a great one. Quaithe. Remember Quaithe of the lacquer mask who meets Danny in the Far East and

and gives her some predictions about the future. And then Danny's like, good tips. I'll see you later. When I would have, I would have been like, Hey, can I offer you a job? Yeah. We're hired. I know it looks kind of like dodgy right now, you know, the operation, it's definitely a startup feel, but you know, we can't offer like lunch and different perks, but think about it because maybe we can offer you some stock in this, in the future.

coming Targaryen revenge. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I'm really excited for us to get to all three of these conversations because I think each of these actors had a lot to say about how to fill in the blanks with some of these characters, too, who may have a huge role in our hearts, but, you know, who we don't actually see that much on screen. Jason, let's start with Ryan Corr, who you weren't here for this interview. I got to talk to Ryan on my own, but I'm excited for you to hear it, too. Ryan, of course, played Harwin Strong, Rhaenyra's lover, and he's a very, very good actor.

potential baby daddy, but we, you know, let's say no more than that for fear of treason. I thought Ryan brought a lot of really good insights, especially to Harwin's character in terms of kind of the duality of both obviously breaking rules, but also, you know, being a person who has to uphold them as that character. Yeah.

Brian, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thank you very much, Greta. Thanks for having me. So did you watch Game of Thrones back in the day? I did. I was a late watcher. The huge fandom had gone through it and my family, particularly my mom and sister, were a massive fan of the show. And I sort of came onto it late. I prefer to be able to

continue binging a show that I really enjoy. Do you know what I mean? Then it's drip feeding me through the weeks. It hurts too much. I get that. I get that for sure. So it's been really fun to interview a variety of cast members at this point because there was so much secrecy around what they were auditioning for, which made me wonder for you and your role, like at what point did you realize like, oh, this is a throne situation? Yeah.

Yet they're really secret with it all. I mean, even while you're auditioning, you sort of you have a random idea that you're auditioning for something fantasy. And I think from memory, they used like scenes with muddled character names from the first series. And so if you were savvy enough or if you'd seen it when you got this audition, you could sort of put two and two together. And so I think this might be the Game of Thrones. So where were you when you found out you got the role?

I was in my home on the east coast in Sydney, and it had been quite a long audition process. You know, I think we sort of went in about eight or nine times, and we spoke with Miguel and Ryan at length about what they were sort of looking for. And, yeah, in Sydney when I got the call from Miguel, I think, I said, we'd like you involved in it. Every now and then in this career, you have, like, those moments where you've got to mute the phone and sort of drop and fist bump. Ah!

It was totally one of those ones, you know. That's the reason we enter into this industry in the first place, to play high concept fantasy. And this is one of those dreams come true, I think.

So, yeah, I'm really fascinated to talk to you about Harwin because I feel like with him, almost more than any other character, there's a lot of kind of between the lines backstory that has to get filled in. I mean, when we really see him, it's in episode six, which is also, you know, the beginning or the moment of our biggest time jump. We've had 10 years. We know, well, is it licentious to say that he and Rhaenyra have had several children? Where are you landing on that? We had to make a decision one way or another.

It's difficult, you know, because I think Miguel, you might have even said so on this podcast that we jumped such a large amount of time that there was not really any point in sort of doing lots of expositional text trying to explain what had happened in particular in the way. It's more about the audience and these fans that have such an amazing understanding of that filling in the gaps. We had a blueprint of, of course, what happened in the base material.

which is sort of scattered it as well. You know, in the book, you get little insights into, I mean, particularly for Harwin, into Harwin's life and how it relates to Rainera and coming through the city watch and,

and out of Harrenhal towards King's Landing, but you have to, you do have to put two and two together. So yeah, it was sort of about combining what we could read into those gaps in the base material and then talking at length with Miguel and Ryan about what the version of Harwin and Harwin-Rhaenyra's relationship that we had in the script. And obviously we jumped 10 years from when they get together. And so it was really about, for me, trying to fill those gaps

scenes and those moments with as much richness as possible so that we could see a relationship that's taken place over 10 years but at a specific place in time much later in the relationship. And you want to feel the connection between those people. You want to feel the love between Harwin and his children.

I think you guys have probably discussed that parenthood's a massive theme throughout this series, the birthing bed being a battlefield. Absolutely. And I think what's really interesting about the Strongs generally, you know, Harwin is very much about a paternal relationship with his father. There's a really interesting relationship there. And he also has that paternal relationship, obviously co-parenting with Rhaenyra,

Yeah, I definitely want to talk more about fatherhood because I think you could argue Harwin might be the best dad we've ever seen in this show, honestly.

But I'm really curious about something you said. You know, you're right. We did talk to Miguel about the idea of, you know, minimal exposition in this moment where a lot is shifting in the story. You could also argue even in the script, you know, Harwin definitely has conversations with Rhaenyra about,

But even then, it seems like so much of their relationship and what we as viewers are figuring out in that episode is the subtext of it all. You know what I mean? Totally. And I mean, Harwin's a man that's lived a lot of his life in the shadows. I think that was a part of the understanding, you know, I think he was happy to. And so trying to show those elements of the relationship, you

with subtlety and within subtext was kind of the challenge. You know, how do you show that Rainier and Harwin care for each other this much and have a relationship that spans 10 years through looks, do you know what I mean? In a world in which we're not allowed to actually express that love. And so I think that sort of became a part of the texture of that relationship that we were forming between Emma and I and Millie and I. It's a tricky sort of process. Miguel always spoke to me about the fact that we need these two sides for him. If he's going to be this doting father,

And this person of honor who's sort of there for his kids in this way, we also need to have the hunter and the barbarian and the man who's capable of danger and violence. And I think sort of treading that precipice was what we tried to bring into him. So did you read the book beforehand?

Yeah, I did. There's a lot that happens and it's incredibly wordy. And sometimes, you know, one paragraph will sum up, you know, two years. And in a kind of a similar way to the script for Harwin, at least, you could have anchor points and you know things that have happened, but you really do with your imagination have to fill that in.

We know certain anchor points like he was the commander of the Watch. He was a great knight, had an attorney with Christian Cole. And as we know, you know, the City Watch was notoriously could be violent. You know, they were known around King's Landing as being kind of tough at times and, you know, debaucherous. And so Harmon would have spent many years around and within Damon and within the City Watch and a lot of the darkness that was there. So, yeah.

those elements sort of all in there. And I think ultimately he found himself in a place where he wanted to be a great father and whether that was born of his relationship with his own father or strained relationship with his own father. I'm not sure. I think he was happy to be there. Yeah. It's interesting to think about in the context too, of, of,

of honor, partly because I think you're right. He does seem like a really upstanding guy. He is showing up in a way that Laenor literally is not, you know, even in that one episode we see. I think, too, it's fascinating from the point of view of

of what he is giving up or at least the sacrifices he's making if he gets caught in this situation, right? I mean, this is something that he absolutely should not be doing given that he's part of the City Watch. Yeah, well, as we learn, it's potentially death to the children, myself and Rainiera. You know, it's a treason. Um...

I think Rainier, I think we see early on when they first meet within the television show, you know, they both share an anti-authoritarianism. They both share this anarchic sort of need to break out of the system. You know, Rainier, obviously, out of a patriarchy and out of a way that it's going, doesn't feel like she's being listened. Harwin, I think, in many different ways. But there is a common ground there that whatever the rails that the world's trying to keep them on, they sort of push against. And I think that's possibly...

where they found some common ground. And I think you sort of see that manifest through their relationship. I think even with Laenor, you know, it's in many ways a wonderful modern family that exists in Thrones and one that sort of works within its own right, at least for a while. And I know we were really interested in exploring those family dynamics within a world that, yeah, as you say, it's quite shunned upon. Do you think Harwin would have known about Rhaenyra and Ser Criston Cole?

Yeah, I think he would have had to. Harwin and Christian Cole have been involved in tournaments through the years, and I think being as involved as Harwin is in later years within the system, particularly with his father as Master of Laws and as Commander of the City Watch, I think those things would be known to him. I just don't think he minds that much. I think there's a certain simplicity to Harwin's great wants.

So, do you think Harwin really was a good dad? I mean, it seems to, like, obviously, it's a low bar in Westeros in terms of, like, models of positive fatherly. But it seems like Harwin was really doing his best. Yeah, that's what I attach to. You know, I was discussing with Miguel earlier

at the beginning of all of this different ideas of strength, you know, and not just being physical strength, but, you know, a strength in love, a strength in parenthood. I discussed, you know, my own father who I really admire and who's just always been one of the strongest symbols in my life.

and why I see him as strong and different situations in my life growing up in which I saw him in a certain light. And I really wanted to sort of use that because as a young man, I always saw that as a form of strength. And it was strength because I always knew he was there. I always knew even if he travels around that I had that support, I could feel that pillar next to me. And I thought those elements were really important for Harwin, given that we don't ever actually get to see

their relationship out in the open and we don't get to see, you know, that must be quite a hard place to be. And I think that would breed slowly a resentment where you aren't able to express yourself the way that you'd like to. And I think we see that possibly boil over in episode six, obviously, with Kristen and with his father when they're arguing a bit later. And I think you sort of see these two moral codes and where they separate. You know, Lionel being master of laws and a bit more politically inclined, I think Harwin is...

The Stronghouse generally are pretty ambitious. You know, we've held many, many roles throughout Westeros, but I think that Harwin's wants are different to his father's, and that's where they find themselves at loggerheads as well. Well, then let's add Larys to that mix, because he, you know, is Harwin's brother and is very different, obviously. Just, like, devious as hell. Yeah.

Right. And Matt Needhams, who's just the sweetest man in the entire world and just one of the most incredible actors, you know, he'd come over like, hi, guys, good morning, and then flip his foot in the other direction, start shuffling around. You'd be like terrified of him, you know, like get away from my shoulder, brother. Yeah. Laris, I mean, you'd have to ask Matt about the complications of Laris because, yeah, what a complex individual, one who's grown up.

I guess somewhat in the shadows of his older brother, always pining for things, for different things that he wasn't at, but always being the listener. And he's constantly around. He's been in the political circles and hung in many rooms. He can sort of gather information in a way that not many people can.

And I guess it ultimately corrupts him. But we wanted to set up at the start that, you know, we wanted that to come as a real surprise. You know, we wanted to be fighting for these two as brothers and believe in the relationship so that it's much more of a pulling the rug out of you from under your feet when he's betrayed, when he betrays them. Yeah, no kidding.

So, obviously, you know, we talked about the strength of Harwin Strong. His character's nicknamed Breakbones. He's the strongest man in Westeros. How do you think he would fare against the Mountain, who's the strongest guy in Game of Thrones? I think the Mountain would probably fold him into a pretzel. When I first got casted, I did say to Miguel and Michael, I said, you know, I've got like the body of a high diver, right? You're like V-shaped? She's like my nan, you know what I mean? Yeah.

And they said, you know, we feel like you have an essence or there's something in you. Yeah, yeah. It was one of those film voices, an essence of Harlan. I don't know he'd fare very well against the mountain, but also where he's called Breakbones from is kind of muddled as well. I mean, in the book, it's Mushroom that sort of names him Breakbones. And I think it's after he had his collarbone broken by Christian Cole, an attorney. So, yeah.

Some of those things can be hearsay and some of them can be biased and you sort of, you know, it's a lot about kind of like Laris as a character. It's about deciding what you can and can't

believe and the way in which you fill those gaps that are left for us in the text. Well, and I know I haven't read the books, but I know talking to people who have read that book, how exciting it is that the TV show has sort of like taken a stand and clarified some of the questions that had been in the original text. I mean, that's such a cool role for an adaptation to take, right? That's not usually something that you get to do as a showrunner.

No, and I think because Ryan works hand in hand with George, I think Miguel is so sort of central as showrunner as well. I think they have, you know, obviously such an expert understanding of the world as a whole that if there's anyone that can make those decisions, it's probably Ryan and George, you know. But what I did like is...

it still adds to that ambiguity. It's like, did they clarify it? Or is this just another version of? Or was the original version in the book more true to what we're telling here? And I love that ambiguity. I think it invites creativity. And I think it invites, you know, an audience to be more...

involved and engaged in the narrative, which is ultimately what we want, right? I think so. So did you have to like bulk up for the role then? Or were you like, I'm strong in spirit and that's enough? No, I did. That was the first thing. I spent, so it was like September 2020 when we first went over for rehearsals.

And so about then I did, I, I, uh, I went with a personal trainer down there at Fox studios who was, who was helping out Thor at the time. Amazing. And we trained every day for over six months and I was about 15 kilos heavier than I am now when, when I was playing him. So look, I can't quite get to the mountain size, but as far as Ryan can push, I was, I was right up there, you know?

So what's next for you? This is kind of hard for me to draw, pull my mind back because I think I've played three different people since Harwin. I actually spent a bit more time in Spain after we shot Thrones over there. Spain seemed to be the country of last year, doing a little Gothic noir feature in the desert in Fort Aventura. And then I've just completed down here in Australia as a complete change of pace in Brisbane, a, um,

a comedy called Limbo with Bob Morley and Emma Harvey. It's a comedy based around loss and suicide. So quite a tricky tone to hit, but... No kidding. And also very, very different from the Thrones universe. And I think I try and just sort of keep myself guessing a little like that. You know, I try and keep myself excited and entertained with what we're doing. I love what I do and the opportunity to work with all these wonderful creatives in these different worlds. So...

This was an entirely different world and we'll see how we go with it. But trying to make people laugh, pathos and humor and finding that balance is really the challenge of the next one for me. Yeah, that makes sense. So do you have any crazy stories about people recognizing you as Harwin since episodes have come out? I've just started to walk down the street. I'll have people like yell out Team Black. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for taking the time. Team Black. Team Black.

Ryan had a lot of interesting things to say, especially around that idea of building this character from the little amount of information they had, both in the source material and in the script. And it's something that Gavin Spokes talked about a lot, too. He played Lionel Strong, who, of course, was Harwin's father and Laris' father. And it was especially interesting to talk to Gavin about the complicated relationship between the three of them, because, I mean, we've talked about... Harwin's a good guy. Lionel's a good guy. Laris...

kills both of those people there's not so much a good guy so yeah figuring out what that relationship was like and creating some backstory for that was a really interesting thing to talk to Gavin about Gavin welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast thank you very much for having me Greta

So Lionel is a fascinating character to talk about, I think, because that's a huge book. There's not a lot about this character. Can you talk a little bit about some of the backstory that you came up with, how you connected some of the dots for yourself? There isn't much written about him in the books, but there's plenty that was written in the script. So on the surface, the stuff regarding like his personality in terms of his loyalty, his honesty, his belief system was kind of there on the page. It was very black and white. He's a very black and white man.

But then there's also stuff in the source material about him, you know, being a very intelligent guy. He'd got six links. He'd been to the Citadel. You know, he was going to become a maester. But also he'd been a bit of a ladies' man. So, you know, when did that happen? And is that why he didn't become a maester? Was that too boring? The family had already had somebody in the family be a Hand of the King. So there was a lot of history in terms of

This is a guy who knows what he's talking about. And then actually when we got into the rehearsal rooms, it was a chance to talk to Ryan and Mig about how I saw him in relation to me playing him. And he felt like a sort of, in the British Army, we have these guys called the non-commissioned officers and they're guys that come out through the ranks, were very honourable and very...

devoted to King and Country and they don't really question anything and I thought that's incredibly rare for a Thrones character really so we went with that

Well, yeah, I think there's a lot about Lionel that's pretty rare. I mean, even speaking of integrity, right? Like, that's just not something that we actually see a lot of in this world. No, no. I mean, Viserys was full of it. Absolutely. Westerling was full of it. And then Lionel, really, that might be the only people you can say their moral compasses is pretty straight. I mean, yes, he's a typical sexist, as anybody from a lot of the guys in that period are.

And at the start, he changes his tune. As soon as the king says, I'm naming Rhaenyra, then he's like, okay, I'm going to go full bells and whistles with that choice you've made. Ryan Corr and Matthew Needham and I, we all chatted about family history as well, which was more influencing for Matthew Needham playing Larys, really.

Yes, can you talk a little bit about that? Because, yeah, I mean, you are the father of two of these sons. They couldn't be more different, both character-wise and in terms of how they move through the world, but also, you know, their own integrity or lack thereof, right? This kind of stuff was done when we'd be staying away in a hotel in the bar. And, you know, because we didn't get a huge amount of rehearsal time together because we actually didn't have any scenes together other than me and Ryan had a couple of scenes together. And we discussed this idea that, you know,

In this period or a medieval period or in a Thrones analogy, there isn't any tolerance really to anybody who is different, who has a disability.

And we came up with maybe an idea that maybe his mother had died in childbirth because Laris' mother is maybe different. Laris' mother, your wife. Yeah. Maybe she died in childbirth because we know that Lionel had a couple of wives and maybe he had a bitterness towards Laris because of that.

Maybe he didn't get quite enough love as a kid. You know, and I don't know if that helped Matt at all, whether we sort of chucked it in the bin. I think it maybe, it certainly helped us when we were on set a couple of times together that there was a slight disdain towards Laris from Lionel. Absolutely. I think Laris is such a fascinating character too, because as you mentioned, he is such an outsider.

really intriguing man. And as with a lot of George's characters, the shading of grey in all of them is so complex. Because with Laris, I think what's so fascinating is once, okay, now you've killed your dad and your brother, where the fuck else can you go? Right. Like that's pretty bad. You know, if you're prepared to kill your dad and your brother, then really, you're probably prepared to do anything.

Right, right. It seems like you've crossed the line at that point. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're either banging their brothers or sisters or they're killing them. It's one of the two, isn't it? Well, I think that's partly what makes a character like Lionel seem so rare that it's like, oh, you're just a good dude, like trying to get through the day, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was lovely because Paddy and I became really good buddies and Lionel and...

and Viserys, they've got 10 years where he's Hand of the King and there's 10 years of peace. And Viserys, other than being poorly, was probably a very happy man during that period. Sure. And Lyna was a very decent Hand and then they end up, just all goes to shit.

One thing that's been really interesting talking to every cast member is how much time they got speaking to Ryan and Miguel, the showrunners, about each of their characters. It seems to me that that can't always happen in a show like this. But I'm curious, like, is that rare for you to get that much time sort of like figuring out and fleshing out a character the way you did with this one? Oh, 100%.

There is so much time on set because the setups are so massive that you can always grab one of them and one of them would always be there whether Mig was directing or not, either he or Ryan Condal would have been on set.

And you could always go and talk to them about what you were thinking. And if they weren't available, there'd always be an EP around or one of the writers. Usually the writer of an episode would be there. Sarah Hess is just an absolute joy and full of ideas. And all of them had this sense of truth about what we were creating. Because if we didn't, then it just all falls apart. And you could always lean on them for something during the making of it. Yeah, definitely. They were very giving.

That's really cool. So speaking of truth, the source text for House of the Dragon says that Lionel and Harwin die in a fire, but it doesn't say who set the fire. That's something that the show kind of like put their foot down and said, it's hilarious. Yeah. How did you react when you saw that in the script? Well, I never saw it originally in the script. It was something that was told to me before I was given that actual script. So I was a bit like, holy shit, that's quite a...

That's quite a thing to be done, isn't it? My own son kills me. I think I just found it all so exciting, if I'm honest, Greta. I just couldn't believe I was going to be a part of this wonderful world and to just dip my toe in it for a whole year was quite extraordinary all round. It was amazing.

You know, you were there for such a brief moment, but you still got to have such a crucial role in the series. I think that's partly what Game of Thrones and now House of the Dragon are so well known for, right? Is the fact that they're willing to take these characters and create them as fully as possible, but they're also not afraid of killing them off. What's it like to play something, to have a role like that? Well, if you... The first series did it so beautifully with Ned.

And if you employ somebody so incredible as Sean Bean and you're prepared to kill him at the end of the series and he's such a good guy, then that benchmark is actually something to be... You're in very good company. Yeah, you're in great company. You're part of a canon. Having Sian Brooke play Aymar at the start in that episode one and she dies and Sian is like one of our greatest actresses at the moment in the UK. Yeah.

She was so good in that role. Yeah. They obviously knew they needed an incredible actress. And Sian's one of the best, you know. And she was only in one ep, but had such an impact. Yeah. Yeah.

So what was the audition process like? It's really interesting talking to people because it seems like everyone kind of figures out that they're auditioning for a Thrones show at a different point. Like, oh shit, wait a second. Is that what's happening right now? How was that for you? I got a self-tape come in.

so it would have been in lockdown and i was in hamilton the musical at the time and not at that time we were closed because of pandemic and who were you in hamilton did you were you with king george yeah yeah so i was playing king george and i was expecting to go back and i'd done a couple of tellies i'd done an episode on the star wars thing and a couple of other bits and bobs and i was fully expecting to go back to hamilton and i was really really excited because i loved it i'd only done it for five months and i was going to finish my contract and um

Go on to do something else. And then this self-tape came in. And what does that mean, a self-tape? They're like, just record yourself on your phone reading this stuff, essentially? Yeah, yeah. You're sent a couple of scenes and they're usually dummy scenes. So I got some scenes that I think were from probably series four or five. The names are all changed, but my character was called LS. And it had just been announced, funnily enough, that Emma Darcy had been cast. And I'd fortunately done a play with Emma about five years ago

And I text them and said, listen, I think I'm up for this thing. Do you think it could be this? And they said, I think it could be Gav. I'll put in a good word for you. Anyway, cut a long story short about I'd done my self-tape. And then two days later, I had to do a Zoom recall with Kate, the casting director, which I...

didn't do very well I didn't think but Kate was incredible I was on there for about an hour and a half she worked me really hard with quite a big scene and I was like okay I don't think that's going to go my way and even if it does go my way I'll probably have to go and meet you know Mig and Ryan you know it's a big gig and then two days later I got the offer so it was like a two week period and it happened really fast for me it was a bit of a whirlwind and then like next thing you know you're on the back of a horse

The training's arrived. Oh my God, that's amazing. So what was your reaction like when you got the offer? I was sat in a car having had a COVID test for another film I was on and I was waiting for the result in my car. And my agent called me and I said, hello, mate. And he went, it's an offer. I said, what's an offer? He said, House of the Dragon, it's an offer. And I burst into tears.

Kevin, that's amazing. Absolutely. Yeah, because the best thing any actor will tell you, worth a salt, and I don't care if it's Tom Hanks or if it's somebody who's just graduated from drama school, the best part about being an actor is when you get offered it. That's the best part. And then you go, oh shit, I've got to do it. Oh shit, I have a lot of work to do. Yeah, yeah.

And that's exactly what it was for me. But then I just got really excited. And yeah, it was amazing. I had the best year ever. It was wonderful. That's really cool. So you've mentioned a couple of different theater projects you've done. Do you have a preference between theater and television? Or are they just sort of like different muscles that you like exercising? I think they both have. I prefer being on set, if I'm honest. I prefer being with...

a huge amount of people all being incredible at what they do. I enjoy meeting different people on television and film. I think you get to meet some extraordinary. I got to work with Gary Oldman this year, which was extraordinary. Um,

So that's very exciting. I really enjoy watching the process of how, you know, a camera department put something together, how the DOP sets a shot up. I like mucking around with hair and wigs. I enjoy the banter because there's a lot of downtime. I have a good time on set. I really enjoy it. And you get free food, so what's not to like? But the slight difference is unless you're playing an incredible role, which in television can add a lot of pressure, on theatre you just...

Obviously, you get the spontaneous reaction, but you get to live that journey immediately for the two hours. And that continuity is something that you obviously don't get, very rarely get that with Italian film. And I think I love them both for very different reasons.

I'm from the theater and I'm doing a play at the moment, but I know while I'm doing this, I'll get to the end and go, God, I'll be desperate to get back on set. And I think that's quite a nice way to be. And I'm sure in a year's time, I'll be like, I want to go back and do a play or a musical or something. That's very cool. Well, I can't wait to see what's next for you. And I appreciate you chatting with me today, Gavin. This was very fun. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah. Cheers. Thank you. Thank you. You're either...

Fucking your brother or killing him, Jason. That's just how it goes over here. Is that really the only two options? There's got to be something else. I'm not sure that I want to do either. It's a great question, but I'm not sure. I think those are it. Let me know if you find a trap door for sure. I would love an option C. Oh my gosh. You know, both of those interviews were a lot about how do you build a character when you're

and find like a lived in history when that character is just not going to be on screen that much. And I think our next interview really dives into that. Nana Blondel, who plays Lady Lena Valerian,

talks about how important it was to think about the relationship that Lena has with Damon, approaching them from the perspective of, you know, a relationship, a domestic relationship, a family, and trying to find those lived-in moments so that when you see her on the screen, when you see them together on the screen, you see Lena and Damon and their kids on the screen, you just kind of understand what the relationships are without them being spelled out. I thought it was really interesting to hear that.

her perspective on that. Nana, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thank you so much for having me. As you're going through the process of auditioning for this role, of being contacted for this role, at what point did you

begin to understand that this was in that Game of Thrones universe? When I got the request, I was like, I'm never going to get this. It just said like prequel Game of Thrones. And I was like, I'm Swedish. I don't even speak like correct English. And I definitely don't speak, you know, British. Not the case. Yeah, you're doing great. Thank you. Thank you so much. But my vocabulary is so...

It's small. But I was like, I'm never going to get this. I was kind of reluctant to even do a self-tape. Because I remember it was in this big holiday in Sweden, what we called midsummer. So everybody's like, nobody's working.

So I was at the countryside and my agent was like, no, you have to, you know, do this audition. It's like, you have to send it in tomorrow. And when I got the pages, it wasn't from, you know, the script. It was no like explanation of anything. It was just like different names, different. It was kind of like a dummy side. And it was like eight pages of this British, you know, I was like, I have to Google translate it because I don't understand anything. Yeah.

But I did it. And then I think just a couple of... Like a week later, a couple of days later, they wanted to see more and more. So like the audition process was so long. I think around three months or four months. I don't know.

I think I didn't understand how big it was going to be, this prequel. I thought it was going to be maybe a little bit smaller and maybe not as popular. So I think at the premiere in London, it kind of dawned on me how big this was. What was it about the premiere that made you realize that? I mean, I'm from Sweden, so we have like small premieres. And it was like all of the fans and like all the press about it. And also like, I think some sort of picture of me and Matt from the set leaked and all like...

people were like investigating writing me on Instagram and like journalists in Sweden was like is this you are you going to be in the new prequel and I'm like no it's not my face I can't say anything so it's kind of like in yeah it was in different stages that I kind of understood the scale of it all and

And also when I went to set that I saw like is such a big budget. The fact that all of it is as elaborate as it is. I could see that being intimidating for sure. Yes, and definitely because I was like maybe five months before I even had my first like shooting day. I was rehearsing with Matt and Miguel, the director. And he was like, I'm so excited about your scenes because we're going to be in this castle. We're going to be on location. Yeah.

And it's going to be like a small intimate film set. So I imagine it was going to be like a small crew in Spain. And then when I come, like we were shooting in Grenada on this castle. And when I come in the car, I see this castle on this like mountain. And like I see all the unit base and it's like all these trucks. And I was like, are they all here for our scenes? Yes.

Then I kind of like, oh my God, is this what Miguel calls like a small, like intimate film set? I was like, not in my world. So tell us, how do you view Lena Valerian? How did you go about building this character? So with Lena, like when I got the script, their scenes are, it's like a short movie, but they have like a 10 year, you know, marriage before we even meet them in episode six.

So for me, I kind of try to create stories about their marriage. You know, I kind of saw her like this young woman who meets this bad boy. And, you know, they run away and live a fabulous life. And then they have kids and then they end up in like the suburbs, you know. And she is bored.

She's like, what happened to my bad boyfriend or husband? So when we meet her, try to see it as almost, you know, those women that just they're just stuck in this suburb area. And like they want to go home to the family, want to go back to the city, even though they know it could be a risk for the bad boyfriend. If we go back to the city, he's going to get into trouble. Speaking with like Ryan and Miguel, I remember my first Zoom meeting with them. They

I remember Miguel said that you need to think of Damon as an addict. And that really clicked for me in a sense of like how to in different ways trying to reach him, you know, throughout the scenes.

And then, of course, I imagine how she claimed vaguer and had this, you know, adventurous life. And she has this fierceness and try to imagine like scenes of what she's hoping to or what she's lacking or missing in a sense. So I could try to build it that way and then worked a lot with a vocal coach to just get, you know, to just be able to be free on set, to be able to speak with this accent and stuff.

Interesting, that makes sense. Miguel, he even gives you scenes.

that he has imagined in his own head, you know, about the day before you had this, you woke up, you had this dream, like, I can't remember now. But I remember he giving me all these, like, other scenes, and like scenes with the family, when we, you know, rehearse with the actors, Shani and Eva, who play my daughters, Bela and Reina, I mean, we created like memories of like,

family memories and, you know, it was just, it was such a pleasure ball and, you know, and luxury to work with Miguel in the sense that he gives you so much so you can just, you know, background and...

scenes and events of the character's life and also the family's life. But I think the episode, it really shows like glimpses of their 10 year marriage. I think you can see like... It does. I mean, she is complaining and she is unhappy, but you can still see small little glimpse of a smile, of a joke he makes, you know, in the scene on the rooftop. So we really try to work with those scenes to really get like just a sense of the 10 years story.

that have passed. I totally agree. You get a sense that they really have a partnership, which is the first time you see that, especially in Damon's character, I think. You know, so far he's...

He likes to have sex with whores. He murdered a wife. And here we are. And it's sort of like, is this guy a good guy? And it seems like, at least with Lena, like he does show up. Yeah, because for me, that's the only scenes. So I was like, it was so exciting for me to like start watching the first episode. And then, you know, because I played with Matt and that type of Damon, I was like, oh, my God, he's really, you know.

Whoa. You really came a long way by the time I met him. Yes. Yeah. She did something to him, you know? Yeah.

Well, and even her complaining is like the fact that she can be honest with him about it and expect him to respond to her and appreciate what she's saying. I mean, you know, there are a lot of contexts where if that weren't a good relationship, she wouldn't even bother saying anything because what's the point if he's not going to listen to her? And that she dares to even speak up. I mean, in the first scene at, you know, the dinner table when she's like, you know, looking at him more and he kind of hushes her, but really quietly. That even says a lot that they have this, you know,

some sort of special relationship. But still, he's Daemon Targaryen, you know? Yeah. He has many faces. So that's kind of how I saw the scenes and, like, her character. And also, she's a dragon rider. She has, like, that, you know, adventurous side of her. It's just that right now when we meet her, she's stuck in this castle, pregnant with two kids. Yeah.

And like, she is not at ease. She is not like content in her life. She wants to go back. She needs some more action. And sadly, it doesn't end well for her. I want to talk about that ending because I think the way she tries to take as much control as she possibly can in that instant is such a difference from the initial scene we see with Emma giving birth. I mean, she still gets the dragon rider's death. Did you read that as empowering?

I remember when I first read it, I was like, oh my God, is she sure the baby's dead? Like, that's crazy to go burn yourself. Like...

But then when I talked to Sarah Hess, the writer of the episode and one of the showrunners as well, she explained to me that when you see the whole show and you're going to have that, you know, first episode in the back of your head, you're going to understand why she wants to take control of her life. Because also we get to see so little of this character. I think they really wanted to give me like a bang ending scene.

I think it's a beautiful scene. But I must admit, in the beginning, I was like, this is crazy. Like, they're going to hate her. Like, I thought people were going to hate the character for doing that. Oh, wow. Interesting. Yeah. I felt so much sympathy for...

You know, in a world where women have so few opportunities to do that for themselves, I think there is something really empowering about seeing that, too. Yeah, I was really happy when I saw it because I was worried. I was like, oh, they're going to like, how could she burn? You know, the baby might still be alive. But it was a powerful scene to do. I remember Miguel, he was like...

Think of this scene as you're going through like five stages of grief, you know, maybe not denial. I mean, but like anger, bargain, depression and acceptance. And that really helped me because you're not like I don't have vagar facial expression or, you know, whatever the dragon is doing. I only had like a guy with a tennis ball. But I remember that, you know, standing there.

And they were like, you know, think of the tennis ball as Vega's eye because he's so big, you know. It's like, where is the face and where is the, you know, tail? And so I remember it was really nice of him to give me, you know, like, this is your scene. Just think of those five stages of grief and go for it. And then, of course, we did it like a hundred times, screaming for my life. But I remember it as really...

It became more important and more powerful for me when I did it than it was when I read it. There is a wonderful scene of your character, Lena, and Damon kind of frolicking in the skies on top of their dragons. What was it like filming that scene? Let me talk about my expectations about filming that scene. In my head...

I thought I was going to ride a dragon. I don't know how I could be so stupid. Well, there are dragons in Sweden, right? Yes, of course. Up in the north. Yeah.

No, I was so bummed out. It was a nice day. You know, you sit on that, you know, saddle and the others, they have smaller dragons. So they get to do like more roller coaster riding. Mine, Vega is so big. So it's like really slowly, you know, going to the left and going to the right. And then they have this, you know, leaf blowers in your face.

And then when you need more, they just put more guys with like these, you know, leaf blowers in your family. Like more wind.

It's not even a wind machine. It's like people like standing actually be like more wind and like scream louder. And you're like, the dragon is not going to hear me. She's so big. That's amazing. But it was really fun. It was a fun day. And also in my head, I was also thinking that I was going to play against Matt. Like we're going to have two, but you actually do the dragon riding alone in this Mandalorian studio. So they're like, oh, then look to your left. And then they have like,

Can't remember it was a tennis ball again or something else that you look at and it's like here he is and then you just look and you smile and it's really you have to really have it in your head and Fantasize and create you know, oh he's over there. I'm gonna smile at him or whatever we did That's so interesting on the other side of that process now with the episodes out. Have you been able to? Take in some of the response your character is so beloved by the fans not just in

fans of the books, but fans of the show as well. I think I was just blown away after my episode that so many people reached out and wrote to me on Instagram or even my email. I don't know how they found it. But in coming up to me...

I don't know if I live in this bubble because I had no idea people would like the character so much and want to see more. And people, I just received like positive things from people. And no, it was really nice. And I appreciate everyone who's written to me. That's really sweet.

The Game of Thrones franchise, they are not afraid to kill off characters, right? I mean, you are not the only character who only got, like, an episode. Yeah. I'm curious what that's like from your point of view. I mean, in some ways, that has to be kind of frustrating. It's like, oh, I got this gig. Oh, it's only one episode. But, you know, especially Game of Thrones, it's often because...

The characters, they're too good for this world. I mean, did you sort of console yourself by being like, well, she's just better than all these jerks? No, definitely. And I think also because she says what she means. You know, she's honest in every scene. And that's very rare in that whole universe because there's so much scheming going on. So, I mean, I loved playing her. And now that I've seen it, I wish I had one more episode. But I remember when I got...

But I remember because the whole, like, casting process was so difficult for me with the English and everything. So I was just, like, relieved when I found out. I was like, oh, my God, it's just only these scenes that I have to learn British. Thank God. You were, I mean, you were fantastic. Yes. Thank you. And speaking to you right now, you're completely fluent. I'm reflecting very strongly on how...

I can't speak anything and drop me in Sweden and let's see how far I get. Yes. Not only is it English, but it's older English. You know, I can speak some French. I can't speak like Shakespearean French. No, that's how I felt. This long sentence that you law the virtues of pent up, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Minstrels and mamas. I remember in my audition tape, I was like, mamas. I was like, totally the wrong word. But they were like, don't worry, we'll fix it. Do you think you'll take another role that involves Shakespeare in English or are you over it? Definitely. Now I feel like I can do this. But before, my self-esteem was like, this is impossible. It's never going to work.

But now I feel like I did it. I conquer it. And it's on, you know, television. I can definitely do it again. But I can't speak British. People are like, you can speak British now. I'm like, no, I can say those exact words in British. Nothing else. It's like people who had to speak Valyrian in the show, right? It's like we don't actually, it's like we have these exact phrases. That's all. Yes, that's all. Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what's next for you, too. Thank you. Yeah, you might see me again.

Not in the, I mean, in, in, you might see me again. In the world. In the world. Yes. Being an actor seems hard. That Nana could deliver that kind of, you know, heart-wrenching emotion to a guy holding a tennis ball is pretty incredible. It's amazing. Yeah, also shout out to the VFX team, huh? Like, that's amazing. Absolutely.

That's all for this episode. Don't forget, we will be back in two weeks. And that episode will also be our live episode from the Game of Thrones fan convention. We have even more exciting news about that episode because we are going to be joined by none other than Jon Snow himself, Mr. Kit Harington himself.

You are not going to want to miss this. If you are in the LA area this coming December 9th to the 11th, you can join us at the LA Convention Center. Jason and I are going to be there. We're going to host a bunch of the panels. It's going to be super fun. We have a lot of your favorite Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon cast members as well. Kit Harington, ever heard of him?

Get your tickets now at gotcon.events. And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Instagram at x underscore network underscore x. Just search Jason Concepcion on Instagram. You can find me on Instagram at Greta M. Johnson. And I'm on Twitter, too, for now, I guess. Yeah.

The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. And this podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socia. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks to our sponsors.

As always, to Michael Gluck-Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.