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House of the Dragon: Ep. 7 “Driftmark”

2022/10/3
logo of podcast The Official Game of Thrones Podcast: House of the Dragon

The Official Game of Thrones Podcast: House of the Dragon

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Greta和Jason分析了《龙之家族》第七集,重点关注莱娜葬礼后发生的家族冲突以及瑞妮拉和戴蒙为巩固联盟所采取的策略。他们讨论了剧中人物之间的复杂关系,包括瑞妮拉和艾丽森特之间的矛盾,戴蒙和瑞妮拉的婚姻,以及其他重要角色的动机和选择。他们还分析了剧中绿党和黑党阵营的形成,以及各个角色在权力斗争中的立场。此外,他们还探讨了剧中展现的家庭关系、权力运作以及人物命运等主题。 两位主持人对本集的改编和剧情发展给予了高度评价,认为本集情节紧凑,充满戏剧性冲突,即使是熟悉原著的观众也能从中获得惊喜。他们详细分析了剧中多个关键场景,包括瓦伊蒙的演讲、王子间的冲突、瑞妮拉和戴蒙的对话、艾丽森特的情绪爆发以及莱诺尔的假死等,并对这些场景背后的含义和人物动机进行了深入解读。

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This interminable infighting must cease! We are a family! Now make your apologies and show goodwill to one another. Your father, your grandsire, your king demands it! Say you're sorry, we are hugging it out, and then we're all going back to bed. Greta, is it a good sign if you're king and you have to say three and four times, okay, everybody go to bed, and everybody's like, no?

I don't know, though. The thing is, like, even when you're king, you're still a dad, which means the kids are going to ignore you, right? Yeah, but it feels like, you know, my parents would threaten maybe a spanking or something, but Viserys is like, I'll cut your tongue out if you don't go to bed right now. And then everybody's like...

Like, no. Oh, my God. We're talking about it tonight. Well, and just before that, even like the comical and dire moment of Sir Kristen being like, well, we hadn't anticipated princes fighting princes. Like, that's not what the Kingsguard is supposed to do. Listen, I think collaboration and communication in a professional setting is really important. But that felt a little aggressive from the guy who fucked up. Everything's fine. Everyone just apologized. It's fine. It's fine.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon. Greta, the battle lines are drawn. Mm-hmm.

They are drawn in blood. Oh my God. This like is just peak messy soap opera content and I am loving it so much. I have to say also like being a person who read many of the Game of Thrones books and generally knew what was going to happen through a lot of that show. It is so much fun to go into this just having no idea what the hell is going to happen and just being shocked every time.

Well, as a book reader, as a completionist, such as one can be with this book series in this world,

The job they have done adapting is amazing. This episode has legitimate surprises for people who have read the books and know, quote unquote, know what's going to happen. That's awesome. Just an amazing achievement. What did you think of the episode? Oh, my God. I thought it was phenomenal. I mean, I was shocked probably like 17 times. Like it just took so many turns. It was great.

I think that this episode will stand alongside some of the great Game of Thrones episodes ever. This will go up there in the pantheon of House of the Dragon slash Game of Thrones episodes. It was just a jaw-dropping one. Well, and what's so fascinating to think about it in that context is that so many, especially Thrones episodes that were like truly excellent, involved these big battles, right? And those were the turning points. The fact that this was...

family drama, I find so compelling. That's a great point. It really is...

A peak level build up to the battle episode, even though I think we could credibly argue and I will that the first shots in the battle were actually fired during this episode. But man, yeah, I mean, blood was drawn. Blood was drawn. But yeah, just an all time episode, an all time episode. Yeah, for sure. Jason, before we dive in, let's just do the quick bullet points. What do you got? Yeah, let's get into it.

The extended royal family has gathered on Driftmark to pay their respects to Lena Valerian. Hanging over the proceedings like storm clouds is the question, what's up with Princess Rhaenyra's sons? Who fathered them? Queen Alyson's green faction contends that the boys are bastards. Princess Rhaenyra's black faction says, no, they aren't. Tensions rise when Prince Aemond claims the late Lena Valerian's dragon, Vhagar, Daemon's daughter's Bela,

and Rayna and Rhaenyra's sons Jace and Luke confront Prince Aemon who calls the boys bastards to their faces and in the ensuing fight Luke cuts out Aemon's eye meaning Princess Helaena's prophecy that Aemon would gain a dragon but have to close one eye has been fulfilled from the previous episode meanwhile Rayna

Well, Rhaenyra solidifies her alliance with Daemon with some dalliances on the beach, a little loving on the beach. At the family meeting that follows the fight, King Viserys wants to know, hey, who's been calling my grandsons bastards? Queen Alicent wants an eye for an eye. Princess Rhaenyra shields her son from Alicent's attack and Alicent ends up slicing Rhaenyra's arm open. King Viserys tells everyone multiple times to go to bed.

Rhaenyra and Daemon decide that they must marry to solidify their alliance. But in order to clear the way, Laenor Velaryon has to be gone. This leads to a incredible murder plot in which Laenor Velaryon's murder is faked. He slips away to Essos with his lover, Karl, and Rhaenyra and Daemon marry according to the ancient Velaryon rites. And folks, the battle lines are drawn. Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Corlys against Alicent, Otto, and Criston Cole.

So, Jason, the first words that I wrote down...

in my episode notes while watching that funeral, were blood, blood, blood. Because that speech in High Valyrian was all about the line. And I feel like that, both symbolically and literally, was such a huge theme in today's episode. Yeah, Sir Vaimond, Valyrian's speech, the younger brother of Lord Corlys, made a very provocative speech in High Valyrian that basically called into question...

in a oblique way, who would inherit Driftmark? That was clearly, I thought for me, the subtext. And we saw Corlys go up to Lucerys, Valerion, second son of Princess Rhaenyra,

and asterisk Laenor Velaryon, but really the late Ser Harwin Strong, and basically say, hey, you're going to inherit Driftmark. This is yours. The boy, in heartbreaking fashion, says, From the Lord of Driftmark, it means everyone's dead.

Oh, my God. Very, very sad. But I think clearly part of what Vaemond is getting at here is what are we going to do? Are we really going to let these kids inherit this? Well, and I think you could also extend it beyond Driftmark to the throne in general, right? It's like we're seriously still thinking Rhaenyra's heir in this situation where like this entire thing did not go the way any of us thought it should have. Yeah.

Yeah, I think a very telling moment for Damon to laugh through this, kind of whistling through the graveyard. It was interesting to watch everyone's reaction to Damon's very, very provocative speech. Mm-hmm.

Rhaenyra clutching her boys closer to her and looking a little perturbed and worried. Viserys being like, are you saying what I think you're saying? Yeah. Otto being like, yes, keep going. Keep going. Yeah, it was it was a great scene. I mean, it's something I've I've said this before about House of the Dragon, but I'm going to say it again because I thought this episode so strongly exemplified it.

one of my frustrations with Game of Thrones was that so often our most compelling characters were in completely different places and it would take a very long time for them to end up in the same room. I just think it's such a pleasure to watch all of these characters who have so much potential to fuck shit up. Oh, yeah. Be in the same, you know, like all of them, all these different interactions you're seeing at this funeral party on the deck. Yeah. And, you know, throughout this episode, it just keeps happening and it just means that you get so much drama. Yeah.

And underlining this idea of blood and which side you're going to be on, which faction, you can see now that Alicent's decision all those years ago to enter the wedding celebration of Laenor and Rhaenyra wearing that very in-your-face green dress, a callback to House Hightower's calling of the banners, the color of the flame on the top of the banners.

of the high tower that her side became associated with this color. And then of course, Rhaenyra's side became associated with the color that she often wore, which for the house colors of the Targaryen family, black and red, but mostly black. And so these two factions, the two sides supporting Rhaenyra and Alison became known as the

The greens for Team Allison, the blacks for Rhaenyra. And that's why you might hear people refer to these two factions, the greens and the blacks. So you can really just see it now. You can look and see which side everyone is on.

Well, and especially in that first or I guess second, the funeral party scene, as I like to call it, you're seeing, I mean, we learn a lot in those first couple minutes in terms of a lot of the different dynamics that are at play. We learn. Big time. Let's see. Let's go through some of them because I think they're well, we learn Otto's hand of the king, which is, you know, an important. And he can't stop touching that pin. He can't stop caressing it. He is so happy to be back in the position. Yeah.

Clearly, Queen Alicent exerted some influence on this because I'm not sure that Viserys, considering the reason he fired Otto the first time, would have been so eager to jump back in with Otto. But here he is back in his old job. Yeah, that's a good point. We also like Jace obviously knows about his dad and, you know, kind of expresses frustration that he doesn't get to grieve his father and grandfather the way that everybody gets to grieve Lena. Your little cousins have lost their mother. Could use a kind word.

It was very, very sad. And also, you see from Alicent and Rhaenyra...

both of them grappling with having to get their children ready for what's coming and going about it in different ways. You know, Alison is grabbing Aegon by the neck and slapping him in the face at various times during this episode and saying, hey, get it together. Whereas Rhaenyra says to Jace in that very, very sad scene that,

we can't do that. Yeah. Now is not the time for this. You know why we can't do that. Yeah. Because we have to keep up these appearances. Yeah. We also get maybe another prophecy from Helena, dragons of flesh weaving dragons of thread. I have no idea what that's going to mean, but I'm very curious. Like someone follow her around and just write down everything she says because I feel like

Again, with the Westeros TMZ. Yeah. Yeah. As we see in this episode, her little Prince Aemond drop from earlier absolutely came true. Yeah. It's wild. Let's talk about the Kristen Cole Allison alliance relationship, that strong bond for a moment here. Yeah. Because, again, you noted it. You learned so much about the dynamics of

of all of these people, how they relate to one another by just the looks and the way they reacted to Vaemon's speech and the way they reacted to people entering or leaving or what other people were doing. And there's a moment where Sir Harold Westerling, the current Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, looks at Kristen Cole very suspiciously at a certain point during the funeral. And then when King Viserys decides, I'm going to go to bed, Harold,

very pointedly, I think, says... Shall I see after Queen Alice in your grace? Just to see, like, kind of put it in the king's mind. Hey, do you think it's a good idea maybe to break these two up? Maybe to get another knight in there? And then the king says, you know, thinks about it for a long moment and says no. But it's clear to me now that...

As we see the sides break down to black and green, these factions kind of solidifying, I don't know where Harold falls yet. And certainly if I am Kristen Cole, I'm thinking Harold might be an obstacle to me. Well, at the very least, Harold is calling him out for being closer than he arguably should be to the queen at this point. And yeah, that makes total sense that he should be threatened by that. Where do you think Sir Harold's

loyalties lie at this moment in time? I don't know. I mean, I could see it just being to the watch and whatever makes the most sense in terms of, you know, I mean, he has a very specific job to do and that is to keep the king and the family safe. I don't know how the hell he's going to be able to do that given how complicated all of it is. But I don't know. I think the other thing in that specific moment that I found really interesting is that, you know, Kristen Cole is like, Lionel's strong son's been staring at you since the moment we arrived, Your Grace.

It is only a look of pride, Ser Criston. Larys is the new Lord of Harrenhal.

Pretty interesting evasion. You know, it made me think that Kristen Cole does not know that Alicent is essentially in Laris' pocket now, given the circumstances of what happened. I think that that is probably right. I think that Cole probably knows that Laris and Alicent have conversations. I think clearly by the way that Alicent has been reacting to Laris ever since the fire at Harrenhal, I

I think she's maybe a little ashamed at how implicated she is in that event and also just a little scared. Like when Laris is just ready, is clearly down for anything, as he later says at the end of this episode on the boat.

And I think that's a little scary for Allison to know that you are dealing with someone who is absolutely ready to get up to the neck bloody. Yeah. I mean, he's he's a wild card, you know, he is a wild card. I think one of the things that I found interesting, I wanted to get your take is in the books. This is not a spoiler in the books. People, you know, the writers of the histories have looked back and they're like, man, I wonder what was.

Laris is such an enigma. That's the basically what emerges from the histories is Laris is an enigma.

Here, I don't know. I find myself wondering if he's not just in love with Alicent. Well, I mean, it was interesting to try to figure out how to describe the way Laris is looking at her in that scene. And the best word I could come up with was Lear's. And I don't know, my first read was that he has this power that he wants to wield over her because she was in, you know, she benefited greatly from this thing that he did for her. But then given that

much later in the episode when he says, I'm up for whatever, let me know what you need. That does make me wonder if there is more to it than that because...

He could be cashing in already on the favor he already did, as opposed to just offering more crazy favors. That is surprising to me. Not to mention, it's unclear, like, if originally the idea that Laris had or part of the idea that Laris had was, now I have something over the queen, if that was kind of his formulation, then...

It's unclear to me if that actually if he actually holds a Trump card in that case, because, you know, it's his word against the Queens and she's just going to say he's lying. And anyway, Laris telling the truth would mean to admit that he killed his brother and his father. And apart from that being a vile crime.

There is a very, very strong feeling against kinslaying in this world. If you kill a member of your family, you are marked in history. And so I just doubt whether his motivation ever was, now I have something over the queen, considering the way he's acting now.

Yeah, it threw that into question for me, too. Because, I mean, there is the argument that, I mean, he could still try to blackmail her. And who knows if she would call his bluff on that, you know? I think, I don't know. I mean, I'm very excited to talk about just the trajectory of Alicent over the course of even this episode because... Woo-hoo!

I mean, holy shit. The fact that she snapped the way she did and then expressed her remorse the way she did with Otto and to have him just be like, oh, no, girl. That was great. This is exactly what I was hoping. This is what we needed you to do all along. I think for her to get that affirmation from such a impulsive and...

obviously extremely angry moment is just setting up a lot. And I can't wait to see what happens with that. I want to back up for a second to the beginning of that entire family meeting after the fight in which Eamon's eye is cut out. I said up top, like, I think you could argue fairly that the first shots have been fired. I think it's before the knife attack and slicing open Rhaenyra's arm. You know, King Viserys has been very clear that,

No more questioning the parentage of Luke, Jason, Joffrey. No more. Yeah. No more. And if you do it, it's potentially like punishable by death. Right. I think that was clearly the implication. Right. So when Rhaenyra says, my sons are in line to inherit the Iron Throne, your grace, this is the highest of treasons. Prince Aemond must be sharply questioned so we might learn where he heard such slanders.

She says it flat out. That's treason. She does. Yeah. I think he should be questioned sharply, sharply meaning like not just we're going to ask you, we're going to strap you to a chair and we're going to ask you with like heated implements, like cooking in the fire, ready to like pull your fingernails out and stuff like that. That's what she means by sharply. So that really is the first real shot, because that's when you're right there saying, I'm going to.

to try and take Alicent out right here, because if Aemond admits, I heard it from my mom or Otto, then potentially the king's going to say, OK, off with Otto's head. We're putting Alicent in a tower and we're breaking it up and we're never going to see her again. So that was a real let's end this right now move from Rhaenyra.

It was. It was audacious as fuck, too, though. I mean, to know what Viserys feels for Alicent, to know... I mean, these are his children who are making these claims. That puts him in such an impossible position. It does. And also, I am constantly and increasingly amazed at King Viserys's...

to not make a authoritative decision ever or take a stand. And here he is doing it again. You know, just telling everybody go to bed. Let's just apologize for getting your eye cut out. Queen Alicent flat out says, Sir Criston, bring me the eye of Lucerys Velaryon. He could choose which eye to keep a privilege he did not grant my son. You will do no such thing. Stay your hand. No, you are sworn to me.

He's a member of the Kingsguard, yes, but actually, like, he should follow my orders. That is treason in and of itself if the king decided that that was the case. Right. By the letter of the law, it is. She is just gambling with the fact that King Viserys is a complete pushover right now. Nobody respects him. It's like everybody is waiting for—

for a race. Yeah. And they're waiting for that starting pistol to fire, and the starting pistol is the moment that Viserys dies. Yeah. And they're all getting ready. Well, I mean, it has felt that way even... Yeah. I mean, in the show...

The fact that he collapsed at the wedding 10 years ago, I mean, the fact that he's still around now is shocking to me, you know? But yeah, let's, Queen Alicent's outburst, she is obviously ashamed at it. Well, it's arguably uncharacteristic from what we've seen of her so far, you know? Obviously, it has taken us a lot for her to get to that point. A lot. Because, you know, she says it when she's got the knife, you know, clutched against Rhaenyra, right?

you know where is duty where is sacrifice where is honor where's all these things i think in in allison's mind she's played the role that she's been set out to play and she's played it to the lecture she's done everything that was asked of her constantly and she's been a generous and a kind queen and she supported raniera all through the years when raniera was doing whatever the hell she wanted flouting her responsibilities and now here's raniera son who is a bastard

cutting out her son's eye, and yet nothing is going to happen. So when is anything going to happen? That's Alison's point of view. And I think, you know, not necessarily an unfair perspective. Although it was amusing to me when Rhaenyra finally says, we got to find out where Aemond has been hearing this treasonous lie. All of a sudden, Queen Alison is like, oh, boys will be boys. Just...

Young prince is joking in the castle. Not a big deal. What? I mean, the way she treats Aegon is... This is a classic Game of Thrones dilemma. The boy who is...

in line to be king. Aegon not in line, but you know what I mean. Like Alicent and her supporters are thinking it's going to be, they think it should be Aegon and they are doing everything they can to move him into the throne. Well, and we know about Viserys's dreams. I mean, there's prophecy. Yeah. You know? So that's the one that they think is, they're preparing him to be king is clearly not ready.

He's drunk. He doesn't want to do his duty by marrying his sister, which I get it. And then you have the second son, Amon, who clearly, if there's one you need to worry about, if I'm Rhaenyra and a supporter of the blacks, it's Amon. Because Amon is very, very...

sharp. He snatched Vhagar and I think he was absolutely right. If you wanted to claim Vhagar, then you should have fucking claimed her. So do you think you would think that way about Amon if he hadn't snatched up Vhagar, though? Because before then, he seemed fairly benign to me, really. He was sort of like the younger brother of this like potential tyrant is how I was sort of looking at both of them at this point. I would have been more concerned about him from the other side. He's just the more serious one. He is the more serious one. To the point that Amon is even like

Egon, come on, stop with it. Stop acting like a fool. Yeah. You know? And so he's the one to worry about. And going up to Vhagar and claiming Vhagar. Yeah. That took immense courage. Oh my God. So watch out. Yes. Watch out for him. Holy shit. Well, and the way he even at the end, you know, and the fact that his face is still bloody during that entire family meeting scene was just so insane to me. But the fact that at the end of that, he's like, It was a fair exchange. I may have lost an eye, but I gained a dragon.

He's right. As Otto says, it's worth a thousand times the price that he paid. And that's absolutely correct, because in this war that is brewing, it's

It's going to be about who supports you, how many swords do you have, how many dragons do you have. And the greens just got legitimately the biggest dragon that there is. Dun, dun, dun. Okay, so speaking of blood, I also think we should talk about, I mean, there were a couple of iconic moments in this episode, and partly I call them iconic just because they were in the trailer. So we knew we were building up to them, but it was pretty exciting to see them. One of those was Corlys saying that line. History. History.

does not remember blood. He remembers names. That conversation between him and Rainice, I thought, was really fascinating. Showed a lot of character development for both of them. And it felt sort of inevitable in some ways, I think, just from, you know, the conversation you had with Steve and just the way things are going in terms of

being ostensibly so indignant about this injustice that was done on his wife. It was fascinating to hear her call him out and be like, dude, this isn't about me. This is about what you want for you and for your kids. And I think she's right. Totally. But I also think in Corliss's mind, I think this is why this show is and this episode is so great is

Those things are all wound up together in Corliss's mind. I think she's right, but it's also more complex than that, you know? Of course. And I think when he says history doesn't remember blood, it remembers names, I think...

I think he's exactly right. You know, like, of course, historians remember, you know, who George Washington's dad was. Who was George Washington's dad? Do you remember his name? No, but that's what I mean. Corliss is saying, what is the realm going to know? The realm is going to know the names of the people directly involved in this. They're not going to care about who came from where and who did what. And,

This is the way that we get the throne and it's owed to us and it's time to get what we're owed. And it's very interesting from, from Rainice's side, because I found myself much like Harold Westerling wondering, um,

OK, where is Renise right now? Like she is openly saying, let's cast Jace, Luke and Joffrey under an even darker shadow by disinheriting them from Driftmark because we need to give Driftmark to Lena's daughter. Yeah, we need to give it to our girls who are full blooded Valerian. And we know that's the case. And I just thought I'd ask the question, you know, where do you think Renise lies? Where does her loyalty lie right now?

I think it's so complicated. I mean, partly I was fascinated that Corlys has as much allegiance as he does to the boys. I think there's a sweetness to it where, you know, the fact that he wants to stand by them. And I guess it makes sense to a certain extent because, I mean, you know, speaking of remembering names, like they are Velaryons until one of them takes the throne.

They're not Targaryens, you know? And I could see from his point of view as kind of an outsider in this world that he wants to protect these kids even if they weren't from his own son. I mean, partly that's

I could see accepting them also because that means accepting his son and his son's proclivities, right? I mean, Leonor, that's really complicated. And especially given the context of the conversation we hear between Rainier and Damon, it sounds like they tried, you know? So then they did what they had to do, arguably. So I don't know. I mean, Rainie's

I think it's so much more complicated given the fact that she could have been queen but also won't be. It seems clear that her allegiance is with her kids. I don't know where that puts green or black, though. Or her grandkids, I mean. I think this is why the...

overt alliance, the marriage between Rhaenyra and Daemon is so absolutely important. That does seem extremely offensive from like, if I were Rhaenys, I'd be pissed about that. I'd be pissed. But this puts her granddaughters, Baelin and Rhaena, squarely on team black. That's true. And I think in the grand calculus,

If we agree, and I think we do, that Renise is kind of waffling. It's unclear in the middle of this episode which side she's going to fall on. I think once that marriage is locked down and her grandchildren are directly in the firing line, the grandchildren of her blood, she's going to fall onto Team Rhaenyra Daemon, I think. I could see that. And I think that's why this marriage was so important. I just was, I'm thinking, especially in the context of them, like, doing the hippie beach wedding, literally,

literally right after the funeral is like, that's a vibe. It wasted zero time. And in the Valyrian, the ancient Valyrian rites, not the Faith of the Seven saying, hey, we are invoking our bloodline that goes back to old Valyria. Speaking of blood. Yeah, as a way to broadcast our authentic right to rule the realm together.

So should we talk about those two? We're here. Let's talk about it. You know, it's funny because I have been thinking, like, why don't they just get married? It seems like that would solve a lot of problems. Wasn't expecting it to happen, though. Got to tell you. You know, I think as the tension is building during the funeral, you see Rhaenyra looking around, looking around, looking around. Yes. And I think that moment when Daemon has the argument with Viserys and kind of stalks off after Viserys invites him to rejoin court.

And then Damon kind of goes off. And then Rhaenyra sends her boys to bed. I think she had been kind of counting heads, you know, during the funeral saying, who do I have? Who do I really have? Yeah. And I think she took that opportunity to say, I've got to take this opportunity to solidify a really important alliance for me, which is me and Damon. And I think it also doesn't hurt that there's also a lot of affection there. I was going to say, it's such a fascinating combination because I think the dialogue between

was really excellent as they were walking on the beach. They covered a lot of ground and kind of talking through where each of them was at at that precise moment. And yeah, the combination of like purely calculated strategy around this is the alliance that I need for at least half a dozen reasons. And also, I think,

I've always had a really good time with this guy and I thought he was kind of hot before and now we're age appropriate. So maybe we should give it a shot is a really fascinating one. Yeah. And as was her decrying him for for leaving King's Landing and leaving the leaving the area. I think that she has a point in that, you know, Damon, I think.

if you can use that word for Damon, honorably wanted to remove himself from the situation to kind of like not...

cast a pall over Princess Rhaenyra and complicate her life. At the same time, I think Rhaenyra has a point that she needed allies. Yeah. I mean, she says, you abandoned me. And he says, I spared you. And I think they're both right to an extent. But now they've come to a point where they need each other. They desperately need each other because Daemon is completely on the outside of court politics, is not involved at all, is basically a castaway. And Rhaenyra is

has her allies or children. Like she's got her boys and Corliss, but not a lot else. So this was a long time coming. And then clearly, I mean, the way that she kind of makes the move on him and he is almost like, come on, don't, I don't know. That was surprising. And I think lets you know that

There's a real depth of sincere emotion there. So yeah, depth of sincere emotion. Do you think they love each other? I mean, it was, you know, we haven't seen that many sex scenes in this series. We got one between the two of them in this episode. I thought there was a certain degree of romance to it. And I was curious to hear what you think of that too. I think that there, to the extent that that word applies to these characters,

to Westeros in general. Yeah, to Westeros in general. I mean, like, you know, Rhaenyra says earlier when Daemon is like, oh, it was good enough. Yeah, we were happy enough. Did you love Laena? We were happy enough. And she's like, well, that's an accomplishment on its own. I think in that context, it's clear to me that, yeah, there was some real romance, some real emotion. They both need each other, care for each other. And the moment has met the emotion of,

And it means that clearly the stakes are very high, both for their hearts and for politics writ large. Yeah, I'm fascinated to see where that goes. And well, and even their bloody kiss at the end, too. It was like, they're digging this. Yeah, I mean, they were happy. There were smiles all around. That was the happiest wedding that we had. That was as good as it gets. That's so fucked up.

It came on the heels of a funeral and a faked murder. And is incest. And is legitimately incest. And it was the happiest wedding that we've seen. We must talk about what cleared the way for this, which is the fake murder of Leonor by his lover Carl. Yeah. I...

the conversation that led to this between Rhaenyra and Laenor. You know, after the big family meeting, which Laenor was not there, Alyson's like, yeah, where's Sir Laenor? Maybe he has some opinions on this. And Rhaenyra's just like, I don't know. He shows up late and is extremely apologetic. I recommit myself to you and to strengthening our house as we prepare you for your ascension.

I will raise our sons to be princes of the realm. You deserve a husband. I found that entire speech by Laenor incredibly moving, especially the part where he, you know, they talk about how they tried to have children and couldn't do it. And Laenor says, you know, I curse the gods for making me this way. And then in what is maybe the most

heart-wrenching display of kindness ever in this world. Raniro says, I don't. You're a good man. Well, yeah, I mean, it seems like, you know, aside from the obvious flaky moments we've seen, he has shown up. And the fact that he's accepting these kids as his own, I mean, I get that that kind of protects him, too, but...

You know, there's another version where he goes against her, too, and things are a lot messier for everybody. Yeah, he has been a real partner in this kind of image that they have created. Maybe not a full partner, maybe not as dedicated as he could have been, but a real one. And she honors that and says, listen, you know, you're a rare thing, which is an honorable man who does things.

what he says he's going to do. Not a thing that happens often in this world. And so it would have been really, really ruthless had Damon and Rhaenyra just been like, now let's slit Laenor's throat. Yeah, that would have been insane. Well, and I got nervous seeing Damon in that murder cloak. I was like, oh God, is this it? This is why the adaption here is amazing. In the books, what we know is

Carl and Laenor have a fight and Carl kills Laenor and then escapes. Wow. So as far as history knows...

Landor's dead. Damn, that's awesome. And so this was a real shock. Like my jaw hit the floor. Oh, I love that. And it was an absolutely amazing moment. First of all, that it's a great send off for a character who again has tried to do the right thing all throughout. It's nice that that happened. But I just want to note

That what got us to this wonderful and really like uplifting, actually inspiring moment in this kind of, you know, whatever that means again for this world. It's wild how nice this episode turned out to be. Right. What got us there was the brutal murder of a driftmark security guard who was just clocked in and was just like on duty. Yeah. That guy...

You know, to quote Corliss, history remembers names. We will never think about that guy again. That guy just went to work thinking, yeah, I'm going to Driftmark. I'm going to just walk around the castle, make sure nothing untoward happens, you know, and and then he gets his neck snapped and gets thrown in a fireplace and no one will ever know what happened. Yeah, that's a fair point. A lot of death by fire these last couple episodes, too.

Yeah, that was... What was your reaction to the reveal that Laenor and Karl were escaping to Essos? Oh, my God. I mean, it was great. I kind of couldn't even picture it just because, like... I mean, when's the last time a Thrones show spared someone? Especially knowing that in the original text it was the way it was. Like, the...

I think it's really sweet. I think we can call it a win. It's an absolute win. And that's exciting. We don't get a lot of wins, you know? We don't get a lot of wins. Now, here's what I wonder. Laenor Velaryon is a dragon rider. See, Smoke? Right. Previously, the bond between a dragon and a rider...

as we have seen, is essentially unbreakable while the dragon rider is alive. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out because that is interesting. Can someone claim sea smoke? I mean, they need dragons right now, as we've seen. Yeah. So what happens with that? Let's just make sure to keep an eye on what happens with sea smoke going forward. Okay. That's a good little nugget to follow for sure.

So between the funeral and the funeral party on the deck, really briefly, there's a scene where we see some dragons. My dragon identification skills are extremely limited. Jason, what'd you pick up on there? That has to be Aegon's dragon, Sunfire, which he gained offscreen. And then probably Dreamfire, that is Princess Helena's dragon. And man, shouts to Princess Helena for...

Is she good to ride a dragon? I don't know. That seems like a lot. Yeah, she's extra good to ride a dragon, man. She's not impaired. I know, it just feels like a lot of destructive power. I'm stoked for that. So at the end of the episode, as the royal party is sailing back to King's Landing and...

Queen Alicent is, you know, making as nice as she can to the king. Like, oh, are you comfortable? What do you need? Sorry that I tried to kill your daughter and cut out your grandson's eye. We see three dragons flying away. So at that point, it's again, Sunfire, Dreamfire and Vhagar, the newest dragon added to Team Green. Team Green. They got a lot of dragons. They got a lot. But the other side, I think, has more.

So there's that moment where King Viserys is going to bed. Daemon has stalked off after Viserys and him have their little confrontation. Rhaenyra sends the boys to bed, clearly seeing that there's some simmering tensions here. And also she wants them out of the way so she can go talk to Daemon alone. And then as King Viserys is kind of clomping off to bed, he calls Queen Alyson, Emma. He says, I'm going to bed, Emma. Which is...

Very sad. Ugh, it's very sad. I also think we should give props to our producer, Nakia, who actually observed this and pointed it out to us, 'cause I completely missed that. It went over my head. And it's, you know, is it like, is he just super old and sad and tired? Is this a sign of further mental decline? Like, ugh. I think it's yes to all of the above, right? And I think it's another clear sign to everybody who's watching

the king that the king is losing his grip on power and it's up to whoever wants it to go out there and try and grab it while he is tottering and you know what other important interpretation is there i think too is just that he's not over emma and will never be over having lost her you know and as

I don't know. I just think that's probably important to remember in terms of like why he is still so allegiant to Rhaenyra, right? Because she is the, you know, closest thing he has to her. And so, of course, he's going to stick with her as much as he can. Yeah, it's tremendously sad. It's like what might have happened had Queen Emma lived, you know, had they not kept trying for this male heir that was never going to come, right?

It's extremely sad. It's extremely sad. And you sense also the immense regret that he has that he can't even acknowledge that

that he wedded Allison. I feel like he feels that he shouldn't have done that. That feels pretty clear to me. I don't know. This might be way too off the rails, but I wonder if... I think they would have just kept trying to have an MLA, though. Don't you? I mean, like, given what Emma had already been through physically, all the miscarriages and stillbirths, like, I think if she had survived that, they would have just, like... I think he was just so single-minded about it. I don't think he ever would have stopped trying to have... I don't think he would have, after that, been like, you know what?

let's call it. We're good. I think that's right. I mean, she put her foot down and said, we're not doing this again. I can't do it again. That's true. That said, I agree with you in that. It's not just that he, of course, wanted a male heir.

Desired it immensely had the dream about it that he saw as prophetic which is so important to Targaryens but also like the pressure Around him was immense Otto was never gonna let it go also like his small council was never gonna let it go No, everyone, you know the people around him were just we're gonna be like, where's that successor? Where's the air? Where's the air? Where is it? Where is the air?

Oh, let's talk about the kid fight. That was awful to watch. It was so intense. I mean, just literally watching children hitting each other turns out is super intense. I think, too, I mean, partly another thing that I really liked about this episode is that throughout, not even in that one specific scene, but even, you know, at the funeral, the funeral party, we're seeing the kids interacting just with each other.

And in some cases, it's because one of their parents told them to say something. But, you know, I mean, the way... Is it Bela who reaches out? Grabs Jace's hand. Yeah, that was very, very sad. Yeah, there are just a couple of moments like that where you just see them interacting with each other. And often it does feel like they're trying to reach out to each other, but...

don't know what to say or do. And then for it to kind of culminate in this just heartbreaking scene was so intense. Right after that moment, when Bela and Jace are kind of like gripping each other and they're standing there, Amon comes up and...

very clearly wants to say something... Yes. ...heartfelt and express his condolences, his sadness, and just isn't able to do it. Can't actually find the words and then just leaves. That is...

an immensely tragic moment. Well, especially because it's the moment, too, where Jace was kind of turned away by Rhaenys. So he's, like, now awkwardly standing there after having tried to reach out to some cousins, and then he sees this other cousin, and there's this moment where they could, you know, it's like, there's another version of this where those two are really close buds, and the fact that they can't be, and that that, you know, line is just cleaved so much more intensely throughout this episode is, it's devastating. Yeah.

I wonder, do you think Amon would have killed...

Luke with the rock? You think he would have done it? I don't know. I don't think I know Eamon enough. I mean, I guess probably, right? Yeah. I don't actually know. That scene, apart from being so nerve wracking and hard to watch, because again, you're watching kids just brutalize each other, is so hard to unwind like who actually is at fault. Whose fault is it? There's multiple places where everyone could have stopped. Right.

you know, Bela throws the first punch. Well, and she has every right to be pissed. She has every right to be pissed. And at the same time, I think Aemond has a really good point. Totally. Claim your dragon then. Yeah. Yeah. What are you waiting for? Yeah. Like, why are you sitting around waiting for someone to claim it? Claim your dragon. Yeah. And then I think you could credibly argue that Jace pulling that knife is such an escalation. Oh,

Oh, God. Completely. Yeah, no. You're going to kill your cousin? Like, what are you going to do? You can't do this. Yeah, no, he brought a knife to a slap fight. Yeah. And the way it culminated in that family meeting, too, I just thought it was really interesting. I mean, when Allison says, I want Lucerys Velaryon's eye, Sir Criston, get me his eye. That was another...

That was intense. And then again, a real gamble by Queen Alison, because that's a moment where, you know, King Viserys would be well within his rights to say, okay,

throw the queen in a tower and just lock her up and we'll deal with that later. Sir Kristen Cole, you were dismissed because clearly there is something going on here. Harold looks at him in that moment, like unsure of what Kristen Cole is going to do. Yeah, that's not good. Yeah. And it's with extreme hesitance that Kristen Cole says, yes, I am sworn to you, but only as your protector. And, you know, almost...

Left Unsaid is for now because you can, you just know that the time will come when Kristen will answer those orders. It's so intense. I can't believe there's only three episodes left. I know. You know that this episode was great when you're just annoyed at what everybody did, at decisions that everybody made. Because that's so, I just find myself being like, why did you do this?

When you're annoyed, but you also get why they made the decisions they did because everything is set. You know, it's all so fraught at this point, which is kind of perfect then because it's like anything could happen. Anything did happen. I completely agree. Um, let's see. Is it time for our body count? Let's do it. Was it just the one? R.I.P. that guy. Uh, listen...

Whose name history will not remember. We will not remember your name or your blood. Bad day at the office for that guy. But R.I.P. him. R.I.P. him indeed. That's our only one, right? Yeah, that's it. Pretty clean up considering how much shit went down. R.I.P. eyeball. R.I.P. eyeball. R.I.P. Amon's left eye. Right eye Amon. That's what they call him. Yeah.

Joining us today is the very talented Olivia Cooke. You may know Olivia as Emma Ducote from the wonderfully spooky thriller series Bates Motel, or Becky Sharp in the period drama miniseries Vanity Fair. But of course, you also know her as Alison Hightower in the HBO original House of the Dragon. Olivia, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thank you for having me. We're jumping ahead now 10 years, and I think out of all the characters, you're the only

And Alicent's 10 years seems to have really changed her significantly. Where are we now with her when we catch up with her? She feels like a fully fledged queen. She has the heir to the king, but she also shares that with Rhaenyra Targaryen, who she has a huge amount of resent for.

Because that resent has just snowballed over the past 10 years. She feels that Rhaenyra's unseriousness and lack of duty and courtly conduct is severely lacking and disrespectful. In her mind, the mental real estate that this resentment holds is ginormous.

One thing that I think is really interesting about Allison and Rainier's relationship, especially at this point in the story, is that it's obviously, as you're saying, I mean, it's super complicated. We've got now decades of resentment and history and frustration between the two of them. It also seems like the rift between them is so much bigger than actually themselves at this point, you know, especially now that we have like other generations of children and the way they're interacting with each other, too.

Yeah, well, they both hold completely different ideologies in terms of how to rule a kingdom. And those two do not blend. It's oil and water. And, you know, I think there's a lot of jealousy there for Alison. You're constantly having to look at someone who represents...

Something that you could never have. And that's like freedom and power. And Rhaenyra just doesn't know how to use it and continues to flaunt that in Alicent's face and bend the rules to what suits her. Rhaenyra's ruling will be really, really progressive. But Alicent firmly sits in the patriarchy where she feels that is the order of things. And that's how to rule a kingdom. Don't fix what's not broken. Yeah.

Yeah, it's fascinating because here she is a woman in power, but in so many ways she's holding up the existing power structures as opposed to trying to start anything new. Completely. She's been so indoctrinated by her father, Otto Hightower, the previous Hand to the King character.

And it's not until later episodes where Alison remotely begins to question that authority. And also, she's starting to believe that her son is the rightful heir to the throne. You know, his namesake, Aegon the Conqueror. It just feels like this is the path that history should take.

and not Rhaenyra and her conduct and her illegitimate children. That is so stark. I mean, it's so obvious. But, you know, they all live in this, like, they all live in this cloud. They're so shrouded by what's already been written in stone that they won't see the truth of the matter. We're still using the term allegedly illegitimate. Allegedly illegitimate.

Where's the silver hair? That's what I want to know. Where's the silver hair? It's a great question. It's a great question. It's quite bracing to see the relationship that Alison and Kristen Cole have now and also the anger, clearly, that is curdled within Kristen. How did that relationship develop in the intervening 10 years? So it's like when you're on set or you're at work and there's someone that over time just really gets your goat. Oh.

or does all these horrible things to you and then you find out that another co-worker also feels the same way about this person and then you're like bonded for life in this mutual hatred. So many friendships can flourish on that just one piece of commonality. That's a great way to put it. And Rhaenyra is that to them. And from that point of just such pure hatred and mutual hurt and heartbreak, things do flourish. Yeah.

It's interesting to hear you use the word heartbreak because I think that was something that I found really striking, especially in the early episodes of the series, was the intimacy between Alicent and Rhaenyra. Do you read it as potentially romantic or do you think of it as just sort of the extremely intense and almost seemingly in love relationship that a lot of teenage girls end up having with each other?

I mean all of that really because I think sometimes your first fledgling friendships are really romantic you know no matter what your sexuality is you're playing at dynamics and roles and learning how to care for another person and they feel like an extension of you and you're so codependent that when you're broken apart it feels like I remember when I went around when I was like 16

six or seven it was in the summer holidays and I got invited to my friend Katie's house and she was my best best best best friend and I went over and through the slats of the backyard door I saw that she was already playing with a girl called Alex and I involuntarily just went stupid

And like walked away back home, didn't speak to her for two weeks. It was so heartbroken that she was playing with someone else or that that person was invited before me in the paddling pool. Just absolutely devastated. And so, you know, that was the genesis of this. No, those friendships just seem so wrought with just raw emotion that you just can't, you don't have a handle on because literally your frontal lobe hasn't closed yet. Mm-hmm.

What about Alison and Viserys? Has a real kind of emotional bond developed, you know, even if it's just the co-parenting these kids?

I think so. I think she's got a genuine love for Viserys. I think a fondness and a love has really grown. But I think that's also because they have these children. But also, Alicent is almost like a primary caretaker for Viserys now in his various ailments. But I don't know if she respects him. I don't know if she thinks that he's the best ruler. I think she thinks he's too soft. And that's probably because of the way he handles his relationship with Rhaenyra and

then he's so blinded by his love for his children that he doesn't see their wrongdoings.

This is also the episode where Allison loses her shit for the first time. She is literally out for blood after the kids fight. I thought that was a really fascinating scene. I also really found the scene shortly after that where Allison is talking to Otto. Oh, wow. And she's really contrite and like, oh, man, I really shouldn't have done that. And he's like, no, girl. Good. This is what we need.

to see all along. Yeah, there you are. They're such informative scenes. Can you talk a little bit about the headspace you had to get into to act them, how you felt about the growth of the character over the course of even this one episode? I just think it's really interesting.

It just feels like she was backed into a corner for so long. She's also been emboldened by Larys and Criston Cole, her allies, who they're hermetically sealed in their disdain towards Rhaenyra and the whole regime. So when it's so obvious that Viserys is going to choose Rhaenyra and throws the threat

of that being treason for what I'm saying or what my boys have said, I think that's just when she just breaks. It's just piled on top of her for so long that I don't even think she realises she's grabbed the knife and is chasing towards Rhaenyra until she slices her. I don't think... It's just pure id at that point and adrenaline. Mm-hm.

And then, yeah, the huge amount of guilt and confusion and sorrow for what she's just done and the disgust at what she realizes that she's now capable of, which, you know, daddy loves. That's heavy. What is Alison's relationship to power? I ask because in this episode, she...

commands Kristen essentially to go across the room and cut out Luke's eye. And he says he declines and says, I'm your protector only. But you get the sense in the way that he answered that in a different context, in a different place, at a different time, he would do it. And Laris flat out says, hey, if you ever if you ever need that eye, if you ever need anything, I'm here for that. How does Alison relate to having those kind of tools at her disposal? What's her end goal?

I think originally there'd been like a willful naivety at how much power she wields with these men. And I think with Larys, when they had that discussion in episode six towards the end about Rhaenyra and my father and the current Hand, I think she's pushing boundaries. I think she's saying things and seeing what sticks with Larys.

Don't think she ever thinks he's then going to murder his family to show his loyalty or to further his position in the kingdom. I don't think she thinks he's capable of that. But of course, I think she's like, you know, seeing who she's got on side and seeing what people can do for her. And then after that, in episode seven, she realizes like, oh my God, the power that she holds and also...

I think she thinks she has the best ideas. She's learned from the best. She's learned from her father. She knows how to wield power and she's very adept at the goings on of the core and the kingdom. She's been around it since she was a baby.

Is Laris in love with Alicent? Yeah, we were talking about that with this episode because it seems kind of like at first I thought he was just trying to get in her favor and then it's like, oh, but maybe he does kind of. I don't think Laris is capable of loving anyone. Yeah. Wow.

If you can do that to your father and you can do that to your brother. Fair, fair. Yeah. Do you think Daemon loves Rhaenyra? Because he's a tricky one too, you know? I mean, he's brutal. I think Daemon idolizes Viserys. And because Rhaenyra is an extension of Viserys and represents pure Targaryen fire, I think Daemon is in love with that. But I think also Daemon gets bored easily. Yes, I think. Always on to the next. Yeah, yeah.

I love this. I wish we could do like their birth chart. Oh yeah, that would be fantastic. Whatever the version of the birth chart is in Westeros would be fantastic to know. Like Daemon's definitely an Aries. Do you think Elisend is a Virgo? Yeah, I think you're right. I think she's a Virgo.

I would love to talk about Allison as a mother because that's something, you know, we've seen for several episodes now. I mean, she had a kid pretty early on in this season, considering. Yeah. Do we see any tender moments? I mean, I think about even in early days with her and the babies just constantly crying. She just seems completely overwrought and exhausted. And then...

She ends up with these teenagers who kind of seem like monsters. Yeah. And she's so frustrated. I mean, the stakes are so high and they just don't get it. She often just seems like she literally will shake them, you know? Yeah. What's that like? What do you think?

Well, I think, you know, it's children bearing children, isn't it? I don't think she has the motherly capabilities at first. And then, you know, to have a child at, I think we said, 14. How do you become a mother when you've not got a mother yourself and no one's parenting you? And I just think that as her children grow up and as she grows up with them,

That relationship has been severed from the beginning and she's trying to bridge the gap with them. She's trying with Helena to comfort her, but Helena doesn't want to be touched and she doesn't understand why that her favorite daughter, someone who she probably longed for a daughter to try and impose like a motherly daughter relationship that she never had.

And that she has these children that just bring her so much sadness and sorrow and she feels like such a failure. And because she's got no control over it either. And so everything else in her life has to follow this like strict regimen because that's the only way she can get order in her life when, you know, she's supposed to be a parent to these children and everything that she tries to implement just ricochets off them. And the one son that does love her, Eamon, is a weirdo nightmare. So...

Yeah, he does seem a bit ominous. Yeah, like you with all of them. Yeah. I think something this series has done really beautifully is show the burden of power, but also the isolation. The fascinating juxtaposition of constantly being surrounded by people and having a lot of help, but also still being completely isolated in the most devastating way.

Yeah, and it's divide and conquer as well. You know, Rhaenyra and Alicent would have been much stronger together, but this patriarchal system was hell-bent on just going like that. No. It's a massive shame because they are the two most worthy and the two most intelligent people, I think, in the kingdom. Daemon as well, but he's just so unpredictable. It's so chaotic.

So chaotic. God, just like how it cuts to him in all those moments of just absolute chaos and he's having a great time. Yeah, he's like, good, it's happening, great, finally. Things are catching fire. I love it. You mentioned this patriarchal society that they are all ensconced in. A question that I think

people ask of me sometimes is that, you know, when I'm answering questions about this show is they'll be like, why did Alison marry Viserys then? Yeah, so she didn't have a choice. She's 14. She didn't have a choice. No way. And...

at that point she really trusts her dad and she thinks her dad's looking out for her and I'm sure it was sold to her like who doesn't want to be queen right you'll be queen you'll go down the annals of history like this is amazing queen Alison Hightower like what that would give our family name yeah so yeah I mean probably was sold to her as the best option right for a woman I was gonna say I mean he was a

a pretty kind husband. He is a pretty kind husband to her, considering how...

that could have gone for her, you know? Absolutely. I know it's pretty slim pickings though, isn't it? Oh, yeah. No, it's not. I was saying the other day, like, I would definitely choose Hinge over Westeros. For sure. You know? Yeah, it's like, oh, you know, you fall teen, but, you know, he's not bad. Yeah, no, it's all bad. It's all bad. I would love to talk a little bit about your relationship with Emma, who plays Rhaenyra, because I know...

I know each of you did not speak to the actors who played the younger versions of yourselves, but it seemed like you and Emma really did have a strong bond. And we actually talked to Miguel recently and he talked about like a horseback riding lesson or something. Yeah, I have to, I must put that online because it is hysterical. Oh, the video? We

Yes, please. Yeah. So we just found out that all the boys were getting to go on these bloody horse riding lessons. And we were like, we want to go on the horse riding lessons. Even though, I mean, Emma rides a dragon and I sit in a carriage. But so we're just like, if the boys are having it, we want it as well. I was given the tallest, thickest horse called Dume. Yeah.

Emma was killing themselves laughing. I couldn't lift my leg up to get in the stirrups. And I was just like, my jeans are too tight. My jeans are too tight. They had to give me a step up, like a little green step up that they were like, don't worry, we'll CGI it out. And even when I was on the step up, I couldn't do it. I was just, I was so immediately humbled. What happened? Did you need like a hoist or something? Yeah, it was so embarrassing. So embarrassing. And then the, our teacher was like, oh, this is great. Definitely show Miguel. And I was like, I'm never getting on a horse in this show. Right.

It was awful. And then Emma's so just great at everything anyway. Got up first time, you know, one with the horse. Really annoying. I mean, that does feel like very true to Alice Centenarian era in some ways, right? It's sort of like that is exactly what would have happened to each of those characters. Yeah, it was great. Also, like, Emma and I didn't really know each other that well at that point. Yeah, that's cool. It was very, it was really bonding for sure.

But I love Emma. I love them so much. I'm so glad it's them. And it's been wonderful going through all this together. That's really cool. And it's not like we didn't speak to Emily and Millie. I just want to clarify. Oh, okay. Like we blanked them in the corridor. We didn't speak about the characters. You didn't like trade notes? No. Okay, that's a fair distinction. I appreciate that. Yeah, I don't know. It felt weird to be like, by the way, I'm doing this, so you should follow through. Just so you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, and the thing is, it's 10 years. 10 years. Yeah. You're different people. So different. It makes sense.

So without saying anything spoilery, because I have no idea what happens and would love to keep it that way. Is there something about Alison and her character development over the next three episodes that you're especially excited for viewers to see? I think Alison is trying to do what she thinks is the best and most morally sound thing

for her particular ideologies of how a kingdom should be run. And so with that, since the attack, she's been trying to be the consummate queen and be as respectful to Rhaenyra and Daemon as well. And in her own ways, trying to make amends until that's no longer a viable option.

Yeah, I mean, the guilt and the duty and the obligation and also the frustration that, I mean, it all makes total sense. I'm really curious to see where it goes for sure. Yeah, and Rhaenyra and Alicent both are trying to put Viserys first in this instance. And for the sake of him trying to rebond a broken family.

And what's amazing about Fire and Blood is that, you know, we've got all these differing accounts of what happened. And Ryan and Miguel have really been able to, like, flesh the fuck out of whatever they wanted. And it's so, so exciting. Because it's just, you know, it's Game of Thrones. Like, in the book, it might be a bit more black and white, but it's just not in reality. As a book reader, I've been amazed at

the amount of surprises and context and rich color that has been added by the show. It's been wonderful. There's been real jaw-dropping moments, again, even having read the book, where

You're like, oh, that's what really happened. Wow. Yeah, because I feel like, I mean, I'm incredibly biased, but I think they both supplement each other quite well. It's really fun. I've been going back to the book because of season two and just refreshing my mind with it all. And I'm just like, oh, yeah, like it's just like reading someone's diary. It's great. One great example with regards to Alicent is,

History, unsurprisingly, treats Alicent as this vindictive, jealous, jilted girl and then woman. And in the show, we see her generosity always and her friendship towards Rhaenyra, especially early on, and how that turned into the feelings that we then see when they're adults. It's very, very rich and amazing. And it makes you look at the text with a different eye.

That's it, because something has to happen. People aren't born having these feelings of hurt and anger, and I think that's what they've done brilliantly in the series. You just see why she cracks and why that relationship completely fractures. Emma puts it brilliantly, and I wish Emma was here because they're so eloquent and they're much better at this than I am, but you have to have a love that you can set fire to. Oof. Because without that, it doesn't make sense.

That's beautiful. That was Emma. That was all Emma. Well, yeah, I mean, I do think and not having read the books, but it still seems to me that Alison, I mean, all the characters, as to your point in this series, are super complicated. We're living in a lot of gray area. But I think Alison is rendered really compassionately. You know, it's easy to see how she ended up in the situation she's in and how utterly complicated all of it is for her. Yeah. It's like, you know,

I know these two characters get compared to each other a lot, and I do think they're very different, but Cersei, not a very nice person. Yeah, she seems a bit more unhinged, at least so far. But she loved her children. She did. So much. And that motherly instinct, I think we can all really relate to, or that instinct to nurture, no matter who it is. We can all tap into that and we can see the humanity there. There has to be humanity in these characters, otherwise it doesn't feel right.

Yeah, I think that's very true. Can Alison see in Rhaenyra a mother as well? Is she able to say, even though she obviously has very strong feelings about her children personally, can she see, oh, you know what, Rhaenyra is a good mom. She loves her kids. I think that annoys her, ultimately. I think she's the mother that Alison wishes she could be.

I don't think there's empathy there. I think that is just another cause for Alison's resentment. Because again, it's something that she's doing better than Alison ever could. Or something that she's just naturally gifted at and takes completely for granted. That's so intense. I really appreciate your time and thoughtfulness. I thought this was a really lovely conversation. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. I got to see this big chunky horse. I need to see him.

Do you want to ride him or you just want to see the video? I'd like to meet him. I'd like to pat him on the flank. Probably too big for me to ride, but I would like to see the horse. Jason, I wonder if you and I need to go horseback riding. I'm down. Is that like a bonding activity that we should? I love to don the spurs. Well, gosh, that was a fun conversation with Olivia. So charming and really need to find out more about this horse. Absolutely. But that's it for this episode.

Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night when we discuss House of the Dragon Episode 8 with another member of the House of the Dragon crew. And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK.

And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. This podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stiller. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.