House of the Dragon: Ep. 9 “The Green Council”
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In an hour you will be king. And my father never wanted this because he didn't like me. Your grandfather the Hand will try to impress on you that Rhaenyra should be put to the sword. You must reject this council. We must not rule with cruelty and callousness. For all her fault she is your sister, your father's daughter. Do you love me? You imbecile.

She should have said, oh, actually, no, hold on. I think I misheard Viserys in his death rattle. He said Aemond. Yeah. Sorry. The other son. Aemond. Aemond. Aemond the Conqueror. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. Aegon is like on the carriage ride to go get Crown King. Oh my God. Daddy like me? Daddy like me? Shut up. She's like, you imbecile.

Slap him one more time, Allison. I'm not for that, but slap him one more time. Oh, that guy. Wow. The worst. So glad he's king. Yeah. It's going to be harder for him to go to his child fight club now in secret. God, this whole. Wow. There's a lot to unpack in this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get into it.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd Out podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everybody, whether you're an OG Thrones watcher or you are just starting your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon.

Long live the king. One more episode left, Greta. This king. I have so many very strong opinions and I'm looking forward to getting into with you. But I mean, yeah, I can't believe that we only have one episode left. What the hell, dude? Very, very excited. TLDR. Egg on his bed. Yes. Yes. So we're going to talk about that and much more. We're also going to have a conversation later in this episode with director Claire Kilmer. I'm super excited about that, too.

This episode is the opening moves, right? The opening moves...

to grab the throne. Initial reactions. What's your first reaction on this ep? The penultimate episode of season one. The penultimate episode. It's funny to think of it as opening moves because in a way, I feel like the entire board was just upended. You know what I mean? It's like, where do we... Like, the absolute chaos, especially once, like, by the time we get to the end of this episode, is just like, fuck yes, I have no idea what's going to happen and I am here for it. I absolutely feel the same way. And it is...

A fully empowered and vigorous Alice in Hightower is a sight to see. And hopefully it's not too late. Yeah, I'm super curious to see how all that plays out. I mean, there's just a bunch to discuss. But before we dive in, you want to give us our recap? Sure.

News of Viserys's death begins to spread. Otto calls the small council to decide the next course of action, which includes getting rid of as many Rhaenyra loyalists as quickly as possible. Master of Coin, Lyman Beesbury, is the first to go. Sad. Queen Alicent is shocked to realize her father has been plotting all along to usurp the throne. Meanwhile, Aegon is nowhere to be found. Two teams fan out across the city to find him, one working for Otto, the other working for Alicent.

Team Queen manages to nab the prince and at a very, very gross and troubling meeting with Laris, Misaria's spy network is laid bare like feet. Now in control, Alicent moves to have Aegon crowned quickly with lots of witnesses, after which she wants the new king to offer realistic terms to Rhaenyra so that they can avoid war. At the hastily...

organized ceremony at the dragon pit. It's going smoothly until all of a sudden, Princess Rhaenys, who escaped the Red Keep minutes before, bursts from the floor of the building on the back of her dragon, Maelys. Oh my God. She could have ended it. She could have just killed them all, you mean? She could have killed them all and said, Rhaenyra, here it is on a silver platter. Give me everything I want because I have delivered to you...

your kingdom, and I have in one fell swoop rooted out all of the traitors who are trying to seize it from me. That's true. They were all on that stage. She doesn't do that. And in fact, when Alicent makes her pitch earlier in the episode, when she's being held prisoner in the Red Keep. If it's drift, Mark, you want, you should have it. For you and your granddaughters to pass on as you see fit. You are wiser than I believed you to be. A true queen counts the cost to her people.

Rainice says it's a good pitch. You're smart. But what about you? What if you took it? And she seemed much more invigorated by that potentiality. Absolutely. So I think while it seems as if Rainice has declared which side she's on, I think it's there's still a lot of wiggle room there. What do you think? That's interesting. I mean, I could see that there would have been more wiggle room before Allison did everything she could to make sure that her potential

who is inept at best, became king, you know? I mean, it would have been so much fun to see a power grab at some point. I kept kind of waiting for it. It was also like, oh, is he just gonna kill himself with this dagger? Like, is that gonna solve this problem? There were just...

so many opportunities for alicent to actually take charge and i think there's still potential for her to do it but the fact that she hasn't yet does bum me out because i you know i mean we've talked about this like she has so much internalized misogyny oh and she seems so much more aware of it in this episode than she has in the past or at least willing to confront people about it but there's still such a long way to go for alicent you know thinking back on rainice's

comment that Alison doesn't want to free herself from her prison. I'm paraphrasing now. She wants to just build a window into it. I was struck by as Alison flexed her authority in certain conversations, notably with her son in that carriage ride with Otto and,

with Larys even, and even in the small council scene to open the episode, that every time she did so, the men she was speaking to immediately shifted it to some other more womanly in their minds context that they are more comfortable with. She's grabbed Aegon, right? Her team has seized Aegon. She's now telling her father, My son will be anointed tomorrow at dawn. The whole of King's Landing must witness his ascent.

My son will take the crown of his namesake, the Conqueror, and carry Blackfyre his sword. Let the people remember the ancient strength of House Targaryen. And Otto doesn't say, "Yes, Your Grace," he just says, "You look so much like your mother in certain lights."

That was the point in my notes where I wrote, man, Otto's a cunt. What a fucking asshole. And it's the same thing with Egon in the carriage ride. She's telling him, listen, here's what you have to do. You don't understand the work that has gone into this today. People have died. And then he's just like, mommy, do you like me? Do you want me to be? It's like...

And this just happens over and over again. The conversation with Laris is a similar one. Yeah, she's just surrounded by... That was another thing I wrote towards the end of this episode. It was just like, man, fuck all these dudes. Like, all...

All of these men. And, you know, that's not to say the women are perfect by any stretch, but it's just like, man. It's notable to me that both Rhaenys and Mysaria in different ways are proposing something truly revolutionary and radical. Yes, especially Mysaria. She's really good. Well, in both cases, you're right.

Yeah, Misaria is flat out saying people power, power flows from the people. You need to take that into account. And I want a complete upending of the power structure in King's Landing. There is no power but what the people allow you to take.

And Renice is saying, hey, what about you? You seize power. I back you. It's a women's alliance. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe there's a role for Rhaenyra here. Like, and we run the entire thing that, you know, that was maybe left unsaid. But really proposing something revolutionary. And Alicent just, you know, these are her opening moves. This is the first time she's made moves like this, really. And she, as you said, is.

The structure of this world is so internalized in her that she can only barely begin to grasp the potential here if she wanted to take power in this moment. Well, I think also it's worth noting that for her to take power, would she have had to kill her son? And she even has that, what was that line about like,

is it weakness to not want to kill people? You know, I think there is that layer to her also where she has all these complicated relationships and to take the power that she is perfectly qualified to take, you know, at what cost would she have to take that is another very intense question. Well,

Aegon doesn't want it. And I think Aemond is kind of the one, if in a alternate universe where Alicent says, I'm seizing it with the backing of Rhaenys and potentially Rhaenyra. I think that one Rhaenyra is an issue that would need to be grappled with, co-rule, like how would that work? Yeah. But in terms of her family, I think Aegon would be happy to just go away and

Aemond would be the one to worry about because he'd be like, wait a second. I actually have been studying for this my whole life. I'm qualified for this. I'm qualified. And he's right. And then I don't see any, you know, version of that alternate reality that doesn't include Otto in a deep, dark dungeon somewhere forever. And the other thing is, I mean, really at this moment, Alicent's play is Viserys said it was Aegon, you know? Right. That's the best argument she can make for upending anything. Yeah.

And here we are. Let's talk about that for a second because, man, Otto reaches for that like a gold nugget in the stream. Mm-hmm.

And Lyman Beesbury is 100% right. So let me get this straight. The king for decades has steadfastly refused, refused to put aside his daughter, his picked heir, Rhaenyra. Yeah. I will not believe that he said this on his deathbed alone with only the boy's mother as a witness. This is seizure. This is theft.

give me a break. And yet this is like the singular slender stone upon which the kingdom of Aegon the second is going to be built. And it's really no matter, like if you're a team, Alison supporter, you're,

you at least must admit that while they are right that the realm certainly was not happy to support Rhaenyra, perhaps, that this is treachery. This is treason. Yes. So do you think Alicent said it because she honestly believes that's what Viserys said? Or do you think she said it because it was a thing she could easily grasp at to shift power dynamics in her and her family's favor? Yeah.

It's a good question. I think she really believes that is what her husband meant. Yeah. Are there numerous Agons in the history of the Targaryen family that could have... Which Agon, babe? I know you're really sick, but could you specify which one before you die? I mean, there's two that are running around right now. But I think she sincerely believes that. Yeah, yeah. What do you think? I think so, too, though it did seem, especially initially, like...

It's just such a convenient thing to say when you realize that no one else talked to him and very few people even know that he's dead yet. And here's an opportunity to put some stuff in play that definitely wasn't in play yesterday, you know? It was interesting to see...

You know, Lyman Beesbury made a strong point before his head was jammed down onto his little ball there. Everybody swore 20 years ago, 400 years ago, two weeks ago. If the entire structure of the realm depends on people keeping their word, there's no contracts in this world. Then we did say it, right? It doesn't matter if some of the lords have died since then. Like you kind of have to don't we have to kind of keep that in?

And not to mention, there's no way Rhaenyra says, oh, the king changed his mind? Okay, good. And the people that support, yeah, that's not going to work. It's interesting, too, to watch Ser Harald. What did you make of Ser Harald's

to throw off his cloak and clearly a decision that he was grappling with throughout this entire meeting. Yeah, yeah. It's funny because, I mean, the bar is so low in Westeros that, like, any morsel of integrity I find so exciting because it's like, oh my God,

God, look at them, like, standing up, resting on their principles, you know? It's like, well, thank goodness. And of course, you see what it gets you, you know, especially in the case of Beesbury. It's like, oh no, you just get your head smashed in by, like, an extremely volatile Kristen Cole. Like, okay, great. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Did Sir Kristen Cole seem more faithful to you than he has in past episodes? I think this, I'm just assuming here, is Allison's information.

her rededication to the faith. Right. The way he says when Amon is being a little crass and the way he's speaking about the sex workers of King's Landing, he says, you know, that women are the very image of the mother, something to that effect. You shouldn't speak about them that way. This is the same man who called Rhaenyra a cunt a few episodes back. That was like 10 years ago now. Well, you know, this is growth maybe, right? You can argue that's what it means to develop morals, though he also killed Beesbury without a doubt.

single bit of... He did, which leads me to ask you, does Kristen feel a little bit unhinged to you? Yes. I mean, do you think he intended to kill Baysbury or do you think he intended... Because he just yells, sit down, I think, in that scene. I mean, obviously, he's a lot stronger than this extremely old man, but I don't know. Partly the way I read that was like, is Kristen Cole someone you want? Obviously, you want him on your team, but is he a wild card or is he...

under Allison's control. I think he's nominally under her control, but to your point, the fact that he killed Beesbury by accident is part of what leads me to say this guy's unhinged, right? Yeah, it seems problematic. Yeah, like if he wanted to kill Beesbury, then he should have done that. But the fact that it seemed like this is just this kind of volcanic explosion of this long suppressed anger that led to this leads me to feel like, gosh, this guy, what's he going to do?

in the days to come. Right. Well, and especially this is not the first time he's lost his shit and killed somebody, right? Yeah. And now as Lord Commander, we would assume, right, after this, in the days to come, as Alicent, you know, decreed to Otto, as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you've got to think...

that that organization is about to become a lot more radical, a lot more directly involved in the political affairs of the realm. And certainly if Cole's leadership, if we can glean anything from his actions about like what his leadership is going to be, I think very, very aggressive.

I do think that Cole is in love with Alicent. It does seem that his devotion is, yeah. Or at least thinks about her as, you know, the perfect human being, the perfect woman, the most chaste and honorable and noble and woman who is worthy of his loyalty and who very, very clearly he will kill for. I mean, Sir Harold is like, stand down. I'm your Lord Commander. And he's like,

Like he didn't do it until the queen said, you know, just it's fine. Kristen, go ahead. Stand down. So messy. It's a mess.

Lord Caswell got strung up for trying to pass word. Yeah. I do think, speaking of passing word, I think the information economy of this episode was really interesting. And it's often a thing throughout Thrones, like it's a pretty, you know, common theme, I would say. But I think especially in this episode and especially in the first couple minutes, like, okay, who knows that he's dead? Who do we need to lock down at this point? Was really fascinating to watch. Yeah.

I'm not sure how many people picked up on this, but when Talia, the handmaiden, Alison's handmaiden, who is in the pay of Misaria...

Finds out. She then tells the queen things begin to, you know, swing into motion. And then we see Talia lighting the candles in a very specific way. And then we see that from one surmises the vantage point of wherever Misaria HQ is giving us an idea about how Talia has been signaling and communicating with her paymaster Misaria the White Worm.

That's awesome. I'm also happy to hear you mention just point of view with camera because I thought the direction and the camera work in this episode was really interesting because especially in the early scenes, it felt very much as if we were looking in on spaces that we maybe weren't supposed to see. Did you get that sense too? Oh, absolutely. You know, we're so used to seeing the throne room and these other areas in the Red Keep, right?

in the midst of the business day. And it's kind of wide shots, you know? Yeah. Here we are seeing them in an intimate way. You know, it's kind of like a peek behind the curtain. I found that really affecting and it felt like the calm before the storm. I also found myself thinking about the information economy. Who is this boy? Right? I mean, he's the kid who like changes his...

whatever weird, what's the pee bucket called? The chamber pot. The chamber pot. There we go. Pee bucket. Yeah. The royal pee bucket. My lady, I went to empty the royal pee bucket and I found the king cold and dead.

Listen, we always understood that Otto was a ruthless fellow. Oh, my God. Yes. That scene is just like, oh, we're not fucking around anymore. Not fucking around. Yeah. First of all, Alison's being dumbstruck at realizing. Am I to understand that members of the small council have been planning secretly to install my son without me? My queen, there was no need to sully you with darkling schemes.

But when Otto is basically like, hey, Sir Harold, take a few picked guys, go to Dragonstone and kill everyone. Yeah. That was a bone chilling moment when you realized what he is about and what these names that he is collecting, the fate that they are going to meet. Well, in the whole nobody leaves situation, too, you know, was just the stakes in that room were really intense. And it was I just thought that was a really great scene. Same. Same.

It feels like a real missed opportunity for Misaria here because I can't help but morally support her crusade. Let's end systemic child abuse in the capital. That seems like a very worthy thing to do. Pretty legit. But the concept of collateral, I think, has never occurred to her because you can't just give up the king. Mm.

Without any kind of assurance that Otto is going to follow through. Because when she says, you know, power flows from the people, paraphrasing now again, he laughs in her face and says, oh, yeah, no, no, no, no. I will remember that it was you who seized the prince and then handed him back. Don't worry, I'll remember.

You know, that felt like, okay, wait, wait, the deal's off. I'm not giving it back right now. But then what do you, I mean, if you want the deal, how does the collateral work? You know, I mean, to your point, there are no contracts in this world, right? It's like what...

She's using a bargaining chip as best she has, I think. Unless it's like release all the children right this second, I guess. Yeah, I guess give me the younger of Egon and Helena's kids as collateral. I promise I'll raise them in safety and security unlike the things that go on in the capital. You know, usually in this world, you know, that's the way they do it is you take some sort of hostage. Sure, that's true. That's very true. I think about like Theon Greyjoy. Yeah. So is

Is there a version of this episode, you think, that's actually like a buddy cop Easter egg hunt situation with Eric and Eric just sort of like traipsing around town? A and E. Looking for the Easter bunny or something? Yeah. I found it fascinating to kind of like try and unpack which side. First of all, who was who? Eric or Eric. And I have to, you know, give props to Otto for...

having the confidence to say sir eric and be right i guess it's 50 50 it's a coin flip yeah there you go but it really seems as if sir eric who was sworn to prince agon right having the benefit of that closeness is the one who is like not this guy we can't do this i gotta spring renees this guy sucks we can't let him seize power

When Eric and Eric arrive at the horrific children's fight club. Oh, my God. They see a bastard who I guess we were to assume is one of Aegon's or some other Targaryen bastard. That was horrendous. Oh, my God. And the teeth and the nails. It's just like, oh, my God. Oh.

Oh, my God. It's horrible. And I think also, you know, as we start counting dragons now, we've gotten to the point clearly Alicent is thinking about it and Otto is thinking about it. Who has the dragons? Who has the most? There's also the issue of who's going to ride them because, you know, we've established and it's at least in this world, the hypothesis is that

You have to have Targaryen blood somehow to ride them. Right. So I wonder if these bastards, which we now know are out there, are going to come into play at some point. I hate that. Just what we need. More of Aegon's seed just thriving. Please. This guy is the worst. Absolutely. Absolutely. But, you know, I can't imagine a world in which he is competent enough.

and emerges from what is to happen in an unscathed way, this guy is a mess. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess maybe there's the argument of like, obviously the kingdom is not thriving. So maybe just a real piece of shit in there is just going to, is going to move along the revolution in just the way we need. Um,

Helena, clearly a dragon dreamer, clearly, you know, touched by this Targaryen gift of predestination, although no one seems to be listening to her. And I think her beast beneath the boards prophecy clearly came to pass with Rhaenys absolutely bursting from beneath the boards to upend the coronation. Such exquisite chaos. Did no one think about this? Like, what about the sept? Is there no other place? Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good question. Did you... I made note of the other thing Helena said, and I wondered if it was also prophecy or just a very vague statement. She said, "...it is our fate to cradle what is given to another. If one possesses a thing, the other will take it away."

Do you think that's just about the crown or do you know a thing that you can't tell us? It is, I think, clearly quite astute analysis of the current political climate in Westeros and maybe the current political climate in Westeros all the time, not just in this era. I also think that it could reflect

refer to something that will happen. I'll just say that. Dun, dun, dun. Yeah. So speaking of things I don't want to talk about. Sure. Is it time to get into this whole foot situation? Yes, let's get into it. We've been putting it off as long as... I just want to say as a book reader again, and I've said this in previous episodes, one of the things the fictional historians, Eustace, you know, Munkin, Mushroom and others, note throughout the books is that, gosh,

What makes Laris tick? Nobody knows. Historians will be debating what motivates Lord Laris Strong for generations. Well, folks, we have an answer. And it's icky. It's not good. I think we both want to be really careful not to kinkshank over the course of this conversation because to each their own. Right. Respect. Your Grace. The hour is late, Lord Laris. I have found out something you should know.

How do you even broach this with the queen who could have your head off at any time? I find myself wondering, one, how that happens. And two, you know, it's clear. Listen, again, don't want to kink shame. You know, any successful relationship with a kink, I think, requires...

consensual partners. And it's clear that Allison's not into it. Whatever you want to say. No, I know. And that's the part that really bums me out is like, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting to unpack the power dynamic at play with that one, because obviously she's getting information. Obviously she's not putting herself in an unsafe situation. Did I need to see his hand down his pants? For sure. No, no,

Just in case there was any doubt about what was going on here. I know, like, way to, like, they really doubled down on that. It was, you know, I don't know. But, like, he's not touching her.

But it's also just like, woof. I think to your point and to Rhaenys' broader point about how internalized the system is in her, Alicent could just say, you're going to tell me what I need to know because I allow you to do everything that you're doing. I allow you to be Lord of Harrenhal. I allow you to live. Yeah, right. I allow you to walk around in general because I can have...

Your fingers chopped off the one by one if I wanted to do that. Oh, my God. Yeah. But instead, because, again, that this system is so internalized and she's paying with the coin that she believes that she can pay with. Yeah. Because she can absolutely take it to another level with Laris. She could be like, you're just going to tell me because. Yeah. Guess what? Like I can tell my father. I could tell Sir Christian Cole. He'll do it. He'll kill you. No questions asked.

Oh, my God. No questions asked. Yeah, it is interesting to think that this obviously was not the first time this has happened. I mean, Otto says... You've spent many hours with the Queen of Leeds. Mm-hmm. When Laris says to Otto... There's no reason those hours cannot in the end benefit you.

I found myself wondering, what the fuck does he mean by that on my third watch after understanding what time with the queen meant? You know, like... I'm just rewinding through that one scene over and over. What the hell does that mean, Laris? Well, I think it means that they're all on team patriarchy, right? And, like, no one's encouraging her to have her own agency. They're just all using her as a pawn for the same outcome, essentially.

So Laris then tells the queen about Missaria. Yeah, what does he say? What is the other content of that scene? So he tells her about Missaria and then he suggests a course of action, which is we need to take out this network. Mm-hmm.

One, I wonder if we're going to find out that they were indeed successful. You know, this is House of the Dragon. We did not see a body. We only saw a flaming, a burning house. So this leads me to wonder if Miss Aria is not still alive. Sure. And then secondarily, thinking back to Talia signaling to Miss Aria with the candles. Oh, right. Is word already out? I don't know.

Otto was like, shut the door, round up the household staff. No one can know. That message went. So where did it go beyond Misaria is my question. That is a great question. Well, and we saw Otto writing some letters too. I mean, this is another great question for Westeros TMZ, right? It's like, how's the network going? I could also see a world where Laris kills Misaria and just takes over the network for himself as opposed to actually eliminating the network, right?

Right. I mean, doesn't that seem like the exact sort of thing that he would just thrive on? I think that you're absolutely right. Certainly, like, that's competition. Right. Laris would not be keen to allow a kind of competing whisper network to be up and running in the Capitol. I'm sure he would like to co-opt that. That's a great point. The structure of this episode is...

is fascinating to me because it's the opening moves from one side. Yes. We have no idea how Raniere is going to react to all of this. Yeah. But we can assume it's going to be poorly because even, you know, Alison just pitching, listen, let's make her a good deal so she can accept it without shame and we can avert all this. At the same time, while that is the best offer on the table, that offer on the table is still

Aegon is king. And I think there's no world in which Rhaenyra, even if you say, okay, well, you can be hand of the king. What about that? Like you can, you know, and you'll be part of court and you and Daemon can come here and be part of the small council and you can rule and help influence this. And I'll be there too. No, she's scorned. I appreciate Alicent's efforts, but I think that there's no way we come back from this, right? Yeah.

without war. Yeah, it kind of shocks me that Alyson didn't think through that more when she said the king said Aegon should be king. But I guess what we see pretty clearly is that Otto was planning on a coup regardless of what Viserys' last words may or may not have been. Oh, right away. So we would have had the same outcome, you know? Right away. I feel badly for the unlucky lords and ladies who just happened to be in King's Landing and were called to the meeting where it's kind of like...

hey, right now, where do you stand on this? And if the answer is the one I don't like, then potentially you are strung up in the courtyard. Yeah, it's not a good sign for democracy. That's a very bad sign for democracy. Very clear we do not have a First Amendment in this entire situation. That last moment with Renise and her dragon roaring in everyone's face. Yes.

First of all, that seems like a bad sign, right? For a coronation. Bad way to start the rain. Well, yeah, a bunch of people are dead in that room. At the very least. Yeah. Did you figure out how to count those for a death count, by the way? It would seem to be whoever was standing over death.

The impact zone bought it. Oh, my God. 100% they are done. Yeah. I was kind of surprised it wasn't Rhaenyra, but I guess the question is whether or not they even know yet what happened and is happening in King's Landing. It's possible that Miss Arya sent a raven out or some other person got some message out, but it's also possible that they have no idea right now. Yeah. Rhaenys, I think we will be unpacking her actions in that moment for a while. ♪

To me, it felt like she's still leaving it open. Like, okay. Interesting. I did not appreciate being taken prisoner.

But if you really want to parse it thinly, as, you know, Master of Law's Jasper Wilde would love to find a loophole in this, I think you could argue that she hasn't really declared yet. I mean, she definitely didn't kill them outright, which she certainly could have. She could have. And if she was Team Rhaenyra, she just would have, right? Well, the thing is, she is definitely questioning the validity of the coronation, I think.

Right? Because, I mean, she also could have waited until the end of that ceremony and everybody emptied out and then gotten on her dragon and gone home. The fact that she fucked it up as much as she did, to me, seems at least like a statement that this whole thing is a racket. But I suppose that's not necessarily...

obviously in favor of Rhaenyra. It could just be more against Aegon, which I support. Yeah. Because Aegon's the worst. It felt to me, being a sports fan, kind of like a free agency play. Yes, she's declared that she is not a fan of the proceedings up to this point, but it seemed to me that she is saying, hey, maybe sweeten the pot a little bit because what you're asking me to give you is everything. Yeah.

So my price is going to be much higher than the one that you offered me privately in that room. It's going to be more, whatever that means. And to make the stand that she did with the dragon, which is the thing that Alicent expressed interest in. Wow.

I mean, that's all the leverage right there. You know, Alicent said, hey, if we have you and we have your dragon, Rhaenyra will think, at least think twice about attacking because they do have more dragons. You know, we have Vhagar, who is the biggest, but still, there's a deficit here. Aegon's dragon is very young. Helaena's also, they have more mature dragons. So if you come over...

She'll think twice about it. But if you don't, why wouldn't Rhaenyra fulfill the promise that she made in friendship at the end of the previous episode? Right, right before she left. Right before she left, where she said, I will return on Dragomech. I think that there's a great chance now that Rhaenyra fulfills that promise and does so, you know, in anger. Dun, dun, dun. I am so excited for episode 10. Oh my God. This just set up so much.

How do you think it compared to other penultimate Thrones episodes? Because I feel like, you know, in terms of a series arc, there is a tradition of how they often have gone. Obviously, this is a different show. Just curious what you thought. It went in a different way often than what we are kind of primed to expect. And again, a different show, but...

No shocking decapitation. No massive battle. Yeah. Very little carnage, considering. Yeah, but still an amazing and quite...

shocking surprise moment when Maylis bursts out from beneath the floor there. I mean, it was really a truly, truly startling moment. And yeah, you just feel like we're on the roller coaster now and it is heading straight down. What about you? How did you feel about it for a penultimate episode?

I thought it was great. I think what we come to expect with an episode like this, and I think it totally fulfilled, and I think it fits into the wedding episode to episode five, where it's kind of like this ratcheting of tension, and you keep thinking, oh, this is the thing, you know? And I remember thinking that with, like, Aegon holding the dagger. Yeah.

And, you know, here he is throughout this entire episode talking about how much he does not want to be king. Is he going to end it for himself so that he, you know, and then what's Alicent going to do when they get to the, you know, like just thinking through all of these different possibilities and this ratcheting of tension and then to have it

seemingly go pretty well, actually, when he takes out his sword and everyone's cheering, which seemed really unexpected. And then it's sort of like, oh, maybe we just have a nice lull. And then this insane explosion is like, oh, fuck, yes, here it is, you know? Our super producer, Kia, is an avowed fan of Cersei Lannister, who is a monster in many ways. But I have to say, you know, thinking about this episode...

Cersei had it right in that she just did it. Mm.

Everyone was expecting her to, you know, be again because of that, the patriarchal system that they're in was expecting her to make moves in certain ways to not escalate the way a man would escalate to not like immediately just be like, OK, fine, put you to death. That's it. And I'll move on with my life and do the thing that I want to do. Right. But Cersei did that. She decided, OK, here's the price that needs to be paid if I want to be queen.

And I'm just going to do it. And I find myself like measuring Alison's, you know, sincerely good hearted attempt to influence power here. It was strangely negatively with regards to the way Cersei would have done it. Like if, if Alison wants to do the thing that she wants to do, I mean, it's sad to say, but that probably means your dad in prison. That means Larys with his head cut off.

That means Jasper Wilde immediately to the wall, as you said. That means Kristen Cole is your right-hand assassination man, and let's really seize this thing and either rule through Aegon or make him...

step down in favor of you. But Allison's too nice to do that, and here we are. Well, it reminds me again of that quote Allison says when she's talking to Otto about reluctance to murder is not a weakness. I don't know, though. I mean, I think the other thing to take into consideration with Allison, though, is...

I think she still doesn't know what she wants. I think she has spent so much of her life being forced into these different positions and maintaining relationships with odious bros. I think you're 100% right. You know, and we've talked about, too, like, as much power as she has, she has no power at all, you know? So...

And I don't know if you could say the same about... Cersei had a lot more power, I think. And maybe it's the 170 years between the shows. Maybe that's the progression away from patriarchy that we get to see. But yeah, I understand the comparison. I think in a lot of ways it is really good. But yeah, I think Alicent has just been so... She's never gotten to do anything for herself. You're right. And I think there's a very telling moment where...

She realizes the small council has been meeting. Yeah. She understands now that her father has been moving around like a pawn and she immediately objects. Yeah. And so master of ships, Tylan Lannister says, okay, your grace, what do you want to do? And she just doesn't,

have an inkling in that moment. And to be fair to her, she's just learning about all of this. And she's been kept in the dark for essentially her whole life. But yes, you're exactly right. She's just kind of over the course of this episode beginning to form an idea about what she would do now that she is in somewhat of the driver's seat. And it's not even the driver's seat, but I'm really curious. I mean, I love the idea of a

self-actualized Alicent who gives no fucks about anybody but herself. Yes. I don't know how many people die in that version.

But I would watch it. You know, I mean, as Otto says at one point, you know, there's no ruler, he says king, who has never had to sacrifice a few lives along the way. Right. And, you know, you're absolutely right. Some people in any version of this where Alicent rules or whoever, some people would have to be sacrificed along the way. And it's, I think, a real credit to Alicent that she doesn't want to do that. You know, she says again and again, Viserys loved his daughter. I don't want to just murder her.

and her family and her children because that's how we cement our hold on power. I don't want to do that. Well, there's a lot of kids now too. Yeah. Are there five kids? There are five. The

The three strong boys and the other two. The three strong boys that she had with her doting husband, Lainer. You know, may he rest. Love, Lainer. And then two with Damon and one on the way. That's right. Good Lord. That's not convenient. It's not convenient at all. I wish them all safety and security in the wars to come. Oh, my God. This is going to get ugly, folks. Okay, so...

So, yeah, what did you do about the death count for this one? Okay, well, let's start with the easy ones, right? Shout out to the bees. Lord Lyman Beesbury. Colin Bullshit when he sees it. Respect. Colin Bullshit when he sees it. He had a great, great run as master of coin. He did. Very old man. Six and seven years, which is a billion in this world. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay, that's one. Lord Caswell of Bitterbridge, who tried to get out of the Red Keep in order, we assume, to pass word to Rhaenyra. He did buy it. So,

So that's two. Well, what about at White Worm HQ? We didn't see any bodies, which seems very purposeful to me, but it's certainly someone must have perished in yet another mysterious and suspicious fire. I think we're going to have to TBD that one, though, because we just don't have enough information. I agree. And then how many do you think actually bought it? Just a guesstimate. At the coronation? In the dragon pit.

You know, I've always been really bad at guesstimations. I used to do a lot of reporting too. And if I were at an event with a crowd, I would literally like count the grid edges and multiply because I just can't. I'm not good at actually eyeballing. I mean, probably a couple hundred, right? At least. Yeah, I think that that's fair. Like 250. Yeah. Let's call it 250. So let's put it at 252. Okay. Estimate. Is that our costliest count so far?

For sure. If I was just a regular citizen of King's Landing, I'd be like, hey, what about us? It was costly. We bought it in vast, unnamed numbers today. Oh, shout out to all those extras, I guess. Yeah.

Well, shall we have our conversation? Yes. Let's talk to Claire about the episode. That sounds great. Maybe she has some insight on how many kind citizens of King's Landing bought it in that one. She probably does. I wonder if it's all extras or if it was CGI. Yeah. Yeah.

Today, we are delighted to welcome Claire Kilner to the podcast. Claire is a director known for her films How to Deal, The Wedding Date, and Janice Beard. Her work in directing can also be seen on the TV shows The Mosquito Coast, Snowpiercer, and now, of course, the HBO original House of the Dragon.

Claire directed episodes four and five, and of course, also the penultimate episode of season one. Claire, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. This is such a unique episode in that we're seeing the events mainly just around King's Landing. We're seeing one side of the story. How did you look at this in terms of your approach when you first started reading the script?

Well, when I started reading the script, the first thing that hit me is the king is dead. You know, it's like a big episode. And I started thinking about what happens in countries that have a coup and how everyone begins to dig deep, take sides, test each other out, see where each other stands, because that's when everyone starts revealing who they really are in a situation like that.

So I sort of, my approach on the sort of macro level, it was, you know, who is taking sides with Alicent, who's taking sides with Rhaenyra,

And then actually in each scene, I sort of looked at who was trusting who, who is telling lies, who doesn't believe the truth, who doesn't believe that lie. And so with the actors in collaboration with them, we sort of wanted to dig deep beneath the words to see what was really bubbling up in the souls of each character at that point in time. Oh, that's really cool. It's a fascinating episode because to your point, there are a lot of different dynamics happening. I think too about...

I mean, economy of information in a world that doesn't have smartphones obviously is really a big deal, but I think especially in this episode, when some of the first pieces of dialogue we see are "Who knows?" and, you know, "Who is going to be told?" and "Who do we need to keep in the castle so that they don't tell people?" is just super fascinating. Yes, I love the scene with Rhaenys in which she's locked in her room and is completely helpless.

And you just know when she's sitting on that bed, the machinations, and she's just like putting everything together. And she's such a smart woman that she's going to be concocting a plan as soon as she gets out of there.

For sure. It seemed to me, too, like there were a lot of really interesting camera angles in this episode that made me feel like I was looking in on something that I maybe shouldn't be seeing. Well, I mean, it's interesting. I work very closely with my DP, Alejandro Martinez. And what does DP stand for, just for people who don't know? Director of Photography.

cinematographer. What we do is we go into the set and we act out the scene. The two of you? Oh my God, that's amazing. We are terrible actors, you know, but you know, Alejandra does get into it, you know, I'm like steady on. But we just want to say the words out loud and have a feel for the space that we're in because it just starts to take on a new life.

And then we start, you know, discussing like what is the scene about? And if we had to shoot the scene in one shot, what would it be? And that is just a really great, simple way of approaching the scene and getting to what is the heart of the scene. Because sometimes it takes quite a lot of work.

to really get into the minds and hearts of these characters because the writing is so good. I just always look for the depth of the writing, you know? Well, and I suppose you're trying to get it done in as few takes as possible too, just for the sake of everyone else involved in the project. Yes, I mean, especially with the big scene in the small council, you know, that was a, I think, nine-page scene.

There's so many people in that room and they're really, it's all about the reactions, how people are reacting to what other people are saying. So you have to go around the room shooting every day.

during that nine-page scene and shoot all the different angles because, you know, if you want, you know, in simple terms, you want someone to look powerful, you know, you do a low angle, weak, you do a high angle, you know, you want to get the camera movement pushing in on Alicent as she's sort of digesting the fact that her father had a plan and hadn't involved her in this plan and that the room is divided in two, you know, so there is a lot to capture.

And we shot that scene over two days. And I have to say at the end of the two days, I hope people don't mind me saying this, but... My ears are perking up. We were on our final big wide shots and Rhys said his lines, the king is dead. We just all burst into laughter. Oh my God, I would love to see that. It didn't seem real. And we felt we were in an alternate world, a different universe.

And everyone's shoulders were shaking. And then I snorted with laughter. It was not good. My first AD was like, Claire, you're the person not meant to laugh. You have to keep everybody together. But, you know, everyone did hold it together. But it was so surreal just because, you know, when words are said over and over again, it's like sometimes you just lose the actual emotional attachment to them. Thinking about that scene, you mentioned how interesting it is to kind of track people

who is on which side. And that scene in particular, there's a lot of, obviously, you know, characters like Lyman Beesbury are going to be very outspoken about what they want. Otto, Tylan Lannister are going to be very outspoken. But others, you know, it's a very dangerous situation. And so there's a lot of interior measuring, as you noted. Where does this person stand? Where does this person stand? What kind of, how did you work through that with the actors? Like, say, Graham McTavish, who plays Sir Harold. There's all these wonderful things

reaction shots where you can see him really thinking, oh gosh, is this the way this is going? How do I feel about this? How did you talk through that with the various performers?

I really just go with questions. And one of the questions I sort of ask a lot in this show is like, who is the most powerful person in the room? And, you know, what is your reaction to them? And sometimes I ask it as a sort of secret question away from the other actors. But sometimes I'll ask it in front of the other actors. And people get pretty miffed when they think they're the most important person in the room. And people don't say they're the most important person.

in the room, you know. Which is the perfect dynamic to have going in the context of a show like this. Exactly. Actually, I worked with Alison Wright on Snowpiercer and I heard her in some podcast or something saying that I walk into a room and think who is the most powerful person in the room and I

just really liked that approach because we all do it. You know, we walk into a room and we take the measure of everyone, you know, sometimes subconsciously, you know. But so Graham is just a hugely smart, intelligent actor. And, you know, I love what he does with no words. He just tells us so much. So I think...

We just talk about, you know, what do you want here? Another question I ask is, you know, how do you want to change things? Probably that whole time. Westerling probably has so much to say, but isn't allowed to speak it. So when the very sad Beesbury incident happens, he's raring to go. He's just suddenly comes in hot. Thinking about who the most powerful person is, I'm struck by the fact that

This secret plan was rolling into motion. Queen Alicent begins to realize now that these things have been going on without her knowledge. And then she starts asserting herself as, you know, certainly on paper, the most powerful person in the room. And the dynamic changes in a very, very interesting way where all of a sudden Tylan Lannister's like, OK, well, what do you want to do? That's such an interesting energy shift because it really feels like we're going in a very radical direction until Alicent very firmly puts the brakes on things.

I think it's been building up to this moment since episode one, where she feels, you know, like she doesn't have a voice and she's not allowed to speak her truth. And I think in a way, when she realizes that her father has been concocting plans without her, there's a switch. That's the big shift. He was her ally, she was his ally. She loves him, she trusts him, and he's the closest person to her who has always been her protector.

And so when she realizes that he actually isn't and that he's become power hungry and willing to kill Rhaenyra, who, you know, despite everything that happens, there's a deep connection. Ultimately, you can't erase Rhaenyra.

the fact that you loved and cared for someone. It's like it could get twisted, but you can't kind of delete it. So I think that is the propulsion of her to suddenly, well, not suddenly, but it's building in her. And she starts working out as she's speaking what she wants and what she wants to do. And I think this is where a new Alicent is born.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about that. And then, you know, you brought up Rhaenys earlier. That interaction between the two of them in this episode, too, is so great because... Great scene. You know, I mean, I kind of like to think of it as like Rhaenys almost radicalizing Alicent. Like, you know, you can actually ask for power in this scenario. You're pretty well qualified for it. Yeah. What was that one like to talk through?

Well, with those two actors, you just say action and you just sit back and watch. I just love that scene because Alicent believes she has to work within the fabric of the society that she's grown up with, work within the patriarchy. And that's how she will gain power. And Rhaenys is, you will never lose.

ever gain power that way. You will never beat them that way. Well, and like none of those walls are actually real either, right? Or they don't have to be. Yes, exactly. Renise has an incredible line in that scene where

where she says, you know, I'm paraphrasing now, you just want to build a window in the wall of your prison. You're not looking to demolish the prison. That gets right to the heart of what Alicent's trying to do. And I found myself through this and where Rhaenys escapes from the dragon pit, wondering where is she positioned in this great conflict between Rhaenyra and Alicent, the Hightowers and the Targaryen side, because it feels as if

On the one hand, she charted, as Greta noted, she charted a very radical course, or at least put the question out there. What about you? What if you seized it? And then at the... Yeah. When she emerges from the floor of the dragon pit, she could end it right there, but she doesn't. What's driving her in that moment? I think Rhaenys is...

one of the most emotionally mature people in the whole, you know, House of the Dragons. She doesn't want war. She wants peace. She wants people to live together in harmony.

But at this point also, she wants Melisse. She wants her dragon. And, you know, the dragon is, you know, obviously a symbol of power, but Eve loved that dragon. You know, you feel like that Bond when we were shooting the scenes of her riding Melisse. You know, she's just...

She loves it with all her heart, you know. So I think there's so many things coming into play. And, you know, it's a testament to Sarah Hess's writing this scene because it really captures, as you say, the heart of the matter.

How does a collaboration amongst the team and the people below the line work on a day-to-day basis? You know, you arrive and you read the scripts and, you know, you try and get underneath the skin of the scripts. And then, you know, Ryan and Miguel were really great in sort of taking me through their vision for the whole season. And then we also do go through scene by scene. And then also with Sarah, the writer, you know, she is always there on set and

and filling me in on things that might have been said in the writer's room. Actually, Ryan and Miguel are often on set as well. So you really learn to lean on each other for all the information because there's so much information that, you know, for these sequences and scenes that you need to know in terms of backstory of all these different characters, where they're coming from and where they're going. I mean, every time I do my shot list, I always write on the shot list, you know, what scenes everyone has just

been in and what scene they're about to go to because sometimes you know there can be a lot going on on set and for the actors they're diving into a whole other world another character it's good to be able to remind them of that and obviously myself too you know so we do all that and then also you know I spend a lot of time with my first AD and my cinematographer like that's a really strong trio where we talk through every scene you know we go to every set and

times and, you know, talk about potential blocking and lighting and camera angles and what equipment we might need. I also like to prepare when I'm looking at a script and doing my shot lists, I like to prepare sort of three ideas of how it could go in different ways so that when the actors come in with their ideas, I'm not sort of stuck on one idea and I'm open to that because they're very intelligible.

intelligent people you know and they bring so much and they have to make it their own you know and matt smith loves trying out different things on different takes and i just want to embrace that and you know let him find the most authentic version of himself for that scene you know and so we really prepare deeply but then you're prepared to also let it all go

Thinking about this episode, it spans, you know, two person conversations, sword fights, large scale scenes that involve hundreds, if not thousands of people on screen, plus a dragon. When you see that all together in a script, how do you turn that into structure? What are you thinking when you see all this stuff?

in terms of how you're going to order your days. Break it down. You can't take it all in in one go. For example, you know, the dragon pit at the end is basically a third of a page. Yeah. But so much has to happen. And then Rhaenys, you know, appears on the dragon. Right, because she doesn't say anything. Yes. Yes.

So, you know, it's deceptive. And so, you know, the script was actually shorter than many of the others because it was so dense in what was happening. We knew it would fill, you know, the hour very easily. For example, on that dragon pit, we storyboard it and then we print out the storyboards and

And we work out each frame, how we're going to shoot it. We need to do layers, for example. And by that you mean like VFX essentially, right? Yeah, VFX layers. So for example, the actual studio that we shot it in wasn't big enough. It wasn't because the Dragon Pit is as big as a football field.

field, you know, so it's enormous. And so, for example, as we're shooting people entering the dragon pit, we have to have a blue screen in front of them because then we are going to take the other end, the dais end with all the royals on it and put that in behind them and add, you know, hundreds of people as well. And then we have to shoot

many different layers of people to add and then sort of fill the screen with them. And I had ideas, you know, when the dragon breaks through, I did some research into sort of stadiums when people get crushed. So I want to make everything feel very, start from a very real place. So especially, you know, with all those essays, I,

running around like crazy. I don't want them to be running around like headless chickens. I want to talk to them and really instill in them the sense of how dangerous and they're about to die. And you sort of kind of have to take everything absolutely dead seriously. And we have meetings with all the HODs over and over again, getting into the meat of what we are going to do on those days. Because when it comes to those days, we don't have time

to mess around we need to know exactly what we're doing we cut out the storyboards we put them you know on a big wall and we shoot each frame we do we like cross off and we work our way through all the frames you know and then also the stunt coordinator Rowley Erland will come and shoot people on against the blue screen and he'll shoot you know people like being catapulted

you know, off a wall and falling into a dragon pit, you know. And then we'll take all these individual characters and add them to the whole scene. So you've got these very specific moments amongst all the craziness. Wow.

of everyone running away from this giant dragon. That's so cool. This wasn't the first episode that you directed for the show. You did four and five also. How would you say doing those two compared to nine? I mean, they're all pretty pivotal episodes in different ways. Yeah. I mean, they have just such a different feeling. Each one has its own feeling, but four and five did feel more like a pair, and nine felt more like a standalone Alicent episode.

I guess the rhythm of nine was slower, more quiet, more internal in a way. And then the rhythm of four, it was sort of Roman holiday, you know, this young princess,

coming out into the world, feeling liberated, her sense of rebellion, her sort of taking things for herself, not really thinking ahead. She was just in that moment. It's kind of a theme for her, isn't it? Yeah. And then five was, it was the wedding, you know, that was the sort of main part of five and five was, you know, it was so different because we had to create

a House of the Dragon dance in the script it says they dance but not how they dance you know so I needed to think about you know I don't want it to be a sort of Jane Austen dancing because that just wouldn't be right so I enlisted a choreographer who actually worked on Janice Beard as well Francesca Janes she's she does amazing work on huge movies and things

And we talked about what this dance would be. And we started talking about dragons and birds. And so, you know, we found some birds to sort of take their movements and emulate and build that into the dance. Yeah, we went to Pineapple Studios in London and worked on it with this fantastic group of dancers. Yeah.

You know, it was really nice. There were dancers of all ages as well because I really wanted them to feel like they were courtiers, you know, not like 20-year-old dancers. So, you know, I didn't want them to dance too well. I literally had to say, don't dance too well, you know. But our first pass, it was a little bit too contemporary. So we sort of had to bring it back a bit. And it was a bit scary because it was like, I felt like,

oh my god people are going to watch this all over the world and they better like it you know because it was you know they had to do these sort of slightly odd dragon-like movements and the actors like oh you know I didn't want them to feel silly but I think it worked out really well and I'm really proud for that dance actually that's really cool was there ever a moment while you're working on it where you were like this goddamn dance oh yes I'm sure I'm sure

Yeah, the wedding took many days to shoot. You know, I approach it with the head table with all the royals on it. We had to get all that coverage and then we had to get Cole and all his reaction to everything that's happening in there. And then we did sort of steadicam when they were dancing. And then once the fight broke out, we were just like handheld four cameras get in there, you know, with everybody. That's amazing. So yeah, there was different styles of camera work as well. And

Episode 9 at the beginning is very considered and then the panics rises especially with Rhaenys as she's

fighting her way through and then sees the dragon pit that was very much handheld like let the cameras bump into you know actually what was really great about eve at that point was she loved getting in there with all those bunch of people and she was like she kept on saying to them knock me push me you know no one really wanted to because she's the star but she really encouraged them because she wanted to feel like she was right in this mush of people and she couldn't get out

I find myself watching this show and wondering, like, how could we have avoided all of this? Do you watch it? Do you read the scripts and wonder, gosh, if Rhaenyra had only done this or if Alicent and Rhaenyra had only talked or if this and this could have happened, maybe we could have avoided all of this.

Well, I mean, there is that thought if Alicent and Rhaenyra could come together, maybe they could conquer the world together. And it could be a very different place. And that would be a fun show to direct, I would imagine. It would be, yeah. Totally. But unfortunately, elements and parts of their character and personality have been spoiled by the world that they've grown up in. And they have been brought up to believe they need to

you know, the most powerful thing they can do is bear children. I guess this is the big question and these are the battles that will be fought in

And I can't wait to read season two. Okay, so Claire, obviously as a director, you're thinking very, I mean, mechanically probably about a lot of these different scenes in terms of just like who's standing where and where they're going and where the camera is. But I wonder, I mean, obviously you must be someone who's also just super fascinated and engaged by story. Yes. And I guess it just makes me wonder with this story...

Have you chosen a side? No, no, I couldn't possibly choose a side. I'm on the side of every actor I'm speaking to at any given moment.

Sure. That makes sense. You know, they say as an actor, never judge your character. And as a director, you can't ever judge your characters either, really, you know, because you want to encourage them to be their fullest self. Yeah. So I could never, I literally, nobody has told me to say this. I could never possibly take a side. I love them all. Well, Claire, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. This was really a pleasure. It was wonderful. Thank you. It was fun. I really enjoyed it.

All right, that's it for this episode. Come back next week when we will discuss episode 10, the finale with none other than co-showrunner and executive producer Ryan Condal. And of course, we want to hear from you. Send those ravens out. Don't forget to leave a rating. Review us on your podcast player of choice. We love five stars. And of course, you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles. As for me, I'm on Twitter at at network, N-E-T-W-3-R-K.

And you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Greta M. Johnson. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. And this podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo.

This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.