The Sounds of Westeros with Ramin Djawadi
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Lancel, no! That is the unforgettable, spine-tingling song called Light of the Seven that accompanies what I think is the greatest hour of television ever in history, the Winds of Winter episode, June 26, 2016.

Cersei Lannister smites all her foes in one fell swoop. And we end with...

I mean, if you're a Song of Ice and Fire fan, like one of the most iconic reveals ever in the history of storytelling. And that piano gets me every time. Woof. Oh, my God. It's so good. It was funny. I mean, you know, obviously this is a podcast. Y'all can't see how hype Jason got listening to that. But let me tell you, it was really something. I mean, it's a hell of a score. The whole thing. It's all all the music throughout this series is so evocative. It's really something.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I am Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App Podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you are an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon. And Greta, one of the things that makes Game of Thrones, Westeros, House of the Dragon...

so iconic, so memorable is the music. This is a topic that is close to my heart. As a former music school attendee, this is something that I love to talk about. I'm the type of person that works out to film soundtracks because I'm a loser. I think we can just use the word nerd and call it a day there. I think that's fine.

I don't know what's funny because you've already used the word iconic. I've already used the word evocative, but I feel like those are words we're going to use a lot over the course of these conversations we're having today because I think the score, especially for this franchise, is just... It's great. There's so much to unpack with it. So I think this is going to be a really fun episode. And we're actually going to unpack it with the one and only Ramin Djawadi, who is the score composer known for his scores for Game of Thrones.

and House of the Dragons. So this is going to be cool. My former classmate from Berklee College Music, I didn't know him. Amazing. No big deal. But delighted to reunite with him and relive all the times that we did not have together when we were in school.

Okay, yeah. So I would like to know more about this. This is something I didn't know about you at all until we were talking about the fact that we were going to interview Ramin. And you mentioned you like very slyly dropped the fact that you went to Berklee School of Music. So like, what did you do? What did you play? I was a guitar player. Okay. Which if I could have done it all again, I guess I would have learned an instrument that not so many people played. But I went to, yeah, I went to Berklee College of Music, which is a world renowned institution.

institution of musical learning. Yeah. Other notable people who were there during the time I was there.

John Mayer. Amazing. Ramin Djawadi. John Blackwell was their performer, who was the drummer for Prince. Wow. I mean, it is a lot of like professional musicians. That's kind of the idea, largely, is if you go to Berklee, you are going to you're going to do it. Right. And oh, boy, did I not do it. One of the things that becomes obvious to you when you go, you know, because like Berklee is a place that is filled with people.

the best musicians from their town. You know, everybody was like the biggest fish in their respective pond. I thought I was pretty good. And then you go there and you realize, oh, there's some people here that are so like unbelievably talented that I could be in the woodshed 12 hours a day for the next 20 years. I'm never going to get to that level of ability. I would be really curious also to talk to you just a little bit about

Because like you're not only taking performance classes, right? I assume you're also taking a lot of music theory. And like, I just I'm thinking I'm imagining that you're someone when you do listen to a musical score of any kind, that there's a lot of different layers that you're unpacking in a way that like a casual listener might not.

I mean, for sure. Like what I wanted to do was do film scoring. That was and is still a great passion of mine. I think the first film score that wasn't Star Wars that I really noticed was the soundtrack to Glory, followed by the soundtrack to Aliens, which you don't think of as like a really good music movie, but it is. And yeah.

Sure. I think about like things like thematic development is particularly a thing that Ramin does really well throughout the various material he's created for the for the show where he will always call back at some point or usually at some point during a song back to.

to the theme of the show. That kind of bum bum bum bum bum bum will often be the thing that leads you out of a particular song no matter what it is. Just to like kind of hammer home this is where we are, this is what we're doing and they'll often be those little thematic things that happen within the movement that makes you recall where you are. Motifs. And he does that really well and I love paying attention to stuff like that. Stuff like instrumentation when he decides to use piano. There's a lot of

textures, vocal textures. That's really interesting. In House of the Dragon that adds a very spooky vibe. I was going to say haunting. Yeah. Yeah. Which is very different to me than the feel of the Game of Thrones soundtrack, which was more magisterial, I think, overall. Kind of sweeping. Yeah. This feels more intimate and spooky and scary at times, you know? Yeah. And so that's, yeah, that's the way I listen to this. That's great.

That's cool. Well, and I think too, you know, we've talked about this in terms of visual effects, but I think this is another one where it's,

You know, when music scoring is done really well, you almost don't notice it because it does feel so seamlessly integrated with the rest of what you're watching. That's right. But if, you know, if you watch something where something's weird, then you all of a sudden pay attention to it. So I think this is going to be a really fun conversation for a number of reasons, but partly just because there's so much to unpack with this scoring. Yeah. One of my professors used to say, if people notice the film score, it's either really good or really bad.

Right, right. Yeah, it's like with audio editing, you know? It's like, ooh, that one's weird. Yeah, ooh.

It's such an interesting thing, too, right? To have this creative thing that is serving something else. Yes. You're not the star here, and yet these pieces of music have become iconic in their own way, which is such an accomplishment. Yeah, I was actually listening to some of it just while walking my dog this afternoon, and it's like a very... There's like a heavy mist through the city of Chicago today, and like leaves are falling and the breeze is going. It was like... It was the most high-stakes walk I've ever gone on. It was just like...

It's just like emotion. Everything was just so escalated. It was amazing. I highly recommend it. So before we get to Ramin, what are some of your favorite musical sequences from the show, Greta? I mean, it's interesting because I think so many of them, kind of to your point, like from Game of Thrones feel so legendary at this point. I mean, they're classics. I think a great place to start, honestly, is just the theme, especially given the fact that they decided to keep it across the series is really fascinating. And it's...

so good. I mean, it's propulsive. It's exciting. It's got just enough repetition that you can kind of hum along to it, but enough layers come in to make it really interesting. Should we listen to some of it and then talk about it? Let's please do that. Taking you back to May 5th, 2010. Oh, it's good. It's so good. Do you have all the dates memorized for these episode releases? No, I made that up. I knew that it was roughly around there. Good Lord, Jason. But certain dates I do have, like

Battle of the Bastards. There's another great one. Great piece of music. Great episode. And that like you want to talk about one of the greatest nights of television ever. Oh, my God. June 19th, 2016. It was also Game 7, Cleveland Cavaliers, Golden State Warriors completing the down 3-1 comeback by LeBron James. I mean, it was like and to switch over from that game to like Battle of the Bastards. Oh, my God.

Amazing night of television. Okay, let's listen to some Battle of the Bastards music. Oh, so different. So dissonant. Braveheart feel.

The pounding drums, the drums of war, right? The lower register strings, muscularity. And then that the odd time signature just puts you on edge. Something's wrong, but you can't quite figure out what it is. Just good stuff. It's propulsive and disorienting at the same time. Yeah. Which is so interesting, like thinking about the symbolism of that as you're going into battle, it makes perfect. And then like the weird kind of hum buzz of the strings earlier on too. Yeah, that low cut. Oh my God.

Oh, it's just so good. What are some of your other favorites? Oh, gosh. How about The Last of the Starks, which is, you know, brings a tear to my eye, honestly. It's, um... Here is the reveal of...

Of, you know, the lineage of Jon Snow and the legacy of the Stark family, how it's intertwined with the Targaryens and all of this. It really evokes the story to this point in the show through music. It's wonderful. Well, and that was like the big hypothesis that everyone had that finally was confirmed for the first time ever. For the first time ever. I mean, it was huge. I mean, it was accepted that this was the case by Targaryen.

the fan base writ large, I think. But to have it actually put out there in the world was amazing. It was a big deal. Ramin really knows how to hammer the major key. You know, it's like the theme song itself is a minor key, which I always think back to the way I learned the difference between major and minor was spinal tap. Wow.

Did they teach you that at Berkeley? Well, this is as a kid, you know, learning. Right, right, right. You know, the first kind of like idea that, oh, there's different kind of like emotional reactions to different kind of key signatures. Yeah. And so Nigel Toff in only one point is playing this very sad thing in D minor, which he says is the saddest of all keys. And then the joke is that it's just beautiful, like very, you know, like very delicate kind of lines, intersecting lines, as he says. And then the song title is Lick My Love Poem.

Which is the joke. But the theme is in minor, and whenever there's that modulation to major, it feels so weighty. It feels like something has happened. Yeah, the heft to that one, I think also there's a sweetness and a wistfulness at the same time, which I think really speaks to the emotional gravity of the moment that we're seeing. But I mean, it's fascinating listening to it because I think even without the context of the scene...

It still gave me goosebumps. Oh, yeah. Another fun one that I was singing in the pre-pro from House of the Dragon, Power of Prophecy. Here's the spooky stuff that we were talking about is that kind of, you know, the vocal, the, oh, oh, oh, oh, they're standing on the dragon skull. You know, Viserys is pulling out the blade. He's showing Rhaenyra the words written on it. And you hear the, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It's just really lovely.

I just want it known for the record that I demanded that Jason sing all of the songs. Greta said, I'm walking off the pod. That's it. I want to hear Jason's version. I want to hear the Jason Concepcion cover album. Let's hear it for real.

It's so epic. It is. And there again, it's like you feel like it's interesting to contrast with Battle of the Bastards, which is such an action episode. The drums are front and center and here it feels like they're looming off in the distance. We're heading towards them as we like hurdle towards this civil war that people are trying to avoid. I'm so interested to know.

The approach that he took in contrast to Game of Thrones, you know, it feels more intimate. You know, maybe that's just me imputing my emotional reaction to it, but it feels like the soundtrack is more intimate than the Game of Thrones soundtrack. I think that's a really interesting insight. And I think it totally makes sense given the nature of this story and how much sort of smaller in scope it really is than Game of Thrones was in terms of location and characters and all of it. I think that's a really cool part of it.

How much music history did you study at Berkeley? I ask just because it seems to me, you know, obviously Game of Thrones is a fantasy universe, but it is so influenced by actual medieval history. And it seems like so much of this music does kind of resonate with that concept, too. Does that make sense to you? No, it does. We did get into it mostly through the kind of evolution of scales and the harmonic sequence, you know, before tuners. Oh, sure.

It was difficult to tune instruments. So they were tuned according to, I don't want to get too nerdy, but there was like various types of tuning. Like some people may be familiar with the term well-tempered, like the well-tempered clavier. Oh, sure. By Bach. So that was about a tuning system. That was about how to tune instruments.

So that you kind of had the best parts of a kind of inaccurate tuning system with as less of the kind of like discordant parts of it. So we learned about that just as a way to kind of get to modern tuning techniques, the way scales are built, the kind of like science underpinning it. And we did talk about like some medieval music, because again, I think the thing that we really take for granted now is like how difficult it was to

to tune back in those days, to tune instruments. That's crazy to think about. It makes total sense, but I had not thought of that. And of course, yeah, if you can't standardize it, then it's going to be different. Yeah, and you go from one part of the world to another and they'd be, you know, they're

sea is different than sea in Bavaria. And so there were all these kind of like different problems that came up. And so learning about that was part of it, going all the way up to like the 20th century with the kind of like 12-tone music

music movement, which is, I mean, another thing to think about when you think about music is all the music you hear. And I'm going to say Western centric because in different musical cultures, there's more tones. But basically in Western music, there's 12 notes. That's it. And they repeat. That's amazing. So everything that you know from music and film scoring from pop music is basically just 12 notes repeated. So whenever I see like a TikTok from a music producer or some music fan, that's like, oh, this song is

they'll play a song and be like, it reminds me of this song. It's exactly like this one. And they play another song. It is exactly the same. It's only 12 notes, folks. That's it. Can you imagine if we only had 12 words? It'd be very, very tough. It'd be very, very hard.

Are there any other ones that stand out to you over the history of either Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon that stick in your ear? I mean, I think partly because Reigns of Castamere also played such a big role in the books. You know, I mean, I think that's also what's so exciting about a series like Thrones and getting to do this score is that it does refer back to text that also talks about the music. I think that one's I mean, obviously it's a classic.

The lyrics to Reigns of Castamere basically commemorate Tywin Lannister wiping out House Reigns, right? Wiping out an entire family that dared to go against his authority. What a way to commemorate it. And now, so that song kicks off the Red Wedding, but without lyrics. So right now we're going to hear the version without lyrics that gets that whole party started. ♪

And folks, if you hear that song as the doors are closing in a hall, leave immediately. Kat, Rob, why are you just hanging out here? You hear the band start playing this. You must leave now. Go. Go. Another song that appears in the books, you know, just as lyrics is Jenny of Old Stones. And it's a song that's

And now we're going to play for you the instrumental version. So Jenny was a woman of mysterious origins who said she was descended from a former royal house of the Riverlands that was destroyed. And she meets Duncan Targaryen, who is the son of Aegon V.

and the crown prince, and they strike up this love affair, which inspires Duncan to marry this woman against his father's wishes. It becomes this love story that all the realm delights in. But then Duncan, Aegon, and a lot of the many other royal retainers

were killed at the tragedy of Summerhall in which it is thought that Aegon V was trying to like bring back dragons through some kind of magical rite possibly involving wildfire and he dies. And so the song is about how Jenny is now all alone in the world without like the love of her life and these various other people that have passed away and that's just Jenny.

It's a sad one, folks, and a good one. It is a sad one and a good one. I love that cello. So gorgeous. Yeah. That also sounds a lot like the theme to me. It really does. It's in that same kind of low... Yeah. It's another thing I can't wait to ask if, you know, it feels like Ramin is selecting registers that...

feel like a person's voice. Yes, which the cello is well known for, for sure. Right. Yeah, I think that's really fascinating. Well, should we get to it? Should we talk to Ramin? Let's do it. For this special music episode of the official Game of Thrones podcast, we are joined by score composer Ramin Djawadi. You may recognize Ramin's impressive music from places like, I don't know, House of the Dragon, Game of Thrones, but also Marvel films such as Blade Trinity, Iron Man, Eternals, and

the television series Jack Ryan, Westworld, and of course, every time you press play on a House of the Dragon episode, he's won two consecutive Emmy Awards for Game of Thrones in 2018 for the episode The Dragon and the Wolf, and in 2019 for the excellent The Long Night.

And of course, you're familiar with his work as the composer for the HBO Game of Thrones prequel series, House of the Dragon, for which you are listening to the official podcast right now. Ramin, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I know we're both really excited to talk with you. And I hate to use the word vibes in terms of score, but I think it actually works really well.

And I am just so fascinated to hear your process when it comes to creating music that is so evocative and that works so well with the material that you're getting. Oh, thank you so much. It's been so exciting to be back in this world of Westeros. And, you know, obviously it's been a couple of years since the original Game of Thrones show. And so when this one came around and when I saw the first couple episodes when they sent them in, I was so inspired right away. It was really amazing.

- You mentioned them sending the episodes in. So in terms of your process, like when do you start ideating? Do you see cuts? Do you start working when you see scripts? How does that work?

I sometimes work from scripts, but usually I get started once I receive the episodes. They don't have to be locked, and locked means that there's no more picture changes, which nowadays I would see with visual effects and everything, nothing's really ever locked anymore. So once it kind of gets a bit more narrowed down what the cut will be, it'll be sent over to me, and that's when I get started. But sometimes I start from scripts, and then actually in this case on House of the Dragon, there were a couple of scenes...

that I had to write actually before the scenes were shot, the wedding scenes, some of those, the dance scenes. So that music was written before and then the choreography was actually done to the music. Oh, that makes total sense. Of course, you would want that kind of retroactively done. So in general, you are seeing cuts. What are you looking for when you're watching these scenes? And in terms of...

the work that you need to do subsequently to create a score? Once I receive a cut, the next step is what we call the spotting session where I sit down with Ryan and Miguel and we actually watch the episodes together and we go through every scene and we decide where music should be placed, where it should start, where it should stop, and then what it dramatically should achieve.

I always like to point out that this is a collaboration, so I don't just write whatever I want. They have already a good vision of what they want, and then we discuss it, and then they describe emotions and plot, obviously with this show where things get planted early in episodes and then expand later on, like all these things we talk about. And then my job is to turn it into musical notes. And then I go back to my studio and then start writing pieces and

And then once I have a bunch assembled, then we actually meet again and look at the scenes with the music I've written. And then we discuss again and we might tweak, we might not, you know, whatever is necessary to get it just right. I wonder if you might tell us about some of the techniques you use. Like one of the things that's really stood out to me is the way...

You'll often call back to the overall theme of the show, like in a piece like The Prince That Was Promised at the end. You get that bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum to kind of remind us where we are. Or these, you know, major key modulations sometimes under a very emotional scene. Take us through how you decide to deploy some of these techniques and what emotion they're there to kind of amplify that.

Yeah, I mean, the main theme has always been since the beginning. I mean, the intention was always that that's a theme that stands for everybody, right? That's the overarching theme for the whole show. And what's been nice with that is that when we feel there's something of high importance, then we can say, okay, now it's time to use the main theme. And this goes back to the original show where we did not really, other than the main title, of course, where we did not use...

if I recall correctly, either not at all, very little, but until the later episodes, episodes nine and 10, that's when we said, okay, now it's time to start using the main theme. And then of course, as the seasons expanded and continued and the stories continued, then we started using it more often, but still it was always sparsely used. And same now in House of the Dragon, where we felt towards the end of the episode that

This is obviously of such significance. Let's use the main title theme. And actually same with the piano. The piano was an instrument that was never used until season six. And because of that, it had such an impact because it was just not part of the sound palette. But then in Dragons, we decided, well, that's because it is established. Again, we're at the end of the first episode. We feel this is already, it's time already to use the piano. Why not? Might as well just drop it right away.

I love the phrase sound palette and I know we have a lot of questions about instrumentation but I would love to stick with the theme just for a second because at this point you know now that season one of House of the Dragon is done it feels so inevitable to me that the

the theme from Game of Thrones would be the theme for House of the Dragon, but was that taken for granted or did you consider other themes initially? We always said to stay with the theme to really connect the two shows. We always talked about like, how do we connect the DNA? You know, how do we keep the DNA alive between those two shows? And we felt the main theme, again, it's an overarching theme for all of Westeros. So we felt this is, it's the right idea to do that. It's been off the air for a while just to draw everybody in right away. It just kind of sets the tone right away.

Mm hmm. You've done an amazing variety of work from some Marvel movies like The Eternals to Jack Ryan, Westworld, also on HBO Max. But did you have any kind of inkling when you wrote the main theme for Game of Thrones that it would become this iconic, this iconic, famous thing?

Not at all. I'm imagining what a narcissist you'd have to be. This is it. I did it. I nailed that one. No, I just, I mean, I always tried to set my best foot forward and I was, you know, I write for my gut and I just, I mean, this, it just came to me when I saw this

beautiful opening and had a discussion with David and Dan at the time of, you know, the key word was make it a journey that all the characters travel a lot. Yeah. And so, yeah, I just wrote it and had no idea about what was interesting. I still remember the next day after the first episode had aired, David and Dan started sending me YouTube covers of the theme song. There was a rock version and then, you know, all these different versions popped and I thought, wow, this is pretty amazing that people are inspired and doing these cover songs now. It's great.

That's amazing. Okay, so let's go back to the idea of a sound palette because I am obsessed with that concept. And I think the instrumentation that you use across these shows is really fascinating. I think, you know, we've talked about it in a number of different ways, the way that

obviously this world is modeled after medieval history, but it's also a fantasy world, which means you could theoretically do anything with instrumentation. What's part of your sound palette? Like, what do you think is off the table? What wouldn't you ever use? What do you find yourself going back to? I mean, cello obviously is super resonant and seen throughout. Can you talk us through a little bit of that?

Absolutely, yeah. And it's really exactly what you said. I mean, obviously it has a medieval feel, but at the same time, it's fantasy. And that was always part of the original discussion where we thought, well, let's not try to create authentic medieval music. That's just something we thought wouldn't work very well throughout the entire show. So we thought, what else can we do and make it a bit contemporary? There's actually not a lot, but there's some synthesizers that I use in the show that I try to implement organically. But yeah, the main instrument is

is the cello. It was just somehow the instrument that I felt was, it just captured the right mood. I like how it has a wide range. It has, it can also get into the high violin range, which I always like. And it just sounds different than a violin, even though if it's when it's placed in the same range. And so I just felt it was the right tone, but then yeah, lots of percussion. I mean, everything around it, but we never tried to,

be restricted by this medieval tone. And at the same time also, sometimes I would go against actually where you would think instruments would belong to regionally. For example, I used the didgeridoo with the wildlings

who are from the north, the far north, but it's actually an Australian instrument. And I just thought it's a cool sounding instrument and it just kind of fit the wildlings very well. There's also a duduk that we use that was used for the Dothraki's, which is a more Middle Eastern instrument. But again, I just kind of felt it was a cool instrument that fit the Dothraki's.

You mentioned piano not showing up until season six and light of the seven. Was there any particular reason that the piano took so long to kind of like filter into it? And then you're using more piano now in House of the Dragon. You're also using more kind of like vocal textures, thinking about the power of prophecy and the kind of

Yeah, the piano, that was just an instrument that I somehow, even though, like I just said, it is fantasy, so anything really goes, but somehow I was, in the beginning at least, I felt the piano might not be the right instrument.

instrument for this. So we never used it. And then when season six came around and the special scene came around and we just sat down and thought, well, we need something new and something different.

And then we discussed the piano and I wrote the piece for the piano. And then we even hesitated, actually. Then I thought, is it maybe actually too much? And so I actually went back and I rearranged a piece for harp because we had used harp in the show before and it just didn't feel right. So we went back to the piano and looking back, you know, obviously so happy because it was the right thing. It just had such an impact.

And it's just worked. And then, so now cut to the House of the Dragon because the piano was established. We said, well, now let's use it in the first episode. And it gets, I think I'm using it in the third episode. And then, I mean, there's definitely multiple episodes where you're still significant, you

but we did use it more often because, again, it was established. And then there's also then some other textures in House of the Dragon that I used that I didn't use in Game of Thrones because when we thought, well, we're 300 years before, is there maybe something texturally that can then later on change? And one of those is actually woodwinds. I never really used much woodwinds in Game of Thrones. And then in this show, there were some woodwind texture, not really ever lead instruments used,

But they're definitely there. And just still you feel like you're in the world of Game of Thrones, but yet it's a little bit different. That's so interesting because I pick up on that with, you know, the costumes in the set too, that there is really that feeling of like, how do we make this something people recognize, but also shift it by a couple of hundred years? I just find that fascinating. Yeah, exactly. And in this case, we just added instrument that then 300 years later just simply fall away. You know, you can look at it like, oh, maybe they were not used anymore.

Like the dragons. Yeah, exactly. So how much do you know about the story arcs of where the characters are going? Because I could see a case for someone like you...

to watch each episode very singularly and really just work with that moment because that is the moment that you're trying to emphasize with music. I could also see an argument where if you have a greater sense of the overarching story, that can also help you build momentum to something in a way that you might not otherwise.

Correct. Yeah. And it's definitely, again, I rely heavily on Miguel and Ryan in this case on Dragons, where if it's not available for me, I mean, obviously either if I can't see already some kind of a cut, then they'll say, hey, you know, you should really read the script for this episode because it's important. Or they just simply tell me and say, look, whatever theme you establish for this character for this plot is.

make sure it can turn dark later on. It can do because this is what happens. So sometimes they do a reveal. Sometimes I also like to be surprised myself when I watch the episodes for the first time. But obviously, if it's important for me to know that I can then write the music accordingly, then they will tell me. What's an example of that from House of the Dragon? Lots of things become pretty dark. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really the relationship between Rhaenyra and Elisabeth. I mean, really the split between

black and the greens that how in the beginning it's, it's, it's a friendship that then just further and further separates. And I needed to make sure that those themes in the beginning convey friendship and, and just emotional, but then just are able to go dark, go really dark and more powerful. That makes sense. When you were starting out as a musician, what were the soundtracks that inspired you to become a composer, a film composer?

Star Wars, of course. But the other one was The Magnificent Seven by Elmer Bernstein. That was a movie and the score that just really inspired me. And that clicked for me when I heard that music. I thought that's something that I want to do. The themes that connected so well and that stuck with you after the movie was over. And I just loved it so much.

How do you think of your role on a show like House of the Dragon or Game of Thrones?

I mean, you're adding so much. We talked about this leading up to this conversation, Jason, and I did the idea that so often a score. What is it that your teacher? It was someone at Berkeley even who said it, right, Jason? Oh, yeah. That was if the audience notices the score, it's either really good or really bad. Something that was told to me at school. I'm just curious. Is there like an analogy or metaphor that you use to sort of think of the way that you are helping usher this material into the world? Yeah.

I mean, I simply just look at it that my job is to enhance the emotions and the drama. I mean, that's really what we're doing. And, you know, because most of the time it's in the background. Obviously, there is moments and there were quite a few in the show, which obviously for a composer is always amazing when there's not a lot of dialogue and you can just let go with the music and really put it in the foreground. But most of the time we're in the background and we always say dialogue is king because dialogue will be louder than the music. And sometimes the sound effects will be louder or, you know, like this. So there's this...

this balance that you have to find. And I think what the show does really well is finding that balance where either there's no music at all. And then when music comes in, it really means something or the sound effects take over or the music takes over when even in big battle scenes. And that's, that's a balance that, that is I think very hard to achieve, but, but yeah, overall my job is just to enhance and to guide the,

the audience. Again, with this particular show, it's nice where you can push them in one direction or even mislead them where if you pay attention, there might be a theme that might play that you think, oh, does this mean this later on? And then it doesn't. Not that I can think of an example right now, but we definitely do that.

Where certain emotions I pushed a bit more. Again, this friendship even in the beginning, or you establish with music, you establish a relationship between characters maybe a bit more to then later tear it apart.

I could see that with maybe Rhaenyra and Kristen Cole being a good example of that. Right. That's another one. Yeah. You mentioned the wedding dance. That's something that's never really been done in Game of Thrones and certainly House of the Dragon being a newer series. What was your thinking as you went in to kind of create this dance sequence?

Yeah, this also again goes back to that we didn't want to create traditional medieval dance music. So we thought these are Targaryens. How can we enhance this more? So we thought about percussion from the beginning, actually. The cello sound, of course, had to be there for the melodic part, but there was also a lot of percussion so that it just can get more stronger, more of a tribal feel to it.

And yeah, that's how we approached it. So are you team green or team black? I don't know if I can be in either direction. I think I have to be as neutral as I can. I respect it. You know, your work is so extensive, starting from the TV show Prison Break and then Iron Man being two of your earliest projects. And you've done...

obviously Game of Thrones, you've done video games, you've done many, many movies and shows. Do you ever think about like stepping behind the camera? Michael Giacchino is another noted film score composer, recently directed the Werewolf by Night for Marvel. Have you ever thought yourself about like, I've seen so many TV shows and movies at this point, maybe I could direct one. No, absolutely not.

I just don't feel I have that skill. I've stepped in front of the camera as a cameo for fun I did in Westworld. And even that, I'm not an actor at all. So unless you just kind of put me in the background and have me just stand there, I wouldn't know what to do. So I feel much more comfortable with an instrument in my studio. I admire the work that directors and everybody do, but that's not something I would ever even try. Yeah.

So you've been so intensely involved in this show. Were you watching the episodes as they were coming out? No, I wasn't actually. It's for two reasons. One is I'm usually still working on the later shows when it starts airing. So I usually tend to be busy. And then the second reason is even if like obviously on the last episode or the last two episodes I was done.

But even then, I don't watch it because I have this thing where I just can't let go. So if I watch it, then I'll think, oh, should I have done this? Yeah. And I will keep tweaking until I have to deliver. And so watching it again, I think, is too hard for me. And I've seen it a thousand times at that point. I've seen it so many times. Sure. We were just talking about the power of the deadline. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, uh, and even I think I'm pretty good with keeping my work schedule, but then at the same time, there's the artist in me that I will also procrastinate if I'm allowed to. So that's definitely, there's definitely that. Greta and I have spoken on this episode about our, our own personal favorite pieces of music, both from Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon. Do you have any favorites?

Oh, boy. I mean, there's several. I'm asking you to literally pick your kids. Which are your favorite kids you have? Yeah, it's so hard. I mean, Viserys. I mean, it kind of goes hand in hand also with the scene itself. Like Viserys' entry into the throne room in episode eight. It's a hell of a scene. Yeah, it was really powerful. Rhaenyra's crowning in the last episode was very special. Yeah.

I mean, episode three, when Damon goes and kind of when he surrenders, like that scene was super powerful. I mean, there's so many good scenes like the, I mean, I can go on and on once I get going. What about this one? The opening funeral in episode seven, that was beautiful. I mean, there's so many, so many great scenes.

No kidding. When you are deep in writing and working on these episodes, are you cautious about what else you kind of consume in that time frame? I think about, you know, people I talk to, I talk to a lot of authors on the other show I host, and often when they are like deep in writing, they won't want to read anything even close to the genre that they write just because they're worried about picking up things that they might not use otherwise. Is that a thing for you at all?

Definitely. I mean, it's more that I just simply don't have time. And I mean, I used to just sit down and listen to music. I just don't do that anymore. I just either write or I just do something completely different just to get inspired by just going on a walk, but not listening to music while you're on a walk or exercising. The only other time when I would listen to music is in the car. And then that's usually pop music because I'm driving my kids to some sports event or something. And then we listen to pop music. That's really the only other time. But otherwise, no.

You mentioned you're working all the time. Do you play for pleasure anymore? Do you just like sit down at the keyboard or the piano or what have you and just kind of, you know, free associate? I do actually. That's the one thing I will do. I will take a break from music.

writing music, but then I'll go to the piano and just play classical pieces and just play Beethoven sonatas or Bach inventions or something just to kind of clear my head. Because I really enjoy that part of just playing or I'll pick up the guitar and just play some jazz things and just improvise or something that I actually enjoy a lot. That's really cool. Is it true that you have synesthesia? Yeah.

I guess. I mean, that's something that I always just took for granted. I don't even know how to describe it. I mean, that's something my wife discovered because she asked me when I write, what do I hear? What do I see? And I said, well, I see colors. I mean, that's just kind of what I do. Yeah, that's anesthesia. Yeah, and then she looked it up and then discovered that there is actually a term for that. I had no idea that that existed. I didn't know. I just kind of just...

And she's not a musician. She's very good with music. And she was just very curious of my process and how I go about it. And I said, well, I'm very inspired by visuals, which obviously as a film composer is very helpful because we write to visuals all the time. And so I described to her that certain colors trigger certain notes or chords or moods. And it's like painting. Then when I write, I go, oh, let me add some blue. Let me add some red.

That explains sound palette too. Yeah. That makes perfect sense then. That's really cool. So how would you say the colors between Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon differ? I feel they're very similar, actually. I mean, they did a beautiful job with continuing the sound palette. And even though the costumes and everything looks different, but yet at the same time, it's the same, like the Targaryen red. And there's things that are very similar to the dragon fire. And there's so many similar things.

Which let me really kind of continue the music the way I did. When people find out what you work on, who you are, do they bother you for spoilers? They're like, well, what's going to happen? All the time. And they'll try to trick me and say, oh, so by the way...

But I'm actually really good about not saying anything. I'm really good with keeping secrets because I really feel that it'll have a much better impact when you see it in all its glory, when it's finished and polished and all that. And including my family, when my wife walks into the studio, I'll actually black out the screen and I'll stop what I'm working on so she can't hear anything or see anything. Actually, I think about it. I might play her some music, but I will not show her any visuals or actually reveal any plot or anything.

Yeah. That's fascinating. I want to have her on next. Yeah, I know. I take that very serious. That's really cool. So what's next for you? There's a show called Jack Ryan that's on Amazon that I'm working on. And then there's some other things that...

cooking that I actually can't talk about at this point. Good job keeping the secret. Yeah, exactly. There we go. Here we go again. Well, Ramin, thank you so much for joining us. It's been delightful. Yes, thank you. Oh, likewise. No, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Jason, what did you think? I thought that was so fascinating. I just think that process is kind of mind-blowing how it all works. It was just really fun. I mean, it's just about the coolest job that you can have, right? Yeah. Beyond, like, creating the story...

I think in a very significant way, he's created or added to and augmented the emotional impact of this story. I mean, there are certain musical cues from both Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon that just, you know, elicit a Pavlovian response, like in my body. What'd you think? Totally, yeah. I mean, just that idea of music as the enhancement, I think is so interesting. It makes total sense. And I don't know, maybe I just hadn't thought about it that hard before, but the idea that

He's working with the video as much as he possibly can that, you know, just to think about that the process has to get that far along before he can really jump in. Yeah. Also just blows my mind because it's like, oh, man, y'all have been working really hard on this for a really long time. Oh, absolutely. Which is maybe pretty obvious. But just to really get examples of that, I find really fascinating. I also just love that people in Ramin's life are like, so what happens?

What's going on? What happens next? What's going on? What happens in the finale? Who dies? Like, tell me. Tell me now. What's going on? So good. I wonder what he does to like, how does Ramin watch a show? Oh, my God. You know, how does he watch television? What did what does he watch so that he can enjoy the plot twists and the turns and stuff? Oh, my God. You know, without understanding what's happening next. It must be it must be delightful for him to just like turn on reality TV.

Yes. Something without a score at all. Practically. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Like, do you ever listen to podcasts? I can't really do it without it feeling like work. Like, it's not like a fun, you know, my friends are like, oh, yeah, it's such a great time. And I'm like, but who produced it? And why did they mix the music that way? And what's with that weird edit at 3417, you know?

Yeah, it is hard for me to listen to podcasts and definitely not my own. People ask me, do you ever go back and listen to old episodes of... No. What am I, psycho? Absolutely not. What are you, crazy? That sounds terrible. Yeah, it sounds awful.

So we are almost ready to wrap up this episode. But before we go, we have some pretty exciting news to share with you. The big news, which I am super excited about, is that you and I are going to be doing a live episode of this podcast from the Game of Thrones official fan convention. That's right. We continue to bamboozle people into letting us talk into microphones and we're doing it again, folks. Yeah.

At the Los Angeles Convention Center. We're doing it live. From the Los Angeles Convention Center, December 9th to 11th.

This is the first official fan convention for the Game of Thrones franchise. Yeah. And it is including a legitimately star studded cast of talent will be at this convention. Yeah. This is going to be great. Kit Harington, who plays Jon Snow, will be there. Never heard of him. No big deal. We also have, you know, our buddy Tormund Giant, Spain. We've got Hodor and Podrick Payne and Bran Stark and Theon Greyjoy. And Joffrey's going to be there. This is going to be really fun. I'm super excited about this. Is it an agent? Yeah.

I can't wait. I mean, also just like December in L.A. sounds pretty good from over here in Chicago, could I just say? It's good stuff. From House of the Dragon, Steve Toussaint, our Lord Corliss Valerian, Master of the Tides will be joining us. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think this is going to be a really good time. So you can get tickets now. They are on sale if you go to gotcon.events.

And yeah, we're going to do a live podcast, too. Super exciting. Tickets for the convention are on sale now. We would love to see you there. You can go to gotcon.events to get ticks. And that is not all the news we have, Jason. Warner Brothers Home Entertainment is set to release House of the Dragon, the complete first season. The release includes all 10 episodes of the HBO series that we all got to enjoy together.

plus over an hour of bonus features and two all-new never-before-seen featurettes.

Yep.

And speaking of digital, there are NFTs. Game of Thrones Build Your Realm is a one-of-a-kind collectible experience from Nifty's, the platform for NFT-powered fan communities, and...

Those incredible geniuses at Warner Brothers Discovery Global Consumer Products. Yes. The initial sale begins with the release of unique avatars inspired by Game of Thrones, which we bundled with a pack of digital collectibles, allowing users to begin their journey and upgrade their avatar. Yep. For more information on that, you can go to nifties.com. Jason, you and I are going to be back in two weeks. And that is all for today's episode. That is all for us this episode. And we want to hear from y'all.

Don't forget to leave a review and a rating on your podcast player of choice. We love that. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragons social media handles. You find me at Twitter at NETW3RK. Yes, and you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on both Twitter and Instagram.

The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max. In collaboration with iHeartRadio, the podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socia. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo.

This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks, as always, to Michael Gluck-Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team. Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.