Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Ina Garten
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Well, hi there. It's me. Julia li drive us. We're back for season three of wise than me. We've got so much more wisdom to share from the magnificent old ladies featured this season to celebrate the start of season three. We've added some gruy new items to our wise of the me merchandise collection.

Head over to merch shop to check out all of our great stuff, like a classic wiser than me bag tote bag, a kitchen tea tower with my grandma d is delicious pana butter cookie recipe featured on IT and a brand new gorgeous hard cover rather than mean notebook to capture all of this season's bits of wisdom. Start shopping today by visiting rather than me shop dot com. lemonade.

Once in our travels, when I was a little girl about eight, I think, uh, when my daddy tom was a surgeon on the home hospital ship, we were living in tunisia. And I remember very vividly that I was so set with my mom because he said I had to finish my dinner before I had desert, which made no sense at all. And there was another couple there who were working with my dad, and the woman in the couple said, well, how about I take you out for lunch, just you and me, and then you can have desert first.

And so that was very appealing, as you can imagine. And I did. We'd went to lunch, and I ordered a huge hot forge sunday.

I mean, just huge. And I just gobble that fucker up. And then when I was time to actually ordered lunch, well, I couldn't really order lunch because I was too full.

But I assure you of one thing, I did not learn a lesson that day. I've always been a true and deep lover of sweets and desserts. In fact, one of my earliest memories is of these peanut ter cookies that my grandma dd made for me.

You know, the kind that have the fork in print on them. I still have her hand written index card with a cookie recipe. Well, actually I think I have IT.

And other word is my mom may have IT, I don't know, but I love desert so much. I don't know exactly why, other than it's so sweet and yami. But god, why not? It's always been like that for me.

And so, you know, when our kids were little providing for them, obviously this is some instinctual maternal thing. You just get this incredible joy out of your kids finishing a meal that you made for them, right? The basic kind of nurturing.

And i'm also very captive to ritual, as I think we all are, to a certain extent. So I put great store into birthdays and making sure that both of our kids always had memorable birthdays. And so when our first sun, Henry was little, you know, just a little toddle, I was so looking forward to making him a bird.

Cae, and so I asked him what kind of cake he wanted. And I mean, honestly, he was little. He was barely even talking, what does he know about cakes? But he was a fanciful kid.

So when I said what kind of cake to one hand, and he said, orange. And this was clearly the color orange, I don't think that he had any idea that a cake could even have an orange flavor. This was just about the look of IT.

You know, I think about IT, just a giant orange cake. So I said about looking for an orange cake that I could make for him. And I did.

I found a bunt cake made with real oranges that I, then Jerry, rigged into a three layer cake, and then I concocted the cream cheese frosting to go with IT. And I shouldn't say this because, you know, it's not very farm to table of me. But I died, the frosting orange, not a bright orange, more sort of of a peach salmon color, so that IT was aesthetically pleasing, you know.

And I covered IT in Mandarin and oranges on top. IT was gor just, and IT was a huge hit with Henry. And i've been making that cake on his birthday ever since.

And then my Younger son, charlie, he requested a key line pie. So I made him this key line pie. I ordered the key line juice from just one place these guys, uh, called the manhattan key line juice company.

And you can look at up because that's all they sell for real key line juice, nothing else, which is just so fabulous. Ly, old school, I just love IT. So i've been making that key line pie for my Charles from the twenty five years, and the orange cake for Henry going on thirty years.

Now I use fresh orange es from our own tree, so it's even Better for me. This is just the quantification of a gesture of love is such a simple thing, you know, measuring, mixing, baking. But IT does take focus and concentration, an exact ness.

And even then, IT doesn't always go the way you want. You know, there's some luck and carma mixed into a too but boy, it's just it's so meaningful to me to make something sweet and points tly delicious for the people that I love. And I plan on doing this for the rest of my life.

This little thing, or it's actually kind of a big thing, because IT gives me such joy and pride. It's become a sacrement really now to me. So I guess cooking can take on a significance away beyond just being delicious and nutritious. And that's why I am so delighted today to get to talk to ana garden.

Hi, i'm Julia li dice, and this is wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wise than me.

Anybody hungry, you're gonna be, because our guests today has been dishing out fabulous recipes and a shit ton of charm for decades. SHE is the barefoot contest that the queen of comfort cooking. Her signature bob and blue shirt are his iconic as her roasted chicken, but is not just about the food.

Her down to earth approach has not only transformed the coronary landscape, but has also left a real mark on how wheel people perceive and embrace the art of home cooking. I we eat roasted carrots at our house because of her and an era full of star chefs, SHE claims not to be a chef, but a cook. He stands out not just for her recipes, but for her genuine connection with her audience, which has made her a cultural figure name for her warmth and authenticity.

And somehow that makes her food even more scrumptious. One iconic store, two hit T V shows, thirteen best selling cookbooks and a fifty five year long marriage. Later, our guest feels univerSally cherished, especially by her husband, jeffrey, but also by me.

And for me, SHE is really pretty much is up there with fresh salty butter on warm bread. I think it's because he makes every male feel like a coy get together with an old friend. Now full disclosure.

I'm really just helping to get invited to a dinner party at our. And I bring the desert. I will. I'm so pleased to welcome the James speared award winner and the hamptons most notorious, a woman who is so much wiser than me and a garden.

I know. I'm so happy to be here.

I love you. I love you. I love you. Let's just say that from the start.

I love that the rose carrots are you think of you, you think of rose chicken and rose carrots because that I always say it's about those two things. IT is it's about simplicity and delicious.

completely. One hundred percent. You brought carrots back into my life in a very powerful way. So let me ask you something, are you comfortable if we share your real age?

I am.

And what is your real age.

my real age of seventy six.

And how old do you feel? I know.

you know, I kind of like being seventy six, I get to do whatever. Yeah.

yeah. No bs. no.

I mean, I wouldn't mind a twenty five year old body. The rest of IT. I'll take the seventy six.

I hear of that. I love that you're completely embracing IT. I feel the same way about getting older. I there are aspects of being Younger, physical aspects that would be nice, but there is something very fing about a getting older, right?

Well, I feel like when we're Younger, we wonder what we're become of us. And when we're older, we know it's gonna come of us and it's turned out really great.

Yeah, I completely hear that and it's it's nice to feel it's like boots that you've been wearing a long time. They're super comfortable and you feel confident in them.

I think that when you're Younger, you feel I have to do everything because you know, you're just building things and you have to do everything that that comes your way. And then when you get older, you start choosing and you choose because it's fun, not for any other reason, right?

Well, that's right. And I remember in doing research that to talk with you and you were saying that, uh Jeffery, when you were um making the decision to leave uh government, the White house and you weren't sure what to do and he said we'll just find something fun for you and because .

he said IT for me particularly because if it's fun, I want to do IT if it's not fun, you can get me to do with with the cattle prod.

I had a physics teacher when I was in high school, mister coin, marty coin, and he was a wonderful teacher. He would write out the bottom of every paper that you would turn and he would say, have fun at all costs and yeah and of obviously that can be misunderstood but I knew what he meant and i've certainly applied that in my own life um it's an incredible lens through which to make decisions .

yeah yeah .

so tell me, take me through a typical eating day for you like, you know, well, I mean, what you eat today? What if you had to eat?

Well, it's pretty orderly actually yeah, when to hear I pretty much have toast and coffee for breakfast and the toast test to have good french button on IT with save sea salt yes, called burd barat B A R A T T with flake sea salt and it's just so delicious and so that I have for breakfast and then and exactly ten thirty, I have a cup of tea was little honey in IT and it's not ten twenty nine, and it's not ten thirty one. At ten thirty my brain goes being, I have done some tea, okay. And then for lunch every night, I always have soup, which is so easy because I can make a lot of soup live in the freezer.

What you have today.

I had italian winning soup.

Yah my.

And then for dinner, we either go out to dinner with friends or we ordered dinner from a restaurant. I've been testing recipe all day. The last thing I want to do is make dinner.

Yeah, I hear that. And I don't like to have for dinner what I tested during the day unless it's totally done and it's so good. I want effort to have IT, right? That's work.

And this is dinner. Got IT and I don't want to eat something. You go and we should have more rosemary in IT. It's just not fun.

Yeah, not fun. There will go with the fun again. Yes, I want to show you a picture for our listeners.

I'm showing a picture of what I made for me and my husband this morning for breakfast, and me see if you can see IT a wait shit. My god, I don't know how to get that thing away. Oh god, i'm trying to work my iphone. Okay, wait, can you see that? That's smash .

takes on toast. Smash takes to smash .

tags with the grainy mustard.

Is that grave? Yeah, I have fabulous was said to get you in the mood for today.

yeah. And once I was just looking, I was revealing a bunch your code books, which of course I own. And I was just of wanted to get, oh yeah, you kidding me. I mean, I could not live .

without them. 这。

i could not live without them. Thank you. How was your relationship change to food as you have gotten older, you know, I mean, are their taste that you have now that you didn't plan or things I mean back in the day or things you didn't like when you were Younger that you love? Now I think .

my style hasn't changed at all. I think that might be my sophistication about things to change. And i've learned about a few things. So um you know I didn't know what truthful button was and didn't know what Sarah cha was there. A few things in the twenty five years i've been writing cookbooks that i've kind of acquired as part of the republic of things that I can use. But I think I still like roast chicken and ropes carrots.

I know you can't beat.

Just it's one thing I learned when I had especially food stories that people eat differently at home and they do in a restaurant. They like really simple food, right? And that's true about me too.

Actually, I like simple footing the restaurant on tuban. It's people don't want fancy meal with morals at home yeah and so I think that hasn't changed. What has change little bit is my insistence on flavor that if I go back to a recipe for twenty years ago, needs a little extra something.

And I think it's always something like some acid, like lemon juice or red wine vinegar, and or something salty, like farmers on cheese, just that little thing at the end that needs to be added. That kind of brings out the flavor. So i've gotten Better at that.

Better at identifying that, right? Yeah because I think our taste buds change, you know I mean, I think that they physically change. Don't ask me how or why that happens.

I will maybe, but I didn't like a antro when I started, and I still don't like sancha now. So that'll never change.

Yeah, now listen, you and I are going to have a huge argument about that, because I love. So you love. I put on everything, do you really?

Yeah, I do.

I make chicken salad the other day, and I just throw tons of salt and IT. Why don't you like santer? By the way.

I think it's physiological. I think what you taste is not what I it's a really, maybe it's really physiological. IT tastes like soap to me. And if you put one one leaf of silence on any thing that's all I taste.

oh my god, that's incredible.

And i'd like how things are layer, you know, like a flavorful bubbles up with chocolate and coffee and filler. They have to be layered the right way. And santa, once this is a leaf of slavi, actually, this is a cilantro. At the next table, I can taste IT. It's just so bad.

Okay, so I know what not to get you for Christmas. A bunch of santer, sometimes i'd like to think, believe IT or not, this conserve comes me down in my mind. I think about what in my kitchen is a must have, you know, like just basic things I have.

For example, I have a hand h electric mixer that my mom gave me and IT says general electric on IT. It's from like yeah like the early seventies, I think. And that must have for me, or a rubber spatula, you know, with a little tiny curve, with a concave center. Are there things like that, that you just tools in the kitchen that you just have a love affair with?

Do have, especially for when I got married from before I got married, actually, yes, I was from cowdung .

cowl doors.

everyone, doors.

I do. They had everything at cowl doors, right? Everything, everything. And is IT especially that IT still really works well.

IT works perfectly well. And I can't replace IT. I can't find the same spache. There are either huge spatulas or tiny spatch list, and this is just the right side spatula.

I had one of those two, but it's not from when I before I was married. But i've had IT for probably twenty five years. And I just I love IT.

This is fifty five years and it's still good, I thought.

Refer to your manage. 你是 这次 就 把 人 救 了 你。

Even Better than this spacial up.

Yeah, exactly. So moving out of the kitchen for a moment. Um you're a gardener.

You have a beautiful garden, your house in the hampton. Thank you. I'm insane. A barber, california. And I planted garlic, which i've never planted before I have.

And the girl escapes that they grow on the top. You can grill them. They, they really go away, really. Yeah, yeah.

And I did not know. You break apart your clove of garlic, and you take each individual clove.

and you plan IT plan.

And already popes through the earth. And I just planted at like nine days ago, which is kind of amazing.

you know? Yeah, is gardening teacher patients? I don't tend to be patient, but I like seeing something of all in a garden.

Yes, IT teaches me, does teach me patience, but also it's a thrill because you don't know yes, there's so much um you know if you go away for a week and then you come back to look at your garden, things will have changed and so it's IT always feels like a miracle to me IT .

does and also, the structure of the plant is different from the flower itself. When the flower dies, the plant itself is beautiful, and then the seed pods are different from the flower. So yes, IT just keeps evolving. Yeah, it's just great. Yeah.

it's a reminder of life and the miracle of life, you know, and the circle and the circle. Yeah, it's just gorgeous until the bunnies come and eat my roses.

major roses.

Yeah, those little mother fuckers.

But they're so adorable.

so precious. But I do I do kind of turn into like farma a gregor or elma five I have learned to hate them.

And can you garden ally around because you're in send barba?

Yeah that's great but believe IT are not yes but we do have seasons. So um so certain things look great right now and certain things are dormant and you have .

rosemary hedgers which we couldn't even begin to have here, right?

I know and every time my mother visits SHE cuts I mean, I have rosemary all over the place it's like ground cover and SHE just goes around cutting IT and she's like she's a crazy woman and SHE puts IT into a bag to take home to herself and dollar girlfriends.

I think I never rose. Marry new york.

I know, but that feels special, right? Coming in this garden, we have to take a break. Now my conversation with ana garden continues in just a bit.

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i'm totally aware of IT right? It's not an accident. exactly.

It's not an accident.

I think that if you if you enjoy science, cooking is really is another kind of science yeah and I always think that if you work in sciences, end up with nuclear energy. You end up with gioras or whatever, you know, whatever IT is in cooking, end up with the chocolate cake. So i'll take the take take I said, yeah, so I think they they are very related.

And the way I test a recipe is absolutely scientific. Make a recipe once and i'll analyze what the result is and then i'll change one or two things about IT and then make IT again and then change one, two things about and make IT again. And it's a very scientific .

process for me and you're taking notes along the way.

obviously, right? Yeah, I take not along the way and I start out I think the way you often do in sign with hypothesis what I wanted to be if i'm doing a chocolate cake for I wanna know, I know what texture i'm looking forward, flavor, i'm looking for what range of flavor, like what things I want to have double up. And if I don't know where i'm going, i'll never finish. So I have to have something in my head where i'm going and and I keep testing IT until I kind of hear that paying that says, that's what i'm looking for.

Do recipes come to you and you I mean, like, do you counter them in your head? Are you like improvising your recipe and then you write IT down and you try IT? How does that work?

Not really. I will start with an idea of something that I might have seen in my travels, I might have seen at a restaurant, I might have read in a book, but then i'll read a lot of other people's views on that thing, whatever is, yeah, if i'm making like an italian, we believe to. I just read a lot about reality to.

And then i'll put all the books away and i'll start cooking. wow. So IT took kind of what my idea of what rebel ader should be and how I can make a taste Better.

So you're an improviser as well. Yeah, to a certain extent, exactly. My husband's brother, jim, is a scientist, a very respected scientist that you see irvine. And I remember he was at our house once, and I was cooking.

I was, i'd love to bake, and I was backing, and somebody was in the kitchen with me, and they were measuring out the flower, but they were measuring IT out, but not levelling IT off, leveling IT off. Which I said, no, no, no, no, you, you must level IT off. And I was showing how to do IT actually for all the ingredients, particularly for baking.

And I remember looking at my brother in law, Jimmy, and he had such, um what can I say? Respect an alteration in his face because he was a scientist. He was appreciating the attention to .

the detail.

the detail, yeah the detail.

I follow recipes exactly, even my own. I measure everything. And then because when you've spent the time to make sure it's absolutely perfect, why do you want to start throwing ingredients in there?

Yeah, you want to exactly right. That's right. Especially the Baker.

Yeah, especially the Baker. right? Especially talk about entertaining. I mean, did your family entertain growing up?

My dad loved to have parties. What we did, my mother hated IT, hated IT. But IT was my mother that had to give the party.

So IT was always a struggle. IT was always, I mean, SHE did parties because he liked his friends, but I think IT was was never a happy experience. And as soon as I got married, I was like, I remember being in our first house.

There was a garden apartment in north CarOlina, and I member looking around, going, I can do anything I wanted do. Now, for the first time, I have nobody criticize a mate, nobody telling me what to do. I can do whatever I want.

And I just wanted to have parties I have. So I just, I just started teaching myself, put a cook. IT was then, IT was then, literally, as soon I got married.

Did you like food before then? Where you a food lover? Or did that really cannot? really?

no. And I was never left to cook when I was a kid, really. So I really didn't I don't think I ever connected with that.

I didn't know that IT was something that would be fun to do at all, right? I mean, I think when I was a kid, I didn't even I would do anything. So I thought you I was kind of of the generation when I was in college.

I thought, well, i'm going to college and they'll get married. That's that IT was Jeffery who was like, who said to me, you need to figure out what to do with your life. He said, unless you would do something, you're not going to be happy. And I was like, wow, never, never even occurred to me.

Wow, that's incredible. It's not amazing. Yes, it's amazing. And you were twenty, right?

I was twenty. Yeah, twenty. So that was really the beginning of trying to figure out what I wanted to do.

Yeah, yeah.

And I totally credit him with that.

Yeah and when you started to entertain at at a Young age, did you feel the same anxiety that your mom had or you or you did and you overcame IT or you didn't have IT?

I gave some pretty bad parties .

in the big no way.

I seriously, I remember one party in north CarOlina. I decided to invite everybody brunch, which I hate. But yeah, I invited everybody for brunch and I thought, well, i'm make an outlet for everybody was like .

twenty people of that .

such and I don't you know now I know how to make an obit. It's not easy. I don't know what they held.

I made when I was twenty and I was in the kitchen the whole time. And I think you were like a year to get over that and and give parties. I think my mother was in head anxiety about the people yeah as well as the food. I mean, today I have to say i'm not a comfortable cook. I know if I if i'm giving a dinner party, i'm beside myself with anxiety that is not going to come out, right, even after all this time.

Even after all this time. Are you the same way? I'm afraid? So I really every time if i'm having people over and i'm cooking about an hour before i'm trying to come up with a way to come for IT.

that's really great. I had to done that far. But that's no, I totally I mean.

I want out of this. It's like that was he was fun to set the table desert I made earlier. I love to make dessert. That's okay, but the meal, fuck and forget .

it's the word that's one of the things that I am aware of. One of writing a cook book is how hard IT is to give IT in a party at hard. It's so much work, it's so difficult and it's so much anxiety for unless you're I don't know unless you're a restaurant chef, it's so hard that's why I want the recipe to be really easy. Yeah so you can just put the carrots on the sheet pan, all of all salt, pepper throat in the oven and and hope you remember to take .

them out yeah exactly. There's a story in our family, my husband's grandmother, this was in the deep south, and IT was during the depression. And he was having people over.

And they were not, they were not well off. They were actually pretty strapped for cash back in the day and was a depression. And SHE had people over, and he was sitting at the table.

Her name was ncs and her daughter Charlotte rought in the roast and of the sun charliet trip. And the roast fell onto the ground. And narco brad grandmother, without missing a beach. SHE goes, that's all right. Charta just picked that up and take IT .

back .

and get the other one.

There was no other one. IT was this one more? That's really, that was a really good catch. Yeah, yeah.

He was. That was a really good impervious moment.

Really good impervious moment. God, and you'd like.

you prefer cooking alone. That right? That's what I heard you say. You prefer to be by yourself cooking.

I mean, considering that I do this professionally, I can cook and talk at the same. Yeah, I do IT on TV and that's okay. But if I, if I know IT has to come out perfectly, I mean, Jeffery always know hanging out and talk to me and like Jeffery, I can talk I just like because i'll forget to do something and especially if I really know the recipe, if it's something I make a lot, i'll always forget an ingredient. If i'm not focusing on IT, it's like my attention span isn't that good so I have to really concentrate to get IT right? Yeah, do you feel like you have to do that too?

Yes, I mean, I do. I have a brother in law, Patrick, with whom I can cook because we can stand by each other and not talk. But honestly, I get bothered when people are around me talking or even offering to help and like.

turn, offer to help, just get out of my way. And it's really inhospitable to say, don't touch IT.

Get how to here go into where your cocktail.

i'll be there in a minute. Anyway, it's fine. And at the end of the day, the the only thing is really important is save time with your friends completely.

I keep trying to remind myself, don't get obsessed about whether somethings absolutely exactly the way you wanted to be as long as everybody he's having a good time. And if they feel like we are anxious about IT, it's it's going to rule in the evening. Yes.

it's going to ruin the evening. So we got to get our shit together.

That's what you're saying. So on top of being anxious about about the meal, we have to look like we're not anxious, which makes you more anxious, right, of course. But that will be our little secret that our .

secret you never heard IT for me, never heard IT don't go anywhere. More wisdom from I, A garden after this quick break.

You're known for your your look, your signature style with the button APP shirts and with your beautiful scarves. How would you characterize that style comfortable? Yeah.

everything goes in the washing machine. I mean, yeah, I just, I love these shirts. I got a shirt from ta bits that I just loved, and I asked if they could make IT for me in different fabrics.

And they said, sure. And so I have them in cordery for the winter, and I have them in denon chAmber in for the summer. And I know I can put IT on and feel comfortable and feel like IT looks put together. IT does IT okay.

IT does. Yes, I have to say it's funny because I went back and I started watching the first season .

of the ran did really yeah oh god.

And what I so admire about you in your approach and also your look is that it's classic and it's worked. It's worked from the get go and you stuck to IT. You didn't try to fuss with IT, in my view anyway.

And and that speaks to a lot of confidence. I think in you you have confidence in yourself. Thank you. Do agree with that.

Um I mean, I went say i'm confident about everything, but I think professionally I feel very confident that I know what I want and anything less than that is not okay with me yeah and i've really pushed through a lot of a lot of times where a publisher or a TV producer will disagree with me and i'm just like, know this is the way i'm going to do IT and and I feel that way but I close to like i'm sure that they would like change my outfit all the time. I just not that's not who .

I am and does that? Where does that come from? I know.

I don't know. I really don't. Because when I was a kid, I was always criticize for everything. So I think it's just internal. I just I have this sense for I am and that's who I am and i'm perfectly comfortable with IT. And if you don't like IT.

that's OK not your .

problem for TV.

exactly. Maybe IT was like A A really healthy defense.

Maybe IT was, you know yeah we never know whether it's in the DNA or or whether it's developed, but I love to listen every boy's opinion yeah, and then choose what I want to do. And once i've made that decision, i'm good to go. Are you the same way?

Yeah, I think I am. And I have my group of people that I go to for their take on things.

what I totally do yeah .

but when i'm sure about something or I haven't, as I would say that my instincts are usually pretty right and and the mistakes i've meant in my life have been not following those instinct sometimes.

You know, isn't that interesting, you know but I mean, whatever you're doing, keep doing IT because you're totally beloved.

Oh god, that's so everything. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I think, well, having a healthy marriage helps, right?

IT does, you know, it's funny, was I was just trying somebody recently. People think that being in a marriage is confining in some way, but I find it's just the opposite. It's like a big anchor in the, like, a stake in the middle of my life. And IT actually gives me more freedom because I know I will always come back to that stake, to that it's solid, it's same supportive, it's positive.

Absolutely brand. I've been married, oh my god, thirty six years now. And um you know I could I could never done any of this without him .

in my life.

That's too ah yeah and has your reach changed over the many decades you've been married?

Well, I think it's different now when we lived in washington, IT was much more traditional. I mean, he was the seventies and he worked in the state to party work for kiser and and secretaries to advance. And I worked in ob, you know, was always expected that I was going to cook dinner and kind of roles that we played.

Yes, and i've increasingly dislike those roles. And and so I think my move to buy, especially food store and how my own business was really breaking out of those roles, I think so there was a little bit of at a time where we had to figure that out. But he just he's so intuitive and so respectful of me and so encouraging me to do what I want to do.

That IT wasn't terrible. You, we worked IT out, right? And I think he's freer and i'm freer. So IT became more of a partnership rather than like traditional rules. Yes.

there was a time in .

our life where he was offered to live in tokyo for a year, and I had just signed, at least for a store in his stamp ton. And we like, what are we going to do? And he said, you know what? Let's both do what we want to do, because we can't choose.

If we get to do what I want to do, you'll resent IT. And if if I don't get to do that, I ve stanny campton n then i'll resent IT. So let's just do IT.

Let's do IT for a while and see if if anybody's unhappy will make a change. And IT worked at fine, actually, after a year I went and I said, I said to, you know, I think you need to come home because it's not that are miserable. I'm just fine and I think it's a bad idea. So so we worked now yeah. So you got married pretty Young.

which was typical bt then, but IT was not typical. And really, I think IT was a very old move as a woman, in particular as a working woman in the seventies, to make the decision to not have kids.

No, IT wasn't a strugling at all. I had no interest in having children. none. I just, i've had a terrible childhood, and I was nothing I wanted to recreate. I think now, looking back, I might say, I see my friends with their children, and I understand what IT could be. Yes, but when I was twenty, I didn't want, if anything, to do with that.

And jeff rey felt the same way. I think every would .

have been great parent. He would have really loved having children, but he wanted me to be happy. And IT was okay with .

him nowadays to opt not to have kids. IT feels more sort of almost Normal. But back then, I would think .

then IT wasn't .

IT then IT wasn't. And there you are being sure of yourself.

So I don't know where that came from. I really don't. But I just I don't know where that certainty ty came from, but I was really sure of that.

But it's the same certainty that you were referring to earlier.

I think that be because when I was a kid, I didn't have any choices.

Somebody else made all my choices.

Yeah right. So once I had the power, I really used IT maybe. I mean, that's kind of what you said, which I hadn't thought about.

It's probably very true. Good for you. I love that. You know, one of the things that happened to me over the past years, few years, i've been working on a member. I know you do.

And what was interesting to me is the threads through, I never look back the threads that is so consistent. And one of the things is taking risks. And what what you're saying is really true is how sure I was along the way of what I wanted to reach kind of intersection. IT gave me a very different view of myself that I had, which was surprising.

What was that characterized?

That he gave me more confidence about who I am. I was very surprised the consistency of things through my life. And I didn't I actually didn't realize IT until I started writing. And IT maybe feel good. I'm so looking .

forward to reading IT. Oh, thank you.

Thank you. I mean, there were things I didn't in my twenty years, and I looked back. I think, my god, I was like jumping off a Cliff.

And I had no no idea what was going to happen. Yeah, but I just kept doing IT over over again. And anyway, so that was surprising that I I started doing IT .

so early yeah right kind of been this person for a long time.

right? Yes, really. But wait .

a minute. Do you ever do you ever like you get mad? Do you lose your temper? What pieces you .

off pissed me on passive aggressive people, number one on my list, really, people who tell you something so that you don't have the opportunity to change IT people that lie you basically so that you do what they want you to do that really makes me mad.

Excise all those people from your life.

That's my yeah right. exactly.

Yes, exactly.

I think it's one of the things that you'd get to do when you're older is that when you're Young, you think your relationships are going to go on forever. And as you get older you realize sometimes they don't sometimes you have to choose um your your own um happiness. And as you said, exercise people that are hurting you have you .

had to do that or what?

Not a lot, but i've had to do IT IT was painful.

uh.

because you know I just I hate hurting people. But if it's a relationship that is damaging at some point, you know you try to fix IT, you're try and fix IT again, you try and fix IT again and sometimes you just can't. And so you have to move on.

Yes, that's the benefit of getting older really IT is it's a huge benefit.

You just to say this isn't working right. This is making me unhappy, and I don't deserve to be unhappy.

So get the fuck out of my house.

Yeah yeah.

What draws you to other people?

I think I like positive energy. I like people who are doing interesting things that are in that really show up. They don't come and expect to be entertained.

yeah. Do people do that with you? Do they train, tell you things that are funny to .

make you laugh? They assume i'm GTA be funny and i'm not a big let's not like i'm a big joke teller. yeah. And sometimes i'm very quiet because i'm just because sometimes I am i'm just watching you the listening you're in observing and I think and then sometimes people think i'm being funny when i'm not trying to be funny. Do you know what I mean you to do .

you yeah because they expected.

they expected so um a certain gesture whatever it's I am I didn't mean that to be funny.

but i'll take the laugh well also because you play very humorous characters yeah you play them so brilliantly they forget that that is character playing. It's not necessarily Julia .

oh my god. yes. And they also, I think, particularly with television well, now everything is, I mean, who knows with with computer I should say, I know everybody y's watching IT on all these other devices, but you know you're in their home yeah I mean, you have that same experience with your show, no doubt yeah, in their home. So they feel relaxed with your presence and .

they feel like your friend, correct.

which can be lovely. There is a downside to IT, though. I was one time, I was when I was giving birth to my first son. And this is kind of a growth story, but we can cut IT out if it's too .

repulsive anyway.

And I I was giving birth and and you when you're in labor or they put that monitor around your tummy, yeah and I was in the bathroom and I was naked and I had the thing around my tummy. I was and I was massive, by the way, and I gained like, you know, fifty pounds when I was pregnant. And I was standing there and my water broke.

And all the sudden, a nurse came into the room and I went, my water broke. I'm okay reminding you naked. And he goes, Elaine.

oh my god.

IT was .

IT was so. E lane.

is that crazy? I know, I know. How do you make friends as you get older?

Is that an easy thing to do for you? What is the key of to meeting new people? I guess you probably do in your line of work.

do you? You know, I think one of the things as we get older, jeffrey and I very conscious of we're going to lose friends and they're gone to move to florida task and wherever they move and and it's important to stay connected to people. So we actually make an effort to to meet new people just to make sure that we have A A group of friends that we really care about.

Do travel with friends.

We do. We actually spend a lot of time of paris. So people come to paris with us, which is just having, oh, nice.

yeah. So maybe one of these days you and I should go to paris together. We'd have a good time, go to the markets and get chicken and carrots and cook in my paris kitchen.

exactly.

That would be very good. Be really fun.

Do you speak french badly .

enough so I can converse with the grocer and and the butcher? Yeah, yeah. I can get around. That's good. I wouldn't want to address you in right.

exactly. I I had the opportunity to meet president micro last year. I was at the thing at the White house, did you? Yeah because my grandfather um was french and flew for the free french during the the war.

He was a part of the resistance. And so I went over to micro I said something french. Well, like you badly said that the first sensor two sounds like I know what i'm talking about. And the problem with that, of course, is that then they assume .

you understand the answer.

Yeah, so micro starts, what time of the goat? Me, but I just got shake in my head yet. So anyway, I.

I know that feeling yeah started because .

you don't know exactly totally.

Oh my god, my french has gotten me a lot of trouble along the way. Actually, the one we first have, this apartment, I went to the hair dresser and SHE said in french, which I understood, which you like, IT straight or curly. And I thought, oh, what the hell is paris? Let's make IT curly.

So he gave me this curly hair do. And and I wanted to say to her, my husband sees me. He's going to say, kiss me quick before my wife gets here. So I said, did more memory the best way they have asking a farmer of and SHE looked at me in her absolute heart, and I had no idea what I had said.

So that night I, when I was some friends who speak perfect friends, and I told them when I said, and he started to live, and he said, and best is a kiss, but best say is something else entirely. And what you said was, my husband is gonna for me quick before my wife gets A. I never went back to that hair dressing.

So SHE thought you a brassy day. I like IT. I think actually it's sort of a bet. It's almost a Better expression, fucked me quick. That's great and I love and i'm going to a remember that .

so good french cream get you .

in trouble yeah I guess so right that's really that's really good. Um we have this thing at the end, I ask you a bunch of like quick questions and you can choose to answer them or not whatever you feel like to okay, i'm ready. Yeah, you're ready. Something you go back and tell yourself at twenty one.

Don't worry Better to me of a Cliff. It'll be fine. Yeah, it's the only way you get anywhere.

Keep jumping. Keep jumping.

Keep jumping in.

Is there something you go back and say yes too?

No, I think i've done everything I wanted to do.

You said all the yes. Is that needed to be sad?

No, I think so. This is good. I know, can think of anything I said no to that. I wish I had said yes to no.

Is there something you want to tell me about aging? I mean, not that we're that far apart in age, but is there something you would is there's some little, little bit that could tell me about aging?

Go for a walk twice a week and to be good for you.

good.

I'd like that. I think small changes over one period time makes a difference.

What you mean small changes.

You don't have to run a marathon. I think if you just take a walk twice a week, yeah.

you'll be Better off. Yeah, right? What are you looking .

forward to going to paris? Yeah, actually, Jeffery, I decided, what are we waiting for? And we book two trips that we've never done before, which ones we're going to the arctic and we're going to going, I kind of a safari, but not gone out out into the, you know in with the animals so we have to safer. So that could be fun.

That'll be amazing. That's that's a life change. I've been i've done that and .

it's what did you see a kind .

of everything everything .

yeah and I .

do remember though at the time being of having kids, we went when our kids were Younger, I went to say they're like maybe eight and thirteen. And we went in our first night there and we're out in the in the planes there, and we were actually intense. And our leader guy was saying, okay, now a couple of rules around camp.

There is no running. Nobody can run. And I thought to myself, oh my god, what have we done? I, two reductio boys, and I have turned out for the next two weeks they've gotto sit the hell down. I thought they're, pray.

These kids are, pray. No.

the whole time I was in a panic, I mean, I had a good time, but I was still, I was like, on the edge of my seat the whole time. Well, this has been such a treat to talk with you.

And for me too, thank you so much.

I'm such an admired of yours .

and I of yours. Thank you. I hope to see you soon.

Me too. thanks. Thank you. Okay, time to get my mom and this zoo m call. I got to tell her about this conversation. Hi mom.

I read.

I just spoke with ana garden.

a huge treat and at a treasure to have time with her.

I know, I know.

Why is he called the big foot contested?

Because he works in the White house, and he was riding nuclear policy during the Carter administration and her husband, Jeffery y was also, I believe, in government in any way at at a certain point, SHE became uninterested in that work, and he needed something to do. And jeffrey said, you need to find something to do. That's fun. And so he found this store in the hamptons of food specialty store called the barefoot conTessa. And IT was for sale, and SHE bought IT.

SHE bought IT. Oh my god, I thought, because it's such a great name I know. And you might think, oh my god, this woman is no, he said he is accounted. But but on the other end, he doesn't at mean she's not all like a royal.

you know? No, not at all, except he has. There is something about her that's quite, I think, verified in terms of her approach to food and making IT accessible for everybody um that is unusual what she's done, but something I found really interesting mommy, is that he got married when he was twenty.

She's been married for fifty five years. And SHE made a decision when he got married that he was not going to have kids. And this was based on the fact that he had a very difficult childhood. SHE did not have a lot of joy as a child, SHE didn't have much agency, and SHE couldn't really make decisions for herself. And so SHE made the choice not to have kids, which really strikes me as um something to remark on because nowadays to make that decision is one thing but to make that decision in the late sixties, early seventies is extraordinary, right? Yes, I made like for you mom, in the period of time when you were having kids, did you ever occur to you not to have kids?

Never, never. It's almost like, did the sun come up? You had kids? I mean, I was just like that. I mean, never occurred me.

But I remember one couple that we knew who didn't have children and what they did, they got in the rose gardening and so of time on the rose garden and studying roses and in all kinds of things. So they they pile themselves into the world in a certain way. And I always thought to myself, that's that's their their compensation. And actually, when you girls all left home, that's when I started really gardening with a passion, and I can thinking, that is there is something maternal and in the and in nature, uh, that is a compensation for having children to .

take care of.

But for her, he found a way to to be a mother through food and through nurturing the world. And it's that's a .

great gift.

right? right? Yeah.

yeah. It's exciting to know where she's came from and how she's taken what was a hardship and turned IT into an enormous strength. Hey, speaking recipes. There's one food that inner garden hates in its santron.

Some people hate so antro. And mean, I would say, like, like, twelve percent of amErica hate sotero.

Explain that to me. You explain to me where you got .

that statistics from? Well, I made IT up. You know what? What I think about that is that that you know, you have to check with people about so long to because some people hate IT.

Yeah, that's right. And SHE says that if there's even a tiny leaf, IT really, really bothers her. And I personally cannot get enough cilantro.

Same, same for me, but people absolutely say I can't eat IT.

When we have I and jeffrey over, we won't be making things with cilantro.

We will pretend that that exist.

Oh, well, wait in to actually we just look this up. And there's actually a genetic reason that some people think silent rotates like soap. These particular people have a variation in a group of, we just look this up, all factory reception genes that allows them to strongly perceive the soap.

I flavored elder hides in cilantro leaves, so I M must have that gene. And IT turns out, mom, that is present about four to fourteen percent of the U. S.

population. So you're made up bullshit statistic was spot on. Okay.

where I come up with twelve percent.

that's sir, I don't know. You pulled that out. Your ask.

You are right. Okay, okay, love you, honey. Love you, mommy. I'll see you tomorrow.

OK. We are exactly public safe.

goodbye. Love you.

There is more wiser than me with lemonade. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show subscribed now in apple podcast. Make sure you're following wise than me on social media.

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