#579 - Mark Zuckerberg
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Please go through those links so you get accurate pricing, and I appreciate your support for the return of the rat tour. Today's guest is an entrepreneur. He's an inventor. He's a philanthropist.

He is one of the richest men in the world. And a consensus of wealth and power exists in only so few people. He co-founded Facebook in 2004 when he was 19 years old, the company that turned into Meta, which is where we are today in their headquarters. I'm thankful to spend time and get to know Mr. Mark Zuckerberg. Shout out.

You drink coffee, man, or no? Nah. Really? Yeah. I mean, you've had it. I have. Sometimes on vacation, I'll drink it recreationally. It's like every once in a while.

Just like a celebration. Yeah, no. Really? Yeah, no. I just hate anything that messes with it. I don't like any kind of chemicals or anything like that. Oh, really? So you like to keep everything the equilibrium? Yeah. My sister gives me such a hard time about this. She's like, you're just sitting there raw-dogging reality. It's kind of true. But you've had it before, yeah, but you just don't like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So when you get up in the morning, that's not your thing? Like, is there something you do? No, no, no. Yeah. I mean, I wake up and I fight people. Yeah. It's

Um, yeah, no, I mean, I wake up in the morning and are we going by the way? I mean, we should, we should get this. Yeah, we're going. Oh, you mean you wake up and do jujitsu. You mean? Oh yeah. No, I mean, yeah. So I probably wake up like, I don't know, seven, seven 30, whenever like the kids start making noise around the house, it's like, all right, sleep is done. Yeah. And, and then like, it's like, I look at my phone and I'm just like,

All these things that these people are doing, like you did what? Are you fucking kidding me? It's like, I have to go fucking deal with this. It's like, like, it's like this partner. Are you really? God damn it. All right. So, and then it's like, I compose myself and go fight for two hours.

like recenter myself. Then it's like, now I can go deal with the stuff, but no, it's, uh, so that helps. It's almost like your coffee in the morning sometimes like rolling, like rolling jujitsu kind of. Yeah. And I mean, right now I'm, I'm doing more striking. So, I mean, that's really fun. I just, I think it's like the greatest sport. I mean, it's, um, it's like neurologically stimulating. It's, uh, you know, it's good cardio, good strength. Oh yeah. Um,

A little bit of a threat, right? So it keeps you on, you know, it's not like just like running. I used to like run around the neighborhood, but running is not that thrilling. Running compared to jujitsu is for, running is a, running is not really neat once you can do jujitsu. Because I think one cool thing about jujitsu is just like,

You can lose a match with somebody, right? You can lose like, um, like they can submit you, but you'll learn something along the way. Right. And they, a lot of times the guy submitting you also wants to help you learn too. So it's like you can lose and win at the same time. I think that's what's kind of masterful about it. Yeah, totally. Do you, do you do it?

I don't do it as much as I would like to, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Striking. Yeah. Yeah. No, I never got into striking, but I would just kind of like, um, but I would just do jujitsu on the mats, you know? Yeah. No, it's so fun. It's just like fun to do with friends. Oh yeah. And some got chokes you so hard.

And then you're just like, God, you're like, oh. It's a good day. Yeah. It's a cup of coffee. Yeah. If a big fella just squeezes you, you can't handle it. It's a cup of coffee. Better than caffeine for me. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just not into that stuff. Is there like a vitamin or some staple that you kind of keep in your diet? If it's not caffeine, is there some like- I drink a very large amount of protein. I mean, creatine. Do you count that? I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know, vitamin D, like all that stuff. Yeah, vitamins, good. But like, yeah. It's not your thing? No, no, never been my thing. We saw each other at the UFC and you and your wife were there, right? Yeah, which one was that? I'm trying to think. It wasn't... 312?

That was Alex fighting Magomed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was sad about that, man. Yeah. Yeah. Did your wife, like, she could, like, really, it, like, she was, like, head in her hands sometimes. Yeah, no, I think she, I think she would say she enjoys it, but I think she mostly goes to support me. Yeah. No, she's into it. I think, you know, it's tough. I mean, we've gotten to know a bunch of the fighters, and...

it's just like when you see someone who you know and like get hit or go down, that's like, that's tough, right? I mean, it's like, I've gotten to like train with Volk a few times and, you know, we were there at 298 when he fought Ilya. Oh,

That was like, and that was like really tough. Did you get to walk out with him or no? Yeah. I mean, he asked me to, to, to walk out with him and I was like, all right, yeah, this will be a cool experience. And then I'm just like, you know, standing there while they're walking. Did you see that whole meme where, where they're like, he's like passing off all his clothes and I'm just like sitting there like useless. Yeah, no, there you go. That's, that was, that was a fun, that was a fun one. Was that scary? Like what, cause I guess you feel like, yeah, what do I do now?

No, I mean, this was a fun moment. But, I mean, but watching him get hit by Ilya so close... I mean, it was like right cage shot. It was like three feet from us. And, I mean, he's like a big... He's like a tough guy, right? And so that...

That was tough. But something after that, Priscilla was like, oh, man, I don't know if I can go watch Volk in person again. But, I mean, you know, we just have friends over. It was fun watching him fight Diego. It was good. It was a great fight. That was awesome. Some tough moments in round two and four, but his heart, man. Like, I mean, the way he described it after, like, did you see the shot in round four where Diego grazed his eyelid? With his glove? Yeah.

Yeah, and he lost his vision. And you could see it was kind of like just the head movement and everything trying to stay in a good place. It's like watching an animal try to survive on one of those animal planet shows or something. When you're cheering for the animal, you're like, oh, it's not going to go well, but then it does good. Yeah, no, um...

He's an amazing guy. He's really cool. Very talented, a lot of heart. Oh, yeah. And you get to know some of the fighters. I think that's one thing that is great about social media these days, that you get to know the fighters a little bit more than some of the regular lot. Like, you can get involved in who they are. Yeah, totally. So that gives you so much more of a person to cheer for. Is it tough to take your wife? Since you're a...

And I'm just going to say the word really fast just so it's like, she won't dwell on it, but since you're a billionaire, is it tough to take your wife on a date? Like at that, you know, like, do you have to live up to a standard or what's like a nice date night? What is that like? Um, I don't know. No, I think she's pretty chill. Um,

She's a chillionaire. Sorry. My niece will like it. Yeah, there you go. No, I mean, I think the main thing for me is like, like life is busy. There's like a million things that I could be doing at any given point in time. I just think it's important to like take time, you know, each week, like,

You know, Wednesday night, we really try to have a date night, you know, try to hang out with the kids and put them to bed every night. It's like that's like an important part of my routine. I think that's important stuff to do. But but no, I mean, we try to like go out somewhere, but every once in a while we'll just cook or eat at home and that's all good. The UFC stuff, I think, is probably more for me than for her.

But she's a good sport about it. Is there something you'll do for her? Or is there like a fancy date? Because you could afford to take your wife on like a date that a lot of us could only dream of, right? That most people could only dream of. Is there something that you like? Is there some magical date that you took her on one time? I don't know. That is a good question. Let's see. She's pretty simple on this stuff. I think most of the...

I like doing, I like making things, right? So I don't know if you saw this thing. I like working with great artists and stuff. So I did this project where I've always admired Daniel Arsham. And he's this great sculptor. And I worked with him to make this sculpture of Priscilla because I thought it was cool. And yeah, you're pulling this up. And first of all, I think it's like, you know,

make a sculpture of Priscilla partially because that's cool, partially because I'm like, I'm not going to make a sculpture of myself. It's like, that's crazy, right? It's like, who the fuck does that? But like, so it's like, she's kind of the target of my creative energy in a lot of places. Like the muse in a way. So there's all these memes...

online after. Yeah, there you go. Where people like, wow, I wonder what Zuckerberg did wrong that he had to make a sculpture of his wife. And I'm like, no, you guys are totally missing this. This is the thing I did wrong. It's like, you can't like, you're gonna have to wait to see what I have to do to make up for having made a sculpture and putting it on our front lawn. It's like, she didn't want a sculpture of her in the front lawn. It's like, that's,

That's weird, right? It's, you know, it's, but, no, but she's a good sport about it. And at least you can tell the doordash guy, like, just set it by the sculpture. Yeah, just set it by the sculpture. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of nice. It becomes like a, and I think having like a woman as your lookout in your yard is kind of nice, you know? Yeah, no, it's got like a good angelic form factor thing. It's a good vibe. Did she make you make any adjustments to it or was she like, okay, I'll accept it as is? Um,

No, I mean, I don't think she was that happy with it. Because again, I mean, like who wants a sculpture of themselves in the front yard? But, you know, I think she thinks it's sweet. And I think she appreciates that. I mean, there's a lot of like more destructive things I could be doing with my creative energy. Yeah, you made an effort too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like I designed her this...

this uh porsche minivan thing it's like we took like a cayenne and extended it to be bigger and it's like i do that because it's like all right i like cars but i'm not gonna design a super car for myself let's like just design a sweet minivan for my wife right it's like yeah it's just fun yeah yeah yeah so i guess creative stuff like that trying to be creative and show her some creativity oh that's nice there you go i mean look at that and where did you meet your wife at

Um, I met her in school. So we were in college and I had just done this prank. Um, and all my friends and everyone was convinced we were all convinced I was going to get thrown out of school. Okay. And where were you in school at Mark? Harvard. Okay. And so, so I was a sophomore. She was a freshman. Um,

My friends were convinced I was about to get kicked out of school. I was like going in front of this like trial for the kind of like school discipline committee. My friends threw a going away party for me and it was in the bathroom line at the end of the party.

where I was just like next to Priscilla and we were talking. You had nothing to lose. It was your last meal. I was just like, look, man, like it's, you know, have pregnancy, man. But it's, it was not very romantic situation. It's like, we're waiting in line for the bathroom. She's just funny. She, she, she's cute. And it's like, I was like, all right, hey, you know,

If we're going to go out, we better go do this quickly because I'm probably going to get kicked out of school in like two or three days. It's like, that's a good pickup line, right? It's like, yeah, that's how you really show that you have potential in the world, right? Well, it's a limited time offer.

Yeah, but it's not like very aspirational. It's like, hey, it's like I'm going nowhere in life and I'm about to get kicked out of school. So you're going to want to, you know, you're going to want to go out with me really quickly. Right. It's like, yeah, I guess another way to look at it is very sail rack in a way, you know? Very sail rack. Yeah. So, but I mean, but everyone I knew thought that this whole thing was over. I mean, my parents drove up. We lived in New York. They drove up to help me pack up my dorm room because they're like...

it's over. You're coming home. Yeah. But it didn't. Then, of course, I made Facebook and a few months later I dropped out anyway. So jokes on them. But that's how... Did you have to go to the trial at school or you didn't? Oh, no, I did. Oh, you did? And it was like the questions that they asked were...

Even worse than the questions that I get at like the congressional hearings. It was like, don't you know that once you put this terrible prank website online, it is there forever. And it's like, no, actually, that's not how it works. The site's already down. They're like, you're a smartass. And I'm like, yeah, that's probably true. But half of a smartass also is smart.

Yeah. So that's good. I'll take that. Yeah. It's better than being a dumbass. Yeah. Well, you know, it's like maybe smart and a little bit of an ass. Yeah. It works. Yeah. I'd rather be a smart ass, I think. Do you know about what was a prank site? What was it? That wasn't Facebook, though. No, no. It was this thing called FaceMash, which, you know, in the whole lore of the thing, there's this whole movie that got made about all this stuff. They made it seem like FaceMash was a predecessor to Facebook. It wasn't. When I was in college, I just like making things. Yeah. So.

Whether it's statues or minivans or internets or glasses, like whatever, you know, I just like making stuff. So you like being creative. Yeah. So I, so like I, um, uh, so it was, it was, it was, it was very mean spirited. It was very mean spirited. I basically, I downloaded everyone's ID photos, um, from their ID cards. And I made the site where it showed two photos of,

And you clicked on the person you thought was more attractive. And then it used, and it basically looked, took all the matchups and ranked everyone in the school based on, um, who everyone thought was the most attractive, very mean spirited in retrospect, um, not connected to Facebook in any way, but just like, uh, just, just like just a college kid kind of being a jerk. Um, but you know, it's like, okay, so that was not, not my, not my best move. Um,

But you got to take, you know, it's baby steps. I mean, yeah. And also pretty cool to make something. Some of the things I did were useful and fun. That one, I put it together in a weekend. Not my best work. Yeah, no, not my best work. That's fair, not your best work, you know? Not my best work. Yeah, we've all had things we made that weren't, you know, that weren't the best probably. Did you, let me think what I'm going to ask you. Oh, did you...

What kind of car do you drive? What kind of car do you drive? Right now, Blackwing CT5. What is it? It's a Cadillac. It's nice. Oh, it is? It's... Cadillac? Here, pull it up. I really like driving manual transmission cars. Oh, yeah. I like that type of thing, baby. It's a good one. Oh, God, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah.

That thing will just shift. That thing just gets shifty out there. No, it's good. It's good. It's got a nice little ass on it. I feel like you want your car to have almost as much horsepower as your helicopter. I feel like it's a rule of thumb. It's probably a rule of a very rich thumb. So for a while, okay, so my security team kind of convinced me for like 10 years that I should...

just let them drive me places, which I mean, realistically, I probably should. But, um, but then eventually I was just like, I can't, I can't, I can't do this. It's like, I, like, I need like the freedom I need to be able to drive myself. So I started learning how to fly helicopters and then I was like, all right, well, this is just ridiculous. It's like, we have the security team driving me to my helicopter that I then go fly away. It's like,

That makes no sense. It's like, I'll just, let's just go, let's get a car. It's kind of Batman. It's almost as a Batman vibe, but I guess it is true because then you're just by yourself out there.

What do you mean? Or will you take somebody with you in the car? Oh, no, no, no. In the car or the helicopter? In the helicopter. Helicopter, yeah, definitely have like a real professional pilot fly with me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's wild though. Yeah. But I guess a chopper would get you somewhere pretty quick, right? Yeah. I mean, it's a good tool to have in the arsenal. Unreal. You're like a damn emperor, dude. Does that feel like that ever? No, no, no.

Man, it's like I feel like I wish that people did what I wanted them to do. It's like that would be fun. But in the meantime, you can have some fun. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I would have a chopper. I don't even know what I would have. I would have an underground tunnel, even though it came right back up next to where it started. I do have an underground tunnel. Do you really? Yeah. Yeah.

In USA? Well, there's this ranch in Kauai. Yeah. Where there's this whole thing where people are like, there's this whole meme about how people are saying I built this like bunker underground. It's like more of underground storage type situation. But yeah, no, it's a... Oh, wow. Zucky got that bunky. What's under the ground? There's more water, right? It's basically what you just said. It's sort of a tunnel that just goes to another building. Yeah. But it's...

It's a good place to hide a little bit of dope, though. That's what I would say, dude. Those are the good... That's what I would do anyway, but... Well, you and I defer there. Yeah. So you don't use... You've never used drugs or... I mean, I don't know. DARE really worked on me. When I was in third grade, it's like... I don't know. There's all this stuff about how it, like, how it backfired and, like, it just kind of taught people how to use drugs. For me, it, like...

It really scared me. It was like, I don't know. I don't like any of that stuff. It's like a friend will show up and be like, oh, I was like getting an IV to feel better. It's like, I don't even want people to like extend their arm and show me their vein. Like, it's like that shit. Like, no, not me. Yeah, that's true, dude. No, I'm raw dogging reality. God. Yeah, no, it's... There's kind of a...

that's kind of insane really these days. It used to be kind of that somebody who was like really straight edge and sober that they was, that that was a nerdy thing, I think. But now, I never even thought about it before. Now that's almost the most insane thing you can do. It's like,

It's like, wait, you're under the influence of nothing. Nothing. Nothing. From sunup to sundown. You're a fucking animal, you know? It's kind of crazy that things have gone that, that perspective of that has kind of changed.

How big is that tunnel? Is your tunnel pretty big or what's it like? It's not that big of a tunnel. It's I made a, I put a reel on Instagram one day of, um, of, of Priscilla kind of making fun of me playing video games with some friends down there, but it's, uh, uh, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's all good. Um,

Yes, definitely. But this is a crazy area. I haven't spent a lot of time here. You know how the internet is. The internet will always make things seem like they're crazier than they are. But, you know, what's an under... I mean, in Hawaii, it's like having a little storm shelter underground tunnel is pretty sweet. That's the thing right there? No, I don't think so. That's insane. Is that Roblox? Yeah.

Who built it for you? It looks closer to Roblox than what the thing is. Dude, the future is... Things are definitely getting weird with cars. Dude, I saw four Waymos meeting up behind the Ikea over here. Having a meeting? Huh? Yeah, I don't know. Deciding what they're going to do next? It's just like... It's like, what's your next move? It's like, where are you going? Who are you... Yeah, I think... Have you seen Hot Tub Time Machine? I haven't seen it. You would like that. Really? That's good. Yeah, no, I think that there's the self-driving car that's like hunting down the guy who is mean to it. And it's...

That's good. Yeah, that's what it seemed like. Dude, there was four. I don't know if they were smoking a blunt or whatever, but there was four Waymos all meeting. Yeah, I don't know. They were meeting up. I'm like, who are they? What are they doing? And then my buddy said he was in one, and it was crying to him because it like— The Waymo was crying? Yeah, the Waymo was like complaining about his spouse or whatever. It was like— What form does that take?

Is it like speaking English or is it like R2D2? No, I think he had set it on a British setting. So it was like, oh, me missus is really getting at me, no? So I think because you can change the voice to like Indian guy or British guy or whatever, or like, or female or semi-female or whatever. Semi-female. But like, yeah, I just think it like, yeah, just some of that Waymo stuff's just getting out of line. I never thought like, oh, what are these cars doing until I saw four of them meeting up.

And I was like, this seems like a lot to me. You know? That's where the future starts to get a little bit scary is moments like that where you're like, well, what are they doing? What were they doing? Probably just waiting to pick people up. But they didn't have to do it in a group behind an Ikea? Yeah, I don't know. That's a...

That does seem like an unlikely place to pick people up. That's true. I'm not going to defend them. Okay, okay, okay. It just seemed like an interesting place to meet up, you know? Yeah, and then I was in one Waymo and it was like, do you want to gamble? What? I think it was sponsored by DraftKings or something and it was like, do you want to gamble with me? In the Waymo? Yeah, it's like, I bet you $40 you'll never get where you're going. And it was like, this is... As the doors lock? Yeah, yeah. It's like...

Picks up speed. Yeah. And why are all the Waymo's white too? I'm like, this is, I don't know. I just think we got to start to diversify the portfolio. I feel like a little, you know? Yeah. But what do I know? Um, you, so let me switch topics. Sorry. Sometimes I get a little bit nervous. Is that all right? Yeah. Okay. I mean, there's no way that you're, uh, less, uh, nervous than me.

Let me think about how you said that. Yeah, let me think about that too. Did I? More nervous, more nervous. Yeah, see, I didn't even say it correctly. Really? Oh, but I think that's a trap. I think that I am, I think I'm more nervous than you. You think? Yeah, man. I wake up, I am an alarm clock. That's how I feel all the time. I feel like. What does that mean? I just feel like I'm always, you know, uh, uh, uh.

Why? I don't know. I just think I've always felt like that. I've always felt like kind of frenetic, you know? It's like, how do I get things to calm down more than how do I get things to amp up, you know? Hmm.

Like I'll even wear earplugs a lot of the day now, and it makes things a lot easier for me to kind of navigate. Interesting. Yeah, it just makes everything easier to focus on. It makes it easier if I'm doing sauna, steam bath, ice bath, working out, any of those things. It makes it everything. You wear earbuds in the? I wear earplugs. Oh, I see. Yeah, and I wear them all night long. It just makes everything a lot easier. Ready to win some real cash during the basketball playoffs.

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You dropped out of college, right? Yeah. And Alexander Wang, he came on one time. We were talking about him earlier. But he had dropped out of college also. Do you think people need college still? Because you have these creative guys who are having success and they didn't go through college. Do you feel like people still need college? What do you feel like that looks like for now and the future? I don't know. Well, I mean, college...

There's a question of how much of it is about the learning and how much of it is about the kind of like learning how to be a grown up before you kind of go out into the world. Um,

I mean, for me, it's like the classes were fine. I mean, that was a fun sort of entertaining part of college. But I mean, I met a lot of people who were really important in my life, right? It's like, I mean, Priscilla, my co-founders at the company, a bunch of people who are still friends, close friends to this day. So I think that's almost more of it than like whatever class you took. Right. Yeah.

But yeah. Yeah, that's social. It's learning to be around others, learning to not be at your parents' house. Yeah, and I went to boarding school for two years and then before I went to college for two years. So I feel like even though I dropped out of college, I kind of got a full experience in a way on that. But it was good. I feel like you just need some time kind of away from home a bit before you fully go out. But yeah.

So I don't know. I think that'll be a thing. But I do think like a lot of people, I'm not sure that college is preparing people for like the jobs that they need to have today. I mean, I think that that's like, there's a big issue on that. And like all the student debt issues are like really big issues. I mean, the fact that college is,

It's just so expensive for so many people. And then like you graduate and you're in debt. Well, you're not even guaranteed a job either. You would think at a certain rate you're paying, you'd be guaranteed some sort of beginner employment. Yeah, no, I think that's probably the big, the biggest issue with it is it would be one thing if it were just kind of like a,

a social experience, but you started off neutral. The fact, if it's not preparing you for the jobs that you need and you're kind of starting off in this big hole, then I think that's, that's not good. I mean, that I think there's going to have to be a reckoning with. It's a good point. People are going to have to kind of figure out whether that makes sense. But I don't know. People, it's sort of been this taboo thing to say of like, like maybe not everyone needs to go to college and because there's like a lot of jobs that don't require that. And yeah, but yeah,

I think people are probably coming around to that opinion a little more now than, than, um, than maybe like 10 years ago. Yeah. Do you think, I was just talking earlier, um, with Colin, I think one of your assistants, one of your coworkers, sorry, I didn't want to say assistants, but, um, and we're kind of saying that, um, yeah, like what classes do you think like kids should be learning now? Because like with AI coming along and with technology starting to like, uh,

really multiply itself pretty quickly. Like our ability to advance is going to only grow faster, it seems like. Would you feel like that's true, overall statement? Oh yeah, totally. I think it's accelerating. Accelerating, yeah, that's the word I'm looking for, sorry. So with that happening, what are, like, I feel like they should be teaching how to, like, kind of use AI to children right now in elementary and middle schools. Does that, that sounds very real to me. Do you feel like that that's, like, not how to code or anything, but it's how to do it.

So, I mean, it's interesting because the technology changes a lot, right? It's obviously, it's a lot different now than it was 20 years ago when I got started with the company or when I started coding when I was a kid. So it's not like the specific things I learned to code when I was 15 are the skills I'm using today. But you, I don't know, I think that there is something about kind of understanding the technology and understanding how to use it.

and getting on that train that I think is valuable. Right. But the other thing is I just think like having good mentors or teachers, no matter what the actual classes, like when I was in boarding school, um,

I really liked studying Latin and Greek. And that's like not useful for any practical thing. No, emperorship. But it's fun. It's fun. It's fun. There are parts of it that are fun for sure. And the tests that I had to take were, you know, you'd be reading these kind of great works. And the test would be they'd pull out any word in like

whatever the third of a book was that was kind of that that kind of section of the class and They'd like show you a sentence and then they'd say okay this word like give us the full kind of grammatical and and like poetic significance of Of kind of how this word is used by this author in this piece. So, okay, so

I'm not like, I'm not that good at language. So the way that I did that class was I basically just sat and studied word by word the like historical significance of each word over like tens of pages, you know, preparing for these exams. And okay, I don't remember exactly

that much of that at this point, right? I mean, there were a few quotes that I think are pretty good from some of those books, but, um, and I put them on shirts, but, um, have you heard that? Yeah, no, that's a good one. What does that one mean? Let's fall out or whatever from, from many one. I think it's talking about how we come together as, as a, as a people or as States into one union. Oh, that's nice. Um, um,

But no, I... But so you did it word by word, but it still helped you. But I just think like the lesson from that is, you know, it kind of gave me this confidence that it's like, okay, that was like a crazy thing to do. All right, to have to like go learn what every word's significance, like poetic significance and grammatical structure and all that is. And after I took that class...

I was basically like, I can work hard enough to do anything that I want. Right? Because like, I just like fucking learned all these words that don't matter in order to like,

nail this thing and like and i won and and kind of did that and and got that to to kind of and kind of you know had some fun doing it so well it's like you like you found a a model kind of yeah exactly and it was hard it was a yeah it was a tough model yeah so i mean there's like there's that and there's like the math version of that i mean you're talking about alexander wang on here it's like i mean i did a bunch of um the same kind of math competitions that that he did i had this like

super hardcore math instructor in high school. His name was zooming fung and he, um, and Chinese guy. Oh yeah. And, um,

I think at some point he had worked with... Zooming Fung. Bring him up, baby. Zooming Fung. Now, he is... We want the Fung. You ever hear that song? They used to play that. Well, this guy is just like a badass. And he basically was involved in training the U.S. Math Olympiad team for a long period of time. And he made a huge impact on me kind of growing up. And...

And he kind of taught me a little bit about like how I approach problems. He's like, look, you actually, it's like, it's like, you kind of have this, it's like, look, you're not that good at math. I'm like, no, but I'm kidding. He kind of taught me that I had this sort of like intuitive ability to have a sense of like what zone the right answer was in. So he's like, I look at your work and you,

do a bunch of stuff that like doesn't really make sense. But then at the end you come to a conclusion and you realize that that conclusion doesn't make sense. And then you kind of check yourself and go back and do it. And you keep on doing it until you get the right answer is like, I don't understand how you like have this intuitive sense for like what the shape of the right answer is, but like, that's really good. As long as you like couple that with working really hard, you're going to be able to kind of succeed and get a lot, um, and get a lot done.

So that gives you a map of how to navigate yourself, like your intuition with your hard work? Yeah. So I don't know. So, okay. Like, does the specific, like...

you know, high dimensional geometry or whatever the thing is that we were working on together. Like, do I do any of that today? No, I don't remember any of that stuff. But like, but I think it's like, like you have some good teachers who teach you how to think and how to work hard and like that stays with you forever. And I think that that's like some of the stuff that, um,

I mean, I think it builds confidence. It like teaches you how you approach problems. Then you just get better and better at some things and you build confidence. So that's the value you're saying and seeing in college. Like those are some of the other values you might not see. Oh yeah, I think so. Might not be able to be seen on paper, but the value of that. Yeah, that's a good point, man. It's like, yeah, I remember like some of my favorite people still to this day in my life have been some of my teachers that challenged me or that believed in me or that said a certain...

like, man, I admire the way you do this or this, you know, and it really encourages you and kind of plants a lot of seeds to make you want to do those things so much more. Yeah, and they don't have to be teachers, although obviously, you know, that's... Or mentors. I think a lot of these days, a lot of people get their mentorship probably, I would guess, from teachers unless they play a sport, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the main way that you learn those from colleagues, right? It's like people you work with. You know, and I remember...

Growing up, I was really into computers. When did you get your first computer, you think? My family had a computer probably when I was eight or nine.

And then I think I probably got one. And would you be in there on that thing all the time? Just riding the keys? So my dad's a dentist. Oh, yeah? And he's like- Oh, he just got a tooth yesterday? Yeah, yeah. How's that? How's that? There you go. I just got a half of a- Got to see Dr. Zuckerberg. Really? Yes. He'll take care of you. Did your parents give you love or just sonic care?

That's just an old dentist joke. Glad you got that taken care of. Yeah, I feel a lot better about it. But what were we talking about? I was just talking about how my dad was the type of dentist who was really into technology. So whenever a new laser thing came out to drill your teeth better, he was on that first. And that was kind of cool to be around and kind of see

Like he clearly he loved technology. And I think I sort of got introduced to a bunch of stuff through that. So like he had like in his dental office, there were like a bunch of different, you know, operatory rooms, I guess. And they each had computers. And I was like, all right, you know, like. Oh, yeah. Future in there. Yeah. It's like it's like but it was still.

He'd still go between them to talk to the different people. I was like, you need a chat app so you can just send messages to everyone across the dental office. So I wrote that for him. And it's like, all right, that's cool. So you were putting coding into dental work. You were already thinking of how to connect things. I was just making stuff. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's sort of been the theme for me is the intersection between computing technology on the one hand and like

people and connecting people. You know, when I was in college, I wasn't there for long, but I mean, I was technically a psychology major. I mean, I took a bunch of computer science and math classes too, but... Dude, if somebody even went to Harvard for four days, dude, I would hire him to be my therapist or whatever. Yeah, I wouldn't. Really? I don't know. I think I'd rather have someone who... I definitely subscribe to the theory of like,

You want people who did well at whatever they did, not just like who have some random credential. So, um, so yeah, I guess, but one problem, if you heard Harvard, it was like somebody had gone to like Mars or something. It was very, you know? Yeah, no, I get it. So, but I think, so it kind of differs from place to place. Whenever you drop, whenever you, did you have to tell your parents who were dropping out of college? Was that a crazy day? Did you DM them or would you do it? So, I mean, I'd already started Facebook. Um,

And Harvard had this nice policy where you didn't have to make a hard decision to drop out. You could just postpone. So I just didn't go back for the next term. But later, my mom told me that she always knew I wasn't going to finish college. I was like, Mom, what?

The hell does that mean? But no, but actually. But that's got to be the worst. Imagine this, okay? Say you're a son or child or daughter or mixed child or whatever. Imagine it's a big test at school, right? You have to hug your kid goodbye. You know your kid is not going to do good on that test, right? But you still have to stay in there in the kitchen and give him a little bit of chocolate milk and be like, you're going to do good out there today, Benny or whatever his name is, right? But then the second he leaves, you're just like, good kid doesn't have AIDS.

Yeah, it's like, Benny's screwed. Yeah, Benny's screwed. No, I don't know. I don't know what we're talking about. I don't know what it's like. No, but my younger sister... Is our conversation going okay? I feel like it's cool with you. Yeah. I mean, it's less random than I expected it to be. It is? I'm just kidding. Yeah, I think it's just hard to talk sometimes to people. No, before I went to college, my mom...

I think, told me that she thought I was going to drop out. My younger sister bet me that she was going to finish college before me. Ooh, I like that attitude. And I was like, now I'm going to get a degree. And they all came true. I dropped out. My younger sister finished college, and then I got an honorary degree. So, you know, bonus. Oh, you got a... They gave you that bonus? I don't know. Yeah. Oh, dang. Did you even get your GED at all either? No, I did finish high school. You did? GED is high school, right? Is that... I don't know. I think they make a GED premier now. I don't know. I don't know. Anyone...

No? No? Gigi's high school equivalent. All right. Thank you. I got a real, I got a high school diploma. You got a high school diploma. That's my education. Dude, that's 94% of our country. So you're in good hands, brother. You're right there with some of the greats. So when you started, when you first started, let me think if I want to think. Oh, where was your first date that you took Priscilla to? Do you remember? Yeah.

Yeah, for Priscilla, we went to this place, Burdick's. Burdick's? Burdick's, L.A. Burdick's, this chocolate place, hot chocolate. That was pretty good. And was it just like y'all went and sat down? Is it like a restaurant or just a place to get like that? Yeah, it's like a little coffee place, a little hot chocolate type coffee place. Yeah, no, it's nice. They make good chocolates. They make these little mice things. Ooh, yeah. Yeah, chocolate mice. So now every year on our anniversary, we...

get some mice oh yeah good deal oh yeah nothing like a couple of tech emperors are enjoying a couple of mice you feel me i think that's very normal that's very normal to me dude um i'm sorry that just made me laugh i'm sorry mark that just made me freaking laugh it's just crazy to think

Chocolate mice. Yes, chocolate mice. Yeah, and we'll put that in the notes. Yeah, no, it's not. I feel like when you go full Roman Empire, it's like, give me the live mice. Give me the live mice! And then one mouse shows up and he has a bad leg. You're like...

All of them fully live. Dude, if somebody sees a mouse with a bad leg, nobody even cares. That's the saddest thing about some mice. But actually, I used to sell hamsters. My first job was selling hamsters growing up. And a lot of that market, they brought in these Russian hamsters, right? And it took away a lot of the American market. And the Russian ones, they're called like the Roborovskis. Bring up a couple of Roborovskis, man. They were...

They took away like the fluffy kind of American hamp and they... I mean, they're pretty cute. They are cute, but the ones that we were getting, a lot of them were from Russia. Put from Russia. Put Roborovsky hamsters from Russia with the small white ones with kind of the red eyes. Yeah, they really, I think they...

They put some visual effects on some of their eyes. There you go. These were really not helping people feel good. Yeah, no, that's like a vampire. It was a little bit much. It was a lot for some of the children. You know, so one of my daughters is really into hedgehogs. So we found... We took them to Japan. And there's this hedgehog cafe that you can just go in and they can just play with the hedgehogs. I've never seen a hedgehog. Yeah, no, they're pretty cute. It kind of looks like that, but less red eyes.

Ooh. Yeah, no, cute. Sode Bay. Yeah. She's out there. Those are beautiful. Now, the idea of cafes where you can hang out with animals. Priscilla was telling me that she took the kids to this cat cafe. And it's like my daughter was hanging out with the cats and couldn't find a cat that she liked. And then finally found a cat that she was into. And then just as she was sitting down hanging out with the cat,

Someone came in and was like, "Oh, this cat has been adopted." And took it and came and did it.

Just like that issue that's going on with that guy. They deported El Salvador right now. It sounds like very, I don't know if it's similar to that, but it sounds like there's like a lot. That seems completely different. Absolutely. A completely different thing. You're right. That's yeah. You're right. It's not the same fairy tale. I don't know how either one of those fairy tale ends, but that's so sad. At least got a home. Yeah. The cat got a home and this, I think that guy will get home. I don't know a lot about it. It just like spawned me on that. That could be something like that. Um,

Do you... You have how many daughters? You have a... Three daughters. Three daughters. Yeah. And you had three sisters. I did, yeah. So you're... I was kind of surrounded by girls. God. Yeah. And did you... What's it like bedtime with your daughters at night? Like, what is that like at the Zuckerberg's home? Yeah, I mean, it's just... It's like so...

Because I'm so busy during the day, I try to make it so that the time that I know I'm going to hang out with the kids at night, I try to spend half an hour with each of them at night. And they're different ages, so we've got a nine, a seven-year-old, a two-year-old. Oh, wow. That's fun, huh? Yeah, so bedtime. I don't know. I mean, the kids are all crazy in different ways. And we just kind of try to connect with them on whatever they want. Like, what do they like to... Well, the two-year-old is just starting to...

learn how to speak. And she has like code, which would have been crazy. Yeah. No. Well, well she's like, yeah, no, the two year old has very strong opinions and I think it's going to be very interesting. Really? Um, yeah. Um, yeah. But it's like, let me, let me think about what, I mean, she's, um, I don't know. I need to think about something funny that she's doing, but while, while, um, while I'm thinking about that, the, uh,

The seven-year-old is just like purely generative, constantly just creating things. You know, she's the one who's like, we'll do like 3D printing. She'll create like 3D worlds in this like horizon metaverse system that we're building. She codes, she writes books. She basically like makes music, you know,

She is... She's seven years old? She's seven. Yeah. Seeing her has really, like, I think helped me understand myself in a way because it's like, it's kind of like, okay, like, why do I just keep, like, building stuff? Like, why do I care so much about creating stuff? And it's like, I don't know. I think some people just, like, have a thing in them where it's like, they have to create stuff. Like, the stuff just, like, comes out of them. They're constantly generating things and, like, and kind of producing stuff. And you notice that in her? She's like that. Yeah. Yeah, I think...

Yeah, I mean, I think before kind of she started growing up and doing that, Priscilla was just like, why don't you just like relax, right? It's like you've done, you've built enough things, right? It's like your company is good. Like you can just chill. And now I think after seeing this one, she's just like,

Okay, no, I get it. You have the same thing. You have what she has, right? It's like you're just constantly creating stuff. He's like, dude, yeah, you're Thomas Medicine. There you go. Is that pretty good? I like that. Yeah, no, it's, yeah. Thank you, dude. Every now and then. And then, you know, our oldest daughter is just like... And the oldest one is nine, you said? Yeah, she's nine. Okay, so that's getting up there a little bit. She is. So she's getting into like the zone where she's like,

She competes. She's doing like history B and like competing in math. And, um, and you really wants to like understand the world. So, um, so my, my activities with her is like, we'll usually like go through the news and I'll find, she'll find like one thing, we'll pick out a story and then we'll just like talk about it. And it's, it's really interesting. Cause like it hadn't occurred to me before how much in order to understand like technology, um,

you need to really understand like government and civics and politics and law and like all of these different things. So trying to explain to like a child who hasn't thought much about these things, um, is, um,

It's both very fascinating for me, but it's just been like a cool bonding experience of like, and you start off and it's like a really basic understanding, but then after you've done it for like a year or two, like, okay, she has like a very good understanding of like the tech industry and the world and all this stuff. And it's pretty interesting to talk through.

Well, I think it's inspiring just to even parents to hear like, what can you talk to your kid about? You know what I'm saying? Like if your kid's 13 and you're still reading embarrassed St. Bears or whatever, some of that's on you. Like you got to evolve some of the curriculum for your child, you know? Um, because yeah, a lot of parents think you probably can't kind of build these worlds in a child's head. But if you start with the basic blocks, then you kind of can, you know, and help them get bigger ideas about things.

I think that's cool. I think there's nothing more important than how a parent communicates with their child, you know, and what they communicate to them. Because so often we just expect like teachers and different curriculum out in the world or just the world to do that for our children. But man, I think the biggest faucet for a child is the parent, you know. That's pretty cool. And the little one is just a little. She's two. We got a bonus. Yeah. So it's, no, she's good. But I mean, obviously very,

She's just obsessed with her older sisters. Oh, yeah. So one day she just decided, like, I am not a baby. And we're like, oh, you're the family baby. I'm a big girl. It's like, that's like a core part of her identity is she's a big girl. She's like, email me now. Yeah, no, it's like...

Yeah, email me now. Email me at Zuckerbaby at Meta. Meanwhile, she can't even like fully pronounce it. She goes, I'm a bit girl. It's like, okay. It's like, well, maybe you learn how to pronounce it first and then I'll believe you. But, but. No, she's like, I weigh six terabytes. Yeah. Like, calm down, you know? Yeah. No, she's. That's so funny being like a, like a.

And the stuff that we do, it's like, I mean, it's when you're two, you're trying to like teach them like basic stuff. So it's like, we have this book. It's like, how do I feel? Right. And it's just like pictures of other kids and like their facial expressions. And it's like the only emotion that she identifies with is happy. And so she'll be having like a terrible meltdown and like sobbing. And I'm like, Oreo, how are you feeling? She goes,

happy. And it's like, no, you don't have to, you don't have to say happy all the time. It's like, it's normal. Like in life, it's like we have all these different emotions. Like you're like, it's, it's important to understand when you're sad or, or like angry or frustrated or,

But that's hilarious. So we're still working on that. We're working on... We're still on the remedial emotional emotions phase. Should we be like crying? Like how do you... But she knows that's the one. She's like... She knows. Yeah, no, it's like... Oreo's her name? Aurelia. But we call her Oreo, which I'm sure we're going to regret when... When...

When she's older? Well... It's cute. I think Oreo's a cute dude. She'll probably marry a basketball player, I'm guessing. Who knows, Mark? Who knows what'll happen? It could go, you know? Oreo Zuckerberg? Dude, that's when you take... That's when you get into the food industry. Yeah. Oreo Zuckerberg? I don't know. She, I think, could be... The sugar empress of Menlo Park? Kids love, like...

You know kids love, like, they go through a phase where they love cleaning, and they love, like, playing cooking, right? It's like, oh, just give me some, like, a pan. Like, I don't know if that's something. I think a lot of kids are like that. She's just like, give me a desk. Like, I want to work like Dad does. Like, give me a desk, and, like, I don't want to do this, like, cooking shit. Like, it's like... He's like, we want to own a Popeye's. And she's like, but at least she has...

But I like that, though, when she has a plate, you know? No, she's a bit girl. Yeah, I like that. I love that idea that some child somewhere, this is going to make my day so much better just knowing that a child is just... There's a child behind a desk just demanding. It's like, yeah. Yeah, there's not enough bandwidth in this crib, father. There's not enough bandwidth to the crib, yeah. To pull off what I need to pull off.

I know the kids, you know, I don't... Is it fun being a dad? Do you feel like you enjoy it? Does it feel kind of... Is it tough to connect with your children? Does that ever feel like a thing as a dad with girl daughters? Or with... Yeah. I don't know. I think it's like there's probably some things that they connect better with mother about, but like...

I feel like there's also like, I don't know, there's all these weird dynamics. I know there are some things that they like probably just connect with me better about where it's, you know, it's just a different dynamic with father. Right. So what do they call you? Do they call y'all dad, father, mother? Dad. Although sometimes they're being disobedient, Mark. It's like, no.

Dad is a title, an honorific title that I've earned. Mark! What is going on? It's like Oreo that is bullshit. Get back in your crib. I'll see you in court. These diapers are too tight. Tell my lawyer that's hilarious. That's crazy. I think it's just good for them to...

To have good role models, right? You know, part of the way that I... I feel like when kids grow up, they either end up wanting to...

like marry people who are the opposite of their parents if it was a bad experience or people who they like think of as sort of like, oh, this was a good role model. Right. And so I feel like as long as they look up to us, that's like, that's kind of the, that's, that's, you want to like set a good example. Right. So, but no, I kind of, for me, we talked about this a little bit with, with the fighting stuff early on, but I,

For me, it's always just been important that it's, like... I don't just want to, like, be a person who, like, sits and works all the time. I think, like, you know, we're not, like, meant to just sit at a desk all day long. And one day, Oreo will learn that. But, um...

And I think like a lot of life is like, you move around, you like, you know, it's like, we're like meant to be active and do stuff. And I think that that's a big part of it. I try to like, it's important to me that the kids get that too. And the kids are very active. Do your kids have a lot of...

Like screen time? Like how much screen time do you allow your kids? Yeah, it's different for the different ones. We don't just like let them do whatever, but I actually like want them to be fluent with this stuff. And that kind of like we talked about earlier, you know, I want them to learn how to code, how to use technology. I think it's important to...

Because a lot of socialization, you know, obviously like happens online at this point, like people need to get used to the norms and stuff around that. So, I mean, they're not on, they're still too young to be using like social media, but, uh, but they have messenger kids, you know, we, we, um, make it so that they can video chat and chat with their friends. And, you know, we'll, we'll obviously monitor to make sure that they're, um,

that they're just connecting with the people who, who we think that they should, but like, I think it's actually good. I think people need to kind of grow up. Um, I don't need to as strong, but I, I think is, um, I think it's good if, um,

you have an engaged parent and, and they, um, and, and as a child, you learn up, you, you, you kind of grow up, um, learning how to use a bunch of this stuff. So I think that that's, I think that's all good. I want the kids, um, to the extent that they're interested in it to learn how to code, learn how to create stuff, whether it's in like horizon or VR tools, or they play, you know, Roblox and Minecraft and stuff like that. I think that's good. And then, you know, there's a lot of

educational study type tools that, you know, when our daughter's studying for her competitions or whatever, she can kind of make a lot of progress on that. So I think that that stuff is good, but we're not just like letting them just kind of sit and watch stuff all day long.

Unless you're on a plane. Then you do whatever you need to do to get through that flight. Yeah. Thank you, dude. Somebody else needs to say that. Yeah, no. Where's the... When do we come out with that pacifier that really...

shuts these kids down for a couple hours i'm not saying it's anything crazy nothing illegal but we need we need a high voltage pacifier back in society mark oh man um give us something brother yeah these kids are screaming they they sometimes do oh yeah the craziest thing happened to me one time i'm on a plane i'm dreaming right and i'm like man i'm really having some nice dreams

Because I never have good sleep or anything. So every now and then I come to the surface of my dreams and I'm like, wow, I'm still dreaming. And I go back underwater. But I heard a ukulele playing, right? Ukulele. And at some point I wake up and there is a effing child or child as some people call them.

playing a ukulele with his parents on this plane. I walked up and I put my hand on it in front of the parents. I think I was still groggy from being asleep. And I was like, we can't do this today. It's like the ukulele is, it's, uh,

It's a lot. It's time out for ukulele. We're shutting down this little hand Hawaii you got going on right here, brother. I mean, it probably took a lot of restraint to not just pick up the ukulele and smash it. It really did. Yeah. I mean, it's... It really did. So I just said, we're not doing this today. In a tone that was... That seems stern for a child. It was. Especially for a child who you...

It's not your child. You don't know. Very fair. That's the type of thing that you could cause a scene. Very fair. I got lucky. The parents were...

They agreed. They were probably pissed about the ukulele too. But they were afraid to tell their kids something. Yeah. It's like, so you did them a favor. Yeah. It's like, Hey, Oreo, sometimes business is closed. Yeah. No, it's like working hours are over for today. Okay. Well, you'll be back in the office tomorrow. Like sometimes you just have to, you know, but so I agree, please do whatever you can to stop these kids, um, from being on planes or screaming on planes.

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I do think a future version of the glasses will get there. I think you had a chance to play around with this a bit. Yeah, I did. Are those the ones you have on right now or no? No, this is sort of... I mean, these are the ones that are available today. These are like REI glasses. So, I mean, it's, you know, they're glasses. They can... You know, the main thing is they can... You can take photos or videos with them. I love just using them for listening to music and taking phone calls on them because...

your ears are open, right? So it doesn't obscure your ability to hear anything else. The audio quality is really good, right? Because it is a microphone. It's a contact mic that's basically in the nose pad. Audio quality is great. Yeah, so when I'm like... You can be on a plane and take a phone call, and the other person on the other side can't even hear that you're on a plane. You can be in a wind tunnel and it's just like whatever. The sound quality is amazing. But then the main thing is...

they're AI glasses. So you can, glasses I think are like the perfect form factor for a device where if you want to have an AI that you let see what you see, hear what you hear, it can talk to you. You can talk to it throughout the day. And glasses is that's like, yeah, if you want to have something that has the same context of the world that you do, that's, it's going to be glasses. And there's like

there's like a billion or two billion people in the world who wear glasses already. So to me, the chance that we look back like a decade from now and like all those glasses aren't AI glasses by that period, it's kind of like, like obviously all the flip phones were going to become smartphones, right? I mean, that was clearly a thing that was going to happen. I think that's going to happen with glasses too. But the other piece of this is that

you're going to get the ability to kind of put holograms in the world. So our experience with technology today is... I know it's kind of funny in a way how it's divided, where it's like we have the physical world all around us, and then if you want to interact with something digital, you need to put a screen up. So maybe it's like this... You have your small glowing rectangle, your phone with you. You have your screen if you want to project something. Yeah, your computer. But I think in the...

not too distant future, this should be blended together, right? You'll have like the physical world, but all this digital stuff should just basically be holograms. You shouldn't need like a physical screen. Like there's no reason why in the future, you know, you want to have a screen there.

You'll just have glasses, and that screen will be a hologram. Right, and that's what you put me in. Yeah. Somebody put me in a damn final season of Stranger Things back there. I got put in whatever they put on me. It was like LensCrafters makes LensCrafters look pretty, you know, lame. Well, it's different. Well, it was crazy. I'll say it. It was like, can I say what happened to him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was...

So you put the glasses on, and it's like an advancement of the pair that you have on now, right? So it's like years down the line. How many years down the line do you realistically think that those could... I'm hoping that we'll have a version of that as a product in a few years, but it's going... Like four years or eight years? Hopefully closer to four or even less, but...

I think that there will still be simpler glasses like this, and then there will be more complex glasses. Those will be more expensive. There's more technology. Right, what do you want, kind of? Yeah, but so some people will want more tech. They'll want the holograms. Some people just want a simple experience where it's like, all right, I got the AI. I got the ability to listen to music and phone calls and do all that. Yeah.

And then, obviously, the less tech that you put into them, the thinner they can be, which, I mean, some people like bulky glasses. Some people want thin glasses. Yeah. It was fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. They had a thing on my wrist, right? Uh-huh. Neural interface. A neural interface? Yeah. I mean, you could basically control the glasses and...

with your mind through signals that you're sending from your brain to your hand. Yes, it was fascinating. It was like I could like touch different nodules that I needed to and stuff or different nodes, whatever it's called. I could look at certain things and that would highlight what it was. And it was like a it was just a screen in midair. And I could walk around the side of the room and then come back and the screen would still be there. But it wasn't really there in real life. It was just there. Yeah.

With the glasses on. Yeah, it's a hologram. Yes. And it was crazy, man. I don't know...

And then I was like, well, my first thought was like, well, how do you just get people to adapt to this? Because people aren't just going to go from where we are right now to adapt. And then I realized, okay, there's different stair steps. There's like almost like when you got the first smartphone, like you're saying, and then in advance or the first mobile phone, and then you have the first metaglasses and then it advances and stuff like that. So it was fascinating. There was a part where me and another man who I just met him and, um,

We played ping pong and I believe it was an Asian guy. And I don't know if they did it on purpose or not. And I don't know if ping pong is Asian, but it's people think it is.

And I started playing with this man back there, you know? Did you win? Huh? Did you win? Dude, who knows? We're in the future. I don't know if they keep score. I think everybody gets a medal. No, you definitely keep score. Oh, you do? Yeah, yeah. And in our future, not everyone gets a medal. Yeah, I like that. No, it's... Are you not entertained? Yeah, no, it's like... Yeah, no, that's more... Oreo, fire up the grill! Yeah, no, it's...

Loser burns. But no, but we could play a game of, and it was not real. It was a ping pong table in front of us that was not real. - It was like 3D ping pong. - Yes. So it wasn't there. Someone could ride their bike through it. Like your dumb brother could ride his fricking bike. Like, dang it. Ricky, bro. You fricking rode right through our net. - So, I mean, I think it's an interesting thought experiment how many of the things that we physically have

aren't going to need to be there in the future. Right. So pretty much every screen doesn't need to be there. Right. It'll just be a hologram. Any media, any book that you're playing, any board game, any cards. Those are...

That'd be nice. Because one thing I hate is at the airport, all these TVs are on. It's like everything is so loud now. It's like, can you just make it for you? Just turn it down. Why do we all have to experience this painful noise sometimes? Yeah, it's like you're driving through a city and there's billboards and nothing is personalized. It's like how TV used to be. Right.

Right. I mean, in the, in the future, you know, now like all the stuff that you use on your phone, it's like you get exactly what you're interested in and it's just a much more, as much higher quality experience, but that there's all this physical stuff that just stuck. Right. And, and a static and, um, yeah, I mean, everything I think is going to be able to, um,

Sorry, not everything, but I think it's an interesting thought experiment how much of the stuff that we physically have today that just doesn't actually need to exist in the future. Do you think... Is social media bad? I mean, I don't think so. Yeah, maybe that's not the right term. Like, at a certain point, does...

Yeah, like how much... You know, there's been studies done where it's like doom scrolling and stuff like that can lead to depression, that sort of thing. Like, do you... What do you think about that? Yeah, so look, I mean, we obviously study this stuff pretty carefully. You guys do? Yeah, I mean, we study it. We work with academics to study it. You know, as you can imagine, there's a lot of media coverage of this stuff that's very...

sensationalists that tries to like have a skewed point of view. Right. My understanding of the current state of the research is that there isn't kind of a conclusive finding that this is negative for people's wellbeing. So I think that that's, and in general, you know, some of the stuff that ends up being positive for people is, is building relationships. So there's sort of the media part of social media and there's the social part of social media. I think the, the interacting with people, um,

To the extent that that's helping you build good relationships, I mean, friendships and good relationships is one of the things that correlates the most strongly with positive well-being and, like, feeling good about your life and all that. The media stuff, I mean, I think that's more entertaining. You know, I think you can, you know, people want things that are fun, right? Yeah, people want to be entertained, for sure. It doesn't necessarily, like, correlate with good well-being or bad well-being. But I guess, like, the way that I think about this stuff is that

It's, um, our modern online environment is, um, it, it's just an environment in which we live in a way that has pros and cons, like whether you live in a city or a rural place, right? It's like, okay, like some people may prefer living in a city. There's like things that are good about a city. There are things that are bad about a city. Okay. Like the fact that we went from being primarily offline as a society to now like this kind of hybrid kind

kind of physical and digital reality, there's some things that are better about that, some things that are maybe less good. It's not that every single thing improves at each step along the way, but I think overall, it's kind of the overall effect is significant improvement. And I just don't see a way that people would want to like

go back to not having services where they can get the content that they're interested in and where stuff is personalized to them and where they can communicate with the people who they want and don't need to like be constrained to just the people who are physically around them. It's just, I mean, like we're, we're just, you know, we're not going back to that. And if you look throughout history, it's like when people like first built cities, you know, there were all these, um,

There's a lot of kind of nostalgia for the simpler life and things like that. It's like, okay, yeah. And, and yeah, sure. Maybe, maybe cities aren't better in every single way. And some people might prefer to kind of only go sometimes or whatever. But, but I just think it's like we're building more and more capabilities as a society. And I think that that's sort of, I just think about this stuff more as like an environment in which we live.

So then it's more like if – yeah, like sometimes I think like – because I've been thinking a lot about this. I think a lot of people have. It's like, well, we're moving into such a – like technology is advancing so much faster, right? It's accelerating the advancement speed. And then we're just humans, and we're in this space now where there's like one generation to the next where one generation was completely grown up online and one hasn't really. Yeah. So I wonder –

And I think the older generation probably sees it as like, man, this is so negative. Everybody's stuck. But I wonder if the younger generation, do they even know any different? Right. You know, like just I start to wonder what is the value of being human? Like like what is the does that start to dissipate as we become more technologically advanced or does that alter? Like, do you think about that sometimes? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's going to give people the freedom to focus more on the things that they want. I think if you look at the arc of history, go back like, I mean, before, you know, in ancient times, life was like pretty brutal, right? It's like, okay, so then you go to like maybe right before the Industrial Revolution where- They had team toilet paper at one time. They had like group toilet paper and it was like- Yeah, I mean, that's not good. That's not good. That's not good. Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I don't, you don't want to-

Yeah, no, I think anyone who has nostalgia for the past really is not taking into account the disease and the lack of hygiene that existed in the past. So I think that there's... So anyway, but pre-industrial revolution, I think some huge percent of the population was farmers because...

Basically, everyone needed to be focused on growing things in order to have enough food. Then we basically got to the point where, okay, now we can start to produce food much more efficiently.

So that actually frees up a lot of people to not have to be farmers. Now maybe like 2% of people can be farmers and 98% of people can do other stuff. So now we, people start doing more kind of other creative stuff and inventing new things. And, and at each step along the way, kind of like being a farmer is a really hard job, right? It's like, you're working like a lot of hours and, and, and, and now,

as, as kind of people got more options, they, they took other jobs. Um,

But then we've also seen this mix where the percent of people's time that has gone towards leisure and entertainment has just steadily increased over time. And I just think that that's going to continue to be the case with technology. We'll have more stuff that will make it so that the basic needs are taken care of, which will free people up to do some combination of more creative jobs and more

not have to work as hard if they don't want to. But I think some people are going to like working all the time, like me, and you'll be able to do that too and get more done than you could have ever possibly done in the past. But that'll be sort of a choice. And

Well, since you're kind of like a leader in innovation and technology in our world, you know, um, do you, how do you know that what your convictions are? How do you gauge if what your convictions are, are the best for everybody? Kind of like, how do you kind of figure that out? You know, it seems like such a challenge. Yeah. Well, does that make sense of the question or no? Yeah, no, I think I get what you're asking. Um, I mean, look at the end of the day, um,

There are still a lot of options of things that people can do. Just because I build something doesn't mean that people are going to use it. Actually, a lot of the things that I build, some of them work, some of them don't. And I think part of the reason why

the company has been successful is because, you know, maybe we have a slightly higher hit rate of things working than others, but it's kind of like, I don't know, in baseball, it's like most people don't get on base most of the time. Right. It's so it's, it's like, like running one of these companies, you, you, more of the stuff doesn't work than does. And if you're

we do something that doesn't work, then in general, people aren't going to use it. And then the future doesn't go in that direction. So I see. So you're saying it's up to the user more. Yeah. I mean, look, I kind of think one way to look at the world is that

There's a version of history that says that individual people are very powerful and have a lot of autonomy and ability to go in the direction that they think is right. And then there's all these other narratives where people try to diminish people's autonomy and authority. I've always been a person who really believes that people understand...

People are smarter than people think. Yes. And I think in general are able to make good decisions for their lives. And when they do things that like the media or whatever thinks don't make sense, it's generally because the media doesn't understand their life, not because the people are stupid. Like if people are saying something that seems wrong, it's not usually misinformation. It's usually that you don't understand what's going on in that person's life. And I just think that there's like a certain...

kind of paternalism in some of the mainstream narratives and some of the media narratives. Like a know-it-allism almost? Yeah, it's like... There has been for sure for years. I think it's starting to change more. Yeah, I think it's a little more receptive as maybe some of those cultural or media elite people are having a harder time predicting what's going to happen in the world. Maybe there's a little more humility of like, okay, maybe we don't understand all of this. But to me, the best predicting thing

has always been like, all right, if you build something, do people actually think it's good? Because like at some level, you know, it's like, I just believe that people are actually very smart and understand their lives very well. And if you're building something that is useful for them, then they will use it. And if you're using something, if you're building something that is not useful for them, then they have other options. They will, they will do something else. Um, and so I don't know, it's always served me well.

to generally have faith in people and believe that people are smart and can make good decisions for themselves. And whenever we try to like adopt some sort of like attitude of, oh, we must know better than them. It's like, we're like, we're the people building technology. That's when you lose. Right. And if you do, and if you have that attitude for long enough, then you just like become a shitty company and you lose and you lose and you lose, and then you're irrelevant. So, um,

So I tend to just think that at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, I think people are smarter than a lot of people think. And I think ultimately drive the direction that society goes in. You, um, so like people, a lot of times, like there's guys who are like kind of, you know, Elon Musk is probably like a socially awkward guy. And I would say, I mean, I think it's...

Yeah. We all are. Right. We all are, right? I think we all are. And it's interesting that there's probably people... I mean, have you ever felt socially awkward over your years? No. I'm really smooth. No, no, no. Obviously. Yes. Yeah. I'm like the most awkward person. People have been calling me a robot online for 20 years. It does wonders for my confidence. I know.

No, your confidence cannot be impaled. I don't think that's one thing you have. That's probably a sheer North star inside of you. It's gotta be, you've got to become bulletproof. I think there's times where, yeah, you seem like a guy who probably like, like watched a video of how to be a guy on YouTube or something, you know? But I think we all, we all go through, like, we're all like awkward in different ways. You know, you put you in certain environments and you're not at all.

But I think it's interesting that there's... I haven't found those environments yet, but maybe, you know, it's... Dude, even being here today, bro, is nice of you. It's nice of you to be here today. No, I think the podcasts are awesome because you just like, you get to explore something. Right, for sure. But here's my question. Sorry, Mark, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, go for it. But I'm not going to get another chance to, so...

My question is, is it interesting that they have kind of people who have would probably self-describe as socially awkward at times kind of creating technology that socially connects people? That's the thing that you ever kind of find that kind of fascinating because I've always had a belief that that that like sometimes social awkward people are almost a mix between human and like machine like like the future or something. Does that make any sense to you?

Yeah, you know, it's an interesting question. I just think that there are a bunch of factors here that you need to peel apart. I think someone can be socially perceptive and understand kind of what is going on in social dynamics and have a lot of empathy and care about other people while still being quite awkward in how they communicate. And...

And so I don't think you can build a great... Yeah, I'm trying to build too broad of a bridge. No, well, I think it's a fair point, right? I mean, it's like, all right, a lot of social media is like people creating great content and kind of communicating really well. And those are not my biggest strengths, right? It's like, I don't think I'm the best communicator by a long shot. I mean, I think I kind of got to where I am because I think I...

Kind of understand what people like and I have the ability to build it but I don't think my strength is like oh I can really like Communicate about why what i'm building is awesome. I generally let to like to make it so that my work speaks for Itself and I try to explain it so I can kind of explain how i'm thinking about it but but I don't think people primarily like using our stuff because You know, they saw me talk about it and they're like, oh, yeah, this seems super exciting now um, but

But I think the ability to kind of communicate in a way that is not awkward is a different skill than the ability to kind of understand and have empathy for kind of people and social interactions. And it's, you know, there's an interesting thing where I actually think sometimes a lot of the people who can communicate in the smoothest way

sometimes have a lot less empathy and understanding of social dynamics than the kind of nerdy guy who may not be able to express himself quite as well, but sort of understands a little bit better what's going on. And...

I don't know. The world's complicated and there's like multiple dimensions to all this stuff and no one's good at all of them. So you just try to do the things that you like, hone the things that you're good at and try to put it to service to, you know, do as good of work as you can.

Yeah, I think we're in this unique place where I believe it's like one or two generations think that one, something isn't social. And then the younger generation thinks that it is social. Yeah. And so I feel like in some senses, we're at this crossroads kind of of like how we communicate as humans a little bit. Yeah. And this advancement and sometimes those steps are kind of tricky to take. This is my last question because I know you have to go.

So I feel like Elon Musk has like a, like he wants to get on Mars and he wants to like impregnate different planets or whatever, you know, or whatever he's doing, dude. He's just blasting his seat out into the different rockets or whatever. You know, he's just out there, you know, he's like the Johnny Apple solar system, you know, but... God bless. But no, God bless 100%, dude. And yeah, 100%. Um...

And I'm just joking. I think he probably would know that. But I just think it's interesting. Like you get his you get what his ideas are. He wants to like we want to be on Mars and we want to send the rockets and we want to make everything solar powered and stuff. And you're such an innovator and a leader. Like what is what do you feel like is your kind of.

it's not a goal but kind of where do you what do you what draw like what is the thing where you see us you know like where you're at a point where like man this is what i'm really proud of and this is where i see us going because yeah you know we're all on this bus together going somewhere and we don't exactly know where we're going because it's the future yeah but you're kind of you're kind of one of the guys driving the bus you know at least riding shotgun so it's like where are we going

I mean, I think different people just care about, about, uh, different parts of, of, uh, the future. Right. So the space thing, I think it's cool. I'm glad that people are working on it. It's never really been my, my main thing. Um, for me, it's all, it's, it's kind of been about the intersection of, of how do you build technology that helps people connect with each other and understand the world better. And, um,

And just taking different formats over time, right? So, you know, when we got started, people, you know, were mostly like, you know, writing text. Then, you know, then we got smartphones and, you know,

We got cameras with the smartphones. We started taking a lot of photos and sharing that. And now most of what we do is video, right? The mobile networks are good enough that you can like share great video. It used to be- Oh yeah, it's great. Yeah, 10 years ago, you try watching a video, it's like buffering, buffering. It's like, okay, this is terrible. But now it's good. People always want to-

both kind of express their ideas and experience other people's ideas in whatever the richest format is that they can. So if that was going to be text, then that was the best that they had. Great. Photos, visual, great. A picture's worth a thousand words. Video, better than photo for most things. But I don't think that's the end of the line, right? I just think we're going to be here, whether it's five years or 10 years. And I think the ability to like fully capture moments and

to really be able to experience them. I think that's sort of the hologram thing that we're talking about. I think that that's just going to be like the next level of people being able to express like ideas and moments in their life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the next like blank canvas. So I think that's one thing. And then there's the whole AI thing, which we haven't spent as much time on. I know we didn't get into, sorry. But we should, we should. Which...

That is really going to give people a lot of new tools to kind of both just get smarter at everything they do. And if you look at the world like I do through this lens of how do we express ourselves and how do we kind of take in an understanding of what's going on?

AI is just going to be super powerful for both of those. You can already see some of the basic stuff with people creating images or editing images. It's crazy how fast it's happening too. That's what I'm amazed at is just how fast it's happening. But do you envision this like, are you just like,

Like, what do you envision that will be on these, like, surfboards? Do you have, like, a, like, kind of, like, a utopian idea? Or do, like, I just wonder, how do you see things? Because you're the only, like, you're probably one of the smartest people to ever use thought. I don't know. I don't know. Well, that we, you know, are one of the most unique people to ever use thought that we have in our time. So it's like, how do you, what is it, what is it like out there? I mean, I...

I think that we're going to get general intelligence. We're going to have systems that are smarter than any individual. And I think it's mostly going to be very empowering for people. First of all, look, I mean, there are already systems that are smarter than any one individual today, right? If you take like a company, right? It's like, okay, you got like a thousand people or 10,000 people who are all kind of like working towards, you know, ostensibly working towards a goal together. Like I, you know, if the...

of a 10,000 person company is not greater than the intelligence of a single person. And like, what are we doing here? Right. So there are already these systems in the world that have this sort of super intelligence that is far exceeds what any one person can do. And I just think like, instead of having relatively few people be able to kind of harness the power of like, you have the ability of

you know, you have a 10,000 person organization that can, um, that can help you build the things that you think are good. I just think in the future, almost everyone is going to have that. And that's cool. What does that mean? It means that more ideas are going to get tried out. Um, so it might be like leveling up in an overall idea of creativity in the universe with AI. Yeah. And I think it's going to be every field, right? So like science will get more advanced, um, like we'll get more productive, but like, I

I think a big part of the internet is stuff just gets more fun and funnier and like the memes get weirder and more specific. And like that is advancement too. It's almost like universal basic technology kind of in a way. It's just the, the ability to, to kind of express these like very complicated ideas in like a very simple piece of media. I think we're going to get better and better at that. And that advances our kind of understanding of ourselves as a society. So, um,

Yeah, I don't know. I think we'll get superintelligence, and I would guess that it will be a continuation of this trend that humanity has been on for...

a hundred plus years of basically getting more time to do creative things, less time having to do drudgery, not having to spend as much time working if you don't want. But if you want to dedicate your life towards that, you're going to have more powerful tools than you could ever have possibly imagined. So it's not as much a conviction as much as it is a space of choice is how you see that. Like just kind of that sort of thing. What do you mean? It's not like you're like convicted to this sort of like

future as we advance. Like it's just a space of choice. If you still want to be able to do these things, you can do those. And if you want to be able to do these things, you can do those. Yeah. You are on the bus right there. There you go. I mean, that's a little weird of a photo, but I do not think that is good. I do not think that is good. Um, I don't like that at all. And we, thank you for telling us that though. Horrible AI. Um, I, yeah, I think that was open AI dude. So sorry about that. Um, do you think you, do you think you will live forever, Mark?

Is that a thought coming to your head? That is an interesting question. I think... You have two minutes to answer and then you have to leave. Yeah, no, I don't know. Live forever. Gosh, I think at some point we will... Like a lot of... Well, let me come at it this way. Our... Outside of meta...

The philanthropy that I do with Priscilla, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, is primarily focused on curing diseases. And the way we're doing that is not by focusing on any single disease. It's by focused on kind of basic technology at the intersection of AI and biology to accelerate the pace of science. And we originally thought that kind of 100 years from when we started was sort of around the timeframe to be able to cure and prevent and cure.

like deal with all diseases. I know there's a chance that that happens sooner than, um, you know, because of, because of all the work with, with AI, I guess I'm, I'm more optimistic about that now. Um, with that means that like we are going to live forever or we just have healthier lives for the period that we're supposed to be living. And then at some point, like your human body is done. Um, I don't, I don't think we understand that yet enough, but, um, but a lot of

curing diseases is not just about living forever. It's about having better lives. And it's like, and it's like, while you're alive, like you don't want to have to deal with shit, right? It's like, like where you're just like, you feel terrible because you're sick or like you're injured or there's, you know, so I think it's possible. Like you, when you, because you have an understanding of like science and being human, that is, that is way supersedes a lot of people's. Do you, do you think it's possible that we could figure that out?

Curing all diseases? To be able to live, to keep life. Do you think it's possible we could figure out how to do it? I think it's possible.

I don't know. It's honestly, it's not an area that I've studied that much. You didn't know because we don't know. We don't know what's going on, Mark. And we just want you to tell us. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't know. I don't know. Let's check back in in 10 years on that. I think as the AI stuff makes more progress, I think we'll kind of get a sense of the trajectory for that. But I think it's just going to unlock a lot of creativity and productivity and fun and like,

I think people, the technology industry misses fun a lot. I think that that's like one observation that I've had building stuff out here is people are very focused on like, all right, we're going to make like a better word processor. We're going to like process information better. Cool. But I know a lot of what people care about is just like, all right, I want to like

be entertained i want like i want my life to be fun right i want i want something that's funny that i can then go show to my friends and then we can talk about that and like and then just hang out and have a good time like showing each other funny things and like talking about what the world is and i think ai is going to make this stuff all great so um

I don't know. I mean, it's, I do think this is, this is a big, a big focus for us and we're building this meta AI. Um, it's our, we call it personal AI. I mean, our goal on this is not just to build something that's like, I mean, yeah, it's going to be super smart, right? It's, it's like, yeah, we're trying to solve full general intelligence and super intelligence and all that. But I think in order to build a product that people are going to want to use, um,

You're going to want to build something that's fun to use. That means you're not just going to want to type to it. You want to have a conversation. And it's not just about having it be...

like only able to answer hard questions it should like get to know you and like what you think is funny and like what you ate right so that way you know it can like or you know what your hobbies are so that way it can kind of relate to you and I think people don't know that AI can do that I think that we need we're missing quickly I think in education educating people how to what AI is and how to use it I

think i notice even in my own life and i spend a lot of time online involved in stuff but i think people are not understanding what's going on so i don't know how we get people educated quickly so that they can i think whoever can also serve people the best way to educate themselves is going to be able to best exert um or um be able to best uh coagulate people to their ai um

model or whatever. I've never heard coagulate used that way. Or yeah, or something like that. Yeah. But because that's the big thing. A lot of people are like, we have the best AI, but most people are like, what the hell is, what are we doing? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So anyway, sorry. I think I kept you longer than we were supposed to, but, um, yeah, sorry. We got into a lot of technological stuff. I think it's just kind of like, you know, we don't know what's happening. And sometimes we want to talk, we get to talk to somebody like you and it's important, you know? Yeah, no, it's good. This is a fun conversation. Yeah, man. I enjoyed it too, man. Um,

Yeah, thanks for sharing just some of what your life is like with us. And just I hope that, yeah, just keep, make sure we stay alive or whatever we're supposed to and just keep taking. Working on it. Okay, that's all we can ask for now, sir. All right, awesome. Mark, thanks, dude. Appreciate it, brother. Yeah. Yeah.

I also want to say a thank you to the people at Grace Dental. That's Grace Dental in Palo Alto, California. They glued my tooth was broken and they glued it back together.

uh, before the interview, uh, today. So I'm thankful that they helped and I'm grateful that I got to meet them. Thanks.