Mark Manson: The Psychological Skills To Master For Fulfilling Relationships, Inner Peace & Abundance
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I'm really trying not to say the word.

There's a lot of statistics around kids cutting off their parents, and it really makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents, but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently. You create a boundary. Exactly. I've got a whole rant about manifestation. My audience loves manifestation, so it's going to trigger everyone. I know they do. Trigger warning. Mark's coming in on the manifestation. Let's hear it.

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Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have my friend Mark Manson in the house who's been on the New York Times bestseller list for, I think, six years now. Is that right? About six years off and on. 360 weeks. If you add everything together, it's like 330, 340 weeks. Oh, okay. I gave you that extra few weeks. Okay. But it's amazing what you've created. Number one New York Times bestseller multiple times. And

I love seeing your journey. Yeah. What were you going to say? I was going to say, this is my fourth time on the show. Fourth time. Let's go, baby. Has anybody been on more? Can I be the greatest School of Greatness guest? I've had a guest on, I think, over 10 times, actually, who is a coach that has come on and coached a bunch of times. But as an individual kind of guest like this,

I think three might be the max. I'm trying to think. I've moved in the second. I think maybe three times. Maybe four is kind of like only a few people. All right. So that's good. It's good to be back. We're making it happen. You've been diving in. You've had a lot of experience on a lot of different topics over 15 years since you've been creating content. But for the last few years, you really dove into creating more psychologically challenging

like deeper psychological videos on your YouTube, which I think are really fascinating around human behavior and kind of these psychological skills that we can overcome or we can master to help us create deeper relationships, to help us create healthier lives, more inner peace and more abundance. So I wanted to ask you about in the content you've been making, the research you've been doing, because you're really great at researching and getting the best information about

What are a few of the psychological skills that humans should master if they want more peace and abundance in their life? I'd say the first one, first and foremost, is self-awareness. Ultimately, if you're not aware of a problem in your life or a tendency in your life, you can't do anything about it. And self-awareness, people talk about it all the time.

It's a very tricky thing. It's a very slippery thing. Sometimes the more you try to grasp it, the more it slips out of your grasp because we're very good at tricking and deluding ourselves. Everybody kind of thinks like, well, I know what's going on in my life. I know why I did that. I know why I'm thinking this way. And it's actually the process of developing self-awareness is in some ways it should be an uncomfortable process. It should involve...

questioning your own assumptions, questioning your motivations. Like if you say you just had an argument with your partner, obviously you think you're right. Obviously you think you know what you're doing. But being able to step back and say, "But what if I don't? What if I'm actually wrong? What if they're actually right? What would that mean? What would that suggest about me? What would that suggest about my view of the world?"

And actually being able to sit with that for a certain amount of time, like that is a skill. That is something that you practice and develop over a long period of time. And like most skills, it's when you're bad at it, it's not fun. Yeah. So most people avoid it. For probably every relationship I was in until this one, I used to think I was right in a lot of things. Yeah.

And maybe I was in some of it, but I'd be sure that I wasn't a lot of the time. Where in your relationship have you had to question your own assumptions of being right about something? Where you said to say, I need to have my own medicine and step into self-awareness and realize, oh, maybe actually she's right. Yeah. Where has that been in your relationship that you've seen?

Well, the biggest thing, the first thing that comes to mind for me, the biggest thing for me is I historically was very avoidant in my relationships. Like I was the guy who would find exit plans to every intimate relationship. Where it's uncomfortable. Exactly. And well, every time things got too intimate, I would kind of freak out and like find an excuse to slip out or sabotage things. And when I was younger, I...

basically torpedoed a bunch of good relationships for no good reason really and At the time when I was doing it, I thought you know like everybody I thought I was justified and rational being reasonable and everything but as the years went on I realized when I look back I was like it's like yeah, that was kind of that was kind of selfish That was you know, that was a little bit unjustified. There was a little bit irrational I was definitely being triggered, you know, some baggage was being triggered and

So when I met my wife, I kind of went into it with more self-awareness around this. I was like, okay, clearly I'm an avoidant attachment type. I clearly get triggered around intimacy and have irrational reactions and want to escape and want to run away. And I made a deal with myself is I said, look, you can always break up with her. That's always on the table. You're never trapped.

But you're only allowed to break up with her for a good reason. It can never be over something stupid. It can never be over like a dumb fight you started over who loaded the dishwasher wrong. It's always got to be a real reason, like a values difference or a communication problem or a breach of trust or something. It can never be over something really dumb because that's what I had done

Consistently throughout my previous relationship. Or just because you're afraid or something. Totally. Totally. Which I think people don't realize like, I mean, avoidance in particular, it's when you, it's a very irrational reaction and it happens when you're not aware of it. It happens unconsciously. It's almost like a knee jerk type thing. You get too close to somebody, it gets a little bit too intimate. You feel vulnerable.

That freaks you out. And so your mind starts tricking you and it starts convincing you things that aren't true, right? It's like, oh, she's probably lying to you. Or, you know, oh, she never actually liked you that much. She's just doing this because she wants something from you. You know, it starts feeding all these stories and narratives in your brain that are completely made up. But and they're completely based in your trauma response.

But if you're not aware of that pattern within yourself, you just, you assume it's true and you assume it's right. And then you start a dumb fight over something completely inconsequential and, and you ruin a good relationship. Right. And so you've been married how long now? 10 plus years? Eight years. Eight years. Yeah. What are the psychological skills or emotional skills that you learned?

have now learned or improved upon eight years later that you didn't have at the beginning of the marriage? That has helped you become closer, that has helped you feel more harmonious in the marriage, giving you more freedom, whatever it might be within the marriage. It's a really good question. I think one of the biggest things is simply, I don't know if the right word is acceptance or non-judgment, but it's

I guess the best way I'd describe it is not feeling compelled to change the other person. Gosh, that's so... Did you try to change her early on? A little bit. A little bit. Yeah, for sure. And she probably tried to change me a little bit too. Really? I just feel like when I look at the trends, at this point, my wife and I, we've been together, it will be 13 years next month that we've been together. And when I look at the different kind of trajectories in the relationship over that time,

Definitely one of the biggest ones is it feels like every year that goes by, the more we just kind of live and let live. Like we just, you love who's in front of you. You don't love who they might be, who they could be, who you wish they could be. You love who's in front of you, right? And that's, ultimately, that's the choice you have to make. Yeah. And if you choose not to, if you choose to love some imagined version of your partner, some potential version of your partner, right?

I just think you're setting yourself up for a lot of pain. And if someone doesn't learn the skill of self-awareness, what is available on the other side if they don't learn that skill? You basically become a slave to your unconscious, right? You've got all these patterns. Harville Hendricks calls them love maps. But you have all these patterns that were imprinted on you as a child.

And if you're like most people, like everybody, you know, your parents weren't perfect. So your parents had baggage and issues and they kind of imprinted some of that baggage and issues on you. And so if you never develop any awareness around yourself, you're essentially a slave to that baggage. Like you're always just going to assume that any impulse or emotion that arises is true without questioning that, without wondering if you're being irrational or not.

Maybe you're being unfair. Maybe you're being selfish. You know, these are all human things. We all do them. And yeah. If someone feels like, but I know I'm right and they're wrong and I know this is correct and this is not true in whatever dynamic relationship dynamic. Mm-hmm.

What is something that someone could ask themself or some steps they could take to say am I truly being self-aware? Or am I just being a jerk right? What are those skills or steps to creating self-awareness? So I think there are some thought exercises you could go through and you could do this in a journal You could do this with a therapist you could do with a friend I think the first one is imagine take your relationship situation and imagine it's to other people

And switch around who the people are. Switch around the genders, switch around the age, who the people are, and see if the dynamics, see if it still feels true to you. Ask yourself, if my best friend was in this...

If my best friend's partner was doing the thing to them that I'm doing to my partner, how would I feel about it? And I think that can be very illuminating. That's interesting. So kind of remove yourself from the scenario and look at it from a different perspective, an unbiased perspective, I guess, of like you being in the situation. Totally. That's interesting. Okay. So that's one thing to creating self-awareness. Is there another? Ask people close to you.

Yeah. Feedback. Feedback. And this is the tricky thing is that a lot of people don't have people around themselves that will give them honest feedback. Interesting. And if you're in the wrong relationship intimately, your partner might be saying, you're bad at this and bad at this. They may be not giving you the best feedback too, depending if they don't have your best interest in mind. If they have their interest in mind,

And not yours. Well, and that just made me think of a good point too is that generally people who are in bad relationships, bad romantic relationships, probably also have bad relationships with friends, with family. They're just bad at relationships in general, right? So finding somebody who is capable of giving you honest critical feedback, saying like, "Hey man, I think you're in the wrong on this one. I think she's got a point."

You know, you want to find somebody in your life who is capable of saying that to you and then ask them for their honest opinion. And, you know, it's like, it's like a doctor, right? Like you want to get multiple, if it's a, if it's a serious issue, you want to go get multiple opinions. Yes. And you know, what's interesting about feedback is I felt like as an athlete growing up, I was really good at receiving coaching and feedback when it was around sports. Yeah. And then in my twenties, I, I, and I got into the real world.

I didn't like feedback like in my business and intimate relationships and like friends I didn't like it because it felt like it was critical of me as a person Rather than me as a skill set in a sport. Yeah, and I didn't take things personally when a coach was like you dropped the ball Here's what you need to do. I was like, okay, tell me more. How do we get better at this skill? but when I would get feedback in my 20s from whatever girlfriends or friends or whatever business people

It was like I took it so personally. Yeah. It was like I'm bad and wrong because I'm getting feedback. Yeah. And I didn't know how to do it. I would like push people away. I was like defend myself every time I got feedback. And I realized that really hurt me from personally growing and developing skills. And it wasn't until I was about 30 where I went to a workshop where it was like a whole day was around people giving you feedback in the workshop.

Like literally they would circle around you and they'd say, you show up to me as this, you show up to me as a jerk, you show up to me as entitled, you show up to me as whatever. And the whole thing was like receiving the feedback and say, give me more feedback. Give me more. I, you know, give me more, tell me more. And everyone being like, this is after like days of people getting to experience you. Yeah. Even if you were like the best person there, what's the feedback you can give them?

And that, I don't know if it was like the healthiest thing, but it was definitely helpful for me because I was so against getting feedback about me. Yeah. And it was the greatest gift that I got in my early 30s because I think I just would have been, you know, right and wrong, good and bad, and just unable to receive feedback at any moment. I'd have been judgmental, you know, all these...

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Wait, did I say job title yet? Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started at linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. It's scary, man. Feedback is scary. Very hard, right? Like it's, you feel, it's hard not to take it personally. It's hard to, and I think it's because sometimes people, there are people in the world who

their feedback is critical and judgmental, right? It's like they're not trying to help you. They're trying to cut you down. Hurt you, yeah. Yeah. And it's so finding people who can give you free feedback, but they're giving it for your own benefit is really good. You also bring up something that's super interesting about all of this, which is these emotional skills, they're very domain specific. Like I meet people all the time who are emotional geniuses in their professional work life. And then they go home

And in front of their kids, they just melt down and can't handle anything. And then there are other people who are the complete opposite. They're just amazing family members and friends. And then they go to work and they just get walked over by everybody. Isn't that interesting? Or at work, they're like the boss, but then they come home and they're like a baby or whatever it is. Totally. But in my sports experience, I was like, give me the best coach who can give me feedback all day long. I was like, tell me what to do. How can I get better? How can I improve?

But in my personal life, I took it as criticism. I took it as I'm not good enough as a person. And I took it as an offense. And I know now it's because I was very wounded and I was very insecure and I was afraid of people not thinking I was good enough or something like that. But it's interesting that I was able to do it in one domain, but in the other, it was the hardest thing to overcome, getting feedback. It sounds like you had a... I mean, obviously, you were an athlete. You had a lot of confidence in the sports domain, right? So it's like even if a coach...

I imagine there were plenty of coaches that chewed you out and told you you screwed up. But you knew, you're like, "I'm good at this. I'm a good athlete and I'm going to get better." Whereas if you've never had that evidence accumulate in your personal life, that you're a good person, that people love you, that people want to be friends with you, then yeah, that feedback is scary. And I think growing up, I didn't really have any friends and I felt like I didn't feel like I had anyone who had my best interests. Besides

you know, parents or siblings or whatever, but I was the youngest and they were always kind of off with their friends. So I always felt like I'm left behind. At least that was the story I told myself. Whether it was actually true is what I felt, my interpretation. It's funny. I, I, um, early in my career. So I struggled a lot with social anxiety when I was younger. And it's funny because I,

for the people who've read my writing for a long time like it's pretty incendiary a little controversial you know like it definitely pokes at people's buttons to get a pretty angry response sometimes and

Early in my career, I kind of relished that. That's kind of how I made a name for myself is I would poke people's buttons and kill sacred cows and say controversial things and try to get a lot of attention that way. And it's funny because I've spoken to so many writers and aspiring writers who are terrified of publishing something and making people upset. And it never bothered me. Why didn't it bother you? I don't know. I was just like, I'm right, whatever.

And did you do that in like social settings or only like written settings? So this is the whole point is like I would write an article that I knew very well. I'm like, this is going to piss off thousands of people. I'm going to wake up tomorrow. I'm going to have 200 angry emails in my inbox. But it's fine because I think it's worth writing it. And I would do it. And then I would go to a party that night.

And I'd be nervous to talk to the girl next to me because I'm like, well, what if she doesn't like me? Really? Yeah. What is that about? You know, what do you think that was in about you where you had the confidence or the courage to do something, I guess, online, but in person you struggle? What do you think that? The only thing I can come back to is it's like that evidence thing, right? Like I...

my writing like my I I'm very aware that my writing is a better portrayal of me and my ideas then I guess my physical form is Interesting because you could also package your thoughts and make something compelling and you'd get results that way so you knew what to do there I think I'm just better in writing than in person and

And, but also it's like I had, I had accumulated a lot of evidence over many, many years that like when I really put thought into something, whether it's blogging or posting on forums or posting on social media, when I put a lot of thought into something, it really lands for a lot of people. And I'm really good at this. Whereas in my personal life, you know, like you, I grew up, um, you know, didn't have a ton of friends, uh,

got rejected by all the girls in high school, was kind of bullied a little bit. So it was...

There was still that scar tissue there that was, wow, it was hard to work through. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But I think this is interesting because I don't think most people talk about feedback and receiving feedback. I think it's really valuable to get it as consistent as you can. And also, I look at a lot of my comments on whatever, YouTube or social media, not in a sense of like I'm worried what people are saying, but more as feedback. Yeah.

Because if there is one person or two people saying, I didn't like how you did this. Like, okay, is this true for me? And is there a place I can improve or is it just something they didn't enjoy? Yeah. Whereas if I see a bunch of common themes around people saying, hey, you're interrupting too much or you're doing this too much or whatever. Then I'm like, okay, here's a theme of different perspectives giving me feedback. Yeah.

Don't take it personally, but see how can I improve this? If I want to. Yeah. If I don't care or, you know, about what they think, then I'll do whatever I want. But if I'm trying to get better, if I'm trying to serve better, if I'm trying to be a better interviewer, things like that, then let me take the feedback without taking it personally.

and try to notice next time. And that's been helpful. Yeah. So that's another skill, right? Is like knowing when to take feedback and when to ignore it. Because sometimes people don't get what you're about. Sometimes people don't understand what you're doing. Sometimes people project what they would do and try to get you to do what they would do, right? Yes. So there's a certain amount of wisdom and consideration that I think is required to

to notice those those moments of like okay i know this person has my best interest at heart but they also don't really get what i'm trying to do they they they're doing what they would try to do you know they're telling me to do what they would try to do so it is it's tricky you know i i have this um uh i had an instagram post that that went viral it said uh

It said if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then why the f*ck do you care about their criticism? Yeah. That's good. I think what people, the mistake that a lot of people make is that they don't think about where the feedback or the advice is coming from. So true. So they're like, "Oh, this person doesn't like what I'm doing. They say I should be doing this better." And it's like, "Well, yeah.

Do you respect where this person's coming from? Because you don't have to, right? Yeah. Just because someone said they don't like something you're doing doesn't mean they're the best opinion to listen to for your advice. That's interesting. I like that a lot. It's kind of like when you get a negative review as an author. I don't know if you feel this way, but whenever I see a negative review, I'm like, this person is not a writer who's leaving a nasty review on Amazon. Yeah.

Because I don't know if I've ever left a bad review since writing a book for anyone else. Totally. Because you know the pain, the time, the energy, and just putting a book out, even if it's bad. Yeah. You know, I could give some like feedback, but not like one star, I hated it. You know, it's like no one writing books are leaving negative reviews for anyone else writing books. Yeah. They don't. You know what's funny? This is actually, I'm glad you brought this up because-

The two most prominent negative reviews I've ever gotten I actually feel kind of good about are they from writers No, okay So the first one is I think if you go if you go to the Amazon page of subtle art and I give you the top negative review, I think it describes me as the guy in the bar who thinks he's smarter than he is and and

And who's like lecturing you and thinks he's smarter than he is. And I was like, yeah, that is kind of my vibe. Like I kind of am that guy. Like I've been to a lot of bars and I've been, I've been that guy quite a bit. And then the other one was, uh, my second book when it came out, the, the London Sunday, uh, the Sunday times in London, uh, it was like an 80 year old guy reviewed it, which I don't know why they asked him to do it. He said, um,

He said, Manson is like... He said, the problem with Manson is that he's like the local drunk who spent too much time in the philosophy section. Oh, my gosh. That's so funny, dude. And I was like, yeah, he gets it. It's the same feedback. It reminds me of Google hunting. You know the scene in the bar where there's a guy who's like philosophizing? Yeah. And then, whatever. Anyways. But I mean, well, my point there is that they're criticizing me for the thing that I...

think other people love me for. Yes, exactly. Which is like I'm like a friend in the bar who's giving you advice, right? Like that's totally why my fans like me and so when I see that criticism, I'm like I'm on the right track. I'm not right for you, but thank you for pointing that out because it means I'm on the right track. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Well now here's an interesting question for you. What is the feedback if you were

a coach and you could get out of yourself and see who you are and everything you've been about in the last, I don't know, how old are you, 40? 40. 40. If you could see everything you've created, which are not you, but you could see it and you know all of your dreams over the next three, five, 10 years and where you want to go in your health and your relationships or your spiritual journey or financial opportunities, what feedback would you give yourself? Wow, this is a tough question, man.

I'm thinking about your mom. Oh, why? Why? Because you told me the last time that came on, your mom really enjoyed the questions. Oh God. Yeah. Okay. You said your mom watched. She really liked the questions and she really liked the responses that you had because she hadn't heard you say these things. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious,

So if you could coach yourself, what feedback would you give yourself? I, so the, the area of my life that I think I'm not killing it right now. And this is honestly, this is, this has been a struggle for a long time. It is, uh,

reaching out to people staying connected to people it's kind of social life it's like non-romantic relationships right it's reaching out to friends checking in with people following up with people being like you know hey we sorry we missed each other last weekend we should hang out next weekend like i'm really bad about that i'm very passive and reactive and it's

It's a bad habit that I've fallen into throughout my life. And it's funny because at the beginning of this year,

My wife and I, we set intentions for the year. And one of my intentions was to be better about this. I think I got a little bit better, but I'm like still bad at it. You've done, I've noticed it in the last couple of years. You know, we're not best friends hanging out with Tom, but you've reached out a couple of times. Yes. Whereas before you'd never did. Yeah. You know, I was like, so I was like, huh, what is he changing something about himself? I'm trying, man. I'm not expecting a text from you every month or something, but the fact that you're just like, Hey, just checking in and let's go for a hike sometime or whatever. Once in a while, I'm like,

It's noticeable because you never did it before. Yes.

And so I'm seeing that you're taking those actions and I'm sure you're doing with others too. I'm terrible at it. And it's, it's something that I've had to be very conscious about. And it's like, it's silly because it's the superficial stuff. Like, like when I'm in person and you can attest to this, like when we're in front of each other, it's great. Like I can talk all day. We can hang out. Like everything's good. But it's for some reason like that, that connection, that texting, the calling, the responding, the emails, like the scheduling stuff, like

I'm always really bad about that. And it seems silly because it's the superficial side of it. But I don't know. Like part of it is just, you know, being busy, quote unquote, like we all are. But part of it too, like sometimes I wonder if it isn't a little bit of residue from like that social anxiety I was talking about. Sure. You know, if like...

I'm like, weekend's coming up. I should, I want to do something with somebody, but I don't know who. I don't know if they're busy. What if they reject me? Right. Like, I don't know if like what to invite them to. Like, what if it's something lame? You know, what if they don't want to come? You know, so it's. They can say no. There's probably, there's probably like some really subtle. Interesting. Residual stuff like that down there. Or maybe I just never do.

develop the skill. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a skill. Yeah. I think it's a skill because that's something it's interesting. I almost have the opposite feedback for myself, which in the last, and maybe we talked about this last time we hung out, but I was connected with everyone too frequently. I had built my kind of business in building relationships. Yeah. And I felt like I was spreading myself too thin. Yeah. And I felt the opposite of like, I'm just pouring into everyone else and I don't feel like

people are as invested in me. Yeah. And I was starting to feel like resentful or frustrated or just like, oh, I'm drained, you know? So I was like, let me reclaim my energy. And I had to in the last year and a half say no to people, create boundaries with people, like...

It was more the fear of hurting their feelings if I need to create a boundary or just say no to them. Yeah. They wanted to spend time together. They wanted something. They wanted to come on the show, whatever it is. And I decided to say, no, I can't do this. Yeah. And be okay with disappointing them, letting them down, thinking they're judging me, which was my greatest challenge. Yeah. That's another skill.

That is a skill. I didn't have that skill. You probably had that skill. I've got, I have no problem saying no. You're like, screw you. I don't care. And that was a skill that I've had. I'm like still learning. I haven't mastered it. It's still like a,

It's a muscle I'm building where I'm just like, okay, I have to learn how to be okay with not upsetting. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can know you're reaching the right decision makers. You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills, etc.

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you know, I need to take a deep breath or what if they react or that's how it was. I'm a lot better now. I feel like I've done it a ton this year. Yeah. I've like immersed myself in like boundaries and no's everywhere in my life. Friends, family, like not in a negative way, but just, you need to show up for me. Yeah.

And not in an aggressive way, like screw you, but just like doing the action of no or setting a boundary. Yeah. Removing myself from certain, you know, text groups or things like this that are just, I feel out of alignment with certain things. I need to say no. I need to say no. So a lot of people struggle with this. Gosh, it's so hard. People please them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what is like the first step? Would you say? I think the first step is what you said, which is self-awareness. Yeah. For me, because...

I was feeling it for years, but I was afraid of upsetting people. Afraid of hurting the relationships. And then I would resent the relationship when they would reach out and ask for something from me, but they wouldn't just check in on me. And I'd be like, and I would do it anyways. And then I resent myself for doing something for someone else

When I was frustrated that it didn't just say, hey, what's going on? How are you doing? Or just texting like, hey, hope you're doing well. Yeah. But it was only when they reach out when they wanted something. And I would reach out just be like, hey, I saw you doing something cool. Congratulations. And you know. Yeah.

So that would bug me because maybe I would just assume everyone does what I do, which is like thinking of them. We all do. Wishing the best of them. Yeah. Like checking in when they do something cool online and I'm like, hey, congrats. What can I help with? Yeah. Anyways. That's another, that's actually a great self-awareness point is that we all default to assuming that people do what we do. Exactly. Or think the way that we think, right? That it's, and it's crazy because people are completely different and-

It's interesting too because the say no thing, it's funny because I probably have a very similar reaction that you have hearing my problem. Because when I'm hearing you talk, I'm like... It's so easy. Yeah, I'm like, well, yeah, you just say no to everybody and then the people who are really your friends will stick around. And I'm like...

And I'm like, it's solved, right? The problem's solved. But you probably hear my problem. You're like, yeah, just text everybody. And the people who want to see you will text back. And I'm like, but it's so hard. We have the opposite wound or something. I don't know. That's so interesting. With our powers combined, we would be the perfect friend.

That's so interesting. Well, I think a lot of people struggle with these social skills. And I think it is either emotional or psychological wounds that, or just a lack of self-awareness on how to develop this skill. And that's why I think this is what sets people free. Like I have so much more peace in the last year and a half. Now, the first six months of this, I didn't feel peace. I felt like, ah, this is hard. But now on the other side of developing this skill, let's say the...

I'm level three or four out of 10 maybe of this skill. Like I feel so much more peace and freedom being able to create a boundary, say no, or just not go to someone's party or event and be okay with them being upset with me. Did you have any fallout? Did you have any like people get... Yeah. Yes. I had to say no to people and I had to literally... There's a few people that I...

had to create a boundary with over text. Then I've been on a phone call and just being like, here's why you're not a good friend. Wow. And that was, and I was like trembling inside. Holy. It was like, I had to have the ultimate courage to be like, you haven't made a good friend. Yeah. This is why this doesn't feel good to me. I don't appreciate the way you're treating me. Like, and that was the hardest thing. Wow. Cause I didn't want to upset anyone ever. Yeah. Yeah.

And I did that over and over again in the last year and a half. But then you get to the other side. And I just feel like at peace. And I've also realized the skill of not needing lots of friends. You know all this. You're like, yeah, I have four friends and I don't need everyone to like me. I'm always trying to get people to hate me or whatever. It's like...

That's how you built your business, right? It's like... Pissing off 90% of people and being friends with the other 10. It's funny because you said you grew up kind of feeling bullied and not having a lot of friends. I felt the same way. And I went into, well, let me be friends with everyone. Right. Let me try to get that approval in my 20s. Yeah. And have everyone like me and be the nice guy and over deliver and value so that people see my worth. Well, this is the weird thing about...

childhood wounds, right? Because there's kind of, you can go one of two directions. You can either try to compensate for it for the rest of your life or you can just own it and live in it for the rest of your life, identify with it. And I actually think I tend to be

I've mellowed quite a bit as I've gotten older, but like I tend to be unnecessarily contrarian with people. Yes. Like my first instinct, like anytime, if I'm with a group of people and everybody agrees on something, no, my first instinct is like, they're all wrong. Oh my God. And let me figure out how they're wrong. We find the angle where they're missing something. Exactly. But it's funny because it's been my superpower, right? Like it is that skill and that willingness to

has resulted in a lot of my personal success. But... Gosh, that's interesting. There's been a lot of social situations, relationships, family situations where people are like, Mark, stop being an asshole, dude. Right. You know, like back off, relax. That's interesting. Yeah. Now I've noticed though,

The more boundaries I've created, the more I've developed the skill of boundaries or just saying no and being okay with if there's a consequence. And usually there's not a consequence of saying no. It's just my interpretation of like, oh, am I going to upset them? Yeah. By doing this, I've gotten to the place where you are, which is, okay, you have a handful of key friends. And then the rest of the time I'm with my fiance and I'm happy. I don't need people to like me. Yeah. I don't need all these friends.

To be happy, you know, if I have more friends at a season of life cool if it's less or whatever It's like I'm okay. Do you think the quantity of social relationships was compensating for the lack of depth maybe I was I was also always trying to go deep with people though, too I always wanted to go intimate and deep right away which people are always like Oh, you're going to you're asking these deep questions. We just met each other, right? That's kind of what I do in the show. It's like

What's your darkest secret? You know, it's like, and, um, but I just think I, I, I, I just care deeply about humans also. So there's like a desire to care about humanity and help everyone. But also maybe there was a wound of like, no one liked me as a kid. So, so it was kind of a combination of both. Maybe I used to do that as well. And I've actually, I I've noticed that that is, it's a mistake that I've noticed a lot of young people make or, or younger people make, uh,

And I think it's very well-intentioned. Because I hate small talk. I've hated small talk my entire life. And so when I was younger, I kind of had this naive view of like, I should never have to do small talk. I should just go deep with everybody I meet from day one, first step. What's your life's biggest dream? If you only had a year to live, what would you do with it? All these questions that I used to ask in my 20s. And I think as I've gotten older, I've appreciated that

Depth, like you can't force depth and intimacy. - Involveability right away, yeah. - Absolutely, you can't force it. And then also a huge component of intimacy is simply time, right? It's like, it's simply spending time together. You actually, in many cases, you can develop more trust and comfort and intimacy

hanging out with a friend watching football games every week for a few years than you can like having these super deep profound conversations and like trying to force in like all these personal topics some of it is just being present with someone yes i'm the opposite of you whereas you're like how can i push everyone's buttons and almost push everyone away but build this massive audience because i'm bringing in people who believe in the same type of thought yeah

Where I built my, and you kind of built your business that way, your blog and your books that way. I built my business through relationships. I started doing, hosting networking events in 2008, 9, 10. And I was like, oh, I'm building an audience and making money through relationships, networking, creating experiences, creating groups. Like that was kind of how I built it.

So I felt like I had to keep doing that. Yeah. And I think I can only do that so much. Yeah. Of personal time invested in all these different people. It just became too much. Yeah. And I think there's probably like a...

a prioritization. I don't want to call it a ranking or like a tier system, but you know, it's there, there probably needs to be clarity in your own life of like, okay. Friend circles, right? Like this is my friend. So at least these are the people I really care about. And then these are like acquaintances, people I like, but like, you know, I see them for work related stuff or I talk to them for work related stuff, but like, we're not, we're not besties. And then there's like colleagues and then there's like, okay, people you just do partnerships with or something. Yeah, totally. Totally. Not everyone needs to be your friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But I used to want to make everyone my friend. You know what I mean? But I didn't understand not everyone needs to be your friend. Yeah, yeah. You can be friendly with everyone. Yeah. But... There's a difference. I mean, it's almost... You actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything, right? Ooh, that's interesting. Like you... Gosh. It's unrealistic to expect that you're going to connect or see eye to eye with every single person that you ever meet. You actually...

The fact that you don't connect or see eye to eye with some people you meet is significant because it means that you have some degree of identity and uniqueness and values and prioritizations that differ from others. And like, that's fine. That's totally fine. Yeah.

That's cool. Okay. So we got self-awareness, we got feedback. What would be another skill that you think from all the research you've been doing lately that if people can learn to develop or master this psychological or emotional skill, it would improve the quality of their life? Feedback, I'd say communication, communicating effectively with people. I think... What's the key to having powerful communication? I think the most important thing in communicating effectively

within relationships is distinguishing between, and this ties into the feedback thing and the criticism and the judgment and everything, is like distinguishing your comments about a person's thoughts or actions versus the person themselves. I think many people's, it's instinctual for us. Like let's say you say something that I completely disagree with, right? It is a human instinct for me to be like,

"Lewis, you're wrong. You're an idiot. You're all this and that." And we have to teach ourselves to separate the idea from the person, right? The behavior that you're doing. Or the behavior from the person. And instead say, "Hey, Lewis, I disagree with that idea and I don't really like it and this is why."

have maintaining respect for the person while disagreeing about the idea. So when someone has like a belief or a statement, instead of saying you're a horrible person for thinking that. Yes, exactly. Don't say like, how, how despicable are you for having this opinion? Exactly. Instead say something like, wow, that opinion doesn't resonate with me. Yeah. Or why do you think that? I disagree, but why do you think that? Right? Like lead into it with, with curiosity and it's,

And understanding that it's okay to disagree about things, even like relatively important or even ethical things without necessarily hating or disrespecting the person. And I think this, this is particularly important in, in romantic relationships, right? Like my wife and I, we have,

extremely different standards when it comes to cleanliness. Are you the clean one or is she the clean one? Oh, she is definitely the clean one. It probably drives her nuts if you don't live up to some standard, right? Absolutely, right? And then she's Brazilian and so we have different standards when it comes to punctuality. She's three hours late. Yeah, exactly. It's like she starts getting ready when it's time to be there. And it's

It's funny because a lot of us, we tie up things like cleanliness, organization, punctuality. Like a lot of us, we often attach these things to moral judgments. Like we, it is very natural and normal to assume if somebody's 45 minutes late, like if I showed up 45 minutes late for this podcast,

It's a total natural reaction to be like, wow, Mark's kind of an a**hole. That's really disrespectful. I don't like him, right? Or if somebody just leaves all their dirty dishes out everywhere, it's like, wow, what a mess of a person. What kind of person does this? And we jump immediately to the judgment of the character of the person without understanding that you can have different

viewpoints, prioritizations, or just perceptions of what is clean, what's not clean, what is on time, what's not on time. And again, it's love the sinner, hate the sin. Separate the action from the person and try to refrain as much as possible, not letting the distaste of the behavior

and your judgment doesn't be individual. - Have you ever done any therapy for yourself? - Oh yeah, oh yeah. - What's the biggest lesson you've learned from therapy? - You know what's funny? So I did therapy for most of my 20s and it was really funny. I went in, so earlier I was talking about how I blew up a bunch of relationships for no good reason.

And it was as soon as I had awareness around that, like I think it was after the third or fourth relationship that I ruined, I started, I'm like, huh, I think I'm the problem. And as soon as I realized that, I...

I signed up for therapy. Wow. And I was probably 23 or something. That's like young. Yeah. Like therapy wasn't cool 17 years ago. No, no, no. For men. Especially for men. Yeah. That's a very self-aware thing of you at 23 to sign up for therapy. Yeah. Yeah. I was really in the meditation at the time. So I was doing a lot of meditation retreats and I was really in the Buddhism and stuff. And so I think therapy was just kind of seemed like a natural extension of that. But...

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so i remember i went to therapy and i intentionally chose a male therapist and because i want to talk about girls right like that was in my head that was my issue it's like oh all these girls they're crazy you know i can't keep a girlfriend around you know there's all this drama going on and i remember i sat down with with him and we started talking and i was like i have all these girl problems i really want to like sort through them with somebody

And we spent the next two months talking about my parents. Like we never, like the girlfriends never even came up. It was just all childhood parents the entire time. And there was just so much stuff back there, like down there, like stuff I never thought about. There were so many times where like I would describe something to him and he would just look at me and he'd be like, yeah, that sounds like me.

Trauma, you know and I'm like really and he's like, yeah, that's not normal, you know And it like I had no idea no idea cuz we all grow up assuming that our childhood is normal We assume that it's everybody's childhood that everybody's family operates the way our family operated Everybody's mother is the way our mother was right? Like we never consider that it could be different or that the way we grew up was unusual in some way and

So coming back to the self-awareness piece, like that's incredibly powerful when you realize like, Hey, the water I've been swimming in since I was a child is not normal water. Like this is, this is rocky waters. Yeah. This is, this is all splashing around and messed up. Like I'm not seeing, seeing clearly. So that, that was very, uh, very powerful for me. And, um, the second thing I remember, this was before I started my career or anything. I remember, uh,

kind of once I got towards the end of the therapy and he and I started talking about ending it, he actually told me, he was like, you know, you'd be pretty good at this. I was like, really? He's like, yeah. If you, if you're still thinking about careers, you should consider psychology. I was like, I was like, yeah, we'll see. Let's do it. Look at you now. I know. Right. Speaking of psychology and the self-help world, what is the advice in the self-help world right now that you think people should ignore?

ignore. Like what's out there in the world that you're seeing people speaking about or content or people saying, ah, you should do this, but you actually shouldn't do that. You know, it's not so much that something should be ignored, but I do think there are a number of things that like

tend to get overrated or or maybe overrated at the moment like i think they there's certain things that get a lot of traction on social media and so they they just get spread everywhere and then people start kind of exaggerating what they are like i'll give you one example um

is narcissism. - I knew you were gonna say that. - Yeah. - I knew you were gonna say this because I just feel like, I literally knew you were gonna say this. I was gonna say it before you, but I wanna miss it. 'Cause I feel like that's all people talk about. - It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. I see it on a million accounts. I see, like whenever I post anything about it, it gets shared a million times.

And I've been running into it, you know, in conversations with people and fans, like people start like, well, you know, I've had all these narcissists in my life and I had to cut them out. And I'm like, whoa, okay, hold on, time out. And like narcissism is a thing, obviously. It's a very bad thing. It's a very difficult thing to deal with, but it's not necessarily around every corner. And the problem with narcissism is that it's, it's, you need to have extended exposure to a person to like properly diagnose it.

You can't just be with somebody for a month or a few months or have them do one thing mean to you or be selfish in one way and be like, oh, well, they're a narcissist and I shouldn't have to ever deal with them again. And I think it's people are using it as an excuse to exit difficult situations and difficult relationships that in reality could probably be improved with a certain amount of patience and work. So I worry about that. I worry there's a lot of statistics around narcissism.

parents are kids cutting off their parents and and I think a lot of it is is you know, the narcissistic parents is kind of becoming the just or toxic parents is the justification for it and it really makes me uncomfortable because You can have really terrible parents but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to Eliminate them from your life permanently. You could a boundary exactly and I I feel like people are just

Using narcissism as an excuse to not do the hard work of boundaries. Yeah. Man, that's interesting. Okay. So that's something you feel like is getting either overblown up or overrated in terms of where it's at. Is there any other self-help or personal development advice you're seeing in the world that you feel like, I don't know if that's actually the best approach? Maybe not a person who's saying something, but a... A concept. Yeah, a concept around...

I've got a whole rant about manifestation. My audience loves manifestation. I know they do. It's going to trigger everyone. I know they do. Trigger warning. Mark's coming in on the manifestation. Let's hear it. It's not that it's wrong.

like it's it is a thing right it's just i don't like the explanation for it which is you know it what's the explanation you hear that you don't like the explanation i hear is very woo and like in it and and also there's a little bit speaking of narcissism there's a little bit of kind of spiritual narcissism in it of like of like oh if you really wish for something you really focus on it the universe is going to conspire to give it to you because you know there's energy in the world and it's all going to like co like i'm

I'm like, come on, really? Look, as somebody, there are very well understood, well documented cognitive biases in psychology. Our minds are not 100% accurate. We perceive things inaccurately. One way to think about it is that

It is there's a lot of information in the world and it's and our minds are not fully capable of processing all the information at all given times and so our mind uses shortcuts to

narrow in and focus on what matters. Your mind can't process everything that it's perceiving, right? So your mind takes shortcuts. And one of those shortcuts is something known as confirmation bias. And it's confirmation bias is super simple, which is basically whatever you are thinking about, your perception will look for in your environment, right? So everybody's- Is that like a placebo or no? I mean, everybody's experienced this many times. So for example, let's say you're thinking about buying a new car.

You probably go years without paying much attention to what other cars are on the highway. But as soon as you think to yourself, I'm going to buy a new car. I think I'm going to switch models. Suddenly, every day you're driving to work and you notice every single car around you. You're like, huh, I wonder what that one is. I wonder if that's expensive.

"That one looks nice. Maybe I'll get that." And like suddenly, because you've prioritized cars in your mind, you start noticing them in your environment in a way that you never noticed before. And this has a very noticeable effect. So like if I tell you that the color orange is going to be very important in your life over the next week,

You start seeing it everywhere. You probably see the color orange a million times a day, but you never care and you never think about it. But if I tell you that and you believe it, you'll start noticing orange in all these little things that you do all the time. So you can leverage cognitive bias in your favor, which is by focusing and thinking about your goals, right? It's like if I want to achieve something really important,

If I focus and think about that day after day after day, I will start noticing opportunities or things that could help me achieve that in my environment, going about my day-to-day life. Now, those opportunities and things were always there. I just wasn't paying attention to them. Because I've been thinking about it regularly, now I notice them, right? Mm-hmm.

So it's manifestation. There's nothing manifesting. It was already there. It was there the whole time. You just didn't prioritize it. So you never noticed. And so it's, this is what I mean when it's like, it's not wrong. It's just described poorly. Right. And I'm like,

And I'm a science nerd, so I'm like, well, why can't we just call it leveraging cognitive bias? Well, that's not very catchy and it doesn't sell a lot of books. That's interesting. No, I like this approach, though, because there are certain people that will just say, oh, if you just think about it, it comes to you or whatever. The universe is conspiring in your favor. And when you set an intention, it all floods your way.

which whether you believe that or not, what you said is actually what a lot of people talk about with manifestation. Yes. These things are already out there. Yes. And when you put your intention on a goal, a vision, a dream, whatever you want to create, then you can go find that thing through daily actions. Yes. And the more clear your intention and the more active you're thinking about that thing and acting on it,

the closer you're going to find it, the quicker you're going to find it. Absolutely. You call that cognitive bias, not manifestation. You can call it whatever you want. It's just, it's the explanation that drives me crazy. I hear you. You know, it's like, it's when I hear the flighty woo woo, oh, the universe is, your energy is aligned with this and that. I'm like, I'm yeah. I'm like, whatever, man. Yeah, it works. Okay, great.

You call it confirmation bias. It is. In psychology, we've known it for 50 years. That's great. Confirmation bias, it's a thing. You can totally leverage it in your favor. I love it. Whatever it is you believe, if you're taking the actions around, whether you call it confirmation bias or anything else. It's the intention and the action. That's it. That's it. There you go. Okay, perfect. So we agree on that. I agree on that, yeah. So it's the way certain people explain it when they don't add those things. That's what frustrates me.

And the explanation does matter because bad explanations, people can start making poor assumptions based on bad explanations. 100%. So it's like if you, let's say you set an intention for a certain goal and it doesn't work out, you know? Like it ends up being harder than you expected or maybe you achieve it and it doesn't make you happy. Well, now you've got this like cosmological conundrum of like, well, maybe the universe doesn't want me to be happy. Well, no.

No, it's just you thought you wanted a thing and you got it and now you actually realize it doesn't make you happy. Very human experience. Completely normal. Wow. That's good. I just have a natural allergy to the...

The cosmological woo-woo explanations because I just, I think it can get people into trouble. Sure, sure, sure. It makes sense. What is the, you know, being 40 now, what is the skill you think you're going to need to learn to master for the next four years of your life? Oh, man. Because you've created so much. You've accomplished so much. You've got, you know.

probably every type of goal you want to accomplish, you've done it a million times over with the amount of books you've sold and all the things you've created and the lives you've impacted and being married for eight plus years now and all these different things. But for the next 40, what's the skill you need to master to, to feel happy or abundant or joyful or, you know, I feel happy and abundant and joyful. I don't, I don't know. It's,

I don't know, maybe you're in the same spot, but like, it's actually, I was talking to a friend about this just a couple days ago, how early in my career, you know, I was messed up. I was still working through a lot of shit, right? And so,

there was a certain like energy and fire to my work because it was also my therapy. Like, you know, it's like I, like my relationships are falling apart and I've got all this self doubt and insecurity in these areas of my life. And it just, it like fueled a very passionate output. And I really do feel like I've reached a point in my life where

most areas of my life I'm pretty satisfied with. Like there's obviously always things I could do better and there's some areas that I think I could get better at. But ultimately, all in all, I'm like, I'm in a really good place and I feel like I've figured out a lot of my crap. And

And it's interesting being in this industry now because it's like some of that fire is gone or that edge has been taken off. Because you're peaceful and you're happy. I'm peaceful. Like, I'm good, man. I don't need to get angry about stuff. Interesting. And so... So maybe it's letting go of something or, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. And also it's... Just enjoying it all now. It's like... That's what I would say is... Not having to freaking prove yourself or do the next big thing. That would be the skill. That's interesting. Is not...

like being, just being, being, you know, like, wow, not feeling like I need to go conquer more stuff. And, and I feel like I really, especially in the last year or two, like, I really feel like I'm kind of arriving at that place where it's like, I've got a bunch of business goals, but it's just fun. Like I'm just doing it because it's awesome and fun. And I have goals in my personal life and my health and my relationships, but it's, it's really just because

It's just good. It's just fun. It's like good for me. It's good for the people around me. There's nothing, I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to like win anything or, and it's just, it's a great place to be. And I just really hope I can stay here. I don't get like sucked, you know, captivated by some chasing, chasing some rat race somewhere, you know? So I think that's really interesting. You say that because there's a lot of people, um,

Most people don't have that skill. Yeah. And I think that is, and there's a season for that skill. Cause I think when you're 22 and you're broke and you're trying to like, you shouldn't have it develop, you know, talents and skills where you can add value to people in society. You've got to have hustles the right word, but you've got to work hard. You've got to overcome challenges. You've got to deliver value. You've got to figure out what your path is. Um, but there's a, I come back to this quote that Jim Carrey said, um,

a few years ago when he was like retiring, although I just saw that he's got his, I think his final movie's coming out right now. But the interview, someone interviewed him. He's like, yeah, I think I'm done with like acting. Yeah. And the interviewer was really sad. And he said, why? You can't. You're like so great and amazing. And he goes, well, I'm going to tell you something that I don't think any celebrity would ever tell you. That is that I have enough, I am enough, or I have enough, I've done enough, and I am enough. Yeah.

And he's like, I don't think any celebrity will ever tell you that. Yeah. But at Jim Carrey's age and success, like he's got like three, four decades of fricking wins, right? And like unlimited wealth and fame. So maybe at that level he felt like, yes, but he didn't feel that 20 years prior. Yeah. You know, but it's, it's, he felt, he looked peaceful knowing that he doesn't have to go do more. Yeah. To fulfill something for himself to feel enough.

And I think that's a very powerful skill. And even if you're in your 20s or 30s and you're like, well, I still want to do more. Yeah. It's how can you do it from a place of I am enough no matter what the outcome is. Right. That's the key. That is power. That's the key. And it's hard though because like, oh, what if you would have never sold this many copies or never been on New York Times bestseller or never? Yeah. Would you still be like, oh, I got to prove something. I got to become better to like.

Do this thing. I don't know. Maybe I'm naive, but I feel like a lot of older folks reach this place kind of naturally, you know? And it's, I don't know, what you just described, that feeling of enough, that, like, to me, that feels like the best definition of success that you could possibly have is having enough. Man. So...

I don't know if I'm quite there, but this is definitely the closest I've ever been in my life. And I'm definitely in a place too where I'm not wanting for anything. I've got a great relationship. I've got friends. I've got hobbies. My health's good. My business is great. So as long as nothing deteriorates, I've won already. You've won big, man. And I think having peace with where you're at, because a lot of people, I think suffering is...

not being happy with what you have. Yes. And it's like, there are people that we know who have a lot that aren't happy or they still feel like they need more in order to fulfill something. Yeah. And that doesn't seem like peace to me. Yeah. And I don't know, even if I feel like, oh gosh, I've got all the money in the world or whatever it might be, I feel like I'm still going to want to pursue things, but not out of like proving people wrong or proving that I can do something, but just because it's

It's going to serve people and it's going to serve me and I'm going to enjoy it. Yeah. And I think that's where hopefully people can get. I think the service thing is the key. It kind of flips it around, right? I think when you're young, you want to prove something, prove you're enough, have enough, right? And then once you feel like you have enough, you kind of just want to give it back. You kind of want to like,

help other people up. 100%. Well, you're doing that in a big way with your YouTube series that you have. And you do a lot of like kind of docu-style videos on psychological skills and mindsets and things like that where people can learn. I want people to follow you on YouTube. What's the best place we can go follow you there or your site? Check out Mark Manson on YouTube. I'm on all the social accounts. I'm on everything. Check out my podcast.

I'm everywhere. You can't escape me, man. That's it, man. Every bookstore, every website, everywhere. It's great, man. Yeah, if you haven't checked out Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** Yet, check it out. If you're trying to learn how to stop people pleasing and to create boundaries, that's a great book. It's a good book for it, yeah. So check that out, markmanson.net. You're doing a lot of long-form content in your podcast as well right now. You're diving deeper into subjects. People can check that out.

Is it IamMarkManson on YouTube or is it Mark Manson? Just Mark Manson. Mark Manson on YouTube. And everyone on social media. Where's your main platform? Is it Instagram or X or where do you like to share the most bite-sized content? Instagram. Instagram. Check me out on Instagram. Mark Manson over there. Yeah. Mark, appreciate you as always, man. Thanks for giving us these kind of skills that I think will help us improve the quality of our life. Always my pleasure. I'm excited now. Thank you. Cool.

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