Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? Part Two
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In this following session, we discuss sexual assault and I want you to know this before you listen. Last week, I had a session with a young black American woman who had sent in a question: "Do I think there is such a thing as sexual incompatibility?" But as we started talking, it became very quickly clear that this was not really about incompatibility.

This was about her experience of rape and how she had found a way to re-engage sexually with her partner

by creating a script in which she was in charge of everything so that she would never again feel the passivity, the helplessness and the powerlessness that had marked that experience of rape that she went through. And what you're going to hear now is my conversation with her current partner, who I invited to meet with me because I really needed to hear her

his side of the story. How was all of this landing on him? How much was he personalizing this? Because he kept being rejected, so how could he not think this has to do with him or this has to do with her rather than this has to do with what was done to her?

And so this is my conversation with him and it starts on the heels of my discussing with her what has been the effect of this traumatic event on her current sexual intimacy with her boyfriend. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Procrastination. Putting it off. Kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done.

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That's why eBay is my go-to for all my go-tos. Yeah, eBay, the place for new, pre-loved, vintage and rare fashion. eBay, things people love. You know, I ended the conversation with your girlfriend and I just thought I would love to hear how he sees it.

And I said, I don't know if you've had a conversation since she and I spoke. So tell me where I meet you. Do you know, even know what we're supposed to talk about or how this came to be? So I can fill in the gaps. Yeah. I mean, we spoke about the conversation that you guys had. It was about how we're not always on the same time schedule when it comes to intimacy.

I don't know. It's just been something that I think has been more of a challenge navigating than other relationships that were more casual, I suppose. It felt like originally, you know, when we first met that we were more on the same page. But I don't know, somewhere along the way, I'm not exactly sure like what changed. Yeah. How would you describe your experience?

from where you are, when I say, tell me what stands out for you and your sexual relationship with your girlfriend, what would you say? When we do have sex, it's good. But I think a lot of the time she doesn't want to be as present. I don't really know why that is. I think a lot of the time it's, you know, she doesn't always like

want to engage, which is okay. I guess my point is that sex once a week or something like that, you know, is normal, you know, or what I would see, you know, as normal. And what are some of the questions that you carry inside of you that either you haven't asked her or haven't found the answers satisfying?

Well, I'm pretty open about asking questions. So I don't really think there's anything that I've been wanting to ask that I haven't asked. And any questions you've asked where the answer didn't really meet you? I just think that when I ask, like, what could be done differently? You know, she'll say, like, I need to...

prolong my, I guess, like advances. You know, just based on how our daily schedules are and the time that we have, you know, realistically in a day, I just don't really know how, what I could do differently. And that's never really been made, you know, very clear to me. We just kind of like dance around it. Mm-hmm.

What is foreplay like? Usually, I'll be the one to initiate. I'll rub the outer part of her thigh or her stomach or something, intimate places like that. There's been a lot of times where she's had to tell me, "Oh, this or that spot triggers me." That way, it's been a learning process.

But it's always me initiating and feeling my way through. If we do engage intimately, it'll be a while of me kind of rubbing here and there and we might kiss some. There's a lot of the times where I'll start.

the foreplay and then, you know, I'll get like stopped and we've talked about it. And she says, like, you know, it's just something that she's not fully like, you know, conscious of when it's happening, like a knee jerk reaction. So that part of it kind of makes it difficult because I'm like, I'm having to interpret signals that are

coming across negatively and remember not to read into it or something of that nature. And so it can make things a bit confusing at times. When you say triggering, you mean what? You know, just make something that makes her feel uncomfortable. But from uncomfortable, that makes her either want to stop or

or that makes her continue but not really be present? Yeah, like she might knock my hand away or something, and if I do continue, then she might let me continue but not really be present. So it can make things kind of confusing, and it can make me get easily frustrated. And then what do you do?

I mean, I try to be okay, but I mean, everything has its limits, you know, and eventually I do hit a wall where I'm like, okay, like I'm starting to get annoyed and we talk about it and you say you've been working on it, but nothing's happening. You know, so I start to want to shut down because I'm like, I don't really know what's happening here. Right.

That's part of why I wanted to invite you to be in the conversation. Because I had a sense that if it keeps repeating itself like this, then it starts to feel that we are incompatible because we're stuck. We keep circling back and knowing at the same bone. And one piece is what actually is happening and how do we understand what goes on.

And the second one is how do we circle around it so that we don't come back to it, but we expand and we open up a different sexual expression between us that doesn't trigger her. And when you say trigger, do you know what it goes back to? Mm-hmm. You do? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Is it different when she initiates? Yeah, but it's so rare.

that I can't even tell you the last time that she initiated. You know, sometimes I like to say that foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm and not a few minutes before the real thing, the supposed real thing. That's number one. So the first thing is, how do you start long before you start? You know, it's like if you're going to cook a beautiful meal,

You start by deciding what you want to cook. Then it's about where you're going to get the ingredients, what you're going to get. Then it's about preparing all the ingredients. Then it's about all the cooking. And then it's about setting the table. And then it's about eating. Do you know how many steps before people swallow their first bite? Sex has something similar to it. Especially...

When you are with someone who is struggling to find her own desire and who at this moment needs to experience that sense of freedom in order to be comfortable in sex so that it doesn't feel, I'm doing what you want. I'm responding to what you want from me. I'm so much dealing with what you want from me that I cannot ask myself, what do I want for myself?

So it almost would say you start with sweet messages. Whatever the things that you do during the day that make the other person know that they're on your mind, that you're thinking of them, it's a way of cultivating the desire and the connection outside of when it's meant to happen. And you may do all of that already, but I want to repeat it because it's more important than we often think.

And then when you want to turn someone on, you actually don't need to go to their genitals actually, but you go where there is absolutely no demand for a response because the response will come when there is no demand, but the response will freeze when there is a sense that there is an expectation. And nothing has anything to do with you and you've done nothing wrong and nothing

This is not about you. This is about sexual healing that needs to take place for her. You understand? It's like with someone else, you may have none of this and you're not doing anything wrong. Just want to make that really, really clear. Well, yeah. Yeah, that's what I meant when I said like past relationships that were more casual, you know, there wasn't all this. So I'm not used to that. That's right. So this one isn't casual.

And that's part of why this is all, you know, this one is deep and meaningful and important for both of you. And that's why you want to make sure that we take the correct exit from the beginning and not that you get lost, the two of you, in bad weeds. Yeah, I agree. Part of the go slower part.

You know, I once did a session with 200 men and one guy asked me, "What does woman want? What should we know here?" And my first answer from having spoken so much with women was, "Slow down. Don't just approach when it's sex, when it's meant to go for penetration and intercourse. Just play. Play without demands."

Kiss, stroke, lick, shower, whatever you do, you know, that you enjoy, but without a demand. Yeah. And I think, you know, that kind of goes back to where like a lot of the time when I do those things and there isn't a demand, she still feels like there is. You have to tell her, today we play and there is no demand. Right.

At best, you jerk off yourself or she'll play with you, but really state it. I just want to touch you. I want to kiss you. I want to hold you. I want to lick you, but no vulva. Just your neck, your ears, your hand. Stay away from the genitals and make it clear. We're having a different kind of sex today. We're going to have an erotic experience. It doesn't have to be the act of sex.

And even if she wants to, you say, no, you can't. Okay. Afterwards, if she really wants to, then do whatever you want. But just, it's about trust. It's about making it last that long till she trusts you, that you really won't make her do anything she doesn't want to do.

Which she knows isn't what you mean. She trusts you. She loves you. She knows you're a good guy. But this is what trigger means. Yeah. And it's an honor to be the person who's going to be there to heal with her. A challenge, that's for sure. A challenging honor. A challenging honor, yeah. You took the words out of my mouth.

You said what I thought. And the reason I asked you if it's different when she initiates is because sometimes the experience for some women is that in the initiating, I know I'm doing what I want. Well, yeah. When she initiates, then it's basically straight to sex. Slow it down, too. If you can, slow it down, too.

Because it's about challenging the frames of mind. I know you get hard, you get turned on, you get aroused, you get excited, you want to, you know, that's there. But I think it needs new input. It's not what a guy expects from me. It's not what every guy wants. It's not what every woman needs to do. It's not the way I can keep him. It's not the way I will prevent him from leaving. It's not, it's all of those things.

thoughts roaming and capturing a person's freedom and imagination. We've been trying to redefine the lines of communication around intimacy. Well, last night, I mean, I told her, you know, like, I'm not going to ask if you want to have sex anymore. If you want to have sex, you just, you know, it's up to you. So we're trying that for a while and we'll see.

But when you say we're not going to have sex, where does sex start for you? Well, not that we're not going to have sex, that I'm not going to bring it up. Right. And sex starts where? Meaning I'm not going to pressure you. I'm not going to push you. I'm not going to be the one to constantly think about it, ask for it. And what is it? What is the it? Where does it start? Well, I guess with foreplay. Keep going. Do you just ask?

to be held, do you ask to be kissed, do you ask to have her hand in your hair? I mean, are there things that are not the sex demand, but they are physical, they are even sensual, they are even erotic, energetic, but they don't necessarily say, we're going to do sex. Where does that feature?

I think that I definitely do those things, you know, like I'll massage her or something like that. Maybe I'll like rubber feet or something. But usually like if I do those things, I don't transition into sex from there. Sometimes I will, but I find that I get a similar reaction either way. And if you ask for something?

Can you ask? That is not what you call sex. Can you ask for physical expressions? Yeah. I mean, usually, like, there isn't an issue with that. I think it just depends on, like, where I'm touching, you know. Can you imagine that she has a whole body and you don't have to go for the genitals or the boobs unless she takes your hand and brings it there? But the body is the biggest sexual organ, the skin.

Followed by the mind. Yeah. Well, I will try not going, not touching the very erratic areas at all unless she, you know, takes it there. Or take her hand and just tell her, you take my hand where you want it to go.

And say it. What I called it with her is I said, you be the driver of the driver. Because you're working hard at trying to guess what does she like, what does she want, what is okay, what is not okay. And it's tough. Right, yeah, it's exhausting. And it makes you doubt yourself and you feel like you're losing your confidence and the natural feeling of it all. So just say, here's my hand. You take it anywhere you want it to be.

Could be on her face, could be on her neck, on her shoulder. It will feel nice because you will feel like she's in it with you. It won't be about what it is that you're doing. It's the fact that it's being done together rather than you're hoping that you're not having a mishap, that you're not walking a thin line of where is it wrong and where's the mistake and where is she going to shut down.

So the pleasure will come from staying connected at first, not from the big production. Shall we check that with her? See if that's something. Yeah. Thank you. And I'll be right back. I'm going to go get it. Okay. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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How have you been since we spoke? Good. I was asking him what you had brought from our conversation so that I could bridge and what stood out for you, kind of what stayed. I think the biggest thing that really stuck with me was that it's not so much that we're incompatible more than I need the space to be able to

I don't know, like share my desire and that maybe like changing the way that we initiate driving the driver really stuck out to me. Like that's the one thing that really has stuck in my head. Like driving the driver. Did you try it? No. How come? I think I just am scared. To? To try it.

I want it to work and I want it to be something that's like successful for us. So I'm scared that it's going to fail. Tell me something. Do you drive a bicycle? Yeah. Do you think that when you learn to bicycle, you never fell off? No, I definitely did. Yeah, I definitely fell. And did you become a good bicycle driver?

Yeah. All right. So success is not something that happens in the first try. You fell, you got your bearings, you learn to do slower, faster, to stay upright. And you don't think about any of this over the many, many years that you've been riding a bike. But it's going to be the same. To find a groove sexually is not something that you do once and it works or it doesn't work.

That's not the way it works sexually. It's a different story. But it demands a lot of good communication between the two of you. More than anything else. And that's part of why I thought, I'd love to meet him and have him in the conversation because I could see how it becomes a story of we are incompatible when that's not what this is about. And it's not about I like droplets and he pours a bucket.

It's about really communicating with him what feels good and taking the initiative of telling him you're not going to offend each other. You're actually going to feel that you're bold and brazen and you're investing into this dialogue that's called the sexual communication. And you may not know instantly what's the way to drive the driver.

And you may think it's this, but then afterwards you realize it's that. But one thing you know is that driving the driver is a way of feeling that you are not pushed, coerced, and controlled, but that you experience your own taking charge, your own freedom, your own desire, your own autonomy. And that that's something that he can join you in. That's not something that you're doing against him.

Because there's nothing more exciting than to see someone who's into it. Yeah. Is that a fair statement? Yes. I don't really know where to go from here. From here. All right. So one thing I said was foreplay is not the thing you do just five minutes before the real deal. To me, foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm.

It's the way that you cultivate an erotic energy that lingers so that you don't have to get someone into it. You don't have to get them in the mood. You don't have to turn them on. There's an energy that is present. And the most important thing to start for both of you is to not have pressure, for you not to feel like,

There's an expectation that you're either going to meet and dissociate or not meet, and then he's going to be frustrated and rejected. So that's the dance you're trying to step out of. So no stimulation through genital touching or thigh or boobs or breasts because that's all very explicit. It says, I want sex, we're going to have sex.

And there's nothing wrong with this. It's just that when you are in the presence of even the most loving man and he tells you, I want sex, that doesn't invite you in a good space. Yeah. So it's, I love being next to you. I'm with you. This feels nice. I want to touch you. I want to kiss you. I want to hold you. Many, many times it will stop right there.

And that's when you will learn to trust that you don't have to subject yourself. And that's when you have a much better chance of coming to him because he's not after you.

You know, otherwise it becomes the I'm counting days while you're counting days and I'm looking at you looking at me to tell you that I know what you're thinking, even though you're not saying it. And it becomes this whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I'm asking him too. No, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Does she know that I'm thinking that I know that she's not thinking that, you know, he wants it. That's on his mind. It's not on her mind. When will it ever be on her mind? It's never on her mind. I'm tired of this. I've never been like this. This is not the way I've known my relationships to be. Oh, I better do something because he's getting upset. And it becomes this whole surveillance system. That's not intimacy in which each of you is looking at what is the threshold of the other.

So you start by asking him things that feel good. That's it. If he touches you and it doesn't feel right, take his hand and put it where you like it. Even if it doesn't move. If you just put it here and that's where you want it to be, he'll stay there for a while. If you want to move it from your chest and bring it to your neck, he'll stay there for a while. Because he will appreciate you're there with him.

It'll slow it down. You may have less intercourse for a while, but you will shift this. You want to be able to keep your eyes open and just be in front of him and synchronize your breathing together a little bit and know that there is no demand, no coercion, no control. So a couple of weeks ago, we had tried...

like sensate touching where we would touch each other um and sex was like completely off the table for the time that we were doing the exercises during that time like it was working for me like I felt myself opening up more and like being able to let go but it didn't last very long meaning

We just kept getting kind of like stuck in this, the same cycle. Like it's not, it's taking a little bit too long for you to initiate sex. So I'm going to initiate and I'm not really responding to that. And it's like the same. This is a question to you, sir, because it's going to be a bit frustrating, but you're going to get your girlfriend to be present with you.

And then it will be an offer that you can't refuse. Wow. That's the challenge, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to be more patient now. And when she's present, if you can tell her what it feels like for you to have her there with you, even if it's just sitting next to each other or naked face to face and do nothing. You know, sex isn't just...

intercourse. It's a broad landscape and people can do sex and feel nothing and people can do very little and feel highly erotic and you'll encourage him to jerk off if he wants that, if he needs the release, if he enjoys the release. You'll do it sometimes if you feel like it because it's a nice and fun thing to receive without feeling I'm obliged. But you want to be more demanding and

rather than just avoiding. Demanding in the good sense of the word. I guess that's something I have to practice. I am not used to it. You can write him a note. You can put it on the fridge. Tonight for tomorrow, little request. You can play with this. Don't make this very serious. Anything on the menu, anything I can serve you. Would you like any special room service? I mean, play with this.

Open yourself to the discoveries that will come along. There's a whole world to talk about. And it has less to do with what you do and more with what you're dreaming of, what you're imagining, what you're thinking about. When we were doing the exercises, I found myself like fantasizing about it and about him. Do you know that?

That's a conversation we had just last night. I asked the question, do you ever get turned on when we're together? And she says, yes. And I said, well, when's the last time? And she says, a couple of weeks ago. And I said, well, I didn't know anything about this. Why didn't you act on it, communicate it? And she said, I don't know. So start asking her, tell me what you think.

Tell me what it feels like. Track it in a nice, gentle way. Ask each other. You know, some people find doing sex much easier than talking about it. And most people have a much easier time talking about sex with everybody but the person that they're having sex with. When you say, you didn't tell me, ask her, what was it? Do you know? Yeah, we talked about it, yeah. And what was it like for you to hear it? I mean...

I don't know. I guess my immediate thought was just, you know, like, I wish I knew. So that's not the end of the story. From there, I think the sense of focus is great because it gives you a zone where you know it's not going to go, so you get to explore in everything else. And turned on, what she described was my mind was turned on. My imaginative space got lit up.

It doesn't mean just I got lubricated, I got wet, I got all excited physically. For her, it will start up in the head and then it will travel down. If these lips open, so will the ones between her legs. So the kissing will be a lot more of a turn-on than any of the targeted touching. Does that feel to you part of the honor or part of the challenge?

The foreplay, you mean? Yeah, everything I just described now. No, I mean, I enjoy foreplay. I just, you know, am used to this feeling of anytime I try to initiate foreplay, it's just...

She automatically feels pressure. So it's, you know, I do it anyway, but I always feel like, you know, she's not going to be into it because she automatically is going to just go to that place. You're going to tell her up front. Right. You will tell her up front, this is for us to play. No pressure, no demand after that. Trust me. And even if you want to, I won't let you. Because if you don't let her, she will want more. Yeah.

When I describe it, do you feel the playfulness in it or do you get more in touch with your frustration? No, I mean, I definitely understand where you're coming from. And I'm definitely open to more foreplay. And it's to be determined, you know, what the results will be and how long.

it'll take for these things to work because so far it's been a challenge. But yeah, I mean, I want for that to work, you know, for it to be easy. When you say work, you mean what? What is work in sex for you?

Well, what I mean is, you know, I want for us to just be able to just coexist intimately and we touch and kiss and maybe one thing leads to another sometimes. You know what I mean? And to me, that's normal. But I just feel like as of late, that hasn't been happening. There hasn't really been any leeway for that.

So, I mean, we'll see, you know, I'm going to do what you said with communicating. This isn't about sex. And we'll see. I mean, it's every day. It's one day at a time. You know, see, the thing is, it actually is sex. But sex isn't just something you do. In my mind, sex is a place where you go inside yourself and with another person.

Our deepest emotional needs are expressed in the physicality of sex. And that's the conversation. It's like, where do you go? What does it mean for you? Where does it take you? What part of you gets expressed there? And that's a different way of talking about sex and about turn-ons and about arousal. And it will open a whole new door for both of you. We are in the midst of our session.

There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. People can do the act sex and nothing happens to them. And what you want is something to happen to both of you and between the two of you. Don't wait because you're looking for the right moment, when I'm comfortable, when he's okay. The more he will know that you are engaged in this with him, the better it will be for him. Otherwise it feels lonely.

I'm the only one who cares. You could have a little notebook in which you write your thoughts, your thoughts, your experiences, and the notebook stays on the kitchen table and you get to read it. It's about a different way of sharing with each other. And I was thinking about that, and I have this fantasy in mind, and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, for me, that's what I...

want our sex to be like is like not the physical acts of or like the final goal is like to have penetrative sex like i want it to be an experience like for me to be able to fantasize about it and then feel like carry that energy through but you have never told any of that to him he knows very little about your erotic self and probably vice versa

You know, it's one thing to talk about what we do in sex. It's another thing to talk about what we're thinking about while we're doing it. What was it like when you told him what you were thinking and fantasizing about? Just the actual sharing of that for you. What was that like? Really vulnerable. But it was like in the context of a heavier conversation. So it wasn't like, this is what I'm thinking about. And like stoking it for myself is more like I'm explaining. Mm-hmm.

Or like defending myself more than. And now? And when I asked the question, I didn't mean for it to be something where you had to go on the defensive. I honestly wanted to know, I mean, you know, are you ever turned on when we're together? You know what I mean? It's not, it wasn't like an argumentative stance that I was trying to take. Were you surprised with the answer?

Um, I mean, I don't know, to be honest. The mental aspect of me knows there's some level of attraction because we've had sex many times and we've been in a relationship for almost four years. But when it feels like you're constantly being held at arm's length, it can make you feel like, well, maybe, you know, we need to just face the fact that you're not attracted to me.

And maybe that's just something that neither of us wants to face. I think he needs to hear something from you so that he doesn't go off in that kind of thinking. That's definitely something that I've been thinking about. And I'm so like, I think about everything. But I'm saying right now, don't go off in your thinking. I mean, like, I definitely desire you. There's desire there. And it...

Mostly when you're doing your own thing and you're very serious or playing video games and you're in your own world. That really gets to me. I love you and I want you and I want this with us. I want that. I love you too, babe. I find you very attractive. I think you're a very handsome man. I like looking at you. I like looking at your face. I like looking at your body.

Do you tell him that often or not enough? Not enough, I don't think. It's very rare. You have homework. Did it land on you? It did. I mean, you know, it's like I know these things. But I love hearing it. But sometimes, yeah, you can forget. Yeah. Yeah.

And this is part of sexual communication. If you need to hear it, you say, tell it to me again. I love hearing it. Shower me with that. If he needs reassurance or if he needs affirmation, you tell him again. People at 80 still want to hear that. I mean, this is not something you said on the first week and then you're done. This is juice, nectar, and especially healing.

If there is the challenge that you have currently, you need it even more. Part of why people begin to have sexual challenges, one of the many reasons, is that all of this stuff disappears and they just think that they can roll over and start fucking. So all of those exchanges, all of those poetic liberties make a huge difference. It feels good to say it. It feels good to hear it.

Yeah, I can definitely do that more. Does he do it to you? Yeah, all the time. And are you able to receive it without pressure, as pleasure? Sometimes. I don't always receive it like just a statement and more of like pressure. I just feel like

To a degree, everything I do, it's like we were talking about it and I don't know, part of me has thought that like the best thing for me to do is nothing, but then that doesn't accomplish anything. Nothing never accomplishes anything. So I don't, it's not you. That puts me in a box. It does. It does. And that's why this is less about sex and more about sexual trauma.

and healing so that sex can reemerge freely and joyfully. It's not you. And you need to tell him that. No, but not once. Not once. You know, he loves you. He wants you. It's everything you would hope for. And this is not about doing wrong things or everything I do goes off track. And when he says something beautiful and it pressures you,

Just tell him, tell me again. And then try to breathe through it and to make the space so it can actually enter and you can hold it. Or take his hands, put them on your heart and just tell him to say it again. And it's all he needs to do. I want to hear it again. It didn't really register well. And give yourself the gift. Yeah. I guess I've just been so like, I don't know how to receive anything.

My comfort zone is like me initiating it. And that's where I can let go and allow myself to feel good because I feel good and I feel powerful. And receiving is hard. Which is why I want you to think small. Yeah.

Even if it's just his hand in your hair. What would be, if he was sitting next to you now and you took his hand, where would you put it? Either in my head too or on my thigh. Okay. Start with that. And then if you want to move it, move it. And then tell him how it feels like. So he knows. This doesn't mean you're going to do this for seven years, you know? Yeah. Just also trying to reassure you.

But take his hand and place it somewhere where you want him to give and you can receive. Is this a good place to stop? It's just an arbitrary spot, but maybe too. Got to wrap up somewhere, huh? Yeah. But does it give you a place to start? I would say yes. I think so. So have a little notebook.

our erotic meanderings, our erotic life or something. Name it. Give it the name you want. It doesn't have to be a serious name. And writing it to each other. Sometimes it's easier to write than to speak. Then you can discuss it later if you want. But just to have a place where you, I thought of, I saw this, I imagined that. I would love that. On and on like this. Yeah. I would like that. And you? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I'm open to it. I'll be in touch. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.