Esther Calling - Part of Me Wants to Cheat Part One
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In this following session, we discuss sexual assault and I want you to know this before you listen. I like to talk about intrusive thoughts in a relationship. So I've been in a relationship for over two years now and this person is amazing. He's super romantic, funny, really smart.

and I truly like love this person. However, I am constantly dealing with this internal voice in my head that tells me like I should cheat on him and it's really really getting hard to in a way ignore the voice or to shut it up I guess. I've never acted on this. It's just an intrusive thought that pops up every month or so I'd say.

And I guess my question is, will this internal voice ever shut up or do I have to live with it throughout the life of this relationship? Vitamin Water was born in New York City because New Yorkers needed a drink that can do it all. Because we can do it all. Like walk 30 blocks in under an hour, follow four of the city's sports teams at once, and spend all day in the Chinatown Arcade. Drink Vitamin Water. It's from New York.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash box. ♪

Hi, hi. How are you? Good, good. And yourself? I'm good. What led you to send in your question? I've been like trying to talk about this with someone for a couple years now. And... Someone as a therapist? Yeah, so a therapist and then also like friends and family. So I listened to your question. Okay. And...

Have you had other boyfriends before? Yes. Yeah. And what happened to the battery pack? So I've had two like serious relationships, but they were in my early 20s.

And then I had like a five-year gap of where I went through a sexual assault. And so I took a few years to really focus on myself. I wasn't dating, none of that. And then it wasn't until a few years ago where I started dating again. And this is, he's my third boyfriend. And this is the first time that you grappled with

thoughts in your head, fantasies, intrusive thoughts, as you've called them? Or is it something that you are more familiar with? It's definitely the first time I would say where it's been so constant. I feel like in my previous relationships, I've also had like, I was just dating people where it was nothing serious, like such relationships and all that.

And yeah, these thoughts would come up here and there, but they would go away. But in this relationship where I feel like it's very stable, very serious, it's a constant thought that comes up in my head. How would you call the voice if you gave it a name? If I gave it a name? Because you're also saying that it's been there from the beginning. So it's not...

How would you call it? Just, I would say like evil me. Evil me. So if it's that strong, give me a snapshot of what it says to you. How does it speak to you? What does it say? Does it whisper? Does it scream? Does it bang? Does it? Yeah, it's sort of like,

It talks to me in a way where it's like, well, obviously you need to cheat on him. Like in a way where it's like, it's just wanting to convince me to do it. Why so obviously? It's just for me, it's like, he'll never find out. So just, just do it. Like he, you know. Do what? What exactly do you want her to do? Like hook up with other people or go on dates with other people.

Because she's bored, because the sex is lousy, because she needs to prove something, because there's a reaction that has to do with the assault that she experienced. What's your shtick? What's your purpose? Yeah. Since you've been there banging at her, since you've been there talking to her since the beginning, you're trying to make a point, evil. Mm-hmm.

Evil voice. So what's the point you're trying to make? What are you telling her? That's what I'm trying to understand. I don't know. And it's not that I'm unhappy in this relationship. It's not that the sex is lousy. I don't know why it's constantly in my head. What do you say? I'm actually...

Just trying to get a sense of your voice and how you speak. Are you kind? Are you mischievous? Are you trying to get her in trouble? Are you trying to tell her she can't sustain a relationship? Are you trying to have her hurt a man after another seemed to have hurt her? I think this voice is mischievous. It's sort of like,

It's something that I can easily get away with, so why not do it? Yeah. For what? I don't think I'm trying to hurt him. No, you may not be trying to hurt him, but evil voice may. Yeah. I've never thought of it that way. I know. I see it on your face. Because the voice doesn't tell you, go and hurt him. Get your revenge, you know.

You show him whoever the hymn is and he becomes a stand-in for the hymns. Because it tries to do it in this playful way, like, because you can get away with it, why wouldn't you? Why would you? I mean, what are you meant to find? That it's fun? That you're capable? That you can get away with things? I mean, what's the purpose? And I don't ask you for an answer. I think we can spend some time with...

Evil Voice Together. That's the name, right? Evil Voice. Yeah. Is it still the name? At any point you can change the name. Yeah. But it's you and me meeting that part of you and getting a sense as to what it is, why it's there, what it wants for you or from you, and why it's messing with you. Because it's not even that you say, I have fun fantasies.

I fantasize other guys. Okay, many do. I imagine what life would be with somebody else or sex would be with somebody else or who I would be with somebody else. But they're interesting thoughts that I entertain. They don't gnaw at me. This voice isn't just a fun voice of fantasies. This voice is gnawing at you and kind of relentlessly wanting you to go and do something

and convincing you that you should want to. Yeah. So when you say to me, I never thought of it this way, what do you say? What do you mean? I never thought of what? Well, the real me, like the non-evil voice me. I try to live life genuinely, as honest as possible, as happy as possible.

And so I never would have thought that a piece of me would want to hurt this person that I love so much. And like you said, it might not be like specifically him. It's just like he's in that place. So he happens to be the lucky one. But I don't know. Like, I feel like logically, I would have been able to separate the two, you know? But you haven't. So...

If you allow yourself for a moment to really understand what evil voice is after, why is it so angry? What is it angry about? And what is it looking for to restore something inside of you? What would you say? I don't know if it's angry. I think...

Take your time. Take your time. Stay with it. Yeah. Because it's so weird, right? How can I be so angry? And how can a part of me want such revenge when I'm in the best relationship I've ever had? How is it that it's coming up right now? It makes no sense. And yet it has a logic of its own. I think it would tell me that men are objects in a way where...

I can just hook up with this person and this other person doesn't need to know. And it's like not emotion driven or it might be, like you said, it could be angry at my past and I'm trying to get revenge in a way or to get even. Cause it's not like I'm emotionally attached to anyone in terms of like, Oh, I should hook up with this person. It's not, I don't have any feelings.

connection with them emotionally, like none of that. It's just... If they're objects, then you don't. Yeah, exactly. If they're replaceable objects with whom you have a transactional relationship, just to know that you can, maybe because that's how you felt. Yeah, yeah. An object that you just take and toss. Yeah. I feel like I...

From my time off of dating and just trying to focus on myself and realizing what I truly want in life, I feel like I grew from it. I didn't realize that it's still in here, you know? Sorry. No, sorry. You're being very courageous because this evil voice has tricked you.

I mean, it's so vague that all you know is that it's relentless and you don't know why it doesn't stop. And suddenly, you find a reason for why it's there. It's not just there because you can't be faithful or because you have fantasies of other men. It's there because it's holding on to a piece of you that may have been somewhat resolved when there was no partner.

But the very presence of this loving partner has reawakened the difference between feeling a woman, loved, desired, cherished, and how much of an object you felt. And I know nothing about the assault, but an assault is an assault. I mean, I'm not asking you to tell anything about it, but that feeling of being tossed, used...

Yeah, it's definitely coming out in this way. Yeah, I definitely see it now. I've never felt like I needed to get revenge. I've never felt like I needed to get even.

So it's really interesting how it's coming out like this right now. So late in my 20s, you know? In a part of you. That's evil voice. Yeah. But that's not all of you. You have another part of you that is so happy to be with him and to create something and build something together. So it's not this versus that. They live together. Different parts of you have different things that they're working out. Yeah. Yeah.

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And then what? I want to hear because you call it a voice. So it speaks to you. Yeah. Yeah. Can you imitate for me how it speaks to you? Does it have an accent? Does it have a particular timbre? How does it talk?

Yeah. So, so I'll set the scene for you. Okay. Let's say I, I'm at the gym and it's happened. This is like a great example. I'm at the gym and like one time I locked eyes with someone and my partner was away, like states away. I was visiting family and the voice was like,

just go for it. Like, you know, you want to just do it. He's not going to find out. No one's going to know. Like, just just go after him. Just cheat on him. And it sort of tells me in a way where it's like, it's so obvious or in a way where it's just like, like common sense, almost like, duh, might as well the doors open, just just go down that door, you know?

And that's what confuses me because it doesn't come from like a malicious, it doesn't have a malicious voice or anything. It's talking to me like it's factual, you know? Do you remember the first time you met it or heard it? Yeah. Yeah, I do. It was in the beginning of the relationship.

It was before we made anything like official. So I was still dating other people. He was seeing other people. But I really started to like him. And then I remember like the voice just said like,

You know what? Just hook up with someone else. Like, what's... Like, I know you like this person, but just hook up with this other person. So that... That I was saying or... Yeah. And then finish the sentence. So that... Oh, so that... Hook up with this other person so that or and then... I guess so that I don't get so attached with him. Continue. I think it's like... Because if I get attached...

Yeah, if I get attached, I'll get hurt like how I was hurt years ago. If I get attached, I make myself vulnerable to him, which I haven't done in a while. How much, if any, have you spoken with him about any of this or even about your experience? None of it. Does he know anything about the assault itself? No.

Yes, he does. He does. Yeah. But just the facts or what your experience has been? I think the facts. I don't think I have ever talked to him about how difficult it was for me moving on. And he's never asked? No. And would you want him to ask you? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's because...

Before this call, I believed I moved on from this. So him asking me, I feel like... But you may have. No, no. Yeah, I may have moved on from this. I want your definition of what do you call moved on? You know, that's such an American expression. What do you imagine moving on looks like, feels like? For me, moving on feels like I'm no longer crying myself to sleep. I can trust men again. Yeah.

I'm comfortable in my own skin. I'm happy. That's a major one. Like really happy. And I realized like what I truly want in men. It was back then I used to go for physically attractive. And now for me, it's deeper, you know, like someone that I can feel comfortable

this sort of like mental and emotional connection with someone that respects me. And yeah, I feel like I moved on from, I guess I moved on from the old me, from the person that used to choose men that would take advantage of vulnerable girls. And like those two are different moving on from

the situation versus moving on from the old me. Right, right. Yeah. And just out of curiosity, not because I think you should, how come you've never talked about any of that with him? If you can trust him, if you know how much he values and respects you. I'm not talking about evil voice. I'm talking about

How one recovers from trauma like that, how one learns to feel beautiful again, desirable, loving, happy, not crying, not ashamed, trusting, all of those pieces that are part of overcoming a traumatic event like this. I never told him because I never thought it was necessary to bring it up. So you let evil voice do the talking.

Yeah, I guess so. The logic for me, it's like, I just told him the facts, what happened, how long ago, what I did. Not what I did, but like, how long it took me to move on from that, quote unquote, move on from that. But yeah, I just didn't think it was necessary to go into that dark hole and tell him.

Actually, it's the story not of a dark hole. It's the story of how you discover light again and hope and love. But I'm going to throw the question, you know, just because it comes up to me. Can you imagine that at the same time as you thought it's not necessary, that it's not important, which I find that there may be a part of you

That actually wonders how come he never asked? Unless you made it so that he shouldn't. You know, you may put out an aura that just says, don't touch. But there may be a part of you that may also have wanted him to say, what was, you know, not what was it like to be assaulted? What has it been like for you?

To allow yourself to be with me to trust again to be touched to be hugged to that aspect um, I've never questioned it and I've never really wanted him to ask so it's never really been like an issue and I think I've always talked about - He's just he never really asked for details. He takes things and

As they are. And it does like, he helps you not go back to the dark corner because he doesn't ask. He takes things as they come. You present it as you do. And therefore he doesn't push. And you find that very alleviating. Yeah. In a way I was. Yeah. Cause when I finally told him, I think it was like four months into our relationship and, um,

I felt relieved pretty much. Like, okay, it's over. I can breathe now. He knows my history. And then like, now we can move on with this beautiful relationship. Right. He knows an event in your history and he knows very little about the woman who processed this event in order to arrive to another stage of her life. To know an event of someone's history is not the same as to know the person. Yeah. You get that.

And in a way, I mean, so interesting, my mind is going in so many directions as I'm feeling you through the screen, so to speak, you know. And it's as if I'm thinking evil voice. So when I say my mind goes in many directions, it's like...

I just put things together. I have no idea if what I say fits you. So you tell me hot or cold, you know. But there's a part of me that imagines evil voices trying to say, go, you can get away with it. Because he knows nothing. He doesn't look at the details. He doesn't ask. He doesn't ask. Exactly. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. In a way.

Yeah, I think that's why Evo Boyce thinks it's easy to get away with it. That's why he'll never know if I did it. But I'm not sure that that's what you really want, is that he never knows. See, there's a hostility in there, right? It's not just go do it. He will never know. There's hostility in that sentence of some sort. There's a kind of, you know, I can do this because...

In any case, you don't ask. So that's how my evil voice translates yours. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And when I say this, I experience a certain hostility. I'm mad when I say this. I'm not soft and sweet. Yeah. Like, why doesn't he ask in a way? How does that land on you? Because this is my twisted mind. Yeah.

Yeah. May not be, you need to tell me. Yeah. When you say that, like I think back in like with my relationship with him and I'm always the one asking questions about his family, about his past, about his cousins, you know, his friends. And he never really asks me questions about that. I just willingly share, um,

And I never thought that it bothered me. I always thought like, okay, cool. Like I just share things with him and he doesn't question them. Nice, you know? And I'm not suggesting it does, but I have a feeling that evil voice minds. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

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accepts me for what I've done and for what I've gone through. And it's okay with... That's true too. That's there too. Yeah. That's there too. But he accepts me without knowing me. Yeah. He accepts me. But there's a little part inside of me that would like him to know who he's accepting.

that would like him, when I bring something up, to ask a question about it. Not to pry, not to be invasive, just to not leave me all alone with how much I say. And that you may be able to say to him. I notice...

that very often I ask questions and probably you don't because you want to respect that I say what I want and how much I want. But in fact, I would love it if on occasion you asked me something too because I feel deeply accepted. But sometimes I think that you don't necessarily know who you are accepting. Yeah. And I would be very curious to know if depending on how this conversation unfolds,

What happens to evil voice? Yeah, definitely. Evil voice, I'm not even sure it's the right name anymore. What would you name it? I am not the author of your voices. I don't title them. You will come up with a different one because it has a purpose. The voice is trying to tell you something. It's trying to make you look at something that you have not wanted to see.

There is a piece of revenge. There is anger that stays. Understandably so. It doesn't mean that you haven't moved on. To the contrary, these things coexist. It's not that one eradicates the other. And it is trying to also say this thing about he doesn't ask, you can do what you want. He will never notice. May not necessarily be what you like so much. Yeah. Yeah.

And so it keeps coming back all the time because it's waiting for you to take action, but not to take action by cheating on him necessarily. If you told me that, you know, there's a different way of you talking to me about the way you look at other people, what you're drawn to, what you miss, the kind of experiences as a woman you'd like to have, then I would say, yes, this is about you.

you know, transgression and attractions and desires for others. But I'm not hearing any of that. I mean, the word cheating may be used, but I don't hear any, you know, adulterous thoughts here, so to speak. No, no. Yeah, I've never acted on it. And now that you mentioned, like, it's always been there. It's like it wants to come out and sort of like show that like,

No, it bothers me that he doesn't ask questions. It reminds me of... I called it intrusive thoughts because I let my intrusive thoughts win sometimes with him in a way where it's not harmful.

Let's say we're at the grocery store and I put a bread in the basket and then I get a heavy, I don't know, can of corn or something. I'll throw it on top of the bread.

And in those instances, I let my intrusive thoughts win just to get a reaction from him, like a little giggle on the inside. And it's sort of like the voice is sort of like a branch of that where it's like, except it's a little more extreme. But I guess I act that way also. Like I do those small things that really bother him but make me laugh because it's sort of the same thing where it's like,

He doesn't ask, why do you do this? He's just like, stop doing this, in a way. But it's never like, why are you doing this? What makes you want to do this? You know, it bothers me. No, he doesn't say that. Tell me how that sounds to you. I love feeling accepted. I would love it even more if I felt more of your curiosity. I love that. Yeah, I've never asked him.

about his curiosity, why it's not there, why he doesn't question things. He's always accepted the hand he's given. And that's a neutral statement. That's not critical. That's just very simply, I am very curious and I wish there was more curiosity from you. I welcome it.

In case you wondered if I would react negatively, just so you know, I welcome it. I experience it as interest, as care, as depth, as something to bounce off of. And otherwise, I end up having conversations with evil voice because there's a whole chunk of conversations that we don't have.

And if you've been together two and a half years, then hopefully the relationship is strong enough and it's an invitation. It's not a criticism. Yeah, definitely. I think he would take that so well. Like he wouldn't take it as criticism at all. Does he know you're here? No. I've never thought of telling him about this because...

If I haven't acted on it, like if I haven't cheated on him, then why worry him? You know, like... Oh, but that's not why you're here. I know. I know. But I just felt like I've never mentioned any of this to him because it's sort of like my internal battle. Yeah. But I didn't realize that it's like originating from his lack of curiosity. At least what you experience as such. Yeah.

You can tell him, I want to take on a little trip inside of me with you that also takes place inside of you. And it's a trip we've never taken. It's a conversation we've never had. And then one day you'll play it to him. And you'll say something to the effect of, this is where I had the idea of having this little conversation alias trip with you. One day...

In the middle of the week, I got on the phone with this woman and we started talking and one thing led to another. And I realized, I don't know if this is the whole thing, but this is a place to start. Yeah. I guess my concern with starting this conversation with him is that rather than being curious about the conversation and curious about how he can be more curious, I

I feel like he's going to just accept. Be defensive. Yeah, either be defensive or just accept that these are my thoughts about him. And if I bring up the evil voice and if I tell him that. Not necessary. No? Okay. Not necessary. Okay. No. And certainly not in the beginning. But you could imagine that you say to him,

Are you open? If he says, if he accepts, and then you say, do you have any idea how to be more curious with me? Or do you feel like you understand what I'm saying, but you have no idea where to begin? If it goes in that direction, then I could imagine you putting all over the house little pieces of paper with questions on them. So when he opens the cabinet for the coffee mug, he has a question.

And when he goes to the bathroom, on the mirror is a question. And when he goes to the laundry, there's a question. And it becomes a playful way of basically telling, you know, you put 25 questions that you would love for him one day to ask or questions you have for him. But examples, expressions of curiosity. No, the evil voice, you don't have to. It's your voice. That's yours. You're still trying to figure it out.

We basically began to think of it differently from how you've thought of it for the last two years and try to see, you know, if it's so relentless, constant, what's it really wanting from you?

And where does it connect to? And what is it about? And that is not a conversation with him. But one thing we know is that it is saying to you, I want him more curious. I want him to ask. I don't want to just feel like I can live with somebody who will never notice. Yeah. Yeah. I want him to notice. Mm-hmm.

There is power in the noticing. There is care. There is attention. There is love. There is energy. I want more of his noticing. Definitely. I call it curiosity because it's a nice word to attach to it. And that's what you need when you go to talk to him. Yeah, I like that. Okay. Is this a good place to stop?

Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for you, for trusting me and bringing your question to me. As the session ends, I am left perplexed. She talks about fantasizing affairs, but affairs are erotic plots. And I don't hear any of that in what she's trying to figure out for herself. I hear a completely different message.

train of thought that has way more to do with the consequences of assault than it has to do with erotic fantasies of other lovers. And so I need to see her again. I feel the need to complete this conversation, to see where it goes. So I invited her for a second session and she accepted. And that second part will be released in a few days at the end of this week.

This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.