Finding Love Would Mean Letting Go of Who I Am
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Many times I say, you should have a conversation about that. Have you spoken to this person about this? And what stands out is how difficult some conversations are.

There is such charge around them. There's a sense that they will derail, that they will unleash anger, that they will be filled with misunderstandings, with assumptions. And as we are going into the holiday season and we're going to be with a lot of close family members and friends and loved ones and people with whom we have agreements and disagreements about a lot of issues.

This question about how we have difficult conversations, I want to explore it with you. I want to have a series of sessions, each one looking at a difficult conversation. And so I hope that on the podcast, we can have some of these conversations that we can't have at a dinner table or that we've been wanting or imagining or fantasizing. So some of these conversations can almost serve to you as role play.

Let's try it out in this imaginary sphere, in this virtual space called the Where Should We Begin podcast and see where they take us and then see if they can be transferred in real life. In this following session, we discuss sexual assault and I want you to know this before you listen. Hello, Esther. Hello.

I'd love to have a conversation with you about the intersectionality of culture, faith, community, sexuality, fantasy, and romanticization. My very existence feels as though I'm sitting on a fault line and it feels like staying atop it means that there is the threat of it crumbling at any given moment. I'm a gay Muslim man.

with a deep-rooted connection to my culture, traditions, and Arab legacy. I value my religion, I practice my faith regularly, I feel spiritually connected to God, and I align my life to the values embedded in my faith.

The gay element within religion is a tale as old as time, but my main point of contention isn't necessarily in accepting myself within the faith, but rather in finding a suitable partner for myself when I not only want a man of God, but I also want a court within the confines of a more modest and traditional approach. One that emphasizes chastity until marriage.

The polar opposites of extreme secularism in the US, in the US gay community specifically, and extreme homophobia within the Muslim American community, it's been exhausting to exist in.

It feels like I'm caught in a hurricane on an uncharted island with no one but myself to weather that storm. I wonder sometimes what the point is to keep weathering if there's no visible population to even fight for. And romance seems like the only source of depression for me in my life.

And it's sent me to dark places. And having ideas of my fantasy partner is really what keeps me going and praying for that final piece of the puzzle. I want to get out of my head and into reality where perhaps my partner does exist. And I'd love to have that conversation with you.

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Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime. Whether it's last-minute ingredients and stocking stuffers or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast, free delivery on holiday essentials with Prime. And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.

Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into. So here we are to have this conversation. Here we are. Anything you want to add, change? No, I think those are pretty much the main pinpoints for me that I want to really understand and address. So put one forward as a starting point for today.

Let's start with finding a romantic partner that has similar beliefs to me or that aligns. And that aligns in wanting chastity till marriage, has a profound belief in God, is Muslim. Preferably, yes. And is open about it.

Yes, absolutely. Are you out? Yes, I am out. I want somebody who's also out. To their family as well. Right. I am out to my friends and family. Not too many people in my religious community and not to the elders, but my family knows, my friends know, and, you know, co-workers, you know, anyone who knows me knows. Your imam? But any...

Well, my imam is actually my dad. So he's one of the imams in our local Muslim community. So it was a little challenging when I was trying to navigate that growing up. So yeah, we're the imam's children. Okay. Well, he's your dad, he's your imam, and he's your guide and teacher. Mm-hmm.

What has he said? Because far from me to compete with the imam. You know, his response has been interesting. I would say overall it's negative. So his main belief is that being gay is not a sin, but having a gay life would be, meaning finding a partner in any way would be the sinful part.

He made it clear that he didn't want anything to do with me if I ever came out publicly. It was the same with my mom. I wouldn't say they were violent about it. They did try to approach it with some compassion. And they were like, hey, you know, we want the best for you. And the best would be to never say anything.

So I would say overall negative, but I'm still really glad that I told them and they know. So your question or your bind, as I just heard it, is not about how do I meet another man of faith, Muslim, chaste, etc., but that if I was to meet that man, I would lose my father. That's a different bind. Yeah.

Right. Right what? It's not as, I guess, simple as I thought. No. I never felt like it was that specifically. But I'm seeing kind of how they connect now. You're feeling it? Yeah, when you said, when you finished your sentence, I felt a heaviness in my stomach. I saw that, even through the screen. Yeah, and I...

even had a wicked thought that in a crazy way, you're blessed not to find your romantic partner upon whom you've put impossible demands. He needs to be out, but he needs to be chased and he needs to be of deep faith and, and, and, and. And it's set up in such a way that you want, it's most impossible to meet him

But it's a blessing that you don't meet him because as long as you don't meet him, you don't lose your dad and maybe your mom. This is maybe less a romantic struggle than a loyalty bind. And you don't want to lose your dad who loves you deeply and whom you love deeply. But he can't for the life of himself begin to imagine that he has a gay son and living a gay life.

So you are doing exactly what he said. I don't mind you being gay, but you can't live a gay lifestyle. That's what you're doing. Right. On the one hand, you're holding on to him. And on the other hand, you're feeling what on the inside? I'm feeling very lonely. I don't feel like I have any anchor. I don't feel like I truly belong anywhere. I'm just in isolation. That's really what it feels like.

To be able to exist in all of these worlds is on my own with no one around me. It feels, it's really sad. It's turbulent, but it's also sad. And it's lifeless. Oh, absolutely. That's a great word for it. It does feel lifeless. And have you had that conversation ever with him? What does he suggest? No, I haven't.

You know, we only had that one conversation when I initially told him. And that was when I was in college. That was, I want to say, seven or so years ago. So that's seven years of lifelessness. Wow. Who is your person in the family or in the community with whom you can talk about this? Anyone? In my family, no. Do you know any others? No.

I have here and there. I do have one friend in another state. Gay Muslim? Yes, she is. And I do confide in her a lot. And I try to visit her often. But I don't have anyone that's close by in proximity or that I can rely on consistently. Yeah, I don't really. I kind of save everything. I bundle it up until I get to talk to her at some point. Okay.

It's so isolating. My heart goes out to you. I mean, interestingly, I'm thinking about a film. It's called Trembling Before God. But interestingly, it's about Orthodox Jewish queer people. Different religion, but not that far. Same God. Same God. Sometimes same people too. And it's an incredible documentary. It's not recent.

In a strange way, you will have an experience of community by listening to these multiple people of faith who are all struggling with the silence, the secret, the exclusion, the double life, the shame, the family, mornings, etc., etc. And they all tremble before God. They all know who they are and they all know who they're supposed to be.

And it's excruciating. But your dilemma is not about finding somebody. Because in an interesting way, your life is set up in a way where you're not meant to find that somebody. Because the price you would have to pay is unbearable. And I stand humble before you. It's okay. You know, when you said that, the irony about...

My favorite movie growing up was The Little Mermaid, and that's exactly what I thought of now. Tell me more. I mean, the price that Ariel had to pay for a life that she wanted was she completely gave up her whole species. I can't fathom doing that in my own life either. We have to take a brief break, so...

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We fuss over every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you. And the conversations that I have with couples start off as three-hour sessions. And then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour and then go back and listen to them at the notes again.

and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say in the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life.

Where Should We Begin involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw, intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time-consuming effort to create Where Should We Begin.

and which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you, how they accompany you in critical moments of your life, how you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours, and how it has helped you

And that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now we need to ask you for more and for your help. And you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my office hour subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to Where Should We Begin gives you an ad-free version of these sessions and

and all the Esther callings, and more importantly, a way to continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness to work conflicts to infidelity to secrets to betrayals, all sorts of relational betrayals, to ending relationships.

And we offer follow-ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow-up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do.

So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the Where Should We Begin show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's office hours. Have you had any relationships? I have. I have.

Men, women, them? Men. I've never been with a woman. I have had relationships with men. They tend to be much shorter. I would say the longest, probably four or five months. You know, I think a lot of why things end is our lifestyles don't align. Meaning you don't want to have sex. Right. That's the main issue that usually either somebody...

is on board at the beginning and then changes their mind or he thinks he can and then he can't. It's disappointing. I think because from the straight girlfriends that I have and that are Muslim, their experience is...

It's almost like they get rewarded socially and they find somebody who respects it or is also on the same path. And so maybe they wait for a while and then they meet a great guy and then it works out. Whereas on my end, that seems to be a speed bump where I don't even know if that wasn't an issue. I don't know how the relationship could have progressed, which is really disappointing.

But you have created a hierarchy. It is worse to have sex with men than to be with men. And as long as I'm not sexual with them, it's not as what? As forbidden? I mean, explain to me how you've organized it inside of you. Because you have to shuffle many parts. Oh, yes. We've been shuffling for years.

So how I'm seeing it is I do value the marriage part. I do want sex to be a spiritual experience that I'm only having with my husband. And I do want to be married. So for me, that's how I was raised. That's how I grew up. The expectation was I would do that for my future wife.

So just because I happen to be attracted to men, I don't see, I would be disappointed in myself if I strayed from that. You know, that spiritual contract I made with God, I promised God that I would do this. So just because I came out, why does that mean that I have to change that value? Mm-hmm.

Who else do you trust to have such a conversation with within your community? I mean, you're not the first. You may be the first to your dad. I'm sure. But your dad may have spoken with members of his community that had the same dilemma. Right. Does he advise them? Oh, absolutely. And then what happens? What is his advice to them?

Hold your kid with the feet to the fire? If they do stray from the path, you have to mourn them? You have to cut off from them? Or what? What do you know about how he has helped other members of his community? He's a wise man.

He is. The thing is, that would be an inappropriate topic to talk about at home. I know how he handled it with me. But you had one conversation seven years ago. I had one conversation seven years ago, but I've had several others with my mom who I'm sure she's kind of triangulated us, me, him, and her, because I am the oldest. So...

On top of it. I am, yes. I am the oldest of four. I should have asked you. That's one more responsibility. Yes, I hear you. Yes. And, you know, it is a little bit more complicated because I think, you know, had circumstances been different for me and they didn't have sympathy, my story would be really different. Meaning? Meaning?

When I first came out to my mother and to my sister, she spent months and months trying to find counselors in our state to help me become straight. When that didn't work, after months and months, she talked to my dad and they started to look at programs overseas. And so the plan was to send me to... Conversion programs. Conversion programs overseas. Okay.

And you went each time? I went to the counseling sessions in the States, yes. I was still an undergrad when all of this was happening and I was still living at home actually.

But I could not handle going. I was going and kind of, I knew at that point nothing could be changed and I was starting to accept myself. But I wanted to go along with what she was suggesting just to kind of show her like, hey, you know, actually, you know, even if you try, this is not going to work. Can I ask you something? I didn't want her to feel some resistance. Can I ask you something? Yes. Do you accept? I do. Okay.

I do believe that I have a place in Islam. I do. Good. Okay. Which is, I think, part of why I do really value it. I hold it dear. Go back to your mom and dad a second. You were telling me something. Oh, yes. I didn't want them to see that I was resisting them. One after the other, when she would find these counselors, when they didn't tell her what she wanted, she would fire them. She would sit in the session with me. And then that's when they decided we're going to

ship you off and you'll go to this conversion program in Saudi Arabia or to Syria even though there was a civil war happening in Syria at the time and that's when I completely I couldn't handle that and when they saw that I couldn't handle that that's when they took a big pause and we stopped talking about it entirely what would happen if they heard this podcast

Because you're talking to me, but you're talking to them. I am. I would honestly think they would be a little bit surprised. They would probably feel betrayed. I think they would want to distance themselves if they actually heard this. And you knew that before you spoke to me? Absolutely. Is there a statement in this? I guess part of me believes that they're still stuck.

Even after all of these years, they're still in that same spot where they think something might change. Meaning it's a matter of choice. Right. And you're trying to tell them, this is not a choice, this is who I am, how I'm born, but it is also God's will. Exactly. And I was put here, and maybe God's will is for you to actually be challenged with something that feels impossible to you. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yes. Because otherwise, I will be caught in a struggle between if I hold on to me, I lose you. And if I hold on to you, I lose me. Yeah. I either have my family, but I feel lifeless inside, or I allow myself to connect and to experience closeness and intimacy with a man, and I lose myself.

my roots, my family, and I carry the burden and the responsibility of having shamed you and dishonored you publicly. They would lose their validity in the religious community if they supported me publicly. A lot of it is social. It's a Faustian bargain. And when one is caught in such a bind, sometimes...

In an ironic way, the best thing is to be stuck. As young as you're stuck, you don't pay any price. It's kind of lopsided, but the goal is not to become unstuck because to become unstuck is to instantly be thrown in an impossible loss. It would feel like an impossible loss, absolutely. Yeah.

But at the same time, you asked me, making a statement. But this is just, this is my life. And I've tried the pretending. It's not healthy, my life. Right, but you come from a tradition that does not really care too much about what is healthy in the Western sense of the word.

Yeah, that's very accurate. Okay? So you're mixing and matching a bunch of different value systems here. And he said it very clearly. I understand what you are, but that doesn't mean that that's how you need to live. So how you need to live precedes what you are. You come from a tradition where preserving the relationships, the honor, the respectability, come ahead of your personal authenticity or being true to yourself.

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

I will lose all my relationships connected to my family. Maybe not all your siblings, but certainly... But more importantly, I will make it impossible for my father to continue to be the teacher and the honorable member of his community that he is. Because he will have to bear the shame that he wasn't able to stop me. There is a way for you to think about not being so close to...

If you want to do this while living in their neighborhood, it's going to be very difficult. If you decide, my duty, my role as the firstborn son, my role as the son of the imam, etc., etc., is what I will let myself be defined by, then you will make a choice that is about duty and obligation, and that's an honorable choice. And it comes with its consequences.

If you want to play the more secular American narrative, then you will say accepting that is accepting that I'm an aberration and that is impossible for me. So it's an I and thou battle. Am I vowing loyalty to the relationships and to where I'm from or am I vowing loyalty to myself? You live in a society that values identity and values

personal authenticity way more than your community and many other communities but as a gay man you are really on the fault line you couldn't have chosen a better word as a gay man who is devout and muslim and a man of faith and a loyal son and in every other ways you probably have been a wonderful son you're smiling or crying which is it i'm smiling okay tell me more

It was nice to hear that from you, that you said you were probably a good son. Because I do feel like I've made a lot of sacrifices for my family that are completely unseen, but, you know, silently expected. I didn't just say this to say something nice. I know it. I mean, I know it from...

listening to you and watching you and seeing the excruciating inner turmoil which you are discussing with a Jewish woman. How transgressive can we be? That's part of the appeal. Might as well do it all.

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

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We'll be right back.

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But do you think they know, I'm a witness, but you're going to meet me once in your life and you carry this with you. But among your siblings, your mom, do you have grandparents, uncles? I do have grandparents, big family. There's a big smala. Yes. So in the smala, does anyone, smala is extended family.

For those of us who... People see you as a very devoted son. Right. They do. And they wonder why you don't have family yet. Yes. Why I'm not married. Right. All of this. And they introduce you to one woman after another. At every wedding. Every function. Do you ever think, I mean, in the many, many plots that you have...

entertained in your head do you ever imagine being married with a woman and letting her know that you want to have a family with her but that you also are a gay man I have thought of that in the past and I think that that can be done much easier than I even think and people would be willing as long as everyone is honest in the process but I'm

Esther, I'm too much of a romantic. I do want the romantic love. To me, it would feel like I was... Lying all over the place. Yes, absolutely. Is it that? It's the lying or it's the compromising? It's compromising, but I would feel like I was soiling the love if I had to have 800 schemes for me to even be in the same room as him.

That part would make me feel like it was wrong, even if I believed that it wasn't. You don't give yourself many options. No, I know. And as I said that, I was realizing that. You want it pure and absolute in an environment that may not allow for that. By definition, any kind of resolution will be a compromise.

If you just go on saying, I'm too much of a romantic and an absolutist and a purist, I worry that you are going to dry up to such a point that at some point you'll explode. And then when you explode, you will pay a price that is way too big and not what you want either. So holding on to principles and to purism or purity or absolutism...

It may be very true, but it may not be wise. It's really difficult for me to accept that. I do follow logically. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But you're going back and forth between fear and rage. Yes. Part of you is afraid and part of you is enraged that that's what you should have to do and feels that it is a profound injustice. Yes. How does it...

speak in your head, that voice? It makes me, well, it's the voice, how it sounds, it's that I'm not religious enough. It tells me that this is my easy way out of not being religious. And after all, I'm not going to be able to upkeep those principles because I'm not religious enough. That's a really big, big issue for me. That feeling that I've

try to run away from is that I'm not religious enough, which my mom and dad have both said. And if I was, I would be able to suppress that whole part of me and follow the program. Right.

May I ask you a question of ignorance? Yes. Are you meant to become an imam yourself? I'm not, no. That was the plan, but I didn't want to. I didn't have interest in it. So my brother is being trained to do that. Okay. If I was religious enough, I would, if I was as upstanding as I would like to be or think I should be, I would what?

I would be able to uphold my religious values as a gay man the same way I would have if I was straight. And given that I am not, then what? Given that I'm not, I have to try harder. Okay. So if I try harder, I don't have to ask a question about how I meet my partner. What is that? Can you elaborate on that? Yes. If I try harder, it means that...

My being a queer man is not meant to be a part of my life in active form. Maybe in yearning, longing, fantasy, imagination, but not in active form, in reality. So everything inside of me yearns to meet someone and every other part inside of me is making sure that that doesn't happen so that I can prove myself

My devoutness. Yeah, I do see that. Say it in your own words. I exist in an environment that makes it almost impossible to meet someone, but my imagination keeps that possibility alive. I have different departments inside of me. I have the imaginative department, but I also have the censorship bureau. My imagination keeps seeing me meet people because it's like a lifeline for me.

to know that there is hope and that love exists for me. But my censorship bureau makes sure that I don't ever really meet somebody so that I can maintain my devoutness and prove to myself and my family that I am worthy of being the firstborn Muslim son. I never thought of having a censorship department. I never actively saw that. That is such a poignant analogy. I mean...

We can call it a censorship bureau. We can call it homophobia. But we can also call it a part of you that also protects you from something that feels the worst thing that could happen. It's not just a restrictive bureau of censorship. It also has a protective element to it in its weird but very obvious way. It does serve a purpose. Yeah, a deep purpose. Yeah.

What's something that we have not touched that you would say, oh, I wish I had not forgotten that or not left that out? There is one thing as we were talking, especially about the not religious enough piece that was, I'm seeing how it's related now. And when you talked about, you know, that intensity at which I want to adhere to my values, the reason why I,

my parents had a more positive reaction than a traditional immigrant Muslim family is because part of their reasoning for why I am gay is because of sexual assault that happened as a child. And so they know that that happened to me and they attribute this to that trauma. There is some sympathy on their end because of that.

And when we were talking about me wanting to really kind of prove the religiosity and adhere strictly, that did come up for me in my head. And how we kind of talked about having a pure love, I do feel like part of it is probably related. Can you tell me, or you either tell me how or I tell you what I'm guessing? In...

Surviving that experience, I did feel like I was tainted somehow. Yes. I still sometimes feel that way. I don't feel like I was able to get justice from that. And I feel like if in my, now in adulthood, if I am able to have a marriage or meet somebody and have a more traditional and healthy

chase sexual life until I'm married, it would feel like it would undo the wrong in a way, even though it's unrelated. Tell me if I hear you well. Both you and your parents bring compassion to yourself through this experience. It gives it a framework. Do they know who it was and what it was? They do know who it was, yeah.

If I find the love I imagine, if I experience the intimacy and the cherishing that I imagine, I will know that this person didn't take the best of me, that I'm lovable, worthy, and that I didn't just survive, but I revived. Am I hearing you? Yeah. Go on. Hmm.

So maybe this is not about am I religious enough? I mean, that may be a question you have too. But this is, am I whole enough? Am I not broken? In a way, my parents find compassion for me, but in my brokenness. And it's better than nothing, but it kind of confirms my brokenness. Right. And so while that works for them or for my relationship with them,

When it comes to me, what I want to know is that I'm whole and I'm not broken and this is not the determining event of my life. And I'm saying this without knowing anything of what happened to you. Just tell me something. Was it once or multiple? It was once. And when I say I made a lot of sacrifices for them, I was instructed not to say anything because it would ruin our reputation.

And so no police reports were made, nothing. And then now, having grown up, I do kind of wish that we did. You know, I made that sacrifice for them. They know? I don't think so. I never told them that. That's what you mean by the sacrifices that are expected but are not really made explicit. Yes. You carry so much. You carry secrets. Yes.

You carry rape. You carry the unspoken. You carry shame. You carry love. You carry the loneliness of not being touched enough. You carry the burden of a firstborn son. You carry the burden or the responsibility of the son of the Imam, of the holy man. And how could you desecrate that? You carry your unfulfilled longings and unmet wishes. I have deep respect for you.

I appreciate that. And thank you for telling me. Thank you for listening. And also for telling me the last part, so that you didn't make a sacrifice. Finish the sentence. So that it wasn't my... I didn't make a sacrifice and it wasn't just my secret to hold. If we spoke longer, I would start to ask more questions. But I don't want to open up again. That I won't be able to close.

So I think you let me in a little bit and that's fine. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for the call. I really appreciate it. The conversation you just heard is a one-time session. It's a 45-minute conversation, maybe an hour long.

But so much happens afterwards and so I am always eager to hear the follow-up, the update, and to do a pulse check. What landed? What did people keep? What was useful? Where did it take them? What changed?

It's a one session, so one has to be humble about what can be achieved. But sometimes one session actually opens up a lot of new avenues and new stories. So I did receive a very beautiful update from him. And if you want to know about this follow-up or any other sessions follow-up, you can hear it all on my office hours on my Apple subscriptions.

This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

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Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to get more out of whatever you're into. Support for this show comes from Ocean Spray. Remember your favorite holiday parties where all your loved ones got together and shared wonderful memories and memorable food? You can have it all over again. Just add Crayon.

We'll be right back.