Speak to Me in French
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What you're about to hear is an unscripted, one-time couples counseling session. It contains mature themes and listener discretion is advised. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

We met each other in college, in an opera scenes workshop, actually. Our director kept putting us in scenes together, and by the end of the term, we finally figured out that, oh, that romantic thing that you were doing, well, that was actually real. That wasn't just acting. Desire and attraction, that has never been there for us. And we were part of what was called the evangelical purity culture movement of the late 90s.

We have changed our views since then. We're both spiritual sort of people. I guess I tend more toward the atheistic side now. But it was really important to us to remain pure until marriage. My husband and I didn't kiss until we got engaged. And the night that I got engaged, I kissed him. And even though my heart and my head knew I was totally in love with this man, my body was screaming, "No, this is not right."

We're two survivors of childhood sexual abuse who managed to find one another, get married, and then find out that we were sexually mismatched. But not only that, we were sort of, you know, each of us within our own cauldron of sexual confusion and dysfunction. Anytime I try to have sex with him, I feel like I'm forcing myself. It feels incestuous.

So when I listen to this couple,

I am imagining that sex for these two people at this point has become a subject that is so fraught, that is mired in pain, in trauma, and that is very serious. And that from that place, not much change can come. So I'm thinking, how do I guide them to at least one experience where sexuality for them can be experienced with lightness, with fun, with joy?

People come in with a story. At the end of the first session, I want them to live with a different story. Because a different story is what breeds hope, is what gives them the sense of possibility. And this is Where Should We Begin? with Astaire Peral. You need a new perspective. Otherwise, it's going to be one more interesting chat, but with no movement. And then you start to feel more hopeless each time.

So I want a tiny bit more info, just so I have a sense of what you've done, because I understand I'm not the first person you're speaking with. But I also had this idea that maybe you would do the entire session as two options. One is you change names. And I thought since you sing, right? You could speak with different accents, but you need to become different people in play.

Or I blindfold you or I ask you to close your eyes, basically. And you do the entire session without looking at each other. Which one do we... You can say no to all the above, of course. I will change names, but I would also kind of curious to blindfold because I am so...

I people-please a lot by getting people's facial reactions, so I'm like looking at you for every single reaction, trying to judge it all, and if I was blindfolded, maybe I would be able to hear things in a different way. That's exactly the way I thought of it. I thought, how do I change your perspective? And if it gets uncomfortable or inane, we take, we stop. Just the first thing I think about when I see stuckness is, where do I introduce something completely new? Since she always sees him in a certain way.

And she sees him as this man that is like this. And I thought, what if I close her eyes? She'll see something else. And in fact, she'll have to listen more. She'll have to sense more. She'll have to experience touch more. So that was really that. How do I change the perception? Oh, it'd be so interesting. What would happen if I closed her eyes for an entire session? So she had the scarf on her until almost till the end. Close your eyes. Put that thing on. I'll help you.

Well, I can certainly do the first option. The changing names? Yeah, because I have a character. This actually happened spontaneously. There's one night he just started speaking to me in French, and we called this character Jean-Claude, and it's everything that I wanted from a partner. He's very arrogant and sexy, and we've been playing with this for a couple of months now, and it's really helped a lot.

But it's to the point where I'm just like, can Jean-Claude come home? Can Scott stay outside? And I think you've gotten a little... Is it fair to say you're a little jealous of Jean-Claude? I don't often bring him out spontaneously or without an invitation because it's not the person that I inhabit. But it's a person that I would like to inhabit more and in my individual therapy...

My therapist tries to encourage me to inhabit that character more, but that character has no sexual hang-ups, that character has no... none of the problems that I face. That is fantastic! But half of the problem with it is that she doesn't understand anything that I'm saying. Which means... On s'en fout. As they say, who cares? I know, right? It doesn't matter! She doesn't have to understand. She energetically gets you. It is actually wonderful. D'accord.

And I will do the translation. Thank you. But in a way, she doesn't need the words because she's going to sense you differently. She's going to see you differently. By not understanding you, she will actually see you differently. She has already. She will feel you differently. And all of that is equivalent to communication. So, bonjour Jean-Claude.

Bonjour, Esther. It's like the French lesson, you know. Il est un peu nerveux. Bien sûr, bien sûr. Le plus important, the most important thing is that Jean-Claude is as real to you as God. But Jean-Claude, one cooks, one makes love.

One speaks one way, one speaks the other way. One holds himself in a certain tightness, the other one, as you say, has no hang-ups. And he lives inside of you. And if you can play him, then you are him. And you get to experience him. And you bifurcate the entire stuckness. Do you have another name too? Oh, sometimes he calls me Jacqueline when we're in the French...

When he is different, he calls you by a different name too. That's it, we're done. And then I feel that people have given me the permission. They trust me. They trust me and they say, take us out of this mess.

Help us. And I feel that that permission emboldens me. It allows me to then say, we're going to play together. And if at any point it stops feeling like it's play, we stop.

You're welcome to go reach out for his hand, but you may find the hand of Jean-Claude. They're not so separate. One dangerous, one safe. Maybe Jean-Claude is safe too.

You've got it completely divided. Totally. So, try it. You know, when you are touching a Jean-Claude, it's a different grip. Scott usually has this lethargic, limp, kind of no support. But with the Jean-Claude, I feel you gripping my hand differently. I feel like my hand can relax in yours. It's very different from the way you normally hold my hand. Je me sens très fort. And as soon as I hear your accent, I get all giddy and I shiver a little bit. He feels...

Powerful and strong. I love that. That's what I've always wanted for you. I've always wanted to be the one where you could be the one in charge and I didn't have to be. It's a bit difficult for Scott to relinquish. To let go. To let go of power. Scott struggles to let go. And Jean-Claude? He knows himself. He's confident, Jean-Claude.

Jean-Claude knows what he wants, what he's going to do. Jean-Claude always knows what he wants and what he's going to do. And that is so not Scott. That is so different than... He's locked up in a basement with a key.

Explain to me who had the key, who locked him up or why did he lock himself up? My mother. My mother. My mother and my father. And my father. Now you're talking as Scott, so you can say it in English. My mom shut down my sexuality when I was just coming into it. And...

made it clear that I was not to be like my father, who enjoyed sex. I was not to be like other men who I think must have demanded sex of her. I was to be the good boy. I was to be the perfect husband. And she made me into something of a surrogate husband, oversharing. And I, in response to that, shamed myself whenever I felt sexual and tried to

to be only intellectual. In fact, I shut down all of my emotions. So you became part of the purity movement? Yes. The church, it gave you... The church gave me a place of safety where other people were supporting me in not being sexually active, where it was sacred to be non-sexual before marriage. I mean, I became part of the religion mainly because it was a source of

a source of friends. It was a source of people who were like-minded, who wanted to be good and who sanctified goodness above all else. So here's one thing I want to challenge. Scott good, Jean-Claude bad. Because that's more of the same. It is. I want you to imagine good and sexual. Because if you're going to use this very interesting line of sex is bad and dirty, but save it for the one you love, how do you make...

Jean-Claude, sexual, adult, responsible, and good. Scott wants to be a good boy. And Jean-Claude is a bad boy. Well, that's good because I like bad boys. Scott doesn't like bad boys. And Jacqueline loves the bad boys.

And a part of why sometimes a woman likes the bad boy is not because she likes to be very, very clear. It's not because she likes the man to be a predator. But it's because the bad boy

as you described, knows to take care of himself perfectly well. Thank you. And so he frees her from having to feel responsible for him, for having to worry about him, from having to experience his anxiety. And so since he can let go and is in his pleasure, it frees her up to be in her pleasure. Yes. You want to put this in your own words, Madame Jacqueline?

So often I feel like I'm editing myself around you sexually. I feel like if I breathe wrong, if I move wrong, if I'm too playful, if I'm too strong, that I will turn Scott off because that is what has happened. And I feel like when you are Jean-Claude, when you are connected to your passion and your badness, I feel like I am free to bring all of who I am. Jean-Claude wants you to trust him. Jean-Claude wants you to know that he...

Jean-Claude can hold you. Jean-Claude can withstand the force of your desire. Jean-Claude doesn't feel threatened by it. You don't have to worry with Jean-Claude that you've held back for so many years. He's got you. I would love to believe that that is true. But wait, I need to check if that fits him. I think so. Yes? Yes, I think so.

C'est un petit parti de tout de mon être. It's a small part, or it's a part of who I am, and yes, it fits. But the fear that I'm too much is not about him. That's an old script from childhood, because I was too much for my entire family. So your fear that you are too much, and therefore you have to hold back, which you have now transferred onto, he can't handle me,

and then made it his issue because he's too fragile and I have to protect him and therefore I have to mother him and I have to hold back. You're putting on him a fear that is yours. And the fantasy is if I felt and if I was with somebody hugely powerful, then I won't be too much. It's like the bigger they are, the more they can take me on versus maybe not too much. You have no idea on some level

So tell me about the I was too much at home. As a child? Oh, I was the black sheep of the family. I was too loud. I was too outspoken. And any time I did voice my opinions, I was verbally and emotionally abused to the point where I was just terrified to feel what I feel, to express what I feel, because it would just come with such a big smackdown.

And it's been great being with Scott because he's been the first person who has made it safe for me to talk about these truths with the exception of sexuality. In sexuality, I feel like I have tried to bring more of my wild side to you. And Scott... To him. Sorry? Scott isn't here right now. Oh, sorry. Jean-Claude. I love that you can... You brought your wild side to Scott and things didn't go well. But right now in this room...

You're talking with Jean-Claude. Jean-Claude. Working with role play in therapy has a long tradition that comes from psychodrama that was started by Moreno. We have a tendency to get stuck in our role, in our own view of things, in the way I see us. A couple that has been together for a long time can often recite the other person's lines by heart.

By now, they know exactly what the other one's going to say. And so you use role play to increase empathy. You use role play to step outside of the narrowness of one's own perspective. You use role play to give people the option to actually tell the other person what they would like to hear from them. Jean-Claude, I so want to open myself up to you. I want to

Bring everything of who I am to you and have you meet it with your energy. But can you, can your spirit dance with mine? Can you not care if you look silly when you dance? Will you just dance with me anyway? Can you not care how droopy we get as we get older? Can you still look at me with lust for the spirit that's inside of me?

Can you not shame me for the fact that I have wild fantasies and want to act them all out and that I'm not even remotely conservative like my family would like me to be? Can you not shame me for that? Can you say these are the things I love about you as opposed to the things that these are the things I want to punish you for? Thank you, monsieur. Je voudrais faire tout ça avec toi, comme tu es. I want to do all of this with you.

the way you are. Are you sure? Like Jean-Claude? Yes. Like Jean-Claude. Jean-Claude. Yes. What Jacqueline needs to hear, what Jacqueline needs to hear from you is that it is okay for her to bring out the full spectrum of her sexuality and that it won't be shamed or vilified or used or abused as it was.

There is no greater vengeance than to be the most happy one can be. There is no greater vengeance against sexual abuse than to reclaim one's full sexuality and celebrate it. And this woman would like to celebrate with you. But when you have created together the family that you both didn't have, it feels like you can't bring that lustfulness home.

So how do you bring lust home and how do you put the ex back in sex? Jean-Claude brings the ex and Jacqueline brings the ex. So imagine Jacqueline reaching out to this French man of yours. Il est grand, il est beau. He's tall, he's gorgeous. He knows what he wants. He's quite confident. He knows what he wants and what he wants is you. When he strokes your hand, he's not making sure if he's doing it right. He's doing what he enjoys.

as he's doing right now. So breathe this in, Jacqueline. It's very different from the way Scott touches me. There's nothing tentative about Jean-Claude's touch. Jean-Claude touches with tenderness but intention. There's a certain pressure without force. There's no clumsiness. It's beautiful. It's what I've always wanted. Thank you. It's different because I'm touching you for my pleasure. Great.

It's different because when I touch you as Jean-Claude, I touch you for my pleasure. And yet I feel more pleasure because of it. Yes. It's so different. You are listening to Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We'll be back in a minute. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Squarespace.

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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

Now, back to Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. What they don't know is how to make the transition from not hurting to enjoying. That's the work. And a lot of the work on sexual trauma is often very good at healing the break and at putting on the cast and even at removing the cast. But it doesn't do the re-education afterwards. The re-education afterwards is the joy, the openness, the play, the freedom, the pleasure.

I touch you as I want to be touched by you. I touch you without the fear of being selfish. Yes? Yes, that's right. And without the fear of criticism. And I touch you without the fear of being criticized. I touch you as I enjoy to touch you. Meaning I stay inside myself and I connect with you.

He just rolled his eyes as saying, "Yes, yes, yes." There's a naughty guy in there. Way more mischief than the world has ever met. Ah, bien sûr. Bien sûr. I saw the way you stroked her as Jean-Claude. It's all inside of you. You are not incompatible, mismatched in everything you wrote on the paper.

I don't know where you got that story, but it's not. You don't know what stuff goes into this guy's head, but it may not be nearly that different from yours. And now all my stuff is coming up because while I desire closeness, there's another part of me that's like, get the hell away from me. Like there's protective walls that are like, okay, this was nice, too much closeness, and you go over there.

She has that moment of crosswire between come, come on to me, take me, be strong. But then the moment he actually does this because of who he is and the transference she has, it then switches into I'm subjugated and I just have to take it. And now we're in the trauma mode. So he becomes the man she wants him to be and he has the power she wants him to have, but then it becomes he's having power over her.

So at any second, the story can jinx with the overlays of their respective childhood stories. Every second, it is a miracle these people manage to have sex on occasion. I hate needing you because I just want to feel independent. I don't want to need anyone. I feel like I have to apologize for everything that I am. I'm never enough. I'm never beautiful enough. I'm never thin enough. I'm never talented enough.

I don't say the right things, I'm too sexual, I'm too opinionated, I hurt you all the time. Then stop speaking. That was Scott. That was not a Jean-Claude Kiss. Alright, let's do it again. Okay. In French, it will be easier. And don't speak anymore. Just be yourself. What does that mean? Don't speak and just allow yourself to be you.

I felt like I was kissing a different person. That's a different kiss than what I normally get. I liked it. Shut the fuck up. You feel okay? But why is this different? I have been begging you for this for years. You can't do that. Can't do what?

You know, it's like, "Kiss me, kiss me, kiss me. I'm dying for you to kiss me." And when he finally kisses you, you say, "What took you so long to kiss me?" -Yup. -And this is the place where you need to challenge and just say, "You're not invited here in this moment." And yet Jacqueline wants to be an adult. Jacqueline wants to find her sexuality and express it. And there's this war.

Then I also understood that the struggle is actually, at that moment, the struggle is more with her. It goes back and forth. One minute one of them manages, but then the other one. And she was extremely honest in saying, I'm not there, I'm in this war, I'm in this battle inside my head. I want, I don't want, can I trust? Is this the first time you own this, instead of all putting it on him? No, no, I've noticed this for the past...

What, a year or so? I feel like I've owned this. But I think that it's... I'm realizing now that I can bring Jacqueline outside to other people, but to Jean-Claude, to Scott, no. There's these huge walls of fear. Right. But if you can bring that part of you to other men, that's not because he doesn't have it. It's because you can't do it with him. Are we clear on that? Yeah.

Jean-Claude has only recently come into the picture. That is true. And the other things I've experienced for the majority of our relationship has been different. It has been where I have exposed myself and more my true self, and it was met with condemnation and shame and anger and shut down. So I have very good reasons for why I feel the way I do. It's not all my fault. Not at all. Thank you. Thank you. He's nodding his head. So he's in agreement with you.

Do you need Scott to acknowledge something? Do you need Scott to make amends? Yeah. That was said without a doubt. So, have you ever? I guess not to the extent that she needs. I think I've acknowledged that I have my own problems. No. Be actually much more specific. When I said or did this... When I tell you...

Sometimes when we're making love or trying to, that you're too much or that I can't handle what you're asking me for. You must feel so unseen and so unwanted. And I'm sorry for that. Thank you. I've not felt safe or welcome to bring my false self to you. Well, Scott's a pretty emasculated person. What happens to him? What happens? When she makes even a simple request.

He feels obligated to fulfill it to the detriment of his own pleasure. He doesn't take care of himself. And then he loses interest in sex because he's not taking care of his own needs. So fulfilling the needs of a strong woman has been a big... Strong or needy? Is there a difference? Oh! My mother! Yeah, my mother was both strong and needy. That's true. So for me there has not been a difference.

um so when i see strength i also impute need or neediness you with somebody else at those moments sure yeah no there's definitely a different version of her inside of my head at those moments right you're her father and she's your mother yeah who wants to have sex in the family exactly right it feels incestuous i've always complained about that

I sometimes want to hit you because I just can't stand what I feel. It feels... - Icky. - Icky! Yes, it feels icky. And it doesn't feel icky to me. The closeness and the cuddling and the things that to her feel like family, to me, that's where my sexuality begins. It comes out of a feeling of closeness and intimacy and then, "Oh, now let's be sexual."

And then we're cuddling on the couch and you try to make it sexual. And I'm like, oh, don't do this. Don't do it. Don't, don't make it. Don't, I just, I get so resentful that you've taken this moment that felt safe and nurturing and turned it sexual. Whereas I want to be sexual from a place of anger and mystery and separateness.

You want sex with Jean-Claude? Yes. And he? Who rides a motorcycle and has a lot of different women and a few men and is very independent and is not tied down to anyone and simply uses people for his pleasure. I'm going to challenge that. That's a caricature of Jean-Claude. Okay. And that's why I want you to think good and sexual.

When you hold her hand before, when you hold her face before, it is utterly caring, but also very present and also very pleasure-focused. I prefer to be Jean-Claude. But Jean-Claude can give too. Jean-Claude can give too. Are you flirting with her? No. No, only with you. Only with you.

And all I feel bubbling up are all these excuses of why I can't be Jacqueline and why it's wrong and why you can't let that out. Okay. Is there music Jacqueline likes? She loves French music. Edith Piaf. Any particular song? Je ne regrette rien. Yes, yeah. Does she sing it?

I don't sing it in French, so I don't know it. And as they told me that it was a song by Piaf and it was Non, je ne regrette rien, I knew the song for one. And so I had my moment of recognition. And then I did something that I never do. I sang. Non, je ne regrette rien Ni le mal qu'on m'a fait Ni le bien

It's actually very apt for what you've experienced. Do you know what she's saying? No regrets, right? I regret not the bad, the evil that was done to me, the pain that was caused to me. That's why I'm singing it for you. So here's going to be a challenge. When she gets upset, which is totally normal, you will learn to comfort each other as adults and not as one child and one adult. Jean-Claude can comfort you.

He can tell her a few things and we don't have to go and spend the entire evening there. And then we need a different song. I'm sorry. Could be piaf, but it can't be this way. Because we're not going to sing trauma. It's almost like there's a switch inside of me that I allow the child to feel the pain, but I don't always allow the adult to feel pleasure. So what you want is to help each other stay.

Stay with these other parts of you that are there. They just don't... They have not been given much permission. So don't make a long speech. Just basically say, "I'm having unwanted guests." Or something very short that just cues, "Help me stay. Help me be in the present. Go put some lipstick." If you start to wander away and I feel you, I can call you back.

I would like that. And you can call me out. You can call me out of the forest. So when the wires get crossed, you simply tell him, "Speak to me in French." Speak to me in French. This was an adult version of imaginary play. The therapy itself is a new experience, closer to the one that the people want to have. It mirrors it.

Of course, it's not a one session only. I know they can go home and lose it, which is why I said, you know, you're going to slip. It's how you teach people to stay in the story. Another story, because they're in the story. They're just in a stuck story of their life about to divorce. This couple doesn't need to divorce at all. At all. This is a couple that has everything in them to claim this part of them. They deserve it. They're entitled to it.

Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity, Unlocking Erotic Intelligence, and her new book, The State of Affairs, Rethinking Infidelity. Both are available on Audible. For more episodes of Where Should We Begin, go to audible.com slash Esther. And if you're interested in being a part of the series or to sign up for Esther's newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin is an Audible original production produced by Olivia Knott and Eva Wolchover.

Produced and sound designed by Paul Schneider. Recorded by Noriko Okabe. Our executive producers are Esther Perel and me, Jessie Baker. Eric Newsom is our big boss, and we couldn't do this without Lindsay Rutowski and June Cohen. This is Audible.