259. Eastern Europe & “The Great Betrayal” (Ep 4)
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Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnon. And me, William Drimple. So day one of the Yalta conference, it's tetchy, it's tense. They've all sort of stated their positions of what they want to get out of it. Day two, they're going to have to start negotiating how it's all going to work. It starts the day grimly in the American space at the Livadia Palace because Anna's really worried about her father's health.

So right from the get-go, everybody's smoking like a chimney around the table and he's already got a weak chest and is not feeling well. And his coughing is kind of out of control. And his cardiologist has told Anna that he is in a really precarious situation. There's talk of hypertension, which leaves him tired and tetchy, makes it difficult for him to concentrate. And when he's being pushed around in his wheelchair, every jostle and jolt on the sort of

the war-torn tarmac from the landing strip to the actual venue is just making him feel worse and worse. Anna writes to her husband about her dad saying his ticker situation is far more serious than I ever knew and it's truly worrisome. There's not a hell of a lot anyone can do and knowing how sensitive the information could be if it gets out to the American public, she says,

better tear off and destroy this paragraph. Obviously, he didn't. So Roosevelt's determined to carry on. It's going to be this day that he is going to start making his proposals for the United Nations and how it would work. They've discussed it already in Tehran. He just needs to get them over the line, the Soviets over the line, and then that will be his huge legacy. Also, actually now, people are looking back saying he was not the man to be at Yalta.

He was not the man to handle these negotiations. He shouldn't have been doing it at all. He had a duty to tell his people how ill he was. There's a historian called Robert Hugh Ferrell who's written a book called The Dying President

And he accuses Roosevelt of going to enormous lengths to hide his health situation, not just from the big two, but also from his own people and enlisting the FBI director, J. Edgar Hoover, to cover up as well. Truman, when he does replace him eventually...

We'll have to play catch up with very few briefings from Roosevelt in his head of where he was and what the conversations were. Did Roosevelt dislike Truman or was he not telling him because he didn't like him or didn't trust him or just wanted to pretend he was fine? I mean, I'm no expert on their dynamics, but if you care…

about your position, it behoves you whether you hate his guts or not to inform him. You have to tell him. But by doing that, he would have given away more than he wanted to. The Sphinx doesn't give away how ill he is. There's a really odd story about his medical records going missing from the official record. No one's able to find them.

They're missing. Interesting. They're missing. All those documents have gone. Anyway, so Roosevelt's struggling to get on with business as usual. Churchill starts the day in bed, which he sort of stays in bed until that. As usual. Yeah, but he's in a really dark mood. So, you know, there's a dark mood at the American base camp and there is a terrible dark mood because Churchill...

who is not allowed to receive top, top secret documents. They've already said, you know, actually anything that's very sensitive should not be sent to Yalta. There must be a better way of getting him information because the Soviets are all over everything. They're bugging everything. They're reading everything. But he does get news of a worrying development in Greece, which is another place that he's really very worried that the communist sphere of influence is going to press in and shrink everything.

sort of, in his mind, free-thinking Europe even further. And this isn't actually Russian direct intervention. There's been a civil war going on in Greece, you know, two sides fighting to stop a communist, one a communist side and the other not. And there are British troops in this war, aren't there? Absolutely. My wonderful old English teacher at school, her

fought in this war and I think as did the young Paddy Lee Fermor. Is that right? Paddy Lee Fermor took part in this famous cavalry charge which there's a number of cavalry charges it's always said to be the last cavalry charge in history and one of them is in the Greek Civil War. Elas, the Greek People's Liberation Army. That's it. Yeah,

That's exactly right. And just a few weeks before Yalta happens, Elas, the Greek People's Liberation Army, had taken the north and the west of Greece. The British had launched an offensive against them and had taken Athens previously. But now it was all looking decidedly shaky. I remember on the naughty list, Churchill had tried to keep...

Greece within the Western and British sphere of influence and not have it go over to the communists. But the communists have got their own momentum now. They've got their momentum. And also, Churchill is reading in this dispatch that has got to him that, alas, that the communists are interning over 1,000 British civilians and 15,000 well-to-do Greeks. And thousands of these

will eventually die from beatings, forced marches and exposure. So he is going to go into this negotiation in a hideous mood because even though it's not the Russians, they're the communist supporters for communists. And so he does not trust them and he's losing Greece.

So look, let's talk in a bit more detail about day two, because it's the real hard work is going to begin on day two. And I mentioned sort of maps had been produced on the first day where they'd look. Now they were going to go through the nitty gritty of these maps. And they had these enormous things that were produced and rolled out over vast tables. And they literally took Sharpies to these things. So what the Soviets want is they want a dismantling of maps.

Germany, so that Germany will almost be sort of divided out of existence.

and that they will never, ever, ever be able to rise again. And actually, Roosevelt's like, can we talk less about the destruction? Because he sees how much this annoys Churchill. Churchill's really worried about destabilizing Central Europe. He's much more in favor of denazification of Germany, but not destroying it or whipping it into the dust, because that will cause an enormous amount of resentment. They may rise up again. You give them a grievance

They will fight. You give them a way out. They will turn on their leaders. You know, the war is not won yet. So he's saying, you know, look, why are you talking like this? Stalin's very keen to sort of even put it out there that we're going to destroy and dismantle Germany. And Churchill's sort of saying to him, that's a stupid strategy. It's just going to make them fight harder.

Basically, when they get their Sharpies out, they divide Germany into three. And although Berlin is in the Soviet-controlled zone and it is the capital, they also decide that they're going to divide that city into three. So basically, what you've got is a pie within a pie with

with slices out of it. While they're drawing the map, there is a problem with the Soviet bit. They want to have this line drawn through the capital and it sort of takes in all the heritage building, city hall, parliament, the most imposing bits of Berlin and everyone's fine if you want that, take it. But there's this bulge in their quadrant because it's only three at the time, which will sort of lead to the Red Army

being almost sort of surrounding another quarter. And Churchill's dead against this. And so, you've got already a lack of agreement. And then Churchill throws in, by the way, what about the French?

You can't not have the French. I mentioned this yesterday. Nobody wanted to talk about it. Can we talk about it today? We really need to have the French here. And Roosevelt, again, in his position as chair of this meeting, is trying to calm things down. He throws into the conversation, this is a really weird thing that he does on day two. He says, okay, look, we can talk about the French in a moment, but can I just also say that we're

We probably won't stay in Europe much more than two years. And Churchill is dumbfounded. Like, what? You're not going to stay beyond two years. Hang on a minute. How is this a permanent solution to keeping peace in Europe?

And if you're not going to stay, then what happens to your bit? Stalin is pricking up his ears at this point. Right. Okay, this is music to his ears. So then it becomes even more imperative for Churchill to get the French involved. They must be given a zone of occupation. They must be a full member of this Allied Control Commission that will administer a defeated Germany, says Churchill. I'm just not having this. And Stalin is completely contemptuous of the French. This is why...

should France, which in his words, opened the gates to the enemy, deserve a place in Berlin. Yeah, and Roosevelt lets Churchill down again. It's like, you know,

He sort of arms and arms. He doesn't back him up. He still leads his United Nations in his war against Japan. And it's worth sort of saying what's happened to General de Gaulle because he's not invited to Yalta or later he won't be invited to the Potsdam conference either. And that is a diplomatic slight which the French feel to this day. Will not forget. They won't forget.

He had fled to London after the fall of France. And famously, three days after the Nazis marched in on June the 17th, he has borrowed a friend's apartment at number three Curzon Square and drafted a passionate call to arms to the French to rise up and fight, rise up. You sent me a wonderful picture, Anita, of him in

with his sort of wonderful 1930s, 1940s microphone, making the great address to the French people from Curzon Street, Curzon Square. I, General de Gaulle, now in London, call on all French officers and men who are not present on British soil or maybe in the future, with or without arms, I call on all engineers, skilled workmen from the armaments factories who are at present on British soil or maybe in the future, get in touch with me.

I guess he's going to, the rebellion starts now from Curzon Square. And Stalin just says, you know, just, I don't care. I do not care about the French. The French are not important. They are cowards. They deserve nothing. And Churchill is completely furious. He says- Absolutely livid. Stalin talks of France as a country without a past. Does he not know her history? Just like anyone that knows the Middle East just-

Every time they hear Trump just talk about creating a Riviera in Gaza or something, have they no idea of the history of this place? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, Stalin doesn't care. He doesn't care. And Stalin also sees a potential to make a deal here because there's something that he wants as well. He wants maximum reparations from Germany. You talked about how many lives had been lost, Soviet lives had been lost during the war. Yeah.

But they've also, you know, they're almost bankrupted by the war effort as well. So they have this like kind of weird thing that Molotov and he have decided to do this kind of Laurel and Hardy show at the conference where one will be good cop and one will be bad cop. And it's always Molotov who's going to be the bad cop. And Stalin is going to say, relax, Molotov, be reasonable. Stonehouse is his nickname. Yeah. So they do this thing where he says, okay, look, just everyone relax about France.

Churchill's still digesting this announcement from Roosevelt that they're only going to stay for two years and that's completely wrong-footed. Everybody in the British contingent is like, "Just stop letting us down. You're meant to be our allies, America." Instead, Stalin says, "Let's talk about reparations." He turns to Molotov and says very pointedly, "Let's talk about reparations." Molotov mutters to him, "Five or ten?" Stalin just says, "Ten."

And it's $10 billion that he wants. He doesn't think it's realistic. It's a game. You'll get towards what you want. And at this point, when they say that's ridiculous, Churchill says $10 billion? They don't even have $10 billion. Where are you even getting these numbers? These numbers don't make any sense. Stalin does something that's very un-Stalin because he's always the one who sort of pushes Molotov to do the unpopular positions. He gets up on his feet and he starts gesticulating wildly, saying,

Do you think that we don't deserve reparations for all that we have done? And Churchill says, look, you're bleeding Germany dry. Don't you remember after the First World War? And if you do bleed Germany dry, who's going to pay for food? A phantom starving Germany, he calls it. That's what you want to... And it starts getting really very...

He says, if you want a horse to pull your wagon, you have to give him some hay. Right. And that's right. But care should be taken that the horse does not turn around and kick you, says Stalin. So it's turning into like a real sort of mess. I love this detail here that Soviet ambassador to the US, Andrei Gromyko,

realizes that he can tell how tense Churchill is by counting the number of cigar stubs in his ashtray. And that Churchill's cigar per hour is the kind of the heartbeat of Churchill's anxiety. So Churchill, in between sort of smoking numerous, very frustrated. And he's quite alone here, remember, you know, it says, okay, look,

We'll get a commission on this. 10 billion is just nuts. We'll have a US-UK-Soviet commission and we'll look at reparations.

And then Stalin says, yes, okay, but the three powers who have made the most sacrifices must have the first claim. And Churchill says, what about the smaller countries? They've also suffered. What about, you know, reparations for them? You know, they've lost people, they've fought. And he quotes Marx, Churchill does at this point. And he says, each according to his needs. Remember, Chairman Stalin and Stalin snaps. I prefer another principle, each according to his deserts.

One wonders what it was that Churchill actually read Marx. Oh, I'm sure he had. He was a very, well, I'm sure he had. I mean, you know...

I'm sure he had, as a given. Roosevelt is like, now it's turning into a bit of a bun fight across the table. He says, "Okay, look, we must have somewhere we can compromise here." Stalin, in this act of largesse, which is not largesse at all, says, "You know what? I'm not willing to compromise on reparations. That's what we are going to get. 10 billion is what we're going to get."

That's it. My final word. But if you want the French to have a bit of Berlin, I'm willing to do that. But they take it out of your bits to the Americans. He's much the best negotiator of the three, isn't he? You can't read about Yeltsin without coming out thinking with increased respect for at least Stalin's canniness and shrewdness at the negotiating table. So Roosevelt says that sounds really reasonable. Okay. Well,

We'll do that. Wait, what? And they all begin to worry, even on the American side. Harry Hopkins, who's the chief foreign policy advisor at this point, is aware, like Churchill is, that Roosevelt's caving in to all of Stalin's demands. Again, not what you'd expect. This is not what I was reading about this. Special relationship. My shoe. Yeah.

And he argues that it's a political impossibility to endeavour to administer Germany without the participation of France, hereditary enemy and neighbour and our oldest friend. So Hopkins is pushing alongside Churchill. What are you doing, Roosevelt? What are you doing? And it's a bad day as well, because the timing of this is just perfect. Time magazine on that very day has run a front page cover of Stalin.

Being the man of the moment. And speaking to his daughter, Churchill, who knows about this Time magazine cover and everything that's just been caved into and suddenly France is getting something but out of their quarters and it looks like the Red Army might actually surround other quadrants. This is kind of not what we wanted. This is not right.

He says to his daughter, I do not suppose that at any moment in history has the agony of the world been so great or so widespread. Tonight, the sun goes down on more suffering than ever before. It's a very gloomy Churchill. It's not at all the Churchill with the bottle of Bollinger that we sometimes imagine. He's a very gloomy man at this point. Yes, I mean, the talks are really...

And as you say, Stalin seems to have the upper hand all the time. And certainly in the American dispatches, they are admiring of Stalin's negotiating style. They also know when they're being played. They know this sort of Molotov-Stalin double act is a double act. They know who's really calling the shots, but they're impressed by all of it.

The next day, this is just kind of a cute little aside, okay. So you've got lots of descriptions from everybody about how ridiculous and over the top the food is given to each of the camps. So, you know, there's caviar for breakfast every morning and this is actually getting

completely on everyone's nerves. The rights are a problem to have. Too much caviar. There's a helping saucer of caviar for each person in the first course of breakfast every day, followed by herring, bread, fruit and tea. And the menu never varies. And it's so bad because there's a very senior American military man who's very aptly named General Marshall.

Yeah, nominative to sterminism. To test fish and he's allergic to shellfish. Yeah, can't eat shellfish. And so all he can eat during autumn, which adds to his tetchiness, is a stack of jumbo-sized Hershey bars that he's brought with him because he can't eat anything. But they do decide on this day or before they go and convene for their evening session of talks.

and maybe just to change the scene and maybe just to be able to have a chat without the pressures of the conference looming that they're going to go and have a look at

And, you know, Sarah Churchill says Churchill's really keen to see, you know, the location of the famous Charge of the Light Brigade. But as they're searching for it, they come across a human skeleton on the ground. And it's just a complete sort of shock into reality that they are in the middle of a war. They have got to get this agreed. They have only got four more days to agree to some really important things because then the Russians are going to take Berlin.

And there's no point talking anything at all. The Russians can just dictate whatever they like. And they look around and they sort of see, you know, around this area where the Charge of the Light Brigade took place. And they see this hulk of a downed aircraft and burned out tanks and row upon row of shells and bomb craters. And Sarah says it's so very strange how history can repeat itself under a different guise. So it is gloomy. The British camp is gloomy. Not so far from where shell holes are still there.

peppering bits of Ukraine a short distance over the causeway. And, you know, a good time to remind people, Crimea since 2014.

is in Russian control. Putin has it. So anyway, do you want to take us to the fourth plenary session with Roosevelt actually raising the issue of Poland? Someone who doesn't want to annoy Stalin, he has to go straight in and talk about Poland and it's not a comfortable conversation. So the item in the agenda that everyone knows is going to be the worst sticking point is Poland because the Soviets now have total control.

The British have sitting in London an entire Polish government in exile, and the Soviets have a Soviet-backed government that they've already set up and which is in power. And so there's no room for General Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, the Polish equivalent of General de Gaulle also in London, to come in and have his slice of the cake. And they've got somehow on this day to hammer out some sort of compromise that will

allow both the Soviets and the Western Americans and British to feel that they've reached some sort of compromise on Poland. But it's not going to be easy. Anita, what happens? First of all, they say, look, can we just get some people from your Soviet Lublin administration to be here to talk about this and how we can carry this forward? And the Soviets say, well, we can't reach them. We can't find them to get them into these talks. So we can't agree to anything. Clearly improbable.

Absolute bullshit. But we can't have them, so we can't really agree on their behalf because we need to talk to them and we haven't been able to talk to them. And Roosevelt, after much haggling, says, okay, look, we're willing to just put that we need a broadly democratic government which will include representatives from both the exiled London government and the Soviet-backed Lublin government. Would that be okay? Stalin going, sure, sure, sure.

Yeah, that's like a meaningless statement. It'll be broadly democratic. That's fine. But I want to talk about something else. Broadly democratic. We can do that. No problem. You can put my little blue tick next to that. That's absolutely fine. But since we're talking about Poland, I'd quite like to...

to talk about where Poland is. To move the borders a little, yeah. Just move it just across. You can see where they're coming from as well. You can see where everyone's coming from. He does not want to be invaded again.

by anybody. And so he needs a buffer zone, a sphere of influence that surrounds his interests. And because he's got total control now of the Red Army all over Poland, there's not a huge amount of leverage that either America or Britain can bring to bear. So he wants a territory of Poland in the east to increase this buffer zone and stop any kind of European invaders in the future. And airily he kind of says, you know,

Well, I mean, do you think the Poles might mind having not as much of their country as before? He says, well, no, it's okay. You can compensate them with the stuff that the Nazis took with a bit of Germany that the Germans took. You know, the Oder-Niss line will become the western border of Poland. The Kursan line can be used as the eastern border with the Soviet Union. Essentially, we'll just shift it over.

to the West. And Churchill knows he's just... I mean, Roosevelt doesn't care about Poland. He doesn't really even care very much about what happens in Europe. This is the charge against him. Roosevelt just isn't prepared to make this a sticking point in any way. That's not important to him. He's got existential crisis facing him with Japan.

And this is why so many in Europe to this day regard Yelter as the great betrayal by their Western allies. Yeah. And so Churchill tries to put this brave face on it, trying to turn it into a bit of a joke. And he says, okay, the West would shift. Okay, the West would shift. Okay.

But no more than the Poles can handle, he says, because, you know, let's ask the Poles what they want to do with their Poland. And he says, it would be a great pity to stuff the Polish goose so full of German food it dies of indigestion. There are some great lines. That's good lines, yeah.

But you know what? They do this kind of weird, eventually broadly democratic thing and then move on and it will shift. So that is the kind of agreement. But he doesn't want to sign off on it. He says, look, we'll sleep on this problem. And Stalin says, fine. Thinking, you sleep on whatever you like, mate. It's fine. Because he knows he's got Roosevelt inside.

Yeah, it's broadly democratic at some point in the future. But you know what? We'll just all sleep on it. And we'll talk about the thing that Roosevelt, who's been very quiet until this point on Poland, because next up is his big passion project, the United Nations. Join us after the break and find out how that conversation goes.

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Welcome back. So yes, the United Nations, as we've said, is one of those things that are very ailing, very weak. Roosevelt wants us his legacy and that's the next thing up on the table, which probably is why he's just not giving support to Churchill or Poland and is accepting all sorts of nebulous promises of the future. So,

Molotov says, look, you know what? We've looked at your proposals for this United Nations thing, but we'd just like to tweak it a bit because as things stand, we're a little bit outnumbered in this United Nations. And so we think permanent seats should be given to three of the 16 Soviet republics.

to the General Assembly of the United Nations, I should say, rather than the Security Council, the General Assembly of the United Nations. We think that, fine, we'll have a seat, that's nice, but Ukraine, Belarusia, and Lithuania should also have seats. You know, the implication is very clear, because then we have four votes. Right?

And you're not going to outvote us. And, you know, they have a point. They do have a point. You know, they don't want to be dominated. And the British dominions, you know, Australia, Canada, says Molotov, they've got votes. Why not our satellite states having votes? What is your argument against that? Now, Roosevelt's had a bit of a bind about this because he's told Congress he's going to oppose any extra seats for the Soviet Union.

So he says, okay, let's just push that. He does what Roosevelt does. We'll just park that. We'll let the foreign ministers... Sort that out later. Sort it out later. But Churchill is not going to let that happen. He's had enough with the Polish thing. It's just really wound him up. Everything's been winding him up. It's not. It's just, you know, he's being outnumbered and outvoted around the table.

Churchill says, actually, no, Britain's got self-governing dominions and they have a right to have a seat at the table. We should say that Churchill has been pepped up by his daughter, Sarah.

realizing that Churchill gets a bit peckish in these sessions because he hasn't had enough to eat. So they managed to slip him some chicken soup in a thermos flask. So he's pepped. He's pepped up. Yeah. It's at this point that we get to Stalin's trump card. And Stalin proposes something that he wants at this stage. He wants the power of

of veto. Now, this obviously matters a lot still. And we see that veto being exercised by the UN Security Council members and still changing the way that the war in Ukraine or Gaza or wherever the latest crisis is, how that plays out because of this power of veto. And this is Stalin's introduction at this point in the ALTA conference. I mean, this has been a really action-packed day. They go back to their respective palaces and

And at the Vorontsov Palace, Churchill telegraphs his war cabinet saying, today has been a much better day. All the American proposals for the United Nations Constitution were accepted by the Russians. Britain is asking a great deal and having places in the General Assembly for her dominions as well as herself. It would shield Britain from criticisms if two or three Soviet republics also had seats. So he kind of gives in.

to Stalin saying, you know, it would mean that we get more because, you know, British Empire bigger, got more dominions. It'll be fine. Furthermore, he says a friendly gesture to the Soviets might be expedient to secure concessions on Poland for which he perceives a glimmer of

of hope. This wasn't actually the first time that the United Nations had been discussed. So it had already been discussed, in fact, at a place called Dunbarton Oaks. It's an estate in Washington and it had been discussed the year before. Not just an estate in Washington. Dunbarton Oaks is the place where any of us who are interested in Byzantium go and study. And our mutual friend Franka Manka...

Peter Frank-O'Byrne, I think, had a long stint at Dumbarton Oaks. And it still has the best sort of classical and Byzantine museum collections in Washington. So if you're interested in that next time you're in Washington, go and see the Dumbarton Oaks Museum. But this is the place where the ideas, the seed of the United Nations was laid. And in

I think it's in August 1944, there had been a conference already to sort of set up the beginnings of the idea. And that had laid the groundwork for this discussion that's now happening in Yalta. And at Dumbarton Oaks, they talked about the voting rights on the Security Council. And it was a real battleground even back then. It was going to always be difficult. Stalin insisted that if the UN had to work, the major powers had to have the ability to veto

discussions of that power of the veto, as William has said, is completely central to foreign policy even today. But it's very interesting that the four policemen

envisaged by Dumbarton Oaks, where United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union, and China. And China at Yalta is completely absent. But even then at Dumbarton Oaks, where Anthony Eden was, he says, you know, Stalin's got them twisted around his finger, even sort of back at Dumbarton Oaks. He says, um,

Of course, the man was ruthless and of course he knew his purpose. He never wasted a word. He never stormed. He was seldom even irritated, hooded, calm, never raising his voice. He avoided the repeated negatives of Molotov. By more subtle methods, he got what he wanted without having to seem obdurate. Yeah, this is what's so brilliant about Stalin. Stalin outplays the others. And it's Churchill that makes, you know, if you look at the quotes in the books about Yalta, all the beautiful quotes come from

Churchill, who's very eloquent, but he talks on and on and on. And Stalin's method is completely different. He says little, gets much done. And Churchill's own team is getting really fed up. They're complaining that he's drinking too much and he's talking too much. And honestly, he's not getting as much as he needs. And Roosevelt, every time that Churchill starts talking, leans over to Harry Hopkins and here we go. That's it for half an hour now.

And so, yeah, so Churchill is making a lot of noise, but not getting what he wants. Stalin's the opposite. And Anthony Eden, of all people, the foreign minister, is deeply impressed. He never wastes a word. He says by subtle methods, he gets what he wants. But isn't it interesting that he's actually, for all that moustache and all that sort of hair oil, he's actually quiet and quiet.

Menace is always more menacing when it's quiet. Yeah. I mean, people just shout and scream. I was sort of cartoonish, but, you know, I mean, just look at Mussolini. Just, you know, he shouted quite a lot and he was sort of quite boorish and clownish. But yeah, Stalin, quiet.

Silent but violent. So look, the United Nations is also going to be the thing on everybody's minds on day six of the conference as well. And the Soviet requests for extra seats, it's going to be considered. They're going to have more talks about this in April, but it's pretty much a done deal as far as the Soviets are concerned. It's going to happen.

Although Roosevelt is a little bit reticent on it because he hasn't discussed it with Congress and he hasn't discussed it. And this is not the plan that he wanted to. But Molotov senses that there's a discomfort. He can...

turn the screws a bit on this. He said, look, if we can't agree here and now, I know Roosevelt, you want to talk about it further down the line, you're not willing to commit, but then let's just tell the world we can't agree on it. And Roosevelt's horrified. He's like, no, no, no, we're not going to do that because basically you're killing the idea of united nations.

even before it's born, if you say we can't agree on it here and now. And the Soviets are laughing into their sleeves because they know it. They know they've got him over a barrel. Not least because they've read in the intelligence documents that they've got that this is the red line for him. So they know that they can squeeze at this point. That is the pressure point. And it works. So Stalin asks, why?

Would you be prepared now to include the admission of the additional Soviet republics in the agenda? And Roosevelt replies, yes. So he wins another point. But you know what? They have that conversation in private behind Churchill's back. That wasn't even done in front of... Again, they're having a meeting. So Stalin has basically gone off to have a meeting with Roosevelt and Churchill is not present. And they're making all of these agreements. And Churchill sort

sort of gets to hear about this pre-meeting meeting and with you know sort of almost Hollywood kind of timing he's not allowed in yeah no he sort of he comes to the door he goes what's going on what's going what's going on in there craning his neck over the security guards and they're like oh nothing to see here sir move along he's like no wait a minute I'm I'm and then the security guards send a note in to Roosevelt yeah and and Roosevelt says let him wait yeah

It's interesting. You know, we are so set with this idea of a special relationship and everything. It's so much part of the world we're brought up in that when Trump...

flirts with Putin. We think it's something completely new, but here is Roosevelt doing exactly the same thing at Yalta. Different motives, different time, but same play. So knowing now Stalin has got what he wants, his Soviet republics, the additional Soviet republics will be allowed in. Roosevelt has agreed to this behind Churchill's back.

Roosevelt says, okay, actually, that's not why I invited you round to talk about this. I wanted to talk to you about the war in Japan. And again, Stalin's got in his request before Roosevelt can get his. And Stalin says, well, yeah, about the Japan thing, we might be willing to come and help you.

But what we'd like is the southern half of Sakhalin Island, north of Japan. It belonged to the Japanese, but he also wanted other areas too. The Kurils, a chain of 32 islands extending from beyond the northmost Japanese home of Hokkaido, northwards to the Russian Kamchatka Peninsula. So he's got this whole map, it's like a shopping list.

If I'm not wrong, a lot of this area had been Russian up to the Russo-Japanese War. Do you remember we did it with Pankaj Mishra last year? And this is some of the territory. 1904 to 1905, yes, that there was taken. So they're getting back their lost territory. Yeah.

But Stalin isn't done. Okay. That's not all he wants. So he wants to get that back. And Roosevelt just says, yes, sure. You can have that back. That makes sense. But Stalin wants something more. He says, and also, since you're in such a generous mood, we'd quite like territory from, you know, your Chinese allies, Chiang Kai-shek. We've got some of their land on our list as well. And we'd like that. And Roosevelt's

Geez, no. He's our ally. Hang on a minute. Chiang Kai-shek, we've taken two years to get an agreement with him. And China, we have a reciprocal agreement. They support us. They help us. I can't just give you their territory and Stalin's like...

You know, this United Nations thing then, this help with Japan thing, not sure we can really accommodate. Churchill is outside this room while these conversations are going on. Not being allowed in. Not being allowed in and being told to wait outside. So he'd start, he's like, well, see, the thing is, if you don't do this for me, Roosevelt, my old friend and possessor of the lemon tree that I flew in specially from Georgia, just because you like your martinis with a twist, just if you don't do this,

I can't go back to the Supreme Soviet period

and say, we're going to war with Japan. Because why are we? What do we get out of it? I cannot sell this to my people, Roosevelt. You've got to help me. Help me to help you. Help me to help you. The irony being that if this conversation had taken place even a month or two later, the Manhattan Project, the atomic bomb, would have been further advanced. But this conference takes place at a point when the Soviets have more cards in their hands than they've ever had before or ever will again.

And so when people look on Yalta as this betrayal of Eastern Europe and this moment of surrender of so much of territory to Stalin,

This is why it is. It's the sheer bad luck. The Ardennes, the Arnhem held up at incredible speed. And a very sick president who may not be firing on all cylinders. And Churchill irritating all the others and not being close enough to his American ally.

So, Stalin's come up with that masterstroke of, I can't sell this. Roosevelt, I'd love to help you. I can't sell this to my people unless they know they're going to get something out of it. And Roosevelt's saying, I cannot turn on an ally. Congress will not let me do that. So, Stalin says, I've got a brilliant idea. Just don't tell them.

Don't tell them. Don't tell Chiang Kai-shek. Let's just shake on it here and now. That'll be fine, but we just don't tell them. And Roosevelt says, okay. And it's just, it is such a mad thing. Roosevelt says there's no need to speak to the Chinese until he

makes a move against Japan. He needs the help, so we'll just not tell them. And it's going to be a real problem. Anita, you know this era of history much more than I do. Is there a version of the Yalta history in which Roosevelt doesn't come across as quite so hopeless? I mean, are there any

Yeah, there are those who say, and yeah, I think Dana Preston's one of them, actually, who says it in her book, that either you can see him as this weak, vacillating creature, or you can see him as the man who brought an end to the war quickly.

And you couldn't have done... He brought peace. How many millions had died? How many more would have died if the war would have dragged on and on? But because the three of them were in a room working in concert to end the war, the war had to end. We're all talking about what this meant to the post-war period, but first you have to end the war and you can't end the war unless you're working with each other. And so there are great defenses put up for Roosevelt. Without him...

Can you imagine Stalin and Britain coming to any kind of agreement without him, without the butter in the sandwich? That would not have happened. And the war may have dragged on and on and countless lives lost. He did his best with the cards he was dealt. That's all we have time for this time. But we are going to come back with the end of the Elta Conference and bring it to its conclusion in the next episode.

So if you want to hear that now, you can join the Empire Club and get all the extraordinary benefits that joining our wonderful club can bring. William keeps promising more and more things. More and more. And presents at Christmas. Yeah, and William's going to come and read bedtime stories to you. If you join the club, empireprojectuk.com, he's going to come and tuck you in every night. Anything else you want to promise? Just without discussing it with anybody else. William is...

is going to give you all a kidney. You join our club, empirepoduk.com, empirepoduk.com. Till the next time we meet. With a free kidney. It's goodbye from me, Anita Arnon. Goodbye from William Durinpool with fewer and fewer kidneys as every second goes by. Kidneys for everyone. Yay.

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