John Fetterman and Kara Talk Strokes, Recovery & Senate Race
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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is War Room Battleground. And I'm your host, Stephen K. Bannon, with about 900% less shirts. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Araza. Today, we have an interview with John Fetterman, the Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania, who's fighting it out with Dr. Oz for a critical Senate seat. And I'm Naeem Araza.

one that could determine the future of the U.S. Senate. Democrats are saying it's one of their best chances to flip a seat. Yeah, and of course, he's recovering from a stroke. And that's one of the issues in the campaign because Dr. Oz is mocking him for his health. And as someone who had a stroke 10 years ago, I understand completely what he's going through. We had a very similar experience. And he's doing really well, as you'll hear, but it's still pretty disturbing that a doctor would make remarks like this. So I wanted to talk to him about it. And I think he's

not happy about it. Not at all. But before we get to the interviews, let's talk about the latest newsmakers that have been capturing our attention. That would be, of course, Elon Musk once again. And President Biden. Let's start with Elon. The drama never ends. Last week, you said the deal was never not on, yet the deal is not exactly on. Well, it's not settled, at least.

The lawyers for Musk have filed a motion alleging Twitter refused the $44 billion deal. Bloomberg's reported that the sticking point is that Elon wanted to add in a contingency pending the receipt of this $12.5 or $13 billion of debt financing.

Which I understand why Twitter would want to slow things down. Yeah, exactly. And I think it was, it's, you know, he just is trying for a delay and that's what the judge gave him. I think it was a smart move on the judge's part in Delaware because now he's got to put up or shut up by this date. And if he could come back and say, doesn't the financing, she could force him to sue the banks.

The new date that you're talking about watching out for is October 28th. I'm sure we'll talk about this 100 times before October 28th. But here's another Elon story, maybe higher stakes for the rest of the world than his ownership of Twitter. He is attempting to be something of a, I guess, Jared Kushner. And by that, I mean a self-appointed peace broker with his involvement in the Ukraine movement.

Earlier this week, he started tweeting these polls with peace plans that looked not dissimilar to Russian talking points. So, for example, suggesting that Crimea be a part of Russia, that Ukraine remain neutral. Fifty-plus percent of people said no, and millions of people voted on this, by the way, on Elon's opinion of what's happening in Russia and Ukraine. And then he modified and tried again with another proposal saying the will of the people of Donbass and Crimea should determine what they do in Ukraine. People also said no to that. So what's going on with Elon? Yeah.

He has never lived in a totalitarian regime, I guess, because, you know, these things are very complicated. And I called him Madam Secretary as a joke. But his base thing is, I don't like war. It's bad for business, essentially. Well, yeah, he's concerned about the economic impacts of this war.

I would agree. But in this case, Putin is a clear aggressor. And this is going to go on for a long time. It affects us all. And so then Lindsey Graham got involved, who's a very big supporter of Ukraine. And then he made a vague threat about how Congress might need to revisit the electric vehicle tax credit, which he called a boondoggle, and put the

money to the Ukrainians. I was like, why are you entering this? Why do you need to enter a vague, weird, senatorial threat? But the reason he's entering is we, you and I were talking about this last week, not on the show, but, you know, I was saying, why should we care about what Elon thinks about foreign policy issues? And you were saying, what does it matter? He can have an opinion. He can have any opinion he wants, right? That's right. And why do you think that?

Because he could. Everybody has an opinion. You know, he's not in any position to do anything. Lindsey Graham, on the other hand, who was in the Senate, very important figure in foreign relations. Why is he talking with Elon about it? The fact that Lindsey Graham is expending his attention on Elon is actually why it's a problem. Like, Elon is creating a distraction. Should Zelensky really be taking time out to respond to Elon? Should Elon... It was two seconds. I believe everyone's entitled to an opinion. I also believe that when you have a

platform, you should be thoughtful about what your expertise is in and what you can share your opinion about. I guess. Have you ever visited Twitter? I don't know. I have, Cara, but I don't opine on it a lot, you know, and I'm not opining on this despite having two degrees in international relations and being a member of the Council of Foreign Relations. What would be your opining? Then opine, please. Well, I'll opine on Elon. I won't opine on

Obviously, I think there are massive atrocities happening in Ukraine, and I believe that we need a very carefully thought out foreign policy around it, which I'm not going to come out with a four-point peace plan on a podcast about. Probably be better than either of these two men. But I'll spare you. But I think the interesting thing here is that

Elon is creating distraction. He is a source of information. And, you know, someone, Cara, you call out people for, you know, how much power they have. And I think you're a little bit nice to him on this. I think you're giving him a bit of a pass. I think people slap back at him plenty on this. He wrote, I'm a big fan of Ukraine, but not of World War III. And someone replied, I'm a big fan of Czechoslovakia, but not World War II. I thought that just took care of it. I'm sorry. I think Twitter takes care of it. I don't think it takes care of it. Look, Elon, you know, if you think you can help the world, that's great. You have the power to call people.

experts and get opinions. You can amplify a voice that has more expertise, but... I don't think he's talking to anybody. I don't think so either. What's super interesting to me is that the reason it's generated this much attention is because he's taken, as Elon often does, the contrarian and controversial position. Yes, that's what it is. Like his ha-ha boys, many of them are doing this. Mostly they want Joe Biden to screw up. Their whole goal is to

upset the apple cart. And so it's like someone who throws a tantrum or whatever, or a kid's doing something, you just ignore it. If it had actual impact, I certainly would speak up. In this case, people are laughing at him more than anything else, as they did Jared Kushner. And so, you know, but Jared Kushner actually was in there doing stuff. So that's, I'm interested in the idiots who are doing stuff on the inside. I would just say, I rarely would want to hear from Lindsey Graham over Elon. On foreign policy, I would rather hear from Lindsey Graham. We agree with...

Lindsey Graham. So let's move on to Biden, who's our second newsmaker. He's been progressive, dark Brandon. He's really trying to win over the progressive voters who probably are going to go to the polls anyways because of abortion. But he's become the progressive dank Brandon this week with his thousands of pardons for people who were convicted of marijuana possession under federal law.

Yeah, there's a lot going on here. I think he was probably working on this. This stuff doesn't just come out of thin air. You know, this is, it's a very small thing because the states have to really, a lot of the people imprisoned are via state systems. And he's pointing to an issue that's really just terrible in terms of the incarceration of people with minor disabilities.

drug issues and it definitely affects people of color more than others, even though everybody smokes pot at the same rates. When I was talking with my son on the way to school at seven this morning for basketball practice, he was like, "Why doesn't he just make pot legal?"

just give me a break, sir? And he was like, no. We have to tell Alex about incremental politics. That's what I said. It's politics. But, you know, I actually agree with him. But he's still in a bind. He's got four weeks left until the midterms. There's tons of economic pressure on him. The bigger pain point for Biden in his midterms is not pot.

But this broader OPEC decision, which is going to cut oil production by 2 million barrels a day, which will put pressure on gas pumps, how do you think it's going to hit him and the Democrats? I think it's good. And I think people really care about the economy. I think abortion is important, but it's not as important as...

inflation and the economy. And that's always the case. And so it's going to affect him. If these prices go up, home heating goes up, people will feel it. And a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. And this is not a hit they can take. It's bad for Biden. He was fist pumping Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia back in July. The Washington Post said the fist pump became a gut punch. Oh, that's a good take. I think it is actually really interesting in the foreign policy lens because all of a sudden,

Biden will face some pressure to cozy up to countries like Venezuela and Iran, you know, other petroleum producers who could be, you know, friendly here. And with Iran right now, that's highly problematic. Got the nuclear deal in negotiation. Authorities are cracking down on these protests. At least 76 people have died that we know of. We don't know enough.

because there's not enough information coming out. There's nobody in Iran. There's very few reporters there. Maybe Elon should tweet about this. I'm sure he will in a second. But I don't want his opinion on it. I just maybe want him to call attention to it. Well, I know you want to tell him what to do, but I have this feeling he's not going to listen to you. Not his mama.

Let him tweet as much as he wants. Yeah. One thing that's good, by the way, is that since Trump's gone, there's a lot more coverage of international stories. They could actually compete for above the fold. There's not the drama. I just don't think people care still in the United States. I think that'll be generational. We'll see. I think young people care more. All right. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to have the interview with Jon Fetterman.

Bye.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

Our guest today is Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, who's seeking a U.S. Senate seat this fall. We last spoke to him when he was on our previous show a couple years ago. Yes, absolutely. We were very early to him. He was very interesting during the COVID crisis, and he was known for schooling Trump in election math. Now he's the Democratic candidate for the Senate seat in Pennsylvania. It's an open seat. He was previously occupied by a Republican, of course,

He also suffered this massive stroke, which started when he was walking out of the bathroom at the Sheetz convenience store. And that's why I wanted to talk to him because I had one too. And I think the criticism he's getting by his opponent, Dr. Oz, is appalling. Making fun of him, mocking him, talking about eating his vegetables. Do you think that the reaction to the stroke is...

has been over exaggerated given your experience of a stroke? Yes, I'm perfectly fine. It's so astonishing how much has gone on since then, since I had a stroke in terms of treatment. And I really feel like to do attack someone who's undergoing a major health issue, who is fine and is recovering is really beyond the pale. And I know politics is tough, but this guy's a doctor and honestly, he should be censured.

I should note, because there is so much kind of scrutiny and speculation about Fetterman's medical condition, that we have made a different editorial decision in this interview than we usually do. We, and by we, I mean our wonderful team of producers and engineers, usually spend a lot of time tightening an episode, not just for length and clarity, but also kind of eliminating ums and yas and likes from stumbles and

In this episode, we've made an editorial choice not to do that. So it's not going to sound as clean as our episodes usually do. But we thought that was important given the speculation about his health. So we wanted to have you hear the lieutenant governor and Senate candidate as he sounded. And by the way, other people do a lot of ums and likes and stumbles. And so you're going to hear them from him. I was really quite impressed by how well he's doing. And you can judge yourself having done thousands of interviews before.

everybody has a problem with words, word salad, et cetera. You all cleaned me up, correct? We did clean you up, Cara, don't worry. But I suffered from that too. And I have to say, it clears itself up eventually, like he talked about, but he was very, I liked that he did this. Good for him. All right, here's the interview with John Fetterman. Oh, God.

John, it's been a while since we last spoke, about a year ago. A lot has happened, obviously, including having your stroke. How are you doing? Yeah, that's, you know, it actually a lot of changed since then. And certainly life has been changed dramatically after having a stroke in a lot of different ways, for sure.

I want to explain to start with what the auditory processing issues. It's not just a straightforward Zoom or Riverside or everything else. We are using Google Meets and closed captioning, but you sound terrific. And I also had a stroke and had similar issues. I was also born in Pennsylvania and wear sloppy clothes.

So I have some sense of what's going on with you. Talk a little bit about it because it's become an issue with Dr. Oz and we'll get to that in a minute. But my own mother who lives in Pennsylvania at dinner the other night said, John Fetterman shouldn't be sent her because he had a stroke. And I turned to her and I said, you know, mom, I had the exact same stroke. And she said, you're different. And I said, no, it's the exact same stroke. I've never been more successful or competent and everything like that. So I'd love you to talk about that for people. I know what it's like to go through what you're going through. Yes.

No, absolutely. And I've never had a conversation about a stroke with a fellow stroke survivor. And it always gets emotional and it just feels good to just kind of connect with somebody to understand what the experience is like, because I can't imagine I would have understood what it must have been like before it happened to me. So it really has allowed me to deepen my empathy and understanding

Even though I thought I was pretty epithetic before. But yeah, it definitely changes a lot of different basic things about life. Talk to me about your experience during it. My memory, and I'll start first, was...

I didn't realize I was having it until my brother told me I was having one because I had aphasia where my voice, my audit, I wasn't able to speak essentially. And everything I said was garbled and you're probably familiar with this. And I thought it was just a headache or something else because of travel. And my brother said, get to a hospital right away. You're having a stroke. I called him an idiot. He's a doctor. And when I got there, I,

That's exactly what was happening. And the first thing that went through my head and I wasn't upset, I was sort of handling it pretty well, is when I thought about my kids because my dad died of a cerebral hemorrhage and I was worried about lots of stuff around that. And it really was an emotional moment, the idea of losing your life or losing the ability to talk or other things. I'd love for you to talk about it. What was your experience in that regard? Yeah.

That's what happened was I was three, three or four days before the primary. So it was like after a really grueling primary and I was actually out of sheets and I was getting ready to get kind of get ready to go to an event in Millersville University.

And I walked out of the bathroom. I was going to the car. And my wife, Giselle, was kind of like the same to your brother in that situation. And she said, something's wrong. You're having a stroke. And I'm like, no, what are you talking about? That can't be, you know, no. And we got in the car.

And I started realizing that we weren't going to the event. We're going to the hospital. And I'm like, what are you doing? What are we doing? We got to go because I had this, I was really locked on the idea that we got to get to the, to the event. And we, I was basically, I was arguing in the middle of a stroke, you know, like, no, we got to go. We got to go to this. We got to get this done because I kind of had, you know, locked down on that. And, and,

I got to the hospital and thank God if that stroke would have happened at 11 at night or I was in a remote area, letting being 20 minutes away from, you know, the best stroke facility in Pennsylvania. That's the reason why I live. And then that hits you with the whole idea of

You know, I can't tell you how many times I've walked out of a Sheetz bathroom. The one time I did, it changed my life in the most profound way that I would rank all the way up with becoming married or becoming a father, you know, like after that. And life has never been the same since. So how do you perceive your health right now? I honestly...

I feel like my, my recovery has been miraculous to be honest. And I'm so grateful and I have nothing to complain about in terms of, you know, I feel great physically in terms of just living a normal life, uh, the way I have. And, uh, I have auditory processing and, and as you mentioned, I'm using captioning and I'm going to be using captioning, uh, you know, in the debate, uh,

And there are issues in terms of that, because especially when, you know, I'm being asked very specific questions, I have to count on captioning because I want to make sure I'm able to answer the kind of question. Right. And does that get better? Has that gotten better over time? Yeah, it gets better and better. And every day, sometimes I notice, oh, wow, that's different or things. But everything's been going in the same direction. And knock on wood, I haven't had a...

a day of, of backsliding. But the difference is, is that, um, I, I hope you didn't have your doctor in your life making fun of you or saying that, that, you know, you're not, you know, spit to, to do your job or anything, or there's somebody filming you, uh, counting how many words that you miss. Yeah. Unfortunately, sometimes I feel like it's working. I was pretty appalled having had that happen to me. In fact, um,

Meg Whitman actually said something that made me angry of all people, where she said, oh, you can talk. I thought you'd have to quit. I thought you'd have to do this. And I said, and I remember I gave a talk where I said, you know, everyone kept touching me and saying, are you OK? You need to stop being stressed.

And I said, I'm gonna be more stressed, I think, because I'm not gonna slow down because of this. And the fact that medicine around strokes has changed rather dramatically. Now, people have very severe strokes, obviously, but the recovery ability is really quite a lot. So let's talk about Dr. Oz. He and his allies have been attacking you for having the stroke. They suggested you lied about your recovery, that you had a stroke because you didn't eat your vegetables, and that you're unfit to serve in the Senate because of it.

Talk about this. I was gobsmacked that a doctor would do this. Yeah, I was too. I just...

of all the things that I was concerned about, you know, having three young children and realizing that I could have lost my life and just kind of being confronted with mortality in such a very dramatic way to have somebody, a doctor making fun of it and having that happen at a national stage is, is, yeah,

I don't know. And I started to realize that I just wanted to just connect with people on the campaign trail. And I asked people at events or at rallies, you know, who has ever had a health challenge in your life? And a lot of hands go up. And then when I add in, how about your parents? And then more hands go up. Or what about your grandparents? Or God forbid, your child. And then by the time, you know, two-thirds to three-quarters of the hands are up.

And I said, good. I'm so sorry that this happened. You know, I truly, I know what that feels like. And I really sincerely hope that you don't have a doctor in your life making fun of what happened to you, blaming you for what happened. And then saying that you are unable to work and you shouldn't. So,

So you have a debate coming up. Do you suspect Oz will use this to purposely try to trip you up? One doctor told me he could make you try to say, he's a cardiac thoracic surgeon. He knows, he understands this rather well. He could make you say uncommon words. I have no idea what to expect because my thoughts of what to expect after having the stroke has already happened. So I really don't know. I have no idea. It's normal to have one debate, right?

in October and that's exactly what was always the plan. But because he's been struggling in the race, he tried to turn this into an issue or anything. The fact is that for me to be able to have a debate, I need captioning. That's just the fact that I had a stroke.

And if you think it's funny or you think that means that I'm not fit to be a senator or work, it's just it's absurd. But no matter what, if there's an advantage to exploit, they're clearly going to. Yeah, here we are. Do you think the attacks are working? That narrative that you're unfit is translating to voters who themselves may have been sick. Do you think it works with people or on the campaign trailer, people appalled by this? It's a very big risk.

risky kind of bet that the Oz campaign, thinking that more voters like having a sick person be made fun of versus not. Your health is improving. You feel completely fit.

and your doctors have said this, do you think you should give more health information out or do you think you've given adequate health information? I mean, I've had my doctor release a letter and said that you're fit to serve. And that's a real doctor more than Dr. Oz is a real doctor. And my doctor and any doctor I've ever known would make fun of somebody and say that. So like I've released...

my medical information to be able to run and serve in this race. And going forward, you are doing treatment. For example, I'm about to get heart surgery to cover... I had a hole in my heart. That's a PFO, which is what caused my stroke.

or one of the, one of the factors, and I have very cloudy blood. That's my plan now because surgery has changed so drastically from when I had the stroke 10 years ago. You're just going to be medicated presumably for the rest of your life. Correct? Like I am too, that kind of thing. I assume I, uh, that I, that I will be. Um, and, uh, I, I think that, uh,

I feel normal if other than the fact that, again, those auditorial processing is different. In terms of physically, I've always been driving, walking miles every day, getting around, doing shopping, going with my kids, taking them to a party or their friend's house and all these things. Yeah.

The only difference would be the auditory processing and having, you know, Fox News and the Republicans making fun of it. That's the one difference. But the race is getting tighter. Most polls see Oz gaining on you. And one recent survey showed you just two percentage points apart, although another recent one showed six. How do you keep the significant lead you have had? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there is...

a difference somewhere between three and six points. I mean, just yesterday, there was a poll that came out that had us up six points, and it was a very reputable poll. And it's not so much that it's me losing support. It's that the Republicans are consolidating behind him. And that's what we all expected. And everyone understands that every

purple state, you know, that was a 50-50 in a presidential election, they're going to be mirrored in the Senate. And that's what's happening. And they dumped over $20 million over the last five weeks, you know, with all these lies and this kind of distortions.

And now Fox News, and I want to point out, and this is a statistic, had more attacks than every other Democratic candidate combined over the last five weeks, too. And certainly they've inflicted a lot of damage.

in terms of the attack. But not only did we, you know, survive, we're actually winning. And I think it's a testament to how Pennsylvania knows and understands me. Why do you believe so many people support him? Is it just consolidation behind Republicans?

The truth is, is the actual numbers, you know, anywhere between 51 to 53 percent of voters dislike him. So it's really simply like it's an R and you're going to just show up regardless. They may not they might be excited about it, but but it's like you have two choices and I'm going to go with the R. Right. And that's that's the reality. It's not it's never going to be a kind of I've I've you know.

I've waited my whole life to vote for somebody like this. It's more just like, well, you know, it's a Republican. You know, this is what I have to do. Is there a thing that you like about him? Is there anything that you can point to? I...

I don't know. I don't know enough about him other than him making fun of me nearly dying or him. I don't know. You don't have to like him. You don't have to like him. No, it's not that. You know, I understand sometimes things aren't personal or whatever, but, you know, like...

As I said before, if if me making fun of a father with three young kids that that almost died is required for me to to to win, then I would not I would never do that. So, yeah. All right. One thing that people like about you is your image sort of as a blue collar tough guy. Republicans are also attacking you, saying you grew up in a cushy environment. You have a Harvard degree. You got money from your parents.

Considering that the Carhartt vibe isn't exactly where you grew up, where did that come from? I did grow up in Pennsylvania. I dress the way I've always dressed this way. And we don't come from, you know, the kind of wealth that you talk about having 10 gigantic mansions or having that kind of a thing. You know, like I was an unplanned pregnancy, you know, to a 19 year old, you know, and he worked in a grocery store while he worked through college.

So he was successful enough to have some kind of financial security, but certainly not when you're talking about that kind of wealth. And I took on to be a mayor of a community, and that's how I've made my life. So it just...

It's just strange. So last time we talked, I talked about your social media game, which I said was nowhere as good as your wife's. I have to say it's improved since. So I want to do a lightning round on some of the ad spots you've put out, which have gotten very popular on social media. Let's go over some of the hits, starting with your viral response to that Dr. Oz video where he's out shopping at a Radner's, which he calls Wegner's, which he's combining with Wegman's, which means he might have a neurological problem we need to discuss.

All of it in Pennsylvania. The clip starts off with Oz's shopping adventures before you cut in. I thought it was a grocery shopping. I'm at Wagner's and my wife wants some vegetables for crudite, right? So here's a broccoli. That's two bucks. Not a ton of broccoli there. There's some asparagus. That's four dollars. In PA, we call this a veggie tray. And if this looks anything other than a veggie tray to you, then I am not your candidate.

For those who don't know, what are you, why are you talking about veggie trays? It wasn't attacking or whatever. It's just kind of, you know, tweaking some of that. And this wasn't a video that I filmed undercover or anything. He put out a video. It kind of got picked up and it was simply just, it's like,

I never heard the word crudite before. In fact, I thought it was like it was a stroke kind of a situation where I'm like, am I not understanding something? You know, what am I missing here? And then I had to Google what a crudite was because I'd never heard it in my life. And then it was like, wait a minute. So if that's what he's trying to do, it's like it's a veggie tray. Yeah. OK. Then there's the video with Snooki from the Jersey Shore pointing out Oz lives in New Jersey, not Pennsylvania.

Hey, Maymatt. This is Nicole Snooki, and I'm from Jersey Shore. I don't know if you've seen a bit before, but I'm a hot mess on a reality show, basically, and I enjoy life. But I heard that you moved from New Jersey to Pennsylvania to look for a new job. And personally,

Why did you pick Snooki? I think it's a matter of like a cultural kind of icon, you know, with Jersey. And it was just an opportunity to have fun, but not be mean or to be nasty or personal about it. And that's all it is. And it really was rooted in how absurd this is, because I was never aware that somebody that lived in a different state running,

for the Senate of a different state. I've never, I'm not aware of that. And, you know, talking about how it's hard to fight for a state if you have never lived there and understand, you know, what life is like there. And just asking people,

You know, do you think somebody can really connect with somebody, you know, that's lived this kind of life versus the kind of life that you're living? Right. OK, finally, the new clip comparing Oz with Dr. Nick from The Simpsons. I thought this was quite good.

Hi, everybody. Hey, everybody. With my diet, you can eat all you want, anytime you want. And you'll lose weight? You might. It's a free country. I've got the number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat. Lose fat without diet or exercise? Stubborn stomach fat instantly disappears.

We definitely get the point on that one, that Oz is a quack by pulling in The Simpsons. You're bringing in Disney, which, of course, is trying to avoid politics. Talk about that. And have you gotten any pushback from Disney? No. The truth is, is that I thought about, you know, think of the absurdity. And I was a whole life fan.

fan of Simpsons. And I was like, well, what about Dr. Nick? You know, Dr. Nick was an example of absurdity and like something that this can't possibly be real. Right. And then you realize that the perfect parallel between that and, you know, what Dr. Nick said and what Dr. Oz says is

And I think that's why people all connect with that. And they all understand the absurdity of it all. So let's talk about the connection, this social media strategy. Do you think this is the type of social media strategy that's needed to win a campaign these days? It's certainly, I think it's a good thing. And I think it's our ability to,

let people understand who you're running against too. And it's never been in a place that is nasty or mean. It's all been just basic things. It wasn't about me saying terrible things or lying about things or anything like that, or making fun of if you had a health condition or something. It's just, you know, here is a picture of you or here is a clip of you saying or doing something and just, you know, putting it right out there.

So you're certainly amusing people, but are you changing minds or talking into an echo chamber? Are you worried about that being too reductive? I think it is about running a campaign on all the different things that are all important when you're having a very close race. And in terms of the truth of Dr. Oz, you know, it's already been clear that that's why more a majority of Pennsylvania voters dislike him.

So I think every vote matters and everything counts. And we're doing all things that are important issues and doing it in a way that often can be viral and spreads things at no cost to us. And it allows people to consider it. But, yeah, if somebody – I mean, things are very –

very partisan now. There's things that you don't or you have no problem, you know, if it's if it's, you know, your team that says that, you know, if I live in New Jersey, you know, the Republicans would be outraged like this is outrageous. This is crazy how, you know, you're unfit to whatever. So so it's like it's so disingenuous. But as his audience or TV watchers, maybe maybe on Twitter, but not the primary ones. How do

you sway those people? Are you aiming at those people to reveal these truths to them? Do you think you reach them in that regard? Or what's a better way to read? Would you go on Fox News, for example? We've been on television the entire time and we're running a, you know, it's very controversial. Excuse me, there's nothing controversial about what our commercials, they've all been very strong. And the fact that, you know, here we are that, you know, it

into October and we still are up in polls despite an onslaught that's happening. So I think the way our campaign has been managed and run is, I think it's incredibly strong, you know, and it's a testament to the kind of money that we've raised.

and the way that the polls have held up. Another thing about this social campaign is that it's expensive. The Financial Times says you're spending at least $12 million on communications and consultants alone while Pennsylvanians are dealing with record inflation along with the rest of the country. Have you focused enough on the economy and what you're going to do about it? I feel like we have. And, you know, I think we've run a very smart campaign and I'm

at this point, I think it's reflected on our polling and the kind of campaign that we've run. Should you talk more about the inflation in the economy? I think we have. We do speak about it. And we do also acknowledge that Dr. Oz doesn't really understand what inflation is. He doesn't experience inflation. He doesn't even know how to shop. You know, that's been clear. And I think he...

has no plan. So, so it's, yeah, it's, it's just, you know, there, there's no solution there. And we believe that we need to make more things in America and, and we need to stand up against corporate greed. And we believe that, you know, we have to raise our minimum wage and, you know, just basic economical kinds of common sense arguments.

So you've, one of the things you've taken heat for there, they're aiming at you is wanting to give a second chance to people convicted of serious crimes, including murder. Is there a type of person in jail today who doesn't deserve a second chance in your eyes? This is again, something my mom mentioned. She's like, he's hiring murderers. And I was like, is he like, I, it was, it was really an interesting, it seems to have hit with her. At least he's my little focus group, but what talk about that issue and where they're hitting you with that. All right.

Now, again, in the case of those individuals, the Horton brothers that I hired, you know, actually are innocent. In fact, their story, they actually won an Emmy on that. And they were in prison for 30 years for something that they didn't did this time.

was a process that exists in Pennsylvania. And it's basically the kind of cases where they are unanimously supported to be given an opportunity. They had perfect records. They've been in prison for 40, 45, 50 years or more.

And the warden agrees. The secretary of corrections agrees. And everybody from the prison guards all the way on up agrees. And I would just ask anyone, your mother or anyone, it's like, have you seen the Shawshank Redemption? Because almost everybody has. And it's like, would you vote to give Morgan Freeman a chance or not?

And and I have never met any single person that says, yes, he should die in prison. Right. I think we all think Morgan Friedman should get out of jail. But but let me push back on this a little bit. Crime is a real issue with people now. It seems to be resonating. How do you how do you address that? Is it an effective attack on you?

I already knew that, that standing in and, and leaning into like helping innocent people get out of prison. I knew that I was going to be weaponized against me. And that was a choice that I made. And that's exactly what was, it was happening. And it would be allowing me to turn the back and say, you know, uh, it's okay if you're going to die in prison because I'm afraid of the attack ads. Um, and I would never trade, uh,

for a title against my conscience. And that's really what this is all about. It was, it was about, uh, it was about confronting the truth of these kinds of situations. And it was, it was a choice that I made to, to be on the right side of, I think is, is really, uh,

the decent thing, an important thing. Absolutely. In this case, but do you have a plan on crime? Are you aware of people's worries about this? Do you think you need to address it? Yeah, absolutely. I actually was successful in confronting crime as mayor of Braddock, a community for four terms had five,

of a significant gun violence issue. And I stopped it for five and a half years, five and a half years. It had never happened before or after I become mayor. And I worked with the police and I worked with the community and that was a successful and that was a reality. And Dr. Oz has never fought against crime. Dr. Oz doesn't understand what that crime is like, certainly not gunfire and those kinds of things. And that's what I was successful in doing that throughout my career as mayor.

I want to talk about the role of Trump in this election. Oz was endorsed by the former president and campaigned with him. Then he dropped the Trump endorsement from his campaign over the summer. What do you think the role of Trump in this race is? Of course, when you win by 900 votes, of course, that had an impact. And of course, you know, Trump is popular in Pennsylvania. And, you know, I don't know any genuine kind of MAGA campaign.

that really believes that Oz, you know, believes anything because nobody knows what kind of his core is. In fact, I saw in a poll, 71% of voters all think that he says whatever he thinks can help himself. So I don't think there's any true believer in terms of that. But there certainly are plenty of voters that say, I'll do what Trump says or who he endorses, of course. Okay.

Can these races escape Trump's shadow or is it just or these are people who just aren't going to even consider you? Well, of course, you know, Trump is going to be a factor in any election, you know, currently right now. I mean, that's that's the reality for good or bad. I want to get your take on some other big political players or factoring the race. The first one is Republican who recently came around on Oz, Mitch McConnell. He's fighting Trumpism very lightly, but not in Pennsylvania. Why?

I don't really have a thought other than that, you know, he spent $20 million to try to take, to take us down and we've been able to stand against it and hold up against it and actually still remain up on top. Just for clarity, that's through the super PAC aligned with McConnell called the Senate Leadership Fund. So, uh, definitely, uh,

He's a factor simply because he has a big pile of money. So what about the impact of billionaires like Peter Thiel? It went on a more national level, pouring their money into Senate races like in Arizona and Ohio nearby. I believe that that that money is a cancer in American politics, politics, politics, politics.

And we have to make sure that getting it out is if you if you want a better system, getting money out of it would make it be all better off because you simply can buy things as a billionaire, which, you know, I think it should be returned to a one vote is fine.

equal to one vote as opposed to, you know, one person might have a vote, but they also might have a billion dollars can have a mat, a major kind of impact. So, so to the Democrats now, should Joe Biden run again in 2024? I think that should be a decision made by Joe bin. And, and that's, it's not a matter, uh, anyone's choice other than his. And, and I respect whatever choice he decides. Do you think he can beat Trump? Will the issues of his age come up? And is that fair? Uh,

Yeah, he already beat Trump. And I think he I think he would. All right. But when you think of the overall Democratic Party, you've been a little different. I think people are looking at you as a different style of Democrat. Who do you admire as the next faces of the Democratic Party beyond Biden, especially if the GOP nominee is Trump? I don't think about about that. I don't. I'm just.

Just myself. I don't give anyone advice. I don't think, you know, it should be emulated. All I am is just a guy running, you know, on his truths, running a race that I believe is the best way to run. And I've always run on truths. And I think that's...

this isn't about me giving advice or anything. I don't have hot takes on this. I don't criticize other Democrats or say you should think this way or you should believe that way or whatever. I'm only running my own race. When we last spoke in 2020, you told me you didn't have any plans to run for higher office, which obviously wasn't true as you're now running for Senate. So I'm going to ask you this right now, and please don't fib to me this time. Will you one day run for president? Oh, my God, no. I mean, like, no, like,

You said the same thing about it. I wasn't fibbing before. I didn't know what it was going to look like in 2020 or anything. So, no, I have a race in front of me, and that's all I'm focusing on. And honestly, let me just – and I promise you this, that, you know –

Having three children and nearly dying, I don't have anything to fib about because, you know, I have a kind of confronted very big decision. So but no, I'm only here running to run the race that I'm in front of the Senate. OK, my last question always asks for a piece of advice from my guest.

You just said you don't give advice, but I want you to advise President Biden. What is the one thing you think he needs to focus on going forward? Honestly, I don't have any advice. Here's a man that already won

And and he has done some I think some some good things during his his term. Again, as I just said before, I don't I don't give anyone's advice. I only run my own races and and only. Well, actually, that's true. I I advise that my kids do their homework or they clean their rooms or whatever. But I don't give in in the the advice kind of of game.

Do you have any advice for Dr. Oz? Again, no, because one, that would be kind of pointless because he would never take that advice. And it's his story and he needs to tell it the way he needs to. And he's done that. And just you should own the kinds of sentiments and the kinds of words that are swirling around him. And if believing that you have to make fun of a stroke patient to win, then again, it's your story. It's the way you need to tell it.

All right, John, thank you so much. And I do hope your health continues to improve. I really do have great empathy. I know what it's like. All right. Thank you very much.

So he was actually, he was moving super fast with you. Yeah, he was. I was trying to keep it fast and obviously listening to it. He had a few assembled words, but so did I. And I thought he was very articulate. You could see that he thinks just fine on his feet. You know, obviously I had the same auditory processing issues that did go away eventually where I needed some help to understand or not hearing people, right? But he certainly seems well-behaved.

He looks very healthy, much healthier than the last time I interviewed him. I'm not a doctor obviously, and neither is Dr. Oz in this case. And so I thought he answered the questions. I think he's pretty pissed about what this guy's doing. And I think he has a right to be. And I don't think it's just a campaign talking point. It's pretty appalling that a doctor would make fun of someone who is trying to recover from a very significant medical issue. And it's working. The fact that it's working is even worse. But it's completely unsurprising. I think it's very earnest to say that it's a surprising fact.

No. We know who Dr. Oz is. And this is a campaign. Everything gets weaponized in a campaign. Very few people do this. Trump is the one who's introduced it, certainly by making fun of reporters or people's physical issues or anything like that. This guy's a doctor. It's not. It's very different. It's very different. And in this case, especially because he's a doctor, he shouldn't just be ashamed himself. He should be censured. I wouldn't know what to do if a doctor censured.

talk to me this way. I'll be very curious to see because the polls are definitely tightening. Well, there's a lot of money. He's right. There's a lot of money. It's really amazing how fear-mongering around health works so well. And it's sad. It's sad. It's really sad. And then there's just basic name recognition, which as much as, you know, Fetterman has made a name in the last couple of years, he was relative unknown quantity till then. And

Oz has decades of making his name and people feeling that they trust him, although, you know, albeit lots of evidence to the contrary. Well, let me just be clear about this. I was talking about my mom a lot who really did pick on the stroke issue, which was ironic given I had one, although that's how much it works. That said, she couldn't say enough bad things about Dr. Oz. The likability is so low and the...

wanting to vote for him? Not at all. The R is why she might vote for him, but boy, she doesn't like him. She really doesn't. It was really interesting. Okay. John Fetterman refused to give anyone advice this week except for his kids, which obviously he's in a good position to do, although his kids will probably not take his advice, I will say. Who is your unsolicited advice for this week, Kara? Yeah.

Well, it's everybody. I want to call attention to the 11th anniversary of the death of Steve Jobs. Doing this interview made me think about it a lot because he also had a lot of health scares and ultimately died from pancreatic cancer. And one of the things I think about is how he kept moving forward. And one thing that people don't realize is he created some of the most important innovations that you are all using today when he was dying.

of cancer and he kept pushing forward, he did not look back. In the very last interview I did with him, he talked about reforming television. This was months, you know, he looked very sick, very frail and he still was pushing forward. And, you know, he talked about death quite a bit in his...

and especially after he got sick, and he was constantly aware of mortality. And I think it's really important to think about people that have had brushes with death, like John and myself, and my own dad died when he was 34, understand how...

It is important to push forward and I really find it really terrible when people assume things are over when they're not over. They certainly weren't over for Steve Jobs. I don't think they're over for John Fetterman. And anyone who says different really has a huge problem and should probably read a little more Steve Jobs. That's very good advice, Cara. You're welcome. Thank you.

Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Blakeney Schick, Christian Castro-Rossell, Raffaella Seward, and Cody Nelson. Christopher Schertleff and Fernando Arruda engineered this episode. If you're already following the show, fantastic. If not, why are you living under a rock? Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. By the way, we're beating all the right-wing podcasters.

We need to keep topping Ben Shapiro, which is my which is one of the things that makes me happy anyway. So keep letting us do that. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, Vox Media and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.