The Daily Show’s Josh Johnson Can Make Even A Recession Funny
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But if you're really smart, you know him from social media where he's really built up his following and has been blowing up of late. Josh has over a million followers on Instagram, over one and a half million subscribers on YouTube, and two million followers on TikTok. And he's incredibly prolific. He's built a following by regularly posting bits of his stand-up routines, which are long philosophical journeys,

where he connects news, politics, and pop culture to everyday struggles. I think he's just a real treasure and someone who is incredibly thoughtful. And one of the best parts of it is I was introduced to him by my son, Louie, who's 20 years old, who's been listening to him for a long time and really enjoys his really thoughtful takes on lots of things. And I think that's a good sign for our youth.

Josh is currently on tour around the country, the Flowers Tour. I spoke to him on Monday in between gigs at a live event at the Great Hall of the Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art. Cooper,

Cooper is a private college in New York City offering degrees in architecture, art, and engineering, and the Great Hall has been the site of civic discourse and free public programming since 1859. Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, and Barack Obama have spoken here, and now me and Josh Johnson. I also gave a commencement address for Cooper Union a couple of years ago, and it was fantastic.

And in this one, it was equally so. We had a packed house at a really wonderful venue. So that's pretty cool. Our question this week comes from fellow comedian Mike Birbiglia, who's an overachiever and did several questions for us. And we used two of them here. He's become a friend of mine, but more importantly, has an astonishing special coming out on Netflix in May called The Good Life, which he's been working on. He's also interviewed Josh. I think you'll really like this interview. It is fun and it is also surprisingly poignant.

So get ready to listen.

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Josh Johnson, thanks for joining us for a live recording of On with Kara Swisher here at the Cooper Union in New York.

So I have a really busy schedule, but you have an insane schedule. You just came here tonight from The Daily Show, where you've been a correspondent for about a year. And you were also on tour. You've been touring around the country. This Friday and Saturday, you perform in Oklahoma. Last night, you were in Dallas. Next week, and you're back in Texas. This has been going on for a while. Talk a little bit about how you're conducting your life right now as a comic. What is it like to be a comic at this moment?

Okay, I mean, I don't really I guess I don't sleep that much Yeah, but also there was there was so long where I would go places and nobody cared And so it's nice to now have people want me to go wherever I'm going So where was the worst place where nobody cared? I had a book event where two people showed up. So I took them out to dinner, but Okay Yeah

So you're saying the worst place where nobody cared? Yeah. I did do a show in Mobile, Alabama that if they cared, they would have come. Yeah.

And it was raining when I got there. And one of the producers was like, I think we're going to get some more people coming in. I was like, I don't think we will. I think that the rain doesn't necessarily bring the people out. I think whoever is in here now is who we have. Right. And there was one person that wandered in and was very confused why I was talking. Was like, clearly just came in for a drink and was like, oh no.

No So you're doing a lot of I want to sort of differentiate between online and I guess offline a real life But because you're one of those prolific comics on social media at the moment you released 60 YouTube videos last year you post Nearly hour-long sets on YouTube weekly, which what you're doing. You're getting millions of views they're all very different a lot of current news and pop culture moments and

Talk a little bit about that and how you think about the differentiation between, say, being in Texas and here or somewhere else. Well, first of all, I do talk a lot. So that's how we got the numbers. That's how we got to the 60 videos is that I could go on forever. If y'all feel like living here, we can. Yeah.

But I think that every place that you go to you know Whether you're in like Austin, Texas or Oklahoma City or something are gonna have their their general breakdowns of demographics and all the things that we use to look at a place and try to decide what it is try to put people and a place in a specific box, you know, is it red? Is it blue purple? Is it mostly black white? Is it like does it have a hood? Is it the boonies all that stuff? but I think that

For the most part, if you can accept that those demographics are there, but still sort of approach it with the hope of being universal, I think you can...

get to some really interesting work. I think that it is possible to create a through line that people who have very different experiences that will not converge can still understand the thing that you're talking about. And so that's my goal whenever I go to a place is to not necessarily

switch up everything that I'm doing because of where I am, but sometimes where I am aids the thing that I'm trying to speak to. How do you pick things? Because you do different things. I was looking at you, you do these longer ones that shift between a number of things. You were talking about a fight and then you were talking about Elon Musk and then you were talking about AI. We'll get to Elon in a second because he's super funny as everybody knows.

But when then you did this very, you do a lot of short ones, which I like a lot where, you know, you did one on Mark Zuckerberg's outfit, which I loved. Thank you for doing that. As much as I enjoy Jimmy Kimmel calling him looking like a Molly dealer from Chechnya. I love the idea that he's in the middle of the first cross-racial midlife crisis, which I thought was beautiful. It was sort of a beautiful thing. When you,

How do you pick it up and decide what to do now? Like, was there a news story, for example, that popped up today that you might integrate into your scan up? I was just thinking, I was just on the way here. I was on a train here from DC. And one of the things that I thought was interesting was this idea that the tariffs are manly, that they're manly tariffs. And it's on, I know it's going to surprise you, but it's on Fox News right now.

Trump terrorists will make you a man. That's Jesse Waters. Trump's manly tariffs. Pundit believes it could reverse the crisis in masculinity, for example. Sure, sure. So... It's a penis.

Yeah. The way that I look at it, I suppose, if I was going to add it to the set, right? That like they're saying that this is manly. I do think that it is manly in the way that like my dad would try to fix the sink and he's not a plumber. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So like...

We own the tools because you can buy tools. Don't just let anybody have the tools. They don't ask you if you're going to tear up your house at all. They'll let you buy the hammer, the screwdriver. They'll let you buy like the hatchet. It might as well be an automatic weapon if you don't know what you're doing with an electric screw. And so then you bring it home and in your head as a man, you're like, I have the tools. Mm hmm.

Like, I do have them. So if anything happens, I'm at least halfway there. Never mind the other half is like knowledge. And so then...

So then there's like a leaky faucet. And so you're like, okay, go time. This is what we bought all the stuff at the hardware store for. And so you get under the sink, you move all the Lysol, all the stuff out of the way. And then you're under there and it's very uncomfortable. You're like, wow, I can't believe that there are people that do this without complaining. And then you're trying to figure out, you know, you've got your light because you don't have a light like you should.

because you're not an actual plumber. So you've got your cell phone light up, pointed at the faucet with your legs hanging out of the cabinet. And you're looking up and you're letting the water hit you on the forehead.

Because you're like, I just want to make sure the leak is real, right? And so it's hitting you on the forehead. And then you're like, all right, time for tools. And so you take your screwdriver and you're like, I don't know where this one, I don't know if this one will help. Well, you're not actually supposed to use a screwdriver there. Yeah, yeah. As a lesbian, I know exactly what to do. Yeah, yeah.

And so then the way that that thought process goes of like, I'm a man. A man is supposed to fix these things. I have the tools. The tools are right here. You know, a tariff is a tool. It's not as if tariffs were invented this past week or anything. No. And obviously, you know...

When Trump was running, he was running on strength. You saw dudes that were voting for Trump talk about how we need strength right now and everything. He's a man, he has a tool. Let's just fix the thing. And the only thing he's missing is knowledge on how the thing works. - Right. - And that does mean that the house we're in is gonna leak very badly for a long time. - There you go.

Right, exactly. So making jokes about this craziness. Now, you do man-in-the-street bits as a correspondent on The Daily Show, which are fantastic. Have you noticed any change in reactions over the last few months? Have you been out lately since the stock market took a massive dive? No, I've only talked to people that I know since the stock market started.

I don't even know what you would call it. Crashed. Besides a crash. Crashed is what you're looking for. I was trying to find a different word, like a synonym, and then crash is just the most appropriate. But basically, ever since it really kicked off, so like that first day with the Dow, with like the 1,200 points and everything, everyone that I know was concerned in the way that you...

They were concerned in the way that you get concerned when you're like in an Uber and you see that the light has turned, but they're still looking at the directions. And so you're like, all right, are we about to crash? Yeah. You know what I mean? All the time. And then the more I talk to people, the more that they were like, no, I think we've actually already been in the car accident. And we're doing that thing where you blink a lot because you can't hear anything because you're like, dooo.

And so I think that I have not had the chance yet to do like a man on the street since it happened, but every person that I've talked to has had, and across the aisle as well. It's like I still have friends from back home in Louisiana that vote Republican every time and everything that have very similar concerns to the people that I know here. And I think that sometimes these people

connections get made where people who are maybe diametrically opposed isn't the right way of phrasing it, but like people who are so at opposite ends of the spectrum have one sticking point of common ground for even a moment. And then speaking to that is what I would try to do, whether it's a man on the street or just stand up. So what would be right now are people in places like Oklahoma getting...

Wary of Elon or what Trump is doing or the cuts in government? Well, I it I think that there is a There is a hesitance that I'm seeing in real people that doesn't seem to exist online as much the thing about Being online is that it doesn't tell you how everyone is feeling and neither can being in person But it does tell you

the most extreme version of what a person thinks. If you don't have to be in person saying the thing, you'll say whatever, right? Like I'm pretty tough behind a keyboard. Yeah. And how dare you? Yeah. How dare you?

But you do see people online saying things that are like, well, this is good. This is the manly thing. This is like going to make men men again because we're going to have to work so hard to eat nothing that we will be like men again. Remember like our grandparents who were men back when men were men? You know, the men that died young. Those men. We should be more like those men who got things like, I don't know, like tetanus from...

Not having the shot or having the shot and not wanting to take it. Yeah, yeah. So we're really, I don't know. I used to truly believe, and I'm not trying to not answer the question. You just reminded me of something. I truly used to believe that with enough opportunity, education, and resources, we would all be like that meme. You know that meme that people make where they're like, oh, if this thing never happened, and it's like a futuristic utopia? Mm-hmm.

And there's like flying cars and stuff like that. I used to believe that like with enough of everything, we would get there. And now I'm not totally sure that's the case because...

We do have stuff and we're like, nah, I'd rather it be like the 1800s. Yes. That looked dope. So I'd rather that as I sit on my iPhone, I'd rather that back when men were men and those men wrote about how bad life was. Yeah, so like measles, let's do it again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think though that,

A lot of different connection points are getting made in how people are reacting to things. And I think it's obviously, it's very difficult. It's really hard if you spent a year and a half

sort of sounding the alarm that things like this would happen and then no one cared or people laughed in your face and then they do start happening and then all of a sudden people care or They stop laughing or they still try laughing your face while they're actively hurting and I think that like there I don't ask anyone to To like live life as I see fit, but I do think that for some people there's a

point where their empathy sort of ends and they get on this sort of like Nihilistic doom rollercoaster where they're like, well good. Let's go ahead Let's burn all down just so you can suffer just so you can learn your lesson. Let's eat your face The leopards eat your face and it's like this is the thing about that I totally understand where that logic comes from I also very much understand like that feeling like that. That's a very human thing We all have it for each other sometimes

Like, and it could be politics. It could be you telling someone not to date someone. You know what I mean? Like it could be, it could be anything. But the problem with like the leopards eating face party is that the satisfaction you get from watching the person that voted for the leopards to eat faces, eat their face, is negating the fact that your face is also being eaten. Like at the same time, that's the whole reason you didn't want the leopard face party. Cause you were like, I like my face. Right. Right.

And so I think that... I had that feeling when Bill Ackman, who's been on the DEA brigade, because he's a world's expert on that. I was thinking, he does like 96...

tweets about DEI. I did read one of them and it was long. It was long. Yeah. And I'm like, this is not the purpose of Twitter, but fine. So I was going to do a 96-part series on hedge fund investing, about which I know nothing, so that I could compete with him. But he's very upset about the tariffs. Oh, no. He's very upset. Now he's upset. Now he's upset. And he also does not have an editor. I've never seen...

I didn't know you were allowed to do it that long. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, they don't make him any money. He's working on a book. Yes, he is. I want to talk a little bit about how you got here because you're originally, as you noted, from Louisiana. You studied lighting, theater lighting? I did. Yeah. Why? Um...

Well, I was looking for something. I've always loved theater, and I wasn't a performer in that way. I wasn't an actor or anything, but I was really engaged with everything that the theater department was doing, and so I decided, I started off as this communications major because I thought that I was going to write films, and I thought that

was the best route to when I'm not writing films, I could be working on something else and I can just learn that general world of media. And then I just...

found myself so passionate about theater and the productions that the department was doing that I thought lighting design and the way that it's like subtle but incredibly necessary was something really interesting. And so I graduated with a degree with that as my

My main focus. But did you want to get on the stage? And then just said, oh, I'll do lighting design because I'm, you know... It's almost like one of those movies where the lighting designer turns out to be the beautiful girl. You know, in a sense. But basically, after I graduated, I just... I did it for maybe...

three, four months after I graduated locally with a lot of productions and stuff. And then I knew I was going to move to Chicago. And when I moved to Chicago, I had also started doing like a couple open mic nights and stuff like that. I've always had a real passion for comedy, even more so than design, even more so than theater. But you hadn't done it before, correct? I hadn't really done it. I had done like my college's like... What prompted you to get on the stage to do that?

You know, I talk a lot and I was like, this is at least a forum where I'm supposed to, you know? And so I couldn't tell you honestly from that very first time what made me do it, but I know when I moved to Chicago. What was your first joke? Oh, geez. I don't know what it was, but I know it was bad. I don't remember it well. Do you know what it was about?

There's a piece of the set that I remember because I did a few jokes. So I don't remember what the first one was, but I had this one joke about how my family got a new alarm system. I like said the neighborhood that we lived in and everything. And then that someone tried to break in and we found the alarm system works perfectly because the cop showed up two days later. And that was...

That was in there. Slow burn here. Yeah. I think I remember that one because people actually reacted to that one. I feel like the other ones were duds. Yeah, you had a good joke about being in a fight neighborhood. You live in a fight when you had your fight. I've only lived in fight neighborhoods. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I feel like I also sometimes will...

jokes by like a different thing than what is the memorable part of the joke. And so... The joke itself, you mean? Yeah, exactly. Right. It's getting there. No, your discursiveness is really interesting because you wander all over the place. I do. Yeah, I like it. It's part of talking a lot.

Yeah, yeah. It reminds me of you. You must study a lot. That's what I was noticing. On a lot of your tech stuff, you went out and learned it. As best I could, yeah. I mean, if anything, that's what gives me... If I decide to do a set about something or someone, and then in trying to find background on it, I'm realizing how little I understand about the subject, that's what gives me at least more respect and...

in how I talk about it, just because I know, even if the audience doesn't know, I know that I didn't, when I read it, I didn't understand it. Right. You were talking about terrorists backstage, about the formula. Yeah, I was talking about the terrorists and I was like, I'm reading things that I'm just trying to make sure all of it is true because so far it's been very dumb. Mm-hmm.

And I just want to make sure it's as dumb as I think it is before I talk about how dumb it is. Because in case I'm wrong, I'm like not helping. I'm just making it seem...

It's dumb. Yeah, okay, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, yeah, you were asking, he was asking if Chad GPT gave Trump the formula. Yeah, and I heard that, and I was like, no lie, I don't like Trump at all, but I need that one to not be true. Let me go ahead and look up like 14 sources to make sure that that's what happened. Because I know that they got their own formula wrong. Yeah. And that was also like, as someone who's never been great,

At math in class, right? I understand exactly where they were coming from messing up their own formula Yeah, but no one's ever depended on me, right? Do you know what I mean? Like like I never came home with a c in math and my mom was like that's it. We selling everything this is We were looking to you and you botched it. We'll be back in a minute

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Based on latest competitive data, the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees, and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price. When you were getting, when you were sort of preparing and going on stage from being, doing lighting, you jumped on stage and took the mic. Did you have people you looked up to that influenced your comic? I mean, everyone sort of asked that question. Was it Jimmy Fallon, Trevor Noah, Jon Stewart? Were there, was there anybody you were copying? Yeah.

I don't think so, because I feel like what I was doing... I definitely had heroes, especially, but I think that one of the reasons it was what felt like difficult for me to find my footing in stand-up for a little while was that the way that I wanted to do it was not something that I really saw a lot of. I saw pieces of it in other people, I suppose. Like...

I really appreciate the way that

This may not even make sense, so feel free to stop. I shall. Okay. But I appreciate the way that Carlin had almost like a timeless tense to him because he could have. Yeah, George Carlin, he could have talked about one specific politician, one specific moment in time, one specific story. But the takeaway, even when he did do those things, was that this thing is applicable for the rest of time as long as this injustice persists. It's true, he holds up.

Yeah. And so I feel like even though I talk about things topically, I think that if you let all that stuff sort of

pass away, you edit it out of the set. There is an attempt I'm making to talk about a larger thing that, who knows? I don't get to decide and I won't be around for if it holds up. Actually, your comedy, I would say, is philosophical. Let me give you an example from a set you posted. It's funny, but it's also very poignant. I'm going to read some of the lines you sprinkle through this 42 minutes and I don't think...

I'm very good at this, so I'm just going to do it. The only way forward is with other people. Your future is your neighbor. Lay down trust at the feet of people you don't know. If there's a community you want around you, all you have to do is be its founder. It's so much more likely you're going to build a community than you're going to become a billionaire. There's a lot going on there that is this eternal thing that you're talking about, these bigger ideas. Yeah, yeah. I mean, oof, oof. I...

Definitely didn't have any jokes in that. No. I pulled them out just for you. I hope the actual set made people laugh. I made them unfunny on purpose. The stuff from before. Okay. Got to work on some tags. But yeah, no, I think that those are my attempts to...

take it away from just one specific thing. I understand that it is incredibly scary and disheartening to see this sort of like, whatever you want to call it, Trump America or anything. But Trump is a symptom of a larger issue and those issues will exist long after he's gone, long after I'm gone because they're the issues that people make. And I think that there are attitudes that get us back to places that we've been before where it already didn't work out for us.

We've seen, it's like some of the worst parts of history seem like they're going to repeat, but we already know. We've already sort of learned the lesson. And so that's actually what makes things timeless, sadly, isn't even someone being extra poignant or like having words strung together in a sentence that have never been done before is the fact that we keep making the same mistakes. So if you can speak to a specific mistake and you can hopefully find something

Something to offer up besides just this is a mistake boo on you then I think that you do have a

catalog that you can look back on with a lot of things that hold up that people can enjoy or take something away from for First long for a long time. You're right. Carlin really does hold up even today is completely relevant the stuff He says that said you do a lot of stuff a pop culture as it's happening now Your most popular YouTube video at the moment is Drake versus Kendrick explained to white people. Yeah, I

Which is brilliant, which some people won't understand, but still is fantastic. 7.8 million views in 10 months. There's also Diddy's Collapse, untouchable to indicted, 6.5 million views. And of course, let's not forget why they're turning on Elon, one of my personal favorites, with 4.5 million views. These are 40-minute-plus conversational explainers with lots of detours, which is, I think, your signature style, although you do do the shorter TikTok ones. Yeah.

Why do you think long-form is doing so well for you? Because people want more explanation? Maybe. I don't know. I didn't necessarily...

engage with it that way because I figured something out. I just was doing my set and then I put it out and people found it and liked it and that's a real blessing. I don't really know if that will even be the case for long. I just know that this is the way that I approach comedy and

this is the way that I find it like fun and fulfilling. I'm happy that people enjoy it. It's not going to be everybody's cup of tea. So I understand that as well. But to me,

I think that in a world that's bombarding you consistently all the time with a message as quick as possible, convince you of something. And convince you of something that's a belief that they would like for you to hold for the end of time. Which is reductive, too. Yeah. I think that at a certain point, if you really take your time and think out an entire idea that there are going to be people who...

that and appreciate the through line that you create, the line of logic, so at least they understand your worldview and the worldview of people that believe what you believe a little bit better. And I think that maybe that's what's resonating with people right now because I'm especially not really trying to convince anybody of anything. These are the things that I believe. These are the things that I think are funny. And the great

Great thing about the internet is that there is some passivity there It's like if you really think that I suck you don't have to engage with me at all if you're like this isn't what comedy should be or if it's for you and you're like oh I really wanted something that whether it's breaking down a thing or joking about a thing that is obscure then you can find it and you can have fun with it, but

Don't know because I also don't know if I'll always do it this way. I think I think the whole thing any any Creator is supposed to evolve in some form. And so this is what I'm doing for now Maybe I'll do something different a few years from now But you know what I would I'm very attracted to one of the things when I know something I know about like your Elon takedowns are brilliant actually I have spent 30 years with that fucker and

You seem to get it pretty quick. You know, he was okay for many of those years and has sort of lost his ever-loving mind at this point. But you have real insight into these tech billionaires. They're giving you a lot of material. Sure. But I also think it's just like, to me, no matter what your...

Sort of like studying to find background on to speak about as an as earnestly and intelligently as possible I think if you have an understanding of people you'll understand a situation and I've met people like Elon and I've and I've met people like Trump and I've met people like Chuck Schumer and I've met I've met people that remind me of other people not saying that those people are the same as the people that I'm mentioning but I kind of

try to put a lot of the things that I make through the sort of lens of like, we are all basically the same. And what I mean by that is that like, I try not to pass judgments that hold forever because I truly believe, this is just my thing. I'm not asking anybody else to believe it, but I think that if I had been born at a different time as a different person, I would be them. I think if I had, you know, the...

like chemical makeup in the brain, born in the time, had the parents of, the nurturing of a different person, I'd probably be just like them. I don't necessarily, like I hold my beliefs very strongly, but I don't hold them so strongly that I'm like, no, even if I had been born 20 years ago, I think exactly what I think right now. It's like, no, I had to be introduced to ideas. I had to be brought along. I had to learn. I had to make lots of mistakes and logic and then be educated.

about them, and that's just to get me where I am now. - In a lot of ways, these people are regressing, you know, back from something else with the aid of certain pharmaceuticals. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - But I do think that some of that regression in a lot of its forms, no matter how it happens, is like pain. And I think that there are some people that no matter how much money they have

or clout, no matter how they look to us on the outside, are deeply fearful of even the person, of discovering the person that they are, because I think you have to face a lot to do that. And so rather than open themselves up to what would potentially make them a better person, or at least give them a deeper understanding of other people, even if they don't change their mind about anything, they sort of regress because that is the

I don't know. A part of me sometimes, it's not an indictment on all of us, but sometimes it just feels like the manly thing to do. Yeah, that is manly. It's like, no, I'm not wrong. If I just get louder, I won't be wrong because I won't hear anybody else talking. Yeah. At the same time, they might just be assholes. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's always funny.

You know, I'm always struck by how unhappy a lot of the richest people in the world are. It's really quite something to see, like the unhappiness and the grievance and the victimization. That's really what my book was about, was their grievance, their constant and exhausting victimization of themselves, which is...

tiresome and no reflection. What's I mean, if it's a, it's a miracle that you can see themselves in the mirror at this point. I mean, when you don't have an odyssey, then you have to create one and you only create one, like one of two ways. There could be an actual problem in the world. Like, like, you know,

I'm not gonna tell anybody how to spend their money, but Elon could easily be like, you know what seems unconquerable? Hunger. So I'm gonna attack hunger for the rest of my life. I'm gonna go at war with hunger. What are the best ways that we can attack hunger and stop hunger, right? Do you know what his solution might be? Kill half the people. I wouldn't want him to tackle hunger.

I feel like all my robots could kill half the people and then everyone would have plenty of... He's like Thanos. He's literally Thanos. I'm not saying he'd be good at it. I'm just saying the thing that he chose was like, I'm going to go after the idea that people have ideas that I don't like. I'm going to try to completely shift culture and thinking in a way that is so Animal Farm, so 1984. And it's like, you could...

He's kind of out of problems, so he has to make some. And he's only out of problems because the real problems the world is facing are not things that he's

interested in yeah if only he hadn't hugged more as a child um so one of the things in your 2023 special you imply comedy's been a form of therapy for you i mean a lot of these people could use just even the smallest amount of therapy um and you even thank the audience your therapist for keeping you alive um do you talk a little bit about that are you do you see yourself as a founder of a community you want to be around you do you follow your own advice on your flowers tour yeah i mean the

The purpose of the tour, the idea is to, for myself especially, to sort of learn how to like plant these sort of seeds of mutual aid and things that we can sustain like long after the tour is over and long after I'm gone and everything because I think that if you can

Set something up like that like we don't really think about the people who are the reason that we have like a 40-hour workweek But there were people that like protested died there people put themselves on the line And so even though they they're gone and we don't really know their names We get that benefit and so if it kind of felt like you know to answer your question and hopefully as succinctly as possible because I do talk a lot is

is the same way that when I moved to Chicago, I was like, okay, I can either do lighting or I can do comedy. One gives me a lot of joy. One, I think I'm pretty good at, but both, I'm probably going to be poor. And so I just picked the thing that gave me more joy. And I think that if I'm not going to be here forever anyway, then...

it's more so what you sort of leave behind. And so on Flower Store, we're doing our best to get better and better in every city at community outreach. And some of that community outreach is just letting the people know who come to the show what's already happening in their community, like all the good work that's already being done. So even if we don't start something new, we let

the people know that like, oh, there's this animal shelter here that is just not even six blocks away from the theater and they're taking volunteers and you can sign up or you can donate or whatever the thing is. Because I think that one of the reasons people feel so beat down all the time is that they are unaware in all the noise of the internet of all the good work that is happening around them. Yeah, and the solutions. And so that is like...

What I'm attempting to do with the tour and each tour for the rest of the time that I'm doing comedy is that I think that if you can go somewhere, I mean, like Flowers is a little on the nose, but every every

State has a flower cities have particular flowers that grow there in a way that they don't grow anywhere else and so if you can visit and sort of plant these seeds and you can nurture them leave them with the people that came to the show and and sort of leave that general message there that when you come back to sort of water

water that idea that there might be something that's grown in the meantime and You know, it's interesting because Lincoln that was a famous quote. I think if I was remembered for anything It's where I found a thistle I planted a flower I mean it was one of his famous quotes is that he did that wherever he found that he's planted a flower which is interesting I want to

I want to talk about that idea because I'm going to shift gears a little bit and talk about how it's a business too. You just mentioned something you really like doing or you're going to be poor either way, but you're not. You're very entrepreneurial. You have two specials. One was self-financed and produced.

Talk a little bit about that, because one of the things you're doing is sort of trying to change a lot of comics. Not just you are doing this. There's a lot of calculation now happening with comics about how to be entrepreneurial. And I think they really are in a lot of ways. So talk about how that is. And lots of different comics have tried doing different things and owning their comedy. And it used to be you went on a you went on.

Stand-up, then you got on The Tonight Show, and then you got a series, and that's how it went. That's not how it is anymore, especially young comics. Can you talk a little bit about this? Yeah, I think that there are ways in which the economy is changing that if you don't think very deeply about what it is that you want to do and how you want to distribute it,

You will be not left behind in the way of like, get in now or it's over. I mean, like you, you will be sort of like following the lead of, of, um, a corporation who went ahead and figured out how to get around the idea that you could be independent, right?

So for instance, like while we, while we sat here when like vaping was getting big, right. And, and there was all these things going on about how like big tobacco was scared of vaping and they were actually lobbying to try to get all of these, uh, like municipal laws passed. And while some of that was happening, they were also quietly investing in vaping and then buying

vape companies because they knew that the tide was turning, everything was shifting, and they weren't going to be able to fight it forever. And so I think that when it comes to distribution, I think when it comes to ownership, and when it comes to you creating the things that you want to make and having some say in how they get created, that having that ownership, even if it doesn't look like much initially, is going to pay off dividends in the future because you...

You can choose your collaborators. Like, I've done my best to surround people... So, surround myself with people that I trust with the things that I'm making. And I want to make sure everybody feels content with what we're creating together, you know? That's yours. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like...

even if the actual creation of the thing is mine, if you are on the tour with me, I want you to feel like a part of the tour is yours and you can use the skills that you learn on the tour to go off and make your own thing in a way where I just feel like corporations are very good at like,

trying to make you feel that way while also trying to keep you the entire time and I think that the next wave of comedians that make money whether it's online or like touring or anything like that are gonna be finding more

independent ways to produce their stuff. And the thing that big corporations have over being independent or working on something that's like new in a way where you don't know if it'll work out is that they have the structure in place. And so when you see something with that big of a structure, it can catapult someone. If a company comes to you and they're like, oh, we want to be your sponsor and we're gonna...

we're going to fund your next three projects and everything that that's very enticing, but they own that, but it's all of your work, you know? And I'm not, I'm not saying that you never engage with a corporation at all. I'm not saying that you never do that on the daily show. That's yeah. Yeah. It's like you, you, you, you use the leverage you have when you have it and you build relationships that are just advantageous to you as well. I think that,

there's sometimes a level of trust in systems that we found to not be trustworthy for a long time. Yeah. I own everything now. After, I just got so sick of someone like Rupert Murdoch owning everything I did. And I was like, you're an asshole and I would like to just own it even if I don't make money from it, which I do. We'll be back in a minute.

The Nintendo Switch 2 is basically guaranteed to be the most interesting gadget of 2025. And we learned a lot of new stuff about it this last week or so. Some of the games that are coming out, some of the specs of the new device, and the fact that it's going to cost $449.99. Except maybe it's not, because the other thing going on right now is tariffs. And tariffs threaten to change just about everything about tech. What it is, how it's made, where it comes from, and crucially, how much we have to pay for it.

So that's what we're talking about on The Verge Cast all week, wherever you get podcasts. So every week we get a question from an outside expert. We've got, this guy came in with three questions because he's an overachiever, but we're going to play one of them. Let's listen. Hey, it's Mike Birbiglia. I'm a comedian also. I am a huge, huge fan of Josh Johnson. Josh, my question for you is...

Do you feel beholden to the format that you've perfected and invented these weekly, bi-weekly, topical 30-minute to one-hour specials? And are you worried, secretly deep down, that the moment you wait a month to put out something new or stop, people will tap out of the phenomenon that is Josh Johnson? Wow. No pressure. Um...

So, yeah, I think I, one, that's so nice. Like Mike is, that's genuinely, wow. It's a secret shiv, but go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead. I do think that, um, there's a possibility that that happens, but there's also a possibility that I put out a half hour or,

Whatever amount of time until I die and people check out anyway, it's like I can't control what other people do I can only do the best work that I can and and for right now I'm having a lot of fun doing what I'm doing. I'm very appreciative that people are enjoying it and For as long as it lasts, I'm thankful. I think that people look at anyone who is interested in their work as like

As if it's like you have to be interested forever or it counts for nothing if someone's a fan of what you do for seven years That's incredible. That's and and maybe they don't stop being a fan, but maybe they're like, ah, we get it I've had enough of him. Yeah, I've had enough of a man. It's like that's also okay Like I think there's a treadmill aspect to social media and everything else. Yeah, 100% and and I and

you know, who knows? I've had friends be like, oh, people are going to take it for granted and then they'll check out or maybe they'll watch and then they'll stop watching. I'm like, yeah, but

I don't know. I'm doing it for the people that are there. So I want to finish up talking about the role that comedy, especially satire, is playing right now in the political. We started talking about that. You talked about Carlin, who was one of the greatest political satirists and also very funny at the same time. What do you think your role is right now? Yeah, I think that my role, the thing that I hopefully do best is give people joy and

I don't know. I think that it would be dishonest of me to list a bunch of lofty things that I know that I...

can't really do because we do need the serious people to do the serious things and I'm here trying to make people laugh or I'll point out when I think something is dumb and I think that no matter how much a person may need that that's not the same thing as passing legislation that's not the same thing as well they don't pass legislation but go ahead no no that's very fair

That's very fair. I think, I guess to a certain degree, I am doing as much as Congress, but I... I mean, did you see the other guy? The other guy... Yeah. The other guy named Johnson was like, let's see what happens with what Trump does. Let's give the guy a chance. Yeah. I think that...

My role, my responsibility is to do what I'm doing right now and do it to the best of my ability to share as openly as possible to remind people that they're not only not alone, but also that

They have people right next to them that will take care of them. We're like so individualistic and we're we have so much capital on the mind that you forget that you're not in constant competition with everyone you meet all day. And so I think if I can like nurture that relationship and strangers towards each other, then I'm doing what I'm meant to do. See, I'm asking you what your point is. I'm sorry. What is your point on this planet?

Is there anything you find unfunny right now? That's a good question. I mean, I do think that there's... Even though we're not in it yet...

I look at the tariffs very seriously and I think about how there are people who, you know, voted, voted for Trump who are, are just happy to see, uh, rich Dems lose money cause they don't have any money in the stock market. And I don't think that they understand that it doesn't stop there. It's not like this stock market is this isolated thing and that a lot of people will lose jobs. Um,

when the rate of unemployment goes up, the rate of deaths go up. I do think it's something very, very serious.

There's a lot about it that I don't find funny. I can still write jokes about how haphazardly it was put together, about people's reactions, about the inability of people to fix it. And that still doesn't take away from the seriousness of the people who will suffer from it. So, yeah, I think the tariffs is one thing that like in earnest, I don't necessarily find funny at all, but I think I can make funny through pointing out the things that we all see, you know, that sort of like...

emperor having no clothes aspect of lately like when you do that the thing is not funny you're being led by someone who is deeply gullible who isn't wearing clothes but

It is funny to be like, hey, he naked. The cutting of Amber Ruffin from the White House Correspondents next week or two weeks from now, what did comics think of that? We always had a comic there, and they hired her for being edgy, and then they said, well, we don't need edgy right now. Yeah, I do think that there is some amount of...

I mean, I don't even know if fraternity is the right word, but there is some amount of camaraderie that every comic feels when another comic is genuinely censored. And I don't mean censored as in like they did their jokes, they made their money, then people got mad and they're like, y'all are killing me. I don't mean that. I mean when someone genuinely loses an opportunity because of what they have to say. And I think that

if anything, I wish that more comedians would be vocal about Amber Ruffin's situation the way they are when a comic is like, you know, putting, putting stuff out, making their money, but then getting backlash and somehow that's an attack, but like actually losing an opportunity isn't an attack. So I absolutely. All right. My last question does come from overachiever Mike again, we're going to play the clip and then you can answer it.

Josh, do you believe in the concept of there being a goat in comedy? And if so, are you the goat? Or will you someday be the goat? Or are you open to accepting the title if one day it was given to you by the comedy gods? Okay. And follow if you aren't the goat. Who is the goat right now in your opinion besides Mike, obviously? So...

Sure, I can't hear the third question. I don't I forgot what it was. Yeah, I don't believe in in like a concept of a of a goat. Really? I think maybe if you ask me on a different day, I'll give you a different answer. But I think that when something like art is so subjective, then you can be you can be first at something you can be the best at a particular thing. But I think that as long as we all have different preferences, as long as we all have different

Different views on what art is, I think it would be a bit short-sighted to call any one individual the goat. And that doesn't just go for comedy. It kind of goes for everything because time's not over. No. Like, don't get me wrong. If we really do all die, if this kills all of us...

Then yeah, I guess I guess not when when we are like in the ether if we still have consciousness Floating in the universe we can be like that one guy was pretty good now that now that time's over and we know there's no one else coming that that one guy he did it, you know, and I think that one thing that I find very interesting and

I think every comic knows this, is that the people who enjoy them the most, the people who have found that comedian to be their favorites, will call them the GOAT, depending on who you ask. It's Wanda Sykes, depending on who you ask. It's Maria Bamford. It's Bill Burr. It's Dave Chappelle. It's Chris Rock. It's Kevin Hart. It's whoever. And I think that that sort of thinking, if it seeps too much

into the mind, it can actually diminish the work. It's a lot like when you are a rapper and you're coming up and you have a lot of connection to community and people vibe with what you're putting out because they're part of that struggle that you're currently in because you're trying to get out of there. But then you do get out of there from success, from Grammys, from

notoriety and then all of a sudden you kind of don't know what to do with it because now you're like one of the greats and then You don't relate to the people the people don't relate to you so if you just approach all the art that you make the way that like a boxer is supposed to approach a fight there are plenty of fighters who thought that they were the goat and

Didn't train they were like I'm the best that's what I was gonna happen to me I'm the best and then they got in the ring with someone who didn't think they were the best and they were pummeled to oblivion And yeah, yeah, that was rocky three by the way. Yes Somebody finally said it And I think that that's what happens to artists if they get two in their heads and if they let people pump them up too much it's like you know

I could also still snap. Like, let's wait till I'm dead to call me anything. Okay. All right. I wasn't calling you the goat at all. It was great. Yeah, yeah. No. I appreciate the energy you're bringing because that's very much like... You know, that is what's happened to a lot of tech people. They've been licked up and down all day and they think they're the best thing ever. Yeah.

Last, very last question. This is a really hard time. It really is right now. It's not funny. What's happening is disturbing people being taken off to prisons without having done anything in El Salvador, even if they're from Venezuela, et cetera. I want you to leave this crowd with one hopeful thing, and then we'll head out. Okay. I think that...

However you're feeling right now, you should talk about it. And you should talk about it earnestly with people that you care about. And I think that when you do that, and when you do that enough, and not saying everyone works themselves into a frenzy, I mean when you talk about how you feel about what's happening,

With other people you see how they feel about it I think that those are the ways that you figure out what to do about it and when you know what to do about it and you take action then things will change and so whatever you're feeling right now is not permanent. It's not permanent in any manner of ways.

So even if things let's say quote-unquote get worse as well Those things will not be permanent everything everything changes with time and all we have is each other and so we have to take care of each other each other are the priority I think that

The way that people look at the market as well. You know, you see so many YouTube videos go up on Friday, like how to protect yourself from the Trump terrorist. It's like, it's not yourself. You cannot protect yourself. You will not be able. If the Titanic is sinking, you are doomed if you're trying to swim it alone to safety. That's just not going to work. Josh, I said hopeful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We somehow got to Titanic. I swear I'm getting to it. Okay. But in case I don't, you should just cut the episode right there. That would actually be very funny. You're like, Josh, I said hopeful, and then... Thank you. No, we love to get out on a laugh, you know? But I genuinely...

Believe that I think that we because of how individualistic we've become and because of how we've been socialized to think about our own upward mobility, we deeply underestimate the power of cooperation and community and

not only do I think that is the only way forward, but I think there's a lot of hope in the fact that we have not yet seen its powerful impact in our lifetime. So once again, the people that fought for the 40-hour work week, the people that fought for everything that we enjoy without really having to think about it, they were the people that came together for those efforts. And so it can be done. It's already been done before, and we can do it again. I would agree. I would agree.

Josh, you're an incredibly thoughtful, astonishing performer. I appreciate y'all. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate y'all. Thank you so much. Thank you.

On With Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yochum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you don't just have the tools. You actually know how to fix a sink, unless you're a lesbian and you already did in the first place. If not, remember, you're more likely to build a community than become a billionaire, and it's so much better. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.