Cry For Help
01:10:40 Share

This is exactly right.

This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in places that could expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second. If your identity is stolen, their U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.

Church's fans keep it real, and we gotta reward that. Church's Real Rewards makes it real easy to save real coin, real fast, like in real time. Get a free two-piece chicken or three-piece tenders with your first purchase when you sign up.

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them. Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes. And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens. Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. This is Buried Bones. ♪♪

Hey, Paul. Hey, Kate. Oh, you're sounding a little bit... What's the term? Happy? Yes. Is that the term we're looking for? Hold on. There's a little bit more energy in your voice. Oh, we're close to Halloween. I love Halloween. Love it, love it, love it. And we've talked about Halloween. The only thing that I remember about Halloween with you is that you say nobody in Colorado puts out jack-o'-lanterns because...

the deer eat them all, and then you sent me a photo of a deer eating a gentle winter. Yes, the porch pirates that we have out here. So I would like a more constructive, I think, conversation about Halloween. How did you celebrate it? I know that you were moving a lot as a kid. Did you have a particular tradition about Halloween that you and your parents celebrated? No, nothing...

You know, nothing over the top. My parents weren't real heavy into decorating for any of the holidays, you know, more so for Christmas than anything else. Of course, we always had candy for the trick-or-treaters and, you know, my brother and I would go trick-or-treating when we were really young. I can't quite remember when we stopped doing that. But, you know, I have some very fond memories, particularly of when I was really...

really young, like five years old, at Hill Air Force Base outside of Salt Lake City. And you could not get away with this today, but the neighbors had set up a maze using cardboard boxes, like refrigerator-sized boxes, that went all through their house. So as a trick-or-treater, as a little kid, I'd have to get on my hands and knees and

and disappear from sight from whoever was watching me and travel this maze. And they would have little outcroppings within the maze, or you'd have like the wolverine, you know, that would kind of jump out at you or those types of things. And eventually you'd get into where they had the candy, and it was a really cool setup. I mean, very clever. But nowadays, you know, me being the helicopter parent,

There's no way in hell would I let my kid disappear into some person's house like that. And I think a helicopter parent might be an understatement for you.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I had that kind of childhood too, where we would go into, you know, the neighbor's houses. I remember trick-or-treating with my friend one time, and we knocked on this woman's door. She came and opened the door, and she said, oh my gosh, girls, I don't have any candy. I just made a pot of chicken. Would you like some boiled chicken?

And I said, sure, of course. Who doesn't want chicken? We came in and ate chicken. Okay, this is Hansel and Gretel.

Are you sure it was chicken? I mean, I'm not sure chicken is the greatest draw for 12-year-olds, but it worked on us. We came in and had some chicken. Wow. And then we left, and that was it. I know. Like, would that happen today? No. But it was a nice memory. And then I loved my friend Stella. I loved this particular friend because she hated and hates chocolate currently. And so we would sit down. She'd take all my nasty sweet tarts. Sorry for fans who love sweet tarts.

And I would take every piece of chocolate that she had. And that's what I do to my kids today. I take all their chocolate. There you go. Yeah, I'm a sweet tart person. Are you really? But are you a chocolate person? Oh, I like chocolate, you know, for sure. But like Smarties, that type of.

was, that was one of my favorite candies of all time. But like the candy bars, Three Musketeers, that's the bomb. Really? Yep. Boy, we're going to go down a deep hole here. There's no contrast with Three Musketeer though. You know, there's no like chewy. I don't, I don't want chewy. You don't like chewy? I don't want nuts. I don't want caramel. I, no, no. And I, if I'm doing chocolate, I just want pure chocolate, you know, whether it be like a Hershey's bar or the, the, the Kisses.

You know, that's what I want. And I do like the dark chocolate. So you'd get the little Hershey's, you know, and you'd get the various ones. I always would go after, I think they call it the dark specialty or specialty dark variety. Yeah, special dark. My dad liked to freeze Snicker bars in the freezer, and he ate one. I know, I don't get it either. He ate one, and he chipped his tooth. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know if it says more about my dad's teeth quality or more about the durability of this frozen snicker bar. Yeah.

Yeah, he turned it into, yeah, I mean, just hard candy at that point. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure. My dad had a lot of common sense, but that not involving chocolate bars. He also used to eat giant, those really big Hershey chocolate bars with almonds in them, which I loved. I thought that was great. But I remember him telling me one night, he was sick. He was kind of going through my dad, you know, I told you died of

lung cancer long ago. And he was going through chemo. He called me one morning. I was teaching at Fordham and he called me and he said, I didn't sleep a lick last night. It was awful. I said, oh, is it chemo or what's going on? He said, no, I just was wide awake all night long. And I said, well, what did you eat? He ate two of those bars. Yeah. Paul, the giant ones. And I said, dad, I mean...

I don't know how much caffeine and sugar is in that, but you cannot eat like a half a pound or whatever that was of candy. He really, his love for candy really overcame his common sense sometimes, I think. Yeah, sugar is addicting. There's no question about it.

Oh, listen, buddy, we're not going down the sugar road with you. I know how you feel about sugar. It's as bad as some of the criminals you've encountered in your career is the way that you frame it. That's the way it is. As I reach for my beef jerky here, hold on. I know, and your whiskey probably. You know, I actually, I just have, you know, my flavored water right now. Yeah.

You know, maybe the next time we get together, I'll have a pour. Yeah, probably in the middle of this episode, I would say. I don't know. There's a positive thing about this episode, which is I'm so interested in kidnapping and people who are willing to kidnap people. I find it fascinating, the wacky things that they ask people.

the victim's families to do. We've had many of those. I don't know if these people think that they're pulled out of some sort of cops and robbers movie, but, you know, some of the wacky instructions that we read about. But the hard part about this story is that it involves a baby, and we're not rehashing Lindbergh baby, but this feels pretty familiar. So we're going to be going down not a

Not a spooky road with this story, but maybe just something that is this mystery that I think was very difficult for investigators to untangle, and it happens right after World War I starts. So it's a great time period to talk about. All right. Well, once again, I'm looking forward to hearing the case. Okay. Have your whiskey ready. I might have to go run and grab the bottle. You might right now. I don't know why you don't have one downstairs right now in your man cave. I don't know.

Because that gets dangerous. Oh, okay. All right. Well, let's set the scene. Okay. We are in Springfield, Missouri. I've told everybody my dad was from Vandalia. I have very fond memories of Missouri and, you know, driving in the snow, which I had never really done before. And I don't know if you do this, Paul, but I speak, every time my book comes out, I appear at the St. Louis Logistics.

library there, the main library, and it is a wonderful book event. I'm always happy to be there. So big shout out to the folks at the St. Louis Library who do such a good show. But I'm a big Missouri fan, you know? Yeah, you know, I really don't have any experience in Missouri outside of that very same library. I did that, I believe it was on my paperback tour, you know, so flew into St. Louis, never saw the arch, you know, and flew out. That was my experience in Missouri and in St. Louis.

Let's face it, summer isn't the only time we get body odor. We can get just as smelly under our favorite fall sweaters. But don't sweat it. Lume Whole Body Deodorant has you covered all year round. Lume Whole Body Deodorant is safe to use anywhere on your body. That's right.

anywhere, and it provides 72-hour odor control. Lume was created by an OBGYN who saw firsthand how body odor negatively impacts people's confidence and quality of life. Traditional deodorants try to mask odor, but Lume takes a different approach. It uses mandelic acid to stop odor before it even starts. Think of it as your very own pre-odorant.

Choose from a variety of fresh, bright scents like clean tangerine, lavender sage, or toasted coconut. And they just leveled up with the new Lume Whole Body Deodorant Plus Sweat Control. It's got the same 72-hour odor protection you love with the added bonus of keeping sweat in check.

Paul, my teenage girls love a good product and they like to try new things. They were both fans of the Lume Whole Body Deodorant plus sweat control. They both play sports after school. They get sweaty. We're in Texas. So I said, you guys have to level up with your deodorant. So they tried Lume. They loved it.

They felt very comfortable hanging out with their friends afterwards, and so they keep it in their sports bag. Lumi Starter Pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with a solid-stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant, two free products of your choice, like mini body wash and deodorant wipes, and free shipping. And as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get 15% off all Lumi products with our exclusive code.

And if you combine the 15% off with the already discounted starter pack, that equals over 40% off their starter pack. Use code buried for 15% off your first purchase at LumeDeodorant.com. That's code buried at L-U-M-E-D-E-O-D-O-R-A-N-T dot com.

It's spooky season and there's nothing scarier than razor burn and ingrown hairs. If harsh razors have haunted your sensitive skin, Athena Club is here to save the day. The Athena Club razor has thousands of five-star reviews. They're designed with built-in skin guards so you could say goodbye to razor burn while covering all your curves.

And get this, the blade is surrounded by a water-activated serum packed with shea butter and hyaluronic acid. The best part is that the razor kit is only $10 and comes with two blade heads, a magnetic hook for easy shower storage,

and you can choose your favorite handle color. How cute is that? And if you're a minimalist, they've got sleek black and white options too. You'll never have to stress about blade refills again. You can decide how often you want those replacement blades shipped.

Don't forget about Athena Club's Dreamy Shave Foam. It'll leave your skin feeling soft, hydrated, and oh so smooth. Athena Club products are available online and in Target stores nationwide. I'm a huge fan of Athena Club's Dreamy Shave Foam. I love it. It's really smooth. I've used a lot of shaving cream on my legs before, and it never rubs.

White feels moisturizing, and I have super dry skin. So this Shea Foam is perfect for me. Show your skin you care with the Athena Club Razor Kit. Sign up today, and you'll get 30% off your first Razor Kit order. Just go to athenaclub.com and use promo code BURIEDBONES. That's A-T-H-E-N-A-C-L-U-B.com.

with promo code buriedbones for 30% off. Let's talk about Springfield. This is May 30th of 1917. And as I said, a couple of months after the beginning of World War I. So it will tell you a lot about the importance of this story when I say, when we start unraveling details, that this was front page news in Missouri for quite a while. And that says a lot considering we were going into war.

So this was a big deal, big deal. So this is on a plateau in the middle of the Ozarks, which must just be gorgeous.

It's a warm spring night, like I said, right at the end of May 1917. And this is happening in a wealthy enclave on a street called Windermere Street. There are a couple of different reports that say one says Windermere Place and some Windermere Street. Just a wealthy area. Let me tell you about the family. This is the family of a wealthy banker. His name is James Holland Keat.

He's married to a woman named May. He is 33 and she is 28. So young couple from my point of view, young couple.

They have two kids, James Jr., who is three, and a little boy named Josiah Lloyd, who everybody called Buddy. Buddy is 14 months old. This is a very, very wealthy family by any stretch of the imagination, let alone in Missouri. He owns a dry goods store and he manages a bank, but it sounds like he's pulled back from his role a little bit with the bank, but it's well known that he has a lot of money. He's one of the wealthiest people, I'm sure, in the state, and he's a very wealthy man.

James is worth about $3 million, which is in today's money about $75 million, almost $75 million. So this is wealthy, right? And now you know where we're going with this kidnapping.

Sometimes we talk about kidnappings. Well, actually, I don't know if we've had a story yet where it's a kidnapping that is purported to be a kidnapping and it turns out to not be a kidnapping. It turns out to be something else. When we talk about kidnappings, they tend to actually be kidnappings for money, right? Can you think of anything that's not a kidnapping for money when we do this?

We had Lindbergh. Right. Well, you know, I think, you know, when you start getting into... When law enforcement gets called out for kidnapping, I don't know what the percentage is, but there's a decent percentage of cases in which the parents have hurt their kid or killed their kid, and now they're, you know, staging it to look like the kid is gone. You know, and then there's numerous high-profile examples of that type of case. I'm trying to think...

I can think of two cases in my career in which there was a bona fide kidnapping. One was of a wealthier adult woman, and the other was a child that was kidnapped and sexually assaulted. But then the child was sort of returned to the same neighborhood. What happened with the wealthier woman? She survived, is what I recall. It was a case from the late 1980s, and so I came on board shortly thereafter, and

And I had a very small in-lab role, but I remember talking to the... We had a DA. He was an amazing legal mind as well as just what his contributions were to our criminal justice process out there. His name was Bob Hole, H-O-L-E. So I'm Holes, he's Hole. We're probably related many, many decades ago over in England somewhere, but...

He was involved. I remember him telling that story in terms of how he was, you know, this woman was kidnapped and now they're in the streets of San Francisco looking for her and there's communications. There was a ransom request, you know, and they were trying to get that resolved. And I don't quite remember how it got resolved, but it did. But it was one of those when you start talking about a bona fide kidnapping, that's the one case that I sort of had a role in way back when. Yeah.

You'll need to refresh my memory on how these things were handled and maybe should be handled when we're talking about ransoms here pretty soon. So James Keat and his wife, who goes by Jenny sometimes, are at a dance.

They're coming home from the country club where they belong. And they have, it's a little confusing about the details, but they have either a baby nurse or a maid or two maids. But it sounds like there are two people. So either a baby nurse and a maid or there are two maids. But there are two, you know, domestic workers who are staying with these two kids. And again, we have a three-year-old and we have a 14-month-old. So they get back home. It's around midnight, warm summer night, 1917. And they go look in

on the baby in the nursery. The nursery is on the first floor. One of the things that I think is a little confusing about this story is that there are some reports that the baby nurse and the maid were on the upstairs floor and the nursery's on the bottom floor.

or they're both in an adjoining room. Whatever the case, Buddy is left alone. The 14-month-old is left alone to go to sleep in his nursery. When the parents go into the room, they see that Buddy is gone, and the nursery window is wide open. The screen has been removed. They run around the house, and then I'll stop after this. They run around the house because they want to know what happened, number one, to the two women who were supposed to be looking after this kid,

And number two, where their other child is, James is fine. James Jr. is there, the three-year-old. He is upstairs and unharmed. So the only person potentially who was asleep downstairs was the 14-month-old. So, you know, they sound the alarm and off we go trying to figure out what happened to this kid. So obviously the nursery has a window, an exterior window in it.

which I guess I thought about, you know, when I had these two twins, like who could have access? I definitely thought like that. I don't know if people in 1917 would have or would you have thought, can somebody get into this house, you know, and slip in and slip out without me knowing accessing my kids? Oh, absolutely. You know, that's just part of, you know, assessing the, you know, the residents. And it's, you know, like I know for...

for raising my kids always had the kids on a second floor, never on the first floor. You know, and that's just part of, you know, like when the kids are now going to college, you know, are they on the first floor or the second floor? You know, and that's just...

make it harder for the offender. Not only does it make it harder to gain access to a bedroom from the outside, you know, being on the second floor, but also it's how two-story structures are set up. Typically, you have one staircase going up and down. And this is really the funnel of death for the offender. He has to go through this particular structure and is confined to

And so this is where in my living situation, if I've got my kids on the second floor with me and I hear something, if I'm confident nobody's in their room, where I'm at is I'm posting up on top of the staircase and I'm waiting for somebody to show themselves in that staircase. That's just a tactically sound way to handle, let's say, an intruder in the middle of the night. So

So that's where the advantages are to the homeowner in that scenario. And if the offender makes it up to the second floor, it has to go typically down that same staircase, right? And so it's just that restriction that makes it hard for the offender.

So here in this particular case, we have a 14-month-old that is sleeping in a room on the first floor, and everybody else in the house at the time is at least on a second floor, it sounds like. Right. So, you know, if you think about going back to the Lindbergh baby, that if we believe that the right people were caught for kidnapping him, they had made a homemade...

ladder because this was, remember I showed you that photo, he was on the top floor. Charles Lindbergh Jr. was on the top floor, but window access. And the idea was that they climbed up this sort of rickety makeshift ladder and got the baby and came down and maybe fell because maybe one of the rungs was broken. And it was rural. This is different. This seems like almost like a smash and grab. I mean, it's really without the smashing part. It seems a little too easy for somebody who's worth this amount of money to

And who's in a city? I mean, you know, Springfield, if we kind of get into it, Springfield is not a massive town at this time period, but there certainly is some kind of crime. I think also 1917, Midwest, how many people were locking their doors, locking their windows, you know? So this is pretty typical. And I, you know, the first question that I have is,

is whether or not do we have any information. Was the window locked? Was the window pried? Or did the offender just have to take the screen off and then open up the window? We'll keep going, and then we'll see if I can figure that information out for you. Okay.

♪♪♪

Why wait any longer? BetterHelp makes getting started easy. Simply fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a licensed therapist. If the connection isn't right, you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. And because they know you're busy, the BetterHelp platform

form is entirely online and it's designed to fit your ever-changing schedule. Yeah, Kate, after I retired, you know, now that I'm in my midlife crisis and started reflecting on my career, I recognized that I was wearing masks. And in part, the title of my book, Unmasked, was recognizing, oh, I've had issues from a career filled with trauma. And so seeking a therapist such as Going Through Better Help is just so beneficial.

Absolutely. Take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash buried bones today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash buried bones.

This podcast is sponsored in part by Midi Health. Look, there's nothing wrong with aging, but if you're a woman over 40, you might be dealing with hot flashes, insomnia, or brain fog. These are all symptoms of perimenopause and menopause. And

Even though hormonal transition is a normal part of aging, that doesn't mean you have to suffer. The experts at Midi Health understand what you're going through and how to help. Midi Health is the only virtual care clinic for women navigating midlife hormonal transition. If you've never heard of menopausal care, that might be because 75% of women who seek clinical support don't receive treatment.

But Midi Health is here to provide the support you need and deserve. From FDA-approved medications to lifestyle coaching and health guidance. Your body changes in midlife, so your health care should too. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com. They're calling in the bloodhounds. We've talked about bloodhounds before.

So this is what they say. The Keiths call the police immediately. Volunteers show up. They're very important. This is almost midnight. I mean, how terrifying. They start searching through the night. The police bring bloodhounds, and they find Buddy's scent and trace it to the outskirts of town, and then they lose it there about 8.30 in the morning. So they are searching for, you know, seven to eight hours.

And they think that when they lost the scent, the kidnappers had been carrying the baby by foot. And then they get to that spot on the edge of town and there's a getaway car.

So is that accurate? Can bloodhounds really tell you all that? Yes. You know, dogs are amazing, but it also is dependent on the handler. It's dependent on the environmental conditions. There's so many variables. So there's no question that whether it's bloodhounds, and we know bloodhounds are a breed that have very, very sensitive noses, but then there's other breeds that are very good at tracking as well. Their assessment, you

In terms of if these dogs were able to be on a scent trail for that long, I would agree. It sounds like Buddy is being carried on foot, and then once that trail disappears, then likely into a vehicle. Now, it's not conclusive of that. The problem is with dogs, they can't talk to you.

So it's like, are they truly on Buddy's scent? Did they pick up on something else inside the house, you know, and then they're following that? You know, there's a lot of variables in which it's a tool. Dogs are a tool and they're a valuable tool, but you can't

put 100% confidence into any, you know, scent track. Well, these bloodhounds actually hit pay dirt later on, so that's good to know. Somebody is competent, either the dogs or the handler or both, but they are very, very helpful later on. And I will be honest, I don't know if I've ever read anything on a story where bloodhounds have actually been helpful in

in this time period i mean i've never read a story where the bloodhounds actually track down the person the suspect the victim anything but they're helpful here yeah well i think you know in in modern era you know we've had dogs out on multiple cases i was involved with for a variety of reasons you know whether it be decom dogs looking for human remains or in the like in this situation where they're scent dogs and they're trying to track down the scent

But most frequently, you have your canine handlers, you know, and they get dispatched to a location. And sometimes, you know, they have their dog go. I mean, dogs are incredible. You know, the dogs are able to go and find the bad guy, whereas the humans are just, you know, kind of standing there going, well, I know he's out there somewhere. Yeah.

So it's, again, you know, there's plenty of examples of dogs that have really benefited cases as well as just, you know, general crime fighting. Well, and just to go back to American Sherlock and the train robbery that's in my book, 1923, the would-be robbers, I hate to call them train robbers because they actually blew up part of the train and could not get any money. They actually didn't get anything, so I'm not sure we can qualify them as robbers.

But these guys, these brothers, they wore burlap covers on their shoes, their boots, and they soaked them in creosote. Is that how you say that? I think so. Yeah. To throw off the scent of the dogs. And it worked. It worked. That was the only smart thing they did to be honest, but it worked.

Under that scenario, you know, it really depends on what the handler is asking the dog to scent off of. You know, because even though, let's say, your footwear has been put in, you know, somewhat of this noxious type of, you know, chemical, if the handlers knew that that's what these guys did, then they would just have the dog scent off that chemical and follow it. And that would be, I would imagine, very easy. When you have the offenders...

you don't have necessarily real good scent articles to tell the dog, this is what I want you to follow. So let's say those, you don't want to call them train robbers, they're really vandals. They just kind of destroyed property and their incompetence. But if let's say they dropped a

a mask and the, you know, the handler knew that mask came from one of the bad guys, then he would have the dog sent from that mask. And the scent comes from the other parts of the, the bad guy's body. And so that scent is,

And oftentimes will pool on the ground. That's why the dogs sniff the ground. And so they can be told, ignore the creosote, scent this. And I bet the dogs would be able to differentiate. That's interesting. But we'll see. I'll tell you later how the dogs become helpful.

Everyone's freaking out. They've lost the scent. They think that Buddy has had kidnappers take him on foot, and then they think that at the outskirts of town that he's been put in a car. They have no idea where this 14-month-old is.

That morning, after they lose the cent, the Keat family gets a ransom letter. And the letter is addressed to the Holland Bank, where James was vice president. Now he has a less involved role. He obviously still has access to the money there. People know he's very wealthy. So it goes to the bank. Unfortunately, there are a lot of media leaks in this story, and it causes a pretty big problem.

because the leak of this letter got to the press. And I think mostly it's because they said that the postal workers attracted some attention when they were trying to get the letter to James. I guess they weren't subtle. And they said, you know, I don't know if they were waving it and saying, it's a ransom letter, but now the press knows. The ransom letter is written in pencil, and it says this. And actually, this is a ransom letter that makes more sense than many of them we've read before.

We got your kid. Don't say anything to the police or put it in the papers. There are three of us, and we want $2,000 apiece, so it will cost you $6,000. Thanks for the math. $6,000 to get him. We got another picked out. I'm assuming they mean kid. So if we don't get this from you, money, we can tell them to see what we did to yours, buddy."

So the letter says that they'll get more instructions in another letter the next day. $6,000 is about $150,000 today. So what do you think about that? Well, it's very clear in terms of what they want. It's not rambling. I think it's interesting that they're specifying the number of offenders, three. And, you know, I get a little skeptical about that. You know, I would tend to lean, well, you may just have one offender and one

wants to be more intimidating by adding a number there, but not necessarily. That's kind of a hard thing to interpret. The offender has taken Buddy out of Buddy's residence, most certainly would know or have access to the address. The letter could have gone directly to James, but it sounds like they knew James's connection to the Holland Bank.

So that's a little bit of insight about the offender. Don't know how much insight that is, but it's like, okay, how does the offender know about his connection? Is that just through reading newspaper articles or is there a personal connection the offender has to that bank and or James knowing that?

this connection to the bank. You know, so that's just something I'm going to kind of go, okay, that's an interesting bit of knowledge that the offender is revealing kind of indirectly by sending the ransom note to the bank itself. I wonder how they picked that number, $6,000, $2,000 per person. I mean...

We can't get into the mind of an offender, but how would you come up with a ransom number? How would you know how much this person is willing to pay? And incidentally, I'm pretty sure he'd be willing to pay a lot more than that knowing what he's worth. Well, it would be interesting, you know, is there any type of, you know, in this day and age, certain amounts of dollar transactions are tracked much more rigorously than lesser amounts.

You know, so I'd be kind of curious to see, is there anything monetarily that the offender is trying to avoid by asking for a certain amount? It may, you never know, it may just be the offender is going, well, I want to buy, you know, a fancy carriage with four horses and it costs so much. And so...

you know, that's the value, that's the amount I'm going to ask for. You know, it's something that the offender just happens to need, maybe has a gambling debt, and that's the amount that he... So right now, don't know, you know, it's just, it's curious. Okay. So we're at $6,000 right now. That's what they want. James Keet goes to the sheriff because the sheriff is ready to investigate, and he says, I don't want you to do one thing until we get this additional letter. Okay.

I want to pay the ransom. It is no big deal. I want my kid back. And the sheriff lets him, you know, stay in the driver's seat. And so they say, okay, let's wait and see what this next letter is.

So again, this is 14 years before the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, which was the most high-profile kidnapping case, as far as I know, certainly of a child ever. And this is a time where kidnapping children, non-parental kidnappings are very, very rare for ransom. So the story becomes huge national news, of course, you know, all across the country, even though we're getting ready to really dig into World War I now.

This would have been terrifying, I'm sure, you know, for all parents, but particularly wealthy parents, I'm sure, are gripping their children a little more tightly. The Keith family says nothing to the press.

But there is a lot of reporting about the kidnapping as early as the morning after, thanks to the postal carriers really making a big deal going from the bank over to James' house. The newspapers are reporting that day that James' family got a ransom letter, that the baby has been kidnapped and everybody's in fear. The articles say that Mr. Keat will not reveal the contents of the ransom letter, and he's not going to talk to the press.

He has hired private investigators. And every time I see the name of the firm, it always makes me smile. The Pinkertons. And I mean, I think everybody's probably heard at least once about the Pinkerton Detective Agency. I've heard of it. I can't quite place why, but definitely a famous agency. I mean, they were the go-to for basically everything as far as private detective.

And they were in St. Louis. I don't know if that's where they were based, but they had a big office in St. Louis. And, you know, they investigated, like, armed robberies and train robberies and outlaws and also, you know, going back to murders. Anybody who had the money could hire the Pinkertons, including the government. Yeah.

James's brother is being pressured by the press to give more information. And he says, we are not doing any talking. That is the order and the order is being obeyed. Now we get another letter. We do get these cases where we get these really wacky instructions for ransom. And now we kind of go, I think, off the deep end. Do you have anything to say before I tell you what their instructions are for James?

I think the only observation that I'm making right now is from the very get-go, when the parents come home, they are responding as you would expect them to. There's no delay in reporting. Once they've determined that Buddy is gone, they are mobilizing authorities and trying to

do what they can. And I completely understand James's position with the sheriff. You know, this is like, no, hold on. You know, I'll pay the money. I want my kid back.

That is what most parents would probably do under that scenario. You know, and oftentimes, you know, law enforcement, you don't want to encourage this type of activity by cooperating. It's just that when you're the parent, it's like, no, what's going to happen if I don't cooperate? You know, it's sort of the worst scenario you could be in. Well, James is very upset, of course. He's reading this note, and he shows it to the sheriff. And this is what the note says in summary. Okay.

They want James and only James to leave by himself. I don't mean to laugh through this, but some of the stuff they're having him do, I know you're smiling too. I don't know what movies these guys have been watching, but this is what they want. He is a roadster. Love roadsters. They want him to paint one of the headlights of the roadster the color red. Okay. Yeah.

He's supposed to travel into the foothills of the Ozarks through Greene County and go under 20 miles per hour the whole time. And he is told that he should be listening for a voice to shout, stop. Then he's supposed to get out of the car and walk 100 paces backwards and set a white lantern on the road with this money, the $6,000.

Then he's supposed to drive one mile and then return back to get the ladder. Presumably, the kidnappers will take the money then when he leaves. And then the kidnappers will have taken the money and left behind a map that will lead them to Buddy. I mean, what the hell? This is really complicated. You know, as comical as it sounds, as I'm mentally kind of going through this, though, there's a certain logic to this.

to it. And I think part of it is the geography, you know, going up into the Ozarks. You know, this idea of him painting one headlight red on his roadster. Well, that is something that they would be able to see from a distance, right? So now they're aware that James is approaching.

underneath 20 miles an hour, they're able to, gives them greater time to assess the vehicle, assess, is he alone? Is there anybody following him? Is there anybody else in the vehicle, et cetera? And then the voice stop. So they're not like walking out of the middle of the road and holding their hand up. They're wanting to keep their physical presence a mystery. So the use of the voice makes sense.

They're obviously having James drive past their location. That's why they want him to walk backwards to just minimize the chance of him spotting something. The lantern, the money, it's a beacon where now they can see him actually deposit accounts.

a container, I'm assuming, with the lantern. So at least they know there's something that he's putting down. They don't know the money's in there, but they still hold the cards. They have Buddy, you know, so he better put the money down or he's not going to get Buddy. And then to drive off for a mile, turn around and come back, well, that's going to give them time to be able to go up there, ensure that they got the money, drop the map, and then

And in essence, put enough distance between that location and their escape for the time it takes James to get back to that location. So as goofy as this scenario sounds, at least as I'm going through this, I'm going, okay, you know, it actually makes sense because they're trying to minimize their risk. Yeah.

offenders, that's part of their planning process. They want to minimize the risk to themselves as they commit the crime. Well, I just did a little bit of a search, and we're talking about 18 miles between Springfield, depending on where he is, and Greene County. So they're having him drive

less than 20 miles an hour for about 18 miles. Yeah. Now, so they're telling him the entire distance he has to drive less than 20 miles, not once he gets into the Ozarks or whatever location. Well, I mean, they're telling him to go travel into the foothills of the Ozarks through Greene County. Right. You're right. So I don't know how much further past

I just didn't get that information how much further past Greene County he was supposed to go into the Ozarks. But, I mean, you know, the complaint, he says that he had to drive all night long.

So, it must have been a long drive for him. Yeah, and there may be a reason for that location to the offenders. And it may just be purely, I don't know the terrain well enough, but my guess is that where he is doing this drop-off of the money, that visibility from a distance is reduced, either because it's a hillier area or it's more forested, you know, more curvy roads, you know,

you know, versus right out there in Springfield. You know, plus, if they do have somebody following him when he leaves his house, it also gives them time to spot somebody that, let's say, you know, the sheriff has, you know, unmarked car that's following from a distance. Well, funny you should say that. That's going to come into play in just a minute or two. Oh, imagine that. I know. James says, okay, let's do it. And he gets in his car and,

And he has the ransom money, the $6,000. He's following the directions perfectly.

There is a lot of rain and a lot of tornado activity in the area, but he does it. He follows the route laid out in the ransom note. He drives, goes slowly, and at the point where the kidnappers are supposed to say stop, he never hears stop, ever. The issue, I think, is again, the second note got out to the press, and there have been various reports that he was followed. He was either followed by the sheriffs and they never told him,

He was followed. There actually, this is an interesting quote, some witnesses from smaller towns in Greene County told the reporters that they saw as many as a dozen additional cars that were following him that they think were just like strangers trying to be helpful. Regardless, it pissed off the kidnappers and they never responded to him until they send another note.

So, I guess, well, meaning people, but they really botched this if the kidnappers ever even intended to follow through with this plan. Yeah, you know, that right now is going to be the big question. At this point, let's say the offenders bailed because they saw a scenario that was not in line with their instructions. Now it comes down to how much do they want that money? And if

It sounds like they communicate again. Is that what you said? Another letter comes in? Yes.

So here's what happens next. The report is that a little boy, after James gets home, runs to his door, rings the bell, and hands him a letter. Nobody's talked to this kid, but, you know, I had wondered, okay, how is James receiving letters so quickly? Nobody's been able to track that kid down, but he gets a letter almost immediately when he gets home. The letter says it didn't take long to see what you were up to. Every saloon in town knows how much we wanted money.

And where we told you to go, call off your detective bloodhounds. If you don't, you'll never see the baby again. If they ever get near us, the baby will be murdered. So you're right. They're the smartest kidnappers that we've encountered so far. So from a timing standpoint, you're saying that when James gets home to his house from this money drop, he's already got a letter being handed to him.

So the report is that there's a little boy who runs over with this letter and hand delivers it to him and then vanishes. So they're obviously watching him. Somebody's watching him. Okay, so think about this. You know, in this day and age, you know, you got cell phones, mobile phones. You know, in 1917, out in the middle of nowhere...

You know, how is somebody who sees him and then goes, oh, hold on, there's other headlights out there in the Ozarks, you know, 18 miles away. How is that information getting transmitted all the way back to Springfield, you know, that quickly?

I'm kind of wondering if they were watching him from the very beginning or very early on in the route and then saw the tale, you know, by, you know, good Samaritan citizens or sheriffs. Whoever. And just called it off at that point and then already had the note in hand by the time he got back, you know, they've given it to some kid, probably paid the kid, you know, $5 and say, go give this to this man when he comes home.

Mm-hmm. The letter that he got when he came home, basically saying, we know what you're doing and you better stop, also said, we will give you more instructions. But we're not sure if they ever do get more instructions because at some point, the sheriff is going to get a break in the case that doesn't have anything to do with these letters. What sounds like happened was James did this two more times. Every freaking time it gets out to the press. Yes.

And it obviously, you know, thwarts the plans of the kidnappers one time, they tell him, to arrange, listen to this, that James had been instructed in another letter to arrange for a sign atop a tall building in downtown Springfield to be illuminated when he starts out on his trip. But the press reports on it before this even happens. I don't know who the leak is. There might be various leaks there.

But, you know, probably the sheriff's department, I would guess. But he is not making contact, direct contact. He has the money. He's willing to do it. It sounds like the kidnappers want the money. But because there's so much outside interference, this is not happening. Well, kind of maybe stepping back to James receiving the letter from the boy after he does the trip. James...

is the one that is the controller of that information at that point in time. And so, of course, it's like, well, who is James communicating with, such as the sheriff, you know, and how is that information, you know, getting out? At a certain point, my expectation of James, let's say he goes through this process and it gets screwed up again outside of his control, I would think he would just naturally circle the wagon. Mm-hmm.

and not tell anybody what the next letter tells him to do because each time, you know, it's getting out. So that's interesting to me, you know, is that, you know, these other letters that he receives, are they direct handoffs to him? Are they also coming in through the bank again or a post office? And now you have potential multiple sources of leaks. Yeah.

The first, I believe, was the bank. And that was the one that was delivered by postal workers, apparently. And then I think the last two have been directly to him at his house. So, I mean, obviously, he's being watched.

So they seem very thorough, but they are pissed. They are tired of this, the kidnappers. Oh, sure. And in the meantime, the sheriff is conducting his own investigation, trying to get ahead of all this. They are asking everyone in Springfield where they were on the night of May 30th when Buddy was kidnapped. And they do a lot of canvassing, and they actually get a lead. There is a cabin at the edge of Springfield, and in that cabin is a man named Taylor Adams.

and he's married to a woman named Allie Adams. He is known as the town drunk. I'm sure there's a more PC way to say that, but he is, you know, he is somebody who is often inebriated and maybe considered a little bit of a pest. They have two adult sons, and that's who we're going to be focusing on. These guys are named Cletus and Maxie.

And they have a boarder named Claude. I don't know if you've done the math, but that's three. I was just starting to add them up on my fingers. And yes, I agree. That's three. That's three. I don't know why they, if this is who we're thinking of, I don't know why they would tell the truth.

There are kidnappers, I guess, who could be smart in some ways and not so smart in other ways. But I guess they were just explaining why they needed that particular amount of money. Yeah, in terms of, yeah, $2,000 each, so $6,000 total. Yeah. It's weird. It's almost like justifying, well, this is why we need this amount of money. They did say in one of the letters, the longer this takes for us to work this out, James, the more money we're going to ask for. So they had actually upped it to $10,000, which is about almost a quarter of a million today. Yeah.

So they were becoming very impatient and not to take up for the kidnappers. I understand why when everything is being published in the press and people are following their main mark here, it just seems very chaotic for everybody. Yeah, well, this is something that they could not have anticipated. They just want to get, you know, quick money, easy. It's turning out it's not so easy. And while they're waiting for the money, they've got this 14-month-old kid

And assuming that they didn't kill Buddy right away, they're now having to care for this 14-month-old while they go through all these processes to try to figure out, well, how can we get our money without being discovered? Yeah. They're in a cabin, which I can't imagine is palatial.

and they've got, you know, their parents and these two young men, and then they've got a border. So you're talking about five people in a cabin. So it'll be fascinating to me to see who knew about any of this, if this is what happens.

So now we go from me saying the kidnappers seem pretty bright with some of the decisions that they've made. And you've said, you know, some of the stuff that they've said for James to do makes sense. Now they start doing things that don't make sense, as far as I'm concerned, if these are our people. They are vague when the police who are canvassing and talking to everybody on earth about this story, they're vague about where they were on May 30th.

I can't imagine everybody has a solid alibi. There's, you know, no TV, but probably people are with their families, but they are unusually vague about really not even being able to say what they were doing in any realm. Claude has already been talking around town about being involved in two different ransom plots, not involving Buddy Keat.

He is mouthing off about trying to kidnap a local jeweler and a local munitions dealer, but both of those kidnappings fell through. This is the border, not the two sons. So now they're alarmed because they had heard rumors about this, the sheriff's department, and that's why they want to talk to Claude. I think they think it's, you know, a quink-a-dink knot that he's talking about kidnapping, and there's a kidnapped baby.

Well, I think, you know, if this group is responsible, anytime you have like this conspiracy amongst thieves, for law enforcement, that's what you hope for because there's a weak link there somewhere. At some point, somebody's going to either directly come to law enforcement because they feel that they're going to be targeted and they're scared about what's going to happen to them,

Or they're around town, they get drunk, and they start talking to their bar buddy. Scenarios like that, the tips are coming in. So inside this little shack, you've got five adults and potentially a 14-month-old. It seems like stress levels are going to go up.

Yes, I would say that's an understatement. The police, once they start getting information about what Claude is saying around town, that they were going to, you know, kidnap a jeweler and a munitions dealer, they start trying to figure out who their associates are, and they bring in seven people. They bring Claude, the boarder in, they bring all four members of the family, the parents,

a driver named George Walker, who doesn't work with them, and a cook named Sam McGinnis, who doesn't work for them. These are all people that they know. It's their inner circle. They're all arrested because the police say we cannot connect them to Buddy yet, but we are trying to connect them to these other two potential kidnappings that never happened.

In the course of questioning all seven of these people, which I assume they split them all up and questioned them, there is word from someone within this group that the plan was to take the jeweler in particular to an abandoned mansion. Can't get any creepier for our Halloween episode. An abandoned mansion outside the city called the Crenshaw Mansion. This is where police say, well, heck, let's go and see if Buddy is there.

And that will, of course, then connect Buddy to them. And, you know, hopefully he'll be alive. And they've thwarted this kidnapping. But that's where we are now. I mean, they just, it is one person who mouthed off that led to all of this.

Yeah, that's what happens. If you're going to commit a crime, don't get other people involved, right? Yeah. You know, most certainly if you want information security. You know, this is now, you know, you've got, let's say, these seven people separated being interviewed. I just hearken back to that Russell Crowe movie, L.A. Confidential, you know, where basically, I mean, I can easily see where a detective goes in to Cletus or Maxie,

and is like, Claude's spilling the beans here. Oh, yeah. You know, putting it all on you. And, you know, let's see how they respond. You know, because it's already known Claude's around town spouting off. So just blame Claude, you know, and say, hey, Claude's the one that's telling us everything. So how do you respond to that? Well, they are most concerned about trying to find Buddy alive.

So this is now June 6th. So we're thinking about a week or so later after he has been kidnapped, maybe eight days. A group that includes police officers and friends of the family go up to this mansion. And once they bring bloodhounds, thank goodness, with them,

The bloodhounds immediately pick up on his scent, Buddy's scent, once they get to this mansion. And remember, this is just one person saying this was the game plan that never happened. We were supposed to take this jeweler out to the mansion and wait there. They pick up on Buddy's scent, and the hounds eventually find a piece of Buddy's baby blanket inside the abandoned mansion. And

And they find an empty crib with clean sheets and a makeshift cot next to the crib, but they do not find Buddy. The group that they've arrested maintained they had nothing to do with this kidnapping, except obviously there's evidence that someone was keeping a baby at this abandoned mansion and they've already been connected to it.

So they can't find Buddy, but his baby blanket is there. So now we're going to get into the trigger warning because I know everybody knows where this is going, unfortunately. Three days later, on June 9th, they go and do another search of the mansion and the grounds and...

This time they find an old well. We're back with old wells. I feel like we do these stories a lot. They remove the stone cover, and when they do, they see one of the baby's feet sticking above the surface of the water about eight feet down. And here's the hard part, and then I want you to respond to that. His parents...

had heard a report saying that Buddy had been found alive. I mean, misinformation everywhere, and then they find out the truth, and it's, of course, heartbreaking for them. Authorities just say they thought that the kidnappers, whomever they are, and they're assuming it's this group, thought that the story had become too hot, and they killed the baby and gave up hopes of getting the ransom. So what do you think about all that? And then I have information about cause of death. It's a bad ending. Yeah, so...

The presence of the crib with a cot next to it tends to indicate that there was at least a thought that Buddy was going to be kept alive for a period of time. I would also be assessing, well, what else did they find? Is there dirty diapers? Is there, I don't know what kind of food back in 1917 a toddler would be eating, but is there evidence that Buddy was alive for a period of time? And this is going to be somewhat stereotypical, but you've got these seven adults

and only one of the adults is a woman, Allie. You know, was she the caretaker for Buddy? You know, I think that may be something where I could see if she's not involved in this scheme but is now being tasked with...

having to care for Buddy, she may be a weak link from an interview standpoint. I mean, she may have even bonded with this child. It's hard to say right now, was Buddy killed right away, you know, or did they hold Buddy for a period of time and then once things were starting to go sideways with all the public attention and...

And law enforcement involvement and the money drop-offs not working, did they just decide, okay, we got to cut bait and run. And the way they did that was, you know, kill Buddy in some manner and hide the body. And it's at a location that is separate from their living quarters. You know, it's at the Crenshaw Mansion, on the grounds of the Crenshaw Mansion versus back where their shed is, their cabin.

So let me tell you about the autopsy. The autopsy showed that he had been suffocated. They did not find any water in his lungs.

The medical examiner or whoever, coroner, whoever did the exam, said that he thought that Buddy had been dead for four or five days from when he was discovered, which would have meant, you know, the kidnappers were keeping him alive. And probably on the second attempt, they said, well, this is never going to work. And then they killed him. I was immediately questioning whether a body in the well for however many days, if they would really be able to get an accurate time of death. What do you think? Yeah.

Well, it's not going to be very accurate. If the pathologist is experienced, he's got a library in his head of all these bodies that he's done autopsies on under the various circumstances.

And so if he takes into account that this baby has been put into this well, it's been in the water for a period of time, even though this is a warm spring day, the well water is probably cool. So it's going to slow down some of the decomposition. And so that may extend out some of the indicators of length of time that Buddy has been dead. I would say that he's at least...

You know, his estimation of how long Buddy's been dead is probably within a reasonable window of time. It's not going to be spot on. Okay. So once the police find Buddy's body, it turns into mayhem, as you can guess. The case attracts a lot of attention, right?

there is a point where a mob of people actually get their hands on Claude, the boarder, the one who's really been talking to the police. After chasing the sheriff all the way to Stockton, Missouri, this mob, which is thousands of people, stake Claude and tie a noose around his neck and string him up three times trying to get him to admit that he kidnapped and killed the baby. But, of course, you know, press in 1917, they said at least 20,000 people. I'm not sure about that.

But he maintains his innocence, and each time he passes out, they aren't managing to murder him or anything. Finally, he is given back to the sheriff, and all seven people are arrested immediately.

Then it gets broken up really in an interesting way. Claude and the four members of the Adams family are all charged with kidnapping, not murder. And eventually they drop the charges against the mom and one of the brothers. Taylor and Cletus plead guilty and they get sentenced to 15 years in prison. Claude says he was not guilty. He pleads not guilty.

And he goes to trial. And here's the interesting part. One, a handwriting expert, thank goodness for trials, otherwise I would have no stories at all. A handwriting expert says that Claude's handwriting matched the handwriting on the ransom notes. And the most important thing, a country club employee testified that he saw Claude follow the Keats home from the dance that night. Oh. Yep.

So, okay, so the father and Cletus... And one son, yep. ...plead guilty, and then Claude is held to answer. He's going through trial, and now you've got some evidence, handwriting as well as witness evidence being presented against him. Yep. He is found guilty and sentenced to 35 years in prison. And he had denied it, denied it, denied it. So after he's found guilty—now tell me what you think about what he says—after he's found guilty...

He actually acknowledges his involvement, and he writes newspaper articles where he claims that there were two other people, not any of the other six other people, were involved in the kidnapping. He says that Buddy's death was an accident. Of course he's going to say that. He said that Buddy had been given laudanum to keep him quiet, and he accidentally overdosed. And then there were other newspapers that say, well, you know, they held a rag over the baby's mouth to muffle his cries, etc.

which seems a little bit more consistent with the autopsy findings. But, I don't know, laudanum, I don't even know. They would show up in an autopsy, I guess, if they did toxicology, right? Yeah, you know, I'm not sure that they would be able to truly detect laudanum. The autopsy results, a pathologist having a ruling of asphyxia, there is, you know, diagnostic features that the pathologist is seeing. It takes a little bit of force, you know, to...

you know, show how the, in the inside of your gums on your mouth, on your lips, how the teeth are leaving, bruising, or cutting into the,

You know, the inside surfaces of your lips, you know, abrasions around your nose. Depending on how the asphyxia is occurring, you could even have petechiae form in the eyes. You know, so it's something where I would say this is likely more of an intentional act of

of homicide through asphyxia than accidental by trying to muffle the cries. There was a head wound on Buddy, but the medical examiner said it's unclear whether it was an intentional head wound or one where he was dropped eight feet down and banged his head. So I don't know if you can read into that at all. You know, well, that would be tough just because Buddy has been, you know, in this water for a period of time. So some of what I'd be looking for was there hemorrhaging in the wound

indicating that Buddy's heart was still pumping. Well, because Buddy's floating in this water, that hemorrhaging, the blood flows, everything else has probably been, in essence, washed away. So the pathologist is, for the most part, he's handicapped trying to make an assessment on when that head wound happened.

Well, just to wrap up this story, Claude is in prison for 21 years, and then he's released, and he lives 24 more years in Kansas City as a locksmith. Oh, wow. Ironically. Yeah. And then James, Buddy's dad, died at the age of 61 in 1945. So he lived almost 30 years past this. Buddy's mom lived for the rest of her life on that house on that street until she died in 1980. Wow.

And, of course, the family then immediately put bars on the windows. Jimmy, who we've not talked about at all, who I don't know why this is a big deal, but it feels like a big deal to me. He went on to do great things. This is the three-year-old who was not kidnapped. He went to Princeton. He went to Harvard Law. He got a Bronze Star in the Battle of the Bulge. And he became a circuit judge in Springfield. Wow.

And he died in 2005. So I was trying to think of what the lesson here was. We don't know anything really about the kidnappers, why they, if they needed the money out of greed or what, who was really involved. I don't know for me is what struck me about this story is the just intentional insertion of the press and of the people around them that just, I don't know if they would have gotten Buddy back alive.

After that first one, I think they might have. I mean, if they're trying to keep this kid alive, I think their intention is to get the money and return him, but I could be wrong. Yeah. I think that that's the hard part because law enforcement often gets criticized for being very tight-lipped regarding cases. And of course...

You have journalists, reporters who want the details and are working their sources. And, you know, there is a balance for sure, particularly for, you know, protecting the case. And it's a fine line to walk. And in this case, it seems like the journalists were going more after the sensationalistic aspects of

And nobody was putting a lid on them in terms of, hey, I'll give you an exclusive, but don't release this detail right now or we're going to have a dead 14-month-old. You know, that's the reality. Too many people involved is what it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah, what a sad story. The kidnappings, I always find to be

Very dramatic, very detailed, lots of interesting plots and instructions. But ultimately, I don't think we've had a kidnapping end well for us so far. We've had...

you know, the Lindbergh baby. We've had that executive. Remember the man who was riding with his former secretary and he got dragged out of the car? I mean, we've just had several of those where things have ended tragically and unfortunately this is what happened in this case too. But I've never seen, I feel like the press so aggressively

aggressive in handling this. And this is yellow journalism. This is, you know, the Hearst papers and everything moving forward. So it's an illustration of it and what a tragedy becomes of it. No, for sure. You know, Buddy lost his life. And I mean, the entire family is living with that loss. And for what? $6,000, which of course, you know, was more money back then. But, you

You know, it just shows that there's individuals out there that are willing to do the most horrific things to make a buck. Well, I need a break from children who have been kidnapped and murdered. So we are not going to be talking about that next week, thankfully. I can guarantee you that.

Okay. And then we'll have, you know, we have Halloween coming up. And so I hope that you are getting your knife out and are going to get ready to carve a jack-o'-lantern that you will not put on the front stoop because of those stinking deer of yours. And you will have a wonderful draw up to the Halloween season. Yeah. No, I'm actually looking forward to the trick-or-treaters and we'll see if it's a white Halloween or not here in Colorado. Oh, shut up, Paul. White Halloween. I would love that. God.

Unless you're out there trick-or-treating. I mean, I'm crossing my fingers for a under 90 degree Halloween. Oh, well, there's that. Yes. Okay. Well, I will see you next week. All right. Sounds good.

This has been an Exactly Right production. For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbonessources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research by Maren McClashen, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson. Our mixing engineer is Ben Talladay. Our theme song is by Tom Breifogle. Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at BuriedBonesPod. Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now. And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now. ♪