EP57: Serial Killer Robert Pickton (Part 2)
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Investigator. Yeah. Oh, wow. You're always so impressed when I like immediately respond to your quips. I shouldn't. I'm not. I mean, listen, I'd be impressed if anybody did that. So don't take it too special. I'm impressed by people who are quick. I get it. I value that highly. Cool. People who are quick and funny and smart. So you like hanging out with yourself, basically. Listen, everyone pales in comparison to me, obviously. Yeah.

Yes. I do appreciate somebody who's just like not scared to do something. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? I do. Fearless, brave. Yep. Courageous. That's all words I would use to describe myself.

You thought I was going to say you. Humble is not one of the adjectives. Well, I am a hero, as we know. We do know. We do. So we're about to do part two of the Robert Pickton pig farmer most highly requested case we've ever, ever had in our almost one year of doing this. Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised that this is the case that was most requested. Really? Yeah. I think a lot of people are thinking it's something more modern, like the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case.

Because we've gotten a lot of requests for that. Just like more headlining case, more today cases. We get those when they break. This one has been coming into the DMs since we started. Totally. Like nonstop, steady. People are just asking for it. Yeah, to a point where you were requesting it from me. Yeah, I was requesting it for them. So they shut up.

Just kidding. I just wanted to know what the hype was about. Yeah, sure. This must be a crazy case that people are asking about this. And so far, as we heard in part one, there's a lot of gruesome mind-bending details. Yeah, and part one was really just laying the foundation. I mean, it wasn't pretty. Obviously, it was...

terrible but part two is going to get into the investigation which I find interesting obviously and it's going to get into the psychology of Robert Pickton and we're going to be talking and highlighting some of the victims which is top for us to do on psychopedia and yeah I think it's going to hopefully all come together and end this horrible journey with Robert Pickton close this chapter

If you are enjoying the podcast and you love it and you want more of it and you don't know where to go, go to patreon.com slash psychopedia pod where you can hear episodes of Psychopedia Unhinged, the newest Tankopedia, which will be out by the time this is out, which is where I present a case to investigators later. That's available for all levels, not just semen demons. Also on Patreon, every 500 semen demons that sign up, we were using 500 as the number to choose someone to come sit in on a live. Right?

We're still going to do that, but there may be some surprises in between now and 1500. That's exciting. Like 1026 or something like that. Surprise for me too, because I never know what you have up your sleeve. And we just had Jill from New Gerbil sit in on the Chris Hansen case, which I'm not going

I know that I think I've mentioned, but just to give her another little shout out. She's amazing. Speaking of shout outs, at the end of this episode, we're going to bring back reading some Patreon names because I missed it. Investigator Slater missed it. I know you guys missed it. One person got in my head and was like, two.

It's like, too long. Intro's too long. It's always that one person. It really is. It's the same thing with reviews. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but we all know I grapple with security issues. But like, we could have like a million great reviews and then there's one that's not great and that's the one I'm seeing. Yeah, it's not even bad. It's just not. Right. Why are we like this? We're human beings. Okay, fair. Fair enough. Without further ado,

I think we should get a doozy into the case and hear where all this came from with this guy and what happened after he was found out. So first, I'm going to provide a brief summary of part one, but I want to mention that this is in no way a substitute for listening to the entire part one episode. Please go listen to that if you haven't already. But here's a little summary. Okay.

So what we discussed in part one was Robert Pickton's profoundly dysfunctional upbringing with a domineering cold mother and a distant abusive father. He was raised on a farm surrounded by death and slaughtering, constantly smelled of pig shit and was teased relentlessly. He dropped out of school at 14 and rarely, if ever, left the farm or socialized beyond the people in his very fucked up family.

So that's sort of his home life. As an adult, Robert came into some money and he began to frequent an area in Vancouver called the Downtown Eastside or Skid Row, where he'd regularly pick up sex workers, most of whom were indigenous women, which we talked about at length, and then murder them in his trailer on his isolated farm in Coquitlam, Canada. Yeah. And he had...

holes dug for burying animal body parts. Yes, exactly. Because he was a butcher. Yeah. So he did have like real ways of disposing of real animal parts that weren't like used. Yeah. And then we find out obviously that he, it was a multi-purpose situation. So this went on for over a decade where he would

bring sex workers back to his trailer, and then they would mysteriously disappear. And law enforcement chose to largely ignore the statistically staggering amount of sex worker disappearances. Yeah. Which, of course, enabled Robert to continue hunting, abducting, and murdering innocent women. Averaged out to one a month.

If I'm not mistaken, between him and the other person who killed 48. Gary Ridgway. Yeah. And this guy did 49. It's, I mean, it's unbelievable. It is unbelievable. So after Robert would strangle his victims, he would hang their bodies up in his slaughterhouse, which I detailed for you guys at the end of last episode. He would bleed them out. He would gut them. He would dismember them. And then he would feed their remains to his pigs.

Eventually, law enforcement acknowledged the fact that they had a serious problem on their hands because it really, they weren't. They just were not acknowledging this.

And they created a task force in 1998 called Project Amelia to focus on the disappearing women. So that's where we sort of left off with part one. So everything from this point forward is new info. Okay, cool. By this point in the case, it's February 23rd, 1999. And a man named Bill Wilson, who was a roadside birdhouse and whirlygigs salesman. Shout out to Bill W. People who know what I'm talking about know what I'm talking about. I do not. He was a whirlybird salesman? No.

Birdhouse salesman and whirly gig. Do you know what a whirly gig is? Oh. Obviously not. No, I'm not a hundred. You know those like little mini spinny like windmill. Yeah. They're like plastic. That you blow on? Oh, okay. Yeah, you can put them in your garden or you put them on your front lawn, whatever. That's what a whirly gig is. That was a profession back then. Evidently.

What do you do for a living? You know, those things that fucking, you know, the things with the whirly. Do you want one or not? Trying to make a living. Yeah. Wow. So he was selling those and he pulled over his car near a Canadian swamp to get some water to wash off his car. Out of the swamp? To clean his car. I know it's a little counterintuitive. How clean was that water?

So he made a gruesome discovery. This is the point. Oh. Because there, perched upon a bed of rocks, was half of a human skull. When the police investigated, they observed that the skull had been intentionally sawed in half from the back of the head to the front with noticeable uneven cut lines indicating it was a hack job, meaning not the work of, say, like a medical professional. Right. Yeah.

Adipose tissue.

Oh, you couldn't help me out there with that word. Bigorexia. Nobody realizes it took me five times to say that word. Yeah. It indicated that the person had been deceased for 12 to 24 months prior to the discovery of that skull. Oh, but only in the swamp. Exactly. Which you said the point is that he found a skull. The point to me is still a little bit that he was washing his car with swamp water. Okay. That can be your takeaway. I'd like to hear from our listeners on that.

So this peculiar state of preservation meant that the skull must have been stored somewhere between the victim's death

and the eventual discovery by Wilson. Yeah. As the investigation proceeded, the skull became a significant piece of evidence, almost like a silent witness to the macabre events that had transpired. Keep the details of this discovery on ice as we delve deeper into the case. And circle back. And we will circle. I didn't say it. You did. You said delve deeper. I like delve deeper better than circle back, even though they don't mean the same thing. So forget I said anything. I was just going to say duly noted, but never mind.

While the investigative team, which was, again, Project Amelia, tasked with figuring out why sex workers were disappearing in droves, grappled with limited resources, they had indeed received several crucial tips along the way. Among these were insights from Bill Hiscox, who we mentioned last week, along with information from two additional key figures.

a man named Scott Chubb, who was a former employee of Robert and Dave Pickton, who ended up becoming a paid police informant, as well as a woman named Lynn Ellingson, who, if you recall, was living on Robert's farm and physically witnessed a victim with red toenails hanging from a meat hook in Robert's slaughterhouse. I forgot. Can you just remind me what year this is taking place in? Well, this discovery of the skull was 1999. Bro, yeah.

This guy was a Whirlygig salesman in 1999? And a Birdhouse salesman. Are we still on this? How could you not be? I thought for some reason when you said Whirlygig, I was like, it's 1920. Who cares? It is what it is.

It's 1999. And this guy is out door to door trying to sell people fucking pinwheels that I'm so hung up on that. I'm going to just... Do you feel anything about the human skull that was found that was clearly stored somewhere else before it was discovered in the swamp? Oh, yeah. Big time. Okay. Just wanted to get a temperature read on your mental state over there. Yeah, I'm real, real, really thinking about that. Real hung up on that. But the other stuff is... It got you.

The police were also reminded of Robert's past charge for attempted murder related to an incident with Sandra Gail Ringwald, with whom he had engaged in a knife fight that led to severe injuries for both parties. That's right. We talked about last week, who subsequently received emergency medical attention at the same hospital. Yeah.

Crazy. This history now positioned Robert as a significant person of interest in the investigation into the missing women, which was gaining traction as more and more people started paying attention to the atrocities happening in Vancouver. It's been 10 years. It's been quite long enough. The case was even featured on a segment of America's Most Wanted on March 24th, 2001, which suggested that Vancouver might be harboring a modern-day Jack the Ripper.

Yeah, might be. Might be. Definitely was. Should we do Jack the Ripper? Because I don't know anything about him. Yeah, let's do him.

So the Vancouver Police Department stepped up their game, at last. Years after Dr. Kim Rosmo, remember him, initially suggested that a serial killer might be operating in Vancouver. That was the profiler guy, right? Yes, the geo profiler. Very good. His theory evolved from a mere possibility into a stark probability. His analysis, which singled out the involvement of one serial killer through victim profiles...

The timing of their disappearances and the specific locale of their last known whereabouts was alarmingly precise. Yeah. So if only people would have given him the time of day. Dr. Rosmo's insights further proposed that the killer was likely someone familiar with the area, advising investigators to search for cluster body sites. Okay, that's a singular location where multiple victims could be discovered.

which is a pattern often observed with serial killers. Really? Yes. One body in a cluster dump site often leads to the finding of additional victims within a proximity of 50 meters or less. Wait, so that's common for them to do that? Cluster sites, yes. Wow, I would not think that at all. I guess it makes sense if they're creatures of habit and they are in repetition mode.

Yep. Yeah. In response to these chilling insights and the growing concern over the missing women, Project Amelia investigators took a proactive yet somber step by beginning to collect DNA samples from sex workers in the downtown Eastside.

This grim, albeit practical, measure was implemented in anticipation of the worst-case scenario. What, hoping to get a match on multiple women? Remember, bodies were not turning up. They were disappearing. So they started to collect DNA in case bodies started to turn up eventually. Oh, that's why they did it? Yeah, kind of like we're getting ahead of the curve, guys. You're in some serious trouble. Let me take your DNA so if a body turns up, I can figure out if it's you.

I thought they were looking for, let's say, four, five, six, seven women all had the same DNA on them from one of these guys. Oh, I see. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's not what they were doing, but that's interesting that you thought that. So much darker the other way. Meanwhile, the surveillance team maintained a close watch on Robert, aware of his movements, but unable to catch him in any act whatsoever.

of criminal behavior, which is kind of obvious because he was like aware that they were watching him. Oh yeah. Right. Now watching him was one thing, but for law enforcement to take decisive action, a mere observed correlation between Pickton's activities and the disappearance of women was insufficient. So they couldn't just say, okay, we're watching you. Bodies aren't disappearing. So it must mean it's because you stopped, right? Yeah.

That's not enough, obviously, right? They required concrete proof, tangible evidence that could justify a deep search of the Picton property, and a reason to go in. To address this need, a new, more focused approach was adopted. In the year 2000, which is when I graduated high school... In the year 2000... What is that? Conan O'Brien. Oh.

I don't know. That just sounded like some kind of like church service. It was very churchy. Oh, was it? Okay. So in the year 2000, the Vancouver Police Department established a four-person investigative team under fresh leadership. And they named this the Missing Women's Task Force, which is like not very original. Yeah.

As an initial step in what became an exhaustive first step, this team delved into thousands of pages of documentation and meticulously analyzed both solved and unsolved cases of murders and sexual assaults, all in a pursuit of the evidence needed to take decisive action against Pickton. Building on the momentum generated by the establishment of the Missing Women's Task Force,

the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or the Mounties, initiated their own parallel investigation into the missing women. Oh, good. Named Project Evenhanded and led by Staff Sergeant Don Adam, this task force, which was supplemented with three additional homicide detectives,

threw itself into the painstaking task of analyzing over 1,348 tips that had accumulated over the years. That nobody followed up on? Exactly. Operating under the belief that the key to identifying the serial killer lie within this information. Operating under the belief that identifying the serial killer required looking for him. And that the information has been here all along. Oh my God.

They also proactively collected DNA from 22 individuals considered potential suspects, but not Robert Pickton, which had me confused because if they were watching him and he was a suspect, why not get his DNA? It's so, like, obviously it's so easy, and I'm not saying that you're doing this, but I'm even here thinking this, like,

Just arrest the guy. Right. We all know he did it. Exactly. We have that benefit. But before then, they didn't know. And I was thinking, like, I'm kind of glad that they aren't able to just arrest people and pin murders on them. That would be horrible. Right. I mean, you know, we are... No, they do it anyway sometimes. We are innocent until or if proven guilty. Yeah. Right? And having sort of a hunch isn't enough, obviously, right? Yeah. Hunches come from all different areas of the brain. Yes. Biases. Nice.

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Then, in September 2001, the Vancouver Sun published 11 tell-all articles that brought widespread attention to the critical situation of women living in Vancouver's poorest neighborhoods and told the stories of many of the missing women. These articles also publicly and unapologetically criticized the VPD's handling of the cases and highlighted failures and even negligence on the part of the authorities, which sparked a huge public outcry.

to the wave of public concern and scrutiny that followed, the Vancouver Police Department and related authorities was suddenly expanded and now included 16 members from both the RCMP and the VPD with

with a promise of more resources and a bigger budget. Yeah, fine, fine. We'll start working. Jesus. We'll throw a few bucks at this. It's cold out. This marked a critical step forward, though, in the investigation, so I'll take it. Okay. Showing a clear commitment to addressing the shortcomings exposed by the Vancouver Sun and seeking justice for the victims and their families.

Sergeant Don Adam, in an effort to bolster the investigation, accepted help from the Seattle police officers who worked on the case of Gary Ridgway, the infamous Green River killer who was convicted of killing at least 40 women, many of whom were sex workers. Drawing on the Seattle team's experiences, a comprehensive three-point plan was formulated in the fall of 2001 to nab Robert Pickton.

The first point of the plan involved the formation of a proactive group of 12 officers deployed in the downtown Eastside area with a mission to build trust with the sex workers.

And with the important goal of making it easier for them to share information with the police about any dangerous johns they came across. And this approach also aimed at keeping a vigilant eye on these women to ensure that any of their disappearances would be quickly noticed. The second strategic point in the three-point plan was to gather DNA samples.

This involved collecting genetic material from the missing women's family members, okay, and or the personal items that belonged to the disappeared women. So, you know, hairbrushes, toothbrushes, things like that. They even obtained samples of pap smears from some of the women that had been stored at the British Columbia Cancer Center, which...

all in an effort to create a robust DNA database for the investigation. Wow. And then the third point focused on developing a detailed suspect list generated from an exhaustive review of over 4,000 cases.

including sexual assaults and attempted murders, from which they also obtained DNA samples. Then they ranked 600 suspects according to their priority level, listing Robert Pickton as a priority one. Oh, so they got there. They got there. Yeah. Pop quiz. Let's see if...

you can get here. Nice. What else did law enforcement begin to do at this stage of the investigation? So hold on. They're finding DNA samples from the women and their family members. They made a suspect list, priorities, and they're going through cases for 4,000 cases for information. You're doing great. Okay, good.

Okay, so in case you already forgot the question. No, no, what's the other thing they're doing? Okay. A, arrest sex workers in an effort to get them off the street and into safety. B, hold regular meetings with the families of the disappeared women. C, increase the amount of money sex workers receive from social services in exchange for their cooperation in the investigation. Hmm. And this came from who? The VPD or RCMP or both? At this point, it's all hands on deck. Um...

Arrested them? No. That was the worst one, so I'm glad that's out of the way.

Even though, like, I understand the motivation. Give them more money? Nope. They had meetings with the family? Cool. This was a big deal. Was it? Yes. They held meetings with the families of the disappeared women, not only to gather more information, but also to mend relations and seek forgiveness for past oversights because the only way forward they believed was to kind of correct some of the wrongdoings of the... All right, you can't correct it because so many lives were lost because of their negligence,

but to pave a path forward. Okay. Importantly, this period marked a crucial turning point in the investigation as the VPD and the RCMP formally recognized and classified for the first time the disappearance of the 46 women as being homicide cases, which was a big deal. They didn't even have bodies. Even though there's no body. Exactly. Nobody, no crime, according to Taylor Swift. This recognition... You okay?

Yeah. What song is that from? Nobody, No Crime by Taylor Swift. That's the name of the song? Yes.

Okay, Taylor. It's a good song. It's a good song. I bet it is. Everything she does is amazing. So this recognition, calling them, referring to them, acknowledging them as homicide cases, marked a significant step forward in the commitment of justice for the victims and unified all parties involved in the effort. Yeah. Now with all systems in place and all investigative and lay players operating as one cohesive team at last,

From law enforcement to sex workers to the victims' families to media outlets, it was time to find the motherfucker responsible for these crimes and bring him to justice. Robert Pig-ton. Yes. Finally, on January 25th, 2002, a breakthrough occurred.

Constable Richard Kim and Officer Nathan Wells were approached by a man who I mentioned earlier named Scott Chubb, who offered to provide critical information on Robert Pickton in exchange for a fee. If you remember, Chubb used to work for Robert and Dave Pickton, and he disclosed to law enforcement the fact that illegal, unregistered firearms existed in Robert's trailer.

Furthermore, he chillingly recounted how Robert once offered to pay him $1,000 to fatally inject Lynn Ellingston, she's the one who saw the body hanging in the slaughterhouse, to inject her with window washer fluid in order to stage her death as an overdose. Overdose of what? Window washer fluid? I mean, like a toxicology report wouldn't be done. 2002, bro. Yeah. Yeah. So...

Scott Chubb came forward because he knew he would get a fee in return for his information. And he knew that Robert Pickton was a suspect. He also truly believed that Robert Pickton was responsible for what he's now seeing all over the media. Yeah. So he comes forward with this information.

Knowing, of course, that Robert Pickton was previously listed or currently listed as a priority one suspect, the authorities understood the gravity of this lead and were prepared to act decisively. Good. Just one week after Chubb's revelation on February 1st, 2002, at precisely 7.40 p.m., a search warrant was obtained.

Time was of the essence and a specialized team was quickly put together. Forgoing the standard requirement for a detailed written plan, they opted for an immediate raid. Blitz. On Picton's farm. That night? Yeah. Or the next day? That night. A convoy of marked police cars advanced to the Picton farm, their headlights piercing the darkness, sirens silent, heightening the tension. That sounds cool as hell. Yeah, it does, right? It's like a badass scene. The

The team, with a palpable blend of determination and adrenaline, moved stealthily toward the heart of the operation. Five officers with weapons drawn gathered at the door of Robert's trailer, poised for action. The moment... He lives in a trailer. Which is insane. He had so much money and so much land. He's just a character. And that's not a compliment in this case. The moment Robert Pickton cracked open the door, the air was split with the forceful declaration...

Police. Search warrant. Boom, boom, boom. Open the door. ATS. Not a freeze marked by creativity, but one heralding the imminent collapse of Canada's most notorious killer. That was a DMX thing, by the way. Oh. Give me what I like what you do about from DMX. What? You bark. Oh. I don't know.

I can't do it right now. Oh, what was that? That was a little polite growl. Thank you. I wasn't going to do that. I was trying to bark high like he does because he has a high-pitched bark like my old dog, Ollie. So do it. I can't. My voice won't go there. Okay. But I know how to bark. I know. That little purr you gave us a second ago. No, that was like a... Stop it. Just didn't make it for me. It's embarrassing. Okay.

In rat. Handcuffed and soothed.

Handcuffed and subdued, he was arrested for the possession of prohibited and restricted firearms. Because remember, that's what they had the search warrant for. Oh my God. This moment wasn't just a procedural arrest. It was the dramatic culmination of years of fear and injustice. The turning point where the shadows began to recede and the reign of terror was finally confronted.

During the initial search of Robert's bedroom, investigators uncovered a disturbing array of items. Among these were a photograph displaying a pair of handcuffs adorned with fake tiger fur, stained with what was later confirmed to be human blood, as well as an actual pair of handcuffs covered in red fur. Did they find a pink spiky backpack? No, Tank, they did not.

All right, because he doesn't have enough style to have my backpack. That rat-faced fuck. They also found several pieces of women's jewelry, a photograph of a woman, and various papers bearing the names Dina Taylor and Heather Bottomley. Heather had been reported missing in April of 2001. Can I ask a question? Yeah. It's just something that is kind of bothering me. So does everyone get caught pretty much for the most part? Or is it one of those things where like,

we have no idea how many people have gotten away with murder because they don't ever get on the radar of law enforcement. Think of how many cold cases there are. That's how many. Yeah. I mean, stupid question. No, it's not a stupid question at all. And I definitely obviously don't have the statistics in front of me to like back up what I'm saying with facts. Yeah. But there are so many cold cases which show you that those cases were unsolved, meaning presumably that the perpetrator was never caught. My,

My second thought was if somebody is a true quote unquote murderer, cold blooded murderer, they're probably doing it for one of the reasons that you've gone over process, uh, product, whatever. Mission oriented, right? Mission oriented. And if somebody kills somebody accidentally or out of, you know, passion or anger or whatever it is, maybe.

Maybe they never repeat it, but that's not what we're talking about here. I'm talking about people who go out and kill as a sport. I feel like they must always get caught eventually because... I think a lot of them do because of a reason that I can't say because it's a pop quiz that comes later. Oh, nice. Yeah. So we definitely come back to this.

So in terms of what was found in his bedroom, because I'm just getting started. Yeah. Additional findings included a woman's purse, a blue box containing a flare gun modified to fire 12-gauge shells, numerous large cable ties, two dildos, multiple vibrators, a box labeled G-spots. Oh, we found him? Found it? I don't...

Wow. This guy's not all bad, huh? A whole box of them. He's got a treasure trove of information humanity's been seeking forever.

a tube of lubricating gel, peaches and cream whipped cream body dessert topping, body fizz sizzling cinnamon massage oil, an electric massager sheathed in cellophane, three belts, an inflatable pig humorously dubbed the fuckable pig, a collection of assorted kitchen knives, and a silversmith and Wesson 22 revolver wrapped in plastic.

This revolver had a curved plastic dildo stretched over its barrel and contained a bullet in the chamber.

Further discoveries included a glass container filled with women's hair barrettes, a pair of women's running shoes, and an orange flow vent inhaler bearing the name Serena Abbotsway, who vanished a year earlier. They also located two syringes filled with a blue substance resembling antifreeze. Oh, he was doing that. Yeah, I think so. I mean, he was ready for it.

By the way, Dina Taylor, who I mentioned earlier, was one of the names found on a piece of scrap paper or multiple pieces of scrap paper. She was closely linked to the case through DNA evidence found on 113 items throughout Robert's house. And it's believed that she played a role in aiding Robert to locate victims. Oh, she was kind of like a little sidekick. Like a henchman. Yeah. Now, she was arrested eventually, but she was not charged with any crimes. But that's who Dina Taylor was.

So by 9.53 p.m. on the night of this search... And when they got the warrant at 7.40? Yeah. Well, again, they're only searching a trailer. That's it. I keep forgetting. That's it. The atmosphere among the investigators was one of stunned silence as all of them were in a state of nauseated shock. They went in looking, right? Like the firearm search warrant was like their excuse in, their foot in the door, but nobody was prepared to find anything.

Yeah. Yeah.

And on Wednesday, February 6, 2002, after obtaining this search warrant, Robert Pickton's farm was officially designated the largest crime scene in Canadian history, with the investigation's costs nearing $70 million. No. Yep. The site was swiftly enclosed with fences, illuminated by lights, and monitored by cameras to preserve the integrity of the crime scene, which was considered everything within the four corners of their property.

A multidisciplinary team was assembled composed of pathologists, dental and DNA experts, morgue examination teams, and forensics identification specialists. Assistance was also sourced from an eight-person unit from the Provincial Auto Theft Task Force and the RCMP's Evidence Recovery Unit. So it was like all...

All hands on deck. They went from not doing anything to... Exactly. Yeah. To every department, every unit, every force. I mean, good. Good is right. But it's like they must have been... I don't know. They must have just felt fucking so inadequate retroactively for like having done absolutely nothing for 10 years while these indigenous women sex workers are disappearing at a rate that truly I don't even know anything about anything. I feel like anybody...

Six months into it, six people have gone missing in the past six months, all from the same type of demographic. Maybe we should look into it. Somebody might have a thing for these people. Most people involved in the lack of investigation that occurred became very involved after the fact, even after they retired.

and maintained relationships with the families and really, really helped. And they were apologetic and they really sort of face on accepted their responsibility in not doing enough. I don't know what these people are doing. There's one public statement made and I don't have the name of the person who made it. I'm sorry, but it was somebody official within the VPD, I believe. And he made a public statement after all of this was over and he said something like,

I still think that we did everything we could at the time. And I wanted to ask you something about that, Tank. And it's not to like put you on the spot or to like be contentious at all. Oh, I know what's coming. But this made me think of you instantly when I read that quote. I wish I had it word for word in front of me, but you can see where I'm going. Yeah. The police force were negligent.

They had all of the signs in the world, more than signs. They had really proof that something was happening because they had disappearing human beings. And yet they largely did nothing. So I want to ask you. Did they do the best with the tools they had at the time? That's my question. Yeah. You're saying yes? Oh, yeah. How?

Because I'm assuming, I'm assuming a lot right here. So when I say tools, I don't always mean good things. I just mean part of the makeup of the person at the time. There was what I imagined to be

severe biases towards sex workers, indigenous people in those police officers that were like, whatever, we'll fucking, we'll figure it out if, you know, if when. So I'm not saying that's a good tool, but that is in their makeup of decision-making and that's not my best, but it's their best. Can it just be a bad decision without it being the best decision that they could make? At the time? Yeah. I don't, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like,

Why do we strip people of their like agency to make a bad choice? I'm not saying they're not responsible. No, I completely understand. But I don't...

Again, respectfully, because I totally respect your viewpoint. You always get me on your side eventually. So here's the situation that you're painting or the picture that you're painting. You're saying that these people, the cops who said we'll figure it out if when, had to believe that this was a problem. They could fix it. It was going to continue happening. And in the face of that truth, even though like let's say that they didn't have a thing for indigenous people or sex workers.

All of that, they would have said, ah, fuck it. I just don't see people doing that. I don't see people being able to make the wrong decision according to their values. People don't make decisions that go against their values, typically. Their values just kind of suck. What about your job as a cop, as a police officer? You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, that all sucks. Yeah, so you had the tools, you had the badge.

You could have done worse. And the guns are not the tools I'm talking about. I know. Internal decision making environmental tools. I just feel like it takes responsibility and free will. It doesn't sort of allow people to just be bad people doing bad things. It gives them like an out. I don't think so at all. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I know. I know that. I don't care what the motivation is. Just like I always say, if I relapse, I start drinking, I kill somebody in a drunk driving accident. Don't even begin to let me try and say, but, but this at the, but, but like, here's a decision you made. You are the person we have to

We have your social security number. We can prove this is you as a person. You were driving the car. This person is dead. You have to pay the consequence with something that's going to suck for you. So I don't believe I should be able to say, but I was, you know, I was making the best decision I could at the time. Right. That doesn't absolve anybody. So you're saying that obviously they still need to be held accountable. Yeah. Just where they were when they made those choices. Yeah. I don't, I never meant to intimate that it absolves people of responsibility. Okay.

I think maybe I took it that way a little bit, to be honest. I think so. Okay. Well, I'm sorry. That was a bit, you were doing the best you could at the time. Oh my God. Couldn't I just been a fucking idiot? No. I know. I know.

The investigation spans several locations on the Picton property, including the slaughterhouse, Robert's mobile home, a second immobile mobile home, a garage, a workshop, barn, various old sheds, and the original Picton residence, marking a pivotal movement in the pursuit of justice. Can I make a point here real quick? Please, please. About the mobile homes? Yeah. So I kept saying, like, I can't believe he just lives in a trail. He's got this, all this money, he's balling in all this property, and he just...

When we did the RV trip and we were in there for a month, when we got home, I specifically remember thinking like,

shit, I got to go out of my room to go to the bathroom or to go get a water. Like I just, you get out of bed in the RV and you reach for the cabinet and then you reach for the refrigerator. You know, you're not walking at all. Everything's so close. My dream is to have a tiny house. No shit. Yeah. It'll be a big house for you. Fuck off. Normal size house for everybody else. You're so funny. Okay. Here's what they found across all...

all of those locations on the Picton property. Okay. First, a decapitated pig head was discovered just rotting on a table in the slaughterhouse as well as decomposing pig carcasses hanging from the ceiling. Yeah, butcher or no butcher, that's gross. They also found a Miss Lady Flexible Multi-Speed Stimulator in the slaughterhouse. Wait, a what? Miss Lady Speed Multiple Speed Flexible Stimulator. The fuck is that? It's a vibrator. What?

Why does it have so many words describing it? I mean, it's fancy.

Heavy equipment was used to sift through 383,000 cubic yards of soil in search of human remains. Large conveyor belts were being used to sift through all the tons of soil, going as deep as 30 feet down, and over 100 forensic specialists were employed to analyze the contents. Picture that. Like, picture how many people were there. It's like a city.

They collected 200,000 DNA samples from various body parts and bones that were found in the pig styes, which broke new ground for forensics. They found what? DNA? 200,000 DNA samples. Oh my goodness. Amongst the findings within the soil were bloodstained clothing and pieces of human bone, teeth, toes, heels, and rib bones, to be specific.

They also found two human heads inside one of the farm freezers, as well as a rib bone that had DNA matching the skull that was found by Bill Wilson in the Canadian swamp. Wow.

It was later determined that the Jane Doe, to whom both the rib and the skull had once belonged, was killed somewhere between 1992 and 1993. And this search that I'm talking about took place in 2002, meaning Pickton kept human remains in his freezer for over a decade. By the way, that skull was the only piece of evidence discovered outside of Robert Pickton's property. And we have no idea how or why it got there, but what we do know is...

is that while Robert disposed of his victims' remains at both the industrial rendering plant, which we mentioned last episode, and in the digestive systems of his pigs, he never got rid of the heads, hands, or feet of his victims. Because it's speculated that he couldn't disguise those very distinctly human parts as being discarded animal flesh from his slaughterhouse.

Yeah, but like, why get rid of the rest of them? I don't know. Just keeping the feet, the hands, and the head is... Likely something more sinister. Sure. A trophy. Yeah. You know, trophies. Needless to say, Robert Pickton was arrested on February 22nd, 2002, and an intensive 11-hour interrogation was conducted by a carefully selected team. In an earlier part of the interview conducted by RCMP Sergeant Bill Forty,

Robert was presented with a giant poster board with the faces of the 48 missing women that they were connecting to him. Forty walked Picton through each photo, asking if he recognized any of those women. Several times, Picton leaned forward to look more closely at the picture, said, she's pretty, about a woman, but denied knowing any of them. When asked whether he had killed the missing women, Robert vehemently said,

I don't know anything about it. I'm just a pig man. Yeah. Okay. The interrogation strategy was two-prong. One, try to elicit a confession from Picton, which proved unsuccessful. And two, try to get him to inadvertently confess to an undercover officer. In a tactical move, they placed an operative in the same cell as Robert, a technique known as a cell plant.

Pop quiz. Hey, man, you ever just like fucking kill someone and just feed them to a pig or whatever? Your thing? No. I'm going to do some push-ups. What happened between Robert and the undercover officer in his cell, the cell plant? A. Robert immediately suspected his cellmate of being police and urinated on him. B. Robert had no idea his cellmate was a cop, so he confessed to being a serial killer and then masturbated.

C. Robert attacked his cellmate and accused him of treason, likely meaning to say entrapment. Oh, yeah. Treason, peeing, or masturbating after confessing. I believe that this man peed on him. Nope. Yeah, I'm sucking today. Which means I'm killing it. Yeah, exactly. He attacked him and said treason. Nope.

Ew. He confessed to the murders and then rubbed one out? Yep. So basically, Robert sang like a bird. And while chit-chatting with the undercover operative, he confessed that he wished he killed one more woman to have made his kill count, and I quote, an even 5-0.

Then, after the undercover operative left the cell, Robert stripped down completely naked knowing that there were cameras in his cell and jerked off. Sounds like Javed Iqbal with the round number. Yes, it does. You impress me again. I knew you were going to like that. I love it. Wait, so why did the undercover cop leave the cell? He got what he needed.

Oh, so he was just like, see ya? I mean, they might have said something like, you have a court hearing or, you know what I mean, to get him out of the cell. And then he was like, well, I gave you what you wanted, but y'all are going to have to watch me. Yeah, watch this. Bizzar. Ugh.

Five years later, the trial began on January 22nd, 2007. I was very curious as to why it took so long, even though I always say that the wheels of justice spin very slowly. But it was really due to the complexity of the case and all the various legal proceedings, the sheer volume of evidence that there was to process. It just happened.

It took time. Yeah, I mean, if you kill one person, it could take you two years to go to trial. Right, exactly. So he should have just stayed in jail for 100 years. Yeah, right? Just store him. What's the difference? Because the difference is obviously bringing justice to the victims. But yes, point taken.

So due to the sheer volume of DNA evidence, British Columbia Supreme Court Judge Justice James Williams decided to sever the charges, which means that he decided to divide the trial into two parts or two trials. Simultaneous? No. Oh. The first part dealt with just six of the charges, while the remaining 20 were to be heard at a later date. Oh, there wasn't like 48 charges? No. They could only link him...

evidence-wise, to 26. Still a lot. It's still a lot, but it is still heartbreaking for the other women. You know what I mean? But spoiler alert, that second trial never ended up happening.

Now, the judge's decision to sever the charges against Robert Pickton faced significant criticism for several reasons, and I understand why. First, legal experts and critics argued that this negatively impacted the victims' families by creating a perceived hierarchy among the cases, suggesting, right, that some were less important and could be pushed off to the second trial.

This move was also seen as delaying justice for those not included in the first trial, potentially affecting the availability of key evidence or witnesses over time. So kind of like you're going to give everything you have in the cream of the crop in terms of testimony or whatever to this first trial and to the first six victims, and you can't guarantee...

that the following 20 are going to get that same treatment. That was the judge's decision, right? To sever the charges, yes. Then there was the concern about inconsistent verdicts and the challenge of presenting the full extent of Pickton's alleged crimes in separate trials, which would likely impact the jury's decisions and overall fairness. So he received a lot of heat. So let's say you're saying that, let's say that the first trial he was found not guilty. That would affect the other. It could. Yeah, oh, 100%. Absolutely. Absolutely.

But regardless of any controversy over the matter, which was formally raised during appeal, and if I remember correctly, there were three judges who were like ruling on the appeal and two of them felt that this was a bad move. But one of them didn't. And you need to have like a unilateral. Yeah, unanimous, not unilateral. The judge's decision to sever the charges remained intact. So it was what it was. Naturally, a lot happened over the course of this 10-month trial. But I'm going to tell you about the aspects that to me stand out.

First, let me summarize the legal strategies put forth by Roberts' defense team as well as the prosecution. Let's start with the defense led by attorneys Adrian Brooks, Richard Brooks, no relation between the two. Brooks Brothers. Good one. But no, they're not related.

Peter Ritchie, Patrick McGowan, and Marilyn Sanford. Okay. And that's his team? Yes, that's Robert's team. Okay. Their overall strategy was aimed at undermining the prosecution's case by attacking the reliability of the evidence and witnesses, introducing alternative narratives, and suggesting that the investigation was flawed.

I've never, I know you talked about a case or two ago, but I never really thought about how difficult it must be to be a defense attorney. You know what? They get a bad rap. We received an email from a defense attorney. Yeah. And I really understood what he was saying in his email because I think he feels like we don't give them a fair shake sometimes because they're... They're defending assumed criminals, innocent until proven guilty, obviously, but...

I don't know, maybe I guess in retrospect, it's worse looking back thinking, how could you defend this person? But you don't know before. Because everybody has the right to a fair trial and somebody has to do it. And I don't think that they are doing it to support that person. I think they're doing it to support the process of justice. Exactly. So their goal, the defense team, was to create enough reasonable doubt in the jurors' minds to prevent a conviction on the charges of first-degree murder.

Ergo, fancy, some of the key elements of their defense strategy included attacking the credibility of witnesses, questioning the forensic evidence. So in this vein, they argued that the DNA evidence could have been contaminated and that the presence of Pickton's DNA alongside the victims did not conclusively prove his guilt in the actual murders.

suggesting alternative suspects like people who lived on or frequented the Picton farm because remember they hosted so many banger parties with like outlaws and hell's angels and you know what I mean? All walks of life. They were... Defense was highlighting Picton's character. So remember how I mentioned last week that he would...

help certain women pay their bills or he'd let them live on his property. He'd give them work. He would buy everybody drinks and everything. They tried to present him as like a benefactor type of person. They also pointed to his below average intelligence and attempted to create a narrative that he was being unfairly targeted by law enforcement. Now, his IQ was reported to be 86, which is considered to be at the lower end of the average range or slightly below average. But this does not mean that he wouldn't be competent enough

to pull off what he pulled off. They also challenged the investigation, so Picton's attorneys criticized the police investigation and suggested that it was flawed and biased. They argued that the police had tunnel vision and focused on Picton and only Picton to the exclusion of other potential suspects. They didn't know all the work that they had done before this, right? Or that they didn't do. Well, I'm saying, like you said, they went through 600... Exactly. Listen, defense has to say something. Of course. But yes.

And then the last thing that they did in terms of their defense strategy was to dispute his confession. So the defense argued that the statements Pickton made to the undercover officer in jail, which sounded like a confession, were not reliable. So they suggested that Pickton was merely repeating information suggested to him by the officer or bragging to him in a misguided attempt to gain status. The

The prosecution's strategy was to weave together forensic evidence. Or he was just telling him he killed so many people so he could leave and he could whack off. Yeah, get out. I got some tension building. I killed like 30 people, dude. You got to get out of here. Yeah, good, good. Do whatever you got to do. I need a minute.

The prosecution's strategy was to weave together forensic evidence, witness testimonies, and the pattern of Pickton's behavior into a cohesive narrative that proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty of the murders for which he was being charged. Yeah. And an investigation that big, I could see how it would be relatively easy to cast some shadow of a reasonable doubt over some part of the process. Yes. Yes.

So to do this, the prosecutors Mike Petri, Daryl Prevett, John Aaron, Jeff Barrager, Jay Fogle, and Jennifer Lopez focused on the following. J-Lo's an attorney? Yeah, I was waiting for that. Jennifer Lopez, Ben Affleck. Listen, she's just Jenny from the block, all right? Word, word.

These were the key elements that they focused on in their strategy. Forensic evidence. A cornerstone of the prosecution's strategy was the presentation of forensic evidence linking Pickton to the murders. This DNA included evidence found on the farm that matched several of the missing women, as well as items belonging to the victims found in Pickton's possession. The prosecution meticulously detailed how the forensic evidence was collected and analyzed and emphasized its reliability and significance

Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Pickton's character and actions, which obviously contributed to the narrative of his guilt. Now, Sandra Ringwald's testimony was not allowed in Robert Pickton's trial. I hate when they do this. Oh my God. Primarily due to the ruling by the judge that deemed her testimony, along with evidence related to other charges, as potentially prejudicial to Robert's defense.

This approach was intended to uphold the fairness of the trial by preventing the jury from being swayed by other alleged criminal actions of Robert that were not part of this trial's scope. It is, though. It is. It's like a character testimony. Well, he did try to kill me. I literally stumbled onto the road with my guts hanging out of my body because of what he did to me. It's...

It counts. I don't understand how that's even allowed. I know. The judge felt that it could have impacted the jury's perception of Robert's character and behavior. Well, yes, as it should. Which would prejudice them without even knowing anything about this trial and the six women he was charged with killing in this trial. They would already have it out for him. So have her come in at the end. Have her come in and let the jury decide. I mean, that's what the presentation of evidence is about. It's like the judge saying, listen, I know there's blood...

on his clothes from these women. But like, I just feel like that's going to make him look bad in front of the jury. The CCTV footage of him plunging a knife into someone's not going to look great. Yeah, it's just, it's not going to make him look good. I want him to have a fair shot. Ridiculous.

prosecution also of course presented the videotaped confession oh it was videotaped oh yeah and he knew that there were cameras in his cell that's why when he stripped down and masturbated it was like particularly like what the fuck man yeah the prosecution focused on a pattern of behavior so they aim to establish a pattern of behavior that linked robert to the disappearances and murders of the women by presenting evidence of pictons interactions with the victims his

his control over the farm where the remains were found, and his actions following the disappearances, the prosecution sought to illustrate a consistent modus operandi. And then the last element of their strategy, the prosecution, was to emphasize the gravity of the crimes. Throughout the trial, the prosecution stressed the absolutely heinous nature of the crimes, the impact on the victims' families and the community, and the depth of Pickton's depravity.

Do you notice how I say depravity now and not depravity? Yeah. Yeah. Also, I recognize that you said heinous, and it occurred to me what a different world we would be living in if law and order, SVU, didn't say heinous. They said harrowing or something like that. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, it would be a different world indeed. It deals with the most depraved cases, SVU. Like, it would just, I don't like the butterfly effect. I don't know what would be. Great point. Yeah. Yeah.

Throughout the trial, Robert remained expressionless behind a bulletproof barrier while family members of over 60 women sought answers from him. After 130 witnesses, about 2 million pages of documents, hundreds of interviews, 700 people working on various task forces, and 10 months of trial, it

It took the jury of seven men and five women 10 days to reach their verdict. What the fuck? And on a Sunday, December 9th, 2007, Robert Pickton was found not guilty of first-degree murder.

but guilty of second-degree murder. I know. Two million pages of documents? Yes. When the verdict was read, two jurors were in tears and the foreman's hands were shaking. Why? Because they didn't agree? It was emotional. No, no, no. They had to agree, but it was emotional.

People from the audience cried out and screamed. Relatives openly sobbed, and Sergeant Don Adams, who was retired by this point, stared silently in utter disbelief. He later gave an informal press conference at which he stated the following, quote, Full justice was not done. If there is a person here who doesn't know Pickton planned these murders, which would make it first degree, then I'm on another planet. Willie Pickton is a chameleon.

Let's not be confused about his capabilities. Apparently, the only real difference, though, between a conviction of first-degree and second-degree murder would have been Robert's eligibility date for parole. So, you know. Not a big difference. Not tremendous. But still, right? For the victim's families and for the victims, the fact that he wasn't fucking nailed to the cross for first-degree murder? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it is to me a travesty. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Meanwhile, the only person who didn't react during the reading of the verdict was Robert Pickton. He just gazed blankly at the floor and was unflinching as the jury foreman declared him guilty of second-degree murder six times over, each pronouncement a hammer blow of justice.

Oh, good. Oh, good.

While Crown prosecutors did consider trying Robert Pickton on additional charges, right, related to the other victims in a second trial, which would have been, I feel like, the thing to do because I want those 20 women to have had sort of their day in court, if you will. Yeah. They ultimately decided not to proceed with the second trial. And I do understand why. So in addition to the fact that Pickton's punishment had already reached the maximum, other factors influenced this decision as well, including the cost and complexity of additional trials. Yeah.

the likelihood of securing convictions and the desire to spare the families of the victims from enduring further legal proceedings, although my understanding is they wanted it. I still think it's the right choice. They could want it all they want, but I think it would just be unnecessarily painful for, like, gratuitous pain for them. No, I understand. I do. I see both sides.

Lori Ann Ellis, who was the sister to Kara Ellis, who was one of the victims, summed up the family's long wait for justice by saying the following, to all the people who helped bring us to this point in time, may God bless you all. And to all the people who look the other way and still do as these girls continue to go missing over and over again, may God save your soul.

When Robert William Pickton was found guilty of committing six murders, the world knew that he was responsible for well over that amount. At the very least, the 26 that he was charged with. In fact, since it was near Christmastime, a Christmas tree was erected in front of the courthouse and adorned with 26 white angels on it. No one knows who did that, by the way.

But this display served as a public expression of solidarity with the victims and their loved ones, as well as the call for accountability and action to address systemic failures that allowed such atrocities to occur.

The Vancouver Police Department ultimately undertook a significant reform in their approach towards crime against sex workers. In 2010, they also supported a public inquiry entitled Forsaken into the department's practices by the British Columbia government, which reflected their openness to and endorsement of comprehensive changes. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. The reluctance to pursue crimes against sex workers, right? Is sex work illegal in

In Canada? It must be, right? Because I don't like it, but I'm just trying to figure out why they might think of like, I don't know. Oh, because they're not seen as valuable human beings. Well, like let's say a drug dealer got killed in a drug deal. They would, I'm sure, try and figure it out, but they're not bending over backwards trying to get this person justice. You know what I mean? I don't see them as the same, but I'm just wondering what the train of thought is for... Indigenous female sex workers. Yeah. Three strikes. Forgotten.

The inquiry proposed 63 recommendations aimed at preventing such failures in the future. Key suggestions included establishing a unified police force in Greater Vancouver for better coordination among law enforcement, ensuring sufficient funding for emergency shelters, and providing compensation for the children of the missing women. In response to the inquiry's findings, the Vancouver Police Department overhauled its entire approach to missing persons cases.

The department now incorporates the missing persons unit as a standard component, initiates investigations promptly, communicates and consults with family members before publicizing information, and maintains the case file active until the missing individual is found. So real change occurred.

What hasn't changed much since this case, unfortunately, is the fact that Native American women continue to make up a significant portion of the missing and murdered cases today. Not only is the murder rate 10 times higher than the national average for women living on reservations in the U.S., but murder is the third leading cause of death for Native women. That's fucking crazy. I'm sorry, so you said that the murder rate is 10 times higher

the rate of women living on reservations in the U.S.? You're talking about indigenous women in Canada. Right, but this statistic is the U.S. Oh. When you consider the fact that Native people only make up 2% of the U.S. overall population, according to the Urban Indian Health Institute, these are staggering statistics. Yeah.

Let's talk psychology. Because I, for one, need to understand why and how a human being made of the same stuff I'm made of, the same stuff you're made of, the same stuff every listener of this podcast is made of, went on to become one of Canada's most depraved killers.

Robert Pickton was identified as a psychopath, a diagnosis denoting a severe personality disorder marked by an absence of empathy, a blatant disregard for others' rights, and a predisposition to engage in criminal acts. Psychopathy is understood by experts to be a multifaceted condition with potential roots in both genetic makeup and environmental influences, and he had those two strikes against him.

Robert Pickton's childhood, marred by neglect and exposure to a brutal environment in a slaughterhouse setting, significantly influenced his psychological development. Developmental psychology theories suggest that early experiences shape behavior. We know this. And in Pickton's case, the constant denial of typical childhood pleasures and an immersion in violence seemingly contributed to his later psychopathic behavior.

Violence in terms of his father or violence against animals? Everywhere he looked, there was violence. For example, the theories of Eric Erickson, who I remember learning about when I was getting my master's because his name is Eric Erickson. Yeah. That was a choice that his parents made. Parents were doing the best they could at the time. Evidently. I mean, get a baby naming book? I mean...

So Eric Erickson was a developmental psychologist and a psychoanalyst who is known for his influential work on human behavior, especially regarding identity formation and the role of social factors in personal development. So if you take his theory, right, it would suggest that Robert Pickton may have become stuck in an early developmental phase due to his upbringing, which led to a failure in establishing trust.

This resulted in the normalization of violence, a form of arrested development that could underpin his later criminal behavior. Rachel. That's why I pointed at you when I said arrested development. Never nude. There are dozens of us. On a sociological level, Pickton's actions can also be understood through the lens of feminist theory. His upbringing led to a deep, deep disdain for women, particularly those he deemed vulnerable or of a lower social class.

If Pickton viewed his mother as domineering or harsh, it might have twisted his perception of female authority and contributed to a complex relationship with concepts of dominance and control. This belief system, coupled with societal stereotypes and gender class disparities, guided his choice of victims and his justification for his crimes. Because remember, what type of serial killer was he?

Mission-oriented. Right. Anthropologically, Picton's lack of social interactions throughout his entire upbringing and coldness from his mother contributed to his isolation as an adult. Remember, he rarely left the farm. I mean, he would. He'd go to bars. He'd buy people drinks. But he never had a girlfriend. He never lived outside of that farm. He really never left Coquitlam, except on one occasion that we know of when he went to Michigan to meet...

meet a girl. He didn't go to the gym, none of that. No. Did he even lift, though? I mean... Great question. His overall resentment towards women further fueled his violent actions and justification for them based on his own skewed moral and ethical values. And physically, something I never hear talked about, but that like, you know, it's my own musing. Remember he was born with the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck. Yeah. So I wonder if he had some kind of

oxygen deprivation that may have had some type of downstream effect. It's definitely possible. It's possible. It doesn't happen, like I think I mentioned that that happened to my sister when she was born. Yes. There was no long-term or short-term effects. It's just like when the baby comes out and it's wrapped around its neck, it's alarming. But it depends on how tight it is and how long it's been like that. Exactly, exactly. I should also say, I should have prefaced all of the psychological jargon with the fact that I'm not a professional. So this is my own sort of

Analysis based on research? We know that, yeah. I know, but I just feel like I want to put that out there. It comes across. It's obvious. Oh, my God. Why do you have to take it there? Because I giveth and then I tanketh. Yes, you doeth. But I just tanketh and I'm about to giveth. So keep going. Okay.

Robert Pickton's descent into criminal behavior may also be understood through the differential association reinforcement theory. Differential reinforcement what? Differential association reinforcement theory or DART, which posits that criminal actions are learned through social interactions that view crime favorably. Robert's early life on the pig farm under the strict guidance of a ruthless mother and a distant abusive father

laid a very grim foundation. And then a pivotal moment in his youth, which was seeing his butchered pet calf, taught him to devalue compassion and likely fueled his later resentment towards women. That's what I was just thinking. Yeah, remember how he ran to his mommy because he was so sad about his calf and she's like, I made a pretty dollar. I think if there was anything, obviously his whole life was a lot more than that, but I think out of what you've presented here so far,

That would fuck anybody up. Yes, absolutely. Like I said, even if it was... Let's say his mom got him an action figure. And then he went to go play with it and she had smashed it into 20 pieces. Devastating. That's not even a living thing. And he saved up for it. More to the point, like he had a real attachment. Probably the first of its kind in his life. Yeah, I know. Very, very, very sad. Another critical incident, remember...

was when his mother concealed the hit-and-run accident caused by his brother, which exemplified a callous, intentional disregard for human life and the law, which further twisted Robert's moral compass. He also grew up in a slaughterhouse and apprenticed with a butcher for six years.

I mean, everywhere he turned was death. Yeah. So in summary, in terms of his psychology, this complex interplay of learned behavior, environmental conditioning, early traumatic experiences with psychopathy as the cherry on top shaped Robert Pickton into one of Canada's most notorious serial killers.

All things considered, right, it's a damn good thing he's locked away. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I have a not-so-fun fact to share with you. No. The release of this two-part coverage of Robert Pickton just happened to coincide with a terrible development. No. Last month, in February 2024, Robert Pickton, who's now in his 70s, became eligible to apply for day parole.

Yeah. Yeah.

But the fact that it's on the table? Yeah. Baffling. Crazy. Pop quiz. Wow. Ending with a pop quiz almost. Why did Robert Pickton believe in the end is the reason he got caught? A, it was God's will. B, it was his dead mother's fault for ruining his entire life. Okay. C, he got sloppy. B. No. Fuck, I'm really having a hard time with these. Or you're just doing very well.

Okay, so it's not his mother. What was the first choice? God's will. God's will or he got sloppy. Like what was his reason for getting caught?

C? Yeah. Oh, okay. You didn't think it was C? No. I didn't. I don't know what the hell's going on. So he indicated to the cell plant that he had one more plant, but got sloppy. I'm doing air quotes, which people can't see. So that was weird. Yeah. But they can feel them, bro. Yeah. I feel like I conveyed it. When it came to cleaning up the blood and therefore he got caught. Because as we always point out, Tank, these predatory criminals, despite their heinous acts, they're not going to be caught.

are human after all. Yeah. And most of them get caught because they got sloppy. Yeah, got lazy. Right.

So I'd like to leave off by reading some of the victim impact statements as the families of the six murdered women for whom Robert Pickton was found responsible for killing finally had their moment to tell the world how the devastating tragedy of losing their loved ones affected them all day in and day out. I'd like to step out for this. I know. I know. I cannot tell you the snot and tears running down my face when I read these.

victim impact statements, like bawling. Cool. Looking forward to it. The families each had about five minutes to describe their loss, which I imagine was an insurmountable task. Yeah. But it was so important for them to be heard then. So I want to give them that spotlight again now. Bonnie Fuller and Ilana Papin spoke on behalf of their beloved sister, Georgina Papin. They said, I can't handle it.

I wish I could have done so much more. I always thought of her as being tough, someone who could always take care of herself. It really hurt to hear people describe her as a drug addict and prostitute. I didn't know Georgina that way. Georgina was a loving mother, our sister, and my mother's child. There's a rage inside of me over never really knowing what happened to her. All we had were bone fragments. Then, looking at Robert Pickton, Ilana said, I will never forget the damage you

you've done to our family. Jay Dreyer spoke about his foster sister, Serena Abbott's way. He said, every day I try to only think of the fun-loving Serena that I knew, but then the unthinkable reality takes over. Lisa Big John honored her older sister, Mona Wilson, who was Robert's last victim, by giving up drinking, indicating that each day of sobriety is a promise to her sister.

She still described living in a dead world without her sister. She said, Oh my God. A young woman named Brittany who wound up being raised by her grandparents prepared a statement about her mother, Marnie, that said,

I'm here for my real mother. I don't have much to say, but Mr. Pickton, why did you hurt my mother and those other women? When you took her from me, it was like ripping out my heart. Marnie, if you were here, I would have so many questions to ask you. Marnie, I miss you.

Mark Petrie, the lead prosecutor, read the statements from the other family members, and it was the first time that anyone saw him fall apart. He wept, and his voice cracked as he read Layla Coomer's statement about her granddaughter, Andrea Joesberg. Her statement said, She was a beautiful little girl who loved to dress up. The last phone call from her was that she was going to a party. She was getting dressed up in her best clothes because she had never been to a party.

I heard someone telling her that she looked pretty. That was the last we heard from her. She was so kind and so nice. She is forever loved. And lastly, a statement from Elaine Bellinger, who was Brenda Wolf's mother. There is a pain in my heart that will not heal. If the teardrops I shed made a pathway to heaven, I would walk all the way and bring you home, hold you in my arms again, and never let you go.

And that's the case. That's the case? Yeah. I do want to encourage everyone to read On the Farm, Robert William Pictum and the Tragic Story of Vancouver's Missing Women by Stevie Cameron. It's an extraordinary book. It's detailed. It's emotional. It's got direct quotes from...

Everyone. It's just a masterclass in writing and a very true deep dive into this case. So I recommend it. But yeah, that's the case. I recommend listening to this podcast. Okay. I can't imagine anybody doing a better job than you. Oh, thank you. Told you I was going to give it.

I'm waiting for you to take it because I'm... I already took it. I'm conditioned. I already took it. Sometimes it goes out of order. All right. Let's leave off on a giveth. Wow. Yeah, those impact statements. Thank you for doing all that work. Oh, I mean, my pleasure in a sense that I love doing this, not my pleasure in a sense that it broke my heart. It struck me again how much...

much information you collect to do this. Because I just did the Tankopedia, and you're like, you know, you actually know what's happening. Yeah. I am just trying to get through information on my episodes. Yeah, you do a great job. I don't think it makes any sense. It does make sense. It's riveting. And you're selling yourself short. You do a great job. Okay. I'll allow it. All right. I'll accept it. But yeah, I'm...

I'm in a zone. I'm in like a not great place right now. Really? Because those, those victim impact statements are brutal. They are brutal. It's real. Like the hardest part is part of this whole case. It's just reading because they really paint a picture about how these women were women and people and sisters and mothers and daughters and,

Even in delivering true crime content, it's hard to keep that in mind. I try to because it's top of mind for me all the time. But like, let's not forget, these aren't just like campfire stories. You know what I mean? Like ghost stories, creepy stories. No, this is... These are real people. And when you hear...

like people who loved them explaining how loved they were it's well I think that's the whole point of the victim impact statements because you like it's so easy to distance yourself from something whether it's far away time wise geographically far away or you just don't know this person so it's like I also understand it's a defense mechanism of sorts to like not care about everything happening to everybody on the planet you would crumble yeah but but

I think it is important to note that, I mean, 49 is so many. It's so many. It's not just so many people. It's so many lives. Yeah. Aside from the people whose lives were taken, their family and their friends who watched their friends go through this thing or like distant relatives or just people in general that were terrified walking the street.

Whether they were involved in sex work or not. Right. That's too many. It's too many. And the fact that it went uninvestigated for that long, I'm still a little hung up on. And the swamp water cleaning the car thing. Well, speaking of water, I was just going to say that a case like this is like Robert Pickton. Yeah. I think I've used this analogy before. He's like a drop of ink in a glass of water. Yeah. You know, he just, his toxicity just...

It just spreads everywhere. Like, would you go to a car wash that was called Swamp Car Wash? I would not, Hank. But I'm also, you know, I'm not on the side of the Canadian road trying to sell a birdhouse or a whirlywig or whatever. Whirlygig. Whirlygig. I need to know more about that, man. I'll tell you what. Yeah. Why don't you research that? I only recognize one Bill Wilson in my house, and it ain't this guy.

All right, at this point, I would like to take some time to acknowledge some of our best and brightest over on Patreon. The people who have decided to take the extra step with us who are making it official, quote unquote.

to really align themselves with us, our message, our mission, our insanity. And just, they can't get enough of us. Have fun with us. In turn, we can't get enough of you. Because they know that we're screenshotting and then sending it to each other. Oh, yeah. Predator Natural Patty, I see you and I understand why you did that. Oh my God, that's such a good one.

Tiddles McBiddles, I don't know what you're doing, but I still like it. I got a good one. What do you got? Wolfgang Schmidt his pants. Yeah. Yeah, that person. Adrian Big Purple Bitch Chavez. Yeah. I like that one. Cackling Dimwitted MRM. I don't know what MRM means, but I know what Cackling Dimwitted means. Maybe it's the person's initials. Maybe.

Maybe. Shut up Meg 81. Which could be an illusion. I feel like it might be a family guy thing, but it also might be like a if you made it this far Meg's illusion. Oh, I think that's what it is. Oh, okay. Wheel in a spoke. Fuck you. So good. Love you. Love you too. Oh, somebody's changed my username for attention. Yeah, I saw it, man. And also not fuck you wheel in a spoke. It's just I know what you did and I don't love it. I love it. But I do appreciate it. Standing on your business, which...

I, what, you like that one? I got a good one. Jars of nips soaking in saliva. Oh my God. I don't like that one at all. Shout out. I love it. I don't like that one at all. And one more. Let's see. Oh man, I hate this person, but I love them, but I hate them because I know what they, I know what they did here with this name.

Stand by hero. Oh, yeah. That cuts pretty deep for me. Yep. As it should. And I know that you like that because I was literally not a hero, ma'am. No, you weren't. I was a good Samaritan once and I was a liability the other time. The opposite effect. I was like, save me. Todd really picked up.

I can see how they got swept out. I think I'm in a little bit of trouble here. Oh, man. Well, yeah, we'll leave off, I guess, on the victim impact statements and the patrons because they're both victim impact statements. Like, I don't really want to take away from the... No, I purposely designed this case to leave off because I want people to remember the human beings involved. And I want people to remember the patron members. There you go. It's so our personalities, how we're leaving off this case. I know. So we're going to leave it there. Listen, if you made it this far...

What the hell are you doing? No, no. What do you want to say if you made it this far? I just want to thank you. If you truly, if you've made it this far and you've stuck it out with us, part one and part two, and you really went on this journey with us. And point driven home, if you're still listening right now is what I'm talking about. Yeah, then I can't thank you enough on behalf of both of us, Tank and me. We are very grateful to have your support and your ears and

and your hearts and your brains and your DMs and your comments and your support. I'm in a very emotional place because of the victim impact statements. You might want to cut me off, but I just want to thank everybody for being here with us. Yeah, we'll wrap it up so you don't start crying. Thank you. I appreciate that. All right. We will see you guys next episode. Bye. Bye.