EP63: Scissor Sisters (Part 2)
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You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com. All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia podcast. I am your co-host, Dan Sinatra, and I am here in a meat locker with my co-host. Be very freezing, investigators later. Frozen. Very cold. Let it go. Let it get warmer. Um, wait a second.

I know what we're doing today. What? The second part of the Irish case. Hell yeah, we are. I'm like really excited for that. You got to find out what happened, right? I feel like a listener right now. Well, you are every week. Why not?

Isn't that kind of the format? Yeah, but in a two-parter, I really feel that. Like I had to wait to find out what happens. You're right. You know what I mean? Because sometimes when we do two-parters, we really record in one session. Yeah. So you find out immediately, but not this time. Not this time. And I think Israel Keys we did in two parts also. We did that in six parts because the audio wasn't recording one time. Oh, yeah.

The other time the SD card fucked up. Remember we had to do it three times? I was like shot. Yeah, that was bad. That was bad. You're right. I was like, Israel Keys, just come kill me, dude. I almost cried. Well, listen, we have a special thing that we're going to do, which we haven't done in a long time. And it's a review from Apple. It's a review. We're going to read a review, okay? Because it's, according to Investigator Slater, the epitome of what we're trying to do here. Aw. And I agree. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we love all of the reviews. There was just something about this one. Yes. One of the all-time best. Immediately, thank you. Crying. I found this podcast around episode three early and have been fully hooked ever since.

There isn't a shred of content Taken Slater can put out that I wouldn't consume at this point. Yeah. While I'm not usually a fan of podcast banter, these two are so fun and interesting to listen to scripted and unhinged. That means they're on Patreon. Yeah. Slater is a storytelling savant, and I personally couldn't agree more. I can't wrap my head around how she continues to bring such high quality and polished episodes to the show weekly.

Tank is an all-around inspirational guy. Listening to him is my weekly reminder to be a little more curious and a little more playful in the world. Love this podcast. 10 out of 10. You forgot Jack, but it's fine.

Which reminds me of something. This may have been on a Patreon episode, but I said the person who said you are the universe experiencing itself. Buzz Lightyear. Buzz Lightyear. Because I couldn't remember who it was. It's actually Alan Watts because I Googled it after. Do you know who Alan Watts is? No. Alan Watts was all about just playing through life. The point of life is to live. Stop trying to figure it out.

just do it, engage, let go. And now I'm reading Michael Singer fully enveloped in untethered soul and living untethered. And that guy, holy shit, man. I mean, he's,

It's like advanced stuff. I feel like I love it because I've been doing this for so long that I need that like extra hardcore, almost. It's like an AP course. Yeah, but it's so simple. It's almost too simple for someone who's just getting into it. They're like, what do you mean? Blockages, what are you talking about? What the hell are you talking about?

I got to read it so that we can talk about it. Yes. So listen, if you love us and you love what we're doing and you want to support us, here are some ways you can do that.

support the sponsors we have good sponsors right so like i wouldn't tell you to get something that wasn't good so if it's something you're gonna get anyway just use the code whatever code we say that helps us so much you can't even imagine you can also you know share it with a friend a family member a stranger i mean make it your job so that you can continue bringing these cases

You can also subscribe on Apple, Spotify, and now YouTube. Yes. Oh, my goodness. A whole other world there. It's a whole other world. And I'm not a big YouTube person. Like, I know you are, obviously, in what you do. So for me, I'm like. No, it's not what I do. That's like my escape. Right. But you explore it. You know it. You know the ins and outs is kind of what I meant. Oh, yeah. Ins and outs. But for me, it's like a whole new world. It's amazing. What is this place? Wait till the algorithm starts to get to know you. It's one of the best out there. It's just I'm constantly being fed.

stuff that I want to watch. And I'm like, I can't watch it at all.

My save to watch later playlist is like. Oh, you can do that? Yeah, yeah. I should do that. It's like putting it in a now and never pile though. Yeah, but I have like a thousand tabs open because I'm like, oh, I want to see that, but not right now. So I open up a new tab. Exactly. Okay. You know what I started doing? Going through my internet tabs on Safari on my phone to see like what kind of a day I had because I don't remember anything ever. I'm like, why would I want to know that? Why not? What was going on there? You're a glutton for knowledge. I'm a glutton for knowledge.

rate on Spotify, review on Apple and engage on YouTube in any way. Like you can like the video, subscribe. You got a heart emoji as a comment is more than enough just to let us know you're there also. Cause there have been some listeners heading over there and that like, I love that.

Like I was listening to it, but I wanted to see Tank's reaction or Slater's face when this happened. Exactly. And you can bounce back and forth. Yeah, yeah. You know, if you want to see a certain part on YouTube, go over, then head back to audio or week to week, whatever. Whatever floats your boat. Whatever. I really want to get into part two. Okay. So without further over in Kalani, let's get into this week's case. That was positively beautiful.

I can't wait to hear the whole thing, you freak. I can't. It's too-ra-loo-ra-loo-ra-loo or some shit like that. I can't. No, no, no. It was beautiful. I'm not going to be able to do it. Okay. So I'm going to summarize part one. Yes. All right? Just briefly, but this is what I always say when we get to part two of a case. You just went...

I've gotten good, right? Pretty good, yeah. This little summary is in no way a substitution for listening to the entire episode of part one. And if you haven't listened to part one and you're listening to part two...

Believe me when I tell you, so far, for me, I mean, I haven't listened to the final episode. It's the best case I've ever sat through. I actually wasn't able to sleep after we finished recording this because I was so hyped up that you said it was your favorite episode. We've done over 60 episodes, so that's not a small comment to make. That's what Michael Singer is talking about. Oh.

Letting go of the blockages, letting that limitless energy flow through you. Yeah, limitless. You know, it's in there all the time, like in Spaceballs when he pulls out the Schwartz ring or he's trying to do the Schwartz and he doesn't have it and Yogurt goes, I've got that ring in a Cracker Jack box. May the Schwartz be with you. Schwartz was in you all along. Yes. Okay, so here we go. I'm going to summarize part one just for a little courtesy, but please go listen to part one if you haven't.

In part one, we concluded with the forensic identification of 39-year-old Farrah Knorr's remains in the Royal Canal in Dublin. And as we detailed earlier in part one, Farrah was brutally murdered by Linda Mulhall when she was 31 and her sister Charlotte, 22, infamously known thereafter as the Scissor Sisters.

Farrah, who had been dating Linda and Charlotte's mother, Kathleen, was a violent, abusive man and a sexual predator. While celebrating Charlotte's 22nd birthday on March 20th, 2005, Farrah, who was fueled by three days worth of alcohol and an ecstasy pill that was snuck into his drink by Kathleen, made inappropriate sexual advances toward Linda in front of Charlotte and Kathleen. And we can't emphasize enough, he was on a bender for three days. Correct. Like,

At that point, sleep deprivation is having more of an effect on his psychotic state than any of the drugs. Yeah, quite possibly. Yeah. When confronted by the women, Farrah reacted violently and grabbed Kathleen by her arm while threatening her life. And obviously the women confronted him because they were telling him to stop making sexual advances to Linda. And Kathleen is the mom and the girlfriend. Right. Driven by fear and allegedly at Kathleen's urging...

Charlotte and Linda retaliated against Farrah with lethal force. That's right, she asked them. Charlotte slit his throat with a box cutter and stabbed him over 20 times, while Linda bludgeoned him with a hammer at least a dozen times. Shoot, I meant to look up what a Stanley blade is. It's a box cutter. It's a very sharp blade that they penetrated into his flesh.

Following the murder, the Scissor Sisters dismembered Farrah's corpse, disposed of most of his body parts in the Royal Canal, buried his head separately in a park, meticulously cleaned the crime scene, and then drained his bank account three days later.

Initially, the Gardaí, which is the law enforcement of the Republic of Ireland, were stumped about the victim's identity, but a breakthrough came when they circulated a photo of Farrah's distinctive shirt, which they found with his remains. His away jersey. Exactly right. Following a Crimestoppers appeal, one of Farrah's friends and neighbors stepped forward to identify the man found in the canal, which was then confirmed with

with DNA analysis as being Farinor. All right. So that's the summary of part one. So everything I'm about to say is now officially part two. Imagine I died and they found one of those blue gray shirts that I wear. It'd be so obviously you. Oh yeah, that's him for sure. Yeah. Yep. And me, what would it be? Some kind of faux fur animal ear situation. I think spiky backpack. Yeah, that's it.

So in addition to Farrah's friend and neighbor, Muhammad Ali Abu Bakar, coming forward to identify his remains, two other people came out of the woodwork with useful information about the suspects responsible for the death of the man in the canal. Mike Tyson and... Holyfield? No.

And remarkably, these two other people were James and John Mulhall Jr., the two eldest Mulhall brothers who were both incarcerated at the time in Wheatfield Prison, Clondalkin. So Linda and Charlotte, their brothers who were incarcerated, narked on them. How did they know? It was being advertised everywhere. Crime stoppers, like...

whatever, they got wind of it inside. Oh, they got wind inside that Farrah was murdered. That Farrah was murdered and law enforcement were trying to identify his remains. Gotcha. So we know that Farrah's friend Muhammad had come forward and I'm saying in addition to Muhammad, the brothers came forward.

So let me tell you about that. So James was serving a sentence for dangerous driving causing death while John Jr. was in custody related to being a passenger in a stolen vehicle. They happened to be incarcerated together. So between April and July of 2005, three months after Farrah's murder, Kathleen, Linda, and Charlotte visited James and John Jr. several times in prison and yapped about the murder and dismemberment.

completely unaware, obviously, of the consequences this confession would prove to have. Really?

Because on July 11th at 7.47 p.m., the brothers contacted the Dublin Emergency Exchange to rat their sisters out in an effort to prevent their mother, Kathleen, from potentially going down for their crime. Because at this point, all signs were pointing at Kathleen as being sort of the sole person responsible for the death. That, I mean, as harsh as it sounds, does make sense. That the brothers...

ratted the sisters out to protect the mother. I wouldn't even call it ratting at that point. They're giving information that the cops need so that their mother doesn't go to jail. They ratted them out. I know, but ratting sounds, it feels like more... They did it with like bad intentions to throw them under the bus. Just to get them in trouble. Right. No, I do believe that they were doing it. I mean, there are some sources that say they did it because they thought they were going to get their hands on the Crimestoppers 10,000 euros reward. Yeah. That went to Mohammed. But I think that this...

holds more water. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine Kathleen is going to get off scot-free. You'll find out, won't you? I will. We all will. So the brothers disclosed very specific details, including how Charlotte decapitated Farrah to hinder identification and how Linda severed Farrah's penis as retribution for raping Kathleen. And this sounds so convoluted, all these different players. Again, if you listen to part one, this is all going to make sense. If you didn't, it's a little confusing, I feel like. Yeah, yeah.

But of course, these were the two body parts that were precisely the two missing from the recovered remains in the canal. So when law enforcement got this information from the brothers about how the head was chopped off and the penis, it just lended sort of credibility that, oh, okay, yeah. Yeah. Linda and Charlotte, likely the suspects were going for here. In addition to the crucial phone call made by James and John Jr. that betrayed their

their sisters, the Gardi also achieved four additional breakthroughs in the case that pointed to the Mahal women's guilt.

Firstly, extensive DNA evidence collected at Kathleen and Farrah's apartment conclusively established it as being the murder scene. Notably, this was also the last place that Farrah was seen alive with all three Mulhall women as witnessed by Muhammad. Okay. Hot quiz. Okay. Coming at you early today. How did forensic experts determine with scientific certainty that the apartment was indeed the scene of the actual murder?

A, they used luminol, which revealed spatters of arterial blood indicative of a violent, fatal struggle. B, they found marks in the bathroom floor tiles that were consistent with the hammer blows used to chip away at Farrah's bones during the dismemberment. Okay. C, they found eggs belonging to rove beetles, which feed on remnants of decomposing flesh beneath the floorboards. Oh my god.

Oh, you look unwell. I mean, no, I'm just unwell because of this pop quiz. Like, what the fuck is it? Luminol, Marx, or Bugs? Let me unblock. Bugs? No. Myself has betrayed myself. Marx? No. Luminol seemed too easy. Well, you should have gone with it. Sometimes the right answer is the easy answer. Yeah, but what? I mean, how did you come up with those other two? Because I'm not well.

That's so true. I know. I mean, it should be clear by this point. I forget sometimes. But listen, I have a fun fact. Okay. This was one of the first times Luminol was used in Ireland. Oh, okay. If not the first time. And it wasn't that long ago, right, this case? No, it wasn't long ago at all, but it was the first time that they used Luminol. Damn. Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go.

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Okay, so that was one sort of significant breakthrough, right? It was all this DNA found. Now they know that the actual murder happened in that apartment. Second, Farrah's cell phone was traced by the Gardee post-death and found to be in the possession of John Mulhall Sr. Oh, that's right. He was there. Yes. He helped to discard the bag.

of remains and weapons and stuff. And I made it through the first podcast without saying this, but I'm not going to do it in this one. I'm just going to get out. Whenever you say Gardi, I think of Chef Boyardee, and that's all I wanted to say. Oh, my. Okay? But now I'm picturing you with a Chef Boyardee hat. I've been picturing you with a chef hat this whole time. Really?

Also, now I see Ratatouille in your hat. I'm going places in my mind. Let's get back on track. Okay, third. Third breakthrough. After Sergeant John Brutton and his team from the Garda Water Unit expanded their search in the River Liffey just downstream from where Farrah's remains were discovered...

they found an additional sports bag. And in this sports bag were gloves, a cigarette lighter from Gala Stores in Ballyboe, which is where Kathleen and Farrah lived, a bathroom towel, a chain, pillows, blankets, and a knife with a black handle. Furthermore, these items were found up the river embankment behind the home of a man named Harry Burns, who was John's

Okay, so... John Mulhall's boss. Yeah, so John was a glass fitter. The remains were found behind his boss's home. So it was theorized that the Mulhalls, likely John, used the river access behind Burns' house to dispose of evidence while Burns had been away on vacation. That's what I was going to ask. So the river ran through his backyard. Yeah. Okay. More or less. Okay. But you needed his property to access the location where this bag was found. Gotcha. All right? Yeah.

And finally, the final big breakthrough at this point in the investigation was CCTV footage capturing Linda, Charlotte, and Kathleen purchasing bleach and garbage bags the day after the murder.

So, I mean, whatever. They're not professionals. It is what it is. They're not professionals. That and the emptying the bank account is just like... Rookie mistakes. What are you doing? Rookie. So, suffice it to say, all of that combined with the revealing new statements from James and John Jr., detectives had amassed sufficient evidence to arrest Linda, Charlotte,

Kathleen, and John Mulhall. Okay. So on August 3rd, 2005, a coordinated effort by four teams of detectives led to the simultaneous arrests of all four suspects at two central guard stations. So they split them up. Each suspect underwent lengthy interrogations, Linda, Charlotte, and Kathleen for 12 hours each and John for nine.

But despite law enforcement's efforts and extensive questioning, all of the suspects were released due to what was deemed at the time as being insufficient evidence to hold them, according to legal assessment. Okay. And Linda, feeling inappropriately and prematurely cocky upon her release, even threatened to sue Detective Inspector Christy Mangan for her wrongful arrest. Wow. This is like...

I feel like what people do, they dig themselves in holes. Like, oh yeah, you got released. Leave it. Like OJ writing a book called If I Did It. Exactly. Perfect. Rest in hell. Rest in hell is right. But Linda's bravado ultimately crumbled and very quickly because following this release, her mental state rapidly deteriorated.

Yep. And she became consumed by a crushing sense of guilt and shame 24-7. The torment became so intense that she found herself unable to face her own children.

And in an effort to numb her pain, Linda once again turned to excessive drinking. But it didn't do the trick because she remained haunted by visceral memories of the crime and was plagued by the lingering smell of Farrah's sliced open intestines in her nostrils, a stark reminder of her deplorable, irreversible, heinous actions.

As the investigation persisted, Linda felt the relentless pressure of Garda's scrutiny and feared an inevitable breakthrough in the case that would seal her fate and send her away, which is exactly what would break me. I feel like aside from the guilt of taking a life, I would just constantly feel like,

They're going to get me. Oh my God. I'm going to wake up and in front of me will be in the FBI and I'm done. Linda was always kind of on the edge though, right? She was like teetering anyway. She was teetering anyway. She definitely had a very precarious mental state for most of her life. Yeah. And,

Remember, she was the one who, for whatever it's worth, was like sort of apologizing to Farrah as she was slicing him up. Really? I didn't remember that. Yeah, she was crying. She couldn't even participate in the dismemberment initially because she was way too distraught about it. Yeah. Again, take it with a grain of salt. She still did it. But this was just to kind of paint a picture where she was emotionally and psychologically. Her distress, though, wound up leading to a suicide attempt, which resulted in hospitalization. So she was understandably crying.

And it was at this point in Linda's life, precisely one year after her initial arrest and subsequent release, on August 17th, 2006, at 5 p.m.,

She found herself needing to unburden her conscience by confessing everything to law enforcement. And when I say everything, I mean everything. Yeah. In a detailed verbal confession that spanned four hours and 20 minutes just of her straight talking, she divulged every aspect of the crime to Detective Inspector Christy Mangan and Sergeant William Hickey.

She even attempted to guide them to the burial site to Farrah's head, although it was ultimately never recovered. That's such an interesting example of the truth will set you free, because obviously the truth physically will wind her up in jail, but like there's nothing worse than being a prisoner of your own mind and actions. Absolutely. And per usual, you are 10 steps ahead. Remember this point for when we get to the trial.

Okay. So naturally, the three Mulhall women were rearrested in October. And one poignant detail that emerged, which significantly elevated my respect for the Gardee, not that I needed to be elevated because I think they did a tremendous job with this investigation, but one thing that I really liked was their thoughtful consideration during the arrest process.

They had a real sensitivity to the potential emotional impact on the family that these arrests would have. And they strategically waited until Linda's children had left for school before proceeding to arrest her. Something about that. You know, you find little bits of humanity in these cases. You cling to it. You know what I mean? Okay. So you might be wondering, if you're on your toes, and you typically are, why John Mulhall wasn't rearrested.

Just the three women. Yeah. The answer involves self-harm and it warrants a trigger warning. So please listen with caution. Okay. In December, 2005, John carrying the weight of immense personal turmoil and guilt of what happened and his involvement in the coverup.

drove his Burlingo van to Phoenix Park, a place steeped in memories from his childhood. There, he found a secluded spot that he knew well, and taking a rope from a washing line, he crossed to the forest opposite the Wellington Monument. After securing a double knot in the rope, he hanged himself from an oak tree.

At the age of 53, the father of six left behind a brief suicide note on a 50-pound note found in his wallet. Addressed to his youngest daughter, Marie, the note bequeathed whatever his belongings, like whatever he had to his name, he left everything to her. John's death had a profound impact on Linda and Charlotte, who were out on bail at the time. The loss drove them to escalate their substance abuse and turn to heavy drinking and hard drugs, including heroin, which it's not their first rodeo with that.

Following his death, the council repossessed his home and Linda was forced to move out with her four children because remember, they were all living with John Mulhall. Weren't they in jail at that point? No, this is when they were arrested. Remember I said you may be wondering why John wasn't arrested? So this was before. So I backtracked a little bit just to tell you why John wasn't arrested. And then following his death,

the government basically took his house and Linda and her four children were forced to move out, relocate and go into government housing. It's so sad. So it's rough. It's rough for the kids.

But amidst these tumultuous personal upheavals, the wheels of justice continued to turn. And on October 10th, 2006, one of the most gripping and eagerly anticipated criminal trials in recent Irish history commenced at the Dublin Central Criminal Court. Lasting a total of nine days, which for me does not sound like a lot, but I guess they didn't need a lot, right? Like they had... It was kind of a... Yeah. Wait, dead to rights. Dead to rights. One of my favorite phrases.

So the trial, lasting a total of nine days, commenced, and the Scissor Sisters both pleaded not guilty, which is interesting. Do we even know why they're called the Scissor Sisters yet? Yeah, but you got to hang tight a little bit longer. Okay, no, no, I meant yet, because I remember not knowing, but it's coming up. Yeah, no, and at this point in the trial, I don't think that the media actually dubbed them as the Scissor Sisters quite yet.

So again, this was set to be among the most gruesome and riveting cases ever presented in an Irish courtroom. And indeed, it was. In fact, the judge who presided over this case, Judge Paul Carney, described Farrah's death as the most grotesque murder he had ever seen in his professional service.

Now, in any murder trial, the prosecution establishes the context by detailing the location of the murder, the method of killing, and the identity of the victim, and concludes with the evidence against the accused. I thought you were going to say method and manner. I know. But who would that be? Not the prosecution. That would be the... Forensic person. Yeah, the medical examiner.

So in the case of the Mulhall sisters, the primary evidence presented by the prosecutor, Senior Counsel George Birmingham, included Charlotte and Linda's own admissions of guilt, as well as substantial forensic proof that Farrah Swalai-Noor was murdered at Flat One, Richmond Cottages, which was his apartment with Kathleen, and the last place in which he was seen alive. Yeah, and they pled not guilty? Yes, they did.

The prosecution pointed out that the post-mortem showed that Farrah had been stabbed 22 times with extensive internal injuries to, quote-unquote, pretty well all of his internal organs. I'm still hung up on the Stanley blade, but it's okay. Like, how did it reach if it's a box cutter? Because the blade is like that big on a box cutter. Force.

I don't know what to tell you. I wish I was, I really wish I was a CSI. Do you? So that I could recreate the scene for you and we could figure this out. This is like bugging you. At this point, I think that you know that I get hung up on really irrelevant stuff. The truth is we could actually figure this out. I know how. It's creepy. Maybe we'll do it on Patreon. Okay. And nobody will actually be harmed, obviously. Yeah. But there's like a scientific way that we can actually show you.

His soft tissue had been cut through with a knife. Remember, they also used a kitchen knife. It was like a bread knife. And they were on him for a while. Hours, four hours for the dismemberment component. And the bones were determined to have been severed by being repeatedly chipped away at, which we knew. They took the hammer and they were like, and of course the head and the penis were never recovered.

Evidence presented by the prosecution also included testimonies from the sisters admitting their roles in the crime to law enforcement during their interrogations. Additionally, Muhammad Ali Abu Bakr testified about seeing Farah with the Mahals on the night of his death, noting that Farah appeared drunk and wore his Ireland Away soccer jersey, a detail, of course, we know linked to the body found in the canal.

Forensic scientist Dr. Breedge McBride testified about the discovery of bloodstains at the apartment being consistent with a serious assault having taken place at a low-down location in the bedroom. And that's exactly what happened. They slit his throat, he dropped, he hit his head on the bunk bed, and they proceeded to kill him.

There was also evidence of bloodstains in the grooves of the pine planks on the closet, but not on the surface of the wood, which is consistent with a cleanup having taken place to remove the blood. And the fact that CCTV footage captured the Mulhall's purchasing cleaning supplies three days after the murder provided yet another compelling piece of evidence. Three days? Yeah, they were cleaning for days, especially Kathleen.

That was her way, I don't want to say of coping, but for lack of a better way of putting it, that was her way of coping. Charlotte was hardened.

Charlotte was like business as usual. She stayed in that apartment. She was unmoved, at least on the exterior. Linda was having a nervous breakdown every single day. Kathleen cleaned. That's how they got through it. Claire Timms, who's another scientist, also confirmed at the trial the presence of ecstasy in Farrah's blood at a level of 0.14 micrograms per milliliter, supporting the assertion that Kathleen had spiked his drink.

Various members of law enforcement testified as well, as did Maria Mulhall, the youngest Mulhall daughter, who indicated that Charlotte confessed to her, her and Linda's involvement with the murder. They were just fucking telling everyone. They're like, oh, dog out there. This is it, right? Stop showing motherfuckers the tape, man.

It's exactly like that. You have any idea what I'm talking about? No, but like I've learned to go with it because it's usually Menace to society. A movie or a rap lyric. O-Dog. They robbed a store and then they shot the clerk because he said something smart to O-Dog. He's just showing everybody the tape. He's so hyped up. All willy nilly like. Yeah. Yep.

Charlotte's defense attorney, so everything I just told you was what the prosecution presented at trial. Evidence abound against them. Now, Charlotte's defense attorney, Isabel Kennedy, who was a well-known senior counsel in Ireland, disputed the issue of intent and suggested that Farrah's death occurred

in a moment of heightened tension and panic. That's why they pled not guilty. Yes. And the strategy here was to try to reduce the severity of the charge and or the potential sentence that would eventually be handed down to her client.

Because in legal terms, disputing intent focuses on arguing that the accused did not have a premeditated desire or plan to commit murder, which is a critical element in distinguishing between different degrees of homicide, such as murder and manslaughter. To that end, according to D.I. Christy Mangan, who I keep bringing up, by the way, you probably know his name. I read his book for this research. Excellent. And he's like a total G. Had Linda and Charlotte walked up to the Fitzgibbon Street Guard Station, which

which was just a mere few-minute walk from the murder scene, and reported that Farrah had attacked them and that they killed him to protect themselves, they would have likely both received lesser charges. It was the dismemberment that resulted in the media frenzy and murder conviction for Charlotte, which we're going to get to, and the hefty manslaughter sentence for Linda, which we're going to get to, because it implied premeditation versus self-defense or a snap.

Linda's defense counsel, led by Brendan Graham SC, argued that she was coerced or acted under duress and that she was influenced by her sister and the circumstances they found themselves in. Oh, they turned against each other? A little bit. It's not that they turned against each other, but they actually, we're going to find out right now, were convicted of different charges. Okay. Because of that argument of intent. Yeah, yeah. Unsurprisingly, though...

Neither Linda nor Charlotte testified during the actual trial, though they were physically present in court for the entirety and read books, newspapers, and celebrity magazines during breaks. Oh, during breaks. Well, they said during breaks and evidence. So basically during the trial, my understanding is when it wasn't like straight up evidence being presented, you can see pictures not in the courtroom but outside of them with celebrity magazines. It's like someone looking at their phone. Maybe, yeah, you're right.

Well, that's like a great thing to do at your trial, but... No, it's not, but... Yeah, meanwhile, they wound up becoming the tabloid headline for quite some time. Are they reading about themselves, maybe? No, not at this point.

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Now, typically it's not recommended that a defendant testify at his or her own criminal trial if all they're going to say is, I'm innocent. Because the presumption of innocence suffices without the risks associated with testifying. But if there's more to the story, such as claims of self-defense, a mistake, an alibi to explain, or a plea for leniency, then the situation changes and the accused may want to testify.

It's risky, but it's more of an option in that type of scenario. Now, that being said, the way a defendant presents on the stand has to be considered, and it's crucial. And given the circumstances, Charlotte and Linda likely would not have made a favorable impression upon the jury. So choosing not to testify was probably the right move, although in the end, I'm not sure it would have mattered one way or the other, given the end result.

After nine days of trial, jury deliberations began on Wednesday, October 25th, 2006. And in a highly unusual act, Judge Paul Carney made a random announcement to say that he was going to invoke what he called, and this is in quotes, one of the most awesome of his powers. Pop quiz. What awesome power did he invoke? Invisibility. Invisibility.

That's why he had a cloak, right? Invisibility cloak. That's so funny. No. A. Wow, that hurt, actually. Listen, I get serious. Yeah. He provided wine to the jury with their evening meal. That's one of his awesome powers. I don't know. You're going to tell me. B. He intercepted the jury's verdict before it was delivered to make his own ruling in an act known as extra verdictum. That's one of his Austin powers.

Okay. Sorry, I'm done. C, he arrested every single member of the media present in the courtroom, declared a mistrial, and claimed that there was a leak that poisoned the jury. B. No. I made that up. I even Googled how to say outside the verdict in Latin to make it sound more legit. How does it go in Latin? Extra verdictum. Extra verdictum. Okay. It's not real. Arrested all the media people. No. No.

I don't remember what the other one was. He provided wine to the jury. How is that a power that he has? Because there were concerns. This was like a very big deal at the time. There were concerns that the jury consuming alcohol could have provided grounds for Charlotte and Linda to appeal any subsequent, I can't

never say that word, subsequent verdict. Okay. This was, again, a very big deal because people could say that whatever decision came up was under the influence of alcohol. So how is that an awesome power? Because he's saying he can do it anyway.

He's saying, you may not like it. Prosecutors who definitely came back and said, we don't like this. Yeah, yeah. You may not like it, but I can do it. Is that a law? Apparently, it's some, I mean, he said he was invoking an awesome power, not an Austin power. A judge can give the jury wine? It's in a legal book somewhere? I think that they're not supposed to drink is in a legal book. And he's saying, I'm overriding that.

It's an awesome power. Okay. It was a big thing at the time, and I thought it was a cute pop quiz. It was a cute pop quiz. Okay. I mean... I know, I know. You get hung up on things, I know. It's okay. It's good. Then, the next day, on Thursday, October 26th, at 12.30 p.m., Judge Carney unexpectedly informed the jury that a unanimous verdict was no longer necessary and allowed them to return a majority verdict instead.

However, in spite of this move, which was to seemingly fast track the verdict, the jury for women reported that they were still at an impasse as they had a majority, but were far from reaching an 11 to one or a 10 to two decision. Is that what it needs to be? Even that's what it needs to be. Even if it's not unanimous. Right. Okay. Now it was a tough trial, right? The victim was a sexual predator and the perpetrators who committed a vile act were still victims of all kinds of abuse throughout their entire lives.

So in yet another unusual move to what's considered a relatively normal standard deadlock, right? Juries come back all the time in a hopeless deadlock, right? You've heard that phrase? Hung jury. Judge Carney stated, and I quote, five children have an interest in this, so I'm anxious that we reach a conclusion. If you have any doubt, resolve it in the favor of the accused. Listen. What? I'm not...

I'm not that far away from him. What? You're pushing the process, the wheel? You're pushing your... No. Well, hold on. Hold on. Let me explain myself. Okay. Okay. So when somebody's on trial for killing somebody, the main goal is to keep them off the street so that they don't kill again. I don't see them killing again. All due respect. I hear you on that, by the way, because I don't think... Thanks for throwing in that all due respect after you rolled your eyes out of your face. Yeah.

Head over to YouTube if you want to see that epic eye roll. All due respect, you idiot. But... No, you're not an idiot at all. I'm always in line with what you're thinking. I respectfully disagree here. I'm not saying I would do that. I'm just saying I get it. No. I understand. I don't. I mean, I respect... If I'm giving off other vibes, your opinion, I don't respect it at all. But...

But this directive appeared to force the jury's hand. You can't do that. Let me back up. Okay. I'm not okay with him doing that. Oh. I understand why. I was, because as you were saying that, like two minutes before that, I was thinking like, I wonder if they'd be a danger to society. Like that's the main question that needs to be answered. And I just don't feel like they would, unless their mother was being...

raped, assaulted by a guy who had continuously raped and beaten her. I mean, if they find themselves in that situation again, like what the fuck? But I don't see them like as a danger. Right. But the fact that the judge made that call. That's crazy. Okay. Yeah. Oh, thank God. I was ready to hang it up. And our wires crossed. We sure did.

So this directive, as I said, appeared to force the jury's hand. Senior counsel George Birmingham challenged this action in court, understandably, and accused Judge Carney of tipping the scales of the trial. Of course. Yet all the judge responded with was, let's get real, Mr. Birmingham.

And the process proceeded accordingly. Let's get real. What does that mean? He's like, let's get real. Like we want, we all want this child to just move and be done. We all know what's going to happen. Let's just push them. It's fucking ridiculous in my opinion. I think you're speaking for everyone at a turn. We all, everyone knows it. Ask anybody. There's a reason there's a jury. Yes. And there's a reason there's a process.

Eventually, on Saturday, October 28th at 2.30 p.m., after 18 hours and one minute of deliberations, the jury settled upon and delivered their verdict. Guilty. Linda immediately began to cry and said out loud, thank God it's over. And that's what I was saying to you earlier when you said that sort of

Release, relief. Even though you know you're going to be locked up and now you're going to be punished, it's still a sense of freedom. And she also probably feels like she wouldn't be able to live without being punished in some way. She was punishing herself. I truly don't think she would have been able to go on. And by the way, I'm not saying like as a jury member, I would have fought for them to be released. I just like this case in particular is a little bit different than most of the cases. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we will come back to that.

Really? Yeah. I'm not going to say we're going to circle back because like, I feel like you took the fun out of that one a little bit. Was it fun? For me, we're going to circle back. You're like, weird idea. I love saying circle back on the weekends. Is that I take what I can get doing these cases. They're heavy.

Interestingly, due to the specific roles they played in the crime and the nature of their actions, Charlotte Mulhall was found guilty of murder and received a mandatory life sentence, while Linda Mulhall was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 15 years in prison. Interesting. This basically meant that Charlotte was found to have had the intention to kill, while Linda's involvement, although significant and punishable...

was deemed not to have the same level of premeditation or intent to kill as Charlotte. Yeah, I don't think Charlotte had intent. I mean, was premeditated either. It strikes me as an in-the-moment type of a snapping thing. For both of them. Yeah. Right.

Still, Linda's sentence of 15 years was the second highest sentence ever for manslaughter in the history of Ireland at the time. Yeah, the dismemberment is what makes it. Absolutely, but a very hefty sentence according to how they typically sentence.

Kathleen, by the way, which I touched upon earlier, had fucked off to London and... Kathleen? Yeah, and abandoned her daughters. She hadn't been seen or heard from since September 2005, having completely abandoned the girls right after they were released after their first arrest. She wasn't on trial too? Not at this stage. Then, in a shocking move, she came back to Ireland on her own accord and turned herself in voluntarily.

At that point, it was February 2008, and she pleaded guilty to the lesser charges of concealing a crime and giving false information to the police, and she was sentenced to five years.

After the conclusion of the trial heard round the world, or at least all over Ireland. Or at least all over Ballyboe. Well, I mean, I know about it all the way here. Yeah. How many years later? And our Irish listeners certainly know about it. Absolutely. We are coming for you guys. Linda and Charlotte Mulhall were famously christened the Scissor Sisters by the media immediately after the guilty verdicts were announced.

Pop quiz. Thank God. The one you've been waiting for. Thank God it's over. I'm going to find out why they're called the Scissor Sisters. Why did the media dub the Scissor Sisters when scissors were not even used at any point in the crime? A, using alliteration in a title or headline is 75% more effective at selling newspapers. B, it's a reference to an American pop rock band called Scissor Sisters.

C. An investigator intentionally misled a reporter about the murder weapon being a pair of scissors to filter out false confessions and the details stuck. A. Alliteration? No. I'm fucking blowing it. It's okay. C. No. Made that up. I don't remember what the

American Scissor Sisters rock band? Yes. Okay. It's crazy. So it is a reference to the band Scissor Sisters, but it's being used in a darkly ironic way by the media because the band Scissor Sisters is known for their lively pop music and like flamboyant lifestyle or style, which contrasts sharply with the gruesome nature of the crime committed by the Mulhall sisters. They'll say anything in a headline. Also, yes. Also, there's like some sources that say, but

This is, I actually don't think this is the reason that Linda and Charlotte having cut up their victim, it was like a nod towards that. Like, let's just say scissors. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that, but it's not it. It's my understanding is that it's after the band. Yeah, but they probably called them that after the band because of the implication. Right. It's a double entendre. Jay-Z. Uh-huh. So front man, Jake Shears of that band. Shears. Joked. Scissors. Oh, oh.

You know you've made it in this business when they name killers after you. Do you, John? Never heard of you. I mean, Jake. Jake Shears. Never heard of you, Scissors Sisters, until now. Let's delve into the patterns and behaviors associated with dismemberment. Cool. Cool. According to a September 2022 study in the Journal of Forensic Science, the relationship between offenders and victims plays a crucial role with

with respect to dismemberment. Male offenders often target strangers and they're driven by sadism in 25% of the cases while also exhibiting less methodical dismemberment patterns because it's often just in response to seeking pleasure.

In contrast, female offenders typically victimize people they know and they're more methodical. Women's motivations for dismemberment are usually defensive, aimed at eliminating evidence, and often linked to a history of intimate partner violence or a family conflict. And that absolutely checks out here with the Scissor Sisters.

After sentencing, Linda and Charlotte were immediately taken to Mount Joy Women's Prison, which is a medium security prison where they both continued to struggle with alcoholism on the inside and Linda with her mental health issues and breakdowns. The sisters did? Yes. Yeah. One time in prison after a model head she was using for hairdressing, Linda now, was taken by another inmate.

Linda fell to her knees and began crying uncontrollably, saying that the lost head had brought back the image of Farrah's lost decapitated head that she buried twice. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, PTSD. Meanwhile, Charlotte was actually two months pregnant while she had been awaiting trial, and by the time the trial concluded and she was incarcerated, she had already given birth.

her infant son, just eight months old, initially joined her in prison so that she could care for him. However, when he turned one, he was taken away from her. And this is a stark reality that underscores just how deep and lasting the impact of this case has had on the most innocent of all. Because to me, the truest victims of this highly disturbing case are

are all the children that were caught in the crosshairs. Oh, yeah. Linda's eldest son, who was just 13 years old at the time of her arrest, approached Detective Inspector Christy Mangan with a maturity beyond his years, shook the detective's hand, and asked that he take care of his mammy, which is so sad. Yeah. And...

The 17-year-old daughter of Farah Noor, who resided in Kenya and was born during Farah's earlier legitimate marriage back in Kenya, tragically collapsed and died shortly after learning that her father had been murdered in Ireland. She was unwell.

Okay, but...

Yeah.

Here, the unique dynamics within the Mulhall family for sure played a significant role in what happened. The confirmed background of abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, and dysfunction within the family totally provided a complex backdrop to this crime.

A forensic psychologist named Dr. Ciara Stanton, who I mentioned in part one, claimed that the sisters decapitated Farrah in order to remove torment, right? We mentioned this as he'd been verbally abusive and made crude comments that started the chain of events that led to the murder. And she asserted that they cut off his penis as a signal of power. Yeah. I mean, you remember what Linda said when she cut off his penis. Now you're never going to rape my ma again. Oh.

Yeah. I mean, and also I don't think people realize how often alcohol and drugs play into people's situations who wind up in jail, not just drunk driving arrests or drunk driving accidents where someone dies or drug dealing, but like I'd be interested to find out how many or what percentage of people in jail were under the influence when they committed the crime that landed them in jail. Yeah. I also was interested by this, but just in,

in terms of this specific case, because given the prolonged drug abuse and the significant amount of drugs and alcohol consumed at the time of the murder, I wondered if they could have presented a defense based on psychological impairment, like drug-induced psychosis. But the defense attorneys didn't argue drug-induced psychosis because, and I thought this was surprising, but apparently high doses or frequent use of ecstasy, while it can significantly disrupt neurotransmitter systems, it

It can lead to severe psychological effects like hallucinations, delusions, and paranoia, which are all symptoms of psychosis. Yeah, it's a stimulant. Exactly. Apparently, the brutal nature of the crime and the evident planning involved in the disposing of the body parts indicated a level of premeditation that made it challenging to argue that the act was solely due to drug-induced psychosis, so they never even raised it. Yeah. But, and you've said this before too, I

I believe it's not even just the excessive drug use at the time. It's all the buildup. The wear and tear. Before that. Oh yeah. And the implications that that can have on your mental capacity. Yeah. There's, listen, you, I'm not saying this would obviously be crazy, but like if someone woke up from a night of heavy drinking and was hung over,

and they were in a tremendous amount of pain, that you're in a different mindset then, even though you're not under the influence of the drug at that time, you're under the influence of the consequences of drugs

the drug. Yeah. Interesting. You just, when you use drugs like that all the time and drink all the time, you're never in your right mind. I'm so surprised that they didn't try to argue some type of impairment on some level. If you do that, then that means that their danger or lack thereof to society is contingent on whether or not they use drugs. And I don't know if you can paint like sobriety, a condition of somebody's

I mean, once they serve time, you can. Yeah. And they're on parole. But the assumption that they're not going to use drugs and if they don't use drugs, then they won't kill anybody is a little gray. No, that's a good argument. Thank you. Selling a little or a lot?

Shopify helps you do your thing. However you cha-ching. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. From the launch your online shop stage to the first real life store stage, all the way to the did we just hit a million orders stage.

Shopify is here to help you grow. Whether you're selling scented soap or offering outdoor outfits, Shopify helps you sell everywhere from their all-in-one e-commerce platform to their in-person POS system. Wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify has got you covered. Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers with the internet's best converting checkouts.

15% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And sell more with less effort thanks to Shopify Magic, your AI-powered all-star. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US. And Shopify is the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen,

and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across 175 countries. Plus, Shopify's award-winning 24-7 help is there to support your success every step of the way. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash odysseypodcast, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash odysseypodcast now to grow your business, no matter what stage you're in. shopify.com slash odysseypodcast

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget.

Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Are they psychopaths? These people? Yeah. Linda and Charlotte, are they psychopaths?

Uh, Charlotte, I would say yes. Linda, no. I'm with you. I'm with you. And I don't, I don't actually know about Charlotte, but the morning after the murder at 11 a.m., Linda, Charlotte, and Kathleen casually went out to breakfast with Farrah's severed head in a bag.

which suggests a level of cold and calculated behavior, possibly even mental dissociation. Psychopathy. Well. I like that word. That's the only reason I said it. Oh, okay. It is chilling to think that they could eat egg sandwiches in public with the head.

of the man who, by the way, Kathleen presumably loved just hours after killing him. But this act alone does not conclusively define them as psychopaths because psychopathy involves a broader range of behavior and traits, including persistent antisocial behavior, lack of empathy, and remorselessness. Linda certainly experienced tremendous remorse. Charlotte, not so much, but I don't know that she lacked empathy

or had antisocial behavior in her life. You know? All three have to be present? Those are the classic symptoms, yeah. You can't just like not feel remorse and then be considered a psychopath. It's more than that. Okay.

So there can be little doubt that Farah Swalanoor was a nasty, violent, abusive man. And it's quite possible that he would have actually wound up killing Kathleen or someone else had he himself not been killed first. Yeah. But even though he was a piece of shit, the fact remains that no one has the right to kill and chop up another human being.

And Farinor actually left behind a devastated family back in Kenya. His mother, Samoa Bakari Shigu, sent a fax to Detective Sergeant McDonald on February 1st, 2006, saying the following. This is all in the letter, okay?

Fate is very strong, and as human beings, we are to succumb to it. This is what befell my late dear son, who really cared for me as a mother and his family. I had really cherished the idea of availing myself in Ireland so as to pay my last respect to my beloved son, who was brutally murdered. What haunts me and the entire family most is the fact that the remnants of my son's body are yet to be buried. In our holy scripture, we are told, "'We are from God, and to him we shall return.'"

On this note and humbly, with tears of despondency streaming on my face, I hereby give the coroner my consent so that his body is laid to rest. On the same note, I would like to register my heartfelt appreciation to the government of Ireland for its sincere and genuine concern for human rights, free from favor or discrimination. Thank you in advance. Damn, where'd you go? The Slater School of Writing? That was a pretty good letter, right? I know, I was so impressed by it.

So on March 10th, the dismembered body of 39-year-old Faris Walenor was taken to Glasnevin Cemetery for burial. About 40 people gathered to take part in a traditional Muslim ceremony to remember him. A prayer service took place in Stanford's funeral home before he was buried in a plot paid for by the taxpayer.

In conclusion, the infamous saga of the Scissor Sisters etched a stark, indelible mark on Ireland's criminal chronicles. Linda and Charlotte Mulhall committed... Criminal chronicles. That was nice. Yeah. Alliteration. Christmas chronicles. It reminded me of that. Yeah. Linda and Charlotte Mulhall committed ruthless, savage, barbaric acts when they murdered and dismembered Farinor. Although they faced harsh circumstances in life, it in no way excuses these

these heinous acts. Yeah, no. However, understanding their background is crucial when attempting to answer the elusive questions of why and how such a disaster could occur. I love something that D.I. Christie Mangan said in his book, which the book, by the way, is called Cracking the Case Inside the Mind of a Top Garda.

And this is what he said, quote, in order to build a rapport with a person who has murdered another human being, it is important to gain an understanding of their life experiences. In one of our numerous conversations, Linda told me that she'd been subjected to indescribable violence by a former partner. She just wanted to be treated well. When after her conviction, I asked her why she admitted to the murder, she simply replied, you treated me well.

Because ultimately, at the beginning, the end, and every stage in between, perpetrators are, after all, simply human. And it is in everyone's best interest to understand what drives them to step over that line so we can better prevent such actions from happening again and foster a safer, more compassionate society where everyone benefits. Amen, sister.

And that's the case of the sisters. By the way, Charlotte's allowed unsupervised day visits now as of 2022. Okay. Did you know that in Ireland, a life sentence means that a person can only apply to the parole board after 12 years doesn't actually mean that they're like required to be imprisoned for life.

For life. Oh, that reminds me of that lifetime guarantee bullshit. It's guaranteed for the lifetime of the product. Oh, caveat. Did you know that? No, I didn't. Oh, it's so stupid. It's such a bullshit selling point. There's a lifetime guarantee. We used to give a lifetime guarantee on the fence from the manufacturer, but the lifetime guarantee was like 20 years. That's the lifetime of the fence. Got it. So that was the case, man. Very good.

Very well done. Thank you. The storytelling was top tier.

Premium. Thank you. Couldn't have done it without you with your top tier commentary. I did what? What's the fees? Definitely could have done it without me. No, no. I wouldn't want to do it without you. Exactly. I wouldn't want to. Exactly. It would be so fucking boring. I know. It might as well be an audio book at that point. You know what I'm saying? Just kidding, Slater. Just kidding. Oh, here I am like supporting you. Okay. No, no. I was just kidding about saying it would be so fucking boring. I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Please, please. I know my place in this. I know my role in this podcast. Yeah, it's important. Don't go anywhere. I'm a cackling, dim-witted asshole.

Of the podcast. You remember that line. Just came to me right now. Amazing. All right. Wow. Well, that was some case. And to our Irish listeners, I hope you enjoyed that. I hope everyone enjoyed it, but... Absolutely. This was for everyone, but a definite wink at our Irish people. Yeah. My DNA is screaming to be accepted by Irish people. Okay. I think you are. I hope so. But I remember being in Montauk when I was very young and I was drunk at the time, so I was probably saying a lot of dumb stuff, but...

There used to be a lot of Irish girls who would work in Montauk, like over the summer. It was some kind of like program they had set up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know about it? I do. Okay. And I was out at a bar one night drinking when I was drinking and I was like, I'm Irish. And they're like, you're not fucking Irish. You're not Irish enough. Yeah. Like I'm not Irish. I'm American. Right. But you're of Irish lineage. Exactly. That's fine. Well...

I'm 0.01% Polynesian and I will stand by that. Moana. That's right. Moana Slater. Thank you very much. Do you have a tanks tidbit for us? Well, it is time for a tanks tidbit. It works really well with this case. I don't know what made me write this to myself. It was in the context of

some kind of desperate attempt to understand life and stop feeling pain. I just wrote, we as a species are imperfect. Like I'm not especially imperfect compared to anyone else. And neither really is anybody else. Some people, if there's a spectrum of imperfection, which there is obviously because perfection is unattainable and

no redeeming qualities is like just doesn't exist it never has even ted bundy was someone's son at one point you know what i mean just the scale on which i judge myself has loosened up immensely because i don't hold myself to standards that are not achievable anymore when i used to big time and you know character defects are something that's talked about in recovery and uh you know one of the steps is became you know ready to have these defects of character removed

And it took me such a long time to realize that I used to think that character defects were the things that I beat myself up about. But I found out that beating myself up was like my biggest character defect. Oh, wow. So that was a huge turning point as well. So if you're beating yourself up, I don't mean to be as simple as saying try not doing that, but like try not doing that. How do you get better if you don't call yourself out?

Get better at what? Whatever it is you're shitting on yourself about. Shitting on yourself has never been productive. And I want to get better at loving myself, so shitting on myself is contradictory to that. I mean, that might have been too intense the way I said it. Well, listen, if you want to get better at baseball, you can't just let yourself suck at baseball. Right. I'm talking about living being the human experience. You know, you make mistakes and...

The more I grill myself over the mistakes I make, the more likely I am to make mistakes in the future because my brain wants to create that feeling that I'm familiar with, which is bad. Yeah. And my subconscious goes, you've been doing good for a while. I think you should, you know...

yell at your son so you feel bad. I don't get it. You don't get it? Sorry. What do you mean? That part I didn't get. So the, I've said this before. Oh, oh, you're doing too well. I'm going to make you feel like shit right now. The subconscious. Right. Got it. I'm sorry. Which is the real driver in the, in the brain is saying like, you're doing too well. Like self-sabotage. Oh yeah.

Self-loathing, when self-centeredness and trauma intersect, self-loathing is born out of that. Right, you said that. Or imprints on the person in that moment. So to the level that self-loathing imprints, that determines how, I don't want to say bad, but how contradictory your actions are going to be to what you say you want versus what you do. You know what I mean? Yeah. So-

The main tidbit is take it easy on yourself. Be kind to yourself. I like that. Just for this moment. Have grace for yourself. Just for the next 30 seconds if you can't do it for a whole day. Yeah. You know, when I give myself grace, which took me a while. So I had a very tough time in college. And I always kick myself because I'm like, those were supposed to be our best years. You know what I mean? And-

I feel regret and I couldn't go to a homecoming. I know it sounds silly for you. I never actually have been to a homecoming because I don't want to go back because I don't want to be reminded of how badly I fucked it up. You know what I mean? Yeah. The last time we went back to the University of Maryland when we were like looking at the criminal justice buildings and stuff like that, I had some kind of experience, some kind of healing moment finally at 41 years old where I was like,

can you please forgive the 20 year old girl who was having a hard time and did the best she could tools she had at the time. Can you just forgive her and move on? Like, and it was so healing. And Dave was there for it too. And he like could witness this. He's like, I 20 years in the making Brooke, 20 years in the making. Cause he was always trying to tell me all these years, like,

You were going through something and that's okay. And I'm like, but I squandered my college years. You know what I mean? But it weighed heavily. I didn't really retain any college friends. Like I shut that book and like threw it against the wall. See, the danger of doing that is squandering the only thing you can possibly squander, which is the present moment. And if you're doing that about something that happened 20 years ago,

obviously that's not going to, you know, we tend to, that's why I said Linda probably felt relieved when she got the punishment she deserved. She did. She said, thank God it's over. I know, but that's sad also. Well, not that, not that she said, thank God it's over, but it's like, she knew what she did. She did wrong. Kind of like when my son does something wrong and he's like, what are you going to take my iPad away? And he's not being bratty. He's like scared that that's what I'm going to do. So he just says it. He confronts it. And he used to, when we were, when he was younger, I don't know if I ever even told you this,

When he did something wrong, he'd be like, you're going to throw me in the woods and rub me in the poison ivy, aren't you? I'm like, what, dude? That was like the worst thing he could think of. What are you talking about? No, no, absolutely not. But the fact that he thought he deserved that is something that made me like, all right, dude, take it easy on him in general. Yeah. Just a kid. Forgive the – you forgiving yourself.

Forgive the seven-year-old boy who didn't brush his teeth the first time you asked. And got his dad mad. Relax. Exactly. I let myself get mad. I like it. All right. So with that said, thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for watching, if you're watching. Yep. And sticking it out through a two-parter, no less. Yeah. We'll see you guys at the next episode. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.