Let’s Talk About Sex, with Cynthia Lloyst
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Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever this finds you. This is the Jan Arden Podcast. I'm sitting next to Cynthia Loison. If any of you faithful, loyal listeners are wondering, why is the audio so crap? Well, Cynthia and I are sitting together in my little crash pad in Toronto. Hello, Cynthia. Hello. It's my fault, basically. It's not your fault. It's kind of my fault. We're recording this early. We're also here with Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh. They're in Toronto. We're all in Toronto.

We are doing a pre-record on this podcast using Chris Brunton's computer, my road manager, because we tried to do the podcast. Cynthia's in my condo because we're going to go for a walk. And we got that horrible echo thing. We tried ear pods. We tried everything. So you're going to be stuck with this tinny audio, although- Deal with it. Yeah. Cynthia's voice is like velvet. Oh, right. Really. This is actually an ASMR experience. Hello. Hello.

We're going to crinkle some tables. That's my script, but thank you so much. But anyway, we're doing this because I'm recording the Jan Show Christmas special next week. And well, this week, actually, it'll already be recorded by the time you guys hear this. Listen, Cynthia, thanks for being on the show today. And last night, I just want to start off with this.

I was able to go to journalists for human rights at the Brickyard. I saw on some clips online. So talk about this. Well, it was a bunch of people, a bunch of women that I've long admired. Wendy Mesley, Anna Maria Tremonti, Lisa Laflamme. I know I'm missing people. There was just so many amazing women there that are doing such killer things and I

They're doing things in support of human rights all over the world. There was a speaker from Afghanistan. She's one of the 1,600 people, journalists and their families that have been extricated out of Afghanistan. And it's because of this group of individuals. It's because of journalists raising millions of dollars to...

keep journalists safe all over the world to enable them to keep telling their stories. But it was just a really great night. It was my first out and about COVID night. How do you feel? I hope I don't have COVID and I hope I'm not giving it to you right now. Yeah, you're a little close right now. Yeah, I'm a little close, but you're not going to get it because I'm chewing gum.

I guess that is not, that is not a real thing. No, that's a lie. No, I am chewing gum right now because I didn't want to be this close to you. I'm breathing my like breath, my coffee breath on your face. And I can't, I have no, well, that's all the time we have for, for today.

But it was really, it was a great experience. And I don't know, you said you saw some clips. Lisa and I sang a song called Steady On Together. And she said that one of my songs has been so inspiring for her. And she has been singing it at the top of her lungs. I know she called me, oh gosh, in the summer when she was reporting from Ukraine. She said, do you mind if I use a 30-second clip?

of Steady On on the newscast to wrap up the evening. And I'm like, I'd be honored. And she said, I just was singing that song the whole time I was over there. So we sang that together last night. Lisa was up there. It takes a lot of balls. Holy moly. To get up in front of all her colleagues and to sing. And she just, she has a great voice.

Who knew? I didn't know that. No, she's super funny. And her partner, Michael, is hilarious. And he was running around fundraising. And anyway, the people in the room last night, I think there was about 250 of us.

Just the people in that room, we raised $81,000. Wow. I'm giving you a round of applause. That's amazing. No, it's great. So partway through, people were like 500, 1,000, 10,000. A lot of banks stepped up, which I was like, awesome. There's our money going out the window. What do you call that?

I don't know. What do you mean? They're donations. What are you looking for? I'm looking for, were they auctioning things? No, I mean, there were auctioning things. Oh, forget it. Just forget it.

Anyway, that's a beautiful song. I shouldn't have done those mushrooms before you got here. You really shouldn't. You got to fix that problem. Sarah, are you going to say anything? Help me here. I wanted to know, actually, like if I were Lisa LaFlemme, I would, you know, I'd be really proud showing up at events right now based on the way that her viewers have reacted to her news. What was your take on that last night?

You got a huge standing ovation. Yeah, she did. She and I co-hosted. And this was planned six months ago. I knew that I was doing this with her. But when they announced, you're our host tonight, you know, Lisa, the whole room stood up for a long time.

clapping, very emotional. She looks so great. Like when she walked in the room, she was just beaming. And for the first time they've been doing this, uh, the journalist for human rights for 20 years. It was started by two 20 year old kids back in the day. Um, but all four of her sisters, three, four of her, all her sisters were there.

They've never been all together in a room for such a long time. And Lisa Laflamme, they're all like different. They're like Russian dolls. They all look the same. Beautiful, beautiful, like steely eyes and shoulders back and strong. And, and you just see the solidarity. I don't have sisters. You do. Yeah. You got to love Carrie, your beautiful sister, but I'm just like,

I'm looking at them going, what would that have been like? I've got two brothers, which is great, but sisters must be something else. There is a certain bond with that. I mean, I just love the idea of, I wish I'd been there. Like, I just would have loved to have been in a room, that room full of powerful women whose voices still need to be out there.

And I just, yeah, the world of journalism needs those voices. And Anna Maria Tremonti has also been through so much. There are so many stories there. Oh my God. I just love when she came up to me.

I was actually like fanning out. I have seen her in various helmets over the years, reporting from the field, reporting from difficult situations, whether it's famines, wars, floods, turmoil, Ebola. Like Anna Maria has just been out there. And she just, she came up to me and I felt,

I almost had imposter syndrome for most of the evening. I felt kind of unworthy to be there, but I had so much support and I had people reminding me of how important

music is in the field. Like Lisa said, music saved me so much of the time, putting in my headphones, my earbuds, your Walkman, you know, back in the day and playing music from home, playing music that reminded you of where you were from and made you hopeful and sort of a bomb for the soul when there's literally bombs blowing up

you know, 10 miles from where you're reporting from. So I was really, but I did, I had imposter syndrome. Fascinating. For most of the night, I just was, I was rubberneck and I just felt like I was looking around going, Oh, there's Heather Hitchcock there. Oh, there's,

It was just so many cool people. I'm so glad I went to the event. I bet you they felt the same, though, when they would come to talk to you. You're kind of a big deal too, Miss Jan Arden. Thank you very much. But it really is about this really beautiful forward, the solidarity, once again, that's my word for the evening, of raising money to help journalists get out of these war-torn countries and

And it's not always about war either. It's about a lot of things. Countries don't have to be at war to be attacking their journalists, to be suppressing their journalists. You know, China, for instance, one of the speakers from Kenya last night was talking about these leaders that go in very early on and they shut down any kind of independent press forever.

Free press, you know, young people that are out there with cameras telling stories. They shut it down. This is what's happening in Iran right now, right? Yeah, we just talked about that, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you guys have talked about that on the show. Yeah, we have, and...

When you and it's specifically around controlling women in many cases. And, you know, we can never be complacent. You know, we think this is something that only happens in certain parts of the world. And I just feel like with what's happening in the United States right now, I think we're veering ever closer. We can never be complacent about women's rights.

So I think raising awareness and that solidarity, knowing that there's a connected line between ourselves and other women around the world that we need to stand up for. But it's a very intense thing. The journalists get up close and personal in the work that they do. Here's my question to you, because a lot of people feel like they don't have a way to help.

they're sitting at home with their cup of coffee, watching the news and they feel displaced from what's happening. So how, how do we help? How does, how do we help women journalists, racialized people, um, that are being shut up. They're being tortured. They're being imprisoned. I,

I don't know. I think people feel helpless. I don't think there's one answer for that. I do know we've had experts on the show, people from certain parts of the world, and they just say, like, share stories, amplify voices. I think the more awareness... There was a story that I shared on the show recently about a woman who had actually...

been arrested and I believe it was in Iran for attending a men's soccer game, which was against the law there. And so the morality police came in and they arrested the morality of police, which sounds last week we were talking about what, what a joke that is, you know, when your girlfriend's going out and you're like, are you actually going to wear that? What are you, the morality police? I mean, I don't think any of us really knew where that stamp came from. Yeah. And there really is a morality police. So this woman ended up, um,

you know, in protest, setting herself on fire. And in reaction to that, there was such pressure put on their government, in particular, their soccer rules or their football rules, that they changed the rules. And now women are allowed, given a certain area of the soccer field, but they are allowed to attend there. So that's an example of something that happens

I mean, it's a horrible story, but it had an impact in the world. And then change was made because there was pressure put on. And that's, I think, the best that we can hope for besides donating money. We can amplify voices, we can put pressure on our governments. And then, you know, you hope that there will be a ripple effect from there. Standing in solidarity, like you said, Jen. Cynthia Loyst from one of the wonderful hosts from The Social. Ten years they've been on the air, ten seasons of The Social.

a group of really powerful, intelligent, funny women that you guys stand up to a lot of crap too. But anyway, we've got lots to talk about today. I'm going to pick Cynthia's brain just about things that she doesn't even know yet. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Adam Karsh, Sarah Burke, and myself, Jan Arden Podcast. Hello, welcome back, Jan Arden Podcast. Our special guest...

She's an author. She's very philanthropic. She's a mom. She's a daughter. She's a sister. She's a television show host. She's a writer, a producer. Pleasure pusher. She's a pleasure pusher. She knows more about sexuality than I did in 1979, which is saying a lot because I was at the top of my game.

No, no, that wasn't the top of my game. 89. Okay, forget it. Cynthia, you have been single parenting the last three months, and I'm going to tell people why. Your husband is a very gifted photographer, director of photography, filmmaker, and he's been working on Son of a Critch. He really has been. In Newfoundland. Newfoundland.

And you suddenly after eight years of co-parenting with this man, he up and left you to go make money. What kind of a,

guy is he anyway? It was hard. I have a whole new respect for single parents, single moms in particular. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to done. Like really, really. Because it was just like having a full-time job and having a kind of focus there and then having my side hustles and then trying to manage a child's schedule and meals. And then also like the, no one prepares you for, my son is nine now.

And we'll get into that because I was pregnant when I auditioned for the social. So let's just talk about that. But anyway, it was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but I also feel like a superhero because I did it and I kept his, I think his, the essence of his personality intact. I didn't ruin him in any way. What,

What's your biggest learning about this single parenting so far? I would say I can do it. I had this fear that I wasn't going to be able to manage it and I wasn't going to be able to manage it. Because there are some times where if you are lucky enough to have a partner when you're parenting, there's a point at which you always spell each other off. You're like, I am so tired. I'm so done. You got to do bedtime tonight. Or I am done. You're going to make dinner tonight. And I did it all. I did have this moment, and I hope my partner doesn't listen to this, where I was like,

do I even need you? When you come back,

Will I still need you? And I will say, though, that since he's been back, life has been easier. So it is. From a friend point of view, when I had conversations with you early days, there was an exaltation. You were very high and it's almost like you felt like, wow, I can do this. And then like six weeks in, I could feel a shift in energy.

I hope I'm doing the right things. You know, Jaya had kind of a bad night. We did this, this and this, and this is what's happening. I, you know, just, I think it started waning the reality of it. I mean, you had a light at the end of the tunnel. So many single parents don't have that light. They're looking at, they're really looking down the barrel of year after year after year of like, am I doing this on my own? And, but you, you did, I was very impressed with you. I was impressed with you.

before this happened, but you really stepped into that and it was scary and you made a lot of sacrifices. Yeah. I will say, yeah, piece of advice to any single parents out there would be to, you got to simplify.

And that was the one thing that I realized was just, well, A, you have to have a good network. I think the only way you survive that is by also having like a mom, a community of other moms and parents and kid friends that you can rely on. That to me was a lifesaver knowing that I could be like, okay, after camp, you're going to go to so-and-so's house. And that like, otherwise I would have never had a moment to myself, but also you have to like,

We have this perfection problem with motherhood in particular now. And I don't know, Adam, Sarah, like Jan, our moms, they gave less fucks. They gave less fucks.

And I don't know about you, but like there was a little bit of like, you know, go out and play for a bit. And I know there's safety issues. We're not living in that exact same world, but we live in the world where it's like, is my kid eating exactly the right things at the exact right times? Like I had to throw in certain towels being like, you're eating chicken nuggets again tonight. Fine.

You're going to go and you're going to have extra screen time. Like there were certain things I had to be like, you know what? It's good enough. Good enough parenting. I'm with you. Thank you. Sometimes you have to let the iPad do all the parenting. You kind of do. I can barely look after my dog.

Like, and I mean that when you're talking about get out, get outside. We'll see you in four hours. Go do it. When we were growing up further to that, we'd get kicked outside and then I'd hear the door lock. It's like, was that the deadbolt that just went off behind me? I'll ring the bell when it's time to eat. And I've talked about this before. My mom worked, my dad worked.

My older brother was AWOL. My younger brother, he was five years younger than me, was, you know, he was...

Very self-sufficient. But I was just like, my mom would put stuff in the crock pot. She'd load in some mystery meat in the morning, go get something out of the freezer. And of course my parents bought like a half a hog or a half a cow from the neighbors and everything was wrapped in brown wax paper. I didn't know a pork chop from a gonad. Honestly, I brought up whatever. It went into the crock pot with a can of tomatoes, some rice,

two potatoes, and maybe a half a cabbage if that's what she had. And that's what, I mean, so talking about meals, yes, we ate everything. I find meal prepping for me, one person living alone, a huge undertaking. So I can't even imagine doing it for a family. No, I don't. I really don't know how I, I'm in awe of parents and how they're navigating social media and

stuff, getting their kids into sports, you know, kind of, I don't know, vetting their friendships. Do you find that you do that? That's an interesting question. I mean, you definitely, you know, you have to surround yourself with people like I have an only child, right. And don't, you know, that's a nut to crack. Like I have so much guilt over having an only child. I have, you know, this kind of,

I'm not even going to go down that road right now. But anyway, to say that because he's an only child, I have to really, really make sure that that social piece is there. So yeah, when it comes to friends, I think any of my recent friends have been as a result of, do you have a kid? Is the kid around my kid's age? Does he have a felony? That's right. What do you care about that? I'm okay with that as long as they're going to play with my kid. Is it what you thought it would be?

That idea from the time, you know, we're little girls or young women to have a child. Is it anywhere close to what you had imagined? I never, I mean, you know this about me. I was very resistant to the idea of becoming a parent. I didn't think I wanted to be a parent.

So I wasn't one of those kids who grew up playing with dollies and imagining myself pregnant one day and becoming a mom. That was not part. I would like Barbie dolls. I like to have my Barbie dolls dry humping each other. Like that was my idea. Fantasize about motherhood. And, and it really, I was pretty much on the path of, I'm not going to, I'm going to be childless by choice. And then I hit around 33 and I was kind of like, I wonder if I never even tried to,

to get pregnant. I wonder if I might regret it down the road. So I was just like, Jace, maybe we should just give it a go and see. And I thought maybe we'll have a year for me to get used to the idea in case it happens because so many of my friends struggled with fertility. And then we got pregnant right away. Adam's pointing at himself because he and his wife, they struggled for years to get pregnant. Yeah, that was a five-year journey. Five years. Five years. But now I have two beautiful girls.

nine and 11 and they're great. Oh, see, I can be friends with you because my son is nine. Oh, let's do a play date after. Well, okay. We'll figure that out. Well, I spent my twenties and a good part of my thirties praying that I wasn't pregnant. I just, I would say I'm never going to do it again. I won't drink again. I that's, I, that was so much of my young womanhood was just being promiscuous and

The last thing I worried about was pregnant until my period was maybe like a week late. Then I was like, oh, no. But I had a mother, and I'm not kidding you. Well, you know your dad and I will take that baby. So you can keep singing and do whatever you want, but dad and I will help. So when you, I swear to God, the mother that I had, and when you think about my lifestyle, because I had boyfriends, I had girlfriends,

It was just like, you're a normal person and you're a private person. And I would look at her. I'm like, what planet are you from? But she was absolutely earnest in her belief in me as a person. And it is absolutely why I'm the way I am. And my dad, even though he was so drunk and gruff and tough and hard to be around, he was extremely liberal.

So, but when I think about you, you know, people trying to get pregnant, I just, I prayed that I wasn't for so long. I think your mom though, really loved mothering from what it sounds like. And we're going to come back to that. Okay. Um, and with Cynthia Loyce, Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, Jen Arden podcast, don't go away. This is a, this is going to, we're getting, we're going deeper. We're going to go dirty, deep and dirty.

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A cola or a cream soda, root beer, yes indeedy. And they've got their limited edition summer flavor, which will take you right back to the second grade. You got to try the ice pop one. Head to janardenpod.com to find out where the closest place to you is where you can go and buy Cove. Go right now. We are back with Cynthia Loyst. I have to preface this next segment by saying that

Cynthia really is an absolute gem.

professionally trained sex educator. Yeah. And I, you are a go-to for so many of my friends. Can you ask Cynthia about, I'm like, you ask her yourself. One of the most interesting nights I ever had with you, and I've had many, I'm very lucky to call you friend. You and I went down to New York for a weekend with my dear friend, Nigel, who we've talked about on this show many, many times from England. He was there on work and we went up

We were in the Soho because he's a member of the Soho things for journalists. I've been to that. I've been to one. Yeah, it's a rooftop in New York and I felt so fancy going up there. And I was just looking around. But Cynthia is one of those dinner guests that you just pray for. I have never heard Nigel speak about things that he was talking about in my life. Like I said, 20 plus years I've known the man.

But you have a way, and it really goes into your show and how you interview and how you speak to people. You get shit out of people that's unbelievable. Like I was literally like watching something surreal. And he said it was one of the most gratifying moments.

That he was seen and understood and able to talk about things he's never spoken about in his life. I love that. Because of you. That makes me really feel good. I mean, I just, I find sexuality to be a really, really interesting, and relationships and love, like, it is one of the few areas that we...

that unites us all. And yet we feel often so deeply uncomfortable. There's so much shame attached to it. There's so much like, oh, is what I do or what I want or what I think about, is that normal? Like all those types of things. And I've been captivated by the kind of feeling it's an area that you shouldn't talk about since I was very young. I was raised Catholic. I never got the talk from my parents. And there was this kind of, I remember being

probably around 13 or 14. And, you know, in Catholic school, you sort of learn that like sex for procreation is the only type of sex that you're supposed to have. Right. So I, I went up to my parents one day and I said, so let me get this straight. You've only had sex twice in order to have my sister and me and my mom calling them out, get out of here, like get out of the room here. But you know, it was from a very young age that I was just like, you know what?

I'm going to, I'm going to become, you know, my sister ended up, the long-ish story is that my sister got pregnant when she was a teenager, unintentionally pregnant. And when I witnessed the amount, the shift in what she had to take on as a result of becoming a single parent, single teenage parent,

I realized the very real impact that happens when we don't talk about sex, particularly for young women. So I made it my aim to become an expert and I became a producer around a show around sexuality. I went to University of Michigan and it's always been my passion to get people to talk more openly about it because I literally think it is a feminist cause for me. Aside from that, it's also just very interesting. I don't want to sit around and make small talk about sports.

Thousands of years of oppression. Thousands of years of shame. I can't say that it's an easy thing for me to discuss. It was so uncomfortable for me growing up too. Like, exactly. How so, Sarah? I think my mom gave, if I remember correctly, gave me a book. And like when I opened the book, it was telling me to like put a mirror down there and figure things out. And I was like, can we just like talk about it instead? Like, you know, it's uncomfortable for a young girl to...

especially when you go to school, right? And wondering what the other kids know, what they don't know, right? It's a weird thing. Boobs, boobs, when you start getting boobs, all the things. All of it. It's really interesting as a parent now too because I, of course,

Previously, it was just all about talking about having age-appropriate conversations with your kids. And so now I've had to put my money where my mouth is because my son's been growing up and asking questions. And it's been really interesting. Adam, I don't know if you're starting to have those kinds of questions come up. What are the questions? I think my younger one, so she'll be nine in weeks. I think she's more advanced than my oldest, who's 11. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

God. What do they ask? I got a note from both of you. It's not so much what they ask. It's more like they're just aware. The twerking. I'm like, stop it.

I mean, the questions that I get asked are things like, what's a tampon? Like that, that happened this morning. Okay. He knew what a tampon was and he goes, what is this? So, you know, having a conversation around menstruation, trying to keep it kind of succinct before their eyes glaze over and they just walk away. There's also like how, how did, you know, the, the, the basic like basic,

how to sperm an egg meat. Like, but I don't put it that way, but it's like, I also, I got this great book, which I highly recommend for any parent of probably the nine to 11 year olds. It's called sex is a funny word. And it's written by Corey Silverberg. And the book is this graphic novel, very, very animated. And it's got these wonderful stories and it deals with all of the aspects of sexuality. It's about gender identity. It's about body image. It's about flirting. It's about crushes. And we got, my son and I got to the very end of this book.

And we closed the book and basically all along there's questions you can ask that prompt discussions and, and Jaya goes to me, so what is sex? And it deals with everything, but it was a great thing because it was just like, actually sex is so much more than the way that we were taught, which is just like penis and vagina. That's, you know, that is sex. What's not, it's so much more than that, which I just loved. Well, there's the question. What is sex? Ask a million people, get a million different answers.

So it's funny, I had a Mormon friend and they used to talk a lot about Levi loving because of course they couldn't have intercourse until they were married. So Mormons got married at 18, 17, whenever they could get married. So just they could have sex.

Get out of the effing house and for anyone Mormon listening who I've got this completely wrong. I was raised Mormon, too So I left the church when I was very very young so I'm not speaking from nowhere my entire lineage on my dad's side are Mormons that came across an ocean Settled in Salt Lake came up in covered wagons from Salt Lake and settled in Carsten Alberta where one of the first Mormon temples is So I'm not just speaking

I just want people to know that. But anyway, yeah, Levi Lovin. That's like trying something? Yeah, they'd have orgasms. But Levi Lovin was a much easier thing to say than masturbate or, God forbid, you should use an actual word. But yeah, it is so different. You turned me on to a book like a couple years ago, I think maybe just –

the first year of the pandemic. And it was about, there was a line in there that stuck with me. I know exactly. Okay. Well, the book is called, I think, uh, why we need to talk more about sex and it's by Alan de Botton. Yeah. And the one line was like, you need to find someone.

like who can do the things with you, those unspeakable things that you, I, you remember the quote, but it just sunk into me. Like there is someone out there for each of us that you can engage in those, in the things that you, those unspeakable things that seem so weird, but there's people that,

We'll share that thing with you. Yeah. I mean, the book is so wonderful because it's a really, I'm not doing it any justice. You make it sound a bit creepy to be honest. I really, I'm sorry. No, it was the way he said it was so beautiful. It is beautiful. It's a beautiful book. And I think it's also, it's very lighthearted. And I think what he's saying is we need to both sex is both wonderful and magical and kind of gross and funny and awkward. Like it is all of the things.

And I think one of the great things about the internet is that it's allowed for people who maybe have very obscure and specific desires or interests. They can now find each other. Like if you, if you're one thing that gets you horny is the sound of a popping balloon. And I kid you not, that is a thing for some people.

Back in the day, you just have to pop your own balloons and hope for the best. And now you can find a whole community of balloon poppers out there. And I mean, what a wonderful thing is that? It's funny, the kids today growing up too, I heard once recently,

There's something like 47 sexual identities out there, you know, everything from like demisexual and gray sexual. And when I first started hearing this, I was just like, Jesus, what the hell? And then I started thinking, like, what a wonderful thing that people are sitting back and considering very specifically who they are and what their sexuality is like.

And then communicating that with another person saying like, you know what, what I'm really into right now is this, this is how I see myself sexually. And someone else can then communicate that. Cause back in our day, it was just like,

presumed for the most part, no, I guess I got to be straight. And if you were, you know, if you didn't fit into that identity, there was a lot of shame and a lot of secrecy and many communities attached to that. And some of that still is very present depending on what community you live in. But now in like urban centers, there are people who are like, you know, defining themselves and coming out. I just love that. That's all. Well, I would imagine there's so much dissatisfaction early days, or even now because people were unable to express themselves.

what their desires were or felt unable to, if I say this, I'm going to look like a freak. We're going to keep talking about this with Cynthia because I think it's really important. Don't go away. Sarah Burke, Adam Karsh, my special friend, wonderful guest, Cynthia Loyst. And we'll be right back. Jan Arden podcast. Jan Arden podcast. We're back. Cynthia Loyst is our special guest today. And of course on the break again,

Sarah was talking about her first sexual experience. I'm going to leave. I stopped her as soon as she said sex at a mosque. So I'm just going to hand it back to you.

So Cynthia just sort of made me think about how sex has been different for me over the years, right? And early on, it was completely about the other person and me being worried about that. And then later in life, it becomes about you, right? And how can I find the pleasure that I want? And what do I need for that? But yeah, like my first experience was

terrible in the backseat of a car in a mosque parking lot. My Jewish mother happened to know what was going on and like reamed me out when I got back in the house. I was so embarrassed about the entire thing. But that is a perfect example of like you're just trying to do it because like society says like you should be sexually active. There's nothing in it for me. I

You know, I think that's the thing. And thank you for sharing that too, because I think the more I hope those stories like that, there are so many women of our generation who have the same story, which is like, it was in the back of a car. It was in the back of, for me, it was like a kind of like in a, in a, like a barn in a barn.

And I mean, it wasn't terrible, but, but I think, you know, I think what I hope for, for my, my son's generation is that they actually are starting to think about like how to talk about what they want. And, and, you know, all these conversations around consent, which some people are like, Oh, it takes all the fun and spontaneity to sex. No, it actually can make things much more, I think,

pleasurable particularly in heterosexual context particularly for the female and uh hopefully one day they'll they'll be like no more of these stories of like i don't know if we'll ever see that day maybe not i mean you're destined to be a bit awkward i just think there's there's something about it i mean i often think about this judge me if you will i think about the andertals

And I think about 100,000 years ago of how just how strange it was.

Their sexuality, I don't know if people were kissing then. I think kissing is a relatively new idea. Whenever I think about kissing, my head spins off because I'm like, I picture a mouth coming towards me and putting your mouth on somebody else's mouth. It is a very strange thing. Never mind a penis and a vagina. I think a lot of sex workers don't kiss. Yeah, very intimate. It's a very intimate thing and it's off limits. I think we're one of the only species that does that. I know. Can you speak to that? Because I've always thought so much...

about how intimate kissing is, but how weird it is. It seems like a kind of a benign thing to a lot of people, but to have someone's tongue rolling around in your mouth and jamming it down your throat, you know, if you have this unexperienced person, inexperienced, excuse me,

I mean, kissing, we could talk about that forever. It's so strange. I think it stems a lot from like a kind of primal sort of connection with our moms. And, you know, there's, there's, there's like a really interesting history to do with that. I don't know. Like I think kissing is one of the most delicious things when it's done well. Like it's, I think it's one of my favorite things in the world. What's remarkable to me is still how many people I think don't have a clue how to kiss. Yeah.

None whatsoever. I always feel like if you're on a first date and the kiss goes very wrong, in my opinion, I never went there again. I was just like, I don't even know if I want to teach somebody or help them along. Like there's sometimes there was some hopefulness. I'm like, I think I could sort this out. But then I'm like, maybe I'm not right for you.

But the kissing thing, that was, I hate to say the word deal breaker, but. It speaks to like connection a bit, right? Yeah. If you don't understand how weird this is, what you're doing, but then you feel bad. You're like, nobody's taking the time to teach him or her or them. And it's, then you kind of, you get caught up in all of that. Anyway, I don't know how people are doing kissing.

these days. I'm so afraid of it. I've talked about that on this show a lot. Why are you afraid of it? I don't know. I don't want anyone living in my house. That's not how the dating... You don't date somebody and then all of a sudden they move in two days later. Maybe they do. In a relationship, separate houses. It's beautiful. I think if I was to ever break up with Jason and be single again, I don't think I'd ever live with anybody again. Okay.

Okay, good. I'm not alone in that because I just feel like it's just not the way I see my life unfolding. But anyways, getting back to the whole kissing thing and what I was going to say, I did have a point about Neanderthals. One thing that we don't look at historically is the children. There's not a lot of anthropology or archaeological information about the children of really early people.

Well, I know this is connected with sexuality. So now these Neanderthals, they mate. They have a child. I don't even know if they understand what has happened. They have a child now, and they have to look after this child. But what happens to the kids? I know this is kind of zany. It's very zany.

I'm all in picturing is this is not obviously is it Neanderthals or Neanderthals? I don't know. I didn't know that. Okay. I'm picturing now the story of blue lagoon and Brooke shields and whatever that guy's name is. And they didn't know what the Christopher Atkins with the curly hair. And they were like, what is happening here? I have things desires. And then all of a sudden she was pregnant. I think they just figured you figure it out.

I know, but what are we right now in this conversation? What is this? Listen, this is our podcast and we find it very, very interesting. The nine people that listen to us, I'll tell you right now. Anyway, I just, that was just one of the thoughts I had is children growing up. What do you do with them? How do they have toys? Anyway, write me.

Here's a turtle shell. Have a good time. But you know what? Going back to Cynthia's point about like... Thank God somebody's going back to the point. Going back to Cynthia's point about what she hopes for, you know, for your son and Adam, you were talking about having kids at this age too. I think...

It used to be about checking a box with sexuality or even with the kiss, right? I'm supposed to have a first kiss. I'm supposed to have sex by this time or I'm a weirdo, right? I think that checking of boxes is kind of going away as kids figure out what they actually want and need and think about themselves versus pleasing only someone else. Right.

I agree. I hope you're right. And then also that kind of order of sex, like you have a kiss first and then it's a French kiss and then it's maybe somebody touches a boob or dry humps. Like there's an order, right? And then the supposedly like the pinnacle is some kind of penetrative something or other. And I think, I think we should really like,

You know, I don't know if it's known. I'm not saying reverse it, but I think, I think we need to think about like, did it feel good? Should be the marker. I never would have asked myself that ever. Yeah.

I don't think until like later in university, I even knew like what that feeling of like an orgasm was. It's like, whoa, I've been doing this way wrong. Right? And that's the thing. Like imagine if we only, you know, people even still today ask about, you know, your sex numbers or people like, you know, did you, like how many people have you had sex with or whatever? What if we only counted the orgasmic sex? What if we only were like, it was only relevant because I had an orgasm?

How would our numbers change? I feel like I want to redefine it as just like, I'm only, I've only had sex with like, I don't know, four people. Interesting. I don't know. It's sad that, like you said, Sarah, that you don't consider yourself in the equation as a young woman. So I'm wondering, I mean, we have a male with us today, Adam, and I'm wondering if,

You know what their frame of mind is? I can't imagine that it would be relatively a simple thing. I think it would be scary for men as well to enter into what to do and how to do it. Especially when they've been given no guidance from a parent, from a dad, from a mom. It can only really go wrong if you get the wrong hole. Like that's it. Oh, that's a good way to end. Uh,

I'm not a fan. Anyway, sorry. Adam's like, wrap this up. Like, where are we going down here? I'm blushing. I can't. Well, getting back to the Neanderthals. LAUGHTER

I'm sorry about that, but if you someday, there's a listener out here that's going to appreciate my view. Listen, you've been listening to the Jan Arden Podcast, my very special guest, Cynthia Loyst. Adam, you're giving us the wrap, right? We can do bonus content if you want. Well, we'll talk for a few minutes. If you stay with us, we're going to just talk about a couple of other things. Maybe I'll ask you a few questions, and we'll just do five or six minutes of...

of bonus content. But for those of you that are listening to us on the radio, thank you so much for listening. Subscribe. You'll find us every week with a lot more ease. Jan Arden podcast. We're signing off for now. We'll see you on the other side of this bonus break. Hey, so welcome to the bonus content of the Jan Arden podcast. We just thought we'd hang on to Cynthia Loyst. And once again, on our little break,

Sarah Burke brought up something that I think is a theme that runs through all of our lives. It's something we're very afraid of. It's something that's very clandestine. And that is the secret. That is a personal sexual secret that we somehow think our desires, our actions, our feelings need to be buried, hidden. And you said that your mom read your diary. What was in there?

Oh, well, I was the oldest of two girls and my parents were pretty strict, I would say, in terms of like what my friends were doing. So there was a lot of oppression is the wrong word, but you know what I mean? Like it was keeping a very close eye on me and that always made me want to like act out, if that makes sense. So yeah.

Here I am having a crush on a guy who's is smiley and goes to mosque, right? We just, in the other segment, we're talking about my first sexual experience. Well, I wrote about it in my diary.

how I was going to go and do this in the mosque parking lot with him because we had lined up a ride. We didn't drive at that time. It was grade 10. We didn't have our licenses yet. Someone else came and picked me up, went for a walk, left us in the car. Like that was the situation. So that's how my mom knew that it was going to happen. And I was so angry that she like, she kind of hinted at things that I had written in my diary. And I was like, Oh,

Like, no, like it ended with like me not talking to my mom for six months. But now I can see why she she also was afraid. Right. There's a fear and a shame around the sexuality piece for her, too. That's why this happened. But did she talk to you in advance of this? So did she bring this up before it happened? No, no, it was after. But she it was like she knew where I just came from, even though I didn't tell her.

Oh my God. And so was she, was the fear then, did it come off as she was shaming you saying like, you did this bad thing or I know what you're up to? Yeah. And you know what? I got to give it to like, we all grow up in these systems, right? And my mom grew up in, you know, a family that would have felt this way.

So this is what she knew, right? Yeah. So anyway, that was really interesting. Just like all the things we talked about today made me think back to all these things and how embarrassed I was. And, you know, what if a young girl wanting to experience could feel comfortable enough nowadays? Yeah.

to say like, hey, like I'm thinking of doing this with so-and-so and being able to ask questions and all those things. I never felt comfortable. I have a friend who has a 15-year-old daughter and that's exactly the dynamic that she set up. So,

I love listening to her tell the stories of just like, so very early on age appropriate conversations left the door open. Often these conversations would take place in the car. I think kids somehow naturally feel it's like you're not staring at each other. You're staring forward. And a lot of parents will say kids will start to open up about all kinds of things in the car.

So her daughter would just start saying like, you know, I'm thinking, I'm thinking about having sex. And so of course, as a parent inside, no matter what, I think it's natural to be like, Oh, like you're worried for them. Of course. Pregnancy has got to be at the heart of pregnant, pregnant, pregnant. That's gotta be, I don't, I don't even know if it's the sexuality or I'm doing a BJ or I'm going to go, we're going to have oral sex. I,

I don't think it's the action itself. I think it's the end game of if you get pregnant at 15, then what are we going to do? Exactly. What are we going to tell believers? You're going to ruin your life. Well, let me tell you, this is, this is so, so instead this mother, this friend of mine, she just very calmly was like, okay, before you go down that road, can we get you fitted for an IUD? Can we, you know, our,

Like, and there was a real open conversation. Are you ready for that? It's going to be uncomfortable, but if you're not ready for that, then maybe we need to unpack. Maybe you're not also ready for sex if you're not ready for the IUD. So it was this wonderful conversation. And in the end,

Her daughter felt comfortable enough to say, like, you know, I've had this experience and it was wonderful. And so, like, again, this is how parents do set the tone. There's all this fear around there about sex ed in the classrooms and whatever. And I think that parents need to remember that they are the first and best resource for setting whatever sort of, like, framework they want to. And if they keep it so that it's actually not filled with fear and shame and, like, oh, my God, this.

kids will continue to open up and come to you. You know those videos they would make you watch in school about drugs? That's how sex ed made me feel because they showed videos that had that same tone as like, don't do drugs. And it's like, you don't have to prevent people. You just have to educate people is sort of the way around that. I was just going to say as a side note, you were asking earlier about conversations that I've had with my son. So one of the things that we found out from doing the social is that kids as young as like nine or 10

there's a good chance that they've come across porn. This is terrifying to me. And so in particular, I said to Jaya recently, I was like, you know, we got to talk. If you're on YouTube and you're going around, you may come across some stuff. And I said, and I did talk, I said that it might be stuff related to sexuality. And this is why it concerns me. And I said, I want you to come and talk to me afterwards, but what,

sex is like often on the internet is nothing like it is in real life and I and I gave him this analogy I said if you want to learn how to drive you wouldn't want to see like a car going down the street and banging into buildings and blowing up and right like that's not that's not the way that is or I asked him I was like is that the way that driving looks like to you and he's like no not at all I was like that's kind of like what sex is like on the internet compared to what it is in real life and

And this was a good kind of way for him to think because, you know, the last thing I want, that's the bigger fear for me is that he's going to stumble across the stuff that's incredibly performative or alarming or even like just gross out. And that's going to formulate, as I think it has for many people, his idea, his expectations about sex. And so I think as parents, it is our responsibility to be like, okay,

I want you to come and talk to me if you see this stuff. Great analogy. Because you want to feel the wheel and how it steers and all the things that you cannot feel through a video watching it. But I think the majority of parents, the majority of them, it's just silence. That's what it was for me. It's an absolute mute button. And, you know, when kids don't feel comfortable enough to come to a parent to ask them, that's the last person they want to go to. So I can't imagine. I mean, you're...

in a league of your own with that to, to be able to be open with Jaya. Cause it's, it's a game changer in how they feel about themselves and,

and their self-worth because there's so much worth based around our sexuality and how we feel normal or are we attractive to other people or why doesn't anyone want me? Sexuality is at the heart of so many things. And yet it's something in our culture that is absolutely put on a shelf. I, I certainly couldn't have gone to my mom and dad to ask about stuff like that. I learned really stupid things from my older brother. I remember being 12 years old and him telling me about how, you know,

you know, about sex intercourse. And I, the way he said it to me, it was like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. He's stupid idiot. And I'll, I'll just, I just remember that moment of like, I can't be possible because I just, I felt duped. I felt like, why, why didn't anyone tell me? Why don't I know any of this stuff? But, uh, I, I remember even my mom telling me about my period. I made my own maxi pads out of toilet paper for a year.

I was 17 when I got my period. I was quite late in the game. And I remember I was skiing and I got it and I wasn't afraid of it. I'm like, oh, it's my period because all my girlfriends had it. And I talked to my cousin Karen about it and blah, blah, blah. But anyway, when I finally talked to my mom, she was so uncomfortable. She showed me this drawer that she had in her bedroom where there was like pads and this is what you can use. She just

I don't think anyone spoke to her. I think she was on her own in a logging camp in, you know, 1948 with her mom that didn't say anything. And they used little pieces of cloth. They were, they were up North. It was so long ago. It was 80 fricking years ago. But I, I just, I felt for my mom. Yeah.

I didn't, I just felt for her that I had to put her through that, which is why I made my own maxi pads for a year. And then my dad's like, where the hell's all the goddamn toilet paper going in this house? But you know, like even coming out of all these conversations, right. You can see how, like, even though like I grew up with that same shame and fear that my mom did, you know, this generation is going to pass on a new conversation. Right. So it's very interesting to see how it's all. I hope so. Well,

Well, maybe we should just leave it there. Well, I kind of want to hear about the new season of The Social quickly from Cynthia before we wrap up here. Yeah. You're a tan. You know what? Like I said at the beginning, I was pregnant when I did the audition for The Social and I really had no idea. I thought I wasn't even going to get

considered because of the timing of the show and that I'd have a new baby. And that's kind of what happened is that, you know, I, the beginning of the, of the show, I had these leaky breasts. I was breastfeeding. I was pumping at my desk. I was sleep deprived. I couldn't, sometimes I couldn't even string a sentence together is my memory of it.

And yet now I flash forward and it's like, my son is nine. He's gonna be turning 10 this year. And the show has only just, I think, grown and evolved. And it's just been interesting to parallel our personal lives and how much we've grown.

with the show itself. And, you know, you early on, I'll never forget. I heard this story. Jan was shown the initial photo of our publicity photos. And she was like, she said to Bruce Allen, her manager, because he was like, you know, they want you on this show. And she was like, I'm not going on that show. Because it was like a picture of four women or like what? Well, they were in skin tight dresses. This was the thing at the time. They all have these beautiful bodies and they were all different. It wasn't like,

There was every body shape and giant hair, so much makeup. And I just thought, I don't think they'd even like me, these girls. And I have to give it to Lainey Louie, who went to Bruce. And, like, Lainey, of all people, she's just like, we really want to have Jan on the show. And I had a great time. I haven't done it so much in the last few years, but I would go on and do whole weeks with the social. Yeah.

And we had so much fun. And I got such a dear friend out of it, which is great. That's how you guys met, was on the social? Yeah, we never met before then. And there was a few times because Melissa became pregnant very early on in the season. I ended up hosting for a while and Jan was on a lot during that time. And we just started, I don't even know how, like we just went out afterwards once. Well, you asked, you said, would you like to go and have a drink after the show? And I think it was early days and I think I still did occasionally have a drink back then. And I haven't drank for seven years.

But we would go out and I would, I would, I remember being mindful, like, don't get drunk in front of Cynthia Loyce, for God's sake. And we always had candid conversations. And then we met, we took our first trip and we went to Vegas. We just got away for a weekend. Oh my God, we just never stopped talking. It was one of those friendships where, you know, we just never stopped talking. And she was some, you're someone you can get lost with.

and not even care. I'd be like, I'm sorry, I don't know where the wax museum is. I'm going the wrong way. She's like, I don't give a shit. Let's go have a beer. And I just thought, oh my God, that is so refreshing. I'll tell you what, any friendship, travel with them. Because if it goes fucking sideways, you know this person is not the right person for you. Ease and travel is so, we just kill ourselves laughing. We have so much fun. We've been to Palm Springs. We've been

you know, I think to New York a couple times. Yep. Vegas, I think we've been there three times now. My God, I'll never forget you at the J-Lo concert. J-Lo basically has sex with a couch at one point in her show in Vegas.

And I'm like, I don't even want to look over. I don't even want to look at her face right now. I so badly want to know what she's going to think of J-Lo humping this couch. I was so uncomfortable that I wanted to leave the theater. And I love J-Lo, don't get me wrong. I just didn't understand. There was no singing. It was just her humping a couch. And I was trying to picture me doing that during the sunset.

I would prefer to see you do it. I remember you looked over at me and I think this was my face the whole time, just

Like I was just sort of taking it in with this curious, I couldn't really get in. I didn't know what I was supposed to feel. Am I supposed to feel horny for you? Because I don't. Am I supposed to feel like, how am I supposed to clap? I just felt like it seemed a little. And we unpacked that afterwards. We went out for snacks to Bobby Flay's fricking restaurant or something where, you know, a snack and a drink was, that'll be 110 US dollars. Yeah.

But we, I just, I loved your take on it. I can't remember exactly what you said, but you just nailed it. You're like, she wants everybody in the audience, male, woman, whoever, to desire her and to want her. And it was so interesting that you said it that way. And I thought only Cynthia Lois could come up with that. But it was exactly what it is. It's the power of sensuality, of erotica, and of desire, of

taking a lasso and getting everyone's desire. I forget how you explained it to me, but I was just looking at Cynthia going, I can't even believe how she's unpacking this. I don't know. I don't even know. Yeah, you were just talking about the power of desire and that she, that's what she...

That's her brand. That's her brand, and that's what she helps. Is Hustlers on Netflix now? Oh, it might be. Good question. I don't know if the show is a documentary about her life, isn't it? Or is it about the making of Vegas? Hustlers, the movie, though. Her actual film, I think, might be. Anyway, if there's extra downloads this weekend, we know it's the Jen Arden listeners. That's right. But anyway, we've had a lot of fun, but that's something really cool that came out of that show, and I learned a lot.

And for me to have that kind of experience in television, I have to just chime in on the 10th year. I can believe that it's the 10th year because these are women that stand up, put their shoulders back, have taken so much vitriol on social media. You know, and we should probably just talk a little bit quickly about the hockey gate thing. Anyone who's a fan of the social, anyone that followed mainstream media knows that there was remarks made about hockey, which we all know now, three years later, have all

all become true, have all become factual. The sexual assaults that take place in the industry itself, in junior hockey, the claims that so many dozens, if not hundreds of women have made against hockey players and inappropriate behavior and assaults and all that stuff. And our battery's going to run out, which isn't perfect. But these guys faced

some really horrific stuff just over comments about hockey in Canada, which is like the untouchable golden egg in the sky. Not anymore. Thank goodness. That was a really tough time. I mean, yeah, it was one of the hardest things we've ever gone through as a team. And I mean, I guess they say. Jessica had to take time off. Yeah. Can you back it up for someone who doesn't know what happened? Can you...

So, I mean, basically, to just give you the short version is that obviously Canadian legend Don Cherry, he had made some comments around what he perceived as a lack of people wearing copies and that it really bothered him. But he in particular was talking about or implying that it was people who were perhaps

visible minorities, immigrants, people who are coming to this country, talked about this. You come to this country, the land of milk and honey, and you know, you don't show support for our veterans. Something to that effect. It inflamed. He said this on, um, on, on his show and it inflamed a lot of people. People picked up on the low key racist comment that it was. And so we talked about on our show initially about should he get fired was the first conversation that we had. And it was funny because both myself and my co-host Jess Allen had said at that time,

No, I don't think he should be fired. I think we were both saying the same thing of like he's been, Don Cherry's going to Don Cherry. Like this is, why now would we fire him? He's always been kind of spouting similar rhetoric. And indeed though, his Rogers decided to fire him. And so the next day afterwards, we talked about sort of what he represented to his fans. And my co-host Jess Allen, I'm

I remember sitting there beside her as she was making these comments and she was a bit heated and fired up, but she was basically just saying from her, again, our show is an opinion based show. From her point of view, when she was going up, Don Cherry represented a kind of aspect of hockey culture. And, you know, I'm paraphrasing what she was saying. It sort of was, you know, particularly white, affluent, sort of, you know,

young men and they weren't particularly kind necessarily. A lot of times there was, I think she mentioned homophobia. These were her opinions based on her experience of the kind of culture surrounded by. And,

These comments got distorted, picked up, twisted, not only on social media, but also even by some of our peers and colleagues in the television and radio world. And it was jacked up. And I've never seen something like it from our perspective since then. And I hope I never do again, because what happened is we ended up getting death threats

We had police had to come in. It took on a life of its own. And it was so, it was so in a way looking back, it's just like, well, you kind of proved something like there was some point be like the way in which it inflamed. She was saying it was like, this is like our religion to some people. And that's exactly what it proved to be that she dared make blasphemous comments towards this institution to insinuate that it wasn't necessarily this, you know,

deity that people seem to make it from her experience again on an opinion based show. So looking back, I mean, it was, it was awful.

And blessed, though, that some stuff has come out. And, you know, now, again, there were always real big supporters of her and of our show. But for a while that we weren't sure we were going to be able to carry on. So, yeah, I guess coming into your 10th season, it's like, no, like this show is worthy to have these conversations and it needs to be part of the landscape. Well, they're important conversations and talk about being ahead of the curve. Talk about being ahead of a conversation that the nation has had to have in the last year.

about hockey a lot of people have had to step down and and yeah it's there's there's things that happen in in every corner of every industry whether it's dentistry or freaking teachers or whatever and the whole point no one was saying the whole thing is like this not at all it wasn't it was a specific experience but i think the thing is is that what you what it's taught us is

again, we're four or five women. We're a female driven show and having women who express their stories and their opinions about things, it is still really, really important and really crucial. And, you know, what I'm most proud of when I look back at the show is that we still are able to, I think, express difficult positions, talk about hard topics,

We've always been compared to the view in the States. And I think what really separates us is the fact that there are certain discussions that we've decided are no longer up for debate. For example, the abortion discussion. Like it's like we've had colleagues on the show have shared their stories of having abortions. And I'm so grateful that we don't have then this debate

you know, requisite position, which a lot of American shows do. They need to have this right wing position of just being like, well, wait a minute. And it's just like, no, this is something that is about women's rights. It's about feminism. And I think that's the undercurrent of our show is that we're a feminist show. We're going to use our voices. Do you like some of the things we say? That's okay.

we debate with each other. Some days we don't, when we always love each other, but some days we don't like each other or necessarily, you know, but I think that it shows the world that you can have debates. You can have women who have strong,

and you can have women who've had challenging experiences and we share a lot of that and we continue to. So it puts us at risk, but it's a risk. Listen, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about, you know, once again, we'll circle back around to solidarity. I learned a lot about you can have differences of opinions, but these women especially have each other and they hold each other in utmost respect as colleagues, you know, as educated people.

people that respect each other. I don't agree with that, but I, I got you. I'm going to support you. There's never anyone that lefts that leaves a building. Like I'm standing by myself. And I learned a lot about that. I have so much respect for them. It's been such a great learning experience for me on a personal level. I just, it's made me a better person. I think about how I make my way through the world because of the

of Melissa and Lainey and Jessica and Cynthia, you know, and Tracy and, you know, Marcy, so many, so many women who have been given a platform on the show. I just, it's,

I think it's something that people want to watch and they will watch for another 10 years if you guys want to hang in there with it. Oh my God, could you imagine? Congratulations on season 10. Thank you. But yeah, it's just, it's a joy to watch them. And even all the behind the scenes team on the show that worked tirelessly. Like sometimes I would laugh my ass off about some of the topics we talked about off the top of the show. But they're all, they're all...

so different and so diverse. It may not be by thing that we're talking about, but you know, there's someone in Churchill, Manitoba, that's like, I'm glad they talked about a thing that can suppress farts. You know,

I didn't say. And plus, it comes in nine different colors. I'm going to order one. Anyway, special guest Cynthia Loyst, Sarah Burke, Adam Karch. This has been a little bonus round for you. Cynthia, I hope you'll come back and do the show again. And once again, the audio is a little funky because we're on one computer. We don't have a microphone in front of us, but we wanted to make sure that we made this happen. Thanks to all our listeners. You can go click subscribe. We're on iHeartRadio, Spotify, iTunes.

iTunes, all the places that you get your podcasts. And Cynthia's going to have some neat stuff coming up. So keep your eye on her and her social media. Lots of cool things happening in her corner. And hopefully she's working on another book. You know, her last one, her pleasure book for your pleasures. Find your pleasure. Find your pleasure. Sorry. Mind your pleasure. I knew that. I own many copies and have talked about this book.

Find your pleasure. Go grab yourself a copy if you're looking for some wonderful ideas, some inspiration, some insight. It's just something you can wrap yourself up with, a cup of tea, glass of champagne, whatever you want to do. Are you going to write another book? I don't know. Yeah, I think so. Okay, good. Thank you. All right. Anyhow, we'll talk to you soon. Thank you, guys. We'll see you next week. Too little. Too little.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.