Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Jen Arden, Jen Arden, Jen Arden podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, Jen Arden here, along with Caitlin Green, our engineer, Adam Karsh. They are respectively in Toronto. I have a huge announcement today. So huge. We're taking a vacation and we're going to be starting season two in September. But in the meantime...
The month of August, you guys, our faithful listeners, are going to be listening to four really amazing episodes that Caitlin has kind of curated. You know, she had these, you had really specific ideas of, you know, who to highlight. We had a lot of guests, didn't we, Caitlin? Yeah.
I know. I forget about this because the pandemic sort of threw guest booking all over the place and people stopped having stuff to promote. And so we still managed to pull together some really amazing people. But a lot of these conversations...
Like I had forgotten about some of the amazing stories that get shared, especially between, I mean, I'm really partial to the conversations you have with so many fellow musicians. There's a really great chunk of your chat with Anne Murray. My favorite ever story told on the podcast between you and Rick Mercer that involves a hockey net and we'll leave it at that.
And just like Sarah McLachlan talking about Lilith Fair, you know, the impact that Lilith Fair had on music and on women in music. And then, you know, we get to hear from Jonathan Torrens. We get to hear just so many people that we've spoken to. And I just love your chats with them so much. So it's great and funny too to hear some of these conversations took place before the pandemic. Some of the conversations took place before.
right at the height of lockdown. And so it's like the question becomes, where is everyone? Are you able to work right now? What's this like? So it's a fun little time capsule. I really enjoyed listening to these episodes a lot. I can't wait to listen because as you know, people are always asking me, do you listen to the podcast? I said, absolutely. A, I'm on a giant learning curve.
There were some episodes where I wanted to punch myself in the temple and I still do because I'm interrupting. I'm missing the point. I'm like, okay, Jan, you started with something you were going to say and now you're talking about rollerblading. Like, where are you? So, you know, it's a learning curve and I think it's important to listen.
And I enjoy the conversations. It's funny. We can be here in real time listening to these amazing guests. And then when I'm walking down the road with a dog, I'm like, I don't remember him saying that. So I'm kind of feeling like I should book a room at the long-term memory care center because they are as new to me as, you know, as everybody else. Anyway, yeah. So four special episodes. We always make jokes about, you know, 140 some odd episodes of season one.
So season two, we're going to be all polished up and we're all really looking forward to hitting the fall with just like 2.0, the Jan Arden podcast 2.0. So please watch for that. Right out of the gate, I want to give you Susan Dunn part two. Those of you who were with us last week,
realized or had a chance to listen to my story about a fan of mine, Susan Dunn, longtime follower, huge supporter of mine for probably 25 years. Anyway, where we left off is on Friday, July the 22nd,
Susan Dunn was accepted into a program for end-of-life 59-year-old woman who just really opted out of kind of drowning on dry land. And I have a great deal of respect for people that are able to control their end, to be the captain of their fate. And that's what Susan chose to do. But here's the rest of the story. So I spoke to that.
Susan and I texted back and forth quite a bit during the last 10 days of her life. I mentioned that I sent Susan my book. She was the first person to read my yet unpublished book that wasn't even finished yet. Closer to the day, last Friday, Susan on Wednesday had just said, do you mind if I give you a quick call on the day of the procedure? And that's what she called it, the procedure.
She goes, I'm going into the hospital for a procedure. That's how I'm thinking about it. She was very cavalier, very intrepid. I cannot stress that enough. And I said, oh my gosh, of course, please, you know, call me. I said, I'm going to be in the Toronto airport. I have a flight to catch home because I had a corporate job last week in Toronto very quick. So she phoned me at about 20 to 10. I didn't even think about it.
When all this was unfolding and she just she just said, how was your podcast? And I said, we talked all about you. And I should preface all this by saying, you know, we taped the podcast the day before she passed away. But of course, in the podcast, I'm talking like it's Saturday.
Anyway, I'm rambling now. So I told her about the podcast. I told her we spoke about it. I said it's going to be so inspiring. And she was like, if I can get anyone interested in the MAID program or anybody interested in organ donation. And a lot of times people didn't make the correlation between end-of-life assistance and being able to donate organs. And I think that was a very important part of the story.
She didn't know either. She's like, I don't think I'm going to qualify. But she did qualify for a great deal. Right now there's people walking around with Susan Dunn's kidneys that are off dialysis. It really is special. And I loved how she said she was going to be staying on the earth in some way.
I think it's very, very special and such an altruistic thing to do because not everyone opts in and not everyone realizes how easy it is to opt in, but that you do need to do that. This isn't, as you said last week, Jan, this isn't a situation where you opt out. You have to opt in. So if this is something you're interested in, make sure to do it for Susan. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, she really taught me so many lessons in a very short period of time. Anyway, so she called me at about 20 to 10. I told her all the stuff that was going on. And she said, tell me about your gig. Tell me, because she was getting the procedure done. I could hear the doctors in the room. Her sister and her nephew were in the room.
And I was kind of getting a little bit nervous. She just said, you know, thank you for everything. And I thought that's what this was going to be, like thanks for arranging the visit with the goats and chatting with me and letting me read your book. Thank you, goodbye. I've got to go now. And she said, can you stay on the phone with me and tell me about your mom? I said, of course, of course I can. They're lining up to board the plane. I just sat there with my mask on and I'm telling her about mom.
talking about growing up in Gordondale. Anyways, I'm just telling these little snippets of stories about my mom. And then she would ask me to tell her about something else. And I can't actually remember what she asked me. She said, if you can just keep talking to me. And I said, of course, Susan, I'm right here. Thank you. Thank you. I heard the doctor say to her, Susan Dunn, I have to ask you verbally and I need a verbal response from you. Are you ready to proceed with assistance to end your life?
She said, 100% yes. And I'm on the phone. I'm in a crowded, packed gate. She said, keep talking to me, Jan. Do you mind? Do you mind? I said, no. No, not at all. I said, you would do it for me. I would do it for you. And then the doctor's saying, I'm going to start the procedure now. And I'm on the phone. I'm thinking, what is happening? And I'm talking to her. I'm telling her about mom. I'm telling her about
the gig I'm telling her about what my plans are for the summer I'm telling her about saw it I don't know I was just talking and then she started she goes she started talking to me he said I'm starting the procedure now I could hear her sister crying and her nephew saying something and she's like keep talking and um I just she started getting woozy she said I'm getting woozy
She said, I love you. She was saying, I love you to her sister. I love you to her nephew. I love you guys. Tell the kids I love them. It's just nothing but love. No fear. There was no regret. No, what have I done? It was so peaceful. She said, I love you, Jan. I've never met you, but I love you. I wish we could be friends. I said, we are friends, Susan. And then the last thing she said, I just wish I could have met Nigel. And Nigel, as some of you guys know, is my longtime dear heart friend from...
England. And when I phoned him and told him this story, he laughed, cried. He burst into tears and he started laughing. He goes, what the bloody hell would you bloody mention me for? I said, Nigel, she's followed you and I for 25 years. She's followed us. That was the last thing she said. I heard the machine line go like it does on TV, the flat line sound. I stayed on the phone. They were boarding the plane. I would have gladly missed my plane. I didn't know what to do.
I didn't want to hang up. And then her sister picked up the phone and just thanked me profusely. She said, Susan has had the best 10 days. And I just thought, what an extraordinary thing to connect with someone you don't know. It kind of makes the internet, I'll forgive the internet for every hideous, horrible thing it does to each other. And I will forever be grateful to the thin golden thread that
that attached from my heart to North Bay, Ontario, to Susan Dunn's keyboard that allowed me to share in a piece of her life that will change me forever. So that's part two of the Susan Dunn story. And she passed away. And then they took her to take her kidneys and her eyes and her muscle tissue. And she was so proud of that, you guys. I want you to know Susan Dunn
died a hero. She left her kids with something to be so proud of. And she will certainly never be forgotten by me and thousands of you listening, I'm sure.
That's the great thing about sharing her story, right? And of continuing to talk about loved ones who've passed away and saying their name and telling, like, that's how you keep them kind of alive in your heart. So it's really been special, I think, for all of us to be able to share her tale and her connection with you. Such an unexpected connection through social media now with everyone who listens to the podcast. It's just, it's kind of magical when usually Twitter is an absolute dumpster. Yeah.
Listen, you guys are so, it's so lovely to have you along on this journey. This is our, our, our, our farewell show for the, for the month of August, but there's lots to look forward to. Don't go away. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast. I'll be right back with Caitlin green and Adam Karsh.
We are so excited to welcome another new sponsor, our friends at Cove Soda. Have I pestered Cove enough to come and join us here at the Jan Arden podcast? I love them so much. They are Canadian, first of all. They are a natural, certified organic, zero sugar soda, which includes, get this, one big
probiotics. I kind of sounded like Dr. Evil there, didn't I? But seriously, you can get 80% of your daily vitamin C in just one can. Cove Soda is on a mission to promote gut health for all, and you still get to have a delicious treat while
while putting a gut-friendly, guilt-free drink in your body. Cove Soda is available in 12 delicious flavors all over North America. So for our American friends, you can find it. They've got this fruity lineup that's fantastic. I drink those all the time. They've got the classic lineup. If you like a
A cola or a cream soda, root beer, yes indeedy. And they've got their limited edition summer flavor, which will take you right back to the second grade. You gotta try the ice pop one. Head to janardenpod.com to find out where the closest place to you is where you can go and buy Cove. Go right now. Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast. We're gonna talk about friendships.
How many friends do you have? Do you have way less friends than you did when you were in your 20s? I know that I do. I knew that every activity back then, anything I did in my 20s was done with 48 people. And now it's like one or two, maybe four top six for a dinner party. There is a case being made for fewer friends. And I think...
The pandemic really shifted our idea of friendships. Yeah. And I think it also shifted our ability to do things with people the way that we previously had.
And so maybe you had friends who primarily you saw at work and now you're working from home. And maybe you had friends who you went to concerts with or traveled with, didn't live in the same city as you. So you would go on vacations together. People who you went to bars or parties with and that's not happening anymore. So I always view friends, you have the tried, tested and true friends no matter what, but you oftentimes have different friends for different things.
And that stuff really changed. Really, really changed. That's what I've noticed as well, Jan, to your point about, you know, the group shrinking. It's not so much that it does shrink. Obviously, that is ultimately the end result. Oh my gosh, guys, let's rent a bus and go to the clubbing. See, that doesn't happen anymore. And I don't want to chalk certain friendships up to, you know, drinking buddies or because it sounds dismissive or like they weren't important. And it was fun.
It was fun, but you just, I'm much more tired. I can't do it. Yeah, I can't. I mean, you're sober. I am. I'm sober adjacent, I would say. And it just, you get tired and things change as you age. And also people have busier and busier jobs and family members needing more exercise.
assistance and you have children and you just don't have as much time because in my 20s, my friends or my family, I spent all, I spent every moment with my friends for years and years and years of my life. And I knew that there was a standing social event happening probably Thursday to Sunday every week if you so chose to join. And now that's not sustainable.
So it's sad in some ways, but I actually like the closest friends that I've melted everything down to. I really enjoy seeing them so much and I give a lot of long leash to everybody else so that if somebody wants to go from your life for a little bit and then come back, that's fine. Well, that's totally fine. I learned so much about my friendships recently.
During my career, and I think there's some funny things happen when you become a public person and experience a little bit of fame. I had lots of relatives that I had no idea existed kind of come out of the woodworks. But the true friends that I have, and I'm going to say that I have like six friends.
I'll tell you right now at 60 years old with everything I've done every award I've won every cool concert or gig or Film I've been in or acting everything I've done my friendships are my greatest accomplishment And they are my greatest success story because I look at these people. I think my god. I must be doing something right
to have people that have been so steadfast, stayed with me through all my stupid drinking. Like I know I worried my friends and sometimes they'd say things and sometimes they knew me well enough to say, you can't talk to her. It's just going to push her away. Like,
It's amazing in the different ways that each of these particular people chose to support me, and it was very different. But during the pandemic, I had two friends, four friends eventually that I saw. My one friend's husband, my dear friend Teresa, we've known each other since we were 11 or 12. He was going through COVID.
treatments and heart stuff. And so none of us even went anywhere near them because we didn't want to kill them. Yeah. But to have these standing dinner movie dates twice a week, they'd come here, I'd go there and it was a lifesaver because I live alone. But yeah, my greatest successes. And I don't, I know thousands of people as both you guys do thousands of people, but really when it comes down to it, like you said, there's this standing thing.
understanding, understanding. There's this whole idea that if you need me, I'll be there.
If you need me, I'll be there. And you know I would hop on a plane for either of you guys. You would. If you phoned me and said, can you be there tomorrow? I would effing, I would be there. I'd be standing on your doorstep. I would bend over backwards for you, Jan. You know that. I know. And I know that, Adam. I know that. And that's cool to have.
But on the other side of this, and I was going to say this to you guys, amid everything that was going on, there was a real loneliness epidemic. And they talked about a loneliness epidemic and people that were suddenly working from home, being stuck at home, trying to make those reconnections. So thoughts on that?
Yeah, I think, you know, it did highlight the importance of social circles and socialization with regards to our mental health. Doctors have long said that it contributes to offsetting memory loss. It contributes to offsetting aging. It certainly increases your overall happiness and then your health and well-being physically follow soon after. So that was the part of this extended lockdown that to me always felt like
very unrealistic and very unmanageable and very unhealthy because we're social creatures. That's how we've evolved. And that's how humans have done so well as we have. I mean, it might come at a great cost to the earth, but that's a topic for another day. But that's really how we've advanced is from communicating with each other. And we're meant to be in groups. It's just, it's the way that we are.
So it was a very unnatural state to shove everyone into. And it was hard for some people to come out of that. I mean, I had friends who admittedly would get together for dinners and they'd say, my social skills are rusty. My conversation skills are rusty. I don't know what to talk about other than the pandemic. And that's not a fun topic for people.
So as much as there is a certain amount of risk now that comes along with seeing other people as we deal with kind of wave after wave, I do think that the benefit is really still there for your health and your well-being. And you need to stay connected. And your friends are the family that you choose.
And those special friendships, those longstanding friendships, I just saw a friend of mine. She was my best friend in high school and she moved to Florida. And I just saw her for the first time in years. We met up in a park. She was visiting family in Toronto. She was here with her three kids who I hadn't had a chance to spend really any time with. And we both just commented on how it was like you haven't missed a beat. It was as if you were just... I love that.
back in high school, that easy friendship. And I have that. I'm fortunate to have that with so many great friends from high school. And it's special. You don't want to lose that. I know it takes work and it is work to stay in touch with people and to have relationships with them, but it's really worth it. And I have another friend who's been, she's, you know, been battling, it's
very advanced stage four cancer. And she's my age, you know, has a young mother. And she had her first opportunity to come visit all of us in Toronto from Australia in years. And, you know, pandemic stuff was not happening for her because of her health issues. And again, it's as if nobody misses a beat. And that social group, it takes a lot of work to stay in touch, but it's really worth it as you age. Time is a weird concept. It's all of us got a real dose of how time morphs
Some days felt so long and then it felt like the two years were just seconds, a handful of seconds. And then we were out of it. The only thing I can ever compare this particular experience of the pandemic to is 9-11. And you were talking about, Caitlin, the conversations that we all had during the pandemic that were all about the pandemic. Like we just couldn't escape it. The mask this and the vaccine that. Do you think that's going to happen? And can you guys find flour? And it was 9-11 for months.
There was nothing. You could not have a normal conversation because it felt disingenuous. It felt like you were trying to sweep this massive heaviness under a rug to not speak to lost lives, disrupted lives. That was the only other time in my life. And I'm thinking, my goodness, my life hasn't been that long. But there's a lot of crap that's gone down since we've been on the planet. Yeah. And you were young. Yeah.
I was, yeah, I remember that. I was in high school when that happened. And it's funny, those things do take over your conversation. But you have to have, I mean, I think that we all notice too, when you realize that the pandemic is going on sort of in perpetuity, you do have to try to limit some of that content in your conversations or you become, it's not, it's just stressful. And since nobody's a doctor, I found that there, we ran...
A lot of people became doctors on Facebook. You know, they did. And as much as I really value their opinions, I don't want to hear them anymore. And so I think that kept happening as well. But you're right. For those initial days, why would we be talking about anything else? And it had completely changed the way we lived our lives. So I just think on the other side, not the other side of it, as if to indicate that it's over, but on the other side of the severe lockdowns that vaccines have allowed us to experience more
man, it really highlighted how good it is to see your friends and how helpful it is in your life. My husband's parents are retired. And I would say that one of the things I see them do is really enjoy a great social life. And I always think that as I retire, I hope to retain that social circle because it keeps you young. You will. Jan Arden Podcast, that's what you're listening to. Don't go away. We'll be right back.
Hey ho, hello. Welcome back, Jan Arden Podcast. Caitlin and I have been talking about friendships and is it
as you get older, a wise idea to kind of pare down. Well, I think it just happens naturally. You have less time. I mean, let's face it. What are we doing in our 20s? We're learning how to be people. And I think that's why when you're learning how to socialize, how to communicate, how to get a mate, how to attract someone to you, how to... It's a whole biological, hormonal
three ring circus in your twenties. There's a lot to unpack, but then as you become a person and you become more streamlined in what you like and what you don't like and what you need in your life, um, I'm completely, when I was your guys's age to where I am now, I feel completely different once again of how I felt in my late thirties and forties. Um, there's a psychologist and I didn't know this existed and a friendship expert, um,
Oh, Marissa Franco. And she's got an upcoming book called platonic, how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. Now I'm not sure what it's going to be about, but some of the interesting things that they said in her press package was people who regularly interacted. And this, this could be either of you. This could be you, Adam. This could be you, Caitlin. It was definitely me. People who regularly interacted with 10 or more friends in midlife and
have higher levels of psychological well-being than those who had fewer than 10. This is according to a 2012 study. We also know that maintaining friendships leads to positive life satisfaction. It minimizes stress and even continues, as to the point you made, Caitlin, to better physical health outcomes.
Yes, it does. They know this now. They know it contributes to insulating your brain from all kinds of stressors. And it can really, socialization plays a role in memory loss.
So I think it's really important to focus on it. And when you feel tired and worn out because it happens all the time and you're like, I'm not going to bother putting in the effort to see friends or I'm not going to go the extra mile kind of thing. Like really rethink that. And that's something that happens too. I think a lot of the friendships that I lost just it felt as though they weren't putting in equal measure efforts.
And so I was doing a lot of the heavy lifting and I felt like this isn't sustainable for me on a lifelong basis. I want to have lifelong friendships. And the best way to ensure that is somebody who's going to reach out and ask you how you're doing and make the effort and make plans and book that cottage or book a vacation with you and create that time to connect. And the people who aren't going to do that and don't prioritize friendships to the same extent that I do, I don't see us lasting. Gotta tell you, no hard feelings, but just we're not any
This is going to blow your mind. There's another psychologist. Her name is Robin Dunbar, and she published a study that say humans. She was talking about the limit on how many deep relationships you're able to sustain physically.
And she claims, oh my God, this would, I would just stay in bed, never get up again. She claims that humans can cognitively handle up to 150 meaning social relationships, which includes family and friends. Not all 150 contacts are obviously going to be created equally. But like I said, I know thousands of people in the, in the nature of our work in media that,
It's amazing. All you have to do sometimes is not that I go on Facebook a lot, but I thought that I really had a low friend count because I don't I don't accept any. If you're asking me to be your friend on Facebook, I never look at it. I never accept anybody. So don't think it's personal to you. But I have like 600 people on my personal page.
And one day I thought, I'm going to get rid of these. I'm going to go in here and clear these out. I felt too terrible. I'm like, oh no, I know them from there. I know that from this. So I couldn't, when I was going through these people to try and figure out how in the F am I connected to these people, it was too big of a thing for me to unfollow because I thought I am really going to hurt feelings here. So I just left it. I didn't get rid of one person. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean...
It is hard. And I've realized too that I have friends who are very specific to Instagram, for example. And we DM each other a lot. We reply to each other's stories. And you follow a lot of what goes on in their life. And it really does help you stay connected. And then I have some friends who, for their own reasons, have decided not to use social media really at all. And I feel much more out of touch with them because of the frequency that you are on all of these apps now. Just checking whatever and especially for me for work. Yeah.
And it's made it so easy to stay in contact with people. And if you can learn to mute and block and disconnect from the parts of social media that are negative, there's a lot of socialization that goes on there. And I expect it'll probably only become more and more important as we get older. Because if my friends aren't on Instagram, I mean, I don't really, I don't talk to them as much. It's just the truth. Well, this Robin Dunbar goes on to say that
the sort of the definitive amount of friends to have is five. I don't know why this is making me laugh. What study in the world, like you just average out thousands of people and say, how many close friends do you have? But as I'm laughing at this statistic, I'm thinking I've got five or six dear, I mean, dear heart friends.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, anyway, so I hope you guys are finding this as interesting as me. Reaching a level of intimacy obviously requires time, correct? Like you said, you need to have a friend. You must be a friend. Um, this is the amount of time investment that you need to put into a friendship. According to Jeffrey Hall, it's around 200 hours.
200. Interesting. What is this? How? Oh, my God. I don't know why this is making me laugh. Well, it was like the 10,000 hours rule where they say, you know, if you're going to be an expert in anything, you have to have done it for 10,000 hours. That's really how long it takes. So that's a far cry. But I'm thinking, so 200 hours. Let's just ponder this for a second. So...
When you meet up, when you first meet somebody, it's, you know, through probably a group of people or a work setting or something random. But then after you meet with them, let's go for lunch or let's do a movie, would you average out that those meetings are like 90 minutes? I mean, how much time do you have? 90 minutes to two hours, for sure. But I'm just like, that's a lot of meetings. But I guess that's the level of...
a really deep friendship. That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Like Teresa and I have known each other since we were 12. We're both 60 and we're still getting to know each other. I feel like, I can't tell you how many times we've been together. And I've said, I did not know that. You've never told me that I've known you for 40 years. I didn't know you blankety blank blank. Yeah. Well,
Well, I mean, you guys are now friendship experts. You've hit that 10,000 hour mark. So that's the thing too, right? There's different levels. And that's why sometimes friends at work, when you stay at one job for a long time, become really important because you realize that you see them more than some of your family and actual friends. And they become a really important part of your social life. I think also that's why I love trips with friends because you book a cottage weekend and you go away together for four days. That's such a condensed period of time. So fun.
It's great. I mean, that's sort of how I would want to continue moving forward. I'm also an only child, you know, and my mom is in the city, but my dad is not. And my husband and I are both very social and his extended family doesn't live in Toronto. So our friends really are our family. And we have historically had a lot of time for them. And we've made a great amount of effort to try to stay connected with people because it just I love it.
So I miss my friends. If I go for two weeks without seeing people, I like start like I'm itching to make plans. I'm always looking to make plans. Yeah, I think something happens to our serotonin levels. Our biology, I think, is affected by interactions with people.
You know, it's our greatest asset. It's our greatest support system is people, other people. And I don't want to, you know, be telling our listeners that you certainly don't need to have 150 friends. I don't. I do not have 150 friends. I don't. I know them, but I don't even, I just don't.
But one thing I would recommend, and you're talking about traveling and doing a four-day weekend with friends. If you're going into a relationship, a new relationship, whether it's platonic, whether it's sexual, whatever it is, please do yourself the favor of booking a two- or three-night vacation somewhere. You will condense...
This thing that happens, you'll know if you get along with them. You'll know if stuff bugs you. You'll know if they're kind to waiters and waitresses and hospitality staff. You will find out so many little things that you don't need to wait six months to find out. Like the guy treats waiters like crap. I don't want anything to do with him.
Anyway, there's, we somehow started talking about friendships inspired, of course, by Susan Dunn. And, um, and what is a friendship and what, what makes, what, what, how, goodbye. This is the Jan Arden podcast. We will be right back.
Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast. Of course, as always on the break, Caitlin was making a good point. And when you have friends, you want to have like-minded friends who are on...
like the same level. I'm not saying the same interests, like you're going to have lots of different friends, but certainly in a significant relationships. And you were talking about Kyle, like you're really social and you guys love to travel. Imagine if Kyle was like, I don't, do we have to go with those guys? Can it just be you and me this weekend? We're always going with them. I had that.
for 10 years and it was hell. Would not work for me. Like you said, you're getting to know yourself and what your preferences are, but you need to have somebody who you're equally matched with. I think romantically when it comes to your social skills and your social circle and you want each other's friends to become your collective friends and
And, you know, my husband has a best friend who lives in Montreal who I am obsessed with. I want to spend so much time with him. And it just makes your life easier and more enjoyable. I could never be with someone again, and I have been in the past, who was not down to go out and didn't know how to make chat and didn't know how to connect with my friends and mostly didn't prioritize it because that's what it feels like.
it feels like they're not prioritizing you and what's important to you. So that wouldn't work out for me. And it's a red flag now, again, when I see in other friends, they're getting into these new relationships maybe. And the person that they're with doesn't really have a big social circle. And I know that my friend is quite social. I'm always like, I don't know how that's going to go. Like, I hope it works out, but it wouldn't for me. Let me ask you this.
you know, this is your friend that you're watching getting involved with somebody new to the group. Would, would you take them aside and go, I don't know, just, is it, is it too hard to say they don't seem to be on your same wavelength, Catherine? Like, I really think you might want to, you know, rethink that. Is he always like that? Or like, does that bother you? I don't know. Do we, do we just sit on our hands and not say anything? It's such a conflict. I do.
Yeah. I never say a thing. Not anymore. Not anymore. Okay. Just because unless I'm prompted and very specifically asked, and even then I'm quite careful with it because you can't pick who you have those romantic feelings for. So I always want to respect that part of it because I don't have that. So I'm like, I'm not in love with this person. So I'm going to look at this very differently.
But I do love my friends. So I'll offer as much as I'm prompted to and then mostly leave them to come to the conclusion that they always do on their own anyways. If I thought that this was, you know, some sort of bus that was coming for their happiness to hit them head on, I would probably speak up. But for the most part, I think it ends up becoming obvious in the end.
One thing I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt, if you are in old friendships, new friendships, whatever they may be, if you are in a room with one person or four people and any of those individuals steal from you, and by that I mean taking your energy, gobbling it up, ingesting it and not giving anything back, taking that last cookie off the plate and not offering up anything. If these people do not instore a sense of confidence and joy and support in you, and I mean...
absolutely without a shadow of a doubt, I will tell you, walk on. If people do not give you joy, don't wait till you're 60 years old, my age. If people are taking from you and not giving back, if you don't leave a situation having spent a four or five hour afternoon with somebody, you get in your car and you shut that door and you're like, what the? I feel like I need to go home and sleep.
You should be getting your car going, okay, bye. I'll talk to you next week. You should be feeling invigorated, a sense of joy. And people say, that's not realistic, Jan. Yes, it is. And if you're not getting that, walk on.
And it's fine to say, oh, shoot, I'm only having this realization now. Or, wow, I've hit my limit after 10 years. And to feel conflicted because you've obviously put a lot of time and energy into the relationship leading up until that point. But there's never a better time to get away from one of those. I think they're kind of like vibe vampires. They just suck it all away. And you feel it. You feel it immediately. And then your mind, you're going, how do I get out of this?
I'll just have one more cup of coffee. We'll do lunch. I can't. Well, do you want to come over after? You just know because the conversation is one-sided. It's stealing. My mom used to tell me that. Don't let people steal from you. It's okay to be a private person. And I'm not saying you don't let your friends lean into you. And I know everyone on here is smart enough to realize that.
you know what I'm talking about. You absolutely listen to your friend's problems. You absolutely are that shoulder to lean on. You know the difference between genuinely someone looking to be helped and
And looking for comfort in someone unloading and just monopolizing you and taking from you. That's the thing. It's the back and forth. Are they there for you? Do they only call you to complain? Do they only call you to, quote unquote, ask for advice and then just never take it?
And is it somebody who is unable to emotionally regulate themselves at all? Because that is a really draining prospect for a long-term friendship. And I just don't think it will work out. And most of the time, you want laughs. You want to have some laughs with people. So that's always been a gauge for me. Am I having laughs with this person? Do you feel silly? Are you comfortable? Can you engage with them talking about work? Is there something you're both getting from this?
And if you're just giving, giving, giving, I'm making all the plans. I'm listening to you complain about your life all the time. I don't know. I'm out. And friendship breakups are hard. I've had a few of them. And I've had a few friendships change, not necessarily a full breakup, but just kind of maybe say a demotion. And it's hard. And you have to work through it. You're getting a demotion.
Yeah. I'm over you. And that's fair too, right? Maybe there's somebody who was once like your BFF and now you're more on a level where you have the occasional lunch. Like that's cool. It can go back to where it was. It doesn't always stay there. Yeah. Cause you start protecting your assets. You start protecting what's valuable to you. And, and please don't be afraid to change that narrative in your life with people.
Don't feel like oh if I do this they're gonna be so mad at me who cares if they're mad at you and angry with you because they don't really care about you anyway and
And if anger is what they're giving you, I guess that's better than nothing. My mom used to say to me, well, I'll tell you how you figure out who your friends are. Just, you know, when you're moving, just ask people to come and help you move and just see who the hell shows up. But I'll tell you what, when we moved, Rich and Cheryl and Frida and Elle would show up for us and we lugged our crap around from place to place. And they, the four of them, and they were friends their whole life.
And she said, my brother never, no, they didn't show up. It's true. If you're moving, people are always like, oh, God, I'm so sorry. I'm not there that weekend. I'm away. I'm getting my hair cut. You know, trust your instincts. Trust that your gut when you're engaging in a friendship. And if after the third or fourth time, you don't feel like you're getting reciprocity, then move on.
And don't be hurt by it. Every old sock has an old shoe. There are people out there for you. Never lose faith of who those like-minded kindred souls are. You can be politically opposed. You don't have to agree on everything, but you know when someone has your heart and your back.
And that they're there to help you and that they're there. They're not fair weather friends. You have to make room for those new people. Yes. And yeah, it's meeting new people is one of the most exciting things you'll do in your life going forward. And as you get older, yes, it gets hard to make new friends, but boy, it's sure worth the risk. You've been listening to the Jan Arden podcast.
Susan Dunn, you've been gone for a week. I don't know where you are. I hope everything is good with you. And we're thinking about all your friends and family if they're listening to your friends and family in Texas, your friends and family and certainly in Ontario. I hope you guys stay well. We're going to miss you. We are going to sign off now. Caitlin and Adam and I will be back for season two. We've got lots of fun surprises coming up in September. And I mean lots.
Lots of fun surprises coming up for you in September. We'll talk to you soon. Enjoy the four special episodes we have coming up for you. Caitlin curated them. Adam cut them together. I did a brief little narration at the beginning of each one to kind of explain what we're going to be doing. So we look forward, as always, to hearing your comments. Look after yourselves. We love you. We'll see you soon. Toot-a-doot.
This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.