Juicy Crimes: Karen Read, Idaho, Lori Vallow with Annie Elise
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Real life podcast. Listen in, listen up. Juicy Scoop.

Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I have a real juicy show today. We're going to cover some juicy crimes and I love my guest.

But I know you want me to get into the Valley, what's going on. And I, because we did such a full show today, I'm going to cover the Valley and the inside scoop that I have about some of the players. Cause you know, I'm one of the Valley girls. I am going to do that on my Friday Patreon. So you go to HeatherMetal.net and you click on Patreon and you'll get that along with

all the most personal stuff about my life. So let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Today we're going to get into some of your juiciest crimes that you guys have been talking about, that I've been talking about. And I have an expert. Yes, because you tell me, you don't know what you're talking about, Heather, sometimes with these crimes. But I love them and that's why I love having someone who really is an expert and

And please welcome Annie Elise from your YouTube show. It's hard to say serialistly YouTube and podcast. Serial, serious, great show. I've been a guest on your show and, um,

And I'm so excited to have you here because I am obsessed with the Karen Reid case. And it's one of those that I've covered on my Juicy Crimes, which I do on Patreon, and I've covered it here. And I love all the different theories. And I've tried to cast her of what the show would be, the movie that'll be about her life. Ooh, who do you think it'll be? Oh, well, I thought of someone last night that I think would be really good. Who? Jessica Biel.

That is a good one. Do you think she could do a Boston accent? I think she's a really good actress. So I think if she wanted to, of course, we could also go with, let me go to Karen Reid. We could also go, I mean, it doesn't have to be the exact look and it doesn't have to be someone who's brunette and doesn't have to be someone who kind of has like the, like the kind of hooded slanted, like sexy eye. I think who's the girl that played one drop one,

Amanda Seyfried. Because I think she is such a good actress. I think, and because she embodied that character of Elizabeth Holmes, I think she could do her really well. I just know that when you talk about, can some, could she do an accent? Yeah. There's certain actors that like, you know, can get it down and do it. I don't want Blake Lively to do her awful Boston accent. I don't know.

From the town? From the town where she was having an affair with Ben Affleck, allegedly. Oh my gosh. I just saw a clip recently of someone posted of Reese Witherspoon. And they were like, I think she's talking about her friend Jennifer Garner. Because she was like being starky. Like she was doing like a roast or something. And she was like, and what?

when you send nudes to your married boyfriend, don't include your face. And everyone was like, I think that's because you see how Jennifer Garner recently did some posts. This is how I talked to Blake Lively. Like everything's just coming out. I know. There's also been the new information I just saw this weekend. We can talk a little bit about

that. Don't get into Karen. Here's the real crime. No, I have some new information too. So go about Justin and Blake. Yeah. Okay. So what I had heard this weekend is that they had her company she created. Yes. The Van City, which is Ryan's and hers was like Tars, whatever, Tarzana something. Yes. And how they were saying that the affair did for sure start during the Green Lantern and that that's when the company was created. And it was like a hybrid of the name and

all of this stuff just kind of again illustrating allegedly illustrating all of the shadiness

This episode of Juicy Scoop is sponsored by Booking.com, Booking.yeah. When it comes to planning travel, it's really specific to what you need for that specific trip. So whether I'm going with the whole family and now I have young adults and maybe they're bringing a special someone, we need to find a place where we can all feel like we can get together but have our separate time alone. That's why I love Booking.com, Booking.yeah.

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Treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.com slash juicy for 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash juicy to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash juicy. The other part of that whole thing is that it was that company that...

That they said, this company made this weird lawsuit. That then was able to have that publicist go, oh my God, I'm being sued. Okay, here's all the text messages. Because the Justin Baldoni side never understood how this even began. And now they're realizing that that company, whatever you said, Van? It's like Tarzan, some weird thing. Sent out this...

this thing, this frivolous lawsuit that then got those text messages with then from there, they surmised, Oh my God, there was a smear campaign against us against Blake from Justin Baldoni side. And according to people that are talking to the Justin Baldoni people, they now, they were so blindsided, Justin, and so confused from the beginning of when she first did the lawsuit, then the New York times article came,

And now they believe in their research that some of the bad press and videos that they were getting from her supposedly being rude on set and whatever it was really came from DV victims, domestic violent victims who were unhappy with her, the way she promoted the movie. And they were fans of Colleen who wrote the book and it's them who got

who were doing the kind of getting out the bad stories about Blake. And it was never Justin and his team, which one of the things I find fascinating about this whole thing is all of that. The bots, the spirit campaigns, how it comes about, how it can roll, how when you're the recipient of it, it seems much larger than it really is. Why sometimes you should probably not acknowledge it and let it go.

Because I always said, I forgot about the bad press by the time the New York Times article came out. I'd forgotten all about it. 100%. And it tracks if other people were responsible for it. Because I remember when I saw the movie, I saw it with my sister, I had read the book. And I myself was like, this is horrible. The way they're portraying this is completely wrong. They didn't even stay true to the book. So I could see where people were getting angry about that.

and how it's spoken. But to your point, yeah, you just ride the wave of the bad press because it's going to be in the rear view mirror before you know it. Just like, don't get sucked up and now look at what's happening. And now according to, you know, what's out there is, yes, the depositions are coming and Taylor Swift will have to

do it, which I mean, that can end a friendship. Yeah. Where you're like, I have to, I mean, anything that's like turn over your text messages will make everybody's butthole cleanse. Like it is just anything like that. It's like, what? I, how far back do we have to go? Like what? I would never want my text messages out there. Nobody hack me, please. Nobody hack me. I mean, it's like, yeah, it's just like, what the hell? Yeah. It's crazy. Um,

Anyway, so let's get into Karen Reid, who will not be played by Blake Lively. Yes, definitely. She is a juicy scooper. Karen Reid is? Yes. Ah, okay. Somebody I know met her. Can't say who met her. So I want to give her case justice. Yep. And I have said, since you're the expert, why don't you say to the people that might still be confused of what this case is about...

Why don't you explain a little bit about it? Okay. So Karen Reed is a 44-year-old woman from Massachusetts, and she's accused of hitting her Boston cop boyfriend, John O'Keefe, with her car while she was under the influence, and then it ultimately resulted in his death.

This was back in January of 2022. And so they had gone out drinking that night with a bunch of other cop friends. They went from bar to bar, consumed a fair amount of alcohol. And then towards the end of the night, one of the women that she was with said, oh, we're all going to go back to my sister's house, who's also married to a Boston cop. And we're going to kind of have the after party keep going.

So they go to the house and according to Karen she pulls up she they've never been to that house before so she wanted to make sure that they were welcome and so John got out of the car he was going to go pop his head in and be like hey is it cool for here and then like come back out and get Karen. They had obviously been drinking so he goes in and she says he doesn't come back out so she just increasingly is getting irritated and then ends up just being like F John I'm going back home to his house.

Then she wakes up around four in the morning. He's still not home. And so she starts panicking. She calls her friend, Jen McCabe, who was the one who invited them to that house. And she's like, where's John? Where's John? Like, have you seen him? Nobody has seen him.

Does that girl... So that girl was just... That girl was the sister-in-law of the owner of the house? Yeah, her sister's... Yeah, so the sister-in-law of the owner. And was she able to... At that point, did that girl answer the phone? The sister-in-law? At 4 a.m.? Yeah, and...

That's what, so that is where it gets interesting. She never called her sister. Okay. When they got back to that house, they ran, they went to John's house, then they came back. And then she gets like two friends, right? To come with her to go back to the house. And they go back to the house. She sees John. In the snow. In the snow. Jumps out of the car. She's like, that's him. That's him. She goes, tries to start warming him up, getting him, like doing CPR, but

They're in front of the house, which is Jen's sister who lives in there. They just found a dead body on the lawn. She doesn't even go up, knock on the door to make sure her sister's okay. Her sister's husband, who's a first responder, a trained cop, doesn't come out. Okay, so wait. Just so I can. So Karen gets her friend Jen, whose sister lives in the house. They hop in the car with Karen first thing in the morning, 4.30 in the morning, 5 in the morning.

to go back to the house, and that's where Karen, who is still behind the wheel, right? She's driving or Sunnywell's driving? So at first she drove to Jen's, and then their friend Carrie met up as well. Okay. They said, let's go check John's house again, even though that's where Karen just came from. They're like, maybe you didn't see him. Maybe he came home and he was in another room. Okay. So they get back to John's. He's not there. So at that point, they're like,

Okay, let's go to the Albert family home. Let's go see if we can find him or if we can see anything on the way. Maybe he was hit by a snowplow driver. Maybe something happened. So then they all drive back. Karen's not driving at that point. She's in the backseat. Carrie's the one driving. Freaking out. Just freaking out. And she's like, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? Trying to figure out what had happened.

Okay. So then they get to the house. She sees her boyfriend in the snow. She tries to revive him. They call 911. Yes. But nobody goes up to the house to ring the bell, including Karen. Including Karen. And nobody comes out of the house. To see what the hell is going on. Exactly. Exactly.

And they're not, and there are sirens and things. Yeah, it was a blizzard. So the wind was, I guess, like howling and really loud. And so they're saying they didn't really hear everything. But yeah, paramedics are coming. Karen, you can hear here in the body cam footage, she is just screaming hysterical. So I personally don't know how you wouldn't be able to hear that right below, you know, a window in your front yard. But nobody came out. They never went in and knocked on the door either, which is...

It's kind of odd. Maybe not for Karen, but certainly for the sister. I know if it was in front of my sister's house, I'd be like, somebody's dead. I need to go check on my sister, you know? Right. I'm like, I mean, obviously. Or like when you call the police, check on people in the house. Is everybody okay? You're right. Like, wouldn't you be freaked out if there's a dead body? Could everybody be dead in the house? Right. And what's so interesting is that when the police arrived and all of the first responders were on the scene, they never secured the crime scene. The police never went and knocked on the door to talk to anybody.

And when they started collecting evidence, they collected it in red solo cups and stop and shop bags, like 7-Eleven type bags. Like nothing was secure from the get-go. It was just mishandled right from the jump. Okay, so we get to...

like then what happens why do they think that she did it because because she says it out like in a panic did I I know there's like a lot of that like right in the moment of being like oh my god did I back into him somehow did I not see him yeah she was asking you know could I have hit him did I hit him she had a cracked taillight which then she pointed out to her friends she's like could I have hit him look at my cracked taillight come to find out later when reviewing ring camera footage there

There's actually footage of her when she's leaving John's house that morning going to look for him. She reverses and you can see her car hit his car that was parked and hit it with her, the passenger side taillight, so hard that his entire wheel starts moving and shaking. So that could have been when she cracked the taillight when she reversed in, not from hitting him when he was, you know, out front of the house in the snow.

But so they find him. He has cuts all over his arm, which we can get to in a minute, are not consistent with being hit by a car. He has a black eye, blunt force trauma on the back of his head. He's bleeding. And they say that his ultimate cause of death, I don't think they officially ruled it, but they believe it was the blunt force trauma. And then he died of hypothermia in the snow.

So after they start investigating everything, they end up arresting her for, I believe, the very first arrest. It was just for manslaughter. And then they ended up increasing the charges to second degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the scene of a crash that resulted in a death. So she first went to trial last spring. Did they ever at that point give her a breathalyzer?

I believe there's some conflicting information. What I had gathered when we first started covering this case about a year ago is that they tested her blood alcohol level, I want to say, 24 hours later, maybe a little bit less than that. And at that point, it was at a .08.

This is all alleged, everybody. Nobody freak out. But then when they were doing the math of what it would have been at midnight the night before, it would have been like a .19 to a .21 or something like that. Which I believe all of it from what I've read of how many drinks they had and...

And I know from my sister being a criminal defense attorney that she has had clients that have gotten DUIs the next day, like going to get breakfast and things like that. When you're that drunk, even if you slept and woke up and had a cup of coffee, you could still be kind of drunk. So, yeah, I believe she was drunk driving for sure. But it's like...

Okay, so then we get to the trial, the first trial. Yes. And that's where they do put all these people from the party on the stand. And let's get into the juicy stuff that's confusing but juicy of their relationship, cheating,

What what is the thing that where these crossover relationships happened with these cops and her and everybody. So this is where it kind of all starts to fall apart is in this first trial because obviously at this point now the phones have been seized. They're doing they're looking at everything as evidence and everything

everybody's dirty laundry is on display. So Karen had been texting with another officer, I believe he's a DEA agent. I can't remember exactly. Brian Higgins. And they had been sending very flirtatious messages back and forth in the days leading up to when they all were at the bar that night, when they were all having drinks and things like that. And she and John had a little bit of

you know, not a toxic relationship, but they would have spats, they would have issues. They even fought the morning of them all going out and having drinks that night, but then they were fine and they all met up with friends. So these text messages get released, which shows that Brian Higgins was interested in Karen, that she had exchanged some flirtatious messages with him too, but then ghosted him a few days before the night in question. This episode of Juicy Scoop is sponsored by Booking.com, Booking.yeah. When it comes to planning travel...

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A completely single man when he was flirting with Karen. To my knowledge, yes. Okay. Yeah. Continue. And he was at that house, though, that night, too, and at the bars, all of that. So she ghosts him, apparently, a few days before, and then they see each other at the bars. And everybody in the footage, the CCTV footage from the bars, everybody looks happy, everybody's getting along. But there are some people out there who theorize that Brian didn't look very happy in the footage and that he kind of looked on edge. So that's where then...

I think all of the conspiracies start to take flight of what really happened to John, who could have been responsible, was he maybe angry when they were all back at the house? Question. Of the flirty techs, to your knowledge, were they like...

What was the guy that passed away? John O'Keefe. Okay. Was it like anything about John or was it just like you're cute too? Maybe we could talk. Were there any like naked photos sent? Like how deep was the flirtation? It wasn't like no sexting to my knowledge from what I had seen. No like bashing on John. More of like...

Oh, yeah, you've caught my eye from the beginning. Or, like, little things like that. Not innocent, but, like, not outright. Little fishing on both sides. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Okay, so then who else is the player? So then Jen McCabe also comes into the picture here. Which is her friend. This is her friend. Whose sister lives in the house. Yes. And who are the owners of the house? The Albert family. Okay. Yes. And is Mr. Albert a cop as well? Brian Albert is a former cop. Okay. Yes. And...

What's interesting is that Jen McCabe had a Google search at 2.27 in the morning that said, how long to die in the cold? How was incorrectly spelled. It was H-O-S. But she Googles this, and then John's body wasn't found until 6 a.m. So that, of course, when that got brought up in the trial, everybody's like, why would you be Googling that? And what was her answer? That she really Googled it at 6 when they all were at the scene and when they were trying to make sense of what had happened and that Karen had said, like,

You know, Google, how long does it take to die in the cold? And that the reason it was timestamped at 227 is because, you know, how when you open your phone, there's like old browsers in your Safari or whatever. She's like, I opened a browser from when I was searching something else at 227 and it just like triggered that. I think that's a pretty that's something that if I was in jury, I'd be like, I can't say that that couldn't happen.

I would say that that seems somewhat reasonable. So let me ask you this then. Okay. If that is reasonable, would you ever search that and then delete that search later? No. Because I don't even know how to delete a search. So she deleted the search. It shows as deleted.

I know. And then there were some more searches after that that did happen around 6 a.m. Okay, so what were some more searches? Just like, again, like another one of how long to die in the cold and some random things like that. From her or from other people? From her, but that all aligned with the right timeline. But then the 2-27 one is what stuck out. And what's also interesting with that is around that time period of 2-30 a.m., there were also two phone calls from Brian Higgins.

to Brian Albert, the homeowner of the house. And when they were questioned about this on the stand, they said they did not talk to each other that night, that they didn't make any phone calls. And their excuse was that they butt dialed each other by accident. So they're saying we were all at the house...

And they said we never saw him, right? Yeah. They said he never arrived. And then what did Brian say? Oh, then I went home. And then accidentally butt dialed him once I was home and in my bed. Well, so Brian didn't go home. He went to the police station to move some cars because the snowplow was going to come or something like that. While he's drunk. Yeah. And they were all drunk. All these cops were drinking and driving. I mean, it's...

So it's insane. OK, so he goes and I believe he went around one thirty to the station, give or take to move these cars. He says that he never talked to anybody on the phone that night. He definitely didn't call Brian Albert yet now. And he even testified to that under oath like I never called anybody since that first trial. There is now footage of him outside of the police station at one thirty on the phone.

And so when the first calls were brought up, they explained it away being like, oh, no, it was a butt dial. The homeowner, Brian Albert, said like he was being intimate with his wife and that that triggered it, which is your phone in your pants. Like, I don't understand. Yeah, like the phone was on the bed and he rolled over while boning and then like his butt literally did hit the phone and then it was called him. And then the other guy just coincidentally butt dialed him back and then the phone call connected for 22 seconds.

Got it. Yeah. And then what was the other part I remember about someone getting rid of their phone or their SIM card? And he said, oh, I do that all the time as a DEA agent or something. So that was Brian Higgins, the same one who had the flirtatious messages, the same one who went to move the cars that night, who butt dialed. They were going to give him formal notice, like say, I forget what the exact dates were, but if right now if I was going to say,

Heather, tomorrow you're going to get formal notice from the police department, from all of us, that you cannot destroy your phone because we're going to need to go through it as evidence. And today you break the SIM card, you break the phone, you put it in a trash bag, you drive to a military base and you put it in two different dumpsters. And then you explain it by saying, I'm a DEA agent. I have sensitive stuff on my phone. And so but he did admit to doing in two different dumpsters and all that stuff. Why do you think he admitted to that then?

I don't know. I mean, maybe he had no other choice at that point. I'm not really sure. And this is where it starts to get really sticky because there's just so much reasonable doubt in this case because even if Karen was blackout drunk and hit John...

What these people are doing isn't helping themselves in any way. I mean, there's so much shadiness all the way down to, again, the evidence collection, the Google search, the calls, all these things. And then during the first trial, there were experts, crash reconstruction experts that testified that said the wounds on John's body were not consistent with a vehicle. There even were experts who said they looked more like dog bites, dog scratches, bruises.

The homeowner owned a German shepherd who conveniently was rehomed three months after John's body was found. They also redid their basement flooring, allegedly. They sold their house under value. I mean, there's just so many different things at this point that it seems people are covering up for one reason or another that it certainly makes you ask the question, is she innocent or being framed or did she do this? So when everything came... And then there was also something about, like, some other thing where there was...

a part of, didn't they find like a piece of the taillight glass or something in or claimed to have found it in him?

I believe they're. And they think that was planted or something? The taillight in general, it's alleged that it was planted because when they first arrived on the scene that morning at 6 a.m., they did two searches. They did one when they first arrived and then they came back later that day and did another search where they used a leaf blower to move the snow and kind of get things around it.

And when they did that, this is how much they were drinking too, right? John had a cocktail glass that they took with them from the bar. And so when he was in the snow, they found clear pieces of the cocktail glass on the snow, which is very difficult to see, right? Right. But they were able to find that. They didn't see any red taillight, no pieces of taillight for two searches. Then Karen's car was brought into the Sally Port for evidence.

And this is a whole other thing, which I'll go into, but it was brought in later after that, hours later, when they went back out for the third search with the CERT team, they found pieces of tail light.

So the allegation is, okay, well, how did you not see it for two searches, but you found clear glass and you didn't see any red against the snow? So they think once her car was brought in, maybe they took a couple little pieces of the already broken taillight and threw that in the snow or said they got it from the snow. Yes. And part of the reason for that as well is because there's footage of her car in the Sallyport, which is where they were checking it all for evidence. Right.

And they said, you know, you can see right here in this footage, nobody goes near her taillight. Nobody's trying to like mess with it. Nobody's shattering it more or taking pieces. It's right here in the footage. But then upon closer look, the footage was completely inverted, mirrored. So it was like it was as if you were looking on you were actually looking at the driver's side taillight, not the passenger. And when you look closer on the opposite side of the car, you could see somebody next to the passenger taillight.

Oh, wow. It's like there's just so much shadiness. So, okay, so the first trial, they go into deliberation.

And how quickly do they come back and say, we cannot, it's a mistrial, we need to do this again? So the jury came back, I can't remember if it was two or three times, to the judge saying, like, we cannot agree unanimously. And the judge kept, Judge Bev kept sending them back saying... And what was their thing to either say manslaughter or second degree or innocent? What was the choices? So the total charges were second degree murder, manslaughter, and then leaving the scene of a

crash that resulted in a death. And just to remind people, like, second degree is you killed them, but you didn't plan it. Yes. It wasn't premeditated. It wasn't premeditated. And then manslaughter is like you were driving and you accidentally hit someone. And then what was the last? Or innocent. Yeah. Or and she had the charge of leaving the scene of a crash that resulted in a death.

The problem was apparently it wasn't communicated to the jury that all of these charges could have individual verdicts. And they all were under the impression it had to be unanimous on all of them. So they kept coming back, but she kept pushing back saying, you guys have to come with a verdict. Finally. Yeah. They finally come back. They're like, we can't. And so it's declared a mistrial.

After it was announced that it was a mistrial, jurors started coming forward saying, well, no, we all unanimously agreed that she was not guilty of second degree murder being the highest charge. And one of the other charges, I think it must have been, was it leaving the scene or manslaughter? I can't remember now. But they had said, we agreed that like unanimously she was not. But because it was never announced as a verdict and read into record, technically it doesn't count. And they said they were never clear on the instructions that they could use.

even do that. It wasn't told to them in that way. So everybody, when that came out, was like, there's no way they're going to do a retrial then at this point. Sure enough, the state announced, though, that they planned to retry her. And that's what is now beginning this week. And with this retrial, there's some things that I have seen that the judge is not allowing that I think will hurt Karen's case. Like, isn't it that they can't bring up all these

people what do you know what where we are yeah there's been some conversation about not allowing the arca experts the reconstruction team back their testimony back in but as of what i heard most recently it looks like they are going to be allowed in but she needs to meet with them sidebar first and see what their report was yeah before she allows it in but because there was like money exchange the state is saying that they've now like colluded and that they have more of a personal relationship and so

They're trying to pull those experts out. They also have said that they can't bring in the third-party defense during opening statements, which they already had opening statements. And the third-party defense is somebody in the House. Yeah, somebody else did it. So now they're saying they can't or they will bring that up? They can bring it up during the trial itself, but not during opening statements, which we already had opening statements on Tuesday. And they obviously didn't bring that up. Okay, so that's not that bad. No. Okay.

And I mean, how do they find a jury that isn't aware of this from the media already? It took them a lot of time to get the jury. I think over about two weeks to finally seat the full jury.

And I mean, out front of that courthouse, there are hundreds of people every single day with signs, shirts saying free Karen Reid. She didn't do this or certainly there's not enough evidence to convict her. So much so that the judge had to issue a 200 foot buffer zone from the courthouse because it was becoming such a circus out there. And so there was wasn't there recently a show or documentary about.

And she was interviewed in that. Yeah, Body in the Snow. And what was your opinion of that? Was that good for her defense? Or what do you think? I personally don't think that it...

And I don't I don't think it hurt her in any way. I think a lot of people were like, why would she do this when she still is going to be going on trial? Like, especially because she has a little bit of a bold, abrasive personality. But I think it kind of just to me at least showed her conviction and the fact of her saying, like, I didn't do this. Let me lay it all out for you. Let me walk you through it. And I think they did a really good job showing that. And.

Clearly so because now it's like taking social media by storm and everybody is following this case and interested in what's going on. And even when I do polls on my podcast and on YouTube, right now it's at like 95% think that she's innocent. So I don't know what's going to happen. But it's scheduled to go on for eight weeks. And if she was convicted of, let's just say, the lease thing, the manslaughter, do you know what she would be looking at? What kind of time? I don't know the exact time. I would imagine...

I mean, maybe a few years. I don't know what the exact time would be. Was she ever presented with like, okay, you can plead to this and we don't have to go to trial? And she was like, fuck no. Not to my knowledge. Yeah. Yeah, because it's, I think they, you know, there's people in the town that have written, you know, and been like, yeah, this is like a problem with, you know, corrupt and, you know, something went down. Let's take it to the grave. Let's, you know. So where does it leave with the two friends that were originally in the car, one being the friend of the homeowner? Yeah.

Does she not talk to those girls anymore? Like, where is that? Well, Karen doesn't talk to any of them, but they all are still friendly with each other. One of them, Carrie, was actually testifying today and was on the stand. But another piece that I didn't even bring up. For defense or prosecution? For the prosecution and then on cross. Okay. But one of the things that's so major in this case, too, is the lead investigator of the case, Michael Proctor. He was a state trooper. He was the lead investigator. He has since been fired.

for misconduct during this investigation, not during anything else, but during the Karen Reed case. His text messages were pulled to where he called her a see you next Tuesday, said she should off herself, said he was looking for nudes in her phone or like didn't come across any nudes yet. And like just flippant.

Fully disgraced. And so he hadn't been fired during the first trial. Since that first trial, he now has been fired. So that's what the defense brought up in opening statements, too. They're like, you know, the state's not even mentioning Michael Proctor. He was their lead investigator, the state trooper. He's not even a part of the force anymore because of how poorly he handled this particular investigation and the colluding and the cover-up and everything that went in with it. And so I think that's going to be a huge win for her this go-around.

around. Because once the jury hears that, they're like, the lead investigator got fired for misconduct on this case. This episode of Juicy Scoop is brought to you by Legacy Box. You guys know that I recently moved and I found old videos, like the first time I did stand up, lots of great photos, of course. And I got Legacy Box and it made it so easy. And I want to share with you how simple it is. All I did was put those items in the Legacy Box and

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Sister Wives is back at last. And while the Browns have gone their own separate ways, that doesn't mean that they're done with each other. Mary and Janelle are looking for love and land, but first form an unlikely alliance. Janelle is also hanging with her bestie, Christine, who's off living in newly married bliss. And Cody and Robin are all that's left out there on Coyote Pass wondering, can they be happy in a monogamous relationship?

And after all the joy and the drama, they hit the tell-all hot seat and must answer the questions we've been begging to know and maybe just serving up some spicy answers of their own. Has Cody zenned out? Is Robin owning her moment? Have Mary and Janelle finally found a special someone? And you know Christine isn't going to hold anything back. You have got to catch Sister Wives, all new Sunday at 10 on TLC.

Sisterwise, all new Sunday at 10 on TLC. I know getting your hands on Ozempic or Regovi might be difficult. You don't know where to start.

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That's ro.co slash Juicy Scoop to see if your insurance covers GLP-1s for free. Go to ro.co slash safety for black box warning and full safety information about GLP-1 medications. Getting back to the little bit of flirting with this guy, from what I remember, which intrigued me, was it sounds like,

He might have had some infidelity, the victim. And then so maybe this was her, you know, kind of getting back at him. There was also some talk of, you know, she was a professor. He was a cop. So there's like that little weird like Boston townie kind of a thing where like she wouldn't necessarily be in this group of like cops. So maybe she was slightly the outsider. Have you...

heard any of that. I haven't heard much of that, but I could definitely see that. And they did have a fight on a vacation that they went on around, I believe it was a New Year's Eve vacation prior to this happening. So like a month before, a little less than a month. So I, and she was getting jealous on this vacation. So I could see where maybe she was trying to like poke the bear a little bit or like see what her options were. But just, yeah, just see if like, you know, what attention she can get. Yeah. Whatever. So now with all that being said,

What, you know, I'm going to tell you what my theory is. Okay. Because there's a few. There's, he goes in and starts talking whatever and he's

You know, yeah, she's like pissed. Like, hello, I'm your girlfriend sitting out here in the fucking cold. Like, I don't, you know, are we really invited to this party? One of those things, like, come back to the house. Then you get to like the third location and you're like, do we want to keep going? Just go in and see. And so enough time goes by or maybe not much time at all. And she just starts to go, oh, I don't even want to go in there. He's not even coming out and checking on me. So he could, I think she could have maybe only waited like three minutes, you know? And so then she,

There's a couple of things that could happen. Either he did get in an argument with somebody, you know, and get hit, whatever, and die. And they threw him out there. Or he may have been hit and stumbled out there to see if she was still there and then saw the car wasn't there and slipped and hit his head on the snow and didn't get up. And the people in the house didn't know that he was dead, didn't cover it up.

The other part is, was he also attacked by the dog? And that's why he had the marks on his hand and again then walked out to see like where she was or whatever. I will say one of the biggest theories that I have seen out there from everybody who's been following this case, and it's all alleged but it's out there, is that Colin Albert, the nephew of the homeowner, was at that house. How old is he?

Oh, gosh. Roughly. I think early 30s, maybe late 20s. Okay, not a kid. No, not a kid. Okay. But maybe a little younger. And so I've heard that he had issues with John for reasons which I will not get into just because, again, it's all alleged. Well, what is it? Just allege the issues. That he's a drug dealer and that John was kind of onto his –

onto that. And then the nephew might've been telling Joyce that John might've known. Yeah. And so that when they got, when John got to that house that Colin didn't know that he was coming over. So then that was an altercation when he saw him. And the reason people suspect that too is because Colin had all of these scrapes and blood all over his knuckles. And he says that it's from falling in the ice, um, or on the ice rather. And

So the defense was going to bring Collins name up as a third party defense. But then the judge ruled that there wasn't there was insufficient evidence to name him, you know, particular specifically him as a third party defense. But a lot of people believe that he had some involvement. And then because he is a little bit on the younger side and he's the nephew that all of these people are trying to protect.

another cop's family member. With the dog scratches and bites or whatever, couldn't they have, can't they figure it out if that's canine teeth or paw scratches versus a woman's scratch? So they did have an expert from the defense who said that it was consistent with claw marks and dog bites. They tested the dog bites and it did not show dog DNA, but it did show pig DNA.

which was kind of like, why the hell would this guy have pig DNA on him? And so while it's unclear why, a lot of people are like, oh, well, think of like the pig ears that you give to a German shepherd or like treats and things like that. True. But then the dog was rehomed. So any further testing or like impressions or anything like that? Can't they find the dog? I don't know how you, maybe. I don't know. I don't know where he got rehomed. Or she, sorry, Chloe. Or they just decided. Or maybe even the defense was like,

Let's just throw it out there because if it doesn't match. It's enough reasonable doubt. Right. If it doesn't match, then what do we do if it doesn't match? And that's maybe not how we want to. Do you have any idea how she's paying for this defense? They've started raising a lot of money. I believe most of her team is working pro bono at this point. But they do have a defense fund, which when I saw yesterday, it was like over 800 grand at this point. Wow. So, you know, the other thing is it still is possible. I mean, it still is possible.

Or do you think it's not possible that she accidentally backed up? Like he came out. She was like, oh, fuck this. Didn't see him come out. Backed up, hit him and then left. I think it's definitely possible. Could it be possible that he went in there, had this altercation with a fucking crazy dog and nobody else and was like, went, it was like, fuck it. I'm not staying here. What the fuck? Take care of your dog next time. Walked out.

And just as he was walking out, she had lost her patience and still hit him.

But I guess my hang up with that is that it would make sense because of how much she had been drinking and to not remember it. But with the injuries not being consistent with being hit by a vehicle, I don't know how you would explain that. Like the punched eye. Yeah, it's like the black eye, the blunt force trauma on the back of his head, the stuff on his arm not being consistent. The blunt force trauma on the back of the head I do think could be consistent with being hit and going fast down on the back of...

Yeah. Ice or... Like flying or... Yeah. Or a driveway or whatever. And my thought... But the black eye... And then sometimes if... I mean, when I fainted on stage, like within 24 hours, I had two black eyes. And it...

I was like, oh my, like, why do I have black eyes? I didn't follow my face. And they said, when you hit your head really hard, it can happen. So sometimes like you, you know, or like, I was like, oh, I wonder, you know, so then I was like, that kind of makes sense. But if there was, were there two, were there one?

I think, too, I mean, when I had first heard about this case, in my mind, I was like, well, what if she had dropped him off and he was, like, bending over to, like, grab—he dropped something and he was bending something, bending over, and, like, she hit him while he was bent over and that's what hit his head, or, like, that's why there wasn't anything to his body here because the impact was on his head, possibly. But I don't—I don't know. I think there's a lot of possibilities, but—

I think there's too much reasonable doubt. As a juror, I would be like, there's just not enough for me to put this girl away. Exactly. And there's just too, and it's beyond a reasonable doubt. And there's so much doubt. There's so much doubt. I think I would come back with just driving under the influence because she basically admitted to that. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. Can you I guess you can charge somebody after the fact with that. Wouldn't you be? I don't know. Maybe you can't at that point. I mean, she's obviously suffered enough. She never she always was out on bail. It wasn't like she had to like stay in jail during this time. Right. No.

I do think she kind of likes the limelight, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think so, too. I think that she's gained so much support from the public that she does like that, and I think she likes her voice being heard. I think the defense team's like that as well. How soon if she gets off that she starts a podcast? I think it's about a 99% chance. You know what? She actually is already doing one. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah.

Maybe her co-host could be Gypsy Rose. Oh, my God. Who else? Definitely a podcast or, like, a TV special, something. I mean, there's already TV specials in effect. What about The Real Housewives of Boston? That would be a good one. Could she be on that? I think, well, I mean, she's definitely, if she gets out of this, she's going to be, like, the leper in Boston. Like, because all of Boston's police force is, like, against her. Yeah, but what about all these people that are for her? Yeah, I don't know.

This is what they're going to do. They're going to cast Real Housewives of Boston. She's going to be on it. And then there's also going to be a woman who's, it won't be her current husband, but her ex-husband was a cop. And so they kind of form an alliance. But then there's another woman that, you know, is an attorney. And she's like, you know, but now she was an attorney. She's an attorney. But now she's like, it's a lot easier being an influencer. So I'm going to be an influencer. But she says little snide remarks about,

legal things and we're off to the races yeah you're welcome Andy Cohen I also like it for a lifetime movie for a movie yeah but if we come on we need a Boston Real Housewives franchise for sure get rid of New York go to Boston

And there you go. Could be real good. Well, okay. So the trial just started. Do we have any idea how long, any prediction of like how many days this might be or anything? It's slated to be about eight weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. God, I mean, it's pretty terrifying because traditionally –

In my experience and my knowledge is a mistrial reach like another second trial seems to benefit the prosecution. It does. Statistically, if it goes to second trial, it benefits the prosecution. But I will say opening statements is usually what impacts the jury the most. And the opening statements this week, the defense clearly.

crushed it and the state was like so boring. They did it from like a paramedics point of view. It was just not engaging, not compelling. And then the defense came out swinging to where if I was on the jury hearing those opening statements. What was that? What was the in a nutshell? What was the defense openings?

statement. Pointing out all of the inconsistencies, the Google search, the phone being destroyed, Michael Proctor being dismissed and fired for the misconduct, all of these different things, the experts who had testified that it wasn't a collision that caused the injuries. I mean, just everything in a nutshell summarized, almost like the reel that you saw on my Instagram. And they just came out swinging. And it was such a rock solid opening statement. Great. Do you think that it would be a different...

fascination if she wasn't an attractive brunette. If she wasn't attractive. I think it would still be fascinating because from what I feel like a lot of the public doesn't like her because of her attitude. That's what I'm saying. It can be both. It can be both. Like I've asked my sister, you know,

You know, how much goes into telling your client what to wear, how much makeup to wear, you know. And one thing she specifically said, like, yeah, like big blown up lips and stuff like that. It's not good. Yeah. Well, yeah. Remember? Like not good. Remember Jodi Arias and she put on like the little glasses and she tried to like sex herself down a lot. Right.

And then, yeah, or, you know, the Menendez brothers, you know, a second trial or something. Yeah, doing the – or no, I think the first trial they did the sweaters and the second trial they didn't or something. Yeah.

Because they were like, you're too old for the sweaters. But like, yeah, you wanted them, you wanted to feel sorry for them. I mean, it all makes sense. But like downplaying her looks or putting someone in a suit that's, you know, a gang member or whatever, it's all goes with it. It appears like she's, you know, just staying consistent to like her style and look. Yeah, she's in blazers, like sheath dresses. Yeah, just buttoned up and professional. Right. And but it's not like she's.

Do you think there's any, like, I wonder if anyone's giving her clothes?

Maybe. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure. I mean, if I like work for theory or something, I'd be like, OK. Yeah. Or like, you know, why not? Like, yeah, I mean, you're getting a lot more out of that than just sending it to some, you know, little twat on TikTok that's going to dance around in it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is a great looking blazer that, you know, you can get for eighty two dollars or whatever. Market to the millennials and the Gen Xers. I get it. Moving on to another crime.

Give us the latest. This says, Judge permits bushy eyebrow testimony in the Idaho quadruple murder trial. Where are we with the horrible quadruple murder trial of the Idaho college students that were stabbed and butchered to death by...

And possibly this guy, Brian. Yeah, Brian Koberger. So the trial is scheduled to start in August of this year. Right now, they had had a gag order on the case, but now with all these pretrial motions being filed, we're starting to get a little bit of a glimpse into what evidence they have, what's happened. So it started a few weeks ago with the 911 call finally being released, which...

Everybody, of course, had been giving the roommates shit for because they'd waited, what was it, seven hours to call 911. So we hear that call. We also start— And what is your understanding of that call? Because, I mean, I remember when it went down. And I remember I was at a party with a mom whose daughter was friends with one of the girls. One of the girl—the girl that—one of the two girls that survived. Mm-hmm.

And, you know, how much they were going through and how horrible it was. And I was like, what was it? And I remember back then it was like they, you know, they heard something and then just like hoped that it wasn't anything big deal and went to bed and was drunk and didn't want to be nosy or interrupt or whatever. And then so then I then I was always confused with they couldn't.

They were too scared to go upstairs, so they called a guy that lived across the street, and it was he. Like, what was that 911 call? Explain what now your understanding is. So they kind of—they were all together. It was the two surviving roommates and then the guy, Hunter. And I don't know if he lived across the street or where exactly he lived, but he did come over. And so the 911 call is pretty chaotic when you listen because they're passing the phone around to each other. They obviously are terrified as they're, like, realizing what's happening. But—

you the way it's laid out and kaylee's father has even spoken out on this after the fact kaylee's one of the victims that they did the girls weren't going into any of the rooms and seeing what happened and there's a part in the call in which you can hear hunter where it sounds like he opens the door and finally because one of the bodies was against the door for zanna and ethan in that room and that he sees what happened and you can hear his voice

trembling and him yelling at the girls get out get out of here because he's does he's trying to shield them he doesn't want them to see it so you hear the call where they're like we're trying to figure out what's going on she's not breathing she's passed out but there's still some confusion as did they not see any blood did that weren't they not getting into the room how did they know she was passed out were they trying to get in and they could only see maybe like a crack through it or is it was it because they were banging and like she wasn't coming like coming to the door and so they were assuming she was passed out

Because they haven't testified yet, we don't know all of that information. So everybody's ripping this 911 call apart trying to say how would they not smell the blood? How would they not see any blood? Why would they have waited that long to call? But in my opinion, after hearing a lot of 911 calls, you can hear the sheer terror in their voices. So when they were calling each other because they're like, I saw something that's freaky. They were texting each other. Texting.

Do you think it was just, you know, they were drunk too and they were like, this is weird, this is freaky, and then just passed out, fell asleep, and then didn't wake up till 10? Well, they did wake up earlier because now their phone activity has been released and they woke up as early as 7 a.m. and they were on Instagram, on Snapchat, calling their, like, a phone call out to a parent, like, nothing major but definitely phone activity. Yeah.

My just going back to my early 20s, I think they were probably outwasted that night. They come home. They did text each other that they saw someone and they were like, it's I'm freaked out. It looked like he was wearing some sort of ski mask or something like that.

But then again, they had so many people coming in and out of that house at any given moment. So I could see where if you're wasted, you're like trying to make sense of it and almost being like, I'm not going to call the police or I'm not going to freak out. Like they texted, they tried calling, I believe the surviving roommates, they didn't answer. But like then just being like, I'm probably overreacting. I'm just drunk. Like I'm going to pass out or I'm going to go to bed. Then when they wake up in the morning, whether they're still a little high or drunk or whatever it is or hungover, that you're just...

you know, rotting in bed. You're sitting there going on social media, like checking your DMs, looking at your snap history, not thinking like being like, oh, I overreacted last night. Right. Not thinking I need to get out there and check what's going on. But then when they finally wake up and start moving out and like going into the house, they realize that something's wrong. They bring the friend over. It's probably so quiet up there. They're probably yelling hello. They're probably called them. They're probably like, hello, hello.

And then they invite the guy over. Yeah. Yeah. Which there's this whole group now, I will say, in the past probably 14 months, I feel like everybody was...

pretty much in the camp although he hasn't gone to trial and it's all alleged that Brian Koberger was the guy over the past 14 months there has been a significant shift where there's this whole group of people out there they now they call themselves or they've been dubbed the pro burgers because of his last name where they believe he's innocent that he's being framed by law enforcement that it goes deeper into like drugs and this and that because some of the victims families were involved with drugs and things like that and so

I don't put much weight into those theories, especially now given that his Amazon history has been released. And what is that about? It shows that he bought a K-Bar knife, that he bought a knife sharpener, that he bought the sheath, that they were delivered under his name, delivered to him, but at his parents' house in Pennsylvania. Yeah.

But that was, you know, months and months before the murders happened. Then his browser history allegedly shows that after the murders, he went back to those listings maybe to repurchase them because he realized he lost the sheath or to see if, like, it was going to be in his history. I think there was even recently...

It came out that it was that he had tried to delete some of the purchase history as well, which I've never deleted a purchase in my Amazon history ever. So documents also show that he his phone pinged on the towers near the house in the months leading up to the crimes, which in like late night hours as though he was stalking and casing it. So.

A lot of things, in my opinion, that point to this being the guy. But there are a lot of people out there now who say he's innocent. And I think they're kind of further bolstering that theory based on the questionable activity from the surviving roommates, the delay in the 911 call, which is horrible. Oh, you know, that's one thing that always being a true crime fanatic.

is, you know, when they suspect the husband, when they suspect the wife. And, you know, you get this cop and it was like, it was a small town, whatever. And the cop's like 30. And he's like,

Like, I thought the behavior was strange. I'm like, really? How many murders? How many cases have you been on where a woman slipped or drowned in the bathtub and the husband wasn't hysterically crying? Like, what are you comparing it to? Who's to say how you're supposed to act when your dog dies, when your grandma who's 100 dies versus me?

My wife died, but I have kids in the house and I'm just it hasn't even hit me yet. Like all those things. And there's been so many times where like, you know, a mom was there was a famous case of a mom. They thought that she killed her kids on a couch, stabbed them. And she said someone must have come in and stabbed him. And I don't know, you know, she's where it is. But there was you know, she was always claimed her innocence.

And when it was the kids' birthdays, she went to their graves with somebody and she sprayed silly spray. Oh, Darlie. Darlie. And was like laughing. And that clip was all over the news being like, she's laughing and having fun. And it's like.

Well, her kids are dead. They loved Silly String. That was, she went to their grave. You know, had they been cremated, then she wouldn't have had that moment. If the, if, and then someone would have been like, why would you cremate? Like, it's just all those kinds of things. So it's like, I, you know, and to think that these girls, like what I heard about the girls and I, I believe like one,

Maybe you don't know. Did they both leave the school, I would assume? I mean, how could you stay at the school? I would think so. I think there's just so much PTSD in survivors. Yes. I mean, imagine how you're supposed to deal with this. And they're just getting ripped apart. I mean, there's survivor guilt and people that were in the sorority house of Ted Bundy that lived or was next door and weren't attacked. Like, the fact that

It's just maybe they didn't live. I don't know. But I know there's people that were there. And it's just, yeah, you can't. That part sucks. And the thing about the Ted Bundy sorority victim that maybe they were in the house and lived. They didn't have to open their Facebook and see that there's a new group forming. Like they didn't have to see all this stuff and just be scrolling and see us possibly talking about it or whatever. Yeah.

And that part I just think is like horrible. Now, what is this bushy eyebrow thing? So Dylan, one of the surviving roommates, the one who saw him in the hallway that night, said that all she to her recollection when she was giving her statement, all she could recall saying was bushy eyebrows. That was her term. So now they were trying to get that stricken so that they could bring that up. Yes. Yes.

And they're allowing it because it's what she saw. It was her testimony. And what's so interesting, too, is he took a selfie. What was it? At 1031 in the morning after the murders. So Brian did. Yes, Brian did. Where he's kind of he's in front of a shower curtain in his bathroom. He's kind of like smirking, giving a thumbs up. And people are wondering, like, is this like a proud moment? Why was he taking this selfie? Did he did he have like was he done cleaning up? What had happened?

So they're saying that the importance of that selfie needs to be admitted as well because his eyebrows in the selfie look bushy, which then ties back to what Dylan had said. Whereas now, of course, he's probably more groomed and trimmed and making sure he doesn't have bushy eyebrows. Do you know if they have collected any hair that is his or anything? They just have the touch DNA that was on the button of the sheath.

There hasn't been anything else released. The state feels very confident in their case, so I would imagine we will find out more. But as of right now, it's only that piece of touch DNA. And where do his parents stand? Because I know he was in the car with his dad when they pulled him over yesterday.

And arrested him, right? No. What was the story then? They were going on a cross-country trip back to Pennsylvania, and they got stopped for a traffic violation. Oh, and they had that cam footage, but they didn't know it was him yet, right? Oh. But then they started watching the parents' house while he was there in Pennsylvania, and that's when he was throwing things away in the neighbor's bins, putting things into Ziploc bags, wearing gloves, detailing the car. So that's the whole time when we were like, who did it, who did it, who did it?

And they were like, you know, these cops don't know. These are Keystone cops. They don't know what they're doing. That's another thing I think people don't realize, that they have to keep their cards close to them. They can't share all this stuff because there's so many sleuths. There's so many, you know, content creators, real reporters, people that are, you know, doing their own reporting, which I love too. But that can screw up that investigation. So they were on to him.

Pretty quickly, weren't they? I think it was within a few weeks after the murders. Yeah, they started figuring things out and they had pulled different traffic cams and things like that and saw the white car. Yeah. And so we don't know where his parents stand. Are they there? They're in his corner. Oh, they are. They are.

Are they paying for the defense? I don't know. I think I want to say that she's a public defender, if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong. I'd have to double check on that. And Taylor. But what's interesting is they're supportive of him. They want to be there at the trial. And one of the hearings and motions that's been filed recently has been because

the state is listing his parents on the witness list which would then mean that they can't sit through the trial until they go and testify so that their testimony won't be tainted in any way and so that they you know just to keep it pure so now they're they the judge has ruled okay you can have them on the witness list but you need to put them like earlier at the trial so that then they can be there for support of brian for the balance or for the majority of what i always think is so crazy that

you know, I've asked about it. I don't know that anybody else has really asked about it, but when I had Kim Goldman, sister of Ron Goldman, I said, you know, I've never really interviewed someone that's been in such a, like a high profile trial for so long. I'm like, do you ever find yourself in the bathroom with like OJ's daughter? And she's like, yes. Oh my gosh. Like it just, that's what I can't imagine. Like they're at this courthouse, like his parents, his mom,

Might be in the ladies room with one of the victim's mothers. Or even the surviving roommate. Right. Yeah. I know. It's weird to think about. It's just so, ugh.

So he's saying I'm innocent. He's saying he's innocent. They've also now requested that the words sociopath and psychopath not be used during the trial, which because it's technically a medical diagnosis, they did agree to that. So they said he can be referred to as a murderer because that's what he's been charged with, but they can't use the other terms. They also have... What else is going on with that? They...

Are bringing in his autism diagnosis as a factor. Who's bringing it in? The defense is bringing it in to explain his social behavior. Why he's odd. Well, I think that's a good, I would use everything too. I think they're going to use everything they possibly can. Yeah. Socially awkward and this and that and strange or being obsessed or about one thing or another.

Just to put any kind of doubt, but it sounds like the physical evidence is what's going to seal the deal. The DNA is the biggest piece of actual physical evidence that they have. Everything else is pretty circumstantial. However, it's a lot of stuff that is circumstantial, like the phone pings, the car. One of the things, too, that people thought early on was that there was a particular target in the house. That was my personal opinion. It still is to this day. I think that...

One of the girls upstairs was the target, which I don't know. And wasn't that the girl, like, wasn't there, she worked at a Greek restaurant and he also frequented the Greek restaurant? Yeah. So there was speculation that that's how he first was, you know, became fixated or saw her and was exposed to her. Then there was talk of him following her on Instagram and things like that. But now experts have said that they've gone through all the digital and forensic information that there's no evidence.

digital connection to him or any of the victims which that of course doesn't mean anything right usually good serial killers or murderers in general wouldn't have a connection they would pick a random target in a lot of cases so i don't think that that necessarily means anything but they have scraped venmo history social media any sort of digital footprint where he could have had any connection to them and they're saying that there is no known connection

Yeah, but I do think that helps the defense because I think people always want to know why. Right, the motive. You know, if they believe that a man killed his wife, it's because he had a girlfriend that he wanted to live with.

She killed her husband because there was a $2 million insurance. Like people need, like the defense needs a reason why. And just to say, oh, he was fascinated with, you know, murder and killing. And I mean, look at us. I know. Well, like, I mean, we're fascinated with it. Does it mean that we're going to try it? Like, I mean, no, I'm just, I, you know, I like to always just kind of think like, well, you know, I,

I think the argument is that because he was a criminology student, that he studied it, he did that big thesis with convicted murderers, that he wanted to see if he could get away with it. And...

My belief is that he went into that house with the intention of killing one person, was surprised that the friend was in bed, came downstairs. I do too. She had her friend spend the night in a room. Yep. In bed with her. He goes downstairs. He didn't expect anybody else to be awake. Zanna was still awake. She was active on TikTok. She had ordered DoorDash.

I think that spooked him. He was kind of then doing this, like, frenzy killing. And this is just my opinion. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But I don't think he went into that. If it was him, I don't think he went into that house expecting to kill four people that night. So do you think he did know her then? I think... And targeted her? I think that maybe there's no digital connection, but I think that I believe he was targeting Maddie. It was not a random thing. Because he was... If you believe that it's him in the car, the car was...

Hadn't the car come around prior to that night? Yeah, for like a couple of months leading up to the murders, it had gone around, I think, 23 times in total. It had pinged in the area between the hours of like 10 and 1 or something like that. And then the morning of the murders, it came in, kind of went in through the back roads and that like they had been in that area before. I mean, also a common offense in this is always going to be.

you know, this town needed to find someone because otherwise they are going to be walking on eggshells and scared. And so they, you know, their marching orders were to find somebody. I believe he did it as well. Like, I feel like that, you know, but those are all the things that we're probably going to hear from the defense. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay. Lori Vallow.

World's Worst Mother. So she was representing herself in the crime of her husband who was shot and killed when he came to pick up his children for an exchange. So it was her ex-husband and he was shot and killed by the brother who claimed that he had hit him with a baseball bat, though there was like barely a scratch on his head and a baseball bat would have probably possibly killed you.

So she is in Arizona and decides, because that's where the crime was, she's going to represent herself. Which, when I talked about this briefly before, I was like...

You know what? I kind of can't blame her. No, it's like a field trip. Right. And it's like you're already, she's sentenced to life, right? So, fine. What do you have to lose? Yeah. And so what did, so I, she, she did, they did reach a verdict. Yes. How short was the deliberation? I think three hours. And it's also because they had like a mandated lunch break, I think. So I think it was like, it was pretty quick.

I don't think there was a doubt in anybody's mind that she was guilty. And so what did you gather from this? I mean, I didn't really watch it, but people are like, Heather, you have to watch it. It's like she's playing a lawyer. The questions are so bizarre. She is such a fucking loony tune. Like watching it, it's...

it would be comical if it wasn't so offensive. - People were dead, yeah. - Right. But yeah, when one of the women who Charles, her former husband, had gone on a date with, when she took the stand, Lori was cross-examining her, asking her questions like, "So you guys were on a date and just talking about me the whole time?" She was more concerned with things like that. Even when a family member took the stand, she's like,

well, you remember all of the green enchiladas that I made for all the family gatherings? Like, it's just so detached from reality of what's happening. And she got, she, you know, had her lawyer speak. Like, she knew some vocabulary to throw out there, but she was not good and didn't even do a closing argument.

I mean, you know, obviously it's never a good idea. Like I was even thinking like, will Brian from Idaho murder crime, the suspect, will he take the stand? And it always seems like they rarely ever want their client to take the stand because they could cross examine and everything. But I always think as a, as, as a juror or whatever, or I always think if I was Karen Reed, if I was, but the thing with the Karen Reed case is like,

Because there was this fogginess, it's like, okay, let's say my husband, I woke up and my husband was dead next to me or whatever. And they were like, Heather poisoned him or something. Who knows? And I know I didn't. I know I didn't. I know we were getting along. And I was on trial. I would want to go on the stand and be like, I did not do this. I want to shout it from the rooftops. Of course, you got it.

believe your attorneys to say it might be better that you don't. Right. But I always think that's like such a weird thing because if you

If you have conviction in it, why not take the stand? I think it's because if there's a very talented opposing attorney, it's like they can just eviscerate you. They can twist you up. Yeah. And it can go real poorly. And then also you can – because you're so emphatic, you can look insensitive or your tears could be fake or there's all these things that you could also – someone could also pick apart. But with her, I mean, this story was just –

So I could see why she was like, but she, did she ever take the stand on herself? She didn't. And she doubled down. She still is doubling down with her story that she didn't do it. In the most recent Dateline interview, she tried to blame JJ's death on Tylee, her daughter. She's just sick. She said that maybe Tylee did it. She did? Yeah. To the little boy? Mm-hmm.

Which is like, just let your daughter rest in peace. Like, now you're trying to just like destroy her memory and her legacy. She's awful. And a friend of mine was actually covering this trial the entire time it was happening. And I was talking with her this morning a little bit. And she said that the jurors yesterday, once the verdict was announced, they didn't know about Tylee. They didn't know about JJ. They didn't know about Chad's wife, Tammy, Daryl.

Because none of that was introduced in this because it's something completely separate. So they would then found out after the trial had concluded that she had been convicted of killing her kids and that Tammy was dead as well. And she said that the jurors were so shaken up that one of them was physically shaking, which you can imagine at that point, they're all going home researching the case, like getting caught up with it. Right. But...

But that had to be very jarring to learn all that. And then if I was thinking when I heard that, I was like, if I was on the jury, even if I found her guilty, then hearing that after the fact, I would probably have such a pit in my stomach being like, thank God we got it right. Can you imagine if we like let this person go or had found her not guilty and you learn all of these other things after the fact? It's just such a heavy responsibility.

In your opinion, how soon if she doesn't already have some male pen pals writing her? Oh, I'm sure she already does. I have some juicy scoop for you. Give it to me. So a girl who used to work for me, OK, in the true crime circuit who went to these trials, I found out that she has been messaging with Lori, putting money on her books.

pretending to be a Mormon herself, that she's like relating to her on all sorts of level. I had, I sent her to the first Lori trial.

And I never knew any of this. And I just found this out maybe two weeks ago. I was so sick to my stomach. Like I couldn't sleep. I was like, because she was started messaging her while she was covering the first trial. And so I don't know if it was like she was fangirling over her or became so fixated. She didn't realize like this is real life. She's not a celebrity because you know how people are like obsessed with Chris Watson stuff too. Right. But full on started like

pen pal relationship with her. So wait, this girl was working for you like with research and stuff? And so how did you, did you, had you already let her go before you found this out? She left, yeah, she left and works with another, with a different news company. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Do you think it could be like a lesbian thing? No, no. I think it's more of a fangirl type situation. And just wanting to get close? Yeah. And just being the one that's like, I'm the closest to this woman. But she's not sharing it with anybody. That's what's so bizarre. She never told me that they were in contact. And this started while she was still working for me. So how do you message someone? They have prison portals where it's almost like email.

Oh, but she didn't, but not to your knowledge, has she gone to visit in person? Not to my knowledge. And then she gives her money for like the noodles or whatever. Yeah. And, but, and like created a whole fictitious backstory of her own upbringing. She was, she's not Mormon. She said she like did all this research trying to relate. Yeah. And just bizarre. So bizarre. And she was at this trial covering it too for the new company that she works for, which I'm like, do you have any integrity? Like, no. And,

Yeah, it goes so beyond that, too, because she has advocated to be an ally for the two kids that she has talked with some of the survive, like the family members, Kay and Larry and the grandparents of the grandparents. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. I think I said survivors. Meanwhile, she's messaging Lori and befriending her. It's so sick.

It makes me sick. I do think there's a lot of fangirling, fangotting, you know, with it. Why women, you know, marry the Menendez brothers and things like that. Okay, where do you land on the Menendez? Where are we now with the Menendez brothers and resentencing hearings and all of this? So I believe they had a hearing last week and now the next one is pushed to May to where they will be resentenced. Well, May is right around the corner. Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah. Come on. Hey.

Yeah. So that's going to happen in May. I think that they'll be out. And to your point, they'll probably start a podcast. But I think they'll be out. I feel like now it's like so much time has been served that...

I don't know whether you stand on the fact of they should have been incarcerated this entire time, that they're guilty, that they did this because they wanted the money, or if you're on the opposite side, that they were abused. I don't think they're a threat to the public at this point, so I think they probably will be resentenced and released. That's my guess. Yeah, and they'll get a lot of tail. Mm-hmm.

And I don't think either of, well, maybe Eric will stick with his wife that he's had. It's Lyle who had Anna Menendez who found out he was cheating on her. Then he got another wife who then she found out he's cheating with the young English girl. Oh.

I didn't know that. And now Rosie O'Donnell says she's in love with Lyle. What? Yeah. Isn't Rosie O'Donnell a lesbian? Well, she just says she loves him. Oh. Like an auntie or whatever. Like the way she loved Tom Cruise back when she was acting like she was straight. I think what they should do, aside from a podcast, is like The Gap should hit them up and they should do like a sweater campaign. They should... There's so many things they could do. Bring back the retro. Even like Rolex, they could do a thing. They're gonna... It's gonna be weird because...

they're going to probably try to be classy when they first get out, but they shouldn't. No, they should just milk it. They should just tap. They should just make their money. Tap on the frenzy when it is because if you wait too long, people get over it. Well, you guys, look, the show has already gone a long time, but of course we talked more and we got in, gotten deeper to the Menendez brothers. We covered Scott Peterson. We got into Gypsy Rose and Gretchen.

Gypsy Rose Blanchard and also a crime I was unfamiliar with. We kept going and I was like, you know what? This really is too juicy. We are going to put it on the Patreon under the Triple Scoop, which is Juicy Crimes. So if you're part of that, you're going to hear that as well. If you're curious about Patreon, you haven't joined, change your life. Go to HeatherMcDawn.net and

and join and you'll get that the rest of this episode as well as my Friday episode this weekend. So don't miss out. Thank you so much. Love you. Bye. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest, all because someone committed a crime in your name. It sounds like a nightmare, but

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