Bob Costas: A Stat that Tells a Story
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Hey, Rob. Yes. There used to be a really cool sports game show called Sports Challenge that Dick Enberg hosted. And it would be like a group of all-time Yankees against all-time Celtics. The mystery guest would be in silhouette. And Enberg begins reading the clues.

This triple crown winner. And Billy Martin goes ding, ding, ding, ding. Secretariat. It's a silhouette of a human being. He's going to walk out from backstage. Hey, everybody. It's your trusty host, Robbie. Robbie Lowe. Rollo, as some people call me on literally Bob Costas today.

Um, I love the guy for a lot of reasons. One is, um, I love sports and he's one of the most, you know, he's been there, done that, seen it, forgotten more about sports than, than I'll ever know. And just a great storyteller. Look, I, you know, my, my, my first book I wrote story is only tell my friends. I love stories. I'm an aficionado of stories and he puts me to shame, not just on sports on everything.

This is one of the masters at work. Let's get some stories from Bobby C. Thanks for coming on my humble little program. I always get a little nervous when I have professional broadcasters on. Well, I know you had Oprah on and you got through that pretty well. You know what? And it's funny. Halfway through the interview, I was like,

Wow, she's really good. It's like when you go and watch when I would watch Michael Jordan or somebody play, you were like, OK, I get it. It's Michael. I get the hype. And then you see them in the flesh and see what they do. And you go, oh, yeah. But there's also a thing you can't define, but you know it when you see it and you feel it. Skill is one thing. Presence is another.

There are people of equal skill and not necessarily equal presence. Oprah has both. She was awesome. So I'm glad you liked the conversation. Yeah. I hold up my end. What about me? Did I hold up my end? Yes. Did I? Yes, you did. One of the things you didn't fall victim to was, oh,

Oh my gosh, I'm with Oprah. I mean, it was sort of stated early on and then you just fell into it. Of course, she makes it easy to do that. The thing that comes to mind for me when I was doing the late night show after Letterman on NBC from late 80s to the mid 90s, about two years into the show, maybe three, Paul McCartney was a guest. And at that time, he had not done an American television interview in about a decade.

everyone's more accessible now and they could show up anywhere, access Hollywood or whatever. So it's Paul McCartney. And normally we tape several shows in a day, but he was the only guest that day. There had to be some extra security, only a decade or so removed from John Lennon having been murdered. And in he comes. And all I can think about at that point, I'm a 38, 39 years old, but all I can think about is being 11 and,

and sitting on the carpet in my parents' living room, watching Paul McCartney and the Beatles on a black and white TV set debut on Ed Sullivan. And then thinking, I wonder how many of the people I went to high school with are gonna be watching this. And I better not screw it up. But just like I'm assuming Oprah with you, he was so disarmingly, not just nice, but natural, that after the first couple of questions,

It was just like I'm talking to you now. And I think somebody like that, they can't do everything they're asked to do. But if they commit to something, they're going to commit all in. They're not just going to blow it off. So he was certainly there for me. And people still tell me that it's one of the best Paul McCartney interviews they ever saw. But I give him more of the credit than me. Well, he's also one of the great guys, as you know. I mean, he's- Terrific guy. I can't think of anyone I've ever come across-

Who had who's more famous, more successful with a longer lasting legacy and humble and nice. Yes. All in the equation than Paul McCartney. And it's not even close. Like I literally can't even think of number two. Yeah. I'd put him at the top. Here's the other thing I'm always struck by. The Beatles going on at Sullivan. Right. And it changed so many people's lives who watch it. Here's my takeaway. Little kids in those days were not allowed to sit in chairs. Right.

or sofas. Because

Every iteration of that story I've ever heard was I was sitting on the floor in front of the television. I don't care who's telling the story. I mean, didn't you not have chairs? Like, it's like, I remember being Bruce Springsteen. I remember being on the sitting on the floor in front of the TV. I'm like, he's sitting on the floor. You're sitting on the floor. No, everybody sit on the floor. Couple of reasons. Your parents and maybe your older siblings, although I didn't have older siblings, I was the eldest of two.

they're on the sofa. You're a little kid, you're on the floor. But also remember, no one had remote control then. And so my dad would say, Bobby, fix the vertical hold, which no kid today even understands. But every now and then, the thing would just start to roll and you'd have to like fiddle with that. And if you wanted to change the channel, which we certainly wouldn't have done when the Beatles were on, but ordinarily, if you want to change the channel, somebody's got to manually change the channel. So that was my chore as a kid. Isn't it amazing that you've

lived your life in television and, and the, and you can remember when it was still a new kind of new thing. And, and, and now television once again is doesn't resemble anything like, Oh no. You know what we grew up with as kids or even what it was five, 10 years ago. Yeah. Look, a primetime show in the nineties, forget about in the fifties when you only had three opportunities or three opportunities

channels to choose from. And everyone watched I Love Lucy or they watched Milton Berle on Tuesday night, so much so that he came to be known as Mr. Tuesday night. But even in the 90s, hit shows, ER, Cosby, Seinfeld, Friends, whatever is the equivalent in terms of critical esteem or buzz in

Now that show is getting a tiny fraction of the audience that watch Seinfeld on a regular basis every Thursday night. And one of the differences when people ask me about LeBron and Michael Jordan,

I've always felt they may be equally excellent. You can make the case and it's all who you grew up with. You know, I grew up with Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays here in studio 24 seven for the baseball network. And that always has a greater impact on you than what comes along later. So I realized people who are 30 years old, they're about Kobe. They're about LeBron, but they're,

The cultural conversation around Michael Jordan was unlike anything that preceded or followed. Little old ladies from Omaha who didn't know a pick and roll from a three pointer would say, I'm watching Michael Jordan tonight. No, Mildred, I can't meet you for dinner tonight. I'm watching Michael Jordan. That was that was the effect that he and the Chicago Bulls had in the 90s and all those games.

Forgive my bias. All those games were on NBC. So the promos were on Seinfeld. The promos were on Johnny Carson and David Letterman and the Today Show. It was just more central to the culture. Now it's more of a niche. The NBA on NBC theme. John Tesh. It's John Tesh. Yeah. Might be my when I hear that, that's basketball to me. Still, I don't think NBC has been in the NBA business in years. But when I hear that theme, it's it's time to go.

Fucking go. The last year we had it was 2002. And you probably remember because I know you're a sports fan. We always, especially in the latter rounds of the playoffs, the conference finals, the semifinals, we

We opened it with dramatic, brilliantly produced videos that give people goosebumps even now when they track them down on YouTube. Oh, yeah. And then whenever I concluded the narration of that, game seven, next, boom. And the NBC Peacock fanned out. And that was basketball. 100%. And I always, you know, I have kids who...

are sports fans now. And obviously, they're my kids, so they're way, you know, we come from different generations, obviously. And we argue about

you know, who was better, you know, is it, is it Kobe or Michael or, you know, where does LeBron fit in, in all of that? And, and, uh, you know, it's funny. I, I, for whatever reason, you know, I was at Laker season ticket holder, traveled with the team, you know, saw everything. Uh, I mean, you don't, it was me and Jack were the guys. I mean, I was, you know, I couldn't hold Jack Nicholson's jockstrap, but I, you know,

He was up at number one and somewhere way down in the Parthenon was me, but it was the two of us as the super fans. And do you know, Bob, I haven't watched an NBA game probably in three years.

I watch NBA games now. I watched the Clippers and the Jazz last night, and I watched the Bucks and the Nets. But A, I'm not involved, so I don't have to know everything like I used to. And it's more of a casual interest as opposed to even before the NBA was on NBC. In the 70s and the 80s, when the games were on CBS and it was Bird and Magic, I was really into it then. But, you know, different stages of our lives. Since you bring it up, since it's basketball, I'll tell you a Jack Nicholson story.

He's filming Hoffa in Chicago.

in 1992. And the Bulls are playing the Trailblazers in the NBA finals. So after a day of shooting as Jimmy Hoffa, naturally super fan that he is, he comes to the game at Chicago Stadium, one of the finals games. And he's sitting not near center court like the Lakers. He's at one of the baselines behind one of the baskets. And we spot him. And the producer says, Bob, do you know Jack Nicholson? Well, a little bit. Go down and ask him if he'll be on with us at halftime.

I say, you don't know. This is a fool's errand. He wouldn't go on with Johnny Carson when Carson had just wrapped up his Tonight Show run like a month or two before that. He wouldn't even go on with Johnny Carson. Jack has this old school thing.

You don't, you see me on a big screen. I'm a movie star. Maybe you see me sitting courtside at a Laker game, but I'm not going to go on that small screen and break that whole relationship into something smaller. And the producer insists, he says, you got to go down. You owe it to us. All right. The creaky old Chicago stadium. I'm up in the mezzanine. I'm walking down over the catwalks and I get behind Jack and

And I'm standing there. I wait for a timeout, four minutes to go in the second quarter. I come up behind him and I tap him on the shoulder and his head turns around. And I swear to God, it's like the look on his face and the shining comes around like this. And then he realizes it. I wish I could do a better Jack Nichols. And he goes, oh, hi, Bob. And I say, Jack.

Just play along. They're watching. I'm supposed to ask you if you'll come on with me at halftime. And this is what he says verbatim. Bobby, Bobby, you're a nice kid. You do good work.

How can I put this nicely? No fucking way. Got it, Jack. I'll relay the message. Enjoy the rest of the game. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so other than your calls of things, let's do top calls of all time. I think I know what number one is for me. What do you think? Not necessarily in order, but you can't put anything ahead of Al Michaels in 1980 at Lake Placid.

Do you believe in miracles? Yes. It has to be, right? Yeah. A couple of things about that. It's obviously the right thing to say. It's not so much a description as it is a caption. It's just a caption about the feeling. But that's the rare sports event where virtually everybody in your audience, his audience is an American audience, is rooting for the same team. That's a good point. Super Bowl, World Series. You know, local announcers assume that

Everyone's rooting for the Lakers. Chick Hearn assumed his audience were rooting for the Lakers. But Marv Albert couldn't assume they were rooting for the Lakers, that they were playing the Bulls. It's a national audience. But then in 1980, everybody is of the same mind, not only rooting for the Americans, but saying, can you believe this? This is literally as if Rocky had actually beaten Apollo Creed. This is incredible. You're so right. I'd never thought of that element of it. I've honestly, to this day, never thought of it the element of

the freedom it gives someone calling a game when you know everybody's rooting for the same team. Delivering a line is one thing, but the timing, the little spaces, that distinguishes excellent craftsmanship

from greatness. So Al could have said, do you believe in miracles? Yes. When the horn sounded, but the puck had been cleared out to the set to centerize. There was no chance then that the Russians could recover it and score. So now it's like five seconds to go.

He says five seconds. Do you believe in miracles? Yes. And the yes almost exactly coincides with all the American players thrusting their sticks in the air. It's almost like the sticks are the exclamation point at the end of yes. And then he's able to stop and the celebration starts. If he had done that 10 seconds before or 10 seconds later, it wouldn't have had the same effect. Would it still have been good? Yes. Would it have been as great? No. And it's funny beyond that, I think it becomes interesting.

I don't think there's probably a consensus on great calls. Do you? I think it's just individual taste. I heard a, yeah, I just happened to be perusing a game about six or seven years ago, an NBA game and heard Marv Albert live with one of the great calls I've ever heard. And it was just simply LeBron James in, as they say, beast mode, uh,

Grabbed the ball, ran down the court, practically barreled over people and tomahawked at it. The call was LeBron James with no regard for human life. You sure that wasn't Kevin Harlan?

Might have been Kevin Harlan, who is so entertaining to listen to because he's always up there. But it's authentic. Maybe it was Kevin Harlan. Maybe maybe it was. I don't want to give credit where credit is due. But LeBron James with no regard for human life. I just that's pretty great.

Fantastic, right? Well, you know, you could pick a zillion Vin Scully calls. The Kirk Gibson home run. After all the tumult subsides, it's on television, not radio. So he lets more than a minute go by of just the pandemonium. And then the perfect caption and postscript. In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened. How great is that? I was there. So was I. You've got to witness so many things.

Yeah. So many great things. I, one of the things I, I got to sit after Vin and he's probably, you know, I mean, there's a, there've been a lot, but he's, he's gotta be up at the top of great broadcasters. I got to sit with him during a world series game the year he retired. So this is without a doubt, the first Dodger world series he's ever not broadcast. Yes. And he's sitting right next to me. And, um,

And somehow it was the year where they were expanding the netting around down the down the foul lines in baseball. And there was a debate of whether they were going to do it was going to ruin the sight lines. And that was kind of a thing people were talking about. And somebody next to me said, you know, somebody who's killed the Dodger Stadium years ago by a line drive. And I was like, oh, they were not. And yes, they were. No, not that. Holy shit. I've got Vince Scully sitting right next to me. That's Vin.

And it was like magic. I turned to Vin. I said, was anybody ever hit with a line driving killed in Dodger Stadium? And he thought for a minute. And Bob, it was like the radio turned on. It literally was. It was like it was a twilight doubleheader in Dodger Stadium. And a young fan had come from Anaheim. The poor child went down and was carried out to a standing ovation. He died on the way to Anaheim.

Vin had every club in the bag, if we can mix metaphors sport to sport. His command of language is incredible. His sense of the moment, also phenomenal, as witnessed the Gibson call, Sandy Koufax's perfect game, and so many other moments. But even the stuff that was otherwise pedestrian, because of his distinctive voice and distinctive rhythms, even if he was saying something that was not remarkable,

It still was wonderful. It still was more engaging. If he just said foul back to the screen two and two, it sounded different than any of the rest of us. Did Harry Carey drink in the booth or did he just sound like he was drunk in the booth? No, no, he drank. He drank in the booth. Definitely. That's no one could sell Budweiser better than Harry because he authentically enjoyed the product. It's so good. Those were the days. Can you imagine?

I've, I told this story once on, on Conan O'Brien. This is Harry sometime in the nineties and he's already grandfathered in as a legend. Yeah. And people who only know him as the Cubs announcer, because the Cubs were on a superstation. So it was seen all over the world or all over the country at least. Uh,

He was really at his best when he was the Cardinals radio announcer, because then he was just as bombastic and charismatic, but he was totally sharp. So all the craftsmanship was there. Toward the end, he's just a bombastic and lovable character. And that was more than good enough because it was so entertaining. Okay, the Cubs are in a bad stretch. There's a pop into shallow center.

In comes the center fielder. Out goes the shortstop, Jose Vizcaino. Either can catch it. They look each other off. It drops. And Harry turns to Steve Stone and says, Steve, here's what I want to know. How does a guy from Mexico lose a ball in the sun?

Now, can you imagine if somebody says that today and they aren't Harry Carey? Oh, there's no way. And here's the best part. This guy, you know, was from the Dominican Republic. Harry was a little mixed up. Yeah, he couldn't. What what do you feel about the shift in baseball? Do you hate it as much as I know? I don't hate the shift. I hate that people don't bunt to get on every single time.

Yeah, you've got a whole generation of hitters who have not been taught to just make contact go the other way. I'm not saying it's easy to go the other way. We're not hitting fungos here. You go up against major league pitching, which has never been more difficult to hit. But laying down a bunt, there's almost no one that could even lay down a sacrifice bunt anymore, let alone bunt for a hit. But what the shift does is.

People focus on, you know, a hard hit ball that somebody fields in shallow right field. It's especially tough on left-handed pull hitters. Those who can't run to, I don't know how many hits it took away from David Ortiz toward the end of his career, but also balls hit up the middle, which for a hundred years, a ball hit directly over second base is into center field for a base hit that now that's being gobbled up. And it's one of the many factors that are contributing to less baseball action. If,

If you were the commissioner of baseball and the two names that you always hear people talk about, they should be the commissioners. You always say Condoleezza Rice should be the commissioner of the NFL and Costas should be the commissioner of baseball. You're in very good company. In your first day of office, what executive orders are you signing? If only you could just sign executive orders, but everything's got to go through the players association, contentious relationship, lack of trust. But if I could just snap my fingers, the two things I would do,

maybe three. I doubt loss shifts. Baseball's not like every other sport, and you have to be careful about comparing it because the nature of baseball is different. But for the purposes of this, in other sports, the NBA can move the three-point line in or back. The NFL changed its rules. It's a different game than it used to be. The NBA didn't used to allow zone defenses, and now they do. All those things can change over time. So,

There are formations you're not allowed in football. You're not allowed to be in the lane for more than three seconds in the NBA. So why not say you have to have at least two fielders on either side of second base? Now, that means that the shortstop's left instep is on the second base bag. He's still on that side of second base. That would eliminate the shifts and the detrimental effect it has on action and scoring. And I would put in a 20-second pitch clock

with nobody on base. You can't do it with runners on base, but with nobody on base, I'd put in a 20-second pitch clock. But they have the clock and nobody enforces it. Yeah, they don't. And it's not really an official rule. It's kind of a thing that the umpires can call upon. But it ought to be, hey, if the pitcher's ready to go and you're standing outside the box adjusting your batting glove when you just took ball one, we're going to call a strike. You got to be ready to go. I would do that. And I also think they ought to consider

limiting the number of pitchers on the roster. It's almost inevitable that they're going to go to a universal DH, which I don't like because I like the strategy and the difference. But American League managers and front officers are concerned now about their pitchers who aren't used to

hitting, hitting in interleague games and getting hurt at the plate or hurt running the bases or whatever. So if the DH becomes universal, then you have less need for bench players, fewer pinch hitters. And now you add even more pitchers, which adds to the parade of pitchers coming out of the bullpen. I would limit the number of pitchers allowed to maybe 11, max 12,

So then that wouldn't prevent managers from bringing in multiple pitchers in a game, but they'd be hesitant to do it as often as they do. I vote for all of those things. But I'm surprised you didn't go right at outlawing the DH. I guess you feel like it's inevitable. Yeah, I think it's inevitable, unfortunately. I didn't mind the DH. Don't mind it so much. I like the differences. I don't want...

hitting and all the strategy that comes into play because of that. I don't want that to disappear. And I always think it's interesting in the World Series when you have to play under the home team's rules. And so now an American League team has to figure out what to do. National League team has to decide, you know, what am I going to do with this guy? Who am I going to use as a DH? Maybe an American League team has to play a guy who's normally their DH in left field or something. And that's a defensive liability. The strategic aspects of it are interesting to

Yeah, I love when in the national league guy, you know, when you've got a pitcher is doing fine, not lighting it up, but doing fine. And your offense is dead. And now you got it. You got a runner in scoring position and the pitchers up. OK, so what are you betting on scoring here or, you know, and I love that. I love that moment. I love it every time it comes up. Yeah. Hold the thought. We'll be right back.

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. What do you make of the substances on the ball, the pitchers with the grip stuff that's people clearly everybody, I mean, no one, everybody acknowledges.

Everybody knows Mike Schilt, the Cardinal manager said, Hey, the problem here, I don't have a problem with my guy being sanctioned in some way, but we've got to apply this across the board. And that's what everyone's looking for. I mean, I I'm, I'm friendly with a bunch of guys in the league and, and they're all saying the same thing is like they're doing it and they'll perfectly happy to stop doing it, but they want to make sure if they stop, everybody stops. Everybody's got to stop. Right. You can't unilaterally disarm guys. Um,

Through technology and different training techniques, guys can throw harder than ever before. But if you add previously unseen spin rates to that kind of velocity, man, it's tough to be a hitter now. And last time I checked, the overall Major League average

It's literally insane. I look at guys who are stars and they're hitting 260 yards.

Yeah. It's, it's interesting to watch sports like anything in our, in our world, phones, sports, entertainment, news, television, everything's changing so rapidly because baseball is a game of, of inches. It, it changes via an inch, but it's still, it's a, it's a completely different way. I didn't wreck. I hadn't, I got, I really fell back in love with baseball. Um, when I, when my kids came to a certain age, um,

Um, and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw a shift. I couldn't believe it. I could not believe my eyes and I can't believe my eyes now with the way the guys swing that they all want to elevate the ball. Do you remember when we used to talk about Charlie Lau, the Charlie Lau school of hitting? Do you remember that? Yeah, that was the George Brett Wade Boggs approached and others influenced by Charlie Lau, which was hitting down on the ball.

Yeah. This whole thing was it. And now everybody's hitting up on the ball. Well, part of the reason is that that's the way you get the ball over the shift. You can't hit it through the shift. You try to elevate it. But also analytics have told the front office, just like NBA analytics say, you're better off taking a bunch of three pointers. Yep. If you can make a reasonable percentage of them. And that's changed the way NBA games look and and feel. Yeah.

there's no disincentive to striking out anymore. As long as you get your share of walks and as long as you hit your share of home runs, it's not going to cost you in your salary. It's not going to cost you when you're standing in the lineup. Front officers have figured out

If we score five runs on six hits, but three of those six hits are home runs and we mix some walks in there, we don't care who's spraying a single to left field. And in fact, they've calculated that it's difficult, not impossible, difficult to string three singles together to score a run.

You know, so swing for the fences. If you go one for five, but that one is a home run, we're good. I know it's, it's amazing. I mean, you've succinctly described the difference in the game and it's, you know, it's like, is it better? Is it not better? I, you know, I still love it. I think it's,

I do think the umpires are doing a very good job this year of figuring out a way to lose their jobs to robot umpires behind home plate. I've never seen. And part of it is we have that analytic. By the way, I always thought it was fake. And I first saw it, I guess, at the U.S. Open in tennis or Wimbledon where there'd be a line and they'd be out and then they would do that weird thing. I thought that was made up. I thought that was some graphic that a guy in a truck came up with. I didn't realize it was actually fake.

Real.

And now we have it in baseball where you see the pitch come in and they have a 3D strike zone. You see it nick the corner. These guys are getting it wrong a lot this year. And I think it's, I think robot up behind home plate is going to be inevitable. What about you? You think? Yeah, it seems inevitable. It'll take a little bit of the human element out of the game. And there may be unintended consequences that are too complicated to get into now. And there are still some old time guys who say, look,

The strike box, the tracking, it's kind of accurate, but is it where the ball crosses the plate? Is it where the catcher catches it and frames it? Is the batter in an exaggerated crouch? Is his strike zone really exactly what the box says it is? Or is that one size fits all? You know, I keep hearing from guys who,

who are old timers, I guess by now in their sixties and seventies, um, it's not three dimensional. They just feel that it, that it doesn't, that what they're seeing doesn't capture the reality of being pitcher, catcher and hitter. Interesting. Um, what is your favorite thing that you have

called? Is it the Olympics? You know, the Olympics is a different animal than anything in not just in sports broadcasting, but broadcasting overall. Yes, it's a sports event and a far flung sports competition with zillions of events. But it's also, you know, a cultural panorama. It's a travel log. Some hardcore fans are

are upset with the backstories that ABC always did and now NBC does. But the truth is that most Americans don't pay any attention to the vast majority of Olympic sports, except during that two or three week period. Once every couple of years or every four years, we were just talking about winter and summer. And so you have to give them a reason to care.

one way or another. Either they're emotionally invested to the point of tears, or they just say, "Oh yeah, that's interesting." And so, "Oh, that's what this person's trying to do, or that's what the backstory is." You don't have to, if you're calling the Super Bowl, you don't have to explain to the audience who Peyton Manning is or Tom Brady is. You just update them on the statistics. But

But with the Olympics, even the greats, Michael Phelps, Simone Biles, Usain Bolt, they're more or less out of sight, out of mind until that quadrennial comes around. So it's a whole different thing. And I always felt that the host had to be a good generalist.

You don't have to be an expert on every single sport. It's impossible anyway. You don't have to memorize every platform diver from Peru. It's just not possible. But you have to have a good view of Olympic history. You have to know a lot about the home city and host city and host nation. And you have to know about the two dozen or so stories that are likely to be part of primetime. And then when something pops up unexpectedly and it's worthy of attention, you have to have that knack

of being able to take a briefing very quickly, figure out not just the facts, but how does this fit into some kind of narrative so I can tell a coherent story concisely. And if you have those abilities, then you can be a good Olympic host, but it's so different from anything else. The two sports I've enjoyed calling in the traditional way most are baseball and basketball. Those are my two favorites. Chick Hearn used to do a – did you know that he used to do a warm-up? Did you ever hear this, that he would –

Like a voice warm-up? It's one of the things I know to be true, even though I can't remember who told it. But he used to do a fake double dive down the middle, Magic Johnson with a turn to the right. Like, he would do that before, to warm his... It makes sense. I mean, when I would go on stage, you know, I do just to get your mouth moving. And after he's done eight zillion games, does he have to remind himself what his calls are? I mean, that's the other thing, is I feel like

There's a lot of guys now. I think it's because there's so many outlets. It used to be three networks. Now you have multiple. I mean, there's five billion people calling everything and not everybody can be a star, obviously. But boy, oh boy, there's some boring booths. Holy Toledo.

Stats will always matter in sports. But what I always say to the researchers and the producers is don't give me a stat that doesn't connect to a larger point. I don't want to hear on some highlight show that Joe Blow is the first angel to hit for the cycle since 2019.

Well, isn't that remarkable? How often does someone hit for a cycle? And they only played 60 games last year. Yes. Or somebody is hitting 412 during his seven game hitting streak. What the hell does that prove? But if you tell me that the overall league strikeout rate

The average pitcher, the overall league strikeout rate is now roughly equal to Nolan Ryan's career strikeout rate. Wow. Right around 25% of all batters faced. That's a stat that tells a story. And how is it that Vin Scully, Red Barber, Mel Allen, Jack Buck, Ernie Harwell, Harry Carey, and all the best announcers today, John Miller with the Giants, whoever you want to mention, they somehow got by without stat cast.

They just told you the story of the game. They told you how the weather was, what it felt to be like at the ballpark. And they were a font of anecdotes. And they had a sense of the moment and they could relate to what was happening and bounce ideas off the other guy in the booth. Scully worked alone, but the rest of them usually had partners involved.

especially in baseball, the announcers are companions. They're not just dispensers of information. They're companions. The game's supposed to roll out at a leisurely pace. So do you want analysis? Of course you do. But you want some color. Analysts used to be called color men. That's right. Because they brought some flavor and color to the game. And also in football, you really – I've noticed there's just no – there's very little –

I mean, Romo is blowing people's mind. Everybody loves it. That Romo. And when Romo came out, look, and I, I, I've gone from loving from Roma going, holy shit, this is the greatest thing ever to going, is this the greatest thing ever to, you know what I mean? But, but I love it. Here's what it is. It isn't boring. And that I love. And, and,

Look, I'm a huge Nance guy. I mean, Nance, but particularly for golf. I mean, Nance is the voice. He's like Keith Jackson was college football. I mean, and by the way, Keith Jackson to me means it's

I'm hungover. It's Saturday and I'm 20 years old. That's what Keith Jackson means. When I hear that voice, I can barely open my eyes to watch the game. And it was so comforting and amazing. Thank you, Keith Jackson. R.I.P. But what I'm getting at, he changed Nance like Nance is a different dude in the booth now that he has to be there with Romo. It's kind of interesting. He seems like a guy going, well, like he doesn't know what he's like in the booth, like a wild animal.

Yeah. And you don't know what's coming at you at any given moment that keeps you nimble. Yeah. Jim is a tremendous craftsman and is so good at so many different things. So well prepared. I mean, checks every box. But the one thing that you would not have said about Jim until recently, whatever it

superlatives you'd apply, you wouldn't say he's zany. You wouldn't say he's irreverent. But between Romo and also the commercials around the final four, whereas with Samuel L. Jackson and Barkley and whatnot, he shows a different side. He's kind of self-mocking. And I think that's another plus for him. How great are Barkley and Shaq

And Kenny, I watched that before I watched the games. I'm not kidding. A lot of people do, especially if you're on the West Coast. So it's not yet that late or you're up late on the East Coast and some regular season game between the Trailblazers and the Clippers just ended. And now it's maybe one o'clock in the morning, but you're up.

You're you're glued to that more than you were to the game. They're so damn entertaining. That's the best studio show in the history of American TV sports. It's just great. Wow. Coming from you. That's it. And what is it? It's that they just so are who they are unapologetically. Isn't that the key? I think. Yeah. And also it's it's open ended. They can go for as long as they want within reason, especially after a late game. And they're on more than once a week.

And they've developed this relationship over time. And Barkley's presence is one of the few people on television that can say almost anything and get away with it. And once that is part of the mix, it has an effect on every other ingredient in the mix. I had Barkley on the show, on the podcast. He's the best. He's one of my favorite people on the planet. I don't know anybody who can be both beloved and

unilaterally and as controversial as Charles can be. Yeah. Same breath. I mean, he could say something. It'll trend on social media. Twitter will go nuts, et cetera. But the next day he doesn't have a mark on him. You know, it doesn't take him down. No, it doesn't even nick him, let alone take him down. What is the what's the best Olympics ever?

And in our memory, what's the it's got to be 80 because of Lake Placid, right? Yeah, 80 was incredible. Had that moment. What do you think about what do you what do you think about weird? Not weird. I think it's weird. But like surfing is going to be, I think, for the first year in the Summer Olympics. And I'm a huge surfer. I think that's that's great. I mean, there's other stuff that's come in that I'm like, what? Really? What? And like.

Like, there's a little bit like the X Games stuff, which I hated when it came in, but I've come to like it. Slope style, half pipe, all that stuff. Yeah, you know, they got pissed off. Some of these guys got pissed off at me, I guess, before the 2014 season.

And I'm on the Today Show and they start asking me about some of these events. And my remark was lighthearted and actually aimed at myself. My implication was, hey, I've aged out of some of this stuff. So I just said, you know, with some of this, I should just step aside and

and let Johnny Knoxville get in the host chair. I was implying that I don't quite get it as well as somebody else might. And I can't, I can't, I don't understand how this fits in alongside the classic Olympic events, but that's me. That's, you know, I grew up in the sixties and seventies. So that's me. It doesn't make me right. It just makes, that's what my affinities are. Yeah. I, the, the notion of you calling the half pipe, double flip, let me, right.

It's no Hamill Camel. I'll tell you that. Right. But, you know, Sean, Sean White was a cool guy. You know, Sean would come in with that shock of red hair and he'd come in after he'd won a medal. I liked him very much. When the best thing is like now, Sean White is like the elder statesman. Yeah. You know, they wheel him out now like like he's Willie Mays. By the way, I'm I'm not like some sports expert, but I think I have a passing knowledge of sports. Would you agree with that, Bob?

More than passing. So why is it that until last week, no one had, and I'm telling you, no one had ever articulated why Willie Mays was called the say, Hey kid, never. I just, obviously I've known you to say, Hey kid, since I was a little boy. Yeah. I forget what I was watching the other day. And finally someone said it. And this, and because I don't know, I'm sure a lot of people will know it's that he wasn't great with names. And his thing was, he would just say to everybody, say, Hey,

As opposed to, hey, Bob, hey, Robbie, say hey. And he became the say hey kid. I've been a baseball fan since 1976. No one's ever told me that story. Yeah. I remember hearing it when I was a kid. But then Willie was an active player. So there was more commentary going on around him. You know, Babe Ruth supposedly was like that, too. Couldn't remember anybody's name. And so we called him Keyed.

Kid guy, Kate, he'd hate heed or hate. Hey, pal. But, you know, we've all we've all had that experience. Oh, I'm terrible with names. Listen, I'm awful with names. I am bad with names. So I say it with no disrespect to anybody. I'm as bad as anybody. You know, I've generally through most of my life. It's tailing off a little bit as you get older, but I've generally been good. But.

People have to understand this. This is not a case of thinking that you, I or anybody else is more important than the next person. But there's a disadvantage. If we met somebody 10 years ago at a party, it's very likely that subsequent to that, they've seen us. They've been reminded of that. Now, here comes somebody at an airport or something and they begin the conversation with, hi, remember me?

Oh, my gosh. What are you going to do? Give me a fighting chance. Just say, hi, Joe Blow. And then we get to say, of course, Joe, good to see you again. That's the way that's the way it goes. And by the way, I do it all the time. If there are people who've met a lot of people in their lives, I'm always like, remember, it's me. Yeah, because, you know, we put that situation. You're like, absolutely.

Years ago, Billy Crystal got the Mark Twain Award. And so I was one of the people who spoke. Billy and I are friends, so they wanted me to take care of the baseball part. So we're gathered backstage and Whoopi Goldberg comes in and I say, Whoopi, Bob Costas. And she goes, no shit. OK. Yeah, that's the part you do set yourself up for that. By the way, the greatest story I've ever heard is.

Don King mistaking you for Michael J. Fox. Oh, yeah. I had known Don King and interviewed him several times. I'd known him for 20 years. Of course. I'd been to dinner with him. Of course you have. I'd interviewed him. The whole deal. Okay, but now he's, at this point, he's in his early 80s or whatever it is. It's five years ago at Muhammad Ali's. It's five? Okay, it's five years ago. Right, it's 2016. This is amazing. At...

Muhammad Ali's memorial service, which attracts such an audience that they have to hold it in the arena where the Louisville University team plays their basketball. And it was slow getting started. It started maybe 90 minutes after the supposed beginning as they got everybody seated. So a group of us, it was several groups just kind of in clusters talking.

And in walks Don King in full Don King regalia. He's wearing that Levi's jacket with the American flag. The hair is the classic Don King hair like he just stuck his finger in a light socket. And he's waving his little miniature American flag. And as he approaches our little cluster, he feels as if he has to make his presence known with a little capsule.

scouting report on each person. So he comes in, big smile on his face, and he goes, Mike Tyson, once the most feared man in the ring, Coach Pat Riley, straight off the pages of GQ, Sugar Ray Leonard, not a mark on him, still as beautiful as a child, Katie Couric, America's sweetheart. And then he turns to me and he goes, Michael J. Fox. Yeah.

And Katie says, Don, Don, it's Bob Costas. And he's so shameless, he goes, Bob Costas, greatest commentator in the world. And we'll be right back after this.

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Reese's. Peanut butter cups. That breathy one sounded very creepy, am I right? What would we call that? The thing where people, when they come up to a cluster, do that thing that you just described where they give you the snapshot. You know, Hanks does that. Tom Hanks does that. And that's his thing. He'll come up and go...

I was at a party and there's a lot of fans. He's like Arnold Schwarzenegger. There he is. There's the man. Austria's pride. There he comes. Youngblood's here. Still, still can fit in the skates. It's Dean Youngblood as I live and breathe. Rob Lowe. It was hilarious. It's so funny. He can fit into any situation. Tom Hanks, serious, frivolous, and anything in between. In fact, we want to close the loop.

We were talking about Scully earlier. Now you mentioned Hanks. Scully gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom, deservedly, the last time Obama presided over the ceremony. So it's late 2016. Venice finished his last year in the Dodger booth. And Obama and his colleagues just empty the bucket. Everybody's there. Michael Jordan, De Niro, Ellen DeGeneres, Cicely Tyson,

Robert Redford, Kareem, Bill Gates, they're all there. And now we're waiting outside the East Room. And Vin was nice enough to invite me to come to the ceremony. So I'm talking to Hanks and my back is turned to where Scully is in a corner and everyone's shoulder to shoulder, but something's happening behind me and Hanks can see it over my shoulder. So Hanks and I are talking and he goes, "Hey, what do you think this conversation's like?" And by themselves,

In the corner, deep in conversation, Springsteen and Scully. And Hank says, what do you think this conversation is like? And I said, well, Tom, I'll take a crack at it. You know, Bruce, I love greetings from Asbury Park, but you really hit it out of the park with darkness on the edge of town. Foul. Back to the screen. Two and two. Hank's liked it.

There's a famous tape the comedians share. Barry White having a meltdown, doing a public service announcement. There's Casey Kasem. You've heard that one, obviously. That's famous. There's also some baseball player telling a wildly sad story. Do you know this thing? It's wildly sad. And I think it's about somebody who's dying of an incurable disease, who's probably a child. And this baseball announcer drags it out way too long and

way throughout an inning. And it's full of things like, and that's when she knew she only had two and a half weeks to leave foul ball behind the plate. And the mother, and it's just the juxtaposition of the banality of a mother

boring baseball game against a tear-jerking, soppy story. It was so unintentionally hilarious. I can't believe I've never heard of this. Oh, and I've tried to find it again. I've heard it. I know I've heard it, and it's worse than you can imagine it.

It seems like a parody. That's my gift to you today. You have to figure out a way to find this thing. Well, you know, here are the things we're talking about being human and whatnot. The sort of thing that would bring the fires of hell to your door today. But any sensible person understanding the time and the context finds this interesting.

humorous and even endearing. So I'll take a crack at it. Sometime in the 60s or early 70s, the twins have a radio announcer named Halsey Hall. What a great name. Great name, right? Terrific pitcher for the twins. So he tells me the story. So there's a guy on second base and the batter singles to right.

The guy tries to score. They throw to the plate. The guy's safe. But now the batter is caught in a rundown between first and second. So the catcher throws to the shortstop, to the first baseman, back and forth, back and forth. And finally, they tag the guy out. And Halsey Hall says, you score that 9-2-6, 3-6, 3-6. Pauses for a second and says, and if a man answers, hang up. Now, how great is that? It's great.

The last thing I want to ask you about is how crazy do you think the Monday night football booth was with Cosell in the day? Because it comes back to they were getting lit in the booth, right? Lit. 100%. Yeah, I don't know that Keith Jackson, who did it for a year, or Gifford got lit.

Cosell definitely did. And Meredith, Meredith, I think, you know, imbibed a little, but he was never completely gone. You know, Howard, Howard did hit the bottle a little bit, especially as the years went by and supposedly, and there are people who confirm it and there are others who deny it. Supposedly one night in Philadelphia, he really got sloshed and puked on Meredith's cowboy boots, which must not have been terribly pleasant. Um,

But, you know, here's what Howard could do. Howard was simultaneously brilliant and a cartoon character. He had a tremendous intellect. He had a journalistic instinct. But he was also this bigger than life character. And he was willing to go there. There are other people that might have had similar skills, but they didn't combine it with whatever character.

pomposity and bombast it was that made him bigger than life. And that's what he was. You know, his voice was inseparable from some of the greatest moments. My personal favorite Howard Grosselle is when he used to call the Battle of the Network Stars.

And we've got Christy McNichol in the kayak and Melissa Gilbert from Little House on the Prairie is coming up on the outside. Here we are at Pepperdine Universe. It was like, it was like so good. The first time I met Cosell, 1983 World Series.

And I had just started doing baseball on NBC, and I'd done the league championship series with Tony Kubik, the American League Championship Series, which Baltimore won. So now Baltimore's playing Philadelphia in the World Series. I hop on the train from New York to Baltimore just to be at the game and hang around baseball. So I'm walking through the press box of the old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore before game one. And Cosell, who's doing the game with Al Michaels and Earl Weaver, who had retired the year before as the Orioles manager, there stands Howard Cosell.

An unusual looking man to begin with, with a cigar like half the size of a Louisville slugger, that hideous mustard yellow ABC jacket, toupee perched precariously atop his head. And he's standing in the doorway of the rickety old booth. And as I come down the hall, I approach him. I say, Mr. Cosell, my name is Bob Costas. It's a pleasure to meet you. And he goes, I know who you are.

You're the child who rhapsodizes about the infield fly rule. I'm sure you'll have a fine career. And he flicks a cigar ash, turns and walks back into the booth. And for a second, I'm thinking to myself, this is the biggest schmuck I've ever met. But in the next second, no, this is great. I got the full co-sell treatment. I love this. My night is complete even before the first pitch is thrown. Isn't it the best when a legend delivers?

On the very thing that you want them to deliver on like that. You meet Cosell. That's who you want Cosell to be. Totally. Bobby, this was great. I could talk all day with you. It's always a blast. Thanks, man. Love listening to you. I'll be following you on CNN and The New Job and HBO Max. That will be great. I can't wait to see what kind of stuff you guys cook up over there.

You know, at CNN, I'm a contributor, but I come back to HBO with a new show that starts on July 30th. We were to have started earlier, but COVID kind of pushed us back. And it'll just be a quarterly show most of the time, but we're going to put four in in the space of four months to get the four for 2021 in there, starting in July of this year. And it's called Back on the Record because I used to have a show on HBO about 15 years ago called On the Record. So it's basically the same show, just four times a year instead of 12.

Well, I will be, um, I'll be there with bells on for sure. Thanks, Rob. All right. Great talking to you. Appreciate you. Thanks so much. Take care, man. I could have talked to that guy forever, forever. I feel like he's one of those guests where now that the interview is over, I'm like, shoot, I should have asked him about this or, ah, I should ask him about Billy Martin and Reggie Jackson and they hating each other. And ah, damn it. Well, I'm going to have to have him back, have him back for more. I hope you guys had as much fun as I did. That was, uh,

Very, very satisfying on multiple levels, at least for me. And at the end of the day, I'm the only one I care about. Okay, so before we wrap up for the week, it is time. Yes, it is. I know you're ready. I know I am. It is time for the lowdown line. Hello, you've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-7000.

So have at it. Here's the beep.

hi Rob Lowe this is Karen from Houston Texas now everyone thinks that you never age I get that all the time but you looking into the mirror seeing your own flaws what tips would you tell 23 year old Rob about skin care for your face I was just curious I have children I try to tell them

They listen. They may not listen, but I would like to know what you think. Let me know. Literally. Well, Karen, thank you for listening and calling in. And because you asked, I felt the same thing raising my kids. And that's one of the reasons I started my own skincare line, which is called Profile. And you can get it online because I had people taking care of me since I was 18.

A young actor, you wake up in the morning, you go on the set and, you know, people start taking care of your skin, the makeup people do that. That's their job. And I have had people doing that for me since I was 15. Now I'm 57. And I really think that's made a big difference. And of course, what are they doing?

They are putting sunscreen on you. Number one, number one, number one, number one. What 15 year olds putting sunscreen on nobody. And we now know that those gnarly sunburns you get when you're a kid that we all used to get and laugh about or whatever, try to get putting Crisco on us or whatever to get tan. Those are what give you skin cancer later in life. So it's never too early to start taking care of your skin and, and, um,

That's one of the reasons why I was really trying to develop a SPF skincare protection moisturizer, which we do have in the line and it's great. So, yeah, your instinct is right. Get the kids investing in their skin now because once you start seeing the damage, it's too late. But thanks for listening. That was a really good question.

I will see you all next week for Literally right here. Don't forget to give us a review on Apple. I read them. I read those reviews. So tread lightly. My skin is very thin. I'm very sensitive to criticism. Anyway, see you next week. You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe. Produced and engineered by me, Devin Tory Bryant.

Executive produced by Rob Lowe for Lowe Profile. Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. And Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blairt. Talent producer, Jennifer Samples. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers, passport. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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