Clive Davis: Let's Proceed
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Hi, Clive. Well, hello there, Rob. Good to see you. It's so good to see you. I spent last night watching your documentary and I got so nervous knowing I was going to be talking to you that I had a hard time going to sleep. Well, we know each other long enough that there's nothing remotely to be nervous about. Welcome to a special edition of

Our special Grammy edition of Literally with Rob Lowe. This is the thing we're going to do from time to time where we give you a little special something, something, something when it warrants it. And if Grammy weekend doesn't warrant it, I don't know what does. And if you're talking about music and you're talking about the Grammys, there is nobody you would rather talk to than our guest today, Clive Davis, who is the man who signed this.

Think about it. He discovered and signed Janis Joplin, Bruce Springsteen, Santana, Billy Joel, Pink Floyd, Aerosmith, Aretha Franklin, Barry Manilow, Whitney Houston, Patti Smith, and along with L.A. Reid and Babyface, Outkast, Usher, Pink, Tony Braxton, Notorious B.I.G. I mean, this guy is...

the Yoda of music. And he's coming our way. Okay, let's proceed. Let's proceed. All right, we're proceeding. Okay, first things first. Is there a mathematical formula for a hit? I don't think there's a mathematical formula for a hit. I think

It's very important, however, that you do educate yourself. I do think it's important that you know what you're looking for. So often I find that an A&R person, in appraising whether you have a hit, is either looking too much at a track or listening to the melody without considering the lyric. So there's some...

mathematical equation that you really have to have. Yes, in traditional years where ballads could be a hit, you are listening to the melody. You are listening to the lyric. Now, there are certain records, dance records, you know, the lyric is not

nearly as important as is important in a ballad. We are trying to evoke that kind of emotion that generates requests and the instinct to go out and buy the record in the years ago. Today, obviously, with hip-hop dominating, there are a whole new set of factors in there. But if you're looking...

For those copyrights, traditionally, the Whitney Houston songbook, Barry Manilow's songbook, both of which I'm so proud of, those songs were not just hit records. They have become standards, you know, and are part of

contemporary cultural life. They're part of the American canon of songs. And you kind of presupposed my next question in your answer, which is what makes a hit generationally changes, correct? What is a hit today would not have been a hit in 1975 and vice versa? Or I mean, could I write the songs be a hit today?

It would be far more difficult. It would be really difficult. You would have to look to other factors, broadcast opportunities,

to help break it. But radio is still very important. It's just that Top 40 would not play the record. And in those years, Top 40, which is the real prime trigger for a hit record, with hip-hop dominating today, it's tough. But

Not impossible. Ed Sheeran is having huge hits today. It's just more difficult for the middle-of-the-road singer to make it. Let me ask you this. One of the things I love about your career is when you went to Monterey Pop Festival, not knowing what you were going to see, and you saw Big Brother and the Holding Company, but more importantly, you saw what a cultural kind of movement it was amongst an audience that wasn't being underserved.

there were still people who thought that rock and roll was a passing fad. How do you... What do you... And people felt that way about hip-hop. Is rock and roll dead? And is hip-hop the new rock and roll? Well, there's no question that it's more difficult for rock today. The power of rock stations is less than it used to be. It's hard to even...

put on one hand the number of new rock artists that have broken through. I'm sad about that. Let me just say parenthetically. I mean, there's got to be a new...

Springsteen. There's got to be a new Dylan apart from the Rolling Stones. But hip-hop is dominating. Clive, one of the things I was thinking about when you say it's hard, you need to break decks on television in different ways. I heard a story, it may be apocryphal, about Kenny G, who you discovered in

made the, I mean, he's still probably the largest selling instrumentalist of all time, wouldn't you say? Yes, he is, without question. So I heard that he gets the big break to do The Tonight Show. And he's going to go in and he's going to do two songs. And one of them is Songbird, which became a huge hit. That was what broke him out. And there was one other song on the album that they were going to do

And so he records, he rehearses both for The Tonight Show, and then they come to air and they run late. And the producers come to him and they say, we're cutting one of the songs and we want you to play whatever the song that wasn't Songbird. And Kenny says, no, I want to play Songbird. That's the single we're trying to break.

And I think it's really important. They said, no, no, this is the song we want. And that Kenny and his band decided that, fuck it. They were going to play Songbird no matter what. He says, listen, don't listen to anybody. However they introduce it, when they count us down, we're doing Songbird. And he said, look, I might not ever be invited back to Carson. He's never been on Carson. It doesn't get any bigger than Carson, but he plays Songbird.

And someone was watching The Tonight Show and heard it. Is this ringing any bell for you? Because I, and that someone said, this is the kind of music we should be making more of or doing more of. And it just blew his whole career sky high. And I always think about that in terms of being an actor and being an artist and having the courage of your convictions under pressure. Because that's a great call if he did that.

Well, first of all, I'm not familiar with the story, but certainly Kenny was right in saying I'm here for promotion. I've got to promote a single. Otherwise, there's no real reason to do the show. But as if you've seen my documentary, which I know you have now twice,

It's just gone viral on Netflix. Yeah, by the way, everybody, if you haven't seen it, it's called The Soundtrack of Our Lives, Clive Davis on Netflix. If you like music even a little bit,

And if you love music, you're going to love it. But yes, Kenny is very funny in the video. Rob, I wrote a letter to every top 40 adult contemporary station in the country, as Kenny says in the documentary. And I said, look, you don't normally play instrumentals.

But I've given you a lot of great music in my life. And what I would urge you to do is think out of the norm. Think out of the normal boundaries. And this record will react.

And fortunately, a few heroes did. The reaction was dependent, and it led to that big record, and of course, Kenny exploding, and then every album that he did was just huge success.

I'm a huge Christmas guy, huge Christmas music. I mean, and like the more traditional, the better. I'm a big Ray Kniff singers guy. And Kenny's...

Christmas album was also your idea. And Kenny famously said, Clive, I'm a Jew. I can't do a Christmas album. And you said Irving Berlin wrote White Christmas. It was good enough for him. Indeed. Indeed. That's a true dialogue. I said, look, I'm Jewish. I said, there's no reason why you can't do a Christmas album. So he did.

And of course, it became the biggest selling Christmas album in history. It's a spectacular album. There's a great story in your documentary where

You wanted to put a vocal on it, and Kenny didn't want to put a vocal on it, and it sold a lot. And Kenny said, now, Clive, can you please just once admit you're wrong? You said, no, if there's a vocal, it would have sold even more. That gets a great laugh. I've seen it in the theater. At Radio City, we opened the Tribeca Film Festival, and it really brought the house down. It's so good. You know, you are famously...

Well, by the way, before I move on to this, because talking about Kenny G, then I think you need to go to the subject that comes up whenever you think about Kenny G, and that would be the notorious B.I.G. Because, you know, everybody thinks about those two in the same breath. The notion that you have a career that spans that kind of music is amazing to me. What is it about you?

that was able to come from your background and your interest and then understand that Notorious Biggie was a special talent? Well, let me say, as an executive, you've got to know what you can do yourself. You've got to know what's within the spectrum of what is your talent. And when I saw that the future...

was going to be great of music, was going to be greatly impacted by rap, by hip-hop. I knew that the artists that I had on Arista that I was working with, Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick, I had also to supplement that, I wanted the blue collar.

R&B audience. And so I financed LaFace Records with L.A. Reid and Babyface. And through LaFace Records, we broadened to Outkast and to Pink and to Tony Braxton and Usher. But when Puffy came along, and he was a young man of about 23 years old, he was much younger

Well, it's totally close to the street. I was not close to the street. So I took the meeting with him and he very articulately said, I'm attracted to what you and Arista have done because you own Top 40. I believe the Top 40 must embrace hip hop.

And he did that very articulately. It was a pioneering thought. And I said, well, give me an example of who you're thinking of, what kind of music, what will be the sound of tomorrow? And he came and he played for me, Craig Mack's Flavor in Your Ear. And he came and he said, here's a guy who,

And he called them Biggie Smalls. And he said, I'm doing an album with them. And he came and he played three Notorious B.I.G. cuts for me. And could I have found Biggie? No.

Would I have ever been able on my own to sign Biggie? No. But my ears did identify that this was exciting new sounds, a new talent, and that I bought into what was Puffy's vision for Bad Boy,

And that's how I got involved with Notorious B.I.G. It's just, I mean, the list of people, I really, I honestly don't know where to begin. By the way, I should tell you that I, Clive, I hold a grudge that you didn't sign my second cousin once removed, John Mellencamp.

I got a great Mellencamp story. He is literally my second. He is my second cousin. Once removed John Mellencamp. Yes. I'm very angry. You need to tell me what you were thinking. Well, the real. All right. Let me tell you the story. I would say maybe.

Ten years ago or more, Jan Winner, the publisher of Rolling Stone, was being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And there was a dinner the night before for Jan's friends to be more intimate than the big, big, big dinner at the Waldorf the next night.

So I was there at the restaurant you probably went two years ago as well, called Elaine's. Oh, yes. And Elaine's on Second Avenue. She was the queen of the restaurant business. And anyway, we were there at cocktails and...

There was someone saying, it's time to go into dinner. And who? So this was my table. We all were standing. So we all sat down. It was me, Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, Jackson Brown, and Don Henley.

No! I'm telling you word for word the truth. That's my Mount Rushmore right there. That's my Mount Rushmore of music, probably. Okay, so I'm sitting with Rob Lowe's Mount Rushmore, Addy Lane's, it was just that group, and I'm the only non-artist, and they get to talking. Did everyone audition for me? And of course, Bruce did,

through John Hammond, and I signed him. Don Henley was a friend. He and Glenn Frey were friends. I never auditioned them. I looked at Jackson, and he told me a story. One day I'll tell you that he was supposed to audition for me, but David Geffen sort of pulled him in

out of my office before the audition began, because David really wanted to sign Jackson to his upcoming new label, but that he is a manager was beginning. So then I look at John Mellencamp. I say, John, in every interview, I'm asked, who is the most famous person you ever passed on?

And you were the guy. I said, I, you know, all I know in memory is that when you auditioned for me, I felt you were too close. And it's ironic that Bruce is sitting between us and we're here together because I felt you were, I was wrong. You've emerged as one of the great rock American artists.

anywhere in the world, musical persons, if you will, artists of all time. So he said, Clive, let me fill you in. And no longer will you have to apologize. He said, I would say about three or four months before you and I met, I was in a cover band

in Las Vegas, performing only covers of other people's hits with the band. And a guy comes in and looks at us and hears us and puffs on his cigar. And that was a guy by the name of Tony DeFreeze, David Bowie's manager. And he looks at me after we are doing our cover song and he motions me to come over and he said, look,

I will be your manager if you leave the group. And if you see if you could write, do you have an aspiration to write? He says, I said, I think I could, but I really have not. That's why we're doing cover song. So I quit the band. I go out and I start writing. And about six to eight weeks later,

I get a call from Tony DeVry. All right, I've set up your first audition. You're going to audition for Clive Davis. And I was shocked, but obviously I'm not saying no. When I auditioned for you, Clive, my hero,

Bruce Springsteen. There is no question after my just working on song for six to eight weeks that I had my own personality, that I was ready to write Jack and Diane so that there's no question.

Bruce was my hero. If I had to be like anybody, you're right. I was probably under a great influence. So that's a great story. It's a great. We all listen and I feel much better about my passing on John. Hold the thought. We'll be right back.

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. A lot of the people that you made are singers who readily accepted material. I mean, I was interested to see the Barry Manilow conversation where he was more stubborn about that than I would have thought. Do you think you would have been as successful if your stable...

Were more in the singer-songwriter, Jackson Browne type of era? Or because you had more singers and you were able to provide them with hits, that made a difference? Well, let me set the right scene. I was head of Columbia Records. You're right. My first artist that I signed was Janis Joplin and Big Brother.

I had never signed an artist in my life. Music I liked, but I didn't grow up with it as a hobby where I collected records. So I had no idea that I had any ear to. But when after a year or two was had,

And I realized that those A&R people who were doing Tony Bennett, Andy William, Bob, Barbara Streisand, they don't care what's going on in the rock world. And it was only in Monterey that I saw a revolution, a musical revolution, cultural, social revolution. So I said, you know, you see,

At Columbia, I only ran into self-contained artists. So when I signed Choplin, it led me then to sign not just Bruce Springsteen, but Aerosmith, Earth, Wind & Fire, Chicago, Blood, Sweat & Tears. So I signed self-contained rock artists. I was fired from Columbia because at the height

of our strength. We had gone from number three label to number one label, and we were flying high. And some executive that was involved with fraud and forging checks and whom I had to fire had claimed to get a lighter sentence than

that there was payola in the record industry and at Columbia. And let me just stop you really quick. Let me just stop you for some context right there. Was that the beginning and the, really the Genesis of the phrase payola, or was that also in the fifties as well? Preceded in the fifties. We're now talking, uh, really in 1972, three. Correct. And, um,

A guy was president for six months. He was 37 years. The law firm said, cut off your big broadcasting with CBS. We own government licenses. I don't care who's head of your music division.

Let him go. It took me a year and a half to be vindicated. It took me a year and a half. The company was totally blameless. There was no payola. And the industry in huge, large terms was vindicated. But the wound was there. And I had to start a new company. So...

Funded by Columbia Pictures, I all of a sudden, I had the right, because Columbia Pictures owned Bell Records, and they were giving in to my new company, Arista, whatever artists from their label I chose. And so I saw Barry open for DM Warwick in Central Park. I saw him as a great showman.

And I said, okay, I'm signing you to Arista. I listened to the material. It was really unknown other than as the piano player and arranger for Bette Midler. And I didn't hear hits on the album. So for the first time, and the reason I'm telling you this story is that I said, you know,

If I just sign rock artists like I did at Columbia, and the new rock was punk or new wave, those artists don't sell the way Bridge Over Troubled Water with Simon and Garfunkel, Blood, Sweat & Tears, 3 million, 4 million album. I have to see if I have...

song, hearing ability. So that if an artist did not write, I need mainstream hits if I'm going to be a major. Here I had been out of the largest record company in the world, made it the largest. And here I was starting a brand new company. So I gave Barry Mandi

He always considered himself a composer, didn't even believe he was a showman, reluctantly did it. It was the first record on Arista and it went to number one. So he gave me two songs on every subsequent album. He wrote the album.

And he gave me two songs. Every song I gave him, trying to get the feeling again, Weekend in New England, I write this song. Looks like we made it. I gave it to him and he loved it. And he brilliantly arranged it. But he still felt as a composer.

that that was the essence of who he was. And of course, just to digress for a second, we've had the great pleasure, Barry and I, because he ended up writing Copacabana. He wrote this one for you. And he's now in the Songwriters Hall of Fame. And I've had the great pleasure of presenting him with the Ella Award

where he was given the award that only Ella Fitzgerald, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett have won as the great interpretive singers. So quickly moving fast forward, only given two songs on each Manolo album, I had a big backlog.

And I said, my God, I got assigned another artist. Can't be a man. Wait, wait, wait. I got to stop you one second for some context. You're telling me that you had that many songs you thought would have been hits for Barry. Yes. You had more than two per album. Wow. Yes, I did. Well, it was proven because I then looked and it's a thrill to discover Barry.

artists from scratch like Bruce or Whitney or Lishiki, but it's also a thrill to bring back an incredible artist

who was no longer recording, and showed that there are many more years of life and beautiful music. And so the first of such established artists that I saw, because Dionne Warwick had all those Burt Bacharach, Al David hits before, but she was no longer recording.

And the first song we did together was a song I had earmarked for Barry. And it was I'll Never Love This Way Again. And I had Barry produce it.

And Dion exploded, double platinum album, won the best two Grammys, best female pop vocal, best female R&B vocal. And it led to a wonderful association with Dion, where I found Deja Vu, Heartbreaker, and ultimately that's what Friends are for. And that led to Aretha Franklin,

And the great decades Aretha and I worked together where I was her creative collaborator. And the two of us, after she had already been the queen of soul with a collaboration with Jerry Wexler. But then we...

And I found, I knew you were waiting for me, the great duet with George Michael. Sisters are doing it for themselves with Annie Lennox. Freeway of Love. And Aretha well into her 40s, 50s, and later got Grammy nominations, Grammy Awards, and number one records.

And all that occurred prior to Whitney Houston. So that is the context where I learned, not somewhat, yes, there were the self-contained artists, Alicia Keys, I would never give an outside song to. I respect her creativity.

And every rock artist that writes for themselves, you sign for their genius. But where artists really don't write, like Aretha, Dion, Whitney, Ace of Base, Air Supply, I could go on and on. I then had honed my ears to find songs for their careers. Tell me about literally writing for...

What did you get the writing credit on? It's Air Supply, All Out of Love, isn't it? All Out of Love came in after they had a big hit record, but I went through their material, and in their material was a song called All Out of Love, but the lyrics

I remember the next line was, I'm all out of love. I want to arrest you. And I looked at the two of them. I'm all out of love. I want to arrest you. So I said, what does that mean? I mean, in America, I mean, you get arrested. And somehow it had another meaning in Australia, where they came from. So I said, you know...

This melody is killer. The title's fine. Let's sit down and write the lyrics to fulfill the potential. So for the only time in my life, I sat down and co-wrote with them the lyric to I'm All Out of Love. That's one of my, I mean, there's so many great little factoids, but that's a great one. Here's a good one for you.

And I've been thinking about this for a while. My guess is this happened during the era when you were estranged from being able to work from Earth, Wind & Fire. The song September. Was that under your purview? Because I have a question about it. It was not. No. I knew it! It was not. I signed Earth, Wind & Fire under closeted circumstances. I had seen them before.

open for John Sebastian of the Love and Spoonful. I was knocked out by this group. And they were under contract to Warners, but they were very, very unhappy. So they wanted to audition for me the kind of material that they would record in the future.

And we arranged under very stealthy conditions a small studio in L.A. And they played Maurice White for Dean. They played for me the material that they wanted to record but had not. I was knocked out. And so I said, look, I don't want to be teased. If you ever get free of your Warner's contract,

I will sign you. And sure enough, a few months later, I don't know how they did it, Bob Cavallo and Joe Ruffalo, they freed Earth, Wind & Fire. And for the first time in Columbia's history, we had the next convention in London. But my belief in them, there's a big group, that I don't want...

all the Columbia personnel from all over the world just to hear music. This group had to be seen, and they were much bigger than any record, and I didn't know if they had a hit single because they were different and unique. So I flew them to London, and they blew away the audience there at Columbia.

And that's how I introduced them to Columbia. They never forget it. And I just was down this past year. They were being honored by the National Portrait Gallery in D.C. Right. They didn't even know that. That's a portrait. That's a portrait I want to see. I want to see the portrait of earth, wind and fire. Well.

Well, they're in the National Portrait Gallery. Wow. And I went down there. It was Michelle Obama was there and Anna Wintour and Jeff Bezos. It was a wonderful evening. And I inducted them into the National Portrait Gallery. Amazing. They never forget it. They appear at my Grammy party every few years. They're wonderful human beings and they're fabulous people.

So, Clive, here's how I knew that September, one of my favorite songs, was not under your regime. You know that song's out of time, badly. Is it? I never studied it. Oh, okay. So here's what you're going to do today. This is my gift to you. You're going to listen to September, and you're going to see how horrendously bad out of time it is.

And it's a massive hit and it's genius. But I would say by the time it ends, it's doubled its tempo unintentionally. I love these like weird little, because there's perfection in music, as you know, and then there's feel. And that was, there were other versions of the song that were, the time was proper, right?

but it didn't have the feel. So they wisely went. It's like your famous story about David Foster's mix for I Will Always Love You. And I love that story. I love that story. David wanted to do, and I love, I'm not speaking out of school. I love David Foster. I've known him for 40 years, but he is a perfectionist. Like he would rather, and I would say this to his face, he'd rather have a note be pitch perfect than good.

So, and he wanted to rejigger with the mix. And you said, no, this mix is good. And you sent it out and the rest is history. Isn't that correct? That is correct. Yes, that's true. Very much so. And David will be the first one to tell that story.

Yeah, look, the feel is so important and perfection sometimes is not the most desirable. David tells me a great story when he was doing the Canadian version of We Are the World. By the way, that phrase, the Canadian version of We Are the World, makes me laugh for some reason. I'm not sure why. And he had all these amazing artists and you had Neil Young, who's probably on my Mount Rushmore as well, in the vocal booth. Yeah.

And he was like, Neil, I think you're a little flat on the third word. And Neil's like, hey, man, that's my style. And we'll be right back after this.

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All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. The unlikely couple of you and Patti Smith. Explain that one to me. I feel like you guys are totally the most, I mean, the big hit melodies, the earworms, the American songbook canon that I associate you with.

And then Patti Smith, who, by the way, is one of the great authors of all time. I'm sure you read her books, right? Yes. They're amazing. Yeah. They're unbelievable. Well, I would caution you to typecast me. Okay, good. I won't. You're right. I should. I just explained to you that at Columbia...

I only signed rock artists. I was shocked that I had the ears for that. So I was not looking for great big songs when I signed Janis Joplin. I didn't look for great big songs when I signed Bruce Springsteen or Aerosmith or Earth, Wind & Fire, if you will. So that along, when I started Aerosmith,

As I mentioned, I was hungry to be a major label. It was a brand new company that I named Arista after the honor society in my high school was called Arista, all New York high school. And so there are two coexisting talents. One is your ear for songs. Two is your artist discovery skills.

so that it can accommodate. And because of the artists that I signed at Columbia and The Rock that have gotten me in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I didn't get in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because of the songs I found from Barry Manilow or DM Warwick or even Whitney, if you will. I said, so...

alongside those big songs that I found for Barry and Dion and ultimately for Whitney, Aris retracted The Grateful Dead, Aris retracted The Kings. I signed Ian Dory of Stiff Records. I had Lou Reed, Graham Parker, but Patti Smith, Patti Smith,

My A&R man, Bob Fiden, alerted me to who she was. And the buzz was beginning. She was different, unique, rebellious, bright, literate, irreverent. And I said, I'm not going to audition her at Max's Kansas City. I took a small recording studio and I auditioned her in a group.

Really still unknown, obviously. Different. But Patti Smith is a genius. And all you've got to do is listen to that lyric. Listen to whatever she did. Jesus died for somebody's sins. Someone's sins, but not mine. You know, and...

I didn't look for hits. I was looking for an original rock and roll. And as she turned out, this great Renaissance woman. So yes, I was a believer. I signed her.

We've had a wonderful relationship. She inducted me into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. She is stupendous. I think Paul Simon is the greatest American songwriter. What do you think? I will echo that totally. I mean, to me, it's Paul Simon, Stevie Wonder, and Burt Bacharach. Those are the three to me. But Paul Simon...

An amazing body of work. I mean, just an amazing body of work. I obviously worked with him as Simon and Garfunkel when I was head of Columbia. My life there, both Paul and Audie are in my documentary, if you will. I was not there when they were interviewed by Ridley Scott. I was so touched, honestly, Rob, all these decades later.

for them separately, they're not on the best of current terms, but separately, to remember when they came to play Bridge Over Troubled Water for me, the album. And they were so sure that I would pick Cecilia as the first single from that album. And I remember going in the studio with them and Roy Halle, their engineer producer, listening,

And I said, Paul Harding, the first thing that's got to be Bertramo Trouble Water. Well, they were both shocked at the time. Why do you say that? I said, because you can't approach life in a formula way. Yes, I...

Tempo was considered. Yes, length of it. This was over four minutes where the rule was every single had to be under three and a half minutes then. I said, but every so often, if it's a classic, if it's so original, if it's so overpowering,

I vote we go with that because it's a home run. I believe in it. And in my documentary, each says they were shot. And they use that as an example of, if you will, how I endeared, how I became endeared to them because I went for the home run. And it obviously proved right. Yeah, I mean, that's... My son...

who's 24, watched The Graduate for the first time this weekend and was just blown away, not only by the movie, but by that soundtrack. And I said, listen, Simon and Garfunkel, there doesn't get any bigger or better than them. And then what Paul went on to do on his own, he's just a spectacular, spectacular talent. He's definitely... My Mount Rushmore is getting bigger as we're talking. Yeah.

Right. Deservedly so. Paul is an amazing, and he was the first winner, I think, of the recently established Kirshman Prize as just an absolutely first-ranked top American songwriter.

Clive, tell me about the Whitney Houston movie that you have in the works. Okay. I've seen the two documentaries that have come out on Whitney, and they were one-dimensional, often incorrect. The public has not seen them.

the full story of Whitney Houston. Not to whitewash in any way her drug addiction, her premature death, nothing about her speculation. Meet them head on, resolve them with authenticity, but also

show a musical genius, also show why she inspired everyone as the best singer of a generation, if not of all time. So I met about a year ago Anthony McCartan, who's a screenwriter who had written The Theory of Everything and The Darkest Hour. But his biggest credit

was that he wrote the screenplay for "Bohemian Rhapsody," which is now the biggest, almost a billion dollars worldwide musical film of all time. And Anthony and I met, and he went through my book and my documentary, and he came to see me one day, and he said,

I know you want so badly for the real legacy, for the real life story. Hard hitting, heartbreaking. I'll work on it with you. He said it would be my pleasure. And so over the last seven or eight months, I said, look, you can't do it, Anthony.

Until you really steeped yourself. I will arrange for you to meet with Pat Houston, Gary Houston, Donna Houston, Nicole David. I even arranged for him to meet with Whitney's psychiatrist, which is unusual, but I vouched for Anthony. And he met with our costume dresser and our hairstylist so that he steeped

In an awareness and then musically, I played him every Whitney performance from my Grammy party. You know, my party that I throw the night before the Grammys that has become the biggest party in Hollywood, you know, and then see Pelosi, Tim Cook, everybody. David Hockney comes apart from Quincy Jones and Puffy and Beyonce and Jay-Z. It's a marvelous night every year.

And we are first next week.

going to studios. Obviously, Sony will have the soundtrack album at the least with a great script that Anthony has written with the approval of the estate. And we're looking forward. Of course, it's a nightmare period right now, but we're really looking forward to moving ahead with the true full legacy.

Let me ask you this, Clive. Would you rather someone lip sync or sing? Because I look at Coal Miner's Daughter, Sissy Spacek, great movie. She sang. I look at Sweet Dreams, Jessica Lange playing Patsy Cline. She did not. Both great movies. I actually don't think it matters. What would you prefer? Whitney's voice. There are some voices you can...

either duplicate or compete with. There's no voice like Whitney, and that's the voice that will be heard. That makes your casting a lot easier, too. Well, we're looking at the best candidates right now, Rob. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait to see that. You will remember, I was at the Grammys

This year, I want it was definitely in the 80s. I want to feel like it was around 85. I sat directly behind Michael Jackson and Whitney came out and she sang at the Grammys. And I remember her voice sounded. She obviously had a microphone, but I could hear her voice in it was at the shrine. And it sounded like the only thing I can compare it to is I was lucky enough to sit with Pavarotti in a room and have him sing.

And both of their voices came out of their heads, not just their mouths, but it came, it felt like it came out of a tube. Like it was so powerful and so pure. I've never experienced anything, anything like it, like seeing Whitney live. Well, I think you'll see it in the movie too, the voice. She sang one moment in time and look, we've got,

performances. Whitney, I'll never forget the heiress to 15th anniversary, 1990. Whitney's first record came out in 85. But she came out, and apart from singing The Greatest Love of All, she sang I Want to Dance with Somebody and What Separates Us.

From the other two great, great, great singers of our lifetime, Aretha Franklin and Barbra Streisand,

She scoured the stage going from one side to another without wanting to dance with somebody. She growled. She pounded on her thighs. She went from one side to the other. So whether it's that or it's not right, but it's OK. Or how will I know? She could do soaring ballads.

But she can also do up-tempo dance records that can keep you on your feet the whole night. She was an incredible once-in-a-lifetime talent. And by the way, I agree with you on the three women as the greatest singers of our lifetime. Who are the three greatest men? You know, one of them, well, Sinatra. Yeah. I would give you five or six.

I would include Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Johnny Mathis. I would include Luther Vandross. And the one young man, and I just had occasion on our mutual friend Richard's Zoom that we're going through on this quarantine.

To tell John Legend that he has grown and grown and grown, that his voice is so special and powerful. He's right up there with Luther, you know. So those are some of the great male candidates. Of course, Sinatra is probably in the class by himself. For Sinatra, for me, it's just, it's the sort of phrasing and the swagger. It's not...

There's nothing I don't think about the voice that is, I mean, it's great, but it's not like a Whitney tone. Do you know what I mean? I think it's more personality driven. Does that make sense? Well, let me caution you to not judge everything by power or range. Sinatra felt every kind of music.

He brought his own rhythm. He brought his own beat. He was comfortable with jazz. He was comfortable. Plus, as soon as you hear his voice, you're not going to be confused as to who he is. And it's that reason why artists like Bono, O'Kane, or The Grateful Dead, they all had unique respect for Frank Sinatra.

I have a couple of questions to finish up, and this has been so great. And I know that you, to take time out of your beautiful day at Palm Springs, you're a super mensch to do this, and I appreciate it. And I ask my guests these a lot, these questions, and they seem tailor-made for you. I did not write these questions for you. I ask all my guests, but...

You are the real person to answer. I need you to give me your top three songs. I know it's going to be hard. They don't have to be yours. They can be, but the top three. Listen, it's like my answer to you, like Rob Lowe, I don't know who you're asking these questions to. Tell me your top two children. You know what I mean? I know. I can't separate songs from what were part of

of my life. I really can't. I mean, all I know is that for artists that I was not associated with, let me just give a general answer, but with some specificity. For years, my favorite album was the Mamas and Papas. And when they came along,

And they were doing California Dreamin' and those songs during that early rock era. What a field for melody. What a uniqueness. Paul Simon, when you hear Bridge Over Trouble Water would be in that top list. The great

Stevie Wonder, as I said, and Bert Packerack, the incredible catalog of that. And then those that touch my life, you know, the piece of my heart that broke Joplin. I write the songs that took Manilow to another level. But it's hard to imagine or think back

Was there anything like the Great American Songbook? Was there anything like Cole Porter? I spent so much time with my good friend, Tita Khan, listening to the great Sammy Khan and Jimmy Van Heusen songs. So, wow. How do you compare the Great American Songbook and Cole Porter with Bridge Over Troubled Water and I Will Always Love You?

I was there. I commissioned The Greatest Love of All. It was for the movie on the life of Muhammad Ali. And I had Michael Massa and Linda Creed, and they came up with a song coming out of the movie on Muhammad Ali's life, and it was called The Greatest Love of All. And I had George Benson record it, and it was a top 10 R&B hit.

Go to 19, about eight years later, and I'm auditioning Whitney Houston. And she steps out as a 19-year-old from her mother's act. Out of the blue, I had not even met her. And what song does she audition for me in an audience at a club called Sweetwaters in Manhattan? About 150, 200 people auditioned.

Whitney singing The Greatest Love of All and breathing life, words, feelings, inspiration. Then I knew the composers didn't even know what they are. And of course,

It motivated me. My God, I've got to sign this stunning young woman. Look at her version. What a genius. And of course, that moment, that song twice appearing in my life is very special. What I was going to say, what is if you've had so many and I know it's an impossible question, but what do you think your favorite life moment is? Well, let me just tell you my favorite life moment.

Apart from my family, because if I don't include my family, I'll get saddled with therapy bills still right now. So don't let me compare to the birth of my four children or my eight grandchildren. I would have to say the most gratifying, to paraphrase, was...

When I was making too much money at Aristo, we're talking of the year 2000, and I was making okay in the 20s, millions a year. Amazing. And the German company that owned it thought they could do it. They knew I was at the peak of my career. I had just resigned Santana with Supernatural.

becoming the 12th biggest selling album of all time. My Love Is Your Mother. With that great hit, Smooth. What a hit. Great song. Yeah, what a hit. And so they financed me starting a brand new company. They gave me $150 million, the largest company formed ever before that was in the scope, at $38 to $40 million. I said, I've got to be a major producer.

And you got to give me five multi-platinum and five new artists to start because I'm not starting from scratch. They agreed. One of those artists was Alicia Keys, who agreed to come with me. She had no record out yet. She was just in the studio. And I said, plus, and this is what I'm leading up to.

I will not offer any executive at Arista a penny more than they're currently earning. But I have to be a major company. And I've made a list of the 18 from the president to the executive vice president to the A&R staff, product, artist development, publicity,

I said the 18 top executives of Arista, and I can't offer them any more, but I'm going to start J Records with them. And they're free to either come with me, and you could offer them anything you want to stay at Arista. And Rob, 18 out of 18 executives came with me to J. So when you know...

I'm a hardworking guy. I've got hard criteria challenges. But the fact, and they were all married with families, every single executive. So overnight, Jay Rickards became Arista. And the fact that all 18 came with me to start Jay and, of course, explode Arista.

Alicia and Luther and Busta Rhymes and all the American idols, et cetera, in the future. That was professionally my most gratifying special moment. Well, I would follow you anywhere, Clive. I really would. You've always been so nice to me and such a gentleman. And for a kid from Ohio who's

Probably first album was Barry Manilow and took so much shit for listening to Barry Manilow when all the other kids were listening to Led Zeppelin. I think it's perfectly fitting that you and I end up here today talking about your life and your great accomplishments. Well, pleasure to be with you. And it's always a pleasure to be with you. And all those Kenny G years when you were Kenny, close, close, close friend. I remember them well.

Kenny taught me my golf stroke. Whenever I hit a good golf stroke, it's because I'm a good golfer. And when I don't hit a good golf stroke, it's because Kenny taught me how to play golf. Okay. That's the way. All right, Clive. Love you, man. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. You've been amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much, Rob. See you soon. You bet. Take care. Bye. Bye.

It's so inspiring to see someone like Clive who still is interested and interesting and engaged and forever young as he is now is the day he went to discover Janis Joplin. Really, really cool. And just honored that he took a minute to be on our silly little podcast. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe. Produced and engineered by me, Devin Tory Bryant.

Executive produced by Rob Lowe for Lowe Profile. Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. And Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blairt. Talent producer, Jennifer Sampras. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

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