Dawes: Pan to the Left and Mute
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That's 15% off at SaatchiArt.com. S-A-A-T-C-H-I-Art.com. Ever wish your favorite TV show had twice as many episodes? Everyone knows that feeling. And so does Discover. Everyone wants more of their favorites. That's why Discover doubles another favorite thing. Cash back.

That's right. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cash Back Match. Now that's a real crowd pleaser. Everyone knows how it ends. Double the cash back. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Guys, I'm so psyched to have you on the show. I mean, and I'm psyched we're finally getting to talk. I've been such a fan of your guys' jam for a long, long time. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. Right back at you.

Hello and welcome to Literaturely. Today's a first. We're going to play music today. Not only are we going to play music, we are going to have one of my favorite bands of all time. Dawes is with us today. And their new album is Good Luck With Whatever. I love these guys so much. And hopefully you know who they are and you are as big of fans as I am. And if not, you're going to be.

in about an hour from now. So get ready for that. Um,

You know, this is the California sound, man. Jackson Brown, the Eagles, Crosby, Stills and Nash, you know, but the new iteration of it, you know, that feels fresh and cool. And these guys are so great. And stuff is going to come up in this conversation that first of all, turns out we went to school. We went to the same high school. This is I got to get to the bottom of it. I got to get to the bottom of if their minds were as polluted as mine were from going to Malibu Park.

High school or junior high in my case. Anyway, get ready to vibe out. This is such a cool episode. I'm so proud of this interview just because it's so fun and interesting. We have music. We're getting to be a real show. Anyway, here comes Dawes.

In doing a little research, I found out we all went to the same high school. I knew this. I knew this. I listened to your interview with Dax. Yeah, I mean... Wow! I went to it when it was Malibu Park Junior High. Wow. And you were there at the same time as Sean Penn, correct? I was... Oh, yeah. So in our little junior high...

I remember we had 714 students because I was the parliamentarian of the student council. That shows you what kind of big swinging dick I was. I am the parliamentarian. And so out of that group, we had Sean Penn, Emilio Estevez, Robert Downey Jr. Damn, that's insane. Charlie Sheen. What were they teaching you? What were they teaching you? How to smoke pot in the...

Was that still when the sports team was the controversial great white sharks instead of just what it is now, which is the sharks? Oh, that's amazing. Oh, I missed that scandal. No, we when I was there, the pool was always broken.

Pool's always broken. There was nothing there. I would, oh, you'll like, appreciate this though. We would play soccer on the upper field and my brother Chad played with the Dillon kids, Jacob and Jesse. Oh, wow. And so Bob would come. Well, that's intimidating. And sit and watch. It was so cool. Wow.

What do you call this game? Hey, I don't know what to make of it. There's a lot of running around, but there's not much action. That was like the worst Bob Dylan impersonation anybody has ever done. So what years were you guys at Malibu Park? I graduated in 03. Yeah, I was 08. And you started the band there, right? The first iteration. My senior year, we, I was...

I just found a way to like do as little as possible. So I was getting out of school every day at one and I would drive to the Valley and we would rehearse. So it was pretty much- We lived in the Valley at that point. 2007. Yeah, I mean, we started a version of the band when I was still there, but that was called Simon Dawes. And by the time, and Blake Mills was my partner with that and he also went to Malibu High. But by the time that broke up and it started becoming Dawes, I was out of high school and Griffin was doing his senior year.

So you guys are by far the biggest band to come out of Malibu Park Junior High, other than maybe the Surf Punks. Do you remember that? Did you ever know about the Surf Punks? No. No? Oh, you might have to do a deep dive when we're done with this. Well, there was always like the Malibu scene bands. They never went to the high school, but like there was White Star with Cisco Adler. There was that guy, Shwayze, who actually was my classmate. And then there was bands like Face Humper, which I don't know if they ever really made it out of town. Backbone 69. Yeah, Backbone 69. Yeah.

I heard that DaVenture was there. Yeah, DaVenture was a few years ahead of me. He was in like Raver beads and JNCO jeans. It was a very different aesthetic. Did you guys ever try to find any of the old studios from like where Neil Young recorded and, and all of those like, and, and,

You know, there's that great Stevie Nicks song, uh, gold that, that one time wonder hit, you know, where she talks about driving over Canaan singing to my soul. Cause people out there turn the music into gold. Like my, my obsession was where are they turning the music into gold over Canaan doom road? There was definitely Shangri-La. Yeah. That Shangri-La is still there. Um, somebody was telling me recently they were dropping their kid off at Malibu high and they were like sitting in traffic on the way out and

and look to their left and Neil Young was just like sitting in his car on his way into that studio. But yeah, I mean, we were aware that that place was there, but I feel like, I don't know, I was so checked out of...

Like, just I was just so bummed on high school that I can't wait. I can't even imagine somebody checked out in high school in Malibu. That's a I take a minute to get my hand around. Yeah. I mean, at that point, my my overarching aspiration was just to be on tour. So, like, I don't even think I was thinking that far ahead, but certainly those places exist and.

I'm sure there's still remnants of them around. There's got to be. Were you guys, were you and your like, like classic class of future famous people, were you guys all actors at that point or was that still to come? The school plays must have been insane. Talent shows, talent show,

I remember Holly Robinson who's an actress singer who's been around but um Holly was a great singer and she would sing Desperado as her throw down at the talent show to Linda Ronstadt who would sit in the front row and watch whoa

That's so cool. My big throwdown was to do my version of Dan Aykroyd's famous sketch on SNL, Bass-o-matic, where you put a bass in a blender and drank it. That's sort of... So yeah, so we were all, you know, we were all doing it. Was music a big thing in... Because there was no... I don't remember anybody really doing music in Malibu. I mean, we still had dances in the gym where bands played. Not

Not DJs, but proper bands. That's awesome. That was really fun. I remember one of my classmates, I think she might have been a year younger than me, her dad was the guy from...

Oh man, I forget the name of the band, but he would always come and sing the take this broken way. No way. Yeah. And it was like his tune and it was so good hearing it all the time. Yeah. Oh, you had, you came up in a better era cause we were stuck with Peter Yarrow, Peter, Paul and Mary. And if I had here puffed the fucking magic dragon one more time during assembly, I was going to lose my mind. Yeah. I remember we had Anthony Kiedis came and spoke to our class. Oh, lucky we didn't have that. Whoa.

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, music was for sure happening, but like, I mean, as you know, it was, it's such a small school that like, it was only a handful in each grade maybe that actually played music. Did they teach music there? Cause also I'm a lot older than you guys and we still taught

part of your education was always learning a trade. So you'd have like wood shop. I think those days are like a long over metal shop. Wood shop was still hanging out for like the very end by this really old guy. It might've been the same guy. Mr. Poole. Yes. Wow. He really lasted a while. Mr. Poole. He was so old. He's so old. I failed Mr. Poole's wood shop. Yeah.

It seemed so dangerous. I never had his class, but I went inside and there's all these saws and like wood desks. How do you fail that class? You have to cut a finger off or something? No, I had in my imagination, my project in my mind, I have a very good imagination, but I'm not handy at all. So I couldn't, and I remember being so frustrated that I couldn't put into practical usage what I wanted to build. And it was like, led to my first case of depression, probably. Yeah.

And then zero tolerance from Mr. Poole. Or handiness. I'm still not your guy for that. If you want something built, like when I drive by an Ikea, I break out in hives. Who are your, I mean, so I've always wanted to know about the Jackson Brown connection. Like, because when I first heard your guy's music,

I'm a huge Jackson Browne fan. And my guess is that we all have the same musical influences and tastes and stuff like that. But I was like, these guys are like...

And I mean to say like the new Jackson records, that's not what it is. You're much more diverse and it's unfair to compare anybody, but it definitely reminded me of it. Tell me about your history with Jackson. That was cool. Our producer, Jonathan Wilson, who produced our first two records and actually our sixth and what will be our eighth. But he, when we made our first record with him,

And then it was funny after our first record, during our first record, we weren't really hip to that California music. I had never heard of Warren's even. Come on. No way. Yeah. And on the first record, that's true. And then in the second record, nothing is wrong was when we had just realized like, wow, the Eagles and Jackson. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Well, hold on, pal. You mean to tell me.

That you guys came up, how you came up with the music you guys do, you make an album and you're not like that familiar with that sound? Not at all for the first time. That's what, like what, that was how, kind of how we got Pigeonhole was part of like the Laurel Canyon sound, which is awesome. But yeah, like Taylor's saying, we had no,

We had no frame of reference for that type of music. So it makes you wonder, I mean, if there's something in the water out here in LA. Yeah. And it was the kind of thing of like, I wonder if...

If like people saying we kind of sounded like a California band made us do the research into it. And that's what made us discover, you know, Zvon and Jackson and the deeper Joni. We knew blue. We knew crosshairs and Nash. We knew Neil Young, but we didn't know. Yeah. We didn't know like, like Eagles records. We didn't know like the deep Jackson stuff. We didn't know any Zvon. And so once we got turned on to that, our producer, Jonathan was like,

He was becoming friends with Jackson through this amazing musician, Benji Hughes. And so it was time for us to mix our record. And he was like, let's go do it at Jackson's spot in Santa Monica. It's a perfect place to mix it. And we were like, we just made this record that definitely was influenced by him. And I just couldn't believe that that was real. So I'm like, oh, my God, let's do it.

So we go do it. And Jackson is an incredibly kind and generous person. But he's also like, you know, he's letting us use the studio. He's got a lot of other things going on. So he was like around. But we weren't like we didn't totally we didn't totally like line up right away. It was just everyone was doing a lot of things at once. And then I remember one day.

I don't remember how I brought it up, but I was like, you know, those first two Zvon records that you produced are two of my favorite records of all time. And when you mentioned Zvon to him, he just lights up. And it's like, oh, you're a Zvon fan? And it was just like...

Then he just opened up and just kept telling stories and kept asking questions. And then from that budding friendship, Jonathan, our producer, was like, why don't you sing on this song? We had this song on the record called Fire Away where we needed a last fourth part harmony for literally two lines.

And Jackson's like, sure, I'll do it. And so he sang these two harmony parts. But after the harmony was over, he added one little improv line where he's just out by himself. And it is like pure Jackson Browne. And all of us just were like, oh, my God. Our record has a true Jackson moment on it now. And it meant the world to us. And then from there, we just kind of like...

he just was he again like I said he's so generous and he wants he wants to always be making music and involve whoever he's hanging with and talking with so he's like you know I have to go to Spain and I have to play these shows in Spain what if Jonathan and Dawes come with me and we all just play all these shows together so we hung out in Spain for two weeks and that was like we cemented the bond

Because some of your guitar licks definitely feel like they're right at it. Like my vintage Jackson. He was such a big part of my life of growing up in Malibu in that time and discovering his work and stuff.

You know, when late, you know, when Running on Empty came out, like I was like that, I was that I got to go to the record store to Euphoria Records in Malibu. There's one record store. It was called Euphoria. You can imagine what they were also selling there. The name like that. And it would take a month for an album to hit Malibu after come out anywhere else.

And you'd go down there and you'd get that. And like, that was, that's what music was in those days. And that's like, that's sounds like such a, a more romantic time. I remember my first record was at warehouse and it was Marcy's playground. Yeah. Good record, by the way. I mean, it's really good. Running on empty. No, it's not running on empty. Yeah.

Yeah, I got – mine was like third eye – oh, no. Mine was the MIB soundtrack from like Blockbuster. Oh, dude. With what was the big one he did? What was his big – Wild Wild West, right? No, that's the Wild Wild West movie. This was the good guys dressed like me, MIB or whatever. So genius. Yeah, it's so good. The other thing you should know is –

And how I found you guys is, and I think it's kind of really kind of cool because it's only happened to me maybe once, one other time where I was out doing my business where I can't remember where I was. Oh, I remember I actually was, it was, I had music on, on some station and I was by, I was in my backyard and a little bit of everything came on, but I didn't know what it was. It just came on.

And I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't listening to music. I was going about my day and it just stopped me cold in my tracks. And I was like, what the fuck is this? And I was like, wow. And the only other time that happened was with that song Superman, which is another great song. Yeah.

And I thought it'd be fun, if you don't mind, to give me a little bit of that. Give me a little bit of a little bit of everything because that was the song that introduced me to you. And I'd love to introduce it to people who may not have heard it. Yeah. But I get to sing the, oh, oh, oh. I get that lick. That's all I'm saying. Well, it's back against the San Francisco traffic on the bridges side that faces towards the jail.

Setting out to join a demographic He hoists his first leg up over the rail Then a phone call's made and police cars show up quickly And the sergeant slams his passenger door He says, "Hey kid, why don't you talk through this with me? Just tell me what you're doing it for Oh, it's a little bit of everything

It's the mountains, it's the fog It's the news at six o'clock It's the death of my first dog It's the angels up above me It's the song that they don't sing It's a little bit of everything There's an older man who stands in a buffet line He is smiling and he's holding out his plate

And the further that he looks back into his timeline That hard road always led him to today He's making up for when his bright future just left him He's making up for the fact that his only son is gone And letting everything out once his server asks him Have you figured out yet what it is you want?

I think I'll have a little bit of everything The biscuits and the beans Whatever helps me to forget about These things that brought me to my knees So pile on those mashed potatoes And how about an extra chicken wing Cause I'll be having a little bit of everything Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

Somewhere a pretty girl is writing invitations for a wedding that she has scheduled in the fall. Her man walks in and says, baby, can I make just one observation? You don't seem to be having any fun at all. She says, well, you could just worry about your groomsmen and your shirt size and rest assured

This is making me feel good. I think that love is so much easier than we realize. If you can give yourself to someone, then you should. Cause it's a little bit of everything. The way you laugh, the way you ache. It's getting up way before you, so I could just watch you as you wake.

So on that day in late September, it's not just some stupid little ring. It's a little bit of everything. So fun. So great. There's no chorus. I just forgot the words all of a sudden. Hold the thought. We'll be right back.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. What's your songwriting process like? Do you write...

anywhere, everywhere, when it hits you to carry a notebook? How's it go? What's like the specifics of it? Um, I used to be better about the notebook. The notebook is such a help when I'm, when I have more of a discipline with it. I always tell myself that I'll be able to have the same results from just being more proactive with like the voice, um, uh, with like the note section of a phone, but it's just not true. Um, yeah. Um, honestly, like when it comes to writing, I write,

By myself, and then I bring it to the band, and then we arrange as a band. So it's not one of those things. You hear about the Stones or certain bands where they go into the studio with nothing, and then they just kind of groove until they find the song. We actually want to do that. We've never done that, though. I write the songs kind of like that, by myself, and then we figure out how to play it as a group. Through the years, there have always been different approaches, and it's sort of like that...

This might sound silly, but it's sort of like that Miles Davis quote where he's like, you know, I'm really good at playing ballads. That's why I don't play ballads anymore. And so like whenever I get into a groove where like, oh, I love to write at night. I love to write at home off tour. I love to like have a drink or whatever it is. Then it's like, oh, shit. Like whenever there's all of a sudden like a protocol, I want to throw that out the window and never do that again. Because I guess I worry that like,

I feel like I can use that against me. I can use that to ward off inspiration. Like, well, no, even though this is a good idea for a song, I'm not in my zone. I'm not in my space. And I don't want to ever think like that. So I really try to just be open to...

anywhere at any time in any way. And that's worked out sometimes. Like, you know, I've found myself like getting off a plane and singing a vocal idea into my voice memo and like that turning into who do you think you're talking to actually?

And so stuff like that can happen. But then, you know, all of our songs have way too many lyrics. So that always takes a long time for me to like write all of. And Griffin, do you ever, has there been the thing where you go, that's great. Thanks, bro. Or bro.

It's not there yet. I mean, I don't know if I, if I'm ever, if it's ever as, as harsh as that, because that's just me and my brother. That's the way we talk to each other. I mean, it's generally pretty, it's pretty rad, but Taylor will send me stuff. I guess usually before we played as a band and then sometimes it's like, yeah, dude, that's fucking awesome. And sometimes it's, I'll have suggestions here and there. Well, I don't know if they always are pertinent, but yeah. And, um, I also was, uh,

reading about your guys' sort of theory about how bands stay together and why they break up and stuff like that. And I once was able to have a really interesting conversation with Chris Martin about Coldplay and how they do it. And he was telling me that they just went to Bono and U2. We're like, how do you guys do it? And he was like, where people get into trouble a lot of times is money and credit. And we make sure that that's never an issue.

And we've been together ever since. And so that's what the Coldplay guys do, particularly when there's like, you know, front man and, you know, it's hard. It gets complicated. Yeah. I feel like on top of that, like balance of power is kind of a thing. Like what I think the reason that we've been not just able to see together, but like thrive and get along so well is that we all

give each other space to, to, to do whatever it is that each of us does. So it's like, we know what we're good at and, and everything is essentially democratic. So nobody's like, you know, pushing an idea that, that, that the other three guys are maybe not for. Yeah. I mean, I, I recently did some recording with John Fogerty and he was telling me like, he was talking about credence and he was saying like, he was like, yeah, you know, I, we made those records cause we,

We made the records we made because I knew exactly what I wanted to hear. But he was kind of saying that also might have been part of why we ended up not getting along. So if you have one person in there that's like,

This visionary that knows exactly what it is. Brian Wilson or, you know, there's a bunch of. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, yeah, it really is this like relinquishing of control, like, like really recognizing like this is a four way marriage. And just like in a marriage, there'll be times where it's like,

well, that's not exactly how I wanted to spend our weekend, but it's a bit of what I wanted to do. And it's a bit of what you wanted to do. And now we're doing it and it's great. But it's sort of like that with songs where I'll write a song and I'll be like, oh, this could totally be the single or, or this could totally be, you know, whatever. And then like one or more of the other guys here in a different way, or we all just hear it in our own way. And then by the time we like put all that together, it's like, oh, this is,

really cool. It's definitely not a single anymore. But that's okay. And that's what it needs to be. I don't want to like

like kind of bulldoze my way through it as someone that isn't a drummer and isn't a bassist and isn't a keyboard player and say like, here's what you all do. Because I wrote the song because it's just going to like create tension and stress when the reality is we all have a voice to express. Yeah. I feel like it, it kind of what it means to be in a band is to not, is to, yeah, to see control. It's to not, I mean, if you have a, if you have somebody in the band that,

that is a producer, then like, and they're on a mission to make the record they want to hear. And then it's not really a band dynamic. You know, it's like we, we kind of have to have a producer, whether it's Jonathan Wilson or whoever that to essentially act as that arbiter, because we're, it's necessary that we don't get in each other's shit in order to like, you know, kind of just keep the vibe alive. Yeah.

Well, that's the perfect lead in. My next request, I love this, is like I'm doing requests. It's great. It's very, very cool. And you guys are so kind to do this for me because it just is a fan. It makes me happy. But since we're on the subject, maybe we'll hear, may all your favorite bands stay together. Yeah. Midnight drives and hot French fries and friends around the country. From Charlottesville to good old Santa Fe. Ah.

When I think of you, you still got on that hat that says let's party. I hope that thing is never thrown away. I hope that life without a chaperone is what you thought it'd be. I hope your brother's hell coming on runs forever.

I hope the world sees the same person that you always were to me. And may all your favorite bands stay together. Now I'm just waking up and I'm not thinking clearly, so don't quote me. With one eye open, I'm writing you this song. Ain't it funny how some people

Pop into your head so easily Cause I haven't seen you in there for so long I hope that life without a chaperone Is what you thought it'd be I hope your brother's alchemy No runs forever I hope the world sees the same person That you always were to me

And may all your favorite bands stay together. May all your favorite bands stay together. Including Creedence Clearwater Revival. Not much hope there, I'm afraid to say. That's so sweet. Sweet song. Can you imagine your...

the credence guys or like, there's so much out there for them. All they have to do is be like, yeah, dude, I'm sorry. Whatever. It's all good. I mean, right. It's so stories are wild. I was just reading like a Peter Buck interview where like, he says like, you know, it's not even like REM broke up. We just, we just don't really tour anymore, but we still are good friends. We, and I'm like, how can you resist like being like REM that still gets along and all you got to do is like,

play these awesome songs to like to have the world just like shower you with so much love or the the jimmy page yeah uh you know when when uh when zeppelin reunited i'm obviously without john bonham but but when they reunited for some big thing and it was like five years ago and they had all these offers for billions and trillions they just couldn't they just couldn't i don't peter gabriel bro come on man well you want you want him to get back with genesis

No, the really, the one I want of all of them, if I could have one of them for sure would be Roger Waters back in Pink Floyd. Yeah. David Gilmour back in the band would be... Yeah, yeah. That would be so cool. That'd be the one. I love them both, but I saw...

The wall tour, not the Pink Floyd one, the one Roger Waters does now from time to time. It's the best concert experience of my life. Yeah. Our producer, Jonathan Wilson is, is actually playing guitar and doing a lot of the Gilmore vocals. You're kidding. Yeah. He did the last tour. He didn't do that wall tour where it was just the wall show. He did that last album cycle tour, but they do a lot of songs. Yeah. The last two years. If you saw him the last two years, you saw him. Oh yeah. Bro. You're married to Mandy Moore. Yeah. Congratulations on that.

Well done, sir. I was, I was, um, the break right before I got on this call, I was fighting with a car seat. Um, we're going to have a kid in like weeks, uh,

I'm so excited. It's been creeping up in the songwriting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure it has been. The next record will be like pure Raffy, just like me and my boy. Dude, do me a favor and write a bedtime lullaby. Yeah, I'll try. That's what we need. There's an obscure, it's either Beatles or John Lennon one that's such a part of putting my son to bed. Is it Beautiful Boy? It's not Beautiful Boy. Okay.

And it might even be them covering something. And I might even be imagining it. But we're way overdue for a new bedtime nighty night. I mean, I can only hear House on Pooh Corner so many more times. Yeah.

How old is your kid? Oh, dude. My youngest is 25. Oh, wow. And my oldest... And by the way, you're... You're still putting him to bed? Yep. Oh, yes, but in a very different way. And we'll be right back after this.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers, passport. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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Nothing affects you more than getting married and having a kid. It affected my acting. I can only imagine how it affects your songwriting. Yeah, I mean, I've really welcomed it. I've definitely had some of those guys that wanted to, some friends that wanted to kind of project their experience onto me. One friend that was like, man, when I got married and had kids, I just stopped writing. So look forward to that. And I was like, whoa. But honestly, a lot of my favorite writers, older and new,

they incorporate that in such beautiful ways. Like, um, like they don't, they're not afraid to be the 40 year old songwriter writing about what it means to be a husband or a wife or a mother or a father. Um, and I, I, and at this point it's like what I resonate with most. Like when I go back to the, the, the writers and the records that really fired me up when I was a 22 year old single person, it's like, Oh, I see why I loved it so much, but it's not,

telling me about myself currently. Whereas guys like Loudon Wainwright, definitely Jason Isbell right now, they're not afraid to write about where they are. And that is so great for me as just a fan. And it's just looking to them as that sort of guidance as a growing writer. Because our first four records is almost 100% songs of...

longing or breakup songs. And, and then after that, it's like, okay, how do you get, how do you start to like wind the lens? Another one that I, another like hero in this respect is Elvis Costello. Cause it's, he's got so good at occupying other people's perspectives, which is in my opinion, I don't know if this is the fair definition,

I feel like that's the mark of a more mature, advanced writer is when you can like, I'm going to write a song about an experience I did not have. And I feel like that's harder to do when you're younger. So at this point, like, yeah, like a lot of our songs are, I still want to like,

I don't know. I don't think about this, but I still hope that there's some sort of like cohesive, like worldview or, or, or attitude that makes it seem like it's coming from a certain viewpoint or certain individual. But I don't, I'm not, I'm not going to tell people like, you know, I'm not going to like air the dirty laundry between like,

you know, Mandy and I who have like a really nice, normal, happy marriage. Like, it's just like, that's, I don't want to go there anymore the way I did. Yeah. And at a certain point, I mean, I feel like that's a, that's a, a mark of a great author as well. It's like, you know,

Some of our favorite authors, they don't do anything but write. I mean, how else do you – there's a certain amount of time you have to spend doing your thing. So by default, your life probably isn't that crazy. So you have to write about other people. Otherwise, like your songs and your stories would be very boring.

Yeah, I used to worry like, well, aren't I supposed to like go out there and live and stay out all night? And like, and isn't that what it means to be a guy in a band? And it's like, oh, no, I actually it's maybe it might not be romantic. I might not feel like a rock and roll attitude, but actually being home and and devoting to being the best partner I can be the best person I can be. And then and then, yeah, reading and writing all the time is what's going to make me a better songwriter than like staying out late with my pals. Yeah.

And it's also great for the people who are listening because that's how your audience grows with you. Because otherwise, the audience outgrows you or you outgrow the audience. And like, you know, I love Springsteen. He's a guy. And what I love about Bruce is he writes, he's always writing a decade ahead of me. Yeah. So it's an actual roadpost relationship.

Because at first it was having kids. Bruce had kids five years before I did. And it was, there were songs about kids and they moved me and I love him and he's great. And now, you know, Bruce is 70 something, something crazy. And he's writing about mortality and, you know, age and, you know,

And again, I'm like right behind him. And those songs are speaking to me. I love Born to Run. I love all that stuff. But that's from another time, another era. And then maybe you get lucky and you write a timeless one that has no clock on it at all. It's not about any part of your life. It just is. Yeah, like Blown in the Wind or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. I also think you get, you guys capture, your relationship with Los Angeles is hilarious to me because it's so on the nose. It's so like at once embittered and jaded and full of love and affection. And it's, LA's a trippy place. Like whenever, you know,

people ask like how you feel about it. It's like, it's, it is all of the things that people want to hate on it. That like all the criticisms it gets, those are true. I can't really argue with them, but it's also what comes, what you love. Like, like this is the kind of place where like the way I don't always describe it. It's like, it's a, everyone has this, we've seen too much attitude. Like if you live in LA and one of your friends says like,

I just got hired for that pilot. I'm going to be in that show. Your LA friends are going to be like, cool, let me know how that goes. Like, if you lived anywhere else, it would be like, holy shit, that's incredible. That's a huge deal. And here it's just like, we don't care until we should care. And it's the same with being in a band. I feel like a slave. Just because we're in a band, I would imagine it's the same as an actor. It's like you...

I'm pissed that I had to, you know, spend as much money as I did on a house, even though like I could be living in like a fucking castle in Nebraska. But then again, like I, I absolutely have to be here and I love this city, but I love it. Not necessarily because of the, you know, any of the obvious things such as the climate or anything, it's more just the access to culture. And it's like, if you want to play music or be an actor, like you have to be close to here.

I do find though, like I was talking to my friend who recently moved out of here. I find that it does. And I guess this is like the, what we were talking about, like the back and forth, like it creates a complicated relationship with ambition where, especially during this pandemic where I found myself cause I can't tour, you know, we can, I'm writing songs, but we can't do what we love to do. And so I'm like hanging out at home and,

through a global pandemic and reading these books and watching these movies and telling myself like, well, you like reading books. Like, why don't you write one? What's your problem? Or you like movies. Why don't you try to write one? What's your problem? And I feel like if I lived in like, you know,

an awesome place like Billings, Montana, I wouldn't be giving myself shit about like writing a book or a movie. I would just be like, I love books and movies and I'm going to make music when I can again. But here in LA, you're just kind of conditioned to feel like,

Why aren't you doing something? Why aren't you doing that? Why are you doing more at times? I think that's what, at least for myself, it's what makes me any good at what I do is, is the reality that like, there, there are a hundred folks behind me that are, that want, you know, half the opportunity that we've been afforded. So it's like, it,

Yeah, I feel like a slave to this rat race in a way where it's like I have to get up and be productive every day or else I feel like somebody is doing it better than I am or working harder than I am, out-competing me. And that's not necessarily the healthiest thing at a certain point. No, I 100% relate.

I mean, because there's always the, I always think about, well, I could do my fourth cousin once removed at John Cougar Mellon camp and just move to Bloomington and be the king of, I mean, can you imagine the king? I think he must own the town, right? At this point. And, um,

Yeah. We discovered we were cousins recently. It was hilarious. Oh, that was recent. Wow. Recently. Yeah. I know it was never in the family. You'd think it'd be like, Hey, you know, you're related to little pink houses, right? I mean, I'm down with pink houses as much as the next guy. It's fucking great shit, but no, only recently did we, and then when I met him, cause my, both of our kids graduated in the same class at Duke and that's the, and so that's how I met him. And I was like,

I heard a rumor and he was like, yeah, yeah, no, it's true. He's like so funny because he's very gruff. And well, I mean, his nickname is the little bastard. That's I'm making up. I'm not telling tells out of school. That's that's his nickname. He's great. But he's like, yeah, now it's my mother's is is a second cousin of your grandma and your father's. It was very convoluted. But yeah, so you could always you could always pick your Billings, Montana. You could be the king of Billings, Montana. That sounds really fun.

Maybe at a certain point in my life. I feel like I get bored pretty quick. I mean, Billings is amazing, but like, I don't know. We're from here and like, I think I just get bored. Well, let's hear, if you don't mind, let's hear time spent in Los Angeles. Let's hear how you really feel about Los Angeles. And more specifically, the females who populate Los Angeles. I don't have any experience with that, so I'm really interested. Yeah.

These days my friends don't seem to know me Without my suitcase in my hand And when I'm standing still I seem to disappear But maybe that's how I found you Maybe that taught me exactly what I want Maybe needing you this far away from home Is what makes it all so clear

That you've got that special kind of sadness You've got that tragic set of charms That only comes from time spent in Los Angeles Makes me wanna wrap you in my arms When people ask me where I come from To see what that says about a man I only end up giving bad directions

They'd never leave them there at all. It is something written in the headlights. It is something swimming in my drink. And if I were the moon, it'd be exactly where I'd fall. Cause you've got that special kind of sadness. You've got that tragic set of charms.

That only comes from time spent in Los Angeles Makes me wanna wrap you in my arms I used to think someone would love me For all these places that I've been And the dirt that I've been gathering Deep beneath my nails But now I know what I've been missing And I'm going home to make it mine

And I'll be battening the hatches and pulling in the sails. Cause you've got that special kind of sadness. You've got that tragic set of charms that can only come from time spent in Los Angeles. Makes me want to rip in my arm. Yeah, I think I've met that girl.

I've met that girl. Not the girl you want to marry. Yeah. Nope. But definitely the one you want to write a song about. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of songs about her. A big thrill of mine was getting to meet Sharona.

Of my Sharona. My Sharona. Wow. Yes. It was a very big moment for me. Her name was really Sharona? Sharona. She's realtor, still around. And it was not like an apocryphal story of like, she came and said, hey, by the way, I'm Sharona. Doug Figer, God bless him, died a couple of years ago. He was one of my great friends of the knack who wrote the song. Was like, hey, I want you to meet Sharona, man. Oh, wow. Wow.

Wow. I was hoping you were going to say like, it says it on her business card as a real estate agent. Well, our company is my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my,

Oh, I didn't know that. You guys didn't know? No. Wait, but those dudes were all married at that point, right? Wait a minute. Are you insinuating? I mean, I don't, maybe I'm wrong. I just finished the Jeff Piccaro bio like yesterday. Oh, no way. I have to get that. Yeah. It's awesome. I mean, it's just like a lot of stories about, about those, those seven records. So explain to me why, um,

Why that whole drums thing on Rosanna is so gnarly and that it's like legendary. So I'm not a drummer. I don't understand the technicalities of it. But between the Purdy shuffle on that Steely Dan tune. Yeah, Home at Last, I think it is. And this one, they're the most famous like pop thing. Explain it to me. So he was obsessed with Purdy. Yeah.

There was, I think, a King Curtis track that when he was 19, Jim Keltner showed him and it changed his life. So I guess when, I think it was David Peich wrote that song and brought it to Jeff. And the way that that band would record is whoever wrote the song would generally produce the song. So for that track, he was like, I'm thinking of Bo Diddley thing.

And Jeff was doing, you know, five, six sessions a day at that point. He was like the biggest drummer in town.

And he had this shuffle. He was ripping that Purdy Shuffle, I think, pretty unabashedly on every record. And there's also that, what's the Zeppelin song? Oh, yeah. On Fool in the Rain. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's such a great. So that's kind of a similar feel. So what differentiates that from Home at Last is that the

bass drum figure that boom boom boom boom boom boom boom that's that's like a kind of like a New Orleans second line Bo Diddley feel so he was putting that under that that's that type of like triplet shuffle that's that's why can you beatbox the whole thing I don't think I could oh that would be amazing

But one thing I was really interested in now that we're off on a toto kick to hear was that Africa was written around that beat. And it was a two bar loop that he started playing one day with the percussionist Lenny Castro. And they found two bars and looped it. And then they wrote that entire song. And Jeff actually had...

Um, he had the concepts in mind and like had, had, had, uh, conveyed it to Paish and they wrote and they just wrote Africa and it was like their biggest hit. Do they talk in the book about, um, the Rob Lowe project that they wrote and produced? No, but I'm, by the way, I'm being, I'm being dead serious. It's a, it's a career, uh,

There was a moment where I was confused in my career and somehow I got it in my head that maybe because I love music so much and I'm passable, passable, barely. But I found myself with Toto in the studio. Wow. Recording with pay. It was with Paige, mostly with Paige.

um and which studio the one in the in the one in the house in the valley they had because him and page both had one was it the the villa or it looked like a tutor it was like a tutor like villa they like i guess record one was they they both modeled their studios exactly after a studio in the valley it was uh

Let's just put it this way. Everybody involved was inches away from getting sober. It was sort of my... About to turn that corner. It was my last hurrah. And what's funny is as we're talking, I'm moving out of my house and

I found the tape. Oh, dude, please say this. But I got one other that's really wild, though, because then I wasn't so sure that it was happening there. So I did another session with Richard Perry. Whoa. Wow. That's a trip. Will you please release that to the world? I feel like every- I mean, no, they're horrible. No.

Wait, so it's all of Toto, the entire band? It was, so it was Picaro, Page. I think it was basically just the two of them. Okay.

Wow. That's incredible. They started it. So, I mean, that's the core of the band there. Yeah, it was fun. It was really fun. Listen, it was a fun, it was a fun thing. And it taught me, no, stick to acting kid. Did either of them, cause it's, they make Jeff out to really be like a straight shooter. Was he just like, Hey man, this isn't your bag.

No, he didn't say much. It was, this was, this was, Paige was going to be my, you know, he was going to be my guru. He's quite a guru. He's going to bring Rob Lowe to the Top 40 radio.

Thank God it didn't happen. One, one day. Yeah. One day they're sitting there. Well, it's funny. Actually, I was, you, you reminded me, I've never actually told anybody this, but you were talking about how, when songs are written about like famous people and they just don't know it. That's our, our, this isn't that crazy of a thing, but my,

My girlfriend, we were making North Hills, our first record, right? We broke up before we started recording it. But one of the songs I wrote was about her having... It was just like full-blown denial. She didn't want anything else to do with me. I was totally kicked to the curb. So the song isn't actually true. But...

There's a song called My Girl to Me. And it's about basically like, yeah, man, you can... I mean, I hope you guys are having fun, but she's still my girl to me. That's the essence of the whole thing. But when she broke up with me, she started...

She started dating Joaquin Phoenix for like four years. They were together for a long time. So that song technically is like me speaking to him. We met years and years and years later. Oh, that's amazing. For like a brief second. But it was sort of this funny thing. Like I've thought about that before we were playing it. Like people probably get a kick out of the fact that this is weirdly a song from Taylor to Joaquin. Yeah.

That should have been the title. You took the words right out of my mouth. Back in the days when they did parenthetical titles. Yeah. It always felt like that was the record label going, I don't like that title. You're putting this title in as a parentheses title. Right, right, right. So everyone wins. Yeah, it's not catchy. Guys, this has been so fantastic. I really appreciate you guys doing this. I want to...

with my new favorite song off the new album. Me especially. And because I think it's everything you were talking about in terms of, you know, now you're writing to a new phase in your life. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I appreciate this song getting some love. I actually haven't sung the song since the record came out. Come on. Appreciate the request. I mean, we would have if we got the tour. We haven't toured. Yeah. I'm the king of the deep cuts. Yeah. Yeah.

As far as I could tell, I was the center of the universe. The favorite stepchild of our mother earth in every camera's dream. Till something broke the spell and the cold hard facts I was hiding from were at the mercy of a pendulum and I was smashed.

Documents and names

And I twitch away from what they really mean In the shadow of the in-between That surrounds us on all sides You can look the other way In fact, that's all I did until recently Till the expiration of my amnesty Left me nowhere else to hide

Let's try and have some fun tonight. Let's act like it could always be this good. Like we're just as young as we used to be. And it goes for everyone but me especially. A flatlining learning curve on the last leg with low reserves.

A desperado that lost his nerve Trying now to serve Teach me how to serve 'Cause we're not as young as we used to be And it goes for everyone But me especially Why am I still the youngest guy my age? Why am I still reading the same page?

I know it's hard for everyone, but me especially, and you especially.

There's a lot of good lyrics, but why am I still the youngest guy my age might be. Might be the one. Thanks, man. I've contemplated that many, many times. My cat was lurking around the computer and the mic that whole time. I was waiting for him to just kind of pounce and start making noise and stuff. I'm glad that didn't happen, but...

He could have sang some of the harmonies. He would have. That's very his style. I, I hope everybody listening checks out the, uh, the album versions of, of the songs. They're amazing acoustic, but they're also like, I can hear the harmonies and hear the, the guitar. I miss the guitar. Yeah. It's so good. The guitar tones are so good. Yeah.

So good. I mean, I know we're not quite Toto, but anytime you want to get back in the studio and start and get the band back together, we could be actors in surgery. Get that old band back. I mean, all right, I'm down to clown. You know, that's what I need to do. I need to have you guys come act on Lone Star or something and then I'll come and you can bury me, my harmony. You know, you can give me the Linda McCartney treatment. You can put me

Yeah. Hand you to the left and mute you. Yeah. Story of my life. I made it to the left and mute me. This is great, guys. This is so much fun. Absolutely, man. Thanks for having us. All right, man. All right, guys. Thank you, guys. All right, dude. Thank you. See you later. Bye. Wow. I just had the time of my life. I hope you guys did too.

Um, those guys are so talented. God, I could listen to their, them sing and play for forever and geek out. Um, and I loved that they didn't know that Rosanna was about Rosanna Arquette. Duh. Come on now. Get in the music business, Dawes.

Anyway, thanks for tuning in. I'm in the best mood now and I'm just going to zen out and sit in traffic and be happy about it. I'm going to be happy. Nothing can piss me off today because I just had Dawes, a big dose of Dawes. We've come to the end of the podcast. This is when the magic happens. It is time for the lowdown line. Hello, you've reached literally in our lowdown line.

where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep.

Mr. Lowe, this is Laura from Texas. Not only are you attractive on the outside, your love for your sons and wife make you even more attractive, for sure. Have you ever interviewed your wife or sons on your podcast? I looked back and didn't see that, but wanted to know if that was something that you would be interested in doing. We'd love to hear more about them and love to hear their side on what you're like as a father and husband.

Love your podcast. Keep it going. Bye. Hey, Laura. Well, first of all, thank you. That's really, really sweet and makes me feel great. That is a great idea to interview my boys and Cheryl. That's a great idea. By the way, you can see us on Family Feud coming up. It was Cheryl's obsessed with Family Feud, and she's impossible to surprise. Impossible.

And I managed to get her to the set of Family Feud without knowing where she was going, only for her to discover that she was playing in it. And it airs on June 6th. So if you really want to see the lows in action, that would be a good taste. But in the meantime, I actually am going to – you should be the producer of this podcast because no one else in my highly paid team has ever come up with that idea, you'd think. But no, you did.

And I am going to do that and I will do that. And you're absolutely right. I do adore those three lunatics, my sons and my wife. And I've always felt if I could stomach it, if I could stomach doing a reality show of my family, it would make the Kardashians look like romper room. So maybe some of that will come out when we do this interview. Thanks for listening. All right. I'll see you all next week on Literally. Literally.

You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe. Produced and engineered by me, Devin Tory-Bryant.

Executive produced by Rob Lowe for Lowe Profile. Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. And Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blair. Talent producer, Jennifer Samples. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

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