Jennifer Grey: Funner is Funner
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Hello, welcome to Literally It Is Me, Rob Lowe, or It Is I, Rob Lowe. I don't know which. My mother would have known. It is me, Rob Lowe? Somebody can call in to the lowdown line and let me know which it is. Anyway, I'm here, and today we have one of my oldest pals, Jennifer Gray. Baby. She has seen and done it all.

All Red Dawn, Ferris Bueller's Day Off. She has a great book out about her life out of the corner. She's I mean, from growing up with Joel Gray winning the Academy Award for Cabaret to finding your way through Hollywood, through so many different things. Really, really interesting life. Really, really interesting person and super funny. And and and a warning. She and I are very silly together.

So I'm just apologizing in advance for the silliness that will will ensue. We'll try to behave ourselves. Jennifer Gray. Funner is a word, right? It is for me. Is it for you? My English teacher mom, God bless her soul, would say, no, it's more fun. It's not funner.

Right. But I think funner is funner. Literally. You know what? It's funner when you say it because it's wrong. I have to compliment you on your glasses that you're wearing. Dear listener, she's wearing like kind of Robert Redford, 1970s Ron Galella paparazzi photo. Google that. Yes. Thank you. It's basically what I'm saying. It's handsome, powerful.

Entertainment figure circa 1971. Yeah, just around the time that I was getting into trouble. At the Dalton School. No, no. Dalton School was 74. 71 was Malibu still. So where were you living in Malibu? I was living on Old Malibu Road and in the colony. We had rentals, and so we would move to some little furnished rentals. It was funky. Were you there then? No.

I got to Malibu in 76. Oh, so we just missed each other. So I was... You went to Webster? No, I went to Malibu Park Junior High. I got there in 76. Me too, but Webster was six. I went to Malibu Park Junior High in seventh. That's so crazy. Well, did you really read the book or did you skim it? Because it's all written about... How many...

Come on, dude. Come on. You just looked for yourself. I mostly looked for myself. Yeah, and you didn't find yourself. And you know what? You got off light. I got off light. I owe you big time. Of course, I read the book. Well, there's a whole thing about Malibu Park Junior High and the spin the bottle and my first kiss and all the kids. Okay, who was your first kiss? Maybe I know him. Mark Buck.

Mark Buck. Oh, because I'm older than you. Yeah. But we both had Mr. Vincent at Malibu Park, right? Who was the legendary history teacher. He was the best. It was social studies, I think we called it, right? Social studies in those days. He was incredible.

Everybody loved him. He was one of those amazing teachers that changed people's lives and made you feel seen and smart and at least made me feel seen and smart. And just felt so lucky to have him in a public school in Malibu in the 70s, which was really the Wild West, wasn't it? It was the Wild West. And so in Malibu Park Junior High, it was 7th, 8th, 9th grade.

If we include you, who was a couple years different time frame. I was in Sean's class. So it would have been you, Sean Penn, Charlie Sheen. Was Charlie in your class? He was a year younger, two years younger than me. Emilio Estevez. And he was your age, right? He was a year older. Okay. So you were the cream in the sandwich, the Oreo cookie. I was.

Who else? Holly Robinson. There was a young actress named Daniel Spencer who was on a big sitcom. Was it What's Happening? She was on something like that. And I think Robert, I know Robert Downey Jr. was went to my high school. I don't know if he was actually at.

Malibu Park. Did you guys go to Pali or Samoa? Santa Monica High School, Samoa. Yeah, it's Malibu in that. In fact, it's my great obsession trying to figure out how to tell the story properly.

of what Malibu was in the seventies. Why don't you read that chapter more carefully? You might feel like you don't have to, because I really described the straw hat pizza. Okay. Okay. Okay. The Swenson's dude, you were, you know what you were looking for? You were looking for some clickbait names in there. That's what you were doing.

And you found them. But what you didn't do is you didn't really just luxuriate in Straw Hat Pizza Parlor, Market Basket, and Swenson's, and Malibu Cinema. Those things popped up while I was there. And how about the Malibu Coffee Shop? Oh, yeah. The Colony Coffee Shop, where you'd go to get the cheeseburger and shake for the special treat. Oh, I worked at the... My very first paying job was at the Malibu Cinema.

Stop it. For that mean owner. Tell me, tell me what happened. I know nothing. I didn't work there. So the Malibu cinema in those days, what was amazing about it, and this is people think Malibu, fancy movie star, Hollywood. Oh, it was so not fancy. So not, and so not Hollywood. We wouldn't get a movie at the Malibu cinema until it had been out for months. I mean, months, months, months. I love it.

And to the guy's credit, Iran, he hired local Malibu teens. So Holly Robinson ran the concession stand. Come on. Oh, yeah. One hundred percent. And Piper, her friend Piper, who is another great, fun girl that we all went to school with. They ran sort of the tickets and concessions. And I threaded the projector. And is that a euphemism?

I, I, I thread, it was a platter system. I thought it would be like threading a projector in like at school. Whereas like, like it's not, it's, it's a platter. It's on a big plate. It's very, very complicated. And you know me, I am the least handy.

You have a lot of crazy skills. I wouldn't be calling you for handy. No. Would you trust me to thread a fucking projector for a packed house? The pressure was on, right? Oh, the pressure was on. And one night, I'll never forget, the movie was Agatha starring Dustin Hoffman. Yeah.

The very well-known Dustin Hoffman movie, Agatha. Google that one. Why do I love you so much? I love you. I love you too. This is going to be so... This will be the longest podcast I've ever done because we've got... We have so much to talk about. Anyway, I threaded the reels of the movie in the wrong order. No, you did not. I did. And it's a thriller because it's Agatha, right? It's a thriller. And... Whoa, that's crazy. So the...

last reel of the movie played somewhere in the middle of the movie. Oh, stop it. And you know, complete with ending credits. That's insane. And then, you know, and then the curtains closed because the movie's over and then the curtains opened and it went back to the middle of the movie. I got fired immediately. Stop it. That's the craziest shit I've ever heard. Yeah. I was not good at that. I also got fired from being a bus boy at the Nantucket light show.

Oh, man. I remember that place. I can picture the logo right now on PCH. It's now Nobu. It's now Nobu. And Chart House was in Moonshadows. Is Moonshadows where Nobu is now? No, Moonshadows still exists in the same place. Do you remember that it was Chart House and Moonshadows was kind of like the only game in town? And then I guess Nantucket Light, which I didn't know about. Which, of course, is the only place that hired me. I applied to all places.

And the fancy pants were like, you weren't afraid to work. No, I wasn't afraid. Never been afraid. Your mom was a teacher. Yeah. I was always, I was, I've worked since I was 15. I just got fired from everything other than anything show business related. Everything. Yeah. I got fired sometimes too. Yeah. I dropped, I dropped this record producer, the ham hocks at this soul food restaurant that I was working at in the theater district in New York.

They rinsed them off and put them back on a plate and fired me and told me I had to pay for the plates. You weren't cut out for that kind of shit. You know what? I waitressed so many years, so many years and never improved.

And I was working at the saloon on, you know, everyone was on skates and I can't add. I mean, I just couldn't handle the big, the pressure of the, you know, the Lincoln center rush. Yeah. Waiting tables is no joke. It is really hard. No, it is super hard. Did you ever do it? I never got that far. I never got, I never got promoted. I was a bus boy. I was a bus boy. Oh yeah. I was a bus boy at the Cottonwood cafe.

I couldn't get the real gig. I had to like, you know, pay my dues in the kitchen expediting. Oh, never made it, never graduated to waiter. And there was a great, and there was a, um, Holly Robinson's, uh, mother, Dolores Robinson was a huge, uh,

um, manager of actors. And I would, I would slip her notes when she would come in, get me out of here. Seriously? Like with an exclamation point, like scrawled, like, like, like somebody like who'd been kidnapped, like a kidnap, like Jonestown. Oh no. That's so funny. When they slipped the notes to the, all right, there's so much to talk about. Where do we begin? Um,

First of all, I believe I saw your father in a Kenley Players production. Is that possible? 100%. Did I remember John Kenley from my childhood? I think he was a little scary.

He was frightening. I write about him in my book. I guess you need to be sending me your Kenley Players chapter. The Kenley Players was a summer stock in Ohio. It was the only place you could see professional actors do anything. He was scary looking, but he was apparently the nicest man because I'm obsessed with John Kenley. In fact, Chad Lowe, my brother, was doing a documentary on John.

And then John wouldn't, would not consent to be interviewed on camera and it died. But I'm obsessed with the John Kenley story. That's, oh, I want to know everything you have to say. Oh, it's an amazing, I mean, he's a revolutionary. He gave so many actors their starts. He created the Modern Touring Company. He created it. But he was kind. Super kind. Loved actors, gave everything. But, you know, so...

Is this true that you once sang show tunes at Hal Prince's holiday party with Stephen Sondheim playing the piano? I didn't myself. I was part of a throng.

Still, you did it.

How Prince directed the original production of Cabaret? Yes. He did. If you read the book, you would have seen that he directed. This is going to be a long interview. Honey, if I can't give you shit, you can. I know. It's very true. And guess what? You know what? As you said, your life is not your own. You're doing two series simultaneously. It is true. And two podcasts.

you know what? You're just, you're, you know, you're a miracle. That is a miracle. I do feel like a miracle. I mean, it's a miracle that I'm even here. I, so I did, my dad had been directed by Hal Prince and,

um, in the original cabaret on Broadway. And that was when I would go and sit backstage when he would be applying his makeup as the MC. And that was from age six to eight. And then we moved to, you know, Malibu and then he won the Oscar for the movie. And then we came back to New York. And so it was just my family's, uh,

uh, community. My parents, my dad's community were the, the princess and they would have this party. That was the most epic party with every, every Broadway legend that's that ever existed. And it was everyone said by the end of the night, everyone was standing around the grand piano and,

singing show tunes. And it was sometimes Larry Grossman was playing the piano and, but it was like, you know, everybody. Oh, everybody. Everybody. Patti LuPone. Yeah. Bernadette Peters, Jerry Orbach, Carol Channing. It was just, you know, that it was like that. And, and, you know, it's, it's pretty interesting to grow up around that kind of virtuosity and,

Because it makes you feel like, oh, this is a possible thing. These are real people that I know. It's not like some, it doesn't feel that distant. And then at the same time, you're like, I better be good. Yeah. I better be really good to be able to hang. So it's like an interesting pressure and also inspiration. And also it felt like, oh,

These are my people already. All I need to do is just be the best in the world. And then I couldn't really sing or dance well enough to do them. So I'm going to like musical auditions with Tommy tune and just make a fool of myself. Tommy tune, huge Kenley players person. I think John Kenley gave Tommy the first opportunity to direct. I'm pretty sure.

Really? God, I love, I love, I never thought of you as musical comedy. Oh. I mean, I mean, I was, you know, on the Oscar, I think we were around for the Oscars together. You saw me do the Oscars and went, well, there is a guy who is not musical comedy. You know what? I didn't judge you. I just thought you were amazing and cute and brave and cool. So I don't, I don't think of it that way.

that way. That was the spirit of it. I didn't know that you came from Kenley Players stock. That's really interesting. Well, I never, I auditioned for, I never actually got a show. I auditioned a bunch. You knew all of this and you didn't get a show? That was what I did. I would audition for Evita

I auditioned for Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. I auditioned for Merrily We Roll Along. I auditioned for really big people, and I really had no business being there. I don't believe that for a minute. Jennifer, wait a minute. Okay, look. Here are the categories in musical theater. There are singers, and then there are actors who can sing, right? Well, I sang in one thing.

I sang in Bloodhounds of Broadway with Madonna. I did a duet with her.

But that's a movie, which is different. It's a movie, but I did record it and it was my voice and it was my singing. But for some reason, singing on the, you know, just the boards. I only did one play. Did you do plays on Broadway? I did one play on Broadway and I did a really long running play on the West End. What did you do? On Broadway, I did...

Tony Randall. Do you remember Tony Randall? He started the National Actors Theater. Of course. Tony Randall, you must come. And I did a Fado. It was a French farce called. Oh, fancy. A Little Hotel on the Side with Lynn Redgrave, Pax and Whitehead. These are legends. I am so impressed. And Tony. And yeah. How old were you when you did that? That was my Broadway debut. That's a major. 27.

Hang on. You're already a movie star. 20. Oh yeah. 27. It was, it was, it was the same weekend Wayne's world opened. Wow. Um,

And then I did A Few Good Men with Aaron Sorkin. You know, that's what we did for a long time. And that was in the 2000s. Wow, that was great, Rob. I never realized, I didn't realize, because you and I became friends like another, it wasn't for, it was not for a while, until a while later. And I just, I was so obsessed with you. I mean, I think we've worked together twice. And I can't tell you anything about the movies we did, except for the fact that

It was some of the best laughs I've ever had in my entire life. Same. Same. Seriously, I've never, like, I would do anything just to hang out with you because I know that you and I go there. We go there and we do not, we do not play.

And I don't know. I just find you to be one of the most hilarious. I mean, like, I just, all I think about you is just that you're the best raconteur and the greatest. I don't know. I don't know. It's just, you're my favorite comedy. Well, that's saying something. I, I, I mean, I like Gene Wilder, you know, I like young Frankenstein and I like you. So that's pretty good. And, and listen, you grew up around,

like the great of the grades, like Mike Nichols, the greatest rock, rock on tour. Okay. So you know what? He's the other one. Come on, please just say this. You can't touch him. Okay. Fuck. I wanted you to say, hold on. Let me just tell you, you are the young Mike Nichols when it comes to rock on tour. That's all I need to know. Here's the thing. You can aim for it. You're not there yet, but you're real. Actually, you know what? I take it back.

The thing is, when he would do it, he would have his eyebrows going crazy and he would say, my favorite two words are, it's canceled. The only words I like better than it's canceled is, it's canceled and you're still getting paid.

Like I can quote him all day long, which I can't do you because all I can do is imitations of you doing imitations of Michael Black doing imitations of Betty Davis talking about Natalie Wood. Yes. That's all I can do is you. I imitate you doing imitations of three other people. Because you brought it up and it's such an obscure reference. And this is definitely the point where people are like, what am I listening to? Michael Black was one of my first agents.

and he represented me and Betty Davis towards the end. I'm talking very end. Very end. And they lived in the same apartment building.

that beautiful, um, old gorgeous building on Havenhurst and sunset. The colonial colonial. Yes. And, and Betty Davis would complain because she, she could smell the McDonald's French fries from the McDonald's that went up on the next thing. And she would, she would, she would, we need to, I haven't done a Betty Davis in forever. This is going to be awesome. You can warm up. You do a warmup. The stench of the French fries. Okay.

And also, what about the Joan Crawford? Just do that and then we'll be back. What was the Joan Crawford one? Okay, so they had this horrible, combative, competitive thing. Joan Crawford, I believe. Of course they did. Whatever happened to Baby Jane? The movie, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? When Joan Crawford died. Oh, there was a movie where there was a problem with the credit card.

And Betty Davis and she, they would like Joan Crawford got like, she wanted a box around her name.

And when she died, she said, she finally got her box. Do you not remember that one? I do now. I do now. Oh, my God. And then she said, they say you're supposed to say something good about the dead. She's dead. Good. Do you remember now? I do now. This is why I don't remember anything about the movies we did. This is all I remember. She finally got her box.

That might be the meanest, most amazing. Wait, I'm laughing. Sorry.

We did. Yeah, we the movies. And see, that's the other thing is like everybody goes into a project with all great intentions and you're lucky if you get anything out of it and to have like the memories that we have. Do you remember when we did that Cinderella thing in Paris? And and do you remember when I couldn't stop laughing because you would you would try to make me laugh? Yes. And then I would go I would go off and then I couldn't stop.

And do you remember when I was looking at you and you had this one line and you would get to the line and you'd look at me with that twinkle in your eye and I'd be like, no, no, it's coming. I could just feel myself. And then I couldn't stop. Like they were so angry.

They were so angry because what happened was I was new. This is how I know how long ago it was. It was, it's, it will be 30, 32. You ready for this? Exactly. Two years ago because I was brand new. And as was I. So we're both newly sober 32 years ago. And I was at a point where, because I was newly sober and so full of the pink cloud and,

had a new lease on life that I did not give one, excuse me, fuck about anything. And I was told you just have to be self-supporting through your own contribution. So you take the job you're given. I'm like, I don't want to do this job. And they're like, well, they got Rob Lowe and they're giving you a lot of money. I was like, okay, okay. So I just go because I'm told this is what I'm supposed to do. And that's what I did. I was like, great. I'm going to shoot in Paris.

A movie in Paris, you're doing it, and we paid a fortune. It was not a good... There are certain people who are obsessed with that movie. People love it. I thought no one would ever see it, of course. And it was hanging around a lot. I thought it was just going to be on French cable. Me too. Of course.

It was something that when my parents, when my friends were raising their kids, they're like, my daughter is upset. We watched this. I don't know. Was it on Disney? Where was it? It was something. It would not go away. It's called If the Shoe Fits. The fact that I'm comfortable talking about it. That's kind of like you just said that so people can look at it. That's just a terrible thing to do. I am either one of two things, either fantastic in it.

Or absolutely should never act again. I mean, I really think the two of us, I don't know what we were doing, but it was so painful because I felt like we were both trying to make it good. And I guess people loved it. I don't know if it's because we were good in it. I don't know what it is. Do you remember when we made the lobster dance at that dinner scene?

Oh, not till you just said that. Were you doing the thing? Yes, I was making the lobster dance to make you laugh. Why were you doing that? To make me laugh? Just to make me laugh, because I didn't care. I was just being so nuts. Oh, you really did not care. And I was crying every day. I was like going to the American church, going to the meetings. And I was just like crying my eyes out and going, ah. But I was the kind of thing like, okay, well, I guess that's why I got that job, because he's sober. And we could be together in Paris and not drink.

It was, no, it was really, I mean, I had a, I had a sober companion. You did? What was his name? It was a guy. Joe. Yeah. And you also had your wife and your baby and your son. No, that's the second. Your youngest. Your oldest. That's the second movie. Oh, that was in, that was in Canada. No, Cheryl, don't you remember the, Cheryl came to visit the day. She came to visit because we were walking down. I remember walking along the Seine and she was your makeup artist, right? Right. And I played a,

clothing designer in it salvatore valentino and i and i modeled my character after bijan we tell people who bijan was just bijan for people anybody from la who's grown up in la knows who bijan is bijan had billboards in la he was yelling even on the billboards he

He was literally like, he was like. Like man tan, but he was already dark skinned. And always screaming. Screaming on the billboards, Bijan. And nobody knew why he was famous or where on the shit was sold. Or why he was screaming. And I modeled my character after Bijan. I forgot that.

And so there were models around, right? And Cheryl came to the set and there was one model paying an inordinate amount of attention to me. And Cheryl literally flew in from the United States, walked in. I didn't see her arrive. The model was adjusting the zipper on my jacket.

Cheryl took one look at it and left for the airport to fly home. And I was able to stop. Do I remember this? I don't remember this drama. Was I privy to this? You might not have been privy to this. It was ugly. Who was the model? Was she hot? She was the, she plays the model in the movie. I don't remember. Oh, the one who Bijan character of Salvatore was, it was his muse or something. That's right. Oh, it's all coming back. She was tall and French. Oh,

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. Okay, so I need to ask you about the Cotton Club because that was, you were in the Cotton Club. Francis Ford Coppola did the Cotton Club after Rumblefish. It was my first job. So it went, he did Outsiders. With you. Rumblefish. Yeah.

Cotton Club. And so we, a lot of us had all met on Outsiders, like Diane Lane, and she was the star of it. Matt, I think, was in it. And you were friends with Patrick Swayze from that. Yeah. And so we were all friends. And I just remember the- And Tommy Howell. Tommy Howell. All of us. Yeah. Right. And who did Red Dawn with you. Right. But I remember the Cotton Club as being such an unmitigated disaster. And reading your book, which I did read that chapter. You know what, honey? Yeah.

It's okay. You're busy, busy man. Can't read everything. But you're, it's funny to hear from your perspective that, that even somebody young and just starting out knew what a fiasco that movie was. No, but it wasn't that it was like, we had people like, we had people like Bob Hoskins and, uh,

I mean, just incredible legends, which it was everybody. There was a giant cast of geniuses and they were all just kept in hair and makeup in like a holding area for six months, eight months, whatever it was. It was people were just like, what is going on? It was it was really exciting initially. And then it got to like, what is happening? What's happening here? And I had been

you know, just like a stand-in basically for Diane Lane until she came. And then Jennifer Jason Lee got the part opposite Nicholas Cage, who was Francis's, who is Francis's nephew, who was 18. I think he had done Valley Girl. You guys sat in full makeup and hair every day waiting to see if they were going to use you, not use you. You had no idea. Yeah, we were just like, because he was, I mean, you have to understand that Coppola

was one of the most thrilling or tourer. I mean, he had done Godfathers and Apocalypse and like he was, there was nobody who was as great a filmmaker and just, he was just all I wanted was to be one of his people and to be in his movie was such an incredible, it's my first job.

And I was, you know, doing love scenes with Richard Gere while Diane Lane was finishing doing Streets of Fire. And I would like, you know, we would do like, we're just going to improvise the whole script. We'll have the script. It's kind of like, you know, a little bit like a sketch. And we're all going to just do this with the green screen. I'm going to have a rough cut of the movie by the time we film.

And so then I could edit it and then know exactly what I'm doing. And so Diane was still on Streets of Fire, which had gone over. And so I had to play every woman's part.

Like that play a hooker. They'd throw a bow around my neck. And then I had to play Diane doing the scenes with Richard gear, who was like the, you know, just had done officer and a gentleman. Was it officer and gentleman? He just, yeah, he just came off officer and gentleman. It was before he did American gigolo or something around. Like he was the hottest. Oh yeah. That symbol of all time. Yep. And, and there he was. And there I was. And it was just incredible cast. And, and,

The most incredible jazz musicians and dancers and tap dancers. It was crazy. Gregory Hines and Honey Coles and Larry Fishburne, everybody was in this movie. And we were all just kind of waiting around like I've always pictured it was like a dollhouse. We were just like set up waiting to like when he's going to pick us up and put us in the

set you know what i mean it was very it was very wild and there was a lot of money a lot of gangster money and there was a lot of uh there i think there was kidnapping or murder it was just the behind the scenes what was happening was more dramatic than even the gangsters from the cotton club it was really wild yeah

Where they were getting their money from. And it was just a runaway train. There were so many characters involved behind the scenes as well. I just remember I would come to New York to visit and see people and Diane. And we were all there at Astoria Studios, just stuck there, right? And the movie is terrible. I don't know. I heard there was a new cut that he... What happened was I think he got pressured to make it more of the white part.

couple story. Oh, interesting. Instead of Lynette McKee and Gregory Hines, it was supposed to be the black and white love story, like the black story with Gregory and Lynette and Richard and Diane. And it was this, you know, supposed to be more even handed. And I think the producers ultimately, when they cut, they had 17 films. So they had to like make one film out of this. And I guess they decided to make it

I'm not sure I'm speaking a little out of my ass, but I think he recut it last year or the year before. Wow. Maybe at the New York Film Festival. And I've been wanting to watch it to see because there was such extraordinary dance and acting from the black stories that should have been represented. And I think he felt that he had done them a disservice. But like I said, I'm not sure, but I think it's something that...

I would love to see one of these days when, you know, I have a moment because I think it would be really interesting to see with the distance what he wished he had been able to do if he had had more agency, you know? And then how far after that for you is...

Another movie I remember the making of, like I made it, like I was a part of it, but I wasn't. It was Red Dawn. Well, I was in the middle of doing Cotton Club when I got Red Dawn. Okay. Makes sense. And then they let me leave and then come back and finish because they were still doing it after I finished a full length movie. I mean, they said, go away for two months, come back. We'll still be here. Don't worry. So they let me go and I went off to do Red Dawn in New Mexico with Tommy Howell.

And Patrick Swayze and Leah Thompson and Darren Dalton and... Harry Dean Stanton and Powers Booth. Powers Booth played Leah and my dad, I believe. Great actors. Yeah. Did you ever audition for it? No, and I was kind of pissed.

I was like, I was like, whatever happened? How, how all of a sudden I woke up one day and this movie was just being made. And I was like, wait, and everyone, you know, and all my, I literally know. Yeah. I had no one to go to the hard rock cafe. I was like, I was like, no one has going to the hard rock cafe with me tonight. Cause they're all making this movie called red Dawn.

And we were all like with AK-47s in New Mexico, we were being like trained by actual like CIA hired assassins. We'd be taken out with like, like they'd open up the back of a sedan and we'd have live ammunition and we would shoot live ammunition.

Yeah. For our target training. It was very soldier of fortune. And if you know me at all, and you know you at all, we are not naturally soldier of fortune types, are we? Oh, I am now. Ah!

Is that what happens when you become really successful? I don't know. Well, you know, it's really fun was, I mean, it turns out it was a really good shot, which is weird because I would be the least likely person to be that. But I think that I was like, I remember the guy who was doing the training with us telling me that I had an amazing, I was an amazing shot. So I have gone to those shooting galleries and they're really fun.

They're so fun now. But I'm, but I'm very, very anti-gun and violence and noise. So it really is not a good, like, I don't like, I don't like loud sounds. I'm just like, I'm a lover, not a fighter. What about, so who's, what's your love life like at this point? Oh, tell me where we are now. We're, we're at red Dawn. Oh, I was dating somebody who was not in the business. I was dating a guy who was a Bart. No, he was like a restaurant guy in New York.

And he visited me on Red Dawn. And yeah, I was going out with him. But I was just like, you know, I was a waitress. How did you keep your hands? I was a waitress. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. How did you keep your hands off all those young studs? I was not into those studs at all. What? I did not find them to be studly. Well, first of all, I was older than they were. And they bugged me.

They bugged you. They were pulling pranks. They were really young and they were like a bunch of boys. They were all just testosterone-y. It was like the real San Francisco treat.

Testosterone. They were so testy. And they were just all about partying. And I was into smoking joints in my room. You know what I mean? And then getting paranoid. For sure. Why not? Harry Dean Stanton would knock on my door. I'd be like, okay, you want to smoke a joint? And they're like, no, you have to leave. Get out. Yeah. It was just...

It was a hard, it was a hard shoot. And, you know, Patrick was super bossy. You know, he could get all like, you know, you know, and he said, John said, you know, you're the old, he was like 35 or something. And that was, we were not, we were playing high school students that were protecting the, our,

Colorado's town from the Russians invasion. I mean, it was really, it was not that different from what's happening. People, you know, there is a thing in Ukraine where it's hashtag Wolverine. I know. And that was what we were. That was our team from our Colorado sports team, I guess. And then we had, it was, and I wish I still had that jacket, of course, from the show, which I don't have. Cause I could auction that for, for Ukraine.

I know I could do it for aid to Ukraine. And we would be like, Wolverines! No, they have it on Russian tanks.

Yeah, it's really wild. It's so, it's so, but now. Anyways, they were pulling pranks. They were like putting like firecrackers in my, is that what they're called? You know, like when things would blow up. They would put it like in my door, the door jam. Yeah. And then I would be trying to sleep and they would just sound like people were shooting at my door. And I was trying to go to sleep to like do my big love scene the next day where, I mean, they were just kids. And I was, I was like, you know,

I was never interested in teenagers my whole life, like even when I was a teenager. So I was like, you know, I have that chapter. So they're all doing, they're doing the same kind, it's outsider hotel room pranks that we did on the outsiders. They're still doing it. I'm sure. I'm sure. And also they were like, they were just much younger than I was. I think they were like 19 and I was like 25, 24, 25, whatever I was. But I, you know, it was just that, and Patrick was 30.

30, I don't know. It was just wild. And I was just like, get me out of here. And they were just very immature and very just, you know, they were still playing. I don't know. It's just... Yeah, for all, believe me, I... It's very boys, very boysy. And I just was never into that boy thing. Like, I like men. Men. And I'm boy crazy, but I don't like that kind of like that gang mentality thing. Okay, so then I'm always sort of fascinated because you...

Had amazing taste. Well, I don't know if amazing is right. You won't agree with this. I have a prescient sense of talent. Is that what you're saying? Yes. In your love life. You, I mean...

I have an eye for talent unlike almost anybody. You do? Mm-hmm. I mean, Michael J. Fox, I didn't realize was on that list. He was not ever a romantic person for me. Never? Never, never, never. No, no, no. Okay. He was my friend always. I've only been friends with him, and I've been friends with him my entire life.

I mean, he's married to my best friend from high school. Tracy, yeah, sure. Yeah, he was never my boyfriend. I think we were in like pictures together and people thought like we were at Pretty in Pink premiere. Never have ever had a romantic moment with him. Obviously, Matthew Broderick, by the way, your book is,

is amazing about Matthew Broderick. Has, do we, has he read it yet? Has there been any reaction from Matthew? Oh, honestly, I have no idea. I mean, it was, if I could have written the book,

This is, I'm telling you the God's honest truth. If I could have written this book with everybody's name changed, I would have. And it probably wouldn't have sold as well or wouldn't sell as well. But honestly, for me, it was just telling the most important stories that changed my life for better or for worse. And sometimes both. And unfortunately, if you don't save...

who you're working with. It just, they just, people start Googling it and then it becomes distracting and almost like coy or playful. And I just, to me, it's just, we just loved each other. And I mean, I don't know. I loved him a lot. And I just, I look at my, the choices that I made and I look at, you know, from where I sit now, just what I was, what I was, I wanted what I wanted and what I didn't want to see. I didn't want to see. And my tolerance, my,

for certain things was just all on me now that I look at it, you know, and, and very intense stuff happened while we were together. And that's the only reason he's in the book is because he was part of the story of the important moments. There's absolutely nothing in there that,

that is gratuitous in any way, as far as I'm concerned. Oh, for sure not. I mean, I was... Listen, having done... Been there, having written about my own life and... It's intense, right? It's super intense. And I came down on the side of...

Everybody's entitled to, well, as the kids say now, their own truth. Well, everyone has their story, right? Yes. And there is no empirical truth. There is only your own experience. That's right. And if you're, I just feel, from where I sit now, I just feel like I'm almost...

Looking at all of us just trying so hard to live our best lives and trying so hard to love and to survive and to figure stuff out. And you just realize how dumb you are when you're young. And how unconscious choices can be so scarring and traumatizing. But you couldn't have done better. And no one in the story could have done better because everyone's doing the best they can.

Always. 100%. That's very clear in your book. I mean, you threaded that needle exactly right. There's nothing gratuitous in your book at all. But it also doesn't shy away from the stuff that people are going to... If you're going to write a book about your life, there are certain things that you got to be forthcoming about or don't write the book. I mean, I've been there. I know what that is. It's really... For me...

Because I grew up with such an intense people-pleasing fear of hurting or offending or disappointing anyone, that to me, it's still anathema to me to...

to put my truth out and to own my story. And yet at the same time, I can't not do it because I think it's important. You have to name it to tame it. And the idea is this is what happened. This is what happened and this is my story. And I think mostly about my daughter and I think about other young women or other young people growing up

that they might pick up the book because it's got some juicy bits and some fun bits or people that they've heard of or that they are curious about. But the truth is, it's really about a coming-of-age story of every age and that each layer, and still today, the coming-of-age story for me today is how can I tolerate being myself and owning my story

and tolerate the inevitability of people being unhappy with me or disappointed or critical or whatever, and knowing that I can survive that, it's to me, I think you've been there for much longer than I have. That's just what I project on you. I don't know if it's true, but I feel like you really, really give yourself a voice and always have. And I don't think that you're as

frightened of incurring the wrath of anybody. Is that true? For sure at this point in my life, for sure. How did you get there? That's what I want you to teach me today. Like teach me your ways, Sensei. I'm not kidding. I am really being real with you. I'm like saying it's really intense to be my age and still think, please let me before I die, learn how to just stand in my truth.

Well, I mean, you're so advanced in your recovery that I think you're probably closer to it than you think because you don't get, you don't stay sober as long as you've stayed sober or that I've stayed sober without that getting somewhat baked into your DNA. I know, but to do it with yourself is one thing, but to do it in a public, like how do you, I just feel like you do not give a shit. I don't.

And I want to just, I want to, I want to get to that. I do not give a shit place. I just want to like major in that right now. I want to care less, even though intellectually, I know that what other people think of me is none of my business, but it still makes my hiney go in, you know? But here's the thing is like, as I hear myself say that, I relate to that. And I want to make clear.

to folks listening who don't have to endure the kind of microscope that people in our business, they don't care about fans or how people feel about my work or do they like the show or do they hate it? I mean, listen, we just talked about a movie we did together that is arguably 50% of the people who see it

We'll acknowledge it for what it is, which is awful, literally unwatchable. And then there might be 50% of people go, I kind of liked it, but like, I don't own any of it. I know, but that is different because the truth is, is like, you know, people can have an opinion about your work or a project. So you're talking about your actual person. I'm talking about writing a book and being a person who is like,

I think it happens with age where you just go, I must. I think it's a sign of being really free and really adult. Well, my question to you would be is how much more do you have to work to feel like you've earned it?

It's personal. I remember I had a sponsor. My first sponsor said to me, I broke up with somebody and I was really broken up about it. Nobody is in the book. No one you need to know about. That's not important. She said, I'm just so down. And she said, why don't you write a fourth step about it? And I said...

But I don't resent anything. He didn't do anything, you know, that's, we didn't, it wasn't like that. And she said, what would you resent if you had any self-esteem? Yeah.

And I went, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but that, that in a way is what I'm asking is like, how much, how much more, it's like, how much, how much, how much more shit do you have to eat before you go? You know, I don't love that. Yeah. And that's really what it is, is like, you know, you, I, like I said, I've read, I've read your book. It is, you have a lot of famous people in it because that's your life. I mean, you grew up singing with Stephen Sondheim.

When you were a kid, it is what it is. You couldn't write your truth without those people being a part of it. It's just the way my life unfolded. That's right. It's not by design. But the thing is, is that, you know how we have this credo of just, you know, not wanting to cause anybody, you know, just not wanting to hurt anybody. Yeah.

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At the end of the day, my people pleasing was really the reason I drank. Like if I, I mean, if I, it's like, there's all kinds of things. It's not famous. It's that it's like people wanted things from me. I was uncomfortable with confrontation.

I would put off any pain anywhere I could. Avoidant, right? Avoidant. And I still battle that stuff. But so when I...

Got sober. I was like, I'm not people pleasing anymore that the I gave it 32 years. You've been free of people pleasing. I just want to go to your Tony Robbins freaking event and teach me your ways because like it's really hard to give it up. I don't understand how you just did it. Well, then the question is, what are you getting out of it then?

You're getting something out of it. It's literally wiring. I feel like I need, like, I don't, it's just, to me, I don't know how you did it. You just cut the cord.

Well, it wasn't like it happened overnight, but once the light bulb went off of awareness, like you said, you have to name it to tame it. You've more than named it. You can't unsee what you've seen. You've studied it, but for me, when I had that kind of awareness that you clearly have, it was on its way out the door. Yeah. Because it was clearly killing me, literally killing me. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, if you realize that

If your intention is always to tell your truth, knowing that everyone has a right to their own, which they do, you know, I mean, it's just the way it is and that everyone has a right to tell their story.

That's right. Listen, I had a book written. I've had books that I've been written that I was a big part of the book. There's a version of me that could be upset about it. And, but, but my thing is I like to be consistent if I can. I'm a human, so I'm not always, but in my worldview and it's like, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's this person's truth. They get to write about it and in any way they want. And in my one man show, there's a, there's a bit that I do about Tom Cruise and

And I love Tom. I love, I love, I think he's the greatest and I love his movies. And I kept thinking, I wonder if Tom would be upset if he knew about this joke, but it's a real thing that happened just briefly is we do outsiders together. We're brothers.

And anybody who I did outsiders with, no matter what, when we see each other, we're right back there like if you were in a sorority or fraternity in college. But a little like you and me with the way we do our business, right? We just go into a groove. We go into a groove and it's been five minutes since we've seen each other, even though it might be five years. Right.

I have that with all the guys, including Tom. So he was doing risky business in Chicago. I arrived in Chicago to do a movie called class. We hadn't seen each other. I go to the set to see him drive all the way out there. I remember it being a nightmare getting to the set. And, and, and that's probably why I was so irked at what happened. So he, it's the scene where he's jumping on the Porsche, trying to keep his Porsche from going to Lake Michigan. Iconic, great movie. And we finish and he, it's, it's a wrap. I come up to him.

Give him a hug. He's weirdly uncomfortable. I'm like, okay, that's weird. I'm like, so where are we going to go out? Because this, we should be going out. It's Chicago. We should be doing a thing. And he says, you know, um, listen, um, I don't know how to say it. I can't hang out with you. I go, what? He goes, he goes, I know you, but my character doesn't know you. Yeah.

And that was it. And we didn't go out. He did not say that. He did. Now, listen, he said that to me. I didn't make this up. No, you couldn't make that up. I didn't make it up. You couldn't. It happened to me. It's an amazing story. And by the way, if that's what it takes for Tom to do his work, so fucking be it. Exactly right. But it's like, I'm not going to not tell that story. I'm not. But did you ever tell him about that story that you tell? No, but I would.

I absolutely would. Yeah, but you're not going to chase him down and go, by the way, I'd like to tell you something that might make you feel weird. No, but I'd be like, bro, do you remember this? This is great. Do you remember when I came to visit your school?

we would laugh about it because he's got to, the great thing is that isn't who he is. That's not who he is. Yeah. I think that was a moment where everybody, every young actor, and I really mean this not as a disclaimer to inoculate myself. It was a whole thing around it. It was a thing. It was a thing. Everybody was, it's like the time. Nick Cage wouldn't answer to anything but his character's name. Oh. I mean, during Cotton Club. It was like everybody. Everybody was doing that. Patrick during Cotton, during Red Dawn, he would only respond to that character. Like, it was just like,

Yeah, it was so funny to me. Everyone, I wasn't doing it. Were you doing it? No, never did it. But you and I were the anomalies, I think. Probably why I'm not as good actors, these guys. But I remember in the world of answering machines, being over at Emilio's one time, and the answering machine went off and there was a voice going, hi, I want to talk to Emilio.

I hope he is a male. Oh, I was like, I was like, that sounds a lot like Sean Penn to me. And I picked it up and I go, Sean, he goes, who? No, I'm looking for. And I realized, no, this is absolutely Sean Penn doing a voice. And it was Sean doing his voice from the Louis Mao movie Crackers.

Oh, he played like a he played like a Cajun. And I was like, I was like, bro, it's Rob. You don't need to do the voice. It's me. Yeah. Emilio is not here, but he's like, oh, I will just tell him that the Cajun. And I was like, oh, God.

And I just never, it was like James Carville. Everybody did this. Everybody, everybody. It was a thing. But I don't think girls did it as much. I think a lot of the guys did it. I don't know too many. Like I know that Meryl supposedly when she shows up at a reading for like, you know, Devil Wears Prada, whatever, she comes in character. Okay. Guess what? I, I would be embarrassed. Jodie Foster has two Oscars. Never does that. Not only would she never do it,

She would not be caught dead doing it. She'd be mortified. I showed her, I showed her, I said, I have to put myself on tape for this audition recently. And I told her about it and she was like, oh, I wouldn't do that.

I was like, I can't, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to, I wouldn't, she was embarrassed. Like she was embarrassed for me that I would have to put myself on tape for like, she's just so grounded. She's the best. And look, I worked with Jodi when I was super young and she was already wildly accomplished. What did you guys do together? We did a movie called hotel, New Hampshire. Oh, with Lisa Baines, Lisa Baines, God rest her. Oh, that was so horrible. She's a great actor. Yeah.

Yes, I remember when she and you and Natasya Kinski. Yes.

But I think the reason at the end of the day that the movie didn't work was at that time, Nastassia was literally on the cover of Time magazine and the headline was most beautiful woman in the world. Oh, with a snake, the nude picture with a snake. Was that her? That was her, but that was her, but that was not the Time magazine photo. But in the movie, she, she wears a bear suit. Oh, right. She literally wears a bear suit. Why would you put the most beautiful?

woman in the world in a bear suit? Does she ever disrobe out of the bear suit? She takes her head off once. No, stop it. And...

I'm not making this up. You couldn't. It's too good. I forgot she was the bear. I forgot about the story. She wears a bear suit. Oh, wait. You just sounded like Betty. What was she doing in the bear suit? Painted bears. Because it's another story. It's the Christopher Walken story. Christopher Walken goes to host Saturday Night Live. They sit there in the host meeting and all the writers pitch. All the writers go, I'm thinking of this. I'm thinking of that. And then as it

only as a, um, a polite thing to do. Do they ask the host if they have any ideas? Right. They don't ever intention of doing anything. The host says ever. And they famously asked Chris walk and he goes, Oh, best suits of funny.

Oh, and ape suits as well. Oh, that's a very funny Saturday Night Live legendary bath suits. So you've said that a lot. Wait, tell me, is there am I am I making this up or do you tell a great story about going to and Mike, Mike Nichols and and Diane Sawyer's house? And you're there with Matthew Broderick.

Oh, okay. Go ahead. And someone shows up unexpectedly. What? Wait, wait, I forgot about this story. Oh, I forgot about this story. Remind me of my life. So here's, here's your life. You and Matthew Broderick. We were good friends with Mike and I, and we would go up to the country in Connecticut. Out of the country. Right. And you're lying by the pool and your car come up the driveway. Shit.

And Mike looks at Diane and Diane looks at Mike. Are you expecting anybody? No. What's going on? And that you look out and out of the car comes Matthew Modine with a suitcase. And tell me more. I'm literally feeling like I know what you're saying is true, but I don't know what happens. What happens? So apparently and Mike's like, hello. And Matthew's like, sorry, I'm late. Matthew Modine. Matthew Modine.

And what had happened was, apparently... You're the one telling the story. You told the story to me. Well, you know how long ago I told the story to you? Probably in 1990. Yes. So don't be like that. Just tell me what the goddamn... What happened? Because now I'm on tenterhooks. Okay, so tenterhooks. I have hooks for hands. So...

What had happened was... Come on, you've missed me. You know you have. I have. This is bad. Okay, go ahead. Apparently, Matthew Modine had been on the phone with Mike Nichols about something. And Mike said, why don't you come out for the weekend thinking it was Matthew Broderick. Broderick! So Matthew Modine, who doesn't really even know Mike Nichols, is like, wow, sure. Sure.

And so, hence, one of the most awkward weekends ever. Okay. It's so weird. I feel really like I have dementia or something because I know what you're saying is true. And yet, I mean, literally, I always thought you were going to tell me this story. Like when I was in Martha's Vineyard with him when I had my baby and it was years later. And I remember him putting his arm around Diane, looking at the vista and saying, someday this will all not be ours. Yeah.

That's very funny. Oh, damn it. That was a good story. And he stayed for how long? And it was so awkward because he invited Matthew Modine thinking it was Broderick. Oh, my God. And Modine stayed. As I told the story. As you tell the story, as I remember it from 1990, he was not alone. Oh, shit. Yeah, because he was married since he was super young. That's so funny.

Okay, that's really crazy. And just to bring it full circle, he broke my nose in Hotel New Hampshire. Oh, he was in Hotel New Hampshire? Yes, and he broke my nose. How did he break your nose? He kicked me in the face with a steel-toed boot. Accidentally? Accidentally. 100% was not his fault. And wait, is that why you're so handsome?

And Tony Richardson was so angry at him for doing it. And I kept saying, it's not his fault. It's not his fault. It was a stunt gone wrong that Tony looped his performance with another actor's performance in the movie. Yep.

That's nuts. I know. We've gone so, there are more stories that have come out of this podcast than I think of any. I mean, I can't believe you're reminding me of stories that are for sure true that I could not for the life of me had written it. Like, I couldn't have told you what happened. I was so, that's the beauty about getting older is that everything is new again. Right.

I order stuff on Amazon and like ding dong. I'm like, I just ordered it last night, but it's, you know, it's every day. It's like Christmas. It's not every day. It is like Christmas when I'm with you. It really is true. This is great. I love you. This is so fun. I love you, Rob.

We just did one of the longest podcasts I've done because she makes me laugh and I could talk to her forever. And we didn't even I don't think the phrase dirty dancing ever came out of my mouth. And that's what I like about. Honestly, that's what I like about doing this podcast, because it's like, how can you talk to Jennifer Grey without talking about dirty dancing? This is how you go somewhere else to get that stuff. Anyway, I had a blast. I hope you did, too. It was super, super fun.

All right. Just one more thing before we end today's episode. Let's check the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep.

Hey, Rob. Matt from Detroit. Just wondering, thinking back to movies made before you were born, what do you think would be the one movie and one part you would have loved to have done before your birth that you didn't have a chance to? Thanks. Thanks, Matt. Thanks for calling. Well, it would immediately pop to my mind, and it wasn't before I was born, technically, because I believe the movie came out in 1969.

would it be Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid? Look, there are other great movies, obviously, that would have been good, but I would love to play Butch Cassidy. I mean, I would love to do a modern-day Butch Cassidy. I'd love to go back in time and be Butch. In the, what is it, in the metaverse? Not the metaverse, but what are they calling it? In the multiverse, 3.0, whatever it is.

Hopefully they can use my avatar and put me in Butch Cassidy someday. And you can see what that would be like. But the other part of it is I would have loved to have been around in the era of the traditional romantic leading man screwball comedies. Like His Girl Friday, Bringing Up Baby, Front Page, the sort of Howard Hawks fast-talking comedy.

Um, movies. I, I would have loved those. And I think those would have been in my wheelhouse. Um, and those are great ones. Philadelphia story. Um, Cary Grant, Jimmy Stewart. Um, if you haven't seen those movies that you should, they're great. Um, and definitely we're not making anything remotely like those anymore. Really great question. I could go on and on with this one. Um, but, uh, thanks for calling and keep listening.

Don't forget to tune in next week to Literally and subscribe. And a five-star review on Apple is very, very helpful. Also, Parks and Rec Collection, my other podcast, which is the deep dive on everything related to Parks and Rec. We could use your support. And I will see you next week.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Rob Schulte, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar. Our coordinating producer is Lisa Berm. Our research is done by Alyssa Grahl. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Joanna Salatara for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. All of the music you hear is by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe.

This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

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