Penn Badgley: Listening Machines
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Hello, everybody. It is me. Or is it I? I know I've said this before. It is I. It is me. It is I. You know what? I think that's the correct. That's correct English. But you guys would think less of me or more of. Would you think less of me or more of me if I started this? Let's try it. Hello. It is I, Rob Lowe. And this is literally. I think you'd be like, ew, he's stuffy. Ew. Whatever. Anyway, we have Penn Badgley today.

We're going to gossip. We're going to gossip. We're going to talk about his show, You, as well. And there's some other stuff that I think you're going to find very surprising out of Mr. Badgley, not the least of which is where he got his name penned.

Nice to see you. It's nice to see you. I was doing a little bit of researching on you, and I feel like we have so many things in common. Are you ready? Yeah, please. Okay. Your name is Penn, and according to my research, it comes from the tennis ball. Is this correct? That is true. Okay.

My brother, when he was born, was so bald that we called him Dunlop. You're kidding. Because the Dunlop tennis balls were notoriously harder and didn't have any fuzz on them. You know what's funny? I didn't know that. See, I'm not as dialed in to the specificity of tennis balls. You would think maybe I would be, but the joke, the Dunlop joke that my mom would always make is...

Because my dad was gripping a Penn tennis ball at this moment, and she said, oh, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball, and that was just how it happened. Amazing. So the joke is we're glad it wasn't Dunlop. But see, you just called your brother Dunlop. We called him Dunlop because he had no hair. I like that. There's more, though. Keep going. Your mother started a jewelry business. That's true.

My wife started a jewelry business. You moved to L.A. as a young actor, as did I. Yeah, how young were you, can I ask? I was 12. Yeah, me too. We're going to circle back and do a deeper dive on all these. Oh, you took the proficiency exam. Did you? I did. Really? Yeah.

I did take the proficiency exam. I don't meet a lot of others. Okay, cool. And so basically that means that we just don't have to go to high school. We don't have to finish high school. Is that what it was? It's been so long. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, from what I remember, it's now done more often by young actors. So it's called now the CHESPE, because it's C-H-S-P-E, California High School Proficiency Exam. So it just means in the state of California, you have the equivalent of a high school diploma,

It means a number of things. I mean, back then, at least, most of the people were people immigrating from South America who were like probably in their 30s, 40s. You know, this is a matter of work. Right. Yes. And then for me, it actually was too. It was so I wouldn't have to work with an on-set tutor and could work adult hours. And then actually I took...

What's it called? Community college courses. Santa Monica College out there. Well, and Santa Monica College, because I went to Santa Monica High School. Ah, okay. So the SMC, I think they called it. Yeah, SMC. Everybody was at SMC. That was kind of like... It's a cool place. It is. It's a really good... It's a very cool place. So we had that together. Okay. And then most importantly, I see...

You had a national tragedy when you did not know the words to the national anthem. I forgot. I haven't thought about that in a long time, but yes. And I, of course, had a national tragedy when I sang Proud Mary at the Academy Awards. So I think we've got a lot. You're right. A lot in common. You're right. By the way, I'd rather... No, I don't... You know what? I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know which is worse, embarrassing yourself in front of...

two billion people at the Oscars or forgetting the words to the I don't know man well I mean I think how many people it wasn't where were you singing this I mean let's see it was Tacoma Tacoma Washington at a what do you call it a triple A not majors but just below that the Tacoma Rainiers I yeah it is yeah

Mount Rainier. Mount Rainier is a gorgeous mountain up there. And yeah, I sang. How did that even get arranged? Who knows? But I was in a lot of theater and musical theater up there, and I was working in radio before I moved to L.A. And yeah, I do not recall at all how it was. You just blacked out. Well, I just, I mean, so, yeah, I was sort of cavalier, I think, in terms of prep. I just...

Because at this point I was very accustomed to performing and I think also out of nerves I was like, well, I don't know what to do. I mean, it's the national anthem, so I'm just going to go sing it. And I blanked. I blanked on one of the last lines. And I remember being like, this is just silence. There's no music. And I was like...

What do I do? And then I hear the roar of the crowd behind me, all yelling the words. And then I couldn't hear because it was such an indistinct roar. And I actually said into the microphone, I said, what? It's amazing. And then I heard the actual, the team itself, like calling really loudly, like finally the word. And I was like, oh yeah, thanks.

And then I kept singing. And actually, I have to say, nobody cared about me singing. It made it so much more interesting. And both teams were very, you know, congratulatory and very encouraging. So now I don't even see it as a bad thing. I see it as like that made the day for everybody. Nobody felt as bad as the kid as they thought the kid who forgot the national anthem did. How old were you?

I must have been 12 or 13. Oh, come on. Jesus. That's amazing then. Yeah. Yeah. I had this image of you like the peak of gossip girl just swaggering out there with your hair mousse over the hell. No, no, yeah, no, no. America's heart throb and just butchering it. That would have been...

Yeah, that would have been a better story, to be honest. Now, were you also homeschooled, too? I mean, so, yeah, but I was more— By the way, can I just—here's my favorite. This is—and I have a great—the folks who help prep me are amazing, but this is not their finest hour with this. It says—

He and his future Gossip Girl co-star Blake Lively were homeschooled together as kids. Were you homeschooled with Blake? Or maybe they're great. So there is something there. We did another thing I haven't thought of in a while. So Blake's parents were both very much in the business. So I went to, I knew Blake beforehand because her mother was a manager. Mm-hmm.

And her father was an acting teacher. And so I kind of like, and it was in Atwater. And I, yeah, I was in there for, I want to say maybe like a year or something like that. And we may have. Homeschooled. There may have been, because there were a lot of actor kids who were in some kind of strange homeschooling slash working on sets slash whatever thing.

I think at that point, to be honest, I mean, Blake, from what I recall, had a very sort of iconic high school experience. So she wasn't homeschooled for very long, if at all. But there was something there, yeah. Okay, so that's not a typo. No, no. That's well-researched. Yeah, it's a deep cut is what that is. Listen, this show is about nothing but deep cuts. As I see. This is the kind of show where Paul McCartney could come on and I wouldn't even mention the Beatles. Yeah.

That's the kind of show this is. In other words, a show that nobody wants. Right. It's basically what it is. Join the club. Yeah. I've got one of those too. Okay. So you were clearly in the show business. I'm obsessed with what your experience would be because like, you know, there's this whole thing where they're, you know, the Oakwood apartments. Oh yeah. So I lived in the Kenwood, which was about, which was walking distance from the Oakwood. Oakwood was giant and iconic. The Kenwood was its...

It's a sort of silent, darker counterpart. No, not darker, actually. Oakwood was a dark place. But, you know, the Kenwood had its little, its day.

So for those of you who may not have been child actors... Some of you, maybe. Yeah, there's a whole industry where you need child actors. And people come from all over the world, and they move to L.A., and it depends on how seriously you take it, but a lot of them literally on the fly rent apartments, and they have homeschooled their kids. Oh, they'll basically do... On one hand, it's for love, I think. They'll do anything for their kids. And at the same time,

They'll do anything to their kids. And it's, you know, it's a tough, it's a really, I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, nor do I think you would recommend it.

No. I think anybody who goes through it would. No. But it's, you know, those of us who make it through have some stories. I actually want to do a show about it. I've thought about it. In fact, my brother Chad Lowe is developing one that takes place in the Oakwood Apartments. Yeah. Wow. So wait, did you ever have any contact with the Oakwood? Did you any? I feel like that would have been a little bit later, right? It was later. I lived in the Oakwood Apartments when I was training for a movie called Youngblood and it was near the...

I was doing hockey training and that's where the studio put me. But I did not, you know, they used to have like a casting, like they had a photo room and a casting, acting lessons at the Oakwood. And then I just, all these kids by the, it sounds weird, but a lot of people came out of, I mean, I feel like,

The alumnus, is that correct? Or alumni? I've never gotten it right. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't finish any schooling. I was going to say because we have the proficiency. Yeah. What was your auditioning experience like? You got some good audition stories? Well, sure. The first one that comes to mind was a moment that I was both humiliated but also felt kind of empowered because I was like, I knew that it was like not right. I went out for a, would have been,

These days it would be the CW. The CW still exists, right? Yeah. But then it was the WB. Yes. And I was going out for a show. And, you know, I mean, I've been working for Warner Brothers now basically since these days. But so I was going out for a show. Is it better if I name the show or not? Oh, it's always better. Okay. I'm pretty sure it was Charmed. I'm pretty sure it was Charmed. And I'm pretty sure I was 13 or 14. I was young. Yeah.

And I had, I think, a callback for, you know, just some, just some, just barely a role. It was just a guest star, like a kid who would have been, and Charmed was a show about witches and supernatural things. So I think I was a kid witnessing some supernatural thing. And in this moment, in the script, in the sides I'm auditioning with, the kid is meant to be saying something in disbelief like,

How? What do you mean? Something like that, you know? And I already hated that kind of television. It's not even a judgment to that. It does what it does. I had already been out for so many roles like that that I was learning to become cynical, you know? And I really didn't want to be there, to be honest. Yeah.

And I really didn't like these lines that I had to say. And this moment of disbelief that I needed to have, I just could not get behind for the little 12-year-old life of me. And I gave a terrible...

I went like, why? Or something like that. Because, you know, it had those stutters. Or you yawned in the middle of the line. Yeah. And one of the young writers, because there was like just a team flanking the casting director. It was a giant room full of people. Somebody actually laughed out loud. Laughed out loud at my line reading, which, you know, might not sound that bad. But let me tell you, that's a rare experience.

I mean, you know, like to actually laugh, to scoff audibly in response to a child's line rating. Yes. Like you're an adult. Get your act together, man. And I was humiliated and didn't really know how to continue, but had to, of course. And but then in my mind, I was also like, what the fuck does this guy think he is? I'm a child.

Yeah. So anyway, that's that's just one little. Yeah, I can remember having a I was probably 12 and Fred Silverman, who was then on the cover of Time magazine as the smartest executive in television. He like resurrected, I want to say, NBC and came up all these hits. I had an audition with him for some reason. And he talked on the phone through the whole audition. Oh, yeah.

I mean, he physically didn't talk, but he had the phone to his ear and was listening. That was good times. The rejection of an audition is actually, when you're that young, you don't realize how much it's shaping you. Yeah. How much therapy have you had over it? Because I can tell you, my therapy bills are...

This is not a shameless plug for my show. We don't even have to talk about my podcast. No, I want to talk about your show. But this is actually how I kind of got into it because it's about these years. It's about the middle school years. It's called Podcrushed. And my two co-hosts have a completely different experience. They come from actually middle school administration. So they're like their former teachers and they're professionals in that way. Didn't work in media at all until this. So, you know.

This kind of magnified shame and rejection that anybody who auditions goes through, I think is like, it's essentially the feeling of being in middle school, you know? And so I have a unique lens on that, and they do too, and so that's kind of, that's sort of part of the genesis of our show. That's super cool.

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Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. None of us ever get over. I'm not talking just child actors. I'm not talking about anybody, literally any human being. Yeah. There's a part of us that's forever stuck in middle school, I think. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I actually fully agree with that. Yeah. And the more we do our show, the more that thesis seems to be proven. Yeah, I very much agree. And you know what?

I think that's kind of because it's like humanity itself is going through the same process of coming of age. You know, we're going through this transition. We've never been able to see ourselves as a global people before the last, what, 100 years or so? We're going through the same painful coming of age. It's super interesting.

Before we move on from Gossip Girl. Yeah, let's do it. Let's dial that in. Let's dial it in. I think Ms. Lively and Leighton Mooster. Yeah. Those young ladies are quite beautiful. And like that show, I remember when that show came on and everyone, like everybody was watching that show. That show was like West Wing for young people. That's funny. Yeah.

Yeah, you're right, I think. Right? Yeah, it's an interesting comparison to draw, but yeah, something like it. For sure. But now you're on You, and You is a really interesting thing because You started at Lifetime, I believe. Is that right? It's true. Where did it start? It started at both the least and most likely place that a show about a serial killer could be. Yes. And it was... Because I've done a bunch of stuff for them, and...

I remember it being, everybody's super excited, like it was a big swing for them. It was, you're right. Yeah, way more serious, not more serious, but like elevated. Well, it kind of is and it kind of isn't. Yeah, yeah. They definitely, there was an idea that they were going to have a really exciting kind of new way to approach a scripted show.

Because at the time, they were blowing up with their reality stuff. Right. You know, I mean, significantly, I think that was right around in Surviving R. Kelly. Do I have that title right? I think that, and that was like a, that was a real huge kind of elite prestige get for them. And they, and they, and you know, they were talking about, they had a lot of other things that they wanted to do like that. This was, this was one of them. And they, and they, and you know, and so they, they, they wanted to make a big push for it, but I don't know.

Frankly, that always takes money that not everyone has. Yeah. And I remember it was like people liked it, got great reviews from the job. And then for whatever reason, it didn't really work there. And Netflix just grabbed it and the rest is history. You're in what, season four now or five? We just finished season four. Yeah. And that's going to come out in a few months. How many people have you killed on the show?

You know, I don't remember the number, but if I do the math, I can't reveal the numbers on. So I can actually, why don't we just, if you want, you can cut this part out. Let's just walk it through. Okay. And these will contain spoilers from seasons one to three, but I can't talk about season four. Understood. Let's see. By the way, my theory on spoilers is this.

If it's a streaming show and it has been out for more than a certain amount of time, it's no longer a spoiler. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. So I'm just letting anybody know. I'm going to talk about all the people Joe's killed up until the beginning of season four. Yes.

So let's see. There's Eli, which nobody thought I was going to name first. He's somebody who comes from a memory that you realize Joe's been doing this longer than you thought. There's Peach. There's not Candace. Candace is somebody you think he killed, but is revealed at the end of, what, season... Is it one or two? Anyway. So Eli, Peach...

R.I.P. Beck. The hardest thing I've ever had to do, actually, as an actor is the first season of this show where I didn't know how it was going to be received, really didn't know where I landed on how I felt about the whole thing, like playing a leading man who's also a, you know, just a disgusting person.

but who presents a lot as not. I mean, anyway, it's easier to do for the length of a film, harder to do for the length of a series. It's somewhere, rather than walk it through, I'm going to say I think it's somewhere in the realm of eight by the end of season three. Proficient. Very proficient. He is proficient.

Which kind of in like, was it a little bit of like a Ted Bundy type of... He's not really Ted Bundy. That's not his vibe because he's not really a hunter. This is more psychological. No, and I personally, and I think I'm on the same page as the creators here. I mean, I speak about it openly with them and then I also speak about it openly in press. You know, to me, what I think we're doing, we're not doing a clinical portrayal of a serial killer. That's not what's happening. This whole show is...

very much working in the realm of fantasy and allegory and social commentary to me. And it does so for the sake of both fun and profundity in, you know, alternating fits and starts. So, and ultimately it is sort of like escapist sort of entertainment.

with some real relevance to sort of real issues. And that's ultimately like this toxic misconception of love. Joe, more than a person who is like a killer, I think what he really is an embodiment is a grossly distorted interpretation of...

All of our modern ideas about love that exist in kind of Hollywood movie making, you know, it's like the like the knight in shining armor, in a sense. He's a lot of those tropes following the logic kind of in an in a consistent way and then, you know, going far too far with it.

It turns all of those 80s movies in particular, I think, like I think the most iconic ones are like the, that it's referencing are like the John Hughes say anything like the sweet guy who just can't get the nerve to talk to the girl but is like secretly sort of pining after her slash stalking her slash strategizing how to make her his way.

Which, you know, used to be fun and relatable. And now you realize in some ways it's it's it's following some tropes that are kind of problematic. You know, I never understood. It's funny you say that because I never this I'm thinking of this movie. Say say anything. It's not a John Hughes movie. It's a Cameron Crowe movie. But oh, you're right. You're right. You're right. No, but but still, it's like I never got it. He stands in a trench coat. First of all, if he's in a trench coat, I'm out.

Yeah, that's a fair point. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Has anything, is there ever a story that the hero came in. In a trench coat. He was wearing a trench coat. It's never happened. Gambit. Gambit of X-Men, the least popular hero of them all. And then he's outside in the rain. He's holding up that ginormous boom box playing that really depressing, like whatever, Phil Collins song or the fuck it was. Yeah. Or Peter Gabriel, I guess.

I always got the ick off that. And people like, they're like, oh, it's so romantic. Yuck. And I think what people love is like, look at the

What is that? It's the it's the I'll do anything for you. I'll do it. And actually, that's what this guy is. He is the embodiment. He's not as much of a serial killer as he is the living embodiment of I'll do anything for you. So the show is a lot more about love than it is about actual like pathology in in in in like, you know, like the mind of a serial killer. That's what I think.

No, that makes perfect sense. I totally see that. And you're right. That concept does not age well. You know, it was quaint and cute in the 80s, maybe. Yeah. And by the way, it was because it was being portrayed in just the right way by just the right people, you know? Yes. And you and I have portrayed those roles. John Cusack did it. You know, it's like we have...

We have about probably when all is said and done, like, something like 30 years of this specific kind of, like, nice guy who's actually creepy, if you think about it, trope. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. And that's actually what I did for most of my career beforehand. And so it's interesting where this show... And I always thought the same thing, too, by the way, playing these kinds of roles. You know, nobody has as many insights...

apart from the creators of something, as the actors who have to read the lines. Those words all the time. And you have to bring it to life all the time. And so, you know, it's an interesting continuation of this sort of, like, archetypes I've played before. It's funny. I work a lot on the Fox lot, and they filmed, obviously, it's an iconic movie TV lot. It's been there since the 20s. Totally, yeah. And they have paintings on the sound stages of some of their iconic work. And there's one I see every day.

And somebody had the idea to, you know, to put it up there. And it gives me the heebie-jeebies. It's Marilyn Monroe. And I want to say Tom Elam in Seven Year Itch. That's right. I know which one you're talking about. Yeah. And he's sniffing her hair. Yeah. Yeah. And she's kind of like being like, oh, gosh. Coquettish. Coquettish and clearly kind of. It's just an older, ugly man sniffing.

This beautiful young woman's

ear lurking. It's so... And that was... It was like, oh, isn't that cute? Isn't that amazing? No? It's creepy. Well, I mean, look, dude. I mean, look, you actually dialed this stuff in, which is... I don't know that we need to go there here. But, I mean, look at Marilyn Monroe. Like, look... I think... I'm not saying... It's not a one-to-one thing. I'm not saying it's causal, but it is correlated. Like, you know, she's not just...

Like when icons such as her have such a sort of desperate and awful experience in real life while they're living through the representation of these archetypes, it's not just random. It's not coincidental. I'm not saying that's what it creates necessarily for that person, but they're related, you know? It's like you can't bring all this to life in this way

I don't know, without it, it all takes a toll, not just on the people who play it, but on our culture. Like it all has really kind of subtle, insidious, far-reaching implications. I think, you know, it's like it's fascinating to me. And I have...

Been fascinated by a lot of this for a while, working in television and film as much as I have, and then playing this particular role where it's all about kind of like analyzing and dissecting and deconstructing these ideas. Do you need a break, like a reset, like an energy reset when you're living in that? I mean, you've got a big spiritual life, correct? I do, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Tell me a little bit of that because I'm kind of fascinated and I'm going to butcher it. It's Baha'i, right? Baha'i. You're close. It's not an N, it's an H. So B-A-H-A apostrophe I. And the root of that word Baha'i is Arabic. The founder of the faith is Baha'u'llah from lived from 1817 to 1892 in Iran, then the Persian Empire and Egypt.

This is now one of the most widespread and diverse world religions, independent world religion, although the original writings are in Arabic and Persian. And so Baha means glory, light, and splendor. That's a rough sort of... And you could think of that as like the glory, light, and splendor of this age that we're all living through. I mean, the last...

200 years or so, I've seen advances in our consciousness and in our social evolution, our technological progress, the arts and sciences, everything. Everything is just blowing up. And so I think in some ways you could say...

glory, light, and splendor captures the light of these sort of spiritual forces and social forces at work in the world that we live in. And so that's, you know, I'm speaking obviously very broadly here, but that's something of what it means to be a Baha'i, is to be recognizing that. Does that help you get through season four of being a serial killer? Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean,

Just practically like just prayer and meditation as you know, so so so many people do. And so tell me about your meditation. Okay. All right. Here we go. See, I'm obsessed with people's, you know, process in that way, because I it's taken me way longer than it should have to get to actually meditating in my life. I've had people who I admire.

For years and years and years and years saying it's a big part of their life. It's a big part of their life. I've tried it, not tried it. It's just never... And then I finally doing TM. Yeah. And that's really so far been the only way that's stuck for me. But what's your process like? Well, so like I started something like 10, 12 years ago. I was always...

I mean, really kind of the origins of this for me was I grew up without any kind, I did not think of religion as a valuable resource at all. So just for that reference, like the fact that I could call myself religious now is such a plot twist. I can't recall if I, what I would have, I was not comfortable with the word God. I was not, but somehow life was always this really

really beautiful mystery to be explored, I think primarily through art and music was my, music was my thing. So, so I think, I think I was really desiring to find that sacred sort of stillness, that deep place of deep reflection that meditation can be because it reminded me of the reverence that, that great art and especially great music would, would,

create for me as even a young child. Music was always like very, very powerful. So I think by the time I was in my late teens, early 20s, I was really interested in that vibe. But, you know, back then, man, like it's amazing how quickly things progress in a way, like how common meditation is, even used as a word, but it was not common even just, what, 20 years ago. So...

I did get, so, hmm. Literally, I hate to be so pedantic about it, but like, okay, it's time for you to meditate. What are you doing? Yeah, what do I do? So for me, actually, at this point, this did not used to be the case. I do not, meditation does not exist without prayer for me, personally. It's kind of like a call and response. Because I think a lot of people who meditate are also sort of broadly agnostic in their, I am not, I welcome all perspectives and I'm really interested in finding how everybody is actually celebrating

feeling the same thing but using different words for it but the way I relate to this is is a belief in God is is is and and what I could say maybe that in a more secular sense is like that life is profoundly meaningful has clear has has a has a

has a purpose, you know, a profound purpose collectively and then also for every individual. And to me, I want to tap into that source. And that source is conscious. That source is communicative. That source is a deeply personal relationship, you know.

I do call that source God. A lot of people do too, but word is a tough word, right? A lot of people get, a lot of people get emotional kind of over that word. This all makes perfect sense to me. Right. And again, that's, I want to keep it about you, but that was, that was, you just described my journey exactly. Okay. Yeah. And I, you know, I mean, I do think in our industry, people who, yeah, people in our industry, I think have to search at some point because otherwise you will end up low, really low.

Really, really in a hard and bleak place. And actually, you know what? I would say that for everybody. But anyway, that's, I won't generalize. But yeah, so for me, meditation is actually the space after prayer where I've been sort of

And for me now, it's using specifically Baha'i prayers of which Baha'u'llah wrote countless, just beautiful, incredible, mystically intoxicating language that for me brings me, you know, I think, so this is something I've even heard in like 12 Steps a lot is when we, I'll go ahead and use some really clear sort of traditional language, like,

you know, you're, you know, you're on the right path when, when you're not praying for your will, but praying to understand God's will, you know, not, not, not, you're not asking for something as much as you were asking to be shown what it is that actually you need and, and want. And, and at that, you know, and,

And it's almost like if that's all you do, you're good to go. By the way, it makes it a lot less time consuming than doing a laundry list of things you need in your life. Actually, yeah, I agree. I don't even feel this is another thing, other side of thing. I'm not sure this is all good, but I don't feel comfortable asking for something that I want in that space. I only want to pray to just sort of be like, all right, this is where I sort of empty my cup. And then the meditation is where the cup is then filled again.

again, you know, it's like I'm listening. I'm sort of listening and receiving. And by the way, like, I don't pretend that I'm always receiving, like, true information here. I think what you need to do in order to see about that is, like, you test it out in action and then you just refine the process of, like, praying,

meditating, reflecting, acting, and then sort of like, you know... Have you ever felt that you've gotten, I don't know, however you want to call it, a download or a direct message or a God shot, they say in the program a lot, where you're like, oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah. And it's like...

An answer, a message, whatever. You ever had any of those? So I feel a lot of what you might be able to say is like direct contact. More like through my kind of prayer...

within this Baha'i framework to Baha'u'llah or to... You know, it's like... It's... I don't... To say, like, direct or... That word... You would know it if you had it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't feel that way. You would say, yes, I once had an XYZ. Right, right. Yeah, and I don't. But what I think is interesting is that I have...

constant like closeness to that space so it's much it's much um what do you call it osmosis yeah I don't ever feel like I've been given that direct thing but I've gotten a lot of osmosis which I think is almost in a way like for me at least it's preferable music

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Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Tell me about your ayahuasca experience. I have that in my notes. So that was... And you read, do you read, is this correct? You read from your ayahuasca notes?

As a bit, like a stand-up thing? No, so, okay, yes. So I was asked once to participate in something called the Ayahuasca Monologues, which was, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, like this growing... Well, it's the Vagina Monologues, but remember that show, the Vagina Monologues? Completely, yeah. I mean, I never saw it because it was booming when I was a bit young for it, and I never saw it later, but...

Yeah, it was kind of like this moth-inspired vagina monologues, but just storytelling thing around people who've, you know, participated in an ayahuasca ceremony in some capacity. And yeah, I was invited to do that. But, you know, interestingly, that was towards the end of my period where I was really...

exploring that method a lot for about two and a half years. Were you on actual ayahuasca at the time? No, no. You know, to me, so I, and people can think whatever they want, I took it very seriously. I mean, the only drugs I've ever taken much of were psychedelics, and I pursued them with a sort of clear intent. I've now been sober for, I don't know, seven, eight years. No way, me too. And I...

Actually never of all the great struggles. I've had substance has never really been one I actually couldn't really hang with them my tolerance is always very low and I was very sensitive but you know what I was using those psychedelics for was Essentially what I use all this spirituality for now without substance It's just like it's it's healing and therapy on one hand and then on the other contact with a deeper subtler reality that sort of pervades all things and

And I get into the same state with prayer meditation now that I used to rely on psychedelics for. That's insane. And that's the other thing that is now in the consciousness is ayahuasca. Literally a year ago, I feel like, was this...

thing. Not many people knew about it. Now you have like Aaron Rodgers, the Green Bay Packers talking about. Yeah. I mean, it certainly is way more mainstream. And I, and I was, and I was, you know, I'd been reading about it since I was in my late teens. There's a book by a man named Daniel Pinchbeck called Breaking Open the Head that I got when I was about like, I think 18. And,

And so that really influenced me in my pursuit of like, what is it called? Entheogens, you know, and there's just the pursuit of, of the mystical experience through the use of, of natural substances that have been used kind of throughout ancient humanity. But even that, I think now I'm not, I'm yeah, I just don't, that doesn't interest me.

all in the same way that it used to because I think let me ask you this I mean a devil's advocate thing here with ayahuasca so or mushrooms or whatever the hell it is or LSD or microdosing whatever it is like the notion that yeah you take that and you get high and you see freaky shit no fucking kidding or you take that and it opens your consciousness in a way where you're receptive and are able to see and intuit real things

Yeah. So I think it's I think I'm definitely with you in that. I'm not dismissing anybody's valid and valuable experience with their use of this stuff, because, look, I can't even though sobriety and, you know, spiritual state of intoxication without the use of substance is is is a core part of my own faith and its principles and my principles. Right.

I told, I look, I did these things and I, and part of the reason why I did these things is because I was in frigging despair at the state of the world and the state of my own heart and mind and the state of my family, the state of my, you know, the, my like just everything. And, and, and I was seeking it.

for what I now understand to be, as I said, healing and therapy. Now, these things are referred to in indigenous cultures often as medicine. And I think taken in that context, they absolutely are and can be. And I think anybody who pursues them with like a pure heart in that manner is probably going to benefit. I just think that we live in an age where

We live in such a material as opposed to spiritual age, at least superficially. Like, you know, while we maybe have more spiritual power than ever, we don't use that language. We don't use that. And so I think we're, you know, I mean, mental illness, like those rates just keep skyrocketing. There's just proliferating all kinds of new specific things that can happen to our mind in a way. And I don't think it's all a coincidence. I mean, to me...

All of these things are being used as tools to get into contact with a deeper reality. And that is a reality, though, you know. Now, again, you can abuse anything. Little bits of poison are medicinal, but in more than moderate amounts, they're toxic. You've answered, though...

What I was really asking was that the use of hallucinogens, whatever, for lack of a better term, I'm using it broadly, is not that you hallucinate. I saw a huge lizard and he was talking. It's a medicine that is able to somehow, in ways we don't really understand, get you in touch with another realm layer of disease.

an existing consciousness. Yes. And yes. And I do think the most pure form is, is again, like the entirely human use of prayer. It's one that we're as a society really out of touch with, you know, prayer and then action and bringing it into reality, bringing it into social reality, bringing it into your personal life. Like to me, I think that

the reason we need these particular substances as a medicine, if we do, is because we're such a deeply traumatized culture, you know, kind of the world over. And that's okay, by the way. I think like people using them for that reasons, like great. But I do feel strongly also that it's like,

We're in an age now where we need to tap into the power of human potential as opposed to seeking it elsewhere constantly. So I'm very much of two minds on it. While I appreciate my use of it, and I certainly wouldn't judge others for it, to me, I'm like...

Kind of if you need it for healing, get it and then continue and not depend on it. You know what I mean? Of course. Totally shifting gears. Yeah, please. By the way, there might there might not be a bigger gear shift than this. Tell me about TikTok. All right. So you are like you come on TikTok. You've got like two point two million followers already. How did you do that? Well, it's because you're on your show and your show's got. Yeah, my show's big. Your show skews everything.

I think your audience is a younger audience for that show, for sure, right? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, yes, I would never resist that. But it also seems to be quite broad these days. I mean, it is, because the show is mature, certainly. It's mature content. It's more mature content. Sex and violence is the most mature thing one can depict.

You did a lip sync to Taylor's song? Yeah, that was the... So for years, actually, I've been thinking, you know, in the right way, I'll get on TikTok. That'd be fun. Yeah, yeah. And actually, even years prior, back in what? I think 2018, maybe? 2019? Yeah.

with a friend of mine named Christoph Grissel, who's a musician. He had a song called I Did It that was... It was sort of the iconic precursor to me joining TikTok because it was a viral moment in and of itself. It was his song. We were lip syncing to it and doing a little dance. Gotcha. And that went very viral. There are a lot of you, meaning me, of the show you memes. So already I think like me...

Joe Goldberg, my character on the show You, and then Dan Humphrey, my character on Gossip Girl. This triangle of characters. Mm-hmm.

was already like a me, me, vaguely zeitgeisty kind of thing and interfaced with TikTok already. So I think, you know what I mean? So it's like, it was just waiting for the right moment. And then Taylor's song came out and it just, because the whole point is like, I'm lip syncing to her song Antihero and my character Joe is, technically he's not really an antihero. He's a villain, but you know, he's being portrayed as an antihero. But yeah, it makes perfect sense.

So it just was a, it was just like a lightning only strikes once kind of thing. And it really worked. That's sick. That's so cool. Do you, how often do you make TikToks? Well, it's only been, it was like mid or late October.

For the first three weeks, I was like, yeah, let's try this. Let's do this. And the last three weeks, I've been slammed and just really more in the life of family. So I haven't made them. But, you know, I'm like, it's fun. It's using them to sort of, with my podcast, Pod Crushed,

We make a lot more TikToks that are more directly we're using to just sort of build a fan base for the show. So that's like how it's working. That's smart. Podcrushed, everybody. Don't forget if you found this even remotely interesting, which hopefully you did because I did. You can get Podcrushed wherever you get your podcasts.

Your podcast. Your pods crushed. Yeah, I have to say, I love TikTok. I'm obsessed with TikTok because the algorithm. I'm on TikTok. I think I do fun stuff on it. But the algorithm knows me better almost than I know myself and shows me just the stuff I'm obsessed with. That's what algorithms do. And by the way, it only shifts on a dime. Yeah.

it just, it's really kind of intense. And I hate to say it, but I also think it listens to me. Because I will say, I'll say a very specific deep cut dive type of thing. And then the next thing you know, literally the next time I go on TikTok, there's something related to that. And it happens, it happens three times a week. This is what people say about, so I'm not on the scrolling part of it as much as the

Yeah, I'm not as familiar with it as I am with the other platforms. And, you know, Twitter's kind of fallen apart and...

Instagram, I haven't really been on them. So I feel like I don't get this as much as I hear about this. So it's definitely a thing. I watched this thing called, what is it, The Social Dilemma on Netflix? So the main point that they make there that I think is an interesting question is like, where do we fall on how... Do we think our devices are listening and then responding, or do we think that the algorithms are just with...

Scary precision predicting our behavior. I can just tell you with my experience, and I can give you literally a specific at least once a week, if not twice. Right. I told a series of jokes the other day on the set with a very specific punchline and various, like a bunch of iterations of the same joke. Mm-hmm.

I went on TikTok and someone was telling that joke. Wow. I've never had a TikTok where someone told a joke, let alone a joke...

with the exact same setup, the exact same, literally. And that goes on and on and on and on. On and on and on and on. So this is, man, this is like, this is, so either the algorithms are predicting that, which is just as disturbing. I mean, consider what would be necessary in order to be able to predict that behavior. The algorithms would be pretty sophisticated. And I think in some cases that's what's happening. But if it's specifically being, if we're being listened to in that way by a number of apps and by a number of, so either somebody has to listen to that data, that,

sound and then respond to it or there's a machine that's listening and able to respond that's a high level of of of surveillance no matter which way you slice it listen i i and it's probably look it's easier for for for somebody like me to say because my you know my anonymity privacy doesn't left the barn many many many years ago yeah and that horse is through the

it's gone. Yeah. I just assume just that everything is listening to everybody at any time. I sort of, yeah. And look, at the end of the day, if you've got nothing to hide and, you know, it's like, okay, all right. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? I mean... I think it has, I think it, to me, it's, because I'm with you on that because of the sort of lack of privacy and anonymity that I have. It's not some, to me, it's not about like

I don't cherish my personal data, quote unquote. To me, I think this question is more of a moral one is like, who's going to start regulating all of these corporations that have all this information and wield the power with nothing but profit in mind, you know? 100%. Yeah. And again, I feel like that's

That horse is out of the barn. But here's my little future prediction. I feel like with what's going on with TikTok right now, with Elon, and I'm just starting to see it with younger people, that I feel like we're at the end of the golden age of social media participation as we know it. I feel like there's going to be, and this comes back to what we talked about with meditation and things like that and

I think you're going to see where there's going to be a whole movement where people are like, yeah, I'm on a social media fast. And it's going to be cool to not be on social media. I really believe that's coming.

Like, look, it'll always be what it is, but there's always the cool kids, right? There's always the group of cool kids. The iconoclasts, they're the ones who go against things. They're the punk rocks. When there was, you know, Yacht Rock, the punks came up. There's always a group that comes up and sticks their finger in the eye of whatever other person is doing. I think the next movement is to not be on social media. I think, yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think that's probably already happening in society.

smaller numbers. I don't know. I mean, yeah, it's, man, the future is very unpredictable because... You know, it's like that thing of like, there's not a kid in the world that would be caught dead on Facebook today. That's true. Yeah, I think that's true. But I remember, because I have kids, I remember when they couldn't get enough of it.

Yeah. Everybody, there was like, I remember I was like, I'm going to, what is it? I'm going to change my profile. Is that what the hell used to do? Like we used to, did you have a, or my status, my status. It was like, oh, I'm going to change my status was like a big thing. Now they're like, this is what my grandma does. Yeah. So you, you related to it through your kids. I didn't have kids then Facebook, or at least one's old enough to be, um, to be on Facebook. And I never, I never had it. So I don't, Facebook is the most foreign one to me. Weirdly.

Yeah, my only opinion is that it was cool at one point and could not be less cool if it tried. And I think that's where all of it's headed. I think you're going to be like, ew, you're on social media? I think you're right, man. I mean, to me, what it is is like...

I think what TikTok is, so there's a lot of things about TikTok you could paint as objectively sort of negative. But one thing that it is doing, I think it's a reflection of the sort of end of an age of celebrity focus. Because look, think of the people who are really big on TikTok. They're not coming from our industry. And that's the point. And a lot of celebrities seem to falter on TikTok because there's an expectation that they'll just sort of

be received with applause and it's basically a bunch of kids who are like, what? Who are you? Unless you sort of abide by their sort of like, you know, if you could call them social laws on there. Yeah, yeah. And so even though there's a lot of, you know, big companies

stuff with TikTok. I'm not saying it's all good, but I think the way young people are using it, it's a reflection of them not being interested in, well, what is the, yeah, it's just not a place for like disseminating information the way that it seemed to used to be valuable. And that now it's just a place to like,

create sort of i don't know irreverent ideas and then it's like yeah and then hopefully like be on it less and do other things i mean listen i mean i where else am i gonna get you dancing to a song yeah i mean there's value there's actually nowhere else actually no there actually is nowhere else yeah every now and then i'll post on instagram too but not really

Yeah, that's good. Well, this is great. I thank you for I'm going to check out your podcast. It sounds like it's right up my of my alley. Thanks. Sure. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm going to go take ayahuasca and meditate. That's that's my takeaway from this. You never know what you're going to get. That was so fun for me because I never in a million years thought I would be down the wormhole that he and I just got in.

And it was super fun. But that's why we do this. That's why I do the show. And I hope that's why you listen. Anyway, ring, ring. What's that? Oh, it's the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep.

Hey, Rob. Love, love, love your podcast. Grace Grant from Greenville, South Carolina. My favorite Thursday ride to school is with you every Thursday. I am a school librarian at an elementary school. Have you ever considered writing a children's book? I think you would make a great book on perseverance or finding your gift or, I don't know, something super cool. I would love for you to write a children's book and, of course, would love for you to come read it to my students.

Keep doing what you do. We love listening to you every Thursday. Thanks. Bye. Oh, that is so sweet. Thank you. I actually did think for a minute about writing a children's book even before I wrote my memoirs and never did it. I have a character. My character is Sharky Malarkey.

He's a shark. And Sharky Malarkey has a problem with the truth. He likes to exaggerate. He's very lovable. And so maybe I need to write the Sharky Malarkey book. Hmm. Okay. You've kind of inspired me. God darn it. Now you put a good idea into my head. All right. If I write...

Sharky malarkey. I will come to Greenville. This would be like The Outsiders when the librarian wrote a letter to Francis Ford Coppola and said, would you ever make a movie about the book The Outsiders? And Francis Ford Coppola did. Then he premiered the movie for the kids around that library. I'll do the same with my book if it ever happens. Thank you. Great idea. I'll see you next week. As usual, why don't you send this to a friend? Send the show out. You know what I mean?

introduce some folks to it. That would be great. I would really appreciate it. And give us a good review on Apple. That's always helpful. And in the meantime, we're going to keep making some good stuff and we'll be back next week with more fun here on Literally with I, Rob Lowe. You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Rob Schulte, with help from associate producer, Sarah Bagar. Our research is done by Alyssa Grahl.

The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Joanna Solitaroff at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. All of the music on this podcast was composed by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally with Rob Lowe. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

At Ashley, you'll find colorful furniture that brings your home to life. Ashley makes it easier than ever to express your personal style with an array of looks in fun trending hues to choose from, from earth tones to vibrant colors to calming blues and greens. Ashley has pieces for every room in the house in the season's most sought after shades. A more colorful life starts at Ashley. Shop in store online today. Ashley, for the love of home.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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