178. How to Get on the Same Page with Your Partner about Money
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On today's episode, we are live from Neptune Theater in Seattle, Washington. Whoa! Seattle! We are here to talk about love and money tonight. We are going to have couples, and they are going to share things that they have never shared before. Sophia is an ultrasound tech. Charlie is a filmmaker. They struggle to get on the same page with money. Charlie, when you heard that Sophia applied, what was your reaction? Of course you did. Oh!

I need someone else to give Charlie advice about money. Why not learn in front of a thousand people? And we also have Megan and Ryan, who are in their 30s, and they are playing it small compared to their net worth. I don't automate mine. Why does a dentist have manual? I don't trust the robots. There are things like houses that are still really hard. It's a weird middle ground to be in. Middle ground compared to like 100 millionaires.

Tell the crowd, what'd you get? I bought some Birkenstocks and I didn't wait for the Nordstrom anniversary sale. I laugh about it because, you know, like I did take a lower paying job. It still pays $300,000 a year. Like it's fine. I love Seattle.

Welcome to the Money for Couples show, formerly known as I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Today's episode is a special one. You're going to hear me work with two couples live on stage in front of hundreds of people at a recent event that I did in Seattle. One couple struggles to have healthy conversations about money, and they need help speaking each other's language. The other couple struggles to turn the page on their finances.

They are successful at a young age, but they still agonize over small expenses. You'll also hear me introduce some new exercises from my upcoming book, Money for Couples.

I'm going to be doing more events like this for my live book tour this January, and tickets have just gone on sale. I would love to see you. Go to iwt.com slash book tour or grab the link in the show notes below to get your ticket. I would love to see you in your city. Now, let's get to the show. All right, y'all. We're going to need to get that energy way up.

Please welcome your host from Netflix's How to Get Rich, New York Times bestselling author and the host of the podcast, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, Ramit Sethi. Whoa, damn. Oh my God, Seattle. We're here to talk about love and money tonight. What's the first words that come to mind when you hear the word money? Let's hear it. Scary. What else? Stressful. Anybody have anything positive to say? What the f***?

Damn. A bunch of sad, morose people here tonight. Oh, it's so sad. Money's so scary. All right. We're going to fix that tonight. We got an hour and a half. We're going to fix it. I'll tell you, I can't believe that I get to talk about love and money and emotions for a living. Like, I'll be sitting there. I'm three and a half hours into a conversation with somebody. They're telling me something, you know, from their childhood. And I'm empathizing. I'm listening. And I'm saying...

That's really tough. I wish you didn't have to go through that. That sounds really hard. And then four weeks later, I look at the actual YouTube video and this is what my face looked like. And sometimes I go, why'd you do that? Like, I can't believe I have this job. Oh my God. Well, we are here to talk about love and money tonight and I want to get a sense of who's in the room. So if you are in a relationship, let me hear you.

Nice. And if you are single, let me hear you. Damn. Okay. After this will be the singles mixer. If you grew up in a family that used the phrase, we can't afford it. Let me hear you. Okay. And if you grew up in a family where you never talked about money, let me hear you. It's interesting.

You can tell so much by just a few questions about how somebody grew up with money. It's so fascinating. Oh, by the way, do we have anybody here who dragged their partner here

Anybody? Let me see your hands. Let me see that. Whoa, right in the front. Oh, my God. Let me go out on a limb and guess. Who's the person who dragged their partner? Yes. And do you listen to every... You binge the podcast, watch the Netflix show, read the book, tell him, like, you got to listen to this. Have you thought about that? Look at this. She's just smiling and she's covering her face now. She's, oh, my God, how did he know? And then this guy's like, this...

I hear him all the time in our house. And now I have to sit in the front row. This sucks. All right. Well, one way or another, I'm glad you're here. All right. And we do get to talk about love and money. And the reason that I'm so the reason I'm doing this is that I think most of us treat money passively. We sit back, we get a bill and we just shrug and go, I guess I spent that much.

And we see somebody on Instagram in Tahiti and we go, must be nice. And that's pretty much the extent of our relationship with money. We feel bad about it once every four to six weeks and then we paper over it and go back to life. I just think it's so much more fun to be active with money, don't you? To be able to design your rich life, to be able to set standards for what you want to do with money.

And to use your money, whether you're solo or in a relationship, to create your rich life. It's awesome to read a blog or read a book about money, but I think it's way more fun to see how other people are treating their money.

Because I think there's something so magical about watching real people talk and share everything. When I started the podcast, we had to figure out how to convince people to share their numbers. And the way that we did it was just to tell them point blank, we're not here to... This is not a gotcha show. We're not here to trick you. We want you to share your real numbers because have you ever heard anyone else's real numbers? No. No.

It's the most private thing there is. People talk about their sex lives. They'll talk about anything, but not how much debt they have. Definitely not how much income they have. That is why tonight you will all be revealing your income to me. No, what we are going to do, though, is we are going to we're going to watch real people become active with their money. And I find it incredibly inspiring.

So I'm coming out to the audience tonight. This isn't just a passive show where we sit and we hear something. That's not what I want to do. I want to make it active. I want to hear from you. I'm going to come out there. But we're also going to have couples come up tonight. And they are going to share things that they have never shared before. Can you imagine the courage it takes to come in front of a crowd like this, hundreds of people, and share it all? I think it's pretty awesome. And for that reason, I would like you

to get on your feet and welcome our first couple, Sophia and Charlie. I'm Sophia. I am 41 and I do cardiac ultrasounds. My name is Charlie. I'm 40 and I'm a filmmaker. I'm like a science geeky person. So I do minute numbers and science stuff and he's an artist. On the financial side, there can be some contention, but largely we really support each other's work. I am looking forward to figuring out how to collaborate with my husband about money.

You guys are the best. How you doing? All right. How you feeling about our conversation today? Terrified. Okay. How about you? Yeah, I'm nervous. Okay. All right. Well, first things first, we're all here for you. All right. That's the most important thing. I want to know your story. If you had to describe yourself, your relationship with money in a sentence, what would it be?

What would it be, Sophia? Type A personality. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Charlie? Opportunistic. Huh? What's that? When I see it arrive, I use it. I love the charitable description of that. Opportunistic. What the f***? Okay, I'm with you. Okay, so who applied to speak to me? I did. How come? Because...

I need someone else to give Charlie advice about money. Oh, my God. So this is you want me to come in and tell him she's right and you're wrong. Is that what you want? No, no, no, no. I have a lot to learn. Okay. All right. And Charlie, when you heard that Sophia applied, what was your reaction? I mean, I was like, of course you did. But I also said I'm game. Like I at this point, I have like

No pride around how I use money. I know that I have a lot to learn and I'm excited to learn. So why not learn in front of a thousand people? All right. So I heard that you bought a four-wheeler recently when Sophia was out of town. Is that correct? What happened? Well, it wasn't that recent and I no longer have it. So let me just start with that. 2019, I think it was.

She was in Florida. I was home alone. And I had some room on a credit card and a wild idea that a four-wheeler would benefit our family. First of all, is a four-wheeler like an ATV? Yeah, a little one. It's only like a 200cc. It was a small little one. I found a picture of a go-kart, of my daughter on a go-kart, and then on an ATV, a four-wheeler. And it was like...

Guess what happened? Yeah. So you had room on your credit card. What does that mean? Well, I had an available balance that was big enough to cover the purchase of that four-wheeler. Okay, so she was out of town. So what did you do? I mean, I bought it and I took it home. And I can't remember if I sent the picture that night or the next day, but it also then immediately turned into a phone call. Okay.

You texted her a picture of this new four-wheeler and then she called you like within seconds. I believe so. That tracks. And what was the conversation like? Well, so this was somewhat of a low time maybe in my life. And I purchased it emotionally and she also knew the space that I was in. So I think she was like, are you okay? Like,

And I'm like, yeah, you know, but I think she also, you know, knew the motivation behind it a little bit of just like this might fill a void. OK, is that how you remember it, Sophia? Yeah. OK. All right. OK, so why are we here today? So from the very first time that we met.

I always looked up to her as far as like how she used money. And, you know, she had a really good perspective on money. And I, like I said, have always used money as like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to get from here to here. And I would just use it. And saving was never something that I had learned about. And so she's been spending 10 years trying to teach me how to

To save money. And I just turned 40 and she's 41. And now I'm like, oh, yeah, retirement actually is coming. And the future actually is going to happen. But I've always used money as if like Peter Pan syndrome, like I'm going to be young forever. And you said, I have a hard time holding on to my money.

True. Right. And then you said this thing, I wasn't sure what it meant. I can't afford this lifestyle, but I'm married to you. What does that mean? I mean, she can afford more kind of on a weekly basis. I also want to, I want to mention that I would like some advice on this actually, but we keep our money completely separate and we don't have any joint accounts. She wants me to be good at money because she's good at her money.

And so we don't have any bridge financially. Do you know why that is? Well, she said flat out that she doesn't trust me with her money. But how long have you been together? Together for 10 years. We just celebrated our eight year anniversary a couple weeks ago. Congratulations. We'll be right back. You know, I love great design, great hotels, great restaurants, great websites. But it's not my personal strength to be able to do it myself.

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Does it concern you? Like the fact that you integrate probably everything else, but not money. Does that set off red flags for you? Sure. Yeah. I mean, especially some downstream things when we are retired, um,

She has a different life and vision than what I think I'm going to be able to afford. And I know that from looking at my tiny little IRA compared to what she accumulates with her employer. And she has what we call a real job. And I'm self-employed and I make art for a living. Okay. All right. For lack of better words, I'm a filmmaker. Okay. Let me hear from you, Sophia. Why are we here? Um,

Yeah, I need to figure out how to communicate with Charlie about these things because I end up getting nervous to hurt his feelings or to say something that I'll regret. And then I don't say anything at all. What's an example? We're supposed to be going on a trip. And what ends up happening is I end up booking my trip. And then I'm like, OK, well, if you decide you have money to come and you want to come.

Then you book your trip. Okay, that's a interesting approach, right? Like with an intimate partner like hey, I booked mine Yes, go ahead and do your thing if you can and so does he end up coming? Sometimes okay. Can I mention that it's only for trips when she goes to see her parents when we do a vacation It's so interesting

And then he never has the money. He's like, I just can't make it. She doesn't treat our vacations that way, though. Who pays for the vacations? I do. Okay. All right.

Whoa, you can just feel the energy in the room right now. The laughter, the applause, the crowd is rooting for this couple. Now it's one thing to listen to this show from your car or on your phone, but it's entirely another thing to be in a room full of people who want to learn about living a rich life. Nothing beats it. Nothing beats being in person.

I would love to have you at the next event. So make sure you check out when I'm coming to your city this January at iwt.com slash booktour. When you talk about money, what happens?

I just end up covering whatever needs to be covered. Not what do you do. What happens when you talk about money? First of all, I assume you bring up money, correct? Sometimes. Sometimes I just don't even bring it up at all because I don't even know where to go with it. Okay. And Charlie, do you ever bring money up? Occasionally, but when it's a problematic thing, it's usually something that she brings up.

If we dream up an idea, I'll start to break down, like, well, what's something like that going to cost? And is that something that we can actually, you know, do? But on a week-to-week basis and the things that she buys, it's never a conversation that

until after she's bought it and then she tells me, oh, by the way, I just spent $300 on groceries. And then I feel a pressure of like, hmm, am I supposed to pay half of that back or what am I supposed to do there? But the conversation doesn't continue. It's just like... A lot of unspoken things, don't you think? Yeah. The whole like, if you have the money, go ahead. Or, hey, I spent 300 bucks on groceries, dot, dot, dot. There's a lot unspoken in those three dots. Have you ever had a good conversation about money?

Yes. We fixed up one of your credit cards to be 0% interest and set up a plan to pay it off. Means who? Means I saw it in the mail and I said, we are doing this. Okay, that's interesting. I didn't argue, though. It was a good idea. Okay.

Yeah, we consolidated, I think, three of my cards onto one zero APR for 18 months. And then I'm going to just pay all that. That's not the point. The fact that you brought up his credit card and drove the fixing of it, don't you think that's more interesting than the APR? Yes. Okay. Y'all want to recalibrate the dynamic of this money relationship? Yes. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I think that a lot of couples have never had their first...

healthy, positive conversation about money. I think I've met couples who have been married 25 years. They never had one positive, healthy conversation about money. So what do you say we're here? We've got everybody here tonight. What do you say we just do it right now? Okay. Let's do it on stage. Okay. So I call it your first positive money conversation.

Now let's just reframe this. All right. So first of all, let's just think about the psychology of talking about money. Charlie, when you think about talking about money, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Scared. Okay. Yes. And Sophia? Saving. Wow. Okay. Good. I appreciate the honest answers. I think that a lot of times we have very high emotionally loaded words that come along with the idea of talking about money.

And that's because we have this deep down, this invisible script that we need to have the conversation about money, the conversation. Let's reframe it. We get to have lots of conversations about money. We're in no rush. We get to talk about this together for the rest of our lives. So the first one, the whole point is just for us to feel good.

That's it. Okay. That's the, that's the mindset I want you going into this conversation with. Okay. Um, let's do a quick lightning round. Um, you can do this with your partner, um, when you're having this conversation, but let's just do it right now. The lightning round is every person has like a list of, or some people have a list of things they want to talk about

about money. They just haven't brought it up. They don't know how to bring it up, etc. And it could be as small as like, what's this $16 charge at the gas station last Wednesday? It could be as big as, will we have enough? So let's do a quick lightning round with each of you just brain dump. There's nothing too small or too big, just things you would eventually like to talk about. Go ahead, Sophia first. Can we travel for two years? Okay. Is there a time where we can bridge...

our finances to some degree. Great. When will your credit cards be paid off? How much do you wish I made? How will we teach our kids about money? How will we teach our kids about money? I want to reply. Keep going. Will you end up with a retirement account? Will you help me make a retirement account?

Okay. I like these questions. What do you notice as each of you is asking these questions, maybe for the first time? I feel accusatory. Just asking them feels accusatory? Yes. Okay. What about you, Charlie? I mean, I feel vulnerable. I feel like the last 10 years, this has always been a really vulnerable topic. And it's just like, well, I mean...

I have a lot to offer and I have a lot to bring to our relationship. And then I just know that I always come up so short here. So bringing it up is always like a topic that's like, "Hmm, okay, where's this going to go?" You did it. I mean, both of you brought up questions that I suspect you've never even asked out loud before, right? So already, we're well ahead of where you've been. That's great, right?

We don't need to answer every question. Often, if you're sitting down with your partner and you do this, you know, with lots of time, you can pick the one that is most important and you can start there. And usually those are questions like, what would it look like if we both felt good about money? Just that. How can we talk to each other without fighting?

How can I get you to be as active as I am with our finances? Or how do we teach our kids about money? All those things. Those are big, powerful questions. Okay. So I'm going to give you a little framework. Okay.

three steps and I'm going to make it really simple, simple outline. And then we're going to do the conversation right now. So I'm going to give you a little outline. You can get this outline for the first positive conversation about money and other tools from my new book, Money for Couples, that comes out in January. To pre-order it, go to iwt.com slash money for couples. First step for your conversation is put all those questions aside.

You know that each of you wants to talk about them. At some point you will, but not today. First question is why this meeting is going to be awesome.

I want you to start there because so many of us approach money like, oh God, we got to talk about this thing now. Let's just reframe the whole thing. If we can choose how we're going to feel about it, why don't we choose to feel good? So you might say something like, hey, I've been reading this book on money and there's all these different ways we can talk about money and we can actually save more money and spend more money on the things we love.

So I'd like for each of you, that's my words. I would like for you in your own words to share with each other why this meeting is going to be awesome. The meeting will be awesome because we'll feel more connected and have a plan. I feel like it will help us actualize our potential if we can get on the same page about money. Good. Okay, great. Step one, check why this meeting is going to be awesome. Step two, Charlie, tell her how you feel about money today.

I feel a little bit like I'm in a tailspin, although I will say I've regained control, but I'm approaching the ground and I'm trying to lift back up. Charlie? I don't get it. Tell her how you feel. I feel scared about money, but I also feel optimistic. Honestly, the times that we've spent listening to the podcast and watching the Netflix show has brought a lot of clarity

to where you're coming from. And I just know that I have a lot to learn about how to invest. But I do feel scared. Sophia, same question. How do you feel about money today? I feel like I always want to save it. And I think that I'm nervous that if you don't start trying to save it or acknowledge it, then I am going to be like a money hoarder and never spend it because I'm trying to balance you.

your lackadaisical attitude about the future. Okay. It's honest. Last question. How do you want to feel about money? This time, Sophia first. I want to just be on the same page and have a plan that we're both working toward. That's not a feeling. I don't want to feel like a hoarder about money. I want to be able to enjoy it and spend it on things that I enjoy. What's that feeling?

You want to feel? Content. I don't know. Yeah, content. Okay. Charlie? Yeah, I want to feel excited about money. And I want to feel like we're in control. I think that that was a really good first conversation about money. It has no numbers. It's all about where are we today? Take an honest stock. Where do we want to go? And then there's plenty and plenty of time

for you to explore all those questions that you talked about. I'd like for you to continue on with this conversation and I'd love for you to report back to me in a week. Let me know where that conversation has evolved. Okay? Sounds good. All right. Let's give him a round of applause. Sophia and Charlie, thank you very much. Wow. Let's give it up again. Sophia and Charlie, thanks for coming out. That takes a lot of courage.

Okay. How did that compare to conversations that you have had about money? What did you notice there? Just shout it out. No numbers. All the nerds in the room are like, but where is the fixed cost ratio? Freaking nerds can't put your spreadsheet away. The irony is that I'm that guy too. I love calculating this stuff, but I have to put it away sometimes too. What else did you notice?

A lot of feelings. In fact, at one point, I said, what do you want to feel? And the answer was, I want to have a plan. But that's not a feeling. We have to remember that no matter how analytical you are or no matter how frustrated you are, we're trying to start with these powerful visions and feelings. Because trust me, you're going to forget about 3.68% two weeks from now. But you won't forget...

We both want to take our kids to Mexico and we want to do a salsa making class. And that is why we are increasing our savings rate. That's a powerful vision. And those feelings come right along with it. Okay. I love seeing couples having these conversations. You can see that it's hard and you slip back into old patterns.

And a lot of it isn't clean. It's not like the movies where everyone says everything crisply. But to me, that's the beautiful part. That's real. It's how we actually talk when the doors are closed. So I just, I love seeing it and I want to keep going. I want to now bring out our next couple. You're going to love them. We'll bring them out on stage right after this word from our sponsors.

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I am Megan, I'm 37, and I'm a dentist. I'm Ryan, I'm 36, and I'm a software engineering manager. My husband had already been implementing many of the things since 2009. I don't automate, I have a thing about testing the robots, so I do everything manually. We really do have some difficulties discussing money when we disagree.

about the approach. I'm hoping to kind of get more on the same page there and learn ways to talk about it that are, you know, make us happier instead of frustrated. I'm nervous that I have some family in the audience, so I'm a little anxious to see what happens after. How you doing? Good. Welcome. How's it going? Excited to be here. These are bright lights. How are you feeling about our conversation?

I'm a little nervous. Okay, nervous? Yeah, I don't know what we're going to talk about. Who wanted to speak to me today? You did. Okay, okay. Well, we'll get to it. Let's see. If I say the word money, what is the first word that comes to mind for you? Exhausted. Wow, okay. Protective.

Interesting. Exhausted and protective. Yep. Okay. Interesting. Let me learn a little bit more about you. Megan, I hear that you love a great deal. Yes. Tell me about when you decided to buy a bike for your son. So we have a three and a half year old son and he was ready for a pedal bike.

And I was spiraling between a $250 bike versus a $500 bike, which is very expensive for a toddler. I decided on the $250, but I decided to see if I could find a used one. And we had several arguments about Ryan would rather just click, buy it online, full price and get over it. And I messaged some people on OfferUp and Facebook Marketplace and did all that. And finally, I did get a deal and I did find it used.

How long did it take you? Well, from the first conversation to purchasing, 12 hours. But I was spiraling between the two brands. Okay. You did that all in 12 hours? I did everything for about two weeks. And then once I actually found it, I got it in 12 hours. Oh, okay. Interesting answer. All right. And then, Ryan, you like to just click it and buy. Is that right? So...

Yeah, I just, I think a lot before I decide to buy something. And then once I've decided to buy it, I'm just like, I'm just going to get it right now. I'm going to be done with it. I don't want to think about it anymore. And so, like she was talking about, we're like, we went back and forth on different bikes, brands for a couple of days, a couple of weeks. And I was like, can we please just buy a bike? I really don't care which one anymore. Right. Okay. What do you say we take a look at your numbers?

All right, let's put them up on screen. So let's see here. We have a net worth of $4.2 million. First of all, look at that income as well. Damn, give it up. Nice work. You guys look pretty young for this net worth. Oh, we are in Seattle. Never mind. All right. First of all, congratulations. That's awesome. Thank you. How does it feel to see those numbers up on screen?

To be honest, I didn't know it was that number until about three months ago. We keep everything separate. Why? Not anymore? No, our accounts are still separate. But I was watching an episode of Shark Tank and they were talking about prenups. And I finally said, I made a spreadsheet of all the accounts I believed he had. I said, you need to fill in the blanks once a month. So we started filling in the blanks once a month. And each month,

It just keeps getting higher. Wait, okay. I mean, that's usually how it works. Right. And the stock market's been really hot. I was very shocked at these numbers and us combined. How much did you think you had? I knew how much I had was about a million. And he...

had a lot more. And yeah, we had talked about it a little bit and I had told her that I think I had about 2 million and she had 1 million and then we had a house and we're like, okay, well that's about four. But until we did this and you see all those numbers there, it really didn't sink in. Well, it's very impressive. It doesn't surprise me that you didn't know. 50% of the couples I talked to don't even know their household income. Which...

which is mind blowing, but that's the facts. Doesn't surprise me. Kind of surprising that you haven't combined your income or your finances. Why was that? So we keep things separate for one, I think it's easy. And two,

I have a little bit of a pride issue knowing that I'm bringing in lesser income. And so I want to know that all my income, I earned it because once it's combined, once our payrolls are combined, it's hard to say who earned what. And we do have a joint account that we pay all of our like family expenses out of. So, uh, we have joined it to that sense. And, um,

Yeah, all of our mortgage and trips and all of the things that we do together, we do all pay for that out of the same account that we share. Okay. I want to know how you got here. How did you get to these numbers? Ryan? Yeah. So I'm a software engineer. So the very first job I got out of college, I was making more money than both of my parents combined. I was making $80,000 a year. And I was like, this is the best thing ever. Woohoo. Yeah.

And so I did that for several years and it came to a point where I...

was talking to kind of a startup and they were like hey we want you to come and you know i thought it was a little risky uh but i was like well you know they got some you got some good rsus uh that might work out for us um and and so i took that took that job and you know we eventually did go public and like those were our you know best earning years uh and so uh you know definitely you know just

The way I've always said it is we didn't make enough to retire, but it was a really good paycheck. But I've just been consistently getting more and more income until actually the last couple of years. I took a job that was a little bit lower paying because I thought it'd be more fun. Well, congratulations. Thank you. That's amazing. I'm a dentist. And so I spent eight years in school.

So when I graduated, and I've always had a very frugal mindset, and then I graduated, I was really set on paying off all my debt. So I paid it off within three years. And then I met Ryan, and we've just never stopped bonding.

being frugal. But we still, you know, we live in Seattle. We still travel. We have a kid. So I'm not saying that we're not eating rice and beans, but we're also not going to Michelin restaurants, you know, on every trip. Okay. Just some trips.

When we met, she was actually living in the basement room with a friend of hers who had a family. So she was living with a family, you know, with a husband, wife, two kids in the basement room paying $600 a month just so she could save more money and pay off all those loans. Wow. What do you think about that? I...

I'm still glad I did it. And after I paid off my loans, the next day, I had $200 in bank account and I went and got a BMW and I will do it again. What? Is this for real? Because I knew once I wasn't making $5,000 student loan payment, that cash flow... No, I don't mind that, but why'd you get a BMW? Because... This car sucks! It was awesome. It was fast. And I just, I loved it. How often do you still have it? No, because we moved downtown and we were walking to work, so I didn't need to pay for that.

Did you park diagonally when you had the BMW? Just tell the truth. I was not an a**hole.

I parked in the line. Okay, fine. I believe you. I believe you. All right. Ryan, I heard that you had your finances all automated per I Will Teach You To Be Rich. Everything was flowing the way it's supposed to flow, like a beautiful painting. And then I heard that, Megan, you unautomated the finances. Is that true? No. So I don't touch his. I don't automate mine. I'm manual. Huh? Why? What?

Wait, I want to hear why it's manual. Why does a dentist have manual? I don't trust the robots. Huh? I don't trust automatic withdrawals because I like to see the bill to catch any fraudulent charges before paying it. Like how often does a fraudulent charge happen? On like my garbage utility bill, they'll charge me for extra garbage. I'll call and complain and they'll take it off. What's your income? A lot. A lot, right? Yeah.

I don't know what the breakdown is, but it's like, it's a high income. Okay. So you unautomated your finances. You manually contribute or you pay your bills every single month. How long does that take you? When the email comes in, here's the bill. Probably from getting the email to paying it, 60 seconds. That's pretty fast. Yeah. Do you think that, do you like what Ryan does with automating his stuff? No, because I know he's not checking for fraud on his credit card. Yeah.

Fair, right? Fair. Okay. I don't. So I wanted to, I love you two. The reason I really like, I mean, I love every couple that I speak to. And I brought you on because, you know, for a lot of folks, especially young folks, it's to have $4 million is quite unusual. Okay. I think we all have to acknowledge that. But at the same time, you are providing a crystal ball into what

Will happen for us. Maybe not 4 million. Maybe it's half of that. Whatever the number is. But the idea, if you invest consistently and you have a high income and you save and invest a lot, you're going to have money. Okay? You just happen to do it really young, which is awesome. But some of us, it's going to take longer. It doesn't matter. So what happens when we have that much money? Do we still live in a $600 a month basement? Probably not. I doubt you're living there now.

But what needs to change for us? I wanted to run a little calculation because I think you might be playing a little small. Do you think that's possible?

I told you he was going to say that. She did. And I told her she'd be excited that you'd say it. Yes. I know these last few weeks, I've been binging all the podcasts. I've realized I need to live a richer life. Oh. So I have purchased some things full price recently. Wow. Tell us. Tell us. Tell the crowd. What'd you get? Wow. I bought some Birkenstocks and I didn't wait for the Nordstrom anniversary sale. Keep going. Keep going.

I bought my kid a $70 helmet, which is a solid helmet. We spend almost as much on the helmet as the bike. Yeah. And I have this rich life vision of bringing friends and family down to Cabo for our 40th birthday. Wow. I like that. All right. All right. All those. I love it. I love those. Do you know how much money you will have? I run some calculators, but the question is,

We got here based on full-time work. I am no longer a full-time dentist and Ryan took a lower paying job. So how do we continue this path

with everything much lower in income. Well, I'll show you. I ran the math. All right. All right. So hold on. I'm struck that you have $4 million at such a young age. And I'm like, you know, you're going to have a lot of... You already have a lot of money, first of all. That's so obvious. But I go, you're going to have a lot more money. And your first response was, yeah, but we might not be working full time.

That's very interesting. I think you've already won the game of money. I think that the things you have done have brought you to a place that most people would love to be in. And I think it's probably time to turn the page and look at the next chapter of your life. And that is because at age 65, you will have $29 million. What do you think about that? Based on what income? Because we're not going to work. I'll show you.

I'll show you based on what income. In fact, I assume you basically contribute almost nothing to your investments. I assumed that you will contribute about $18,000 a year. So, you know, some small amount for the income that you're currently making. And at 7%, you'll have $29.4 million at age 65.

God, real quiet in here. I laugh about it a little bit because, yes, I did take a lower paying job. It still pays $300,000 a year. It's fine. We're going to be fine. We're going to be fine. Oh, my God. All right. Well, I love Seattle.

Okay, here's what we're going to do. You guys, you won the game of money. And that's really hard because you've been grinding so hard that it's actually become part of the identity, right? I think especially for you, Megan. I think it comes out in ways like with the bike. And I think that's what Ryan is saying. It's not that you don't recognize that a $500 bike for a little kid is a lot of money. That is a lot of money. Probably none of us got that kind of bike when we were kids. But there's also a point where you decide intentionally

What I was doing in the past, I'm not going to do it anymore, even though I could and I'm really good at it because it makes me play small and I have a much bigger life to play for. Okay, $29 million, essentially letting that money just grow. Let's do a little exercise because I want you to feel it and I want to experience what you're both thinking. We're going to do something called Rich Life Fill in the Blanks. Let's take a quick pause to support our sponsors.

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Welcome back. Let's keep going. Here I'm about to take Megan and Ryan through an exercise I call Rich Life Fill in the Blanks, which I wrote in my new book, Money for Couples. And it helps couples create a shared financial vision together. If you want to try it with your partner, you can pre-order the book at iwt.com slash money for couples.

Okay. And I'm going to ask you just lightning round to fill in the blanks to these questions. Just answer whatever comes to mind first. There's no right or wrong answer. But we'll go Megan, then Ryan on each of these questions. Okay. Megan, I wish we could spend more money on... Hotels. Whoa. Good answer. Okay. Ryan? Plane tickets. First house plane tickets would be nice. Okay. Great. My dream vacation is... Tahiti. Tahiti.

Vietnam. She's Vietnamese. We wanted to go to Vietnam before COVID. We never got to. That's my dream vacation. Oh, wow. Okay. Love that. If I could hire a coach for anything, it would be for? Dancing. Okay. I was just saying that I need a personal trainer because I'm getting a little chunky. Awesome. Okay. If I had $100 to improve my life, I would get? My hair done. Nice. Okay.

I don't know. Like, one of the things that we actually struggle with is like, I feel really content with our life and I like what we do. And so sometimes she's like, well, we need to do something with it. I'm like, I don't know what to do with it. She says that? Yeah. Really? Yeah. That surprises me. In this last month, I started saying we need to do something. Thank you for clarifying. I was about to have to dive in, but now it all makes sense again. Gotcha. Okay. So, but that's a real point. You're like, hey, I'm happy. Right.

Sure, I could get a trainer and we can take a few trips. Yes. Okay, but let's keep talking. $100 to improve your life. You're kind of stumped on that one. Yeah. Okay, fine. How about $1,000? Private chef. That's a good thought. Yeah, no. See, I like cooking, so I'd probably just buy kitchen gadgets with it instead. Okay. Wouldn't it be cool if we did blank together?

Honestly, this was a really exciting opportunity. We appreciate you bringing us on. But I like to do things like this that we don't get opportunities to. So I don't know what that would be, but finding ways that we can do cool things together that aren't always available to everybody. Okay.

A little bit more exclusive, maybe not off the beaten path. A little more VIP. Okay. I like it. And, you know, next week we're celebrating our five-year wedding anniversary and we're going to a very fancy spa. So that's something that I'm very excited about. Awesome. How do you, you both seem to light up when I'm asking these questions.

Which surprises me in a really positive way, because sometimes when we have these ghosts in our head about money, like, oh, my God, if I'm talking about wanting to do this, then that means I have to spend money on it. But that doesn't seem to be the case for either of you. You're both like totally playing ball here. What is that?

This is as of the last month. What would it have been before? So prior, I used to be frustrated because Ryan acts like money grows off of trees because for him it has. Essentially in the tech industry, he started in the right time. For me, it hasn't. And it's always been a grind for me. And so the conversations would always be contentious. He'd always say, we're so rich, we're so rich. And I didn't believe him because I didn't have access to his accounts.

Because I didn't feel I was rich. And since I've had this spreadsheet, I can actually...

say, yes, I agree. Wow. And now I have a third party validating that. Do you feel it? I feel a little lighter when I buy things full price and not have to wait for a sale. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we all joke about, you know, getting something on sale or whatever. But if, as you said, you've had to grind and you've had to work really hard for money, that becomes like...

You can't imagine life where you just go to the store, see something and buy it. It's impossible to imagine. My family, we used to spend five days buying a car. We would go there, negotiate, walk out, go back to next day. Like it was, there's no people walk in and buy a car. I'm like, that's insane. So I totally get it. But I also get that it's probably time to turn the page and actually buying a $70 bike helmet.

is probably the smallest of the changes you're going to make in the next one to two years. Would that be fair to say? Yes.

And I don't plan to go blow the money on a house in Seattle. So it's hard for me to think we have the house, we have all of our essentials. So really, I feel it's going to be the travel that's going to kind of step it up a game. Okay. Yeah. I do feel a little weird because I feel like, you know, Seattle, like, yes, we have lots of money. Lots of people in Seattle have lots of money. There are things like...

houses that are still really hard. It's a weird middle ground to be in for some things. Yeah. Well, middle ground compared to like a hundred millionaire, but I get it. Like I live in a very expensive area and you can, you can buy a house, you could buy a house, but you go, do we want to, are there other things? I get it. There's, these are decisions that are not really talked about publicly, but that's why I'm glad to be shining a light on them today.

Okay, so hearing your answers, the thing that I heard that both of you got excited about was I want to do... I wish we could spend more money on hotels and airplane rides. Okay, I love both of those things. So paint

Paint the picture for me. You have a very high income. I think your fixed costs are like 29% or something, right? Super low. It's like, whoa, what does it look like the next trip you take? Paint the picture for me. We've talked about two. And so over Christmas, we want to go somewhere warm. Where?

Probably Costa Rica. So we're thinking beach in Costa Rica and visit the rainforest and take our son out and let him see a new culture and try to get him. He's just old enough that we can maybe take him on some hikes and stuff. So I'm super excited about that. And then we talked about we want to go to Vietnam next April. What could you do to make one of those trips or both absolutely magical?

I think upping up the lodging. Okay. Where do you want to stay? I don't know. Just a little fancier than we've been. I mean, we went to Paris over spring break and we still spent $500 a night. So maybe we spend a little more. Yeah, I think it's...

It's less about how much. You can spend as much as you want. But I always start with, like, what's the vision? So for me, if I'm taking a trip and finally both of us are a little bit more inclined on the same page, we're like, hey, we don't... The first question we ask about these things in our life does not have to be about cost. Yeah.

then what do we want to get out of this trip? So sometimes when my wife and I are traveling, we're like, we feel like doing an adventure trip. We've done a lot of sitting on a beach type thing. We want to be active. So where, where in the world, what does that look like? What's it going to be? Then on the other times we're like, we want to relax. That means we're going to a resort. That's totally like away from everything.

And we're crafting an experience that's like putting together a meal. Like you like to cook, you're putting together a meal that's emotional. What's the first course? What's it going to feel like at the end when you surprise them with X, Y, Z? Notice I'm not talking about numbers because honestly, there's any hotel you choose, you can afford it. So can you give me that? What would it be like in Vietnam? We want to stay in the nice resort, but we want to eat local food. So that means you're going to have to take a taxi in and out. Yeah.

Yeah, beach. I've already been, so I don't really need to go see all the temples, but I know Ryan would like to, so we can do a few. But for me, it's just beach and culture. The struggle is with a three-and-a-half-year-old. We can't go to all the bougie resorts because a lot of those are adults only. And then flights, I don't even know if they let him in first class. Yeah.

So, there are some... With the kids, we can't just live super carefree. Her friend did tell us about a trip that they took recently. And her husband found an Airbnb in Bali. They came with a private chef and came with a driver. And they basically got a very private experience compared to another place they went where they were like, well, we stayed in a resort and it was fine. But like...

that house was amazing. I was like, that's great. I would like to learn more about that, please. I like it. So this is where I want everyone to understand this. Of course, it has to do with how much money you have, but we could craft a magical experience if you had much less money. Meaning does not necessarily have to come from net worth. My parents created meaning for us, and I'm sure all of our parents did, with way less money than you have. If it were me,

Just talking about how I would do it with a three and a half year old. I would definitely get great seats on the airplane. I would have car service from our house. It starts in our driveway, car service from the airport, somebody waiting for us when we got there. Um,

I mean, if you have the ability or there's somebody in your family you want to bring with you who can also help for a couple of days, I would bring them with no questions. Boom, they're coming along. They also should get time to go and check things out in Vietnam as well. If you like food, I would have a food tour set up. I would have lots of downtime, totally inexpensive, just hanging at the hotel or whatever. I would have a photographer because...

Is it your son? He's only going to be this age right now. I'd have a photographer with us for a half day. Boom. Capture all these amazing memories. So all these things, they're actually not that expensive individually, but it's really thinking about what can we do because we're not bound only by cost. What would it look like if we looked back on this five or 10 years later? We were like, that trip was actually easy, even though we had a little one with us.

It was, um, we, there was always water available for us, even though it was hot, like everything was taken care of and we got to explore these amazing places. That's what I'm looking for for you.

All right. Here's what I want you to do. I have to say, I love your vision. I do think that your big challenge with money will be now to think bigger. Personally, I think there's some clues that come up for me like the automating or un-automating. I mean, it's totally up to you. I'm glad that you're thinking about combining. I think that's good. I think that's definitely good. I do think automating and un-automating is a

is a big, it sets my antenna off because people who do things manually with their money, they tend to play small. Like I never hear someone who is checking every single credit card transaction who's then able to move and start talking about, this is what I want to do with my rich life. They're stuck in the weeds. And I would really encourage you

to move up because you should be operating like a $29 million couple. That would be my wish for you. My suggestion, pick the thing you're most excited about, which seems like the travel. Come up with a vision and then write me back in a week and send me what it is you're going to do. I would love to hear back from you. Okay? All right. Thank you both. It was great to meet you. Let's give them a round of applause. You guys are awesome. Thank you very much. All right, let's give it up.

Whoa. First of all, that was a lot of money. That was a lot of money. So that was a $29 million couple. It's like a turkey dinner. You just put it in. You need a little bit of time. You need a little bit of time for that money to turn into millions and millions. But guess what? Whether it's millions or whether you're starting out with your investing journey today, you're going to have to make a lot of money.

If you consistently invest and you give it time, you will end up with more than you ever thought. And that's the staggering part about things like compound interest. And that's also why when we talk about money with a partner, if you're on the same page, if you're rowing in the same direction, you can get there so much faster. Um,

that couple, what I like is that first of all, you just never hear from a couple who has that much money like ever, right? When was the last time you heard how a couple like that talks? And even though you may have a really high dual income, you don't necessarily automatically see eye to eye. And I kind of like that. It's the same, the same dynamics come out regardless of income level. Of

I noticed that nobody gets motivated by tiny little dreams. I'm trying to paint a vivid picture. What did you notice of the things that when I asked them, what would get you excited? What did you notice about their answers? What'd you notice?

Yeah. A lot of it was not super fancy, nor does it have to be. It was like, yeah, we'd like a nicer hotel. Kind of stumped at what you would spend an extra $100 on. Like for me, actually, this is what I want to do. I'm going to tell you what I would do to spend money to make my life better. And then I'm coming out to you because I want to hear what you would do. If you gave me $100, I would probably get an extra portable charger. And just like put it, I have two separate bags. I want to put one in each bag. That's it.

If you gave me more, I would probably... Well, I recently gave myself a milestone and I hit this financial milestone. And my gift to myself was from now on, any hotel I stay in, I can stay in any room at the hotel, like any level. And for me, I love hotels. That's one of my things.

For other people, they're like, that's stupid. Who cares? I don't care about the room. For me, that's incredibly meaningful to have the freedom to do that. It might be for you. If I go out to a restaurant, I can order any dish that I like. That if you're a foodie, that's your thing.

Amazing. I love the idea of a milestone, of having something to work towards. So I'm coming out to you now. Let's bring the lights up. I want to hear my question for you is, what would you use either $100 or $1,000 to make your life better? Who's got one? Just raise your hand. I'm coming to you. Yes, you are first. $100 or $1,000. Tell us your name.

Ratchet. And $100 would be a cleaning service, so I don't waste time every week. And $1,000 is going to be a phone that has battery that lasts more than four hours. Very nice. I like it. Thank you very much. Who else has got one? Yes, I'm coming to you. All right. $100 or $1,000 or both?

$100, I would have someone mow our lawn so my husband doesn't have to do it because I won't. And $1,000, I would hire someone to do all of our lawn care forever. Whoa. Okay. Very nice. Thank you very much. Yes.

A hundred would be new nails and a thousand would upgrade our flights to Japan. Nice. Okay. I like these answers. I'm coming back over here and then I'm coming up here if I see some hands. Yes. A hundred dollars, I'd give a good tip and a thousand dollars, I would go and change somebody else's life. I like that. Nice. New CrossFit shoes.

Very nice. I like it. Who else? Let's see. Yes. Hi, my name is Yuyi. $100, I would probably upgrade my seats on my flight as well tomorrow. And $1,000, I would contribute to my Aeros Tour fund for Sissy Taylor Swift. You know what? Does anyone have what they would do with $10,000 more? Whoa, hand went up really fast over here. Okay, let's hear it. Pay off student loans. Yes.

Okay. I appreciate that. Yes. Over here. $10,000. And if somebody wants to give even a crazier number, I'm all ears. I'd buy a car to rent on Turo. I like it. An investment. Okay. Anything else? Anything else for $10,000? Yes. I feel like an auctioneer.

fly private everywhere with our dog. Okay. All right. So what do you notice about these answers? First of all, I noticed they are super diverse. I noticed that they cluster around what? What are the patterns? Travel. What else? Experiences. Yes. What else? Yeah. Making life easier, which is one money dial convenience. Nothing wrong with that. That's my personal money dial. I love it.

I think when we start thinking at this level, whether we are solo or with a partner, we start to realize that, wow, there's a couple of ideas that would provide irrational happiness to us, right? Like for some of us, for me, it's the hotel thing. I just love it. I love it. For other people, it's, okay, yes. Well, that is like 99% of America. Their happiest moment ever is it's not getting married. It's not having kids. It's renovating. Yeah.

weird. So weird to me, but God bless. But what occurs to me after you kind of have a framework to look at these things through, after you learn that you can take an active role in your money, that you don't just have to wait passively. And after you learn how to connect, like we saw today with both couples.

What I have seen over and over again is couples or individuals start going, okay, I'm going to do that. Check. I'm going to do that. Check. Now what? And we realize that we have never thought deeply about what we want in our rich life. Like when you actually open up the possibility of, okay, we can order any appetizer we want because we...

You know, we save aggressively. We spend extravagantly on the things we love and you get all your automation in order and maybe you pay off your debt and you get there and you're like, okay, what now? What's the purpose of all this?

And you start checking a couple things off and you start to realize, oh my God, we need to get more creative because we didn't realize how far we can go with this. That is what I want to show you. I want to show you how vivid and how specific you can be with your rich life. And sometimes how you have to first have that first positive money conversation.

My wish for you tonight after watching these couples and after listening to how I talk about money, whether it's on my show or podcast, is for you to realize that you're an active driver in your rich life, that nobody's coming to save you. It's you and maybe your partner. It's one or two of you. And that if you get this right, you can have more fun than you ever thought possible.

So I have one favor to ask. After tonight, go home, think about what you would do with $100, $1,000, $10,000, whatever number is appropriate for you, and send me a note. You can send it to me on any platform. Just send me a note with the vivid, specific thing that you want to do. That's all I want to know. That will tell me that you took the lessons from today and you're starting to apply them to your rich life. Thank you for coming out tonight. I love you, Seattle.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a good night. Thank you.

I did hear back from Megan and Ryan recently, and here's what they shared. Thank you for speaking with us on stage in Seattle. Our biggest takeaways were that our net worth in 20 years will be way more than we'll know how to spend. And a lot of our fights over money were $3 questions. And we're not dreaming big enough. We can do more with our money and our rich life now rather than waiting for our wealth to continue to accumulate.

The day after being on stage, Megan took a page out of my book and went on a shopping spree at Nordstrom with a personal stylist. She didn't look at price tags. She purchased several outfits that made her feel great. These were outfits she wouldn't have considered if she'd focused on price. It was an amazing experience.

We booked trips to Costa Rica and Vietnam that we mentioned on stage. We also added a trip to Disneyland with Megan's family. We planned specific experiences like the hanging bridges and ATVs on the beach in Costa Rica, and we booked accommodations that will create amazing memories.

We've been able to talk about money with less frustrations and disagreements. We're trying to focus on the $30,000 questions instead of the $3 questions. Ryan spent some guilt-free money on an outrageous costume for a work event, and there were no fights over it. We've been investing for 10 years, and we're proud and surprised of the progress we've made so far. We're figuring out what our rich life means for us and our child. One current conversation is how to teach money skills to our toddler.

Another is how and when to responsibly gift him money as he grows up. Thank you again for speaking with us and encouraging us to dream bigger.

Unfortunately, I didn't get an update from Sophia and Charlie. I hope they've been able to work on having more positive money conversations, and I wish them the best. I want to thank both Sophia and Charlie and Megan and Ryan for having the courage to come up on stage in front of hundreds of people and speak so openly about money. We had a great time, and if you want to be in the audience for the next stop on my tour, tickets are on sale now at iwt.com slash booktour. ♪

They called it the happiest place on the high desert, home to a tight-knit group of 30-somethings who like to party. It starts as a Playboy Channel fantasy, but this is real life. Where passion leads to murder.

And a killer seeks God's help with the cover-up. I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and this is Deadly Mirage, an all-new podcast from Dateline. Listen to new episodes for free each week, wherever you get your podcasts.