Texas Rangers' Josh Jung: "The Moment You Overthink, You’ve Already Lost"
45:08 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Daily Stoic early and ad-free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. You know, it's possible to actually like what you see in the mirror, to not be ashamed, to not feel like you're not enough, to not dread what the morning is going to bring. And if your hairline is causing you to do that, maybe you should check out today's sponsor,

Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by

by over one and a half million people. You can see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. Building a hair growth routine is simple. You purchase online. There's no prescription required and automated deliveries and free shipping keep you on track. And plus with the Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20%. And plus you get a bunch of awesome bonuses, including a Headspace meditation membership. It's

Start your hair growth journey with Nutrafol. And for a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code DailyStoic. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for healthier hair. Nutrafol.com, N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code DailyStoic.

Look, when you have a small business, you don't have just someone who handles all your hiring for you, right? You got to do it yourself. And it takes time. It feels like it can cost a lot of money. And if you don't find the right person, if you don't get access to the right candidates, you're not even aware of how much your business is missing out on. Finding the right people for the Daily Stoic team is...

It has always been a struggle. And then we started using LinkedIn Jobs. That's where we found our video editor and our podcast editor and my assistant. Most of the people who work for Daily Stoic at this point we found through LinkedIn Jobs. Posting is super easy and they even have awesome new AI tools to help you write the job description and get your job in front of people with deep candidate insights. You can post your job for free or pay to promote it.

That's why 72% of small businesses say that using LinkedIn has helped them find the right quality candidates. Something like two and a half million small businesses are using LinkedIn for hiring today. Post your job for free at linkedin.com. That's linkedin.com. Post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of the most important people in the world,

to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome back to the Daily Stoic Podcast. There's something about sports where you're watching, you know, the human condition on hyperdrive, right? The aging process, the competition, what's in our control, what's not in our control, mastery, all this stuff. I love sports. So that brings us to today's guest. Josh,

Josh Jung, he's the third baseman for the Texas Rangers. In college, he played for the Red Raiders at Texas Tech. He was drafted in the first round in the 2019 draft, and he is the second player in Rangers history in 50-plus years to hit a home run in his first major league at Batlock Highlands.

how insane must that have been? What that must've felt like? I don't want to say it's all downhill from there, but like, I mean, in your wildest dreams, you go, Hey, I want to play professional baseball. I want to play college. Like just how far down the line it is to be like, yeah, the first time I step up to the plate, first time I do what is effectively the hardest thing to do in professional sports is

you hit a home run. Oh man, insane. But I think what philosophy is, what great sports psychologists teach you is how do you wipe that clean and then go to the next at that, right? I guess I have some experience in that. You know, I put out my first book when I was 25, debuted on the bestseller list. I've had some of those successes, but you know, it doesn't help you the next time as you're starting over. And in some ways,

It's harder the next time, right? Because you can get in your own head about it. And then also the people you're competing with, they're learning and growing and changing too. And it gets tougher to do it each time. This is why so few teams pull off back-to-back titles. It's why there's few back-to-back home runs or back-to-back anything hard in sports because it's hard to do it

unaided. And then it's hard to do when your competition is learning. But that is life. You've got to figure it out. You have to figure out how to always be growing and developing, getting better as you go. Because if you're not getting better, you are getting worse. Well, this week is opening week. So I wanted to bring you my interview with Josh.

And I think you're really going to like it. I think it was a great interview. He was awesome. Clearly a really thoughtful dude. When he was at the bookstore, he was like, I see you guys have a book club. Can I be a part of that? And I was like, yeah, dude, you can come to the book club anytime you want. Or you just read books and we could text about it. That's cool too. You can follow him on Instagram and Twitter, Josh6Jung, J-U-N-G. Anyways, let's get after it.

So last time I saw you, you left with like 20 books. Have you read them all yet? Oh, no. I'm a slow reader. I'm in the middle of Enter Game of Tennis right now. What do you think? It's so true. And like dissecting my game and some of the thoughts I've had this offseason about slowing down everything, especially self-talk. Yeah. Trying to be positive and not self-constructive, especially like pitch to pitch when I'm hitting. Because it's like...

You're doing something that's really hard. Yes. And the pitcher can throw 87 different pitches at different velocities. And when you swing and miss, it's not the end of the world. Right. But it's so easy to get so frustrated.

with that. Well, some people think that's the hardest thing in sports, that hitting a baseball is the hardest act, like single act in any sports. Like in golf, I mean, obviously the different shots are hard, but the ball is sitting there. In basketball, hitting a three-point shot is hard. Under pressure, it's hard. But you're not defying physics. I think it's like foresight.

400 milliseconds or something from like the release of a ball to when you have... Like it's not...

actually possible to do that consciously. Yeah. At some level you are acting on pure instinct and training. You're not like, this is a really good pitch. I'm going to do this swing here because you don't literally, you can't do that. You don't have time. It's kind of like the zone. I think I'm a chapter like five, but it's like the zone you get into where it's like that balance. Yeah. But like you're able to just go.

and focus on the external, which is the ball. But as soon as you think, oh, my back elbow needs to do this, or I need to do this with my front leg, it's like you lose. You don't have time. Don't have time. Yeah. And you're...

By thinking of that, you're actually taking... It's like you're taking power away from the wheels that are supposed to be gripping. So that must be strange. I mean, when you see the pitcher start to go into a windup, what are you thinking? I mean, I try to have little...

little phrases for myself when I step into the box. Yeah. And then when he moves, I try to turn it off. Yeah. I try to. Sometimes it's hard. Does the pitch clock make it easier? Oh, it's worse. It's worse? I guess I would have guessed that it would make it easier because there's less time to think and you can't step out. It puts a...

This is it. You've got to do it in here. Yeah, for me, I really focus on breathing. And the more time I have, the more I can control my breath and kind of tune it out. Where the pitch clocker, I call it the shot clock. It's just inconsistent where you play.

And so you'll look up and you have to be in the box with your eyes on the pitcher at nine seconds. And you'll look up and it's like 11. And you're like, oh, gosh, get in. Hurry. So your whole playing career up until I mean, when did that when did the clock start? And when did you start? Like that would have been in 22 in the minor leagues. OK. And then in 23 in the big leagues. Right. So my whole life, it was no. You had unlimited time and then suddenly you don't have unlimited time. Right. Right.

And they just jumped in. And I don't know how they came up with 15 and 19 seconds for us. And now I think it's 15, 18.

No idea how they came up with those numbers, but... Well, they probably just said, hey, if we do this, it'll make the game this long. And if we do this, it'll make the game on average this long. And they're just trying to fit the thing into a tighter window. Yeah. I mean, I understand why they did it, right? Like the attention span's not as long as it used to be. And the shorter the game, like... I don't know if blue sails are going to go down that much because it's a 30 to 40 minute difference. Like, I don't think... It's also, it's like...

If you're saying that stepping out and having unlimited time makes you better at what you do, well, of course, every person is going to take the maximum amount of time to do the thing. And so everyone is pursuing their individual optimization that's coming at the expense of the overall optimization of the experience. Yeah.

But like, yeah, I just wondered if it's like, no, because sometimes there's some things where it's like, look, you got 10 seconds to choose. You'll just choose. Yeah, I do that with my kids sometimes. I'm like, look, we can walk through this gift shop for two minutes. You pick something, you can have it. But we're not doing this.

45 minute thing, you know? Yeah, definitely. And they're actually, they're actually happier because they didn't torture themselves for 45 minutes, like weighing every option 500 times. I mean, yeah, that does make sense. Especially when you're going well, you're like, oh, get me back in the box. Oh, when you're going bad, that's when you're like, okay, timeout. Cause you get one timeout.

And like, for me, I like to pick up the dirt and throw it. That's kind of like my physical release. You touch it. Yeah. I like pick up some dirt and throw it. It's like my physical release to where it's like, okay, it's out of my head. How did you get that habit?

Trials, tribulations. I work with a guy named Brian Kane. He's my middle performance coach. And I've done all kinds of things. But with the pitch clock, I've had to learn and adjust and adapt. And I actually saw Aaron Judge do it when we played against him, I think in 22, before he broke the AL record. And I was like, oh, I like that. That's cool. Oh, he does that? Yeah. Interesting. He'll pick up dirt when he's struggling or two in his head and throw it. And I was like, ooh, I kind of like that.

And that was just something... Someone sent me this thing once. It's something these monks use. It's like an incense. It's like a little bottle. And you put this powder in your hand. And you go like this. And then...

It's kind of like the LeBron James thing. But you're sniffing this kind of incense powder and it's kind of like a ritual of sort of like clean, a scent, and then it's gone. And then you do whatever you're supposed to do. I think they would do it like before prayers or something. But there's something about those kind of little rituals that sort of start a process or end a process that can be kind of mentally clarifying. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's just for me, it's just been identifying what those are going to be and sticking to them. But you have less time. But you have less time. Yeah. So I can only do that once in a while, maybe. Yeah. Because I try to call time out because you only get one time out.

Per at bat? Per at bat. Okay. Yeah. There's a fine line between ritual and OCD, right? Definitely. And so I do imagine if you're like, well, this one works. Let me add another one. All of a sudden you're like, you got 30 rituals that you do before you go do the thing. And then the thing that was designed to get you out of your head is now making you very, very in your own head. Right. You're like, if I don't do this, I'm not going to perform. Yes. And it's like, no. And that's where...

I wonder if it was you talking about it. It's like, we can't go into a game based on feelings.

You can't do anything based on feelings because no matter what you do that day, you could feel great and you could feel terrible. Yeah. But at the end of the day, you got to go do what you do. Yes. And just because you feel great does not mean positive success. And just because you feel terrible doesn't mean terrible success. Some of the best games I've ever played, it was like my worst batting practice or worst pregame routines. And it's like somehow that turns my brain off and it's like, well, no expectations today. And you just go succeed.

And also though, like the rituals can become, can make you very fragile or the totems or whatever. You're like, I wear this necklace. I wear, like, I have these rings that I wear. I have this ring that it's like from ancient Rome. So it's like, you know, 2000 years old. It was like a ring that a person wore and it's got like a little sort of

sort of Roman insignia on it. And I usually wear it when I do a talk. And like I did a talk here on Wednesday or something in Austin. And it's usually, I keep it in like my medicine bag 'cause I do all my talks on the road. And so it was here, like since it was here, I didn't have my medicine bag, right? Because it's like in my suitcase.

And it wasn't until I was like driving to the place that I was like, oh shit, I don't have like the thing that's part... Because I like, I'll spin it or whatever. I just... And I was like, I tried to say to myself, this is actually good because obviously the ring doesn't do anything. It's a silly superstition. And by not doing it and getting practice not doing it, that's a resilience that I need anyway, because...

the more you get in your head like, hey, I need to wear these lucky socks. Or if I don't like, you know, touch the dirt or, you know, tap home plate three times, you

I won't be able to do what I do. And so the thing that was supposed to get you more in a good headspace actually becomes this kind of fragility where if you don't do it, you're a mess. Right. Like I, through college was known for like, I would stare at a focal point on my bat and I would repeat the same phrase to myself with the pitch clock. I can't do that. But I've tried to develop to where like, I still have like two or three things I'll tell myself.

But when you look up in the pitch clocks at 9:00 or whatever and you got to jump in and you don't do that That's where I'm still trying to learn like it's okay Yeah, and that's where the journey this offseason has been kind of revitalizing for me is because it's like it doesn't really matter now at all but you have to separate from that and not give it weight and that's where the inner game attendance like don't be judgmental about events or whatever it's like who cares and

Well, yeah. And the thing I took from that book is that, and I think about it, actually, I was just in here with Matthew McConaughey, we were talking about self-consciousness is the enemy. Anytime you are thinking about what you are doing, you are spending less time doing the thing. Like anytime you're thinking about, hey, if...

you know, I'm not standing how I normally stand, you know, that's a problem. Anytime you're thinking like, hey, if I, you know, if I whiff this pitch, people are going to laugh at me. Or if I don't get this in a time, these people are going to be mad at me or they're going to be surprised. But anytime you're thinking about what other people are going to be thinking about what you're doing, that's a problem too. You want to be in it as much as possible, thinking as little as possible, just, uh,

as connected and present as you can be. That's like a funny thing, like even doing these, you make notes and

But the more you're looking at the notes, probably the worse it's going. And I think there's an Eisenhower line where he says like, plans are worthless, but planning is everything. You want to have trained it a million times. You want to know all the mechanics and then you want to immediately like throw it all out and just be doing the thing. Right. Yeah. And that's the journey for me right now too, is like learning to separate. Yeah. Separate. And I've always been one of those guys that's like,

the ego of me was like i'm gonna be the first one of the field yeah i'm gonna be the last one to leave yeah but it's like that's actually a detriment because i'm in the thing yes way too long yeah and there's no separation between josh and the baseball player it's like he's always the baseball player

Therapy is great. It's important. It can make your life a lot better. So why don't more people do it? Why don't we do it as often as we should? It's because a lot of therapists are out of network. It takes time to drive across town. It's uncomfortable. So we make excuses nonstop.

Thank you.

You sign up online, you get paired with a licensed provider in less than 48 hours most times, and you can switch providers at no extra cost. And they've got specialists in basically every niche or problem or personality type you could imagine. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get 80 bucks off your first month with Talkspace. When you go to Talkspace.com slash stoic and enter promo code SPACE80.

To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com slash DOIC and enter promo code SPACE80 to get 80 bucks off your first month and show your support for the show. That's Talkspace.com slash DOIC promo code SPACE80.

I just got off a long flight. And one of the things that helps when you're flying is not getting dehydrated. That helps with the jet lag and all of that. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. I've been a fan of Liquid IV for a long time because it helps rehydrate you quickly. They've got great flavors.

You can find all their hydration multiplier flavors on their website. They have acai berry and lemon lime and pina colada. Plus, they've got a line of sugar-free flavors like raspberry lemonade, white peach, and rainbow sherbet. Break the mold and own your ritual. Just one stick in 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. And it's powered by LIV Hydroscience for an optimized ratio of electrolytes, acetaminophen,

essential vitamins, and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Experience extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV and get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use the promo code dailystoic at checkout. That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code dailystoic at liquidiv.com.

And if you're like, hey, I work out a lot or I am doing this thing until it needs to be done, that's a good place. If you're like, no, no, no, I have to wait for this guy to leave so then I can leave after him. Now, like form is leading function rather than the other way around. Like you're you're acting the part rather than like doing the part.

apart. You're trying to be seen as the thing. Like I've said this before, I bet like, you know, like coaches are notorious for like leave work in these insane hours. I bet if all the, if there was like a union negotiation and coaches like in college sports, like you can only, you only have this many workouts, whatever. If, if coaches were enforced rules like that,

no fan would notice in a deterioration. It's just a persona of the coach who's, you know, whatever their families would notice because they'd actually be around. But I don't think, I don't think they would suddenly like not be coaching as well. It's mostly an illusion. Yeah. Because I just like reflecting on the past season, I was injured a bunch, so I missed a lot of time, but for a seven o'clock game at home,

I'd get to the field at 1130. Yeah. I'd do my route to my hitting routine at like 130. It's like, bro, you still got six and a half hours. You've been on for hours on the whole day. Yeah. Which, and I do think the younger you are, you just have enough energy to just do that.

But as you get older and you get more and more concentrated and potent in what you do, I do think you get in a place of sort of like conservation of energy. Like this talk I did on Wednesday, actually, it was funny. Like they were like, get here at this time to go on. And usually this is like one of the few areas I'm deliberately not punctual. Like I'm a pretty punctual person.

But they're always like, get here at 3.30 because you're going on at 4.30 or whatever. And then you actually go on at 4.45. And then you have to kind of sit around and entertain these people backstage. It's not the trajectory I want to be on emotionally and energy-wise. So I have to consciously be late, even though I want to be on time. But anyways...

Like, this was an unusual one. There was like a band playing and then there was like an award ceremony. It was all this stuff beforehand. And then like, I let them put the mic on too early and then I had to go to the bathroom again. It was just like, I could just feel that like the clock had started, but my performance wasn't, was, you want like the clock starting and your performance to be relatively aligned. Yeah.

But I can imagine with your like anxiety and your desire to like be seen as the good athlete, what you're doing is hitting start on the clock, like eight hours before you go in front of the crowd and do the thing. Right.

And that's a lot to ask of your mental acuity to say nothing of your physical acuity. Right. Was that Churchill that said conservation of energy? Yeah, his quote was, never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lay down. Yeah.

I actually just read that this morning when I was kind of preparing a little bit for this. But yeah, it's like if I get to the field three hours later, it's not like I'm going to be less intentional or have less time to get my stuff in. But when I am there that early, it does create that sense of like, okay, what are you here for? Are you here for people to see you?

Do your routine early? Are you here for people to see you watching film for an hour? Like, are you actually getting better? Are you just wasting time and creating more anxiety within yourself? Now the game starts and you're like, oh gosh, I'm kind of tired because I've been on all day. Well, and this is,

knowing whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, like the best definition I heard of this is like an introvert loses energy around people and extrovert gains energy around people. So if you're someone who finds social situations more draining than not, if you have to go do an extroverted thing, which is like a performance athletic or otherwise, then knowing like, hey, I got to protect this thing. So I'm spending the energy

Where I'm paid to spend the energy, not on the, not on the other shit. Right. It's like you and McConaughey were talking about, I think in, in his actor sense, like being unimpressive or like writing, he was talking about his writing being unimpressive. It's like, how do I show up on a daily basis and try to be unimpressive to those around me? Because for so long, it's been ingrained in my head that like you have to do X, Y, and Z so people can see it. And that's, what's going to make you a good player.

Yeah. Some football player told me once that he loves the videos that players start posting in the off season of their like impressive beach workouts or whatever. And he's like, those are the guys I'm not worried about because the rest of us have been working out all season. Right.

All off season, you're just suddenly posting you running with a parachute at the beach or whatever. That's like performative training and not actual training. But yeah, like how are you doing the thing as opposed to looking like you're doing the thing? And then I think some of us, it's like, you know, we hear, oh, so-and-so did this. So like, I'll just make that my thing. And maybe that's not. And it's not who you are. Yeah. So what do you say? Be uniquely yourself? Mm.

Is that what McConaughey said? Yeah. So it's like how, first off, define who you want to be, right? Like if my career, like we talked about last time we talked, Memento Mori, like if my career ended, how do I want to be defined? Yeah. Okay. I'll just live that way every day. Yeah. Don't worry about all the other nonsense. Like just live that like today. Can't worry about yesterday. Can't worry about tomorrow. Just do it today. And then as you stack those days, like you'll eventually be exactly what you want.

Yeah, yeah. And there, I mean, there are certain things that play better and look better, like being the first one there, the last one to leave. But if that's not actually what is...

asking yourself, is this moving the needle for me? Is this actually making a positive difference or is it affect? And then having the discipline to shut down some of that discipline is like a weird kind of paradoxical thing. But you have to go like, no, no, I'm going to stay home and do this or I'm going to rest or I'm going to recover. I'm not just going to subject myself to sort of

these other obligations so I can do the thing that I... There's kind of an arrogance too, almost in thinking like, oh, I have an unlimited amount of resources to draw on here. Because you don't. You have a finite amount. And ideally, you want to spend it where it makes the most difference. Yeah. And that's where you don't need to be there to myself. You don't need to be there 12 hours today. Like you don't. You really don't. You got to perform at seven o'clock. So whatever you need to do beforehand...

Starting at 1130, I find myself just wasting so much time. And that's the buildup. And so once you get to the game, you've worked it up so much that it's kind of life and death. When it's like, even if I go 0-4 with 4Ks tonight, I have tomorrow. It's okay.

But like, like we talked about, I always thought it was like my edge to be there for so long, but it's really like looking back on it, it becomes a detriment. Does it work sometimes? Absolutely. Yeah. But more than not, baseball is a game of failure. It's not going to work. So it's like, why do you continuously do something that,

Especially reflecting on it. Why do you continuously do something when you could find a new hobby that just like potentially Clears your mind throughout the morning and then when you get to the field, it's like okay now I flip the switch It's not wake up and playing pool at your house or anything reading or doing anything I remember I listen this one radio host once I was a kid and he was he did a two-hour radio show like four days a week and he was like

They asked me to get here like 30 minutes before the show each day. And he's like,

I told him if I have to get here 30 minutes before the show every day, that's like doing an extra hour of the show one day a week that, you know, he's like, I'll get here five minutes before the show starts. And like, it is funny because you're arguing over such a small amount of time, but, but it's like, if what you do is hard and requires all of you knowing what that is, and then kind of, I think the larger lesson, if you're not, what is the main thing that you're paid to do?

And then basically everything else is superfluous. If it helps you do that thing better, you should do it. And if it doesn't, you have to have the discipline to kind of say no to that because you got to protect the thing because it's really hard. Yeah. And that's where it's, I know it's going to be a challenge for me because once spring, like it's great to think about this right now, but as soon as spring training starts, it's like,

Am I getting up at 5:30 to get there at 6:00? Like, what am I gonna be doing? But that is where the discipline's gonna have to come in. And that's where we were talking about the coffee shop. That's become something that I love to do because it gets me out of the house and it gets me into this headspace where it's like, okay, I can just tune the world out and just kind of throw myself into reading or writing or something.

And that 30 minutes, that hour that I spend there, it's like, oh, that was so beautiful. And it was for me. It wasn't for anything else. The problem for me is it's like when I'm with my family, like I still mentally have to leave. Right. So like I know, hey, if I get there at the time they say I'm supposed to get here or if I just even get there when I want to get there, it won't lead to like sort of performance. But I can't.

just be regular here. So I have to like leave. I have to find some transition process that allows me to kill time, but just not in the green room of the thing or whatever. Getting into the zone, everyone has a weird way of doing it. There's no normal ways to get into the zone. You kind of like ease yourself.

into it. It's like a, it's like a thing you're kind of slipping into like a cold pool or something. Right. Yeah. I mean, you see it in a locker room. There's 10 guys going to start that night and all 10 of them have a different way to be ready to perform at seven o'clock. Yeah. They're all about to do the same thing literally at the same time, but they have to, they have to work their way into it differently. They all prepare differently.

And that's what is so unique about a locker room. And I'm sure it's unique in all sports is how guys do it. Yeah. And once failure sets in, cause that's inevitable. Sure. How do they change or are they the same? Yeah. And that's where you'll see the veterans, like some of the vets we have,

They're very steady. Yeah. And that leads to, you know, more steady performance. But guys like me that are younger, we start failing and we're like, oh, got to change this, this, this, this, this. That, I guess, the changing of the routine kind of can throw off performance too. Like we were talking about with, you know, if I don't do X, Y, and Z, I'm not going to perform. Yeah. It's like releasing that, releasing those thoughts. Yeah.

Is something that I've been working on forever, but it's never been more clear to me than right now that like that stuff doesn't matter. Feelings don't matter. Just go play the game. Yeah. And with reading the book, it's like.

Don't give any weight to what you're doing. Like I go to another cage to do my routine. It's not like every day I have to hit 50 balls exactly like this. It's like, no, just go in there and find the flow and then you're good to go regardless of what the result was. Right. And then go play. Same with dealing with failure in the game because it's going to happen. It's really hard.

But fouling a pitch off that you should hit or striking out three or four times, like it doesn't matter. What's funny, there's a line from Epictetus where he's saying that we don't know exactly what game he's referring to, but he says that like a great philosopher is like a great ball player in that they don't label throws good or bad. They just catch it automatically.

or throw it, you know? And that sort of tendency to want to put things in categories or to have an opinion about it, to me, that's the distinction between like being in or out of the zone or the moment. When you're in it, you're just like, oh, I'm running to get this ball and then I'm throwing it back. And then what are they going to do? That's the back and forth of it. But when you're like

Oh, I'm sucking today. Or, oh, they're sucking today. Or, oh, like in golf, the second you go like, I'm really playing well today. That's like death. It's over. When I'm writing, all's good. When I'm like, is this a productive day, unproductive day? This is gold. Am I going to use this?

None of that. First off, that just takes mental energy. And so every thought that you have towards that is just not more words that you're writing. But it also means you're not fully immersed in the thing. You have one foot in and one foot out.

Right. Yeah. And I mean, that's what taken from the end game of tennis so far. It was talking about like the tennis player kept missing their backhand and they're like telling themselves your backhand sucks today or whatever. And it's like, that takes you out. Like you're out of the performance. Yeah. But if you just play, you don't even think about it. You're probably hitting shots and you're not like, Ooh, I'm gonna hit this down the line. It's like, you just do it. I have a super, like, cause I run and like when I,

can like feel something in my shoe. I'm like, I'm going to get a blister. I feel like I'm willing it into existence by thinking about it. But if I wasn't thinking about it, it's probably not true. It would probably happen either way. But there's some part of me where I think that by focusing on it, I know it's going to be a problem. And if I could...

forget that that's happening, it would be fine. It's like, like last night I was like reading some article about like flu cases or whatever. And I was like, the next thing I know, I'm like, do I feel, you know, like, because I thought about the thing. Now you have an awareness. It's like when you feel a bug crawling on you, then you feel them everywhere. Right. You want to be just how quick you can get at forgetting things.

is like a magical part of performance and that's what's so crazy about hitting in general you'll have somebody watching you right let's say they're struggling you're performing well yeah they'll come up to you and go hey what are you doing with your front shoulder there yeah next thing you know that's all you can think about and you have no idea what that thing's doing but now you have this awareness yeah and it's taking you out of the game and in the in the book too it was like

If the other person's playing really well, walk by them and ask them, like, what's working on your backhand today? And then they'll tell you like, oh, I'm hitting it out front. Next thing you know, they're like overconscious and they're like, oh gosh, now they can't hit it. But it's like drawing awareness to something that you necessarily don't think about. It doesn't matter. But now you have that awareness and you're like, oh no, here we go. What does it feel like to connect with a pitch? When everything goes perfect, you kind of don't even feel it.

Truly, like when it's perfect, perfect, right on the barrel, it just kind of goes. But that's kind of like the flow of it all. There's definitely days where you try to manhandle it. And that's where you end up breaking your bat. You end up when you try to hit it really hard. Yeah. When you're trying to do way too much with it.

especially me for years, like exit velocity is like a big stat. So I've always like chased, like hitting the ball harder, but. Is that something you can consciously. No. Influence? No, not at all. And honestly, you can't really change it. It's kind of something like you either have it or you don't. Right.

And yeah, I've chased it forever. And so you start trying to swing harder or you start trying to manipulate ball flight, meaning like I'm going to pull this ball in the air to left field. You can control that to some extent, but for the most part, if the pitch isn't perfect, you're not going to be able to do what you're trying to do. So for me coming out of college, I did need to make some swing adjustments. So like having a little mental awareness was good.

But now I've created an over-awareness to that. I've like overdone it to where I have to go back and get back to the fundamentals that got me here in the first place because I've been trying to do something so much and trying so hard to do. And...

Yeah. Now I just lost complete thought of the question, but. No, like the image I have in my mind that I'm like going for when I'm writing or working on a thing is for some reason, and I haven't played baseball since I was like 10, is like a batter connecting with the ball and that like crack and that sound and that just sort of like

I don't know. I don't know why it is, but that's the image I have in my mind. And that's what I sort of think about. And it's not what I'm aiming for because it's not really something you're aiming for, but that's kind of this, I don't think about like, how do I make something that really does well or like that really helps people or whatever. I just think like, all I'm trying to do is connect with the ball. I like that sound. That's just kind of the mental image I have for like what a successful day is, is that connection. Yeah.

So I've always wondered what it actually feels like. I mean, I've been a batting agent and stuff. I know what it feels like, but at some level, doing it in a major league ballpark against someone who's throwing a pitch at you that, again, at a physics level, you shouldn't be able to hit. Like someone is trying as hard as they can to

at a peak level of human performance to not make it possible for you to do what you are trying to do. And then you have done it. I think that's like the magic that I'm imagining. Yeah. I mean, especially when you hit a homer or something. Yeah. And everyone talks about how like they black out for me.

when stuff like that happens, it's almost like there's a split second where I don't hear anything and everything really slows down. And I'm assuming that's the zone that everybody talks about. It's just like, it's a split second thing. It's not like this thing that

lasts for a very long time. But I know when that happens, I'm like, oh, that was perfect. But I don't know how to do it all the time. I don't know if anyone really does. I mean, the best who ever did it could only do it like 40% of the time for one season. Right. Yeah. Ted Williams, 407. Yeah. But it's like, how do you find that? And is the mental clarity really diving into self too? Yeah.

the doer, does that create it more often? And it's not necessarily going to produce more results, right? Like I could still hit the best ball ever and they could catch it. Yeah. And they could do whatever. But that's part of why I like the metaphor, which is like all you can do is get under the ball and hit it as far and as hard as you're able to do. And then you can run, which you're supposed to do, but no other part of the process is...

in your control. Like what they are doing and how they're going to respond to it is no longer up to you. And so there's something just about like, okay, so the purity is you got to connect. And then sometimes it's going over the back wall. Sometimes it's

going to shock you how short it ends up. Sometimes it veers right over and into fouls. Sometimes they pull it off the back wall or they steal one from you. Sometimes you get thrown out at second because you get greedy. There's all the different things that could happen, but the purity of the moment that you're trying to go for as a creator or maybe as an athlete is just the last part of it that's up to you.

Terry Gross is one of the great living interviewers. I've been listening to it forever. I don't know when I started, but I know it was long enough ago that I've forgotten that's how long Fresh Air with Terry Gross has been in my life. Fresh Air with Terry Gross is an award-winning podcast. It's obviously a show on NPR you can also tune into.

But Terry Gross and co-host Tanya Mosley, an essential listen for anyone. The show dives into minds of influential figures discussing topics from politics, music, fashion, culture, and more. They've interviewed everyone from Selena Gomez, Jeremy Strong, Supreme Court Justice, Katonji Brown Jackson, Nikki Glaser, Billie Eilish, and President Trump.

presidents, heads of state, so many other interesting people. Every day when you tune in to Fresh Air from NPR, you can expect the latest and greatest interviews from some of society's most influential figures. Fresh Air has an enormous archive, and with Fresh Air Plus, you can get curated lists of interviews that actually end up touching on the issues of today. Fresh Air is a daily podcast you can't miss. Tune in to Fresh Air from NPR to hear some of the most insightful interviews anywhere, wherever you get your podcasts.

One of the most popular things we put in the fridge downstairs at the Painted Porch, the headquarters here of Daily Stoic, are meals from Factor. They come in and then by the time I go down to grab one, most of them are gone. Our employees come in a couple days a week and they usually try to grab one of the Factor meals instead of eating at a restaurant here in Bastrop.

Factor Meals arrive fresh and fully prepared, perfect for any active or busy lifestyle, perfect at the office, perfect at home. They've got 40 options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week, and it's easy to pick meals tailored to your goals. My wife has a bunch of different allergies, and even she can eat well on Factor. If you want to eat smart with Factor, get started at factormeals.com slash factorpodcast and use the code FactorPodcast to

To get 50% off your first box plus free shipping, that's code FACTORPODCAST at FactorMeals.com slash FACTORPODCAST. To get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box.

And as you were talking there, it was like something we talked about a minute ago, like the preparation. I could prepare all day for this pitcher and how I believe he's going to attack me. But as soon as I step in that box, I have to throw it out the window because they're 99% of the time, they're not going to attack me that way. Like I could, you know, every once in a while you'll get a gut feeling. You're like, oh, he's going to throw this pitch. But the odds of you being correct is...

I want to say zero. Statistically, you're not going to be able to guess. Right. Yeah.

And be successful. Like you're going to guess every once in a while and get it right. But to be consistently successful, you have to throw it out the window. So it's like, that's a whole nother thing. It's like prepare, but like we talked about, throw it out. And I think maybe I'm attracted to the elusiveness of it, right? Like a great hitter, you know, like hitting 200 is pretty decent, right? So somewhere between 20 and 40%, that's like the band that like the best who do it are even hoping for.

And understanding that, okay, so most of what I make, most of what I write, most of what I record isn't going to connect at all. Like I'm just going to whiff, you know? And then a couple of times you're going to connect, but it's going to be, you know, like you're going to get your singles, then your doubles. And then sometimes...

You connect exactly when all the other factors line up and that's where you get those like amazing results. But that's elusive even with the elusive factors

Parts. Yeah, and now there's so many statistics you literally feel like a walking statistic There's so many things statistics in baseball, but like we talked about earlier. It's like you can do everything right? Literally every single thing right? Yeah, and they catch it. Yeah, and it's like okay. How do I view that? Yeah, I get frustrated and do I say oh, it's a negative moment It's like you literally did everything right? Yeah, but you got out and then you could do legitimately everything wrong I remember I had a pinch hit at bat

Wasn't ready for it. Wasn't prepared. I go up there. I don't even think I had my wrist tape on. Like I was just like completely out of it. And I ended up getting hit. By being out of it, is that you were actually in it because you didn't get to do your stuff? Right. Yeah. But then I did like my swing was terrible. I was swinging at pitches that I had no business swinging at. And the result ended up being good for the club. Yeah. And it was like, huh.

What just happened? I literally did everything wrong and I hit a single and the guy scored. Right. And then all the days I prepare to be ready, uh,

You know you struggle and it's yeah golly this game sucks sometimes but that's where I'm trying to learn and develop routines Especially early in the day to go to the coffee shop to go read to do something for myself Yeah, because the amount of intentionality I'm gonna have isn't gonna change right but I can delay flipping that switch an hour longer two hours longer and

And now I'm not wasting time sitting in my locker, sitting in the film room, twiddling my thumbs, scrolling social media or whatever. It's like I'm actually intentional with that little time and then switch. What's weird to me about baseball, unlike the other sports that I've sort of gotten to go behind the scenes on, it's one of the only ones where you practice where you perform. Almost all the other sports, the facility is in like the boonies somewhere. And then the arena is where you go to work.

So it must be a little weird. I could actually see on some level getting there earlier and work. Cause you're like, this is my home also like here, this place, this is where I write every day. So like, I'm very comfortable here and I can feel like when I'm stressed or if I feel like I'm behind or I feel like I got something, I'm like, I'm going to go just do my, I'm going to go into the rhythm, which is different than, you know, like when I have to go perform, that's a different, that's a, an unfamiliar place or that's like, that's the showtime place. Right.

But yeah, baseball, like they just have the one, the one place. And it's not super nice usually. Like it's like these, cause you're in the bowels of a stadium as opposed to a practice facility. So it's usually like this, like sort of cinder block, like bunker thing, as opposed to a

Like, I remember when I spoke to the Seahawks, you're like, oh, like the guy who owned Microsoft built this. Not only does it have like the best tech, but he was like, well, what do my, what is like a great office feel like? I'm going to make this is their office. I'm going to make them their thing. I've never felt that in a baseball stadium. No baseball. And our stadium is unbelievable. It's almost like a cathedral. Yeah. It was open to 2020, but.

it's beautiful. But yeah, we, the games at seven, we practice at three o'clock. Yeah. And that's our like practice. So we don't actually really practice. It's like a, a gear up for the game, early batting practice, ground balls, whatever. But you don't actually like ever practice to where like football, you have all week to prepare basketball. You have like a day in between to go shoot around at the stadium. You're going to play at.

For us, it's like, show up and play today. But that's where developing those routines is so vital because you don't need to go out and take BP every day. Maybe once, twice a week, maybe. If you feel off and you just need to get the backdrop of the stadium, go do it. But it's not something you need to...

divulgent every day, but kind of what you were talking about being comfortable. I was like, yeah, that's where I was comfortable. So I literally wake up and as soon as I woke up, I'm in the car going to the field. Right. But at the same time, that did create some anxiety of leading up to the performance. Now I was injured too. So I was doing a bunch, trying to get in to do my rehab before all the other guys got in and trying to be time conscious, especially when I started playing again, because I had to do X, Y, Z of things to try to be ready to play. But yeah, it's like,

Get comfortable in these other routines for me and then flip the switch on two hours later Because it's not that big of a deal 11:30 to 1:30 is not a big deal. Yeah to get there and be prepared but I've done something for myself and

I've kind of released the thoughts. And one thing I took away from the New Year, New You challenge was before bed every night, writing down all this stuff that like frustrated me or made me mad or just thoughts I can't get rid of and burning them. Yeah. Like that physical release has been amazing for me. Yeah. How do you wipe this slate clean? Because you think about what you're accumulating in the course of a day.

And then you think about what you're accumulating in the course of a week, in the course of a year, it starts to be a lot that you're carrying. It's like you're younger than me, but there used to be this thing you would do on a computer called a defrag. And it was like this thing you would run and it would just like, I don't know exactly how it worked. But the point is your computer would just start to be slow after a while.

And you would run this program and it would like combine things or get rid of things that it would like partially deleted. It would overwrite stuff. And then suddenly your computer would be working better. And then what I took from that is like, oh, there's just shit running in the background or there's things that I've accumulated I'm wearing. It'd be like, if you never took today's clothes off, you just put on new clothes every day, suddenly, like very soon you'd have like this much clothes on. Right. And so how do you kind of,

start fresh and get rid of stuff. And the faster you can do that, the better. And then probably even like in the course of a game, like what is a good game? You might get up there four times, four to five times max. So, but by the fifth time you have four other ones in your head, just from that day, let alone, you know, you played five games in a row. That's a lot.

To be, it's definitely a lot. And that's what they say in baseball is being able to turn the page quick. Yeah. But for me, I was always surprised it suppressed all of it. And just like, oh, I'll deal with it later. It's still later. Never comes. You're 500 at bats into the season. And you're like, oh gosh, I've never dealt with this. But that's where that was very eyeopening to me because I was like, oh, release it.

And, you know, I pray about it too. And I go through it and I release it. But it's like, oh, this is actually really good to actually like deal with it and let it go. And now I'm going to bed with a clean conscious. I'm not going to bed and your mind starts racing and you're like, oh, I shouldn't have swung at that pitch or I wish I would have swung at that pitch. It's like, no, like,

It's done. It's over. You can't change it for one, two, tomorrow's a new day. Yeah. You're getting a fresher bat. I mean, the pitch, the pitch count turns over. So like, why are you acting as if you're not

Oh, no, right and that's where if you don't clear it or even at bat to bat if you don't try and forget it And you get hung up on it now you're thinking oh what last time he did XYZ to me He might do that again next thing. You know he doesn't do that and you're all discombobulated or You're still like ooh my hands need to do this this time and again you start thinking internally and

And obviously everybody can do different things. Like there could be somebody that can think about internal whatever. But some people are just so naturally gifted and amazing that they don't...

have any of these problems and most of us are not those people. I don't think Bo Jackson thought about a lot of these things. There's sometimes like freaks of nature who are just whatever. And yeah, chances are you're not that person. No, I over, like I definitely- I mean, any of us are not that person. Yeah, I overthink, I overanalyze. It's a good thing, but it's also kryptonite. Yeah. Especially in a game of failure. Because then you're trying to figure out what's wrong every time you don't succeed.

And when you're doing that, let's say you have a bad week and that's 20 straight at-bats where you suck. It's like, oh gosh, now I'm thinking 20 different thoughts in one at-bat or in one swing right now. And it's like, no, no, I got to turn off all of that. I got to surrender all of that because for one, it ain't going to help me. And two, you wake up every day, your body's different than the day before. Yeah.

let's say you've played 17 in a row, your legs are heavy. Like you have to figure out who you are that day. Not, oh, well, I did this in spring training when my body felt unbelievable after four months off. And I'm trying to do that in August when I've been grinding for four months. Like it's just not the same. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey on wondery.com slash survey.

Have you ever wondered how a circus performer could become the most powerful woman in the Byzantine Empire? Even the Royals is a podcast from Wondery that pulls back the curtain on royal families from ancient empires to modern monarchs to show you the darker side of what it means to be royalty. Be

Before she ruled an empire, Theodora was a teen sensation in circus shows, featuring dancing bears, burlesque performers, and blood-soaked chariot races. But when her star came crashing down, she clawed her way from rock bottom to the very top, using everything from comedy to espionage to get there.

Empress Theodora didn't just survive. She revolutionized women's rights across the Byzantine Empire, like changing laws to let women divorce men, own property, and bring abusive men to justice. For all her work in pioneering, she's remembered as the most powerful Byzantine empress in history. Follow Even the Royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Even the Royals early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus.