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Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars Disney Under Siege early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Seven years ago, me and some very talented colleagues of mine set out on a journey without an obvious destination. With a lot of ideas and not a lot of time, we started a little podcast called Business Wars...

In those five years, we've explored rivalries from the worlds of fast food and video games, the tumultuous automobile industry, the cutting edge of computer technology and life-saving vaccines that changed the course of a global pandemic. Hopefully, you've learned a little more about the things you buy and the men and women who bring them to you. But today, we wanted to take a moment to lift the curtain, to explore how we make our show and why we love it so much.

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From Wondery, I'm David Brown, and this is Business Wars. You know, I smile every single time I get to say that. On our show, we like to take you into the origin story of the companies we cover. Well, now we wanted to bring you in on our own origin story.

Tell the truth, I wouldn't even be here if it weren't for my guest, producer Karen Lowe. Karen helped develop the original concept for Business Wars, and she's been here since day one. Karen, welcome to Business Wars. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. You know, after all these years, you're finally on the show. So I never asked you this.

But why did you pick me to host Business Wars? I think that sort of came out of the blue when you called me up that day. Well, I was working with Wondery to develop Business Wars, and we wanted to create a show that wasn't just another peek inside a corner office with CEOs giving us their words of wisdom or talking heads.

We wanted a show that told the real drama behind some of these business rivalries, the characters that drove these businesses and the strategies and the things they did to take each other down or push each other out of the way. And I wanted a storyteller. I wanted a host who could make that come alive. So after working with you on Marketplace for a few years, I knew that you weren't just a host, you were a storyteller.

So there was really only one choice for me, and that was you. It was so much fun to be a part of that program at the time, and you were such a big part of that. When you called up, I thought, and this is true, I thought maybe this was a chance to work with you again on a one-off, that we'd be doing like maybe, you know, a show. I didn't even realize that you had in mind like a podcast series. That's how clueless I was.

And so that it was like, OK, so can we we'll talk next week and we'll be like, what, really? And off we went. Well, let's back up just a second, because when I called you, you didn't actually say yes right away.

Because in addition to your law degree, you were in the process of writing your dissertation to get a PhD in journalism. Like, who does that, really? But anyway, you, of course, were doing this. You didn't use your law degree. I'm pretty sure you're not using your PhD. But anyway, you had to get it. And you had a deadline to write your dissertation. And you said you couldn't do it. And so I was kind of bummed about it.

And I kind of sat with it for a minute. And then I called you back and I said, when is your dissertation due?

And you told me, and I think it was like mid-April or something. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And so I said, okay, let's start after your dissertation is due. And so we did. That's so funny. It's all coming back to me now. It's amazing. Well, it's been one wonderful ride. That's for absolute sure. And I got to tell you, I am so glad that I said yes. I mean, looking back on it, you know, you think about those moments in your life where like, you know, the sliding doors thing. Yeah.

That was one of those moments where I felt like, wow, what if I had just walked away from it?

You know, once upon a time when I was working on my studies, I actually wrote a paper that was accepted at a conference on how podcasts would never take off. So that shows you what I know, right? But in fact, business wars did just absolutely get picked up right from the get-go. And getting to work with you, Karen, I have to say, and all the other people who work on the show has been maybe the biggest joy of it all, because this really is that team thing.

where everyone is such a delight to work with and they work so hard on it there's almost like a passion without being corny about it you know there really is uh something special going on and you got it started well thank you and i agree it's the team that makes it special really is uh and everyone brings a different strength to the show um and the show is the beneficiary of all that so we had a concept we had a host had a senior producer we had a network

Karen, how did you land on Netflix versus Blockbuster as the first series? We put together a list of business stories. There were maybe 15, 20 business stories that we'd like to tell. And we knew coming out of the gate, it had to be really great if this was going to have legs. And so I was talking about it with my husband, Steve, who was working at Reuters at the time. And Netflix versus Blockbuster was on the list.

And he reminded me, you know, Gina Keating, who used to work with him at Reuters, wrote a book on this. And I was like, oh, that's right. She did.

So I called up Gina and I explained to her what we were doing. And lo and behold, she said, yeah, she'll do it. I'm like, whoa. Okay. So we're going to have our first series. Gina Keating, are your ears burning right about now? Yes, they are. So Gina, looking back, how did the process of writing that season about Netflix versus Blockbuster compared to say writing the book about it?

It was a whole lot faster, if you remember, and really intense.

because I had no idea what I was doing. I was in graduate school at the time, and I thought, oh, this is going to be great. My purpose of going to graduate school was to try to actually learn how to write something besides journalism, which I've been doing for 20, 30 years. And I wanted to do more books. I wanted to do movies and things like that. So when she called me, I thought, oh, this will be perfect. I'll learn how to write a podcast.

But I had no clue how to write for what we were going to do, which was sort of a dramatic sort of old fashioned radio show. She had to teach me the entire time, which I'm sure was incredibly irritating. When I look back at some of our emails and some of the script notes, I

I realized I was driving her crazy. And then you got edits from Karen and she tore everything apart. Ouch. Tell us about that process. What'd you learn about writing for podcasts? Well, when you write for a company like Reuters and it's about business and the people who are reading it are CEOs and they get extremely sensitive about everything that you write, you tend to be really exacting and you don't ever want to put anything into a story that you can't support because

So you get a little manic and not really creative. So when she would have me try to imagine what a particular scene was like, if you remember the one that we did about

the blockbuster people sending spies to stand outside of the Netflix hubs. I knew that that happened because the blockbuster people told me and the Netflix people told me, but if you remember, we actually had to like invent characters that were

would show up. I mean, I didn't know anything about these people. So we invented a lot of stuff that we knew happened, but we had to actually illustrate it. And that was incredibly difficult for me. I just felt every time like the sweat pouring down my body

Every time I had to do that. So she had to really get after me to do that. And also, I went into the weeds a lot because I spent two years writing that book and I had way too much knowledge about what happened. That's so funny because I'm imagining yourself as that journalist sort of

moving into this new area and you're sort of at war with yourself and you're watching the Google Doc where Karen is doing the edits, you're almost like trying to get into her head too because that's part of the editing process, right? It seriously was like being in each other's head. And it was great because I've never...

experienced anything like watching what I consider her kind of like a professor correcting your work. And it's, it's like simultaneously horrifying and also fascinating. Yeah.

And I understand the team wasn't easy on you, right? Why was that? I mean, we had to finish it. What was it, like eight weeks or something? Yeah, it was a pretty crazy turnaround time. I think it was like, yeah, two months, something like that. Yeah. And if you remember, I think you were already producing the first ones while we were still writing the last ones.

but it was grueling the day that we finished it. I think it was February of 2018 and it was early in the morning. I don't even know why. I walked into my kitchen from my office where my boyfriend was having breakfast and I looked at him and I said, I have no idea what I'm doing. And pretty soon the whole world is going to know that I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah.

It was such a scary feeling because it felt really out there. You know, it felt like old time radio. I used to love those programs when I was a kid, but I didn't know if anyone was going to go for that. I love how you're describing it as kind of old time radio, because, yeah, you're right. I mean, we were using a lot of the techniques that come out of that tradition and kind of reinventing it for modern listeners.

So finally the series airs. You know, it's off of the paper and into the earphones. What did you think, Gina? At first it was...

I was scared to listen to it because I didn't know what it was going to sound like. And I feel that way about almost everything that I write. It took me years to actually read my book. But then people started calling me and emailing me. And a lot of people were calling and emailing me. And the Blockbuster guys who were in the book were calling.

were calling me and talking about how great it was and the fact that they were getting tons of calls from people talking about the show and the story. And they were so happy because finally there was some understanding of what really happened in their battle with Netflix. So of course that made me really curious about how it turned out. And then I started listening to it and I was shocked.

shocked and really pleased at how you were able to make all those different characters come to life. I couldn't even believe it. Well, a big part of that, I have to say, I have to say, is the sound design. And we're going to talk about that in a few minutes, I think. I was also struck by the same things, Gina. And I remember playing it for that first episode, Blockbuster versus Netflix for our kids on a long drive to West Texas. And

The kids were quiet and listening closely. And I thought, oh, boy, this is going to do well. I mean, this is really cool. We were all listening to this. And I could see them looking out the window thinking about what was being said and all the things that were happening. And then when it was over...

They said, what happened next? Let's go to number two. And I don't think it had been released yet. But in any event, yeah, I kind of had a sense that it was special. This was a great experience for me because I finished grad school and it gave me the courage to think, well, you know what? I can write a movie. And I did. After we did Business Wars, I

I really wanted people to see the people who we were talking about because they're very special. If it hadn't been for Karen, I don't, I've never have had the guts to do it. So thank you, Karen. We were both crazy. We had no idea what we were getting into. So...

Turned out well. And the funny thing about it was when I look back at some of the emails, I mean, you're a very straightforward person. But at the time, I don't think that I realized how stressed you were about this thing because I just I kind of was like, well, this is kind of interesting and fun. Blunt. Was I too blunt? Yeah.

No, it's actually kind of funny when we read, you know, when I read the emails now. And the thing that was kind of amazing is, I mean, like, when are we ever going to have the founder of a company weighing in every single day on the way that we wrote the scripts? And I felt very well taken care of.

David, do you remember that first season? Oh, man. Yeah, I remember that first season, too. And I have to tell you, Karen, if you listen back to it, that first season is really quite different from what Business Wars has sort of evolved to today. How would you describe the changes and how do you think that helped the series as the years went by? Right. Well, you know, we went through the most iconic battles, you know, the Coke versus Pepsi battles and those kind of things.

But as business wars became more successful, I think we had more resources. We started hiring more people. Since the kinds of big rivalries were diminishing, we had to find other kinds of business stories and different ways to tell those stories, which took us, I think...

from the public arena where people saw it play out to much more behind the scenes where we got into the characters themselves inside the company and the struggles maybe they had within the organization before they even battled their rivals kind of thing. When we decided to go that route, it took us down different avenues of less obvious kind of business stories. I think, too, the way that, as you described, we started to sort of

as a team started rethinking, okay, what does that mean, the business wars concept? And is it always the sort of Nike versus Adidas or Coke versus Pepsi or the obvious ones, you know, because there are so many other things that are happening out there. So I think that in a way it gave us more latitude and brought in more talent and more ideas. And so that's, I think, been reflected in the show. And I'm so grateful.

that you are still a part of all of this, Karen, because this has just been a marvelous experience for me and I think for a lot of listeners. Stay tuned as we speak to writer Tristan Donovan and sound designer Kyle Randall, who'll tell us how they take an episode from humble start to thrilling finish.

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Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. One of our most popular fan questions we've received over the years is simply, how do you do it? How does a Business Wars story go from conception to reality? Well, as with most things, it starts with the word.

Writer Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant Media has been with our show since the very early days, crafting unforgettable stories with countless memorable moments. We sat down with Tristan to find out how he created some of the most harrowing scenes in Business Wars history, including the opening moments of The North Face vs. Patagonia.

Patagonia and North Face was a really different kind of flavor of competition compared to what Business Wars usually does. And that made it a really compelling series to do. So, you know, Coke versus Pepsi is very direct competition, for example. But Patagonia and North Face, they were almost like brothers in a way. They kind of came from the same place. The founders knew each other and were friends.

They shared the same kind of values. It was almost like this gruddly competition where they're trying to kind of outdo each other slightly, kind of, you know, who can push their ideals the furthest. So it wasn't your natural kind of market share clash, big fight of the titans kind of thing. It was almost this we're friends, but we kind of want to be the greatest of the two. So it was really interesting from that point of view.

another really interesting thing about Patagonia and the North Face is they really were hobby companies you know little pocket money businesses for two climbers who just wanted money to spend climbing you know they do their business and then shut it down for a few months to go off climbing and it turned into these global mega brands not just because of their passion but also because of wider trends in society so it's kind of a very interesting model it wasn't someone sitting down going oh I'm going to make a

billion dollar company called North Face. It really didn't start like that.

The opening scene of a Business Wars episode, the cold open as we call it, is crucial storytelling real estate. To kick off North Face versus Patagonia, Tristan crafted a scene exploring the genesis of both companies. The North Face founder, Doug Tompkins, and Patagonia founder, Yvonne Chouinard, are climbing the North Face of Mount Temple in the Canadian Rockies. But back in 1962, they're just climbing buddies, not business rivals.

The opening scene of any Business Wars episode, and especially the first one of the season, is about persuading people to invest their time in the show. You know, we have to capture listeners and prove to them that we're worth spending their time on. And there are three main things we kind of want out of a cold open. We want to hint or show the business competition that's central to the story. We want to introduce the main characters, and that could be people or it could be the companies that the show is about.

But we also kind of want action, some kind of drama with some stakes and ideally sound effect possibilities.

So with North Face Patagonia, when choosing this opening scene for the series, I knew episode one would really be telling about the founding of the two companies and how they came across the ideals they were founded upon. I kind of knew the ending had to be Yvonne Chouinard and Doug Tompkins going on their trip to Patagonia. And that meant we had to have a scene that predated that.

I chose this scene to start North Face versus Patagonia because I wanted something with a lot of action and the climb up Mount Temple had it all. You had kind of life-threatening peril, you had a storm coming in, rocks falling down, thunder in the distance.

So there was immediate danger, lots of sound effect potential. But for the story kind of side of it, you had the two founders of the company. You saw their relationship and how they were friends and what drove them, you know, desire to climb these impossible peaks.

So this was a great way to introduce the two lead characters, a great way to have an engaging, dramatic opening with the challenger climbing Mount Temple, and also a way to foreshadow kind of the competition that would be coming between their companies. Writer Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant Media says,

For a business war story to truly come alive, those stirring words have to be molded into thundering immersive audio. A business war scene needs to be engrossing. And to do that, it's not enough to just drop sound effects in and call it a day. The design is dense, filled with small touches that create an environment that puts you in the center of the action.

Well, our sound designer is Kyle Randall. He is a magician, a wizard. For the North Face vs. Patagonia, Kyle had to dramatize a life-or-death moment that would lead to the creation of the two companies duking it out for outdoor apparel supremacy. Two men clinging to the side of a mountain. One slip up and it could all be over. To realize this gripping scene, Kyle used all the tools at his disposal to make it feel like you, too, are clinging to the side of a treacherous freezing mountain.

We asked Kyle to break down this moment piece by piece to show how the magic of business wars is conjured up.

I found Tristan's writing at the beginning of this episode super compelling, in large part because of the tone that he sets. It's so lonely and desolate up at this beautiful high-altitude location. Here's a bit of what that script sounded like before any sound and music were added. It's 1962, and in the Canadian Rockies, American climbers Yvonne Chouinard and Doug Tompkins are taking on a formidable challenge. The north face of Mount Temple.

At 11,600 feet, the mountain towers over Lake Louise. So my thinking when I started in on the sound design was, how can I enhance this and make it something that draws the listeners in even more? To do that, I started thinking about what kind of music would be right. Added in some howling winds that kind of give the tone of the high altitude.

And for both the music and the sound design, the goal is to give us information as listeners that we might not know yet. So even though we don't know that we're high up on a cliff face, we want to feel that way and kind of maybe we don't know exactly what we're feeling, but we have that sense.

So I chose something that was kind of beautiful, but had some tension to it. And then also for each season of the show, I try to incorporate the time period and the setting into the styles of the music chosen. So in this case, the guitar helps to hint at the South American setting and to give us a sense of the tension right from the start. Then also since it's 1962, anything electronic might feel out of place. So it's kind of hitting that sweet spot.

It's 1962, and in the Canadian Rockies, American climbers Yvonne Chouinard and Doug Tompkins are taking on a formidable challenge. The north face of Mount Temple. At 11,600 feet, the mountain towers over Lake Louise. The north face is its coldest, iciest, and most unforgiving side. And that's exactly why Chouinard and Tompkins want to conquer it.

So we open with music and wind together. And then the next sounds that come in underneath David's narration are the sounds of the climbing team in the background. So this is an example of where Tristan suggested something in the script just to kind of put in some sounds of them climbing. And so I decided to put them in before David actually mentions the climbing team so that we have a chance to hear the mountain and notice the climbers in the scene for ourselves before we learn exactly what's going on.

The reason why we bring the sound in before David's narration mentions it, first of all, it's more engaging and interesting. It's really a best practice in sound design so that we have a chance to hear the thing and kind of engage with it as an unknown. And then we get filled in on what exactly it is. That makes it more interesting and gives us a chance to really picture what's going on before we get the fully clear picture of what exactly it is. Back to the scene. And that's exactly why Shannard and Tompkins want to conquer it.

Tompkins stretches his arm over his head and grabs the ledge above. He tightens his grip and starts probing with his right leg for a foothold. But the moment he finds his target, Chouinard shouts at him from below. Rock! Tompkins immediately presses his body against the mountain's hard rock face. A split second later, a football-sized lump of limestone hurtles past him, headed for the valley floor several thousand feet below.

In general, for both the voices and the other sounds, the goal is to make us feel like we as listeners are immersed in the action as much as possible. So here we're taking the perspective of one of the climbers. When one calls out, I adjusted the sound so that it feels like it's coming from a distance down below us, as if we're the lead climber, and he's further down the cliff from us.

Then, as we hear the rock falling, we want it to come from above us and then feel like it's almost on top of us. First with some debris falling that maybe got knocked loose as it started to fall, and then the sound of the rock wishing down past us, and finally the echoes as it falls into the valley below, hitting walls as it goes down.

In terms of those adjustments to the sounds, that can mean a lot of things, but basically the sounds that I use, whether they come from a library or we record them ourselves, they don't necessarily work in the scene without some changes. So the rock falling is actually a combination of a bunch of different sounds. The debris, the whoosh as it falls past us, a few different types of hits, and even some deeper sounds and brighter sounds that are combined to give the nice cracks as it hits the walls and things.

Then there are changes made to give us a spatial sense of where the sound is and how far away it is. The rock tumbling away down below was just a series of hits that all sounded about the same, but when I put it into the scene I added panning, which is adjusting whether the sound is to our left or our right. That makes it feel like it's falling off to one side. Panning in particular is super important for all of these immersive scenes since it tells us a lot about where the sound is coming from and gives us a sense of the space around us.

I also added more reverb or echo and lowered the volume as it gets farther away from us. And I changed the tone of the sound in a few other ways to make it feel like it's actually moving farther away from us. After two more hours of treacherous climbing, Tompkins and Chouinard stopped for the night and pitched their tent on a snowy ledge halfway up the mountain. This might be their first climb together, but from the moment they met, it was clear they were kindred spirits.

As the scene changes locations and moves from place to place, there are transitions that need to happen to help reinforce the fact that we're moving from one to another. So in this next section of our clip, we change locations and move into a bit that's more driven by David's narration than what's happening around us.

Tristan's writing here is a huge help because he waits until they're hunkered down in their tent to get into that background narration that's coming. But to help sonically, I made sure that we hear them pitching their tent and getting in, and then added a little space and the final zip up to show that we're moving into the tent and to help us feel like we're heading into that new section.

Then a little bit of added music also helps to signal that we're heading into some narration. And at this point, we're just going to talk about their past and their relationship for a little while. We're sitting in the tent, so the other sounds can fade out a little bit. And let us concentrate on the words and the music. Both of them love being outdoors, living free and off the grid. They call themselves dirtbags, climber slang for adventurers devoted to scaling mountains. They lie in their sleeping bags, exhausted and about to drop off.

So as we build toward the ending, the idea is to up the drama.

Tristan's writing does a lot here because, you know, the wind's picking up, the storm is coming, they need to get off the mountain. But instead of having the music immediately feel dangerous and tense, I decided to start with something that was simple but raw. And it's Mendelin, so it still has that sense of place. But it has a bit of danger, a calm before the storm. Not good, not good. We need to get out of here.

As soon as the line, "We need to get out of here," happens in the dialogue, that's where the music starts to swell. Not only to punctuate that point, but also move us out of that little bit of dialogue and into another section of narration as the time is jumping forward and we're getting into them trying to get off of the mountain. He's right. Their tent is on an exposed ledge that's vulnerable to avalanches. They've got to get off this mountain before the storm hits. As we go from there, the music gets more intense to mirror the growing action.

And the sounds in this section are placed really deliberately to mirror the peril that the characters are in. They race to pack their tent and begin their escape. They take turns leading the dark descent, relying completely on each other to find a safe route down. But then there are some key sounds of their descent put between phrases that they pop and stand out. Like between just one mistake, there's a pause, and then could be fatal.

In that pause, I added a little sharp ice pick sound to keep their descent going and just up the tension a little bit. That kind of follows into thunder and falling debris, which then David fills us in on. So it's all this kind of dance between the narration, the sounds, and filling us in on what the sounds are. Rock crumbles beneath their feet. Stiff, cold wind blasts their faces. Thunder rumbles ever closer.

Then there's a bit of a time skip as we finally get to the bottom. So the music has a job here. It needs to take us from the intense scene that we've been in to, okay, we're at the bottom, we're safe.

So it gets lighter, we hear piano, which we haven't heard yet in the scene, and it's a bit of a moment of calm. And then, because we don't actually have very long until the end of the cold open and we need to get that heightening of the drama and the excitement for the rest of the episode, the music again needs to turn on a dime and turns in a more aspirational direction.

We're now looking forward to the rest of the whole season and moving toward the sting out, which is the part where the music ends on a big crescendo. And that will make the end of the cold open exciting and inspirational, plus get us interested in hearing the rest of the story. Finally, as the sun begins to rise, the spent duo reach the foot of the mountain. They fail to conquer the North Face, but they've made it out alive. The close call deepens their bond.

A bond between two climbers who will soon turn their dirtbag lifestyles into rival businesses. Patagonia and the North Face. Two companies that will turn mountain gear into everyday wear while also challenging the very way business is done.

You're listening to Business Wars. Make sure not to go anywhere because I understand comedian Josh Gondelman is going to be giving me quite the grilling. Stay with us.

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Hello, friends. I'm Josh Gondelman. That's Gondelman with a D-E-L in the middle, not a D-L-E. And that's for if you want to write a fan letter or a letter of complaint after this episode. Today, I'm not a guest. I'm the host. So, let's get started.

Sitting across from me virtually is someone I hope to be best friends with after the next 10 minutes. David Brown, welcome to Business Wars. Hey, Josh, I would be lying if I didn't say I am petrified with what you're about to do. I have no idea what you're about to spring on me. It's not so easy to be on the side of the business war, is it?

No, it's not. It isn't, Josh. Well, of course, I don't know completely because you haven't given me the questions, but I'm already terrified. The sweat on my forehead should give it away, but there we are. David, you're an expert on business, but you're also a consumer just like us, the common folk, desperately fumbling around to find the ripest avocado at the local corner store or one that's not ripe quite yet and we'll be able to eat in two days when we want an avocado. Yeah.

You buy stuff, though. You have opinions. If we were to ask you, Duncan versus Starbucks, obviously you'd say Duncan, and perhaps you'd share a few reasons why, like munchkins are my life, or Boston made me do it, or I just find Ben Affleck incredibly persuasive as a pitch man.

You're so right about Duncan. I don't know how you knew that right off the top, but yeah, you're right. Maybe I'm also a little bit speaking for myself. So I'm going to give you this battle and I'm going to ask you to take a side in this war of businesses. So if we were, you said Duncan versus Starbucks, that's perfect practice. And all you need to do is give me the side you come down on and a couple of reasons why. There are no winners and losers in this game. Great. Well, there are no losers. You'll be the winner.

Are you ready to play? I, yeah, I'm as ready as I'm going to be. I think. Let's stay with food for now. You had a season of business wars covering Taco Bell and Chipotle. So I must ask when you stop into one of these places, are you going for a taco or a burrito? Which do you prefer? Ah, that's very, that's a good question. Um, I,

I'm going to go for the taco. And the reason for that is a burrito sometimes seems a little bit much, right? I do like crunchy tacos. And I know a lot of people like the soft tacos because they don't, you know, crumble in your lap when you're driving or whatever. I like the flavor, that corn crunch. And, you know, the other thing about the taco is that it seems to me, even though I guess this would apply to either.

What I love about the taco is its pure simplicity. There's just something about taking a shell and stuffing it with something and you see what's in there. There's a transparency. It's like a pizza versus a calzone. Transparency. Exactly. And I think of it as driving food, too. But I don't know why. But I put that bag right beside me in the passenger's chair and going down the road eating tacos. I love it. So, yeah, tacos every day.

And a taco behind the wheel, right? That seems like, oh, okay. Like this is at a stoplight, a burrito behind the wheel. That's a sentence for a eulogy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Excellent choice. Tacos over burritos. Listeners take note. We're getting to know David as we go. Moving on from dinner or lunch onto dessert. Business Wars covered Ben and Jerry's versus Haagen-Dazs. So the people need to know, do you prefer vanilla or chocolate ice cream? Okay. Vanilla. Vanilla.

And the reason for vanilla, I think that it's sublime. Chocolate just kind of hits you, right? It's got a lot of flavor. But the vanilla, it...

You, you, it's almost like it's more fun to eat because the taste kind of flowers, if you know what I mean. It's like a nice cologne or perfume or something. Too much is too much. But vanilla, oh, it just, it's sublime. Sublime is the word that comes to mind. That's beautiful. The subtlety of it. Yes, absolutely. I also think vanilla really lends itself towards

It's very accommodating to toppings in a way that chocolate sometimes fights with them. Absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing about that, that whole vanilla thing, you can taste the fake and you can taste the real, you know, in a way that maybe chocolate kind of covers some of that up.

I love vanilla ice cream and I'm a real sucker for ice cream, period. And it almost doesn't matter what brand. I'll eat anything. But I do like, I do like, I prefer vanilla over chocolate for sure. Excellent. Do you have a go-to mix in or topping or do you just go vanilla, plain and just savor that simplicity? You know, I savor the simplicity, but...

But I think that something can be said for Sprinkles. And I think it's because there's a certain nostalgic factor for me. It looks festive and fun and simple. And that really appeals to me. Beautiful. Boy, this is like poetry, man. I feel like I'm doing a little ode to some of my favorite things here. I think it's incredible. I think you're not only...

are you revealing a little bit about yourself to the listener? But I think you are making this beautiful case. You're saying, look, if you've got a vanilla ice cream, I'll take all comers. Yeah. If you've got it, my hands up. So there we go.

Okay. Switching gears to all the times business wars has covered auto rivalries. Would you rather have a truck or a sports car for your day-to-day driving? For day-to-day driving. Day-to-day driving. That's a hard one because, you know, I'm a motorhead. I love cars and motorcycles and all that stuff.

I think a truck is like a really great dog, I think. I mean, to me, if I'm spending long amounts of time behind the wheel, I prefer a truck. To me, there's a certain companionship that a truck provides, you know, and you get to know it. It gets to know you. It does everything that you need it to do. And without a whimper, you know, that's the beauty of a truck. Sports cars...

tend to be a little needy. They really require a lot more attention, attention to the road, attention to what's going to inevitably break down because you're pushing it so hard. So I think a truck, and besides, I live in Texas, so there is really only one right answer here, truck. It did sound a little bit, your rationale and your love of a truck, a good truck, did sound a little bit like a country song.

Yeah, guilty. In this hierarchy, we've gone truck over sports car. Where does motorcycle fall in this? Because you mentioned motorcycles. Boy, that's tough. But I will say that some of my most favorite experiences have been on two wheels. I have so many very vivid memories of driving down PCH, coastal California and

smelling the onions as I rode past Gilroy, you know, and you can, the sensory experience of riding a motorcycle is like nothing that I've ever been able to adequately convey to my friends who don't ride. When you're cruising on a motorcycle, you're hearing the rush of the wind, and it's almost, almost like sailing in that regard. There's a certain little drone, the whoo, like this, you know, and you can move up the revs, whoo,

I have had experiences where I felt like I'm writing the song based on the pitch of the engine at a certain speed. So it's almost a spiritual experience. So it's hard for me to compare. If you haven't tried it, Josh, oh my gosh, you got to give it a go. It's so much fun. I'm...

I'm a very fearful person. Don't be afraid. Again, with your poetry, you've made a case for me and I'm like substantially intrigued. I think harder to savor a taco on a motorcycle. Yeah. Yeah. There's that. There's that. But that's what your truck's for. So there you go. And when you said some of my favorite experiences have been on two wheels, I immediately thought to myself, I did once almost tip over my parents' minivan when I was in high school. Yeah.

I wouldn't call that a favorite experience, but I have been on two wheels. So we have some common ground here. That's great. Next business war, Taylor Swift versus Scooter Braun. This is a great season of business wars. What's your favorite Taylor Swift song? The listeners need to know. Oh boy. That's hard because I really have a lot of respect for Taylor Swift and feel awful that when she got, when she started out,

I regret to say that I wrongfully dismissed her because of the hype that was surrounding. I mean, everyone was falling over themselves about Taylor Swift. And this was at a time when she was transitioning from her success in country music to, you know, her pop sensation that she's become. Would it be a bad answer to say Bad Blood? I don't think so at all. I'm not sure.

I mean, to me, that one really resonated with me and it made such a big impression. My kids were listening in the backseat of the truck and they loved to sort of turn me on to music because they know how much I really love music. And that was the song that they used to pry away my resistance, you know, it was Bad Blood. So it's got a certain sentimental, you know, significance to me. So I guess I'd have to say that.

That's great. So our final question of this segment, what is your favorite season of Business Wars? I know it's hard to pick. It's like picking a favorite child in that we all do it privately, but don't want to do it publicly. But the one that maybe you had the most fun working on or maybe the one where you learned the most. That's a hard one because you're right. You're right about the sort of the analogy, the kids, except if my kids are listening, I do not actually have a favorite. Okay. That was Josh talking.

And I'm free to say that because I don't have any kids. I can just judge. I think that maybe I have a special fondness for Gibson versus Fender. What I really liked about that season in particular was that I didn't know a whole lot of the backstory. I knew the little bits and pieces of it. And I love the idea of...

Two companies that did head-to-head battle and are still doing head-to-head battle but not cutthroat That there is room enough in the marketplace. It's not a zero-sum game in other words always you know what I mean It's not you have a winner and a loser you can have two winners and I would say that despite the ups and downs of both companies and because I know both brands and love them both for different reasons I

I really loved the Gibson versus Fender series. What a lovely answer. And I think that's a perfect place to conclude our episode. David Brown is the host of the award-winning podcast Business Wars. I'm Josh Gondelman, host of this one segment of the award-winning podcast Business Wars. Thank you for joining me.

Should I hang up now? Josh, you were priceless. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much, David. This was so much fun. As we wrap up our behind-the-scenes tour, I was trying to think of the perfect words to say thank you. Thank you for listening. Well, I got a message from a listener that touched me in a way, well, so many of your stories do. It was from a listener in Kentucky. I want to read you her message, slightly edited for privacy, and then I'll read you my reply.

The subject line, your podcast is our bonding time. Hello, my girls 12 and 10 asked me to find a way to contact you. Business Wars has given us a chance to really bond after my divorce. I was the sole breadwinner, so I was always working. This show has given me the chance to talk to them about how business works and how company culture can impact the final product.

After every series, my daughters and I do a taste test to compare the two companies and to decide if the one we would rather work for has the product we prefer. My younger one, age 10, always asks what the new series is for our weeks together. She keeps hoping you'll do Lysol versus Clorox. Again, I want to thank you for all of the special memories your work has given my girls and me. Signed, a listener in Kentucky. And here's what I wrote back.

I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading your message just now and tell your daughter what an awesome suggestion. Lysol versus Clorox would make a great series. I'll share that idea with our production team. I'm genuinely touched by you reaching out and sharing how you and the girls listen to the podcast and make the concept come alive. How creative and fun. And as a dad myself, well, I can't think of many things more precious than those moments of connection. Those are forever. To be a small part of those memories means more than I can say.

When we record Business Wars, I try to imagine, visualize the listeners out there because I find it helps with the performance of a script in a rather solitary studio. Your message is a gift to me. I'll be thinking of y'all when I next get behind the microphone. From Austin and Los Angeles and Boston and San Francisco, from all the places where our team members work so hard on Business Wars each week, warm wishes to you and the girls. And thanks again for reaching out. And if you have more ideas for episodes, we'd love to hear them.

Yours truly, David. And you know, I might say the same thing to you right now as you're listening in your car on the way to work or coming home, when you're walking the park, on the train, at the gym, or wherever you might be right now. In ways big and small, you've made Business Wars something special. I think of you as part of the family, and you made this journey more precious than any of us could have imagined from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you.

If you like Business Wars, you can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. ♪

From Wondery, you've been listening to Behind the Scenes at Business Wars. Next time on Business Wars, Boeing is in trouble. In recent years, the aviation giant has prioritized short-term shareholder gains over its engineer-led culture, leading to the crisis of the 737 MAX. Meanwhile, its chief rival Airbus struggles to fully capitalize on Boeing's misfortunes as both companies vie for dominance in the commercial aviation market.

I'm your host, David Brown. Emily Frost and Kelly Kyle produced this episode. Our producer is Grant Rutter. Sound design by Kyle Randall. Special thanks to Gina Keating, Tristan Donovan, and Josh Gondelman. Our senior producers are Karen Lowe and Dave Schilling. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman and Marsha Louis for Wondery.

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