Price Wars: The Fall of Dollar Stores | Duped | 3
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Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars, Price Wars, The Fall of Dollar Stores, early and ad-free, right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars. You know, dollar stores can be extremely handy. If you need some party supplies in a pinch, you might just run over to your local Dollar Tree to pile some birthday candles and noisemakers into the cart.

And for a lot of people, they offer a convenient and affordable way to get groceries and other staples. But lately, dollar store chains are trying to change their perception with customers and lure in more affluent shoppers. One of the big chains, Dollar General, launched a new store format geared towards shoppers who would typically turn to a Target or even a TJ Maxx for beauty, home decor, and office supplies. It's called PopShelf, and its stores are filled with on-trend and higher-priced merchandise.

There's another trend that's changing the profile of dollar store shoppers. Shoppers looking for dupes, short for duplicates, of high-end brands are finding themselves headed to the dollar stores, where you might find a face cream with identical ingredients to some brand that costs nearly 30 times as much.

Anne-Marie Conti is the deputy editor at Wirecutter, where she reviews consumer products to help readers figure out which ones are worth the investment. She's written a lot about dollar stores. Her mom is a huge fan. And Anne-Marie has become an expert at understanding which dollar store products to buy and which ones to leave on the shelf. Anne-Marie will help us navigate the aisles of the dollar store to understand who's shopping there, if there's still real value, and where they fit in under this new era of tariffs, trade wars, and shifting consumer habits.

Later on, Chantal Fernandez of The Cut helps us dive into the dupe trend more directly. Chantal wrote a major report on the queen of the dupes, the online retailer Quince. And she explains how these shops can pull it off and why Quince is quickly becoming more popular than online competitors Temu and Shein. Grab a basket, because all that's coming up. You know, managing your workforce can be exhausting. Are you tired of a costly and lengthy hiring process?

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Anne-Marie Conti, welcome to Business Wars. Oh, I'm so thrilled to be here. We're thrilled to have you. Tell us a little bit about how you encountered dollar store culture. And I guess you should call it a culture because it really is a thing, huh?

You know that Taylor Swift lyric, you wouldn't last an hour in the asylum where they raised me? That's it. My mother, obsessed. Obsessed with the dollar store, always has been, loves it, embraces it. And...

My act of rebellion is working at Wirecutter where we test products and really like things to last and be long term. So, you know, my mother owns multitude of things from the

the dollar store, one of my moments of rage was baking a cake and a beautiful cake that I had baked. And I put it in her cake carrier and I locked the sides and I picked it up by the handle. Oh, no. And the bottom fell out and hit the floor. And I was like, never again. Oh, that's terrible. That is terrible. What other experiences have you had at the dollar store that you recall?

It's not all bad, but I'm going to give you another bad example. I was reporting a story actually about the dollar store and I'm writing it from my mom's house. I was visiting her during the summer and she is carrying around a laundry basket that is held together with various forms of tape. And

When I finished, it was so poetic. When I finished the story, the bottom completely fell out of the thing. And I was like, uh-huh. Yep. I took a video and made a reel out of it because what else are you going to do? Yeah, I think we have that reel right here. Let's hear part of that video. And as I was writing the Ask Wirecutter advice column about products that are better not to buy at the dollar store, my mother's dollar store laundry basket completely bit the dust.

Look at this thing. It's like you heard me talking about it. The bottom fell out. It's been taped together. The cheap plastic bends and folds and it pinches you as you're trying to carry it. The handles aren't sturdy. I hate that thing. Beautiful. Absolutely. I guess the question when you were reporting with Wirecutter was, how do I stop my mom from buying dollar store junk?

But I think a lot of people sort of growing up in that environment, shall we say, kind of got hooked on dollar store themselves because the appeal does seem to go a little bit beyond that.

I don't know, the price tag itself. Yeah. You know, I'm poking fun a little bit, but I also really want to acknowledge that there are people who lack access and funds and the dollar store can be available to them for a variety of things. And that's really it's a reality of today's retail environment. So there are lots of people who shop at the dollar store and they're

And the dollar store that I think we're defining can be Dollar General, can be Dollar Tree, but they've really consolidated into those two big chains. Family Dollar was bought by Dollar Tree in 2015. So there are still some independent stores, but those are mostly the big players. Yeah, yeah. And who's actually using these when we're talking about folks who don't really have any other options, but they're not the only ones.

Yeah, we're seeing people that earn less than $65,000 a year. We're also seeing people like boomers, like my mother, teachers, crafters, people that are planning for a party often will use things from the dollar store. They are really well known for their helium balloons. So they do reach a lot of people and in a variety of income levels. Well, we should talk a little bit about why those people, for instance, boomers, why did they seem to be drawn to dollar stores?

I think as you get older, even if you're not on a fixed income, I think income does start to become tight. And I think also a lot of boomers were raised in an environment where things were tight. So you're going back to your childhood. You're going back to a place where you think that you're getting the best value for your money, whether or not that's true. Yeah, for sure. And at the same time, though, we're seeing sort of a resurgence of dollar store culture, especially online. Have you picked up on any of that? Yes, I have.

I am fed a lot of those videos. They just they know who exactly to feed it to. They know that I'm interested in the dollar store. I find a lot of those videos are for content rather than reality. I actually one was served to me last night. A dad was restocking his drinks and his snack containers. And I was just

screaming into my phone, if you just went to the grocery store and bought it in bigger quantities and broke it down into snack-sized containers, it would be better value for your money. Interesting. Interesting. So, well, now there's something right there because there's the perception that the dollar store has the values. But as you're pointing out, once you start to break down these quantities, maybe the value's not really there? Yes. I think in a lot of cases, I think it's also...

There's health and safety issues. There is perhaps

perhaps sometimes less regulation or you're just never really sure where some of this is coming from. I know advocacy groups have raised concerns about levels of contaminants in some of the products. And so you just really want to make sure that what you're buying is something that isn't going to affect your health and safety. How serious is that concern of health and safety? You know, you talk about some of these, a lot of these objects come from the same general region of the world, if you will.

Yeah, they import a lot of things internationally. I believe it's about 40% of their products are imported. And, you know, there was a report of Dollar Tree leaving lead-tainted applesauce on store shelves, right? Like that is a real risk. That's serious. And so when recalls happen, people need to be aware of them and make sure that they are addressing it and the store itself needs to be addressing it. Well, this is a real treat for us because

You guys have quite the reputation when it comes to telling folks what and what not to buy. So what would you consider to be the good should buy list at a dollar store as opposed to those things that should not be on the list? People generally go for household supplies, seasonal items and personal care products. My general rule is don't buy anything sharp.

that can potentially ruin something expensive or that can affect your health and safety or that goes on or in your body. And that limits you pretty significantly at the dollar store. So nothing that's supposed to cut, right? Scissors, knives, anything like that is going to be made out of a cheaper metal. There's just no way to get around it. You can't sell something at those prices and have it be

quality. Vegetable peeler, for example? Yeah. I mean, we actually like a vegetable peeler. We like the Kuhn Rikon vegetable peeler. It's $8. And you're not going to get one for that much less at the dollar store. So for us...

you know, we've tested it. We really like that peeler. It's really nice in your hand. And so that's the type of thing where, you know, if you're going to spend just a few dollars more, you're going to get a higher quality product, something like a greater. Now, our greater pick, I will admit, is I think it's $20. However, it comes with a 25 year warranty. So you are going to keep this greater and

hopefully for most of your life. Right. And it's incredibly sharp. It works well. And that's what you want. You want a grater that's going to work each and every time and not be something that you have to throw into the trash that just ends up in a landfill. Okay. So the grater and the peeler we're leaving on the shelf.

Let's see. What about I'm thinking of some things that we encounter when we go into a dollar store. Oh, yeah. Cell phone charging cables. What about those? Oh, my gosh. Please do not. Your cell phone probably cost you a thousand dollars and you're going to spend two dollars on a charging cable. Please.

like for the safety of your phone. These things have been known. Sometimes they've caught fire. Like you definitely do not want to do anything that is going to affect an expensive object. Now, if you want to talk about things you could probably get away with, right?

Go nuts on the greeting cards, right? Why are you spending $7 on a greeting card when you could spend a dollar? Party supplies, things like banners and cray paper, that kind of thing. Totally fine. You're not eating it. I'm okay with it. Small kids entertainment items, things like stickers or coloring books or notepads. As long as your kids aren't at the age where they're putting things in their mouth,

Again, totally cool. And even, you know, school supplies, if you want to take a risk on a pencil sharpener, but things like binders or notebooks, legal pads, those kinds of things. Great. Go for it. Okay. All right. I want to loop back to food items for just a moment because I hear what you're saying about the applesauce, for example. But I've noticed that in recent years, there have been more and more items that I recognize from the local supermarket. You know, I'm thinking of particular potato chips, for example.

Wouldn't that be safe? I mean, that's my intuition is, hey, it's packaged at some plant somewhere. I see this on the shelves of some place that I trust.

Do you trust the dollar shop for something like that? We have not done any testing on this. So all I can say is you want to check those expiration dates. You want to make sure it's a product that you really trust. And you know what? I'm not certainly not going to stop anyone, but I also think that the grocery store is a much more reliable option.

Something else that I've seen a lot of in recent months, and that's skincare products. It seems like there are a lot of influencers out there saying, hey, listen, why spend, you know, $25, $30, $50 on X when you could buy this at the dollar store? The rule, nothing that goes on and in your body covers any sort of skincare because we have seen in reports that

These products can contain high levels of contaminants. And so we just want to be 100% sure that you're not putting yourself at risk. Okay, well, fair enough. You're ruthless. You are absolutely ruthless. What about smarter shopping at the dollar store? We just got our cart. We're going to start going through. I guess we're going to hit the card section first. Anything else? Dollar stores can be a good way to save money if you have the time and the access.

Going elsewhere may be better. And so I think that if you really want to maximize what you buy at the dollar store, just be careful to look at the price per quantity, the quality and what the package contains and consider if it's really an item you need, because sometimes

We were just talking a lot about health and safety. But I think the other thing about the dollar store is that it really tempts people to overconsume because everything is so cheap. And if we're thinking about it from a sustainability standpoint, you really don't want to impulse purchase a lot of

that you may not use long term. And I do know that a lot of crafters will put together different items from the dollar store. That's a big thing on TikTok. But just make sure it's something that you actually want and you will actually use. Okay, confess, confess. Do you ever find yourself just slipping into the dollar store and picking up something quick or not really? Oh, I did. So here's me standing on my high horse telling you not to buy anything. My

My mother and I were out the other day. She was getting a haircut. She hands me two dollars and she says, go to the dollar store. And the first thing I said was no. And then she said, and buy some candy. And I went, all right, OK. So I bought some Mike and Ike's and we ate them and neither of us died. But I'm just coming from a really cautious standpoint. And it's not something that I do regularly.

We have to take a short shopping break. Anne-Marie Conte is deputy editor at Wirecutter. And when we come back, we're going to be talking about the longevity of the dollar store and how something called tariffs might make it a bit harder to get some of this stuff so darn cheap. Stick around.

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Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. My guest is Anne-Marie Conte. She's deputy editor at Wirecutter, where she writes about and reviews the latest consumer products. Okay, let's talk about the big T in the room here. Tariffs, possibility of trade wars.

You've heard a lot about this. I know a lot of listeners have as well. How do you think that these proposed tariffs might affect the dollar store experience? Or is there any real way of knowing right now? Well, Dollar Tree has told us, right? Back in December, they said they may stop selling some items or they may have to raise prices due to the effects of the trade wars. So that we are seeing in reality. I'm seeing some reports online on Reddit and elsewhere of people saying that at their dollar store, they've already seen prices increase.

Now, whether or not that's directly related to the trade wars or the company is taking an opportunity to raise prices because people are nervous, I can't say. But we are seeing that prices are rising already and we are seeing that the fear of the tariffs and the increases is really causing a lot of pressure. Well, they're no longer really dollar stores anymore, right? I mean, I think Dollar Tree is already what?

$1.25 for a lot of its items. Is that right? Yes. They raised that in 2021 from $1 to $1.25. And what I'm seeing is that people's local stores are now raising to $1.50 or $1.75 as a base price and goes up to $7. Dollar General is actually not really a dollar store. I know it says dollar in the name, but a lot of their prices are higher to begin with than Dollar Tree's.

Interesting. Interesting. Now let's talk about another contender here when you're talking about steep budgeting. Temu, online marketplace Temu, also affected by the tariffs. I'm curious if these tariffs might level the playing field for the dollar stores and other cheap online marketplaces. You think folks might be more inclined to shop in those places? They don't have to wait two weeks for something like a picture frame?

So Temu is going to be affected by the de minimis tax exemption, which means that anything shipped under $800 was exempt from taxes. So that is going to affect them significantly. I don't recommend that people shop it either, but at least the dollar store isn't stealing your data. So we have seen multiple reports that Temu is connected to the Chinese Communist Party. They could be potentially mining your data. It's just not a

a risk that I would personally take. And so I think that the one advantage of the dollar store in this scenario is that you can touch and feel the merchandise and not get duped. I've seen a lot of people post about, oh, I thought I was buying this. And it turns out it's a photo of the thing I thought I was buying. And so that is one advantage of the dollar store. But

Who survives? I'm not really sure. We're already seeing some of these stores contract. Dollar General is contracting significantly. Interesting. Interesting. You've mentioned something that I think a lot of folks, a lot of boomers perhaps, may have memories of, and that's the five and dime. Yeah. Of course, we've seen the disappearance of the five and dime, except as a kind of nostalgic throwback here and there or in some small touristy town in Vermont or something like that.

But the soul of the five and dime was always inexpensive goods, things that were just good enough. You might not keep it for a lifetime, but you could always go in. There was a kind of general store quality. And I think that in a way that's been part of the appeal in the suburbs of the dollar stores. What do you think happens once we're talking about the inevitable inflationary pressure, whether there are tariffs or not? We're seeing this inflationary pressure everywhere. And I wonder...

What happens to the dollar stores as they become more expensive and some try to sort of move a little bit upscale to keep their customers coming in? This is a really interesting case study because Dollar General created PopShelf, which was exactly that. It was aimed at the middle income consumer. They call themselves a stress-free shopping destination. And it's party supplies. It's DIY. It's all the stuff that you're seeing on TikTok.

And so they opened two test stores in 2020, and then they announced in 2021 that they were going to be opening a thousand stores by 2025. Well, we're now in 2025, and they have just announced that they are closing 96 of their stores and converting those pop shelves into regular Dollar Generals. Interesting. And that is really because these middle-income consumers are really contracting, and they are shopping for needs and not wants. Right.

Wow. What about Five Below? Have you had a chance to check one of those out? I have been in Five Below. I have also been caught a few times in Five Below with my kids. We buy craft supplies from them. I did, you know, against my better judgment. My kid wanted a water bottle from them. We bought it and it survived.

It spilled constantly and the threads of her water bottle were off. And so every time we went to close it, it would be a little bit wonky and then the thing would tip over and spill. And I said, for $5, this was not worth my time and energy. And so that again, like, you know, even when I relax a little, I'm always taught a lesson. Well, you've just taught us a lesson. That's for sure. Oh,

Although sometimes as stocking stuffers, I think five below has its place maybe. Sure. No. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not an absolutist. I'm with you there. Okay. All right. Well, what about this idea of moving the dollar store upscale? I mean, obviously when people are buying for needs, necessities and that sort of thing, not going to work. But I know that some dollar stores have tried to get some higher end products to keep customers interested. And you got to wonder, given...

where the dollar store is sort of in the crosshairs of all of these tariffs and inflationary pressures. What then is the future of the dollar store? I mean, do you think that if they can't make it by going upscale right now, where do you see it in, I don't know, what, five, 10 years? It's really hard to tell, but I do think that

considering that the core customer is low income and they are going to need a place to shop and they are going to be tight on time and money, that there will be a place for the dollar store. But I also would really encourage people to shift to the thrift store and

And also online buy nothing groups have proliferated in the past few years. And that's a great way to get objects that are great and 90% off. You're paying a dollar or two. I was just at a church rummage sale and I bought a great pair of scissors. I bought two skeins of yarn and I bought a craft kit.

for $3 total. You know, you sound like one of those shoppers that just loves to shop for the fun of it. Am I hitting on anything or no? I actually find shopping to be a little bit torturous. Is that true? Yes. No, I'm telling you because I think a lot of people at Wirecutter feel that way because we really do want to cut through the noise. There is so much noise out there. But what I love is a good deal and a good find. So

I really like the hunt. And when I go into a thrift store or a rummage sale or something like that, that is really the hunt. But that's because I do have the time for that.

And so I accumulate over time the things that I need. I bought a microplane grater for $3 the other day. And so that was like a delight. And so now I'll have that for several years. And so I always have a running list of the things that I need in the back of my head that I can keep an eye out for. But when you're really under pressure and you need a thing immediately, I understand that that's when you just have to like

go on Amazon or go to the dollar store and just grab it. But you know how when sometimes when a company emerges, it's like they come up with something that just meets that perfect need, fits that perfect slot. And you wonder, how did we get by for years and years without this particular thing? Fill in the blank. I kind of sense that right now, somewhere between Walmart and Target and the dollar store, there's this sweet spot for the middle class.

blue sky this for me. I mean, is there, is there, can you imagine say a, a way to capture that niche where you're, where you've got the middle-class shopper who doesn't really want to go the target route, wants to spend less, but doesn't want to go junk. You know, I have that, right. We have a wonderful set of local retailers. I'm lucky to live in the suburbs. So it's not super rural. I can get there, you know, quickly and easily, but

small businesses have sprung up to fill a lot of these needs. Refill shops are increasing in popularity. So people go and bring their own containers and we'll refill it. And they're reducing packaging that way. There's a small town candy store that just opened up. I really hope that they

stick around because what a delight. And we have a kitchen store in town too. So I really happen to be very lucky that I live in a place that has a lot of variety. And I do think that more small business owners are stepping up to fill that need. Before we let you go, Anne-Marie, I'd love to hear about your favorite product right now. Is there anything you've been gatekeeping because it's just so affordable and so good?

I, you know, this is not a Wirecutter pick, but it is a Wirecutter fan favorite. Muji makes a really great pen. I bought a box. They're about $1.25 each. Pens are not normally something that, you know, if you knew me, you would be like, she would never spend money on a pen. But a pen that writes really well is really important. So I always have my Muji pen with me. The other thing that, and it's so silly, but

It's the small items, the small, inexpensive items that work well every time that really get to the center of my heart. And it's dog poop bags. I'm telling you right now, the earth rated dog poop bags, they cost about a nickel a piece and they are big. They tie well. They work every time. They don't rip. And they're made 65 percent plastic.

from recycled plastic. And so they make me feel marginally better about the fact that I'm throwing them in the trash. And they just work every time. So if you're ever going to a party with Anne-Marie Conti, make sure that you bring along some Muji pins and dog poop bags. Earth rated, please. That's correct. Best birthday gift.

Anne-Marie Conte is deputy editor at Wirecutter, where she writes up product recommendations to help shoppers get the best bang for their buck. You can check out her reporting at Wirecutter.com. Anne-Marie Conte, it's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars. What a delight. Thank you so much. Coming up, Chantal Fernandez of The Cut joins us to talk about dupes and why these days they seem to generate more hype than the originals. Stay with us.

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Hey, welcome back to Business Wars. Dupes are everywhere these days. In case you haven't heard of dupes, the word short for duplicates, products that might have similar or identical ingredients to a more expensive version, but for a much lower price tag. And one area that's full of dupes is skincare. But I wanted to show you what the $1.25 tree had because I pay $13 for my face wash. It is Cetaphil and...

Look what they have now. Same ingredients, $1.25. Sort of feel doobie-doo, dooberoony. Nina Poole's just one online influencer identifying affordable copies of popular products. There are a lot of folks out there doing this sort of thing. She focuses, though, on skincare brands you can find at Target, Walmart, and sometimes, sometimes, even at the dollar store.

Dupe culture goes way beyond skincare, of course. You'll see recommendations for faux designer handbags, sneakers, cookware, furniture that look like, well, versions of something more expensive. And people are proud, even excited, to own them. Chantal Fernandez is a feature writer for The Cut, where she's covered the excitement around dupes and their growth. She joins us now to identify some of the most popular copycat retailers out there.

Quince, I'm looking at you. And why these companies and products have generated such buzz. Chantal Fernandez, welcome to Business Wars. Thank you, David. Thank you for having me. Where did this dupes concept come from? I mean, I can remember going to New York for the first time and seeing knockoffs of Rolex watches and that kind of thing. This is different from business.

the kind of 100% copycats, which use the same brands. We're talking about things that are so closely similar, what in, in function that you can get them for a lot cheaper, right?

Yes, and they're not pretending to be the authentic version, which I think is the difference with counterfeits. There isn't a Chanel logo on the bag. It's not advertising itself as such. But the design and the function is mimicking another more expensive popular product. And also, especially in the United States, there's very few protections around fashion design attributes because they're sort of considered functional and you can't trademark them in the same way that you could

a water bottle or something else like it. And dupe is a newer sort of

internet word for this, but this has been a part of retail and, you know, fashion in particular for decades and decades. You know, I recently published a book about Victoria's Secret, which was owned by The Limited. And that is a mall retailer that in the 80s was very successful, you know, copying from the runways in Europe or from other retailers. You know, this has been around forever, but it's become even more popular, I would say, since the pandemic. Yeah.

Yeah, very interesting stuff. At the same time, I think there is this new aspect of the copycat culture because it used to be that if you had a copycat or used a copycat or paid less for something, an off-brand, it had a kind of negative sort of connotation. And now it's like you go online and people are really embracing these less expensive alternatives. Yes, it's like a point of pride that you were able to find a similar product online.

at a lower price. And maybe I think there's more awareness now that a brand name can increase the price of something sort of arbitrarily. You know, we could debate whether that's true or not, but that certainly happens in some categories from some brands. And so the idea that you've sort of saved yourself some money, but gotten the same

type of item that's just as good or was maybe made from the same factory even, which is a way that some of these companies promote these dupes, it feels very satisfying. Like you found a deal. Everyone loves a deal. I guess that's true. Now, I can imagine that the younger demographic is mostly leading the charge on this trend, or is that true or fair? I think there's a connection between

to TikTok and influencer culture. You know, I think some of the best or most popular dupes come from some no-name Amazon or Shein seller that it would be hard to find maybe on your own, but you find a Reddit thread or you find a TikTok influencer who says, oh, these are just as good or even better than this anthropology dress and I recommend it. So I think I

How exposed you are to influencer culture helps your being open-minded to this. Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe we can hear Nina Poole once again. For those who don't know, she's an influencer, blew up online identifying and ranking the best affordable beauty dupes. And I think she has something like 4.6 million followers on TikTok. Let's listen to Nina Poole and how she does her thing. I share the things that I actually use. I find you dupes for things that you use, okay? Okay.

We compare products. We find the cheaper alternative because we have no money. And if you have money, that's great. And you don't want to spend it, you're welcome here too.

Yeah, I think that's sort of critical there. If you got your money, you're welcome here, too. And I'm wondering if because these are lower priced items, that it's a more accessible world for influencers and their followers. What do you think? I have found that when people buy something that they know they could have spent more money buying a version of it elsewhere, their expectations are a little bit lower.

And they're more easily satisfied. And I think some influencers, like it seems Nina, have a better reputation for sourcing those dupes. So maybe they're not...

as connected with the name brands and therefore have more authority in that kind of alternative product space. I want to ask you about the rise of the queen of dupes. You know the one, Quince. There's this uber popular website called Quince, and I know you've reported about that in some detail. Could you say more about Quince?

Quince is a company that's fairly new, started right before the pandemic and has exploded in growth. They're known for their cashmere sweaters, but they sell lab-grown diamond earrings and supplements and couches and baby clothes. It runs the gamut. I wrote about it because it's a very popular brand with our readers. And what's different about Quince is that every item they have that they list is

has an explicit comparison point for another brand. Oh, interesting. So that separates it from like, say, AliExpress or some of these other online super discount retailers. Yes. Like if you're on Amazon or Shein, it doesn't say...

You could get this dress at J.Crew at a higher price. But at Quince, it's all explicitly listed out. So you know exactly what the dupe is meant to be duplicating. And it's been a very effective strategy. And they've also just been very shrewd about choosing which products to

To copy, for example, they have a great reputation in the sweaters specifically for duping these Jenny Kane sweaters, which is a brand that is not that well known unless maybe you're following certain media publications. It's a women's California sort of upscale brand.

kind of quiet luxury cashmere and home goods brand. The sweaters are, you know, 400, 500. Oh, wow. So it's not, it's not like Hermes, but it's, it's in that middle space. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's not cheap, but Quince realized that a lot of women wanted those sweaters, didn't want to pay that price and replicated the style and shape and made a great business out of it. I,

I'm sitting here shaking my head thinking, how did they get away with this without getting mountains of cease and desist letters, right? I mean, I think they are getting some pushback in the background. And they have been sued by Yeti and Uggs, which I think are makers who have a more claim on their design of their products. But again, in fashion, it's really tricky. You can't trademark something.

cashmere sweater. How do they keep their prices so low then? They've just been very shrewd about, you know, the relationships that they have with factories and keeping their margins low. They don't have stores. And then the big thing is that they ship many or most of their products directly to customers from their factories in Asia, which allows them to bypass some customs and duties on the way in.

and allows them to be more flexible with their inventory. So what about Quince's competition? I'm thinking about the online retailers, Taimou and Shein. What are some of the differences here? Yeah. Taimou and Shein are the ones that are more direct competitors and much bigger than Quince and I think have the potential to really disrupt Amazon and Macy's and sort of those other larger national retailers. So Shein has much more influence in the fashion market in the United States, but

But it's a brand that I think is not quite as mysterious at this point to our readers, which is why I wanted to dive into Quince because it feels more upscale than shopping on Shein. Shein can sometimes feel a little sketchy when you're on the website. The Quince website, the messaging, it all feels sort of like the direct-to-consumer slick branding that we've seen over the last decade. It feels like a Silicon Valley startup, even if the products are all coming from Asia or whatever.

but it feels very slick. Quince has like a very consistent aesthetic point of view. And I think really speaks to millennials who want, you know, floor to ceiling linen curtains and cashmere sweaters. You know, there's a very specific aesthetic that unites the items there. Whereas, um,

Sheehan and Timu, the product catalog is infinite feeling and isn't aesthetically organized around a certain idea. How much of a disruptor do you consider, say, Quint's to be when you think about the long haul? And one of the reasons I'm asking that is because right now we're having a real big moment when it comes to trade and tariffs, possibility of trade wars.

And I wonder if in a way we're going to see dupes at the heart of a lot of that back and forth. Yes, I think it has the potential to be there, especially thinking about this import model of small imports that fall under this $800 limit, which President Trump had foreseen.

has said that he wants to eliminate and briefly eliminated in February, but has reopened this sort of tariff loophole. So, for example, the increased tariffs that we've seen in the last couple of months on China do not apply to these items.

So it's an interesting, the loophole continues and it will be interesting to see if that's a temporary thing or if it does get closed in the way that has been threatened. But, you know, the retailers are used to this sort of

chaos. And they hop from country to country. If there's a loophole on China, then they'll start shipping their things out of Vietnam. They can move with what makes the most financial sense for them. Interesting. Interesting. The quince model, which is following the Sheehan model to a certain degree, could be very disruptive to retailers in the United States, not just because of the way they import

but also because of the way that they manage inventory, where they're able to scale up from smaller batches of items and test a product without having to order so many and then bring them in sort of one at a time to customers. I'm wondering how our newfound obsession with dupes reflects the economy at large. I mean, Nina Poole said in the clip that we heard earlier, talking about how we don't have any money. And those of you who do, you're welcome to listen in too.

But to the point, you know, you have rising inflation, higher costs of living. I'm wondering if this doesn't say something about the moment that we're in and what that might further say about whether or not we're done with luxury. We're ready for the age of affordability that, yeah, we love the lux. But at the same time, we're willing to compromise to get at least a taste of it.

If it can be cheap, cheap, cheap. Absolutely. And I think especially we're talking about discretionary items, right? So no one needs another t-shirt. Their closets are full. Certainly not me.

So when people are shopping for discretionary items like fashion and beauty, that price sensitivity goes even higher. You know, it's interesting, the pandemic, there was sort of a couple of different things happening. One was that apparel prices in the United States increased really significantly for the first time in decades because since the advent of fast fashion, you know, in the late 70s and 80s, and then it's grown to take over the market, you know, apparel prices relative to inflation had gone down.

And in the pandemic, there was a bit of a correction and people were at home more. They were not going to restaurants. They were spending more on items that they could order in. And that's when we saw the luxury market had

had a huge boom. You know, they had incredible growth, like unprecedented growth. These big companies like LVMH, Hermes, Kering that own the big luxury brands. And at the same time, they increased their prices radically, even more radically than, you know, the rest of the apparel market, like a Chanel bag before the pandemic and after the price doubled. So, you know, I think coming out of that period, there was more consumer frustration with these price increases and

And that has also fueled this sort of interest in dupes and kind of a jaded sense of what am I even getting with this brand name? Am I being just pushed to spend just for the sake of it? Yes. Am I being duped? Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Well, having said that, you've been awfully generous with your time. I wonder if there isn't a dupe or two that you might be you might feel comfortable sort of leaving us with some maybe something that would pay for us to check out. Yes. So I will admit I'm not a huge dupes person.

But there was one that I purchased a few years ago that comes recommended all the time, which is a Lululemon leggings dupe that's sold on Amazon from a brand like Crazy Yoga. And I have several of these Lululemon leggings and I just needed...

a backup one for when the laundry hadn't happened and I didn't want to spend the Lululemon price. And I got this dupe of the legging and it was great, honestly. Oh, wow. Will it last me as long as Lululemon? Maybe not, but it was helpful. Well, you've been really helpful helping us understand this whole dupe culture and all that flows from it. Chantal Fernandez is a feature writer at The Cut where she covers fashion, beauty, and business. And you can check out her reporting at The Cut.com.

Chantal, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me, David. Coming up, we're telling the story of Whole Foods, a story of both business success and how an idealistic founder made good on his dream of changing American food culture. It's also a story of what gets lost on the way to the top. Make sure to join us for the next episode of Business Wars. Business Wars.

From Wondery, this is episode three of Price Wars, the fall of the dollar stores for business wars. I'm your host, David Brown. Kelly Kyle produced this episode. Peter Arcuni is our senior interview producer. Our producer is Tristan Donovan. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Plews.

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