TikTok vs the U.S.A. | Trending Upwards | 1
32:01 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars TikTok vs. the USA early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's February 1st, 2023 in Washington, D.C., inside the Situation Room of the White House. United States Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin appears at satellite footage showing a small white dot flying over the state of Montana.

It's a Chinese spy balloon equipped with surveillance equipment, and it can be programmed to fly over specific targets. Relations between the US and China are already tense, and now China is brazenly violating US airspace. Austin wants to know where the balloon is headed. An army official grimaces and says that if it stays on its current trajectory, the balloon will fly directly over Malmstrom Air Force Base. There's a murmur around the room.

Malmstrom is one of three sites in the US that house the country's intercontinental ballistic missiles. These missiles can travel several thousand miles and are designed to deliver nuclear warheads. Intelligence about how these weapons are secured is not information the United States wants to get into the hands of a hostile nation. Austin asks how much time the Air Force would need to shoot the balloon down.

An Air Force general says they can have F-22 fighter jets airborne in a matter of minutes, but shooting down the balloon comes with serious risks. The balloon is 200 feet tall, the size of three school buses. Shooting it down would create a debris field with a seven-mile radius, at a minimum. A lot of civilians could be hurt. Austin nods. Nevertheless, they need to be prepared to take quick action if the president deems it necessary.

He wants flights at the airport in Billings grounded, and wants F-22 fighter jets scrambled, airborne and ready to shoot the balloon down at a moment's notice. But he also wants them to come up with alternative plans. He orders someone from NASA to continue to look along the balloon's projected path and find the safest place to shoot it down. Austin stands and says he'll brief the president, but everyone needs to be on their toes. This is a clear breach of US sovereignty by China.

they need to be prepared for further action. The advisors in the room are also aware that they can shoot down as many balloons as they want. But millions of Americans have the digital version of a spy balloon on their phones and are voluntarily allowing the Chinese government into their lives. They call it TikTok. They wonder when the U.S. government is going to stop that Chinese threat.

Need care for ED, hair loss, skin care, or other common health concerns? Amazon One Medical Pay-Per-Visit lets you quickly connect with a provider right from home. No insurance needed, no scheduling hassles, just straightforward, affordable health care when you want it.

Start a virtual visit anytime, 24-7. Their providers will create a personalized treatment plan, and if medication is right for you, get fast, free delivery through Amazon Pharmacy. Prime members can even save up to 92% on ED medications compared to competitors.

Quality care shouldn't be complicated or expensive. That's why they offer transparent pricing with a simple flat fee per visit. This is the kind of new thinking many folks have been hoping for, and with health care costs spiraling well, bottom line here, you can get care and meds for less with Amazon. Head to Amazon.com slash BWOM to learn more. A provider determines eligibility. Prices may vary.

With a Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Plus, no preset spending limit helps your purchasing power adapt to meet your business needs. Jorge Gaviria, founder of Masienda, reinvests his 2% cash back to help grow the business with new products. What could the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One do for your business? Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Spark Cash Plus. Terms and conditions apply.

From Wondery, I'm David Brown, and this is Business Wars. Since he was a child, Zhang Yiming has looked up to American entrepreneurs Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. In 2012, he founded a company called ByteDance. Within five years, the apps it developed were a huge hit in China. But Zhang wanted more. He wanted ByteDance to be a global success on the scale of Apple or Microsoft.

was an audacious goal. No Chinese-based app had ever found widespread success in the West, but in 2018, he found a way. ByteDance entered the US market with a video sharing app called TikTok.

Zhang set Instagram, Facebook and Snap in his sights, determined to make TikTok the top platform in the United States. But soon, TikTok was not just facing pushback from its business rivals, but from the United States government itself. In our new four-part series, we explore whether TikTok is a legitimate national security threat or a political pawn in a new Cold War.

This is Episode 1, Trending Upwards. In July 2019, a YouTube executive stands in a ballroom at the Anaheim Convention Center. She sips a beer and taps her foot along with the beat of a song, played by a DJ in the center of the room as she looks around the room, bored. YouTube's party is usually one of the hottest parties at VidCon, an annual convention for influencers and online marketers. But this party feels stuffy and middle-aged.

More like a party thrown by a pharmaceutical company than a hot platform. A brand manager sidles up next to her, munching on a salad in a plastic cup. Uh, no offense, but this party's kind of sad. Ugh, I feel ya. I hear TikTok's party is lit. Can you sneak out of here to come with me to check it out? I probably shouldn't. But as she says that, a caterer walks by with a tray of vegetable skewers.

The executive shakes her head. This is not fun party food. To hell with it. Let's go. You gotta know what the competition is up to, right? Totally. The two of them head outside and catch an Uber to a bowling alley two miles away. As the car approaches their destination, they see a line snaking around the block. They're mostly young, under 25, and diverse. They're a mixture of punk and geeky, boy next door and bad boy. Almost all of them have their phones out.

The executive looks at her friend, surprised. Are all of these people waiting to get into the TikTok party? The YouTube executive knew that ever since entering the market the year before, TikTok had been aggressively marketing itself. Ads were appearing across the major social media platforms like Facebook and Snap.

In 2019, TikTok is reportedly spending $3 million per day on advertising. Users jokingly said they were feeling harassed by the relentless ads for the goofy video site. But the YouTube executive hadn't given TikTok much thought as genuine competition. She'd believed they were wasting money on all this advertising.

For one, no Chinese app had ever truly taken hold in the West, and Xi and other executives had no reason to believe that TikTok would fare any better. For another reason, TikTok entered the US market by purchasing an American app called Musical.ly that allowed users to share videos of themselves lip-syncing. Musical.ly had millions of users, but they were predominantly pre-teens. Young users are notoriously fickle and frequently abandon apps.

At the time that TikTok purchased it, Musical.ly's growth had stagnated. So the industry belief was that TikTok paid a lot of money for an app that gave them a built-in audience but an audience that wasn't going to grow. But as she looks out the line of people waiting to get into TikTok's party, she has to admit that it seems like TikTok's approach is working. And that notion only gets worse as she steps out of the car.

Less than a minute after she's exited her Uber, a group of teens swarms past her and her friend and approaches a boy with floppy hair and glasses. They shriek that they love him and ask for his autograph. He happily obliges. As they walk down the line, groups of teens film choreographed dances. Others say hi to fellow creators and make promises to collaborate in the future. Others sing the song Old Town Road, which went viral on TikTok and launched the career of Lil Nas X.

The brand manager spots a creator he recognizes in the line. He excuses himself and tells the YouTube executive he just wants to say hi real quick. He's a big fan of that creator's work. The YouTube executive nods. She's not even inside the party, but the scene out front is more lively and more engaged than anything she saw at the YouTube party. TikTok has energy and is commanding the zeitgeist. She used to think TikTok was a flash in the pan, but it's a major competitor.

The YouTube executive isn't wrong. By 2019, users are leaving competitors like Facebook, and TikTok's growth is on the rise. But TikTok has a weakness that apps based out of Western countries don't. Duying, the Chinese version of TikTok, is forced to abide by strict Chinese censorship laws. ByteDance claims that TikTok, the international version of the app, does not follow the same censorship guidelines as it does within China.

But rumors circulate that TikTok's recommendation algorithm suppresses certain topics critical of the Chinese government. In September 2019, reporters at the Washington Post searched TikTok for the words "Hong Kong". Widespread anti-China protests are taking place throughout the city, but the search results show almost nothing about the unrest. It seems highly unlikely that no one is posting about the demonstrations that have embroiled the region for months.

And a few weeks later, a whistleblower leaks internal documents that prove that censorship suspicions are correct. And it's not just videos about the protests in Hong Kong that are being suppressed. The documents show that TikTok has instructed its moderators to restrict a wide swath of videos that discuss subjects critical of the Chinese government, no matter where the person is located.

This includes videos about the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre, when the government killed peaceful protesters, and also Tibetan independence from China. But it's not just topics the Chinese government objects to. Moderators are also instructed to restrict posts about independence movements more broadly, including Northern Ireland pushing to secede from England and the Republic of Chechnya from Russia.

The app is not deleting the videos, but setting them so that only the person who posted it can see it, not allowing the posts to be discovered by a broader audience. ByteDance puts out a statement claiming that the leaked guidelines show policies that were retired months before, and that they represent the site's early attempts at content moderation. The goal, they argue, was not to censor, but to limit hate speech and misinformation.

They say that they now use a more delicate touch, including hiring local moderators to implement policies that are appropriate in the country they're located in. But their statement does little to appease concerns. Critics are quick to argue that these documents prove that ByteDance, TikTok's parent company, is promoting the Chinese government's interests overseas. This isn't just a business venture by an ambitious Chinese entrepreneur.

This is the Chinese government trying to exercise soft power over the American public. And the suspicion that these leaked documents foster gives TikTok's rivals like Facebook and Snap a powerful tool to wield against the app. In October 2019, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg appears at Georgetown University.

He's been invited to speak about free speech in the era of social media and the line between content moderation and censorship. The co-founder of the Georgetown Technology Policy Initiative introduces Zuckerberg to a packed room. After outlining the challenges of overseeing a technology that is no longer a novelty, but a central part of millions of people's lives, she welcomed Zuckerberg to the dais.

Zuckerberg is dressed in a plain black long-sleeved shirt. His light brown hair is propped into a tight Julius Caesar cut. Despite being in his late 30s, he doesn't look much older than the college students filling the room. Once the applause dies down, Zuckerberg begins.

He talks about how giving people a voice has been key to some of the most revolutionary moments in history and how Facebook is part of that tradition. We see movements like Black Lives Matter and Me Too spread and go viral on Facebook. The hashtag Black Lives Matter was actually mentioned for the first time on Facebook. And this just wouldn't have been possible in the same way before. About three quarters of the way through his speech...

He warns that this era of free speech may not last. A decade ago, almost all of the major internet platforms were American. Today, six of the top ten are Chinese. And we're beginning to see this in social media too. While our services like WhatsApp are used by protesters and activists,

And then he pauses and asks the audience a simple question. Is that the internet that we want? To the Americans who are flocking to TikTok, the answer seems to be yes. But the U.S. government isn't convinced.

What makes a leader? It's a tough question, but one thing's for sure. A true leader leads by example. And a true leader takes risks, too. They plunge into life with determination. For those who lead by example and approach life with a palpable passion, there's the Range Rover Sport. Sophisticated refinement meets visceral power in the Range Rover Sport, a new dimension of sporting luxury.

With their adaptive off-road cruise control, you can monitor ground conditions and acclimate to the present terrain. Plus, adaptive dynamics reduces unwanted body movements to deliver smooth and composed handling. Build your Range Rover Sport at LandRoverUSA.com. Visit LandRoverUSA.com to configure your Range Rover Sport. Explore the Range Rover Sport at LandRoverUSA.com.

You sign up for something, forget about it after the trial period ends, then you're charged. Month after month after month. The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. In fact, 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month.

Thanks to Rocket Money, you can see all your subscriptions in one place and cancel the ones you're not using anymore. Now, boom, you're saving more money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash wondery today. That's rocketmoney.com slash wondery. rocketmoney.com slash wondery. October 2019.

While Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg is in Washington, D.C., he doesn't just give a speech at Georgetown University. He also meets with several lawmakers, including President Donald Trump. A top item on Zuckerberg's agenda during his meetings is to warn politicians about the danger of the rise of Chinese tech companies. In several of the meetings, he mentions that TikTok specifically is a threat.

Shortly after Mark Zuckerberg's visit to D.C., several lawmakers on both sides of the aisle start expressing concern about TikTok. Late in October, Democratic Senator Chuck Schumer and Republican Senator Tom Cotton write a letter to the Director of National Intelligence, urging him to investigate TikTok as a national security threat. They highlight both the app's data collection procedures and the company's censorship policies as potential issues.

In response, TikTok posts an update to their company blog. They assure users that Americans' data is stored on servers located in the United States and that this data is not subject to Chinese law. They also reiterate that the Chinese government does not dictate what can and cannot be shown on the American app. According to TikTok, there's no threat to American national security.

But on November 1st, 2019, the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States opens up an investigation into TikTok's acquisition of Musical.ly back in 2017. One of the committee's jobs is to assess whether the sale of a US-based company to a foreign company endangers national security. If they deem that there is a credible threat, they could recommend that the president ban the app. But the committee's investigation takes time to complete.

Meanwhile, the anti-TikTok sentiment amongst government officials is gaining steam. The United States Navy decides not to take any chances. They ban service members from installing the app on their phones. And on March 12, 2020, Republican Senators Josh Hawley and Rick Scott introduce a bill that would ban the app from any device issued by the United States government. But the next day, on March 13th,

President Trump issues a nationwide emergency due to the COVID-19 virus. And on March 15th, the New York City public school system shuts down and the state of Ohio calls for restaurants and bars to close in an effort to contain the spread. In the wake of the COVID emergency, Senators Hawley and Scott table their bill. There are more pressing issues for the Senate to deal with.

Soon, mandated lockdowns spread across the country. People pivot to working from home and attend school by Zoom. Sports events, concerts, and parties are all canceled. And the easiest way to entertain oneself while stuck at home is by staring at a screen. TikTok's popularity explodes. The algorithm keeps a steady feed of amusing videos in front of viewers, and it also provides other opportunities to pass the time as a family.

Teens rope their parents, grandparents, and siblings into making videos together. By the end of April, the app surpasses 2 billion users worldwide. Seeing the surge in popularity, TikTok hires 1,000 more U.S.-based staff members. And it's not just programmers and marketing experts. In spring 2020, TikTok's head of U.S. policy, Michael Beckerman, logs on to Zoom.

Beckerman was brought on in February with the express purpose of ramping up the company's lobbying efforts. They're on track to hire 15 new lobbyists, hoping their connections in Washington will help change the company's reputation among American politicians. And it's Beckerman's job to make sure each new hire understands how to pitch TikTok when talking to lawmakers. Beckerman checks the time and size. The lobbyist he's meeting with is late, and Beckerman has a busy schedule.

Finally, the computer dings and the lobbyist appears on screen. His hair is shaggy, but neatly combed, and he wears a jacket and tie. Beckerman gets right to the point. Bottom line, there's a lot of misinformation about TikTok floating around Washington. It's our job to correct it. And some of that misinformation is about how connected it is to China? Absolutely.

When you go into these meetings, you want to emphasize that TikTok has an American CEO and many of the people in leadership roles in key areas like safety and security are based in the United States. The lobbyist jots notes down on a legal pad. Got it.

And if they bring up the concerns that American data could be provided to the Chinese government, how do you want me to counter that? Well, first make clear that American data is stored on American servers and that the Chinese government has never asked TikTok to turn over data, but also emphasize that TikTok is an entertainment app. The most popular videos are made by a teenager in Connecticut who likes to dance in her living room. This is not an app used by people generally targeted for government surveillance.

I wonder if we should really lean into that. Unlike other social media platforms, TikTok is fun, it's uplifting. We could share videos of people talking about Tiger King. Yeah, I love it. Okay, so here's your talking points. TikTok is American, it's fun, and most importantly, it's harmless. Okay, I think I'm all set. I'll let you know how my first round of meetings on the Hill goes and what kind of feedback I'm getting.

Beckerman thanks the lobbyist and logs off. He has a good feeling about the angle of pitching TikTok. With a COVID pandemic raging, America needs TikTok. But soon, the tenor of what's going viral on TikTok changes. In late May 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, is murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Floyd's death kicks off a wave of protests around the country.

People march against police brutality and demand the officers responsible for Floyd's death are held accountable. The hashtag Black Lives Matter trends on TikTok, garnering 4.9 billion views. Videos pour in of people calling for change and mourning Floyd's death.

TikTok publicly supports the trend. General Manager Vanessa Pappas gives a statement acknowledging the pain and anguish being expressed on the app.

She says that now more than ever, TikTok stands with its Black community. Some see the statement as clearly intended to distance the TikTok of today from the TikTok that was caught censoring posts about independence movements last year. Later in June, President Donald Trump announces that he's going to hold his first in-person campaign rally since the COVID lockdown started in March. It will be held on June 19th in Tulsa, Oklahoma. There is immediate uproar.

Known as Juneteenth, June 19th is the anniversary of when the Emancipation Proclamation was enforced in Texas, officially ending slavery in the United States. And in 1921, a white mob enacted a race massacre, killing hundreds of black residents in Tulsa. For Donald Trump to hold a rally in that city on that day, while the country is still reeling from George Floyd's death,

feels deliberately incendiary to some, and TikTok users take to the app to express their outrage. In Iowa, 51-year-old Mary Jo Lopp is lying on her couch late on June 11, 2020, scrolling on TikTok. It seems like her entire feed is talking about Trump's rally. One poster notes that Trump is offering two free tickets to supporters. Lopp gets an idea. This past year, she's been getting involved in politics.

When South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg was running for president in the Democratic primaries earlier in the year, Lopp volunteered at some of his rallies in Iowa. She knows that the point of a politician's rally is to generate good visuals and collect supporter information. Lopp thinks there might be a way to use those two goals against the Trump campaign. She goes on to Trump's website and confirms her suspicions. She heads to her kitchen, where the lighting is better, runs a hand through her hair and starts to record a video.

She quickly shares that Trump is holding a rally on June 19th in Tulsa. In Tulsa, Oklahoma. Now, if you don't know why that's a big deal, I want you to Google two phrases, Juneteenth and Black Wall Street. You'll find out why people are really upset about this. Then she mentions that to get tickets to the rally, all you have to do is provide your phone number.

There's no other vetting involved, no fees to pay. And this leads to Lopp's call to action. So I recommend all of those of us that want to see this 19,000 seat auditorium barely filled or completely empty, go reserve tickets now and leave him standing there alone on the stage. What do you say? She gives the camera a thumbs up and stops recording. She adds the hashtag BLM and posts it. She doesn't think much more about it. Who knows if the algorithm will spread her message.

As you write your life story, you're far from finished. Are you looking to close the book on your job? Maybe turn a page in your career? Be continued at the Georgetown University School of Continuing Studies. Our professional master's degrees and certificates are designed to meet you where you are and take you where you want to go. As you write your life story, you're far from finished. Are you looking to close the book on your job? Maybe turn a page in your career?

At Georgetown SCS, the learning never stops, and neither do you. Write your next chapter. Be continued at scs.georgetown.edu slash podcast.

Behind those cozy nights at home, thousands of employees at BP go to work every day. People producing more U.S. natural gas. People building grid-scale solar capacity. People turning landfill waste gas into pipeline-quality renewable natural gas. And people delivering all of that power where it's needed. They're part of the more than 300,000 jobs BP supports across the country. Learn more at BP.com slash investinginamerica.

When Mary Jo Lopp wakes up on June 12, 2020, she checks her TikTok. The video she posted the night before encouraging people to register for tickets to Donald Trump's Tulsa rally has blown up. She has millions of views and over half a million likes. Users are latching onto the idea, and it's spreading. The community of K-pop fans on the site in particular share it far and wide.

In deference to the outcry about the date of his rally, the Trump campaign pushes the event back a day so it will no longer take place on Juneteenth. But the concession doesn't stop the efforts to ensure it's a rally full of empty seats in Iowa. Mary Jo Lopp watches the message spread with amusement and pride. She's glad that the kids are running with the idea, but she's not sure how much effect it will actually have.

So when the Trump campaign announces that a million tickets have been reserved and they're setting up an overflow area, Lopp assumes that her idea was a bust. From her analysis of the comments on her original video, she thinks at least 17,000 fake tickets have been reserved. But with a million tickets reserved, surely there will be enough real people registered to fill the 19,000-seat venue.

Lopp spends most of the day of the rally at a birthday party for one of her granddaughters. She keeps her phone in her purse, focusing on spending time with her family. But that evening, back at home, Lopp checks her notifications. A friend of hers has tagged her on Facebook. The friend notes that she's watching Trump's rally and there are a lot of empty seats. She asks Lopp if she did this. Lopp goes online and looks at the footage herself.

When the video starts to play, Lopp lets out a laugh. The Trump campaign may have given away a million tickets, but the seats aren't even half full. There are rows and rows of empty blue seats. She records another video. She can't hide how pleased she is.

What did you guys do? Like, seriously? Are you kidding me right now? She holds a beat and then gets earnest. To those of you that are in your 20s and teens, to those of you that aren't even old enough to vote yet, remember this moment. Remember this feeling. She implores her viewers to stay empowered, to keep speaking up, and then logs off with a smile. The final attendee count comes in at 6,200, well short of the 19,000-seat capacity.

The Trump campaign claims the empty seats are the results of protesters preventing supporters from entering the arena. But reporters on the ground say that protests were minimal and police officers confirmed that no one was denied entry. The campaign's explanation does not gain traction. On Twitter and other social media sites, word spreads that a bunch of teenagers online embarrassed the President of the United States, according to administration officials.

The rally fiasco puts TikTok on Trump's radar, and he does not like what he sees. In mid-July, roughly a month after the Tulsa rally, Trump assembles his cabinet. Top of the agenda is TikTok. Deputy National Security Advisor Matt Pottinger opens the conversation with an overview. He outlines the way TikTok could be considered a threat to national security.

The first concern is that as a Chinese-owned company, ByteDance could be compelled by the Chinese government to hand over the data of American users. That data could then be used to blackmail Americans or recruit them into espionage. The second is through its ability to push Chinese interests via its recommendation algorithm. There's concern that the app could be used to spread misinformation and meddle in elections. When Potager finishes, the cabinet briefly discusses the matter.

There is near-unanimous agreement that TikTok is a threat. The question is, what to do about it? Pottinger lays out the options. They can wait for the Committee for Foreign Investment in the United States to finish its investigation and see what they recommend. They can require TikTok to partner with an American company that hosts all its servers in the US. That would help prevent TikTok from sharing American user data with the Chinese government.

The third option is to issue a blanket ban of the app, like the Indian government did. There is debate around the table. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin advocates for the partnering with an American company solution. Others point out that banning the app will run into legality questions. TikTok's lawyers will surely argue that this is a violation of the First Amendment, and they'd have a compelling case. But the decision is ultimately up to President Trump.

After some deliberation, Trump makes his choice. On August 1st, 2020, ByteDance CEO Zhang Yiming is in his office in Beijing, China. It's the middle of the day, but Zhang is preparing to go to bed. Zhang has taken to keeping U.S. hours. An email alert pops up. A friend has sent him a link to an interview with Trump. Zhang opens it up. On board Air Force One, the president of the United States has announced that he's banning TikTok.

When a reporter asks how he's going to do that, he shrugs and says that he has the authority to do it and he'll do it by executive order or another way. Zhang springs into action. He gets on the phone and starts calling trusted advisors and investors. They need to get ahead of this. Trump hasn't issued the order yet, and the American president can be fickle.

Chang is going to do everything in his power to stop this ban. He worked hard to make TikTok a success in the United States. The company has hired 1,000 US-based staff members in 2020 alone. They funded a billion-dollar Creators Fund that helps to foster US-based creators. They've spent billions on advertising. There are approximately 100 million TikTok users in America.

He's not going to cede the U.S. market without a fight, even if he has to take on one of the world's superpowers. If you like Business Wars, you can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

From Wondery, this is episode one of TikTok versus the USA for Business Wars. A quick note about recreations you've been hearing. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said. Those scenes are dramatizations, but they're based on historical research. Now, if you'd like to read more, we recommend TikTok Boom by Chris Stokel Walker and How TikTok Became a Diplomatic Crisis by Alex W. Palmer, originally published in the New York Times Magazine.

I'm your host, David Brown. Austin Rackless wrote this story. Our producers are Tristan Donovan and Grant Rutter. Sound design by Josh Morales. Voice acting by Chloe Elmore. Fact-checking by Gabrielle Jolet. Our managing producer is Desi Blalock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Plews. Our senior producers are Emily Frost and Dave Schilling. Karen Lowe is our producer emeritus. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marsha Louis for Wondery.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of reclaiming and feel like

they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to episodes everywhere on February 18th