Spite Is The Greatest Motivator with Watch Duty founder John Mills
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It's crazy. I'm counting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Just in my eyeshot, I can see six aircraft battling the flames. When the wildfires erupted in Los Angeles on January 7, 2025, people were frantic.

We didn't know where to get information. We didn't know if or when we had to evacuate. At the beginning, we got information through sort of an informal whisper network. Did you hear what we'd say to each other? Then we found WatchDuty. This one magical, elegant app told us everything we needed to know. And it was up to date.

And it was accurate. And we all had it. We checked it constantly. It was a lifeline, literally. Evacuation orders, fire perimeters, and wind directions, all of it faster and clearer than any government site or news outlet. And we owe it all to tech entrepreneur John Mills.

John coded WatchDuty himself to help his community after a series of deadly fires came close to destroying his own home in Northern California. Today, the app serves millions of people. It operates in multiple states and relies on scores of trained volunteers who gather data from radio scanners and other sources to get the information out.

The app has skyrocketed in popularity, and John has no intention of selling it, because the value, as he explains it, is bigger than any paycheck. We live in a world where too many put themselves before others. So how can we be more like John Mills? How can we inspire more people to serve those who serve others? I think John may have the answer. This is a bit of optimism.

John, thank you so, so much for doing this. I know that your life has been extremely busy. How did you find yourself in this position where all of us in Los Angeles were glued to your app more than anything else? Why you and how do you find yourself here now? Why me? Well, they say that luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparedness. And I have the unique opportunity to be able to do this with my life and dedicate my life to this work.

I've been through a couple of pretty close calls here on my ranch. Fires come very close to me. One was a 50,000 acre fire that ended about a quarter mile from my property. Another one was a quarter mile away in the other direction. That was another fire that I wasn't alerted about. The helicopters were how I knew there was a fire, not because anybody told me. And so- So the world is burning outside of your home and you find out about it because you see a fire helicopter fly over you. Yeah, that's how you get alerted, yeah.

Yeah, that's a good motivation to try and want to do something. Or at least, okay, but hold on, hold on. That's a motivation for a lot of people to complain. That's a motivation for a lot of people to get angry. That's a motivation for a lot of people to yell at their mayor or congressman or whoever. You then went and built an app to give yourself the information you needed. I don't know. It felt like it would be more fun, you know?

You're an engineer, right? I'm an engineer and a product person. Yes. I'm trying to understand how you found yourself in this situation. This is what the authorities, what the governments, what the local government is supposed to provide. Aren't they supposed to provide us the information we need to stay safe and know what's going on? You would think so. That's what I mean by why you. It shouldn't have to be you.

That is correct. My friends are joking. I just had an article about me, like the Hollywood Reporter, and I set up building this out of spite. And they sent me the episode of Larry David, who makes the spite story. So spite is like the coffee guy next door. You know, I mean, spite's a powerful motivator. I mean, really, I do it out of love, but also just out of disdain for like this lack of

good technology in the government, right? They still call it IT, right? It's kind of like a derogatory term, like the guy who fixes your printer, you know what I mean? Rather than actual like serious infrastructure that has held up the internet or held up cell towers, like this is critical infrastructure that must exist. And so I just knew they weren't going to do it. And I could just complain on the internet, but that would have been boring. Yeah. And I think people have to understand that the LA fires were not, this is not your first rodeo.

Like WatchDuty is already, dare I say, an essential app in a lot of other places. Is that fair? Yeah, we started in just Lake Sonoma, Napa County is where I live in Sonoma about 2021 is when I first launched it. And since then, I mean, I'm in one in every two or three phones in most counties in Northern California already who experienced fire, right? We have mass adoptions.

throughout these areas. And there's been some pretty fast moving wind, drip and fires and everybody knows. And unfortunately, we didn't have enough adoption in LA until now. And why does yours work? Putting the tech aside that the tech works, why does it work? Because you're basically consolidating information that comes from

a lot of other places that is fairly accurate and fairly up to date. That's actually the easy part, right? So as a technologist, the challenge isn't to go and just scrape all these government websites and to make a beautiful product and package, etc. Like people know how to do that, right? Like Silicon Valley is very good at getting your attention and keeping it making sure you doom scroll endlessly and then buy a bunch of random stuff that you don't need, right? Like it's very good at that. But

The magic is actually in the people. And what I mean by the people are these radio operators and reporters who are listening to fire scanners constantly. So those folks in real time are hearing everything and disseminating that information across the application via push notifications.

So that newsfeed is coming from human beings who are spending their days and nights hearing the fire ground. And that's what the magic actually is. There's nothing else to it. Anyone could have done what I did. The hard part was to find these people who were bound by their own sheer

sheer will and the desire to help people. And so that was the really key insight here. That's the data that's missing. It begs two questions. A, tech is obsessed with AI and AI seems to be the answer to absolutely everything. And yet you chose to go human. Why human and not automation? Well,

Well, in my opinion, AI is unable to do this job right now. It's just not there yet. That might be a reality in the future. But we do use some AI and we use that to help do signals and noise processing, right? So we do have a lot of AI that are scraping and scanning government websites that are trying to interpret random things and they feed that information into Slack.

where the human beings were able to see it and interpret it. So to answer your question shortly, I don't think it's ready yet. And then finally, like, even if it was ready, I would be concerned about mistakes being made. And I just don't like that idea right now. It's life and safety. You know, this isn't like a...

silly chatbot helping you write a paper or something, right? This is like, do I run east or west when I leave my house or not? It's a little bit too dangerous in my opinion. Yeah. It's a little bit like autopilot, right? Which is, I think every single one of us is fine with computers helping pilots fly the plane. But at the end of the day, we like the idea that there's two pilots sitting there evaluating the automation. We trust people sometimes more than we trust computers, which I think is a good thing.

And so Silicon Valley very much is about a business model, an IPO, giving everybody equity to get people to work hard, to get to that quote unquote liquidity event that everybody's obsessed with. And yet you are a not-for-profit who the people who work with you so hard are volunteers. What was it about starting a not-for-profit versus the traditional Silicon Valley route? And then how did you get the people to sign up?

So we do have some paid staff, obviously, like any nonprofit does. We had zero for the first 18 months. It was just a bunch of volunteers. So let's start there, right? So these radio operators were already doing this job on Facebook and Twitter, right? The first really big mega fire was the Valley Fire, I think 2015 or so. And then we had the tubs in 2017 and Paradise was either 18 or 19, I believe. And so we've had these series of events that have driven these radio reporters to start putting this information out on Facebook and Twitter.

And they were doing this for free anyway, right? Some had, you know, just, just concerned citizens. Correct. And again, some were ex and active retired firefighters and all different types of people. It's kind of all over, all over the board. So they were already doing a nonprofit, right? Like some of them had, you know, co-file links to buy them $5 cup of coffee, but they were doing this because they

it's a hobby, right? Like why do Wikipedia do this for free, right? Like why are there like Redditors who are like avid geeks about keeping their subreddit community organized and clean? It's like, it's in their hearts to do this. And so taking that idea, like,

Of course they want to do a nonprofit. It's in their heart to do it that way. And so for me, like on a very personal level, I understand why they do that. I feel their pain. This shouldn't be for sale. This can't stop, right? Maybe one day the government will do it and we'll stop. A nonprofit's job should be to finish its job and delete itself. That would be ideal, right? The program finishes running and then it gets deleted. But unfortunately, we're

We're in a growing industry, as my friends like to remind me. Yeah, yeah. What can we do for you? What does Watch Duty need? What do you need from us? How can we help? How do we support you? Well, the community is supporting us. I mean, it's amazing to get such amounts of funding in such a short period of time. And obviously, donations are super important to keep our operation running. It's hard to ask because...

Right now, the relief efforts are going to take, you know, almost a decade. I mean, we still have towns around me that have not been rebuilt. And so part of it is challenging for me to ask for anything else rather than

and give money to direct relief because Watch Duty is a capital efficient business. We will continue to operate and not stop. We are in the business of bits, not atoms, right? Computers are cheap to operate, but rebuilding 12,000 homes and restoring lives that are lost is just not possible. I think the best thing to do is give money to direct relief efforts like directrelief.org and others who are on the ground helping.

This is why I love you. I ask you, how do we help you? And you ask us to give to other people. I mean, that's what I do, right? John, seriously, man, you bring me to tears. You bring me to tears. You're going to make me cry. I've had a fucking hard week, man. You okay? Yeah, I'll be all right. I've had a couple of hard ones, but you know, it's, it'll be all right eventually, you know? What happened?

I mean, you just have some days you're just so proud of what you're doing. And then you're just in the shower fucking crying because, you know, you know, people was running for their lives. You know, like it's just, it's, it's tough because I'm looking out my window and behind me is my forest and it's going to be overrun with fire again. And so it's not my turn right now, but it's going to be my turn again. And so it's just the cycle of life. I just, I just, I'm just coming to grips with it, you know?

You know, one of the weirdest experiences I had in this, all of this is two, two incredibly weird things that happened to me. One was as the evacuation zones got closer to us and we got very lucky, the wind changed direction and, but they came, they, they were creeping towards us, you know? And I, even though they didn't reach us, we didn't get to yellow. We were one zone away from yellow. I sort of, you start preparing and I walked around my house and I started saying thank you to my stuff, you know, like I, I went through this crazy gratitude, like,

One of my favorite paintings in the world that I've owned for years hanging on my wall. It's too big for me to put in a car. And I look at it and I said, thank you. Thank you so much for the joy. I'm going to cry. I just, I went through this crazy gratitude practice. You know, and it was just the, whether the stuff survived or didn't, I didn't have fear that I was going to lose it. I got to say thank you. You know, you hear this from people who lose loved ones.

And they say, I'm glad I was by their side to say goodbye. You know, they had cancer. We knew it was going to happen. I'm glad I was by their side. And there was some shit I didn't give a shit about. You know, I walked around and I'm like, I don't care about that. I don't care how much it costs. I care nothing about that. So that was one crazy experience. And I realized I don't need a lot of stuff, which was a beautiful thing to come to terms with. And the second thing, which is just a strange experience, which is...

watching your app, watching the wins. And I remember the wins changed direction. And I thought, God, thank you. I'm so grateful. And in the same moment, fully aware that somebody's watching the app going, oh no. And to have to reconcile that my good fortune is somebody else's ill fortune. And by the way, nobody wants their house to burn down to save somebody else's house that doesn't exist. And just the paradox of

that there's no winners in this, that my happiness and relief and sigh is somebody else's increased blood pressure and fear. The world is unfair. It is unfair. And that's what fire teaches you, man. It takes from everybody equally. And it's not fair. Yeah. You know, I remember the first time I evacuated, it was...

I was gone for eight days, I think. And after six days, I was just like, just burn already. I'm done. I'm just so stressed out. I'm up all night. There was no watch duty. I'm listening to radios. I'm just like, you know what, man, just get it over with. I was just done. I just really resigned. I resigned myself to the outcome. It was a strange, strange feeling. I hope the lessons are learned. And this is the shitty thing about people, right? Which is we forget.

And I remember September 11th, I lived in New York during September 11th. And for weeks, dare I say months, but definitely weeks after September 11th, yeah, I'll say months, New York was the most incredible city in the world. Crime disappeared. There was nothing. There was no crime. Somebody who might have mugged me a week before was holding a door open for me. And there was this shared hardship and we were there for each other.

And you see it now in LA, the insane outpouring of love. There's also idiots and looters and people who are raising the rents on their houses because they're assholes. Talking about ethics over money, you know? Like nobody's saying you can't make money, but my goodness, like raising rents, you know, anyway. But we'll forget. And New York went back to being New York. I remember being in the middle of it going, this is utopia and it's going to go away because we forget. We forget. And this is my fear, which is,

the people who are now struck by this well of emotion, I'm going to devote my life to service for how long? I hope forever, but for how long? This is why I like the disaster business because I see the best in people. I have a couple of friends in the industry before I got here and I always wondered, I was like, "How do you guys do this?" My friend is Jose Andres, his right-hand man. He's the one who lost his employees in Gaza twice.

His nickname is actually Doomsdaddy. I gave him that name. I mean, that guy has no pilot's license, has landed multiple planes. He's in tornadoes, hurricanes. He lives it, and he feels more alive at the edge of death than anyone else I've ever met in my entire life. And he embodies this spirit, you know, and he sees the best in it. And now that I'm here, I understand why he does what he does, and I'm hooked. I'm an addict. Yeah.

And I see it. I've spent time with the military, with people who live these lives of service, who, as somebody said, when he described a life in service as my get rich slow plan. Everybody knows they're not doing it for the money. You know that when you sign up and you don't have to be like your friend, the doomsdaddy, to have that intensity. It's a shame that they call it disaster, right? Because the flip side of disaster is an inspiration and a joy and a fulfillment

like you cannot experience anywhere else. There's no company, there's no liquidity event, there's no client you can win. There's no game that you can top that will recreate the feeling of service for those who need it more than you. I very much agree. That's what the firefighters do, man.

But my heroes, I mean, these people, they're like no one else who will do whatever is right at all costs. And I've seen them risk their careers and their lives for the betterment of the world. And they get paid jack shit. And they are just above and beyond anyone else I've ever worked for. So it is not a boring group of people to be around. And that's just my favorite. I'm so enamored.

by who you are and what you stand for. I mean, you've had success as a technologist. You've had success in Silicon Valley. You've lived the movie life, the trope that a lot of technologists and startups go through. You've done it. I've met a lot of people who, as a result of selling their business or going public, whatever it is, they've made generational wealth. And if you ask them, what do you do now? They say, I'm an investor.

And I don't understand why people who've made generational wealth, their goal is to now make more money. And what I so appreciate about you is you've done that. You've made the money. And somebody says, what do you do? And you're a philanthropist. And you may invest, but you're a philanthropist that invests, not an investor that is a philanthropist. And I think that's really important. When I look at who you are and what you stand for,

What goes through my mind is, first of all, thank you. I mean, I used your app. You know, I checked it like a teenager looking at TikTok, you know, and I'm grateful. But at the end of the day, it's more the example of who you are and what you stand for

That I think is even more important than the app, because there's a lot of other problems that need to be solved, that good people who can afford to do it and do know how to do these things, and have already built a business and understand infrastructure and people and all of the things, even if they build it out of spite, we need more of you.

I mean, I'll take the compliment. Thank you. And I agree. And part of it is like, you know, I'm an operator, right? Through and through. So like, I can't just sit there and invest. It doesn't make sense to me. Like, I need to build things. I want my hands on equipment, machinery. And like, I had a choice. I could like, go get a yacht and travel the world and hang out with billionaires or go like fight the man and change the world, right? There's nothing more thrilling than this. It's an interesting conversation because all of those folks who made that money, they had the attitude to get there.

And something happens, and I don't know what it is. I mean, I have some ideas where it stops. And I guess what I'm trying to get at is what is it in your DNA that how do we replicate you? I mean, we both agree on two things. We both agree that you shouldn't have to do this. Government should be doing a better job of doing it and not you, number one. And we both agree there needs to be more of you. How do we raise a generation of people who, whether they achieve generational wealth or not,

that service is built into how they want to live a life and grow old. Yeah, I mean, something that really like I tell people that I run a nonprofit because I hate them. And what I really don't understand is like, if you're a really good operator, why would you give your money to philanthropists who don't know how to run a business?

Right. Like some of these nonprofits that I've seen, like the homeless industrial complex in San Francisco is like one thing that really upset me about 10 years ago when I was getting involved is like those nonprofits.

Those executive directors didn't actually know each other, right? Like the largest ones or the largest buildings don't ever meet. And it occurred to me one night walking home after this big event that I had thrown and I put these executive directors together and I realized they knew each other's names and didn't know each other. And I finally realized they're actually in competition with one another.

They do not want to solve the problem. And that right then and there, I was like, first of all, I'm done. I'm not working in the homeless industrial complex anymore until I can come back and make a difference. And then I realized that I'm not giving money to these people. They do not know. They are not good stewards of capital. So as an operator or an investor, why am I going to invest in a failing business? Show me the outcome, right? Where is it? I don't know where it is. So again, more spite, you know? Yeah.

But this is an important insight, which is, and I hate the term not-for-profit, right? That is a tax delineation. That is an IRS delineation on a form. Of course, they should be profitable. They just measure profit differently. So if your charity exists to rescue kittens out of trees, then I want to see that you're rescuing a lot of kittens out of a lot of trees. That is the profit, right? And so instead of calling them not-for-profit, we should call them for-impact.

And I want a metric to your point. You're right, which is whether it's homelessness or whether it's cancer, whatever it is, they're competing who will come to their gala as opposed to working together and trying to actually cure cancer. And you're right, which is it's the worst kind of corporate competition, which is trying to undermine each other rather than cooperate. There is no winner in charity. It doesn't like, oh, you win cancer charity. You're like, I think we said it best, which is,

They win when they go out of business because we don't need them anymore. That is the goal. And in the fire service, I've seen the same thing. I mean, there are a couple of community groups that are, you know, fire-wise, fire-safe groups. That's what they're called. And some of them are at odds with each other. And some of them even have their monthly meetings at the same time. So you have to pick one. It's the charity industrial complex. It's challenging. It's challenging. I do not like it. Okay. So let's take a step back. I'm a well-intentioned person. I have a wallet.

Volunteering is one option, but not everybody can do that. Sometimes we like to give financially. How do I know to give to you and not to somebody else who says all the right things to me and makes me feel pretty and invite me to the gala, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You and I are having a conversation saying it's nonsense. They compete with each other. They're not trying to solve the problem. All we're doing is telling people don't get involved.

So how do we get people to stay involved? How do we get people to know who to volunteer for and who to give to? I mean, it's a great question. It's something that I want to set out to solve, right? There's a couple of things going on here at WatchDuty. One of them is leaving a better blueprint behind, right? And so something we did this year in our annual report is it reads like a startup story.

monthly update from a founder. It does not read like a bunch of pretty pictures and a bunch of nonsense and maybe some video that is a tearjerker that gets you to open your purse. What I did is I tore down our metrics well beyond what the form 990 is, which is the nonprofit reporting form. And I really went deep. Here's how much we spend on an office.

Here's how much it costs to operate this thing. Here's how many dollars per page view it costs. And I really went whole hog at it and just started to go extraordinarily transparent.

Like no one ever does, whether you're a public or private company, you got to be crazy to do what we're doing. And we're just crazy enough to try and do that and hopefully open the door and show people that we are impactful and your money actually goes really far. So I think that's step one. That's almost an after fact though, right? Like you want to have more money come in and then show what you're doing is impactful, but

The obvious one is the reason I'm on this podcast, right? You and everyone and their mother and Paris Hilton are all talking about watch duty on TikTok, right? And Instagram. And so taking from Silicon Valley, that's what we call product market fit, right? Product led growth and product market fit. We delivered an incredible product and still deliver incredible product every day that people are constantly talking about. And so there's a couple of things that play here that really hit home. And when you're

hitting someone's mammalian brain of like, this is life and safety, it becomes very relevant and top of mind for you. And I think there's a confluence of events here that are allowing us to do what we're doing. You know, the podcast is called A Bit of Optimism. I brought you on here to inspire and to share who you are and the goodness that you're doing. But, you know, you're making me angry and I now am filled with spite and

as you say, Spite's a wonderful motivator because I'm literally going through a list of people who are incredibly smart. They're engineers, they're marketers, they're brilliant leaders, and they did it for their companies. They had brilliant market fit. They solved a problem. They became the gem in whatever industry they're in. They made their money and they're not doing what you're doing. And I'm angry. I'm so spiteful right now that-

Very talented people. And you said it right, which is well-intentioned people go into not-for-profit. They're full of why and they lack how, right? Lots of desire to do good, a lot of good intention, and it breaks down and politics show up and they don't have the product stuff. And then on the business side, you have a lot of product ingenuity. You have a lot of how, sometimes lacking the why. You're doing the thing that is the way a business and a charity should both work.

So I'm just very angry. So thank you very much for that. You're welcome. I talked to a friend who lost his house in the fires. It's all gone. There's the initial shock, and then there's a little bit of denial. And I think the bigger shock is still to come. He lived in the Palisades. And he was saying that he's worked really hard to accumulate a lot, which is how he could afford a house in the Palisades. Losing it all, as traumatic as it has been, it makes him realize that he has to change his life.

he realizes he now needs to say yes to being on the committees and he needs to say yes to being on the boards and he needs to take his incredible talent that helped him achieve what he's achieved and redirect it. And I think that's wonderful. The thing that upsets me is why does it take trauma and loss for us to want to devote our lives to service? If you go back to World War II, for example, right? There were more cases of young men who killed themselves because they didn't get drafted than those who did.

What happened to our society after the greatest generation? We went from greatest to boomer XYZ and alpha. There's not even a description of our generations anymore. If you didn't get shipped off to war, you bought a war bond to support the war effort. If you couldn't afford a war bond, you planted a war garden, which did practically nothing, but it made you feel like you were part of it and everybody was grateful that you were committing some sort of time and energy for the effort.

even if it was just ceremonial. What happened to a society where our instinct is not to give, our instinct is to take, our instinct is to become investors, not philanthropists? Yeah, I mean, I notice it too, obviously. And this country has definitely lost solidarity with our neighbors. I think that

consumerism is a big part of it. We started to understand marketing and psychology really well after the Second World War and started to sell consumerism and really use the things that we learned during war to unfortunately sell goods and services, really. And then, of course,

you know, bedroom community neighborhoods, moving out of city centers. And I think that was kind of painful. And I, and then I think the death nail for it really is how the internet has become a dirty place at times. You know, I think it's just like, I'm skipping ahead many generations here, but I think it was all just inevitability. And then it becomes so easy to reach people through their phones and have them doom scrolling and then have them be angry and then respond to people and fight on the internet. And it's just, it's just divisive. So I,

I wish I knew. I've seen it too, and I wish I had a better answer. I think we all wish we had an answer, right? What do you think? It's an interesting insight how we took the skills we learned from war. We took these skills that we had to learn, like fast manufacturing, which wasn't a thing until the war, and the brilliance of the assembly lines. We could churn out tanks and boats and planes like nobody's business.

You're right. We learned these skills in war, and then we applied them after that. At the end of the war, they all looked at Joseph Goebbels, this brilliant propagandist for the Nazis. They were so impressed by his ability for propaganda and to move populations to do things that they wanted, that the regime wanted. Edward Bernays saw what Joseph Goebbels did and was so impressed that

And he takes this thing that was called propaganda and he saw an opportunity, couldn't call it propaganda. So he renamed propaganda, public relations.

But I guess the question that I grapple with is what happened to the ethical underpinnings? We see a drug company that has a patent on an essential drug raise the price of that drug 1,000%, 1,500% because it helps them surpass their financial goals. Disgusting. And when we drag their CEOs in front of Congress to testify, they all say the same thing, which is, we followed the law. We didn't break the law, which is true. None of them broke the law. That is not illegal, but it is horribly unethical.

And the law is a lower standard than ethics. And I'm just curious, you know, it definitely changed where ethics were a thing. I mean, chivalry was a thing where your word was vital. And like this thing about ethics and chivalry, your word and honor, these words have, they're gone. Now it's just show me the metric. And if the metric is good, I'll do it. If it's not, I won't. Yeah, I think everyone is waiting for the hammer to drop, right, on WatchDuty being a nonprofit. I get that question all the time. And I'm just like,

I just look at that and I'm like, "That's just so boring." We've heard that story before. Who wants to hear that again? That's not what I want to leave behind. It just seems like we're in a generation of like, "If you can, it means you should."

and i just don't i don't like it like again your point like my word matters to me you know and i don't know why it's gone again i'm hoping we can find more examples of work like this and i leave a legacy behind of other people who want to do this and i give a road map and ways to do this easier because man the amount of people who want me to

you know, either convert or take their money or why are you a B Corp? You can still do this. And I'm like, this is not what's interesting to me. And they can't understand like, what is wrong with me? Did I have like some sort of dramatization? I just, I can't get over it. Like I don't need the money because I'm so filthy rich. That's just not, not the case. I put a million dollars of my own money into this company, right? Cause I just wanted to prove to myself it worked and now that it worked, it's making money. I'm finally taking a paycheck again as of January 1st, not much, but

you know, whatever, man, like money will come and go. Like this is a once in a generation thing. I really want to lead other people to this path and hopefully, again, leave the world a better place than we found it. Amen. Tell me an early specific childhood memory. I'm just very curious about you. Hmm.

Well, I mean, when I was really young, I was building with my father, which was always really fun for me. He's a woodworker. Actually, he's an IBM executive, but he had a woodshop and he grew up that way. His father was World War II. He went to war at age 17 or something. I lied about his age and went to the Pacific Theater. Became an engineer.

It's in my blood to build, right? We're builders. And so I was, you know, helping him restore anything that I could. I really just loved spending time doing that and in creating things out of nothing. I took that into computers as well, because there are times where he wouldn't want to help me or I was too young to use a power tool. So I would start hacking on computers. And so that's kind of how I got into this. Is there a specific one that stands out, a specific project you worked on with your dad, something that really stands out?

I remember one. My favorite class in middle school, I think, was called technology. It's really a woodworking class, mostly. And we had to build little air-powered robots. So it's like a little robot arm that has a bunch of syringes with air lines going to them. You can articulate the arms back and forth. And so I remember my dad helping me do this. And of course, I won because my dad built a lot of the damn thing. But it was super fun to get to like

make wood and things move, you know, because wood doesn't really move. If it does, it's breaking usually. So it was fun to like kind of build little toys and robotics and things like that and win the science fairs and whatever. I just feel like it's cheating. But anyway, whatever. I learned how to make really cool stuff with my father. What do you think it is about that memory of all the fun things and all the things you built with your dad? What do you think it is about that one that stands out that you want to talk about it right now? Man, I don't think these questions are coming. I don't know how to answer that one. I just...

You thought I was going to ask you the same questions as all the other TV shows. No, I did not, thank God. Again, I think I said it before. What was fun for me was reimagining wood in a different way.

Right. Wood is not supposed to move. And it was fun to be able to use these things to like prototype a moving object. It's just not something you normally would do. And I like mixing materials, which I do now a lot in my life. Software, hardware, machines, cars, computers. I like the part of the Matrix where the little kid is bending the spoon, you know, and he looks at Neo and it's like, you have to remember there is no spoon.

Right. None of this is real. And you can bend reality, you know. And so like these moments allowed me to realize I'm limited by my own beliefs. Right. And so I think that's what really got me to think bigger. I think that theme has repeated. You are inspiring us to reimagine. You're inspiring us to reimagine reality.

how to apply our brains to solve problems. You're asking us to reimagine how a charity works. You'll pay them real world salaries because you can. There's just no shareholder to extract profit for. And you're asking us to reimagine what a charity looks like. You don't have to have these four impact companies that have IPOs, but rather just keep building charities that pay really well and solve real problems. You're asking us to reimagine what a metric is, how to define profit. You're asking us to reimagine what it means to live a life worth living

If we follow your route, we're cheating. We're beating cancer. We're overcoming these challenges. We win because we're cheating, because we're using our talents in a different way. You've definitely given me a lot to think about, about how business, charity, all of this stuff

Yeah, I really like this idea of human potential. There's something so incredible about when you give people the conduit to do something that they're already doing, you can really harness that to be extraordinarily dangerously kinetic. And that's what we've done with all this potential energy from all these people.

And speaking of World War II, a story that I've been obsessed with since I was a kid is how we broke the Enigma. We weren't able to crack the German cryptographic machine, which was called the Enigma, for quite some time. And so the way that we got it was actually, again, same thing, idle human potential. And so we put out crossword puzzles in all the Allied newspapers and said, if you can break this puzzle, please email this to Bletchley Park outside of London in England. And

a bunch of people were able to break these things repeatedly. One of them, her name was Joan Clark, who became the first cryptographer. But we used all these people's

just like this mass crowd of intelligence and found the brightest people. And without her, we would never have, well, maybe never have defeated them, right? And it was a pretty incredible endeavor of the human condition and potential energy becoming very kinetic. And to your point about sort of how we reimagine, we reimagine how we can recruit, which is we put in the regular newspaper, these impossible crossword puzzles and

And if you could solve it, we wanted to talk to you. We didn't hold mass interviews and then try and take this test, take this personality test and we'll assess if you're, it was re-imagining even how to hire.

That's right. It didn't take convincing, right? Here's money, do this job. It's like, I'm going to do this anyway. This is who I am. I'm going to do the crossword puzzle anyway. I love a problem. I'm bored of the problems in the newspaper. Give me a more difficult problem because I like this stuff because it's fun. Put all those people in a room and see what happens. Here we go. And that's how we did it, right? And this is no different. We've done similar things before. It's just not how we think about, to your point, hiring and creating things. It always seems like...

specialized people who have degrees in whatever. I mean, we just proved that a lot of experts did not know what they were doing. Right? Very, very drastically. Go hire people who break codes. And that's what we do. Because what they didn't, they bring old thinking and old ways. That's right. And what people who have that natural ability, what they do is they bring new thinking, new ways, and they are unrestrained. They are unrestrained in their imagination. And this theme keeps coming up, which is re-imagining.

Let us raise a toast and let us raise a glass to those who serve others. And that true fulfillment in life, all of these people looking for joy and purpose, as you have learned, there is no greater joy and no greater sense of life purpose than to be in service to those who serve others. Absolutely. Cheers to them. All right, my friend. Be safe, be well, and let me know how I can serve you. I appreciate that. Thanks a lot. Thank you much, man.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenik.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company.

It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David Jha, and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudershan.