Charlie Kirk | Club Random
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to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. So you don't think any people are like born quote unquote in the wrong body? No, I don't. No? I think people might think they are. There's a book of the Bible I think you'd love. What? Song of Solomon. Song of Solomon. Cross me souls in that. Song of Solomon is all about sex. Charlie Kirk here.

I am here. Kirk, reporting for duty. That's what they call me. How are you? Nice to meet you. Thanks for having us. Us? Well, our duty. Or me. Is there someone with you? No. Thanks for having me. You're not expecting trouble, are you? Not quite. Any trouble with security? Unfortunately. You do? Yeah. Like what kind?

you know, security. Well, I'm sorry that you have to do that, but that's the price of fame. And boy, you're, you, I mean, man, you're everywhere. You like the new it? No, no, no. No, it's true. We have different jihadis that want to kill me. The purple haired jihadis, the woke guys. Well, they want to kill me. They want to kill me just as bad.

Oh, they really do. No, you've been very outspoken on the woke stuff. Oh, yes. I mean, and they, just the way within a religion, they hate their own apostates more. I would say they hate me more because I'm supposed to like get on the short bus to crazy town with them. And I won't. And yet I'm still a liberal and still like, you know, I mean, we probably could argue all day about Donald Trump and what he's doing, which I'm not down with.

But, you know, it's always the people who are closest who think, oh, gosh.

you shouldn't have, you're a traitor somehow. I was going to ask, is it because they thought you were one of them? I am one of them. They're not one of me. It's the liberals who have... So they've left you, not you left them. Well, I feel like there's... Liberal and woke are two completely different things. It was a theme of my last stand-up special that I just did a few months ago. And it's basically... I mean, it wasn't the whole special, of course, but it was a large part of it devoted to that, to proving that case, that, you know...

what liberals believe woke is something completely different. It's very often the opposite of it. You know, liberalism is let's live in a colorblind society. That's the goal. Woke's goal is we

We see race everywhere. Race obsession. Yes. Okay. So that's not liberal. You change. Liberal is there are two state solution. Woke is river to the sea. Okay. Those are, so just don't take my word and say you're that. You took this and took it to, you got off the F train, you fell asleep and you got off the 20 stops too far. And don't blame me for that. Drink? No, I'm good. Thank you. You don't drink? No. Or smoke pot?

and you're married and super Christian. We're going to go on great. This is going to just be perfect. But can I just ask, because I want to find out a lot about you, because you're obviously a super bright guy, but...

You do think that I have the right to live completely opposite than you do. I think you can get as drunk as you'd like. And you're that kind of an American, right? Yes, of course. You're not forcing your opinions as— I'm not here to say you can't. What are you talking about? No, okay. So you think pot should be legal? That's a complicated— Oh, boy. I have a very unpopular view on pot. You know, can I tell you my case on pot? Please do. It's not the—

that it might be causing or the fact that it might be hurting kids' brains, it's the smell. It's the stench that drives me crazy. Yeah, it's not hurting their brains. I mean, kids shouldn't do it. Of course, kids shouldn't. It definitely didn't hurt my brain. But let me ask, do you think that more teenagers are doing pot

or that before legalization or after legalization? Do you think usage rates are going up or down? I don't know the answer. Oh, you'll be fascinated by this because, you know, I'm not married, so I go out. So sometimes I'm out with like people who are a great deal younger than me

I don't know how they get in my group, but they do. And so I've been to sometimes parties like the Hollywood parties. And this is probably not most of America exactly this way, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's that different. And first of all, in this town, it's all run by like the Nepo babies. The Nepo babies, the trust fund kids, all these little funny two-year-old. The J.B. Pritzker types.

Well, no, no, I'm sure I know who you mean. The governor of Illinois inherited the Hyatt. Oh, sure. We invented Nepo baby out here. But yes, it's everywhere now, even on the Lakers.

Hey, that's real privilege there. You know you got some privilege if you can get. Well, okay. I don't want LeBron mad at me like he is at my friend Stephen A. But, I mean, that is, you know. But the point is that when you go out to these, I've been to these parties where, like, it's a bunch of 22-year-old kids and none of them are smoking pot. Why? They're on real drugs.

Pot's so like my generation. It's like I couldn't find pot at one of these parties. I was the only, they were asking me for it. The few kids who wanted it. They're all, they take this, they've got- Like psychedelics or mushrooms, LSD. Oh, ketamine, whatever. Oh, ketamine, that has some medicinal property, but not at a party. They're all, it's all ingested before they even leave the house.

So that's where the good news parents, your kids aren't on pot. Yeah, but they're on. Way worse, I think. They're on a big, big trip. So but do you think that since we've legalized less teenagers are doing like 13, 14, 15 year olds? Because that was always the argument, right? If we legalize it, less kids would do it. I don't know what 14 year olds are doing. No, I don't know the answer. I just. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

But we can agree that kids shouldn't. Oh, totally. But we also should be able to agree that we shouldn't force adults to organize their lives around what kids might get into. That's a good argument. I mean, do you think that it's— I mean, you're not against porn, are you? Well, I actually once struggled with porn. Thankfully, I'm free of that. But, I mean— How can you struggle with it? It's so easy. Well, it's—

You could grow addicted to it. I know. I was kidding. No, but I don't have that issue anymore, thankfully. But I would ask the question, though, do you think since the legalization of marijuana in L.A., it's made it a better or worse place to live? Or just it hasn't changed at all? It certainly hasn't changed my life. Okay.

I grow it right outside here. Do you think the quality of life has gone up or down? Well, I don't know, but that's not really the relevant question, is it? Even if there is a deleterious effect...

There is too many things we do, and we would not use that as a reason to prescribe our basic freedoms. Should people be able to do drugs on the street? No, definitely not on the street. So there are some limits. Of course there are limits, yes. And maybe of certain drugs, or certain drugs should be by prescription prescribed.

As we do with pharmaceutical drugs, you know. But certainly pot is more benign than alcohol. I mean, I could give you the stats on that. We all know that. Is it health food? No. I'm not crazy like some of my hippie friends are complaining.

trying to portray it as something that's actually good for your lungs. But I don't think it's, well, it's a trade-off. When you're an adult, you have the right to make trade-offs. Trade-offs is the essence of life. I'm going to have this piece of cake tonight and be a little fatter tomorrow, or I'm not going to do that and feel better tomorrow. And we all make those choices on a daily basis with everything.

Yes. Have I probably cut off some years of my life maybe with pot? Who knows? I may have increased them because it helped me. It made me, certainly made me richer. It made me better at my job, better at writing, better at a lot of things I like to do. So, you know, I might be living in a two-bedroom apartment in Van Nuys if it wasn't for pot and I'm probably going to live longer here. Or who knows how successful you could have been without it.

That's true, too. That is true, too. Do you think there's any merit to the argument that the pot has more THC and is more intense than it was 30, 40 years ago? It's so hard. I don't know. I hear these things. Oh, I hear those things, too. And I'm sure that's true because once it became as commercialized as it has, of course, you're going to try to maximize the potency of it.

just because the customer comes back, just like a restaurant is not interested in your health. They're interested in making the food as delicious as they can until you come back to that restaurant. But it's so hard for me to tell you because I've been smoking for 50 years and...

I'm different. Who knows what I was thinking? I remember when I first smoked, we would just sit in the car and laugh at nothing for an hour. That doesn't happen anymore. So my guess is the pot is stronger, but my resistance is weaker. Okay. Anyway, people think I'm some sort of giant pothead. I've always been very circumspect about my pot smoking. I mean, I don't smoke every day. The most I smoke is right here once a week.

I like to be in party mode when I'm with someone I'm getting to know. This is one of the joys of my life. And...

You know, I understand that it doesn't connect with some people or make some people paranoid or something. But other people, it's just, I mean, you know, some people like a scotch and some people like blah, blah, blah. And some people like complete sobriety. If that's your thing, that's fine. But to me, the most interesting place I can ever travel is inside my own mind. And drugs do help you get there. Is there...

Do you think all hard drugs should be illegal? Like heroin? Illegal? No. I mean, well...

Heroin, is there any uses for it? Like for what San Francisco did, they pseudo-legalized it, right? I mean, they said, hey, we're going to make it easier for you to do heroin. No, we shouldn't make it easier. That's crazy. Where they had drug injection sites, basically, right? Yeah, that's so stupid. No, I know, but that was a public policy position of Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco. That's the low-lying fruit for you right-wingers. No, that's a question. No, but isn't it? I want to create— It's the low-lying fruit.

Sure. It's a boundary. I want to create a boundary. And you're right. I mean, again, I'm for picking that fruit too. It's silly to help drug addicts be drug addicts and keep them on the street. It's stupid to keep homeless on the street. Oh, I totally agree. There's another way liberals are different than the woke. The liberal thing forever was

For compassion's sake, get them off the street. That's not the woke version. Their version is they're an endangered species. Don't touch them in their natural habitat living under a bridge. Let them defecate. Let them do whatever they want. It's their thing. And, you know, I mean, there should be nothing more basic than

a government claiming the streets. The streets are for the citizens. Then it's not to live in. Build a barracks. I mean, why are these things, maybe you can answer that, why are these kind of things so difficult? You think, such common sense. Build a fucking barracks. I know homeless people say they don't want to live there. You don't have a choice. Oh, we'll get robbed there. Hire security.

It's pennies on the dollar. Why is it so difficult? I feel like I, with no real knowledge of this field, could do it. If I had people who would carry out my, I would say, okay, get me specs. I want to see a place we could build it. I want to see what the barracks looks like. I want to see who works there.

Is it really in the toilets? Whatever. And somebody must be, Mitt Romney, somebody who did the Olympics, somebody who could come in and just— We know how to clean up the streets. I mean, Gavin Newsom cleaned up the streets of San Francisco when Gigi Ping showed up. I mean, it's just an act of the will. They don't want to do it. Right, like when they get the whores off the street, when the mayor is doing one of those cleanup— Or like when the MLB All-Star Game goes to Seattle, all of a sudden it's America's cleanest city. Right. Right.

So you're saying if we can do it that one day. I'm saying it's an act of the will. It's all that it is. And look, left woke, I won't even say left, woke philosophy is they believe, they don't really believe in private property. And at its core, why shouldn't someone be able to defecate on the side of the street? Who are you to judge?

Well, that's not woke. Yes, maybe. I'm saying woke, not even liberal. Right. I'm making that distinction, which I think is a fair distinction. That's another reason. Another one we can add to the list of woke is not liberal. And I think left versus liberal or woke versus liberal is an important distinction. Right. I will say what makes you different is few liberals stand up to the woke. And that is that few liberals are willing to stand up to woke. Absolutely. And few conservatives stand up to Trump.

Fair enough. I mean, you can stand up or disagree, but I guess you could say the question, is Trump—Woke is an ideology. Is Trump an ideology? I mean, he's a person. MAGA is an ideology. But I mean, we can—I disagree with Trump on a lot of stuff. I mean, I don't think we should go to war with Iran. I think that'd be a big mistake. Also, when you get to, we're going to send homegrown American citizens to foreign prisons—

Oh, so the thing he said, you mean? Homegrown. To Bukele. Americans. No, and if he were to do that, I would support it. Great.

But I think that is a one-liner that he gave to Bukele. I think that is, you met the man. Yes. Do you think he actually believes that? Like he would do that? It's worse if he does or would. It's still horrible that an American president would say that. Look me in the eye and tell me if Obama had said that, what your reaction would be. Wouldn't like it. Wouldn't like it.

Wouldn't like it. I think it would be a little more vitriolic than that. We would be upset. Apoplectic. Okay. I'm finding out how honest you are, Charlie, and so far I think you're doing good, and I hope I'm doing good with you. Because if we don't have the honesty, we can't really, you know. Look, but also to be fair to the whole topic in general, the outrage around deportations, as we've seen, these last couple of years,

you know, last couple of weeks is like the American people voted for it. It's perfectly legal. Well, they didn't vote for... They did vote for mass deportations. Disappearing people without any... I mean, the... So you mean that Maryland case is what you're talking about, right? The guy who they're trying... The MS-13 member? Well, there's no evidence that he's... They don't... They did not present evidence. I mean, I don't really want to get into the weeds on this one because I got to do it on my show Friday. But... And...

But the Supreme Court... I guess we have to get into the weeds. There's even new evidence in the last couple of hours that... You lead the conversation. You tell me how deep you want to go on it. None. Okay. I mean, but...

I hope that if it comes to light, let me button it up this way. I hope that if it does come to light, that there really is no evidence that this guy was a gang member, that he got swept up, which is very understandable that when you do a sweep, when you're doing big things, yes, nothing is going to go perfect. But if it does come to light, I would hope that some Republicans have the spine to say, yeah, that's not right.

This guy should not be there. I mean, the Bill of Rights, it's pretty clear that you can't just disappear people without any sort of trial. Well, but sorry to interrupt. And deportation is not the same thing as sending someone to a prison.

But you are allowed to deport under the Alien Enemies Act. Correct. Someone who is part of a recognized terrorist organization, which MS-13 is pretty close to a terrorist organization. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, you're bending all these words. And he's not an American citizen. We've got to acknowledge that. No, absolutely not. So that's important. But he wasn't here illegally either. No, he wasn't.

Illegally? The Maryland man. As long as we're not talking about two different cases. We're talking about Garcia. Garcia, yes. He was an illegal immigrant to the country. I thought he was waiting for asylum. You could be illegal waiting for asylum. I see. Okay, so they could deport him. That's right. Yes. But we never did it to a prison. It's an edge case. I acknowledge it's on the edge. Okay, good. No, but the edge is...

So there's three ways you can deport people. It could be the Alien Enemies Act of 1798. It can be expat. Used only three times. That's fine. But hey, look, you quote the First Amendment all the time. That's from 1787, right? So old things are important. I'm just saying, just because it's old. But that's when used more than three times. Fair enough. But just because things are old doesn't mean, and I'm not saying you're using that talking point, but some people are trying to invalidate it just because it's old.

It's also expedited release. They're trying to invalidate it because it doesn't really apply to this. It's stretching it. I mean, how is MS-13 not a terrorist organization? Yeah, you can make that. Or Trende Aragua. I mean, organized and funding. Because terrorism really is a political movement. It means terrorizing the civilian population to achieve a political goal. These guys just want to grab your locket.

You know, this is a lot more than that. Look, I've said that all this stuff I don't like about Trump. I did it in my piece the other week when I was talking about the meeting at the White House that no, he was tweeting about me. I've never liked anything. No. Check the tape. There are things I like. And one thing I liked was that.

The police have their morale back maybe now. And, you know, when you live in a city, it's not a good thing when the police lose their morale because they feel like they've been painted with a broad brush, which they were.

After 2020, you know, and they're like, OK, you know, and I've been very critical of the cops when I think they did bad things. But do I think this is it's a racist, you know, attack squad? It's not. There's issues. There's always issues in everything. And, you know, when when you insult the cops, they have a way of kind of brooding about it. And it's just not a good place to be. And when you're when you're a city dweller.

And so, you know, I don't want to be killed by a gang member because they do random killings, you know, just as gang initiation so they can get the fucking teardrop under their eye. Okay, I want to be someone's teardrop tattoo.

rando out to dinner. So I get it. You know, I mean, these are the things that lost the Democrats to the election. 100%. You know, you've got to take care of this shit. And there's real Americans that die. I mean, Rachel Moore and Lakin Riley. There's real, I mean, Jocelyn...

Well, probably not at greater rates than are killed by regular Americans. That's debated, but let's just put that aside. They shouldn't be here. And so none of those murders should happen, right? And so anyway, back to the core question, does the president have the ability to remove illegals that have come here under an enemy gang? Of course he does. He has the power given to him by that law.

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What's your background? I'm going to have to like Larry King this. You know, Larry King used to just famously – and I love Larry. I did his show a billion times. He was a legend. Yeah. I never met him. And his thing was like –

I don't prepare. I'm like the regular guy who just wants to know. He's curious about this person, so I don't know. So I ask the questions that this person would ask. You, Charlie Kirk, you're 31 years old. You're Jewish, right? No. Yeah, Muslim, actually. You're married? Yes. How long have you been married? It will be four years in May. Wow. And kids? Two kids, yeah. Two kids already? Yeah. Well, we got to work.

Now, Charlie, it shouldn't be work. That's all I'm going to say. I'm kidding. I know. It's an enjoyable work. Okay. We got to the fun, I should say. And you're going to have more? God willing. God willing. Right.

Right. And you know we don't see eye to eye on the religion thing. You know, someone told me that. I got to tell you. You should see my movie, Religion. I actually saw it. Oh, really? And to your credit, what you did on Islam was awesome.

The other one's not so much. Correct. Secondly, so if you just isolate the Islamic part. But it was fun. Secondly, to your credit, you treated woke like a religion. Yes. And you criticized them with the same intensity and ferocity you did. And you deserve a lot of credit for that. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. No, I mean that because you looked at it as this has a catechism. It has religious type undercurrents. It has almost a metaphysical presence to itself. And it's...

So you're an equal opportunity critic. Well, I mean, yeah. And it's funny because the director of Religious, Larry Charles, and I had dinner about a year ago and I suggested, and of course it went nowhere because we're both too old to really act on it, but I said...

People keep asking me, and I'm sure him also, to do Religious too, but when they say it, they think, oh, now we're going to go to India and make fun of the Hindus. I'm like, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to India, and the Hindus aren't that funny. We did it. The movie did great, and we love that it stands the test of time, and people always keep coming up to me and seeing it. Movies are amazing that way. But I said...

Somebody gave me a great idea. Why don't we do Religious 2, but the religion is wokeness?

And then that's what I was suggested. And I said, yeah, but then you're going to have to do the right side of it too because that's also a religion, Christian nationalism. I mean, come on. Your boys, some of the people I think you're fond of, they mix religion and politics in a way that I think is not according to the Constitution. But I have to tell you, I'll give you a lot of credit,

I saw a video of yours where you were talking about how Christy the original documents were, which is, you know, I mean, my view is that

the founding fathers, we know a number of them were deists, mostly that was their religion, but you did, and boy, you have your facts down. I mean, you can spiel when you get on a subject like this. - I got the shtick down. - You really do. And I trust you, you know, I'm going by what you, but you know,

They were a little Christier than I thought, you know, and I'm always happy to learn new information. And if it doesn't satisfy people that I don't stay exactly where I am, it satisfies the people who are actually my fans who always want me to do that, to be like, oh, if I take in new information. I mean, that's why, you know, the far left hates me because I went to the White House and said, well, privately, Trump's different.

And good for you for saying that. Yeah, and I didn't give an inch on anything I believe. I confronted him on things that I think, you know, he probably maybe never hears from anybody else. But that's not good enough for them because, you know, they had to. But no, if you take in new information, just tell me. And so I do think after listening to your spiel that, yes, they were a little more into Jesus than

than I thought. I mean, I know Jefferson wrote that Bible and took all- He heavily edited it. Took all the miracles out. He took all the religiosity out of it and just made him a- A moral teacher. A moral philosopher. Mm-hmm.

Now, you have to admit, that's not exactly the act of a Christy person. No, but at least he acknowledged that there was something profound there. Got to give him credit for that. I could even acknowledge that. Okay, that's good. I'm glad to hear you say that. Well, Jesus, as a philosopher, was a true revolutionary. I mean, when he said, the meek shall inherit the earth, I think the response was— Blessed are the peacemakers. Yeah. But the idea that it gets good in the next life was fairly—

I think, revolutionary. And the fact that if you're a good person in this life, there's a much greater... This is just the pregame. You want the after party. And the after party is just going to be fucking awesome. You're up there with me and my dad, God, and it's just...

You know, what do you think would create a better society or better action? People that think that there isn't there is an afterlife based on how you act or people that think there isn't one. That's a great question, because it certainly can turn people the way it can make you fly planes into a building. I'm not speaking of any specific example. I can't think of anything. I can't either. But it can make you do that. You'll admit that.

Sure. It could also make you do, like, blow up Oklahoma City, too. Yes. And it could also— I fully acknowledge. And I fully acknowledge that it also keeps millions of people in line. Like Mark Wahlberg. I'm guessing without Catholicism, he just looks like a guy who would be in a lot more trouble. But I think it just has made his life, you know, much more under control. Yeah.

So there's one. Mark Wahlberg, I think, really benefits from Catholicism. But I think there's lots of people like that. They truly are worried that if they do something out of line, illegal or immoral, that the devil will...

in short order after they die, be poking them in the ass with a pitchfork, and so they don't do that. And I gotta give it up. That is a positive. Are you at all worried that when a nation becomes too secular, it might not know what it believes? There's no cultural cohesion. There's no glue that keeps it together. Yeah, but this isn't that nation. This isn't secular. This is a bunch of fucking religious freaks. It's increasingly secular, though.

- Well, thank you. I'm trying. - No, but, I appreciate it. - You are quite the evangelist for your cause of no afterlife and no creator. - You know what? It creeps up a little, but people always are going to want it. People always are gonna wanna believe a story. It's much better than the truth, which is that things are random. We don't know the big questions. We don't know how we got here. We don't know why we're here. We don't know how the universe started.

We're alone in the universe. You know, is there a God? What is the nature of God? Which one is the right God? We just don't. Nobody knows. I mean, that's why they call it faith. Do you hope you're wrong? That's the most important question. That's a great question. Well, how... Do you hope there's a heaven?

I hope they figure out how I can live forever. I like it here with you, Charlie, drinking this and smoking pot. I'm having a great time. I really can't imagine it better. I mean, I can't. And maybe it is. I'm sure it is. I'm sure, you know, people have— But something in you probably hopes that, I don't know, Hitler gets ultimate judgment or the most evil things, right? Yeah.

Something in you wants to see your loved ones. I don't think about Hitler. No, but there's got to be a desire somewhere. A lot of people just think about Hitler. What, Stalin, Mao? I know, but I'm just saying Hitler comes up a lot. Fair enough. That there is a desire that there's something beyond this that is just. Okay.

Yes, I do. But, I mean, it's very hard to find that justice on earth. Ask an AIDS baby. Bill, that's why when you say, hey, I'm happy here, there's a lot of suffering on earth too. And that's the Christian argument, right? And some of it is, you know, we obviously can see it comes from no bad deed done, you know, children with cancer. Of course. And then they say, well, that's, you know, God works in mysterious ways, which is sort of a get out of jail card for any kind of.

Admittedly, it's the hardest. We as Christians have to explain unjust suffering.

Atheists have to explain everything else. How do you explain it? We don't. It's hard. It's a mystery. We can say God works in mysterious ways. We can say original sin. However, we don't have to explain creation or the miracle of life or love or justice. We don't have to explain it either because it's not explainable because we don't know. We say we don't know. That's honest. You say no, no.

Somebody told a story a long time ago, and we're going to stick with that. That to me, I'm not trying to be insulting. You can't offend me, trust me. I mean that. So you could be as crude or as blunt. I mean that. But I find that intellectually embarrassing. That's fine. You know, spring is here, and the warm weather makes me want to get outside for some quality time playing basketball and meeting up with friends. The last thing I want to do in the little free time I have is worry about making food.

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Well, true. No, it's an important question, meaning like when they were documenting King David, like was King David a real figure? There are shards of it that are, I'm sure. So Jesus was a real person? Well, that we don't know. That is not a definitive. Okay. It really is not. Like take Paul. We both agree Paul was legit and a real person. Paul was a Jew, persecuted Jews, and then had his road to Damascus moment. Why would he do that?

except for the fact that he's crazy or like delusional. What incentive would Paul have to do that? Rich, ruling class, gave up everything.

You know, you're saying to me, is there never a case of human delusion or mass delusion or people can be... Well, there are suicide cults, of course there are. I acknowledge that. The capacity, the human capacity to believe what's not true, to believe what you want to believe, is infinite. I mean, you are literally the person I'm talking about at the very beginning of the movie, Religious, because the very first scene is...

I'm sitting in the car and I'm saying, the movie is not a spiritual quest. I mean, that's what we told them so they'd sign the release. The movie is me saying,

I don't know how it could be that so many intelligent people can wall off a part of their mind and believe in something that part of their mind must know is not true. That's the question I'm going for in religion. And like you're obviously a super smart guy. Well, and respectfully, you go ahead, sure. And again, I don't want to insult you on this. I appreciate you saying it.

Have you seen me go to college campuses? There's nothing that can fade. Right, but you understand my question, right? Interestingly, ironically, I have the same struggle. I don't know how somebody as intelligent as you, and I'm not trying to offend you. You cannot believe in a virgin birth? No, hold on. Time out, hold on. All of that takes faith, I acknowledge, but that all of the fine-tuning of our universe, if any of those fine-tunings were off, a famous scientist... Some of them are off. A famous scientist said...

To believe that the universe and the earth in its current composition was an act of randomness would believe that a hurricane would go through a junkyard and assemble a 737 flight-ready Boeing. He's wrong. Okay, that's fine. But there are so many fine-tuning aspects to our existence that I think defy—

the idea that this is all randomness and all chance. You know that's not logical. You're saying because I don't know the answer, I'm going to assume the answer must be that a divine intervention did it. That's not really a scientific way of looking at it. So the teleological view, not the cosmological view, is that all of these fine tunings, when layered up one after the other,

It defies, I think, reason to think that this is just a roll of the dice. That when you see a baby come into the world, when you see how we naturally heal, when you even consciousness itself, I think is a pretty miraculous thing to think that's all just

a bunch of happy accidents. I think it's more rational to think that that's a byproduct of design. You're saying some prime mover made it so these things happen. I would say if a prime mover could do that, why don't you skip all the suffering and why don't you just get us to where we're the perfect thing forever?

why you need things, I don't know, but okay, the perfect being right away. We're somehow on this journey to being, you know,

Completely immortal and healthy, I guess, and completely moral and don't fuck each other up and don't have sex with children and all the bad things we do. All the evil of our world. Yeah, all the evil and the Holocaust. Why go through all that if you are a prime mover? I assume that means you can do anything and just get us right to the end and then we can just...

What? Why? Just a bunch of us walking around being perfect? I mean, why is that interesting to a god? You know, the whole thing just don't make sense. So that's a separate question, though, of whether or not there is something behind our existence. I mean, so we believe that the universe started with a Big Bang.

Do you agree with that? Yeah, but that's not the beginning of things. That's just the beginning of what the known universe is. The big question is what was before that. And we believe it's a being, a God, that's always, that's a constant. And look, I mean, you know, the misnomer about atheism is that...

we say, oh, there's no God. No, we just, we just say, we don't know. As Richard Dawkins always says, there's theism, which is belief in gods. And they used to believe in many. And then it got to one and we just believe in one less. So there's just, just not how would you differentiate that from agnosticism? There isn't. Okay. That's, that's another thing that's bullshit. No, I, I don't,

I'm just asking a good faith question. No, I think a lot of atheists think that. A lot of people on my team with this, they have that view that, you know, don't split hairs with the atheists and the agnostics. It's like...

So we're on some part of, I don't know, and I'll never know, so I really don't think about it a lot. I don't get up for church. I try to be a good person because I just think intrinsically it's good for society. It's good for me to be a good person as much as I can. And I don't need the threat of the pitchfork in the ass to do it. Can I ask a question? Ow! Nothing.

But you even acknowledge, though, that some people act better if they feel as if they'll be judged eternally. Okay, no, that's a big admission. Oh, yes. But how do you think society best determines what is good?

That's a great question. I mean, isn't that what government is always wrestling with? What makes society good? Do you think, even as an atheist, the Ten Commandments, the right side of the Ten Commandments is a good place to start? The right side? Well, because the left side, I think you'd have a big problem, right? I have a problem with eight of the ten, because only two of them are laws. You've got a problem with eight of the ten? Two of them are laws. Only two. What do you mean? Don't kill. And don't steal. Okay. And don't steal. Sure. Like...

I mean, this idea that God is this- But you're good with those two, obviously. Like the first four are just jealous God shit. It's just like, you know what? No, honoring your parents is not jealous God stuff. God's like a pimp who was in the next room and he said, who you on the phone with there, girl? You know, I mean, I guess I'm testing them. Hold on, but no, again, I'm not offendable on this, but I think you could have, I know you made fun of it religiously, but there's something beautiful about not working for a day.

Oh, I mean like honoring the Sabbath. Oh, I, a week is even better. Um, but like, well, the Sabbath, no, I mean the Sabbath, but slowing down and saying that we're not going to toil for a day. But do you need, why would you need a religion to get to that? Why would you need a religion to, Hey, let's not kill each other and, uh, take a day off. Like I,

Again, I don't need a threat or a carrot for that. It's just so intrinsic. It sort of reminds me of the beginning of the Declaration of Independence. If it's intrinsic, then why is it that a lot of countries that don't have Christianity struggle to come to these realizations?

that, for example, you know, communist China. We're going to know Hitler analogies, right? Under Mao, which was resolutely atheist, right? Resolutely. Yeah, I mean... Well, no. I did a monologue in Religious... They might have Confucianism underlying it. I did a monologue in Religious about that very subject, which is the people who say, oh, Bill, these atheistic societies like North Korea, and no, no.

Those kind of societies, they just replaced the leader of the country for a god. They are not atheistic. When you look at what the North Korean people believe about Kim Jong-un. It's a deification. It's a deification. I completely agree. The same shit. When he was born, winter turned to spring. He'll be immortal in the heaven. The first time he played golf, he got 11 holes in one.

He invented the hamburger. I'm not making any... That's more improbable than a virgin birth. It is. It really is. We agree on that. I'm not making this up, but they believe that. So don't tell me North Korea is atheistic. They're not atheistic. But they...

There is a, in China at least, and of course in the Soviet Union, there was a anti-Christian movement. Very hard. Very hardcore. Okay. So I guess like what code, and I'm not saying this sarcastically, like what code, what book do you think is best for humanity to live by? I say the Bible. What would you say?

No, it's an important philosophical question. I have a book called Not the Bible. I'm not kidding. So not loving your neighbor and not like, you know, helping them. There's a lot of good stuff there. Okay, but again. Let me tell you why I'm asking. You're cherry picking. Come on, Charlie. The story of the Bible is one of love and redemption. There's a lot in the Bible. It is. It's a story of love. The Old Testament? Yeah.

Well, the entire arc of the Bible is a story of love and a need for human's redemption. Well, that's a charitable way of looking at it, and that's in there. There's a lot of things in there because it's a giant anthology over centuries of many different writers. There is a lot in the Bible. It wasn't written by God, right? There's a book of the Bible I think you'd love. What? Song of Solomon. Song of Solomon. Crosby, Solzhenitsyn, Nash? Song of Solomon is all about sex. I know. It is? Yeah. Quote it.

I can't. It's not appropriate. No. What? It's too dirty for a podcast? It literally is about how a husband and wife can grow intimate to one another. Oh, can you tell me that? Can you give me the cheat sheet on that one? I'm telling you, the Bible has wisdom in ways you might never imagine, Bill.

But no, what I'm getting at, though, is that this is not a gotcha or sarcasm. I mean this. Like, humanity will seek to find a book. They'll seek to find a code to live by. And I think it's incumbent on atheists to tell us what that should be. I agree with the first part of that. Humanity will seek to find. Seek to know. That's Aristotle's first argument.

Well, seek to find something that mollifies their feelings. That's different than knowing. No, they don't really care about knowing. They care about mollifying their feelings. I feel empty. What will make me feel better? This book that purports to have answers it couldn't possibly have.

But it does make me feel better because now I don't have to wonder about things that are very problematic to worry about. Like, how did I get here? And what does it all mean? And why do, you know, kids get fucking cancer when they're two for no reason? And I don't have an answer. I know. I'm just saying. And I acknowledge that. But this book has the answers to that question. Don't ask. Okay? Don't ask A and B. God works in mysterious ways. And that's the end of it. Go to your room.

I think it's a little deeper than that, but it is. I mean, it is deeper. Of course, it's that, hey, why are we here? Why were we created? But fair enough. I do want to know though, but like what? I don't got it for you. We don't have it and we don't claim to have it. But that's a big problem though. And let me pause because the Bible was the document, as you acknowledged, that our founders read and believed that built this beautiful society that you and I both love.

And I think it's treading on dangerous if we want to, A, cut our roots without an alternative, because if we cut our roots, then we get all this other counterfeit stuff of wokeism and all this postmodernist garbage. So our contention is let's go back to where we came from. You know who Eugene O'Neill is? No? Eugene O'Neill? No. Oh, kids today. A giant of American literature, theater, literature.

Long Day's Journey Into Night. Have you heard of that play? Never heard of Long Day's Journey Into Night? You kids, what are they doing with you in school? I never went to college, Bill. This is the problem. Okay. Anyway, he once said, I find a life with illusions unpardonable and a life without illusions unbearable. And that's the essence of where we are. You are

Choose the second. I choose the first. I find a life with illusions unpardonable. I just can't do it. Okay. And you find a life without illusions unbearable. And the fact that we can, I think, come to this moment where we go, okay, that's you, type A. I'm type B. And still be friends. To me, this is the future of where this country has to go. And nothing you have said has offended me in this light. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate that.

Because, again, that was my question in Religious, how can otherwise really super smart people, but this is the answer. Can I interrupt? Do you doubt those of us that have had religious experiences? Do you think it's just like neurological phenomenon? How would you define it? If I say that Jesus changed my life and he's gone to work in my soul. Okay, but was he like getting, did he jump in the car with you at the drive-thru?

You said a religious experience. I have to ask how much that is. There was a moment where I realized that I'm not all that I would ever want to be, that I fall short of the glory of God's wish. When was this? When I was in fifth grade, actually. Fifth grade? Really? Yeah. That's when I gave my life to the Lord. You were thinking about this shit in fifth grade? Amazingly. I went to Christian school.

So you don't see that as indoctrination? Well, you know, I actually went to a private school previously, but they didn't force it on us, to their credit. No, but you said you were in a Christian school. Okay, you're 10. You're in a Christian school. There's no connection of like maybe at a very early age, they put a chip in your brain?

I mean, I still had to make the decision for myself. And there's a lot of kids that went to that school that aren't Christians anymore. By the way, I went to Catholic. I was raised Catholic. Didn't stick. I had the opposite reaction to catechism, which was the religious training we would go to on Sunday morning where you would learn how to be a good Catholic.

And it just really turned me off. Was it too forceful, too legalistic? Like all of it. It was just a giant. I mean, I was used to a room with 20 kids in it at regular school. And then on Sunday, there's like 60 kids and they're from different schools. And they're just like that. Like, and the nuns were like mean because you got 60 kids. You don't really know you have to like. And of course, they're mean to begin with.

to like get them in order and they scared you and they yelled at you and they hit you with a ruler on the knuckles. I really, I'm from that era where they still like fucking hit you on the... You know how often I hear the rulers from like scorned Catholics? The ruler is like a very common thing. Again, the idea that you keep people in line, it's by fear. That's why you're keeping people in line. And that's a question an atheist really...

I think, is due to ask a religious person, do you really think fear is the best way for us to grow and become good people? Because if that's how we're doing it, I do have a problem with the methodology, even if I believed in the religion. I hear that from a lot of people that were raised Catholic. No, I do.

I'm sorry. It's true. It's so true about the Catholic thing. I'm sorry. No, you're right. I didn't mean to, you know, did I do an exorcism or something? Trust me, we have a whole highlight reel of spit takes. It's the highlight of any show. If the guest doesn't make me do a spit take, we consider this a failure, but you did. So go on. But yes, Catholics, yes, that's exactly who you would hear that from.

It's an under-emphasis on grace. Grace? Yeah. What is grace? It's such a vague term. So justice is getting what you deserve. Me personally? Yeah, we believe all humanity deserves damnation and judgment. Tough, tough stuff. And it started in the garden. It's tough. You believe in the garden? You believe in the Old Testament? Oh, yeah. I'm one of those Christians. Like 6,000 years old thing? Not necessarily.

Because in religious, I went to see the museum that they have. Oh, yeah, Ken Ham's deal. Ken Ham, yes, and we interviewed Ken. He was not happy. You've got to admit, the Ark is pretty impressive. Have you seen the Ark? They built a whole Ark there. We were there for a whole day. I don't know. I can't remember if it was before or after the Ark. No, no, it was. That's impressive. And Jesus riding the dinosaur.

Yeah, I don't know about that. Jesus riding the dinosaur. Do I really need to elaborate, people? Okay, go ahead with your thing. Judgment is getting what you deserve. Mercy is getting less what you deserve.

Wait, wait. Mercy is getting less than what you do. Yeah, so we believe Jesus gives us grace. So you get a prison sentence, you get judgment. You get mercy, you get less of a prison sentence. Grace would be Jesus serving that prison sentence for you so you could live life eternal. How is he serving that? Oh, you mean like in the big picture? Well, because we believe him living a perfect life

and then suffering the death that he did on the cross was him atoning for our sins. Of course. The sins of humanity. Jesus, yeah. Which is a big claim, albeit, and a very compelling one, which we also believe one to be true, because it redeems all of humanity of our shortfalling of the glory of God. I got to say, it's really picking up the check for the whole table.

You know, I mean, you got to give it to your boy for like all of our sins. It's a very generous thing. But what it does is it is at its core a statement of human equality, that we're all sinners, we're all screwed up. We all got problems, we all got vices. And like no one, no matter what you do, we all fall short of God's standard and Jesus makes us whole. But how do you think this view of life works?

reflects your politics and how much should it and how much does it? So look at me, big pothead just turned into a real interviewer. I love it. It's a Larry King coming full circle here. Um, there's you and I both agree there's, it's very difficult to have separation of morality and state. Correct. So my morals come from the Bible.

Right. And that definitely influences my public policy decisions. Mine come from Playboy after dark. Is that a problem? It's a little bit different than, let's just say, the book of Deuteronomy. Oh, well, that's full of crazy shit. Oh, okay, yeah. The book of Deuteronomy? Well, there's some good stuff in there. That's the one, but that's the... I love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. That's good. Yeah, also, like, no poking in the wrong hole. You're going to have to ask...

Gay. A rabbinic Jew about that. Well, I think it's Deuteronomy. No, that's Leviticus. Do not lie with another man. Right. Yeah, that's Leviticus 19. No, and that is wrong. Thou shall not lie with another man. Do not lie to another man because if you lie to a gay man, ooh, you are going to pay for it. That's rough stuff. But lie with another man, that should be everybody's right, don't you think?

Personally, you have a right to do what you would like to do personally. With another person. But I, as a Christian, do not believe that would be holy. I think it would be sinful. But that's a personal theological. I don't want to get too deep, but that's a personal theological. No, we need to get a little deeper into this because it's so important just to understand. Well, let me ask you what you believe. I believe...

that some people, a decided minority, maybe one out of 20, probably, for whatever reason that nature, this perfect nature that you described as perfect. Well, it was designed perfect. It's all screwed up now. Okay.

No, I mean, we have disease and we have all sorts of stuff. Got Down syndrome. We got all sorts of problems. Okay, well, then it wasn't designed perfect because it screwed up. You know what we believe, though. We believe there was a rebellion and a contamination of nature. Right. That is sin. Right, okay. If they hadn't eaten the apple. We actually don't know it's an apple, but yes, it's inferred. Whatever the shit. It could have been a mango.

Well, you know. No, don't get me started on mangoes. As they say in West Hollywood, there's nothing like having a mango in your mouth. It's George Costanza's favorite fruit, but yes.

But, oh, damn, man, what was the point of this? Tell me. Something about Deuteronomy. Homosexuality? Yes, homosexuality. As we're keeping it on the lighter topics. Thank you. So about 1 out of 20 people, maybe even 1 out of 10, I don't know. And then people will say there's a spectrum. Maybe there's a two. Of course, there is. Some people are like, you know, what the kids call zesty.

you know, not gay, but kind of on the waiting list. Okay. But let's say just gay, like people who are just not attracted to the opposite sex. They're attracted and want to have sex with people of their own sex. Would you agree that that happens in nature? Yeah, of course it does. Yes. There are instances of species in the animal kingdom that do that. Absolutely. I acknowledge this. And we are in the animal kingdom. In fact, we're number one with a bullet.

Okay, so given that we both agree that that's a phenomenon that exists. There's other things that happen in nature that aren't so good too. But just, yes, that's correct. Like on a par with this? No, I'm just saying, just to say that it happens in the species of the animal kingdom doesn't make it necessarily morally okay.

But what's immoral about fucking in the ass? I don't understand why the ass in itself, ipso facto, is immoral. It's just an ass. And the fact that some people want to fuck in there, I've done a million jokes about it. I don't get that. I mean, it's where the shit comes out. I just don't get it.

If even I was gay, I'd find another way. But that's just me. But they do want to do it. Why is there a moral dimension to this? Again, I believe scripture is God-breathed. It's what the Bible says. Okay, because the Bible says. Yeah, I do. You're correct. But you do know like...

The argument from people like me, that kind of logical argument, is that, well, these books were really not written by a god. They were written by men, and it reflected... Well, of course they were transcribed by men, obviously. It reflected the primitive views of people in that era who would, of course, have had primitive views. They also didn't understand germs or atoms. So their views on this were primitive, and they believed that there was something...

wrong with that, that I get it, that it was different than the most of the people in the tribe that, you know, these two guys are going off and doing it, but that we can, as sentient beings now, logical, intellectual beings recognize it. This was from a long time ago. And now it's just something that happens in nature that some people want to fuck this way and some people want to fuck this way. And there's no moral dimension to it and no reason to just call it a sin.

Again, Christianity just disagrees with that. So, I mean, it's the only sin that God destroyed a city over. So, I mean, and I'm not trying to be legalistic about it. It's just a fact, right? And it's explicitly prohibited in the text. By the way, so is adultery and so is stealing and so is coveting. I'm guilty of coveting. And I mean, we're all guilty of many sins. I'm not trying to single that one out and try to be...

I think the phrase you're searching for is save your breath. This is what we believe, and I get it. It's doctrine. So wait, coveting? Now, coveting is one you can't control.

No, that's not true. Oh, stop it. You can control coveting. It's like saying you can control, if I say don't ever think of a pink elephant, you will think of a pink elephant. It's a little bit more than thinking, we would say in the interpretation of coveting. It's to the place where you become obsessed with,

It takes your being. Oh, no. That's coveting? I thought coveting was just wanting something you don't have. Of course, you can't regulate every thought that you have, but coveting gets to the place where it becomes your identity of obsession. And let me tell you why, because it says do not covet a specific thing. Your neighbor's wife, your donkey. So it's like a very specific thing. So for example, if someone says, I want to be

I can't stand Bill Maher. I want to be a comedian as successful as Bill Maher. And it becomes their identity. I don't think that's good. I think it ruins your soul. I think you would agree with that, too. You know people like that. Don't give them any ideas. No, come on. They're already there. But people that are consumed with jealousy. Totally. That's what we would say coveting is. Not just like, oh, don't think of the pink elephant. I'm not here to play air traffic control on your thoughts. Right. Right.

Because, you know, you're an attractive guy. I'm sure there's lots of mega groupies. And I'm sure coveting comes up. You know, how can you not covet? And praise God that I have a great wife. Right. She understands about the coveting. Yeah, and we have a very healthy, loyal, you know, wonderful marriage. But male nature is, that's why there had to be a prohibition on adultery.

Because it is male nature to— No, I think it's actually easier to be a female in that way. I completely agree. Right. I covet being a female. I wouldn't go that far. How wrong is that? No, and again, good on you for being a liberal that acknowledges male-female distinctions. What a concept, right? Oh, of course. I mean—

Of all the low-lying fruit that the Democrats just, like, hand the Republicans to win elections, that's the one. You know, it's so funny. I joked around with my team the other day. I said, are they really going to just let us win every national election on this no men and female sports thing? Right. Like, they can't surrender on this one issue. It's so ridiculous. It's a 90-10 issue. Yeah. There's 890 medals and trophies of men winning these competitions. You lost Gavin Newsom on this. Okay.

Okay. Take that as a hint, right? I mean, you were, I think you were on... I was the one that asked the question. Right. Yeah. And he said, issue of fairness, all that. Well, that's what I started to say when you sat down. You're everywhere now. You're Gavin, everybody's podcast. And, you know, look, I always say this. Everybody's a monster till you talk to them. Not to say that there aren't some people who probably are monsters, but like, I mean, I've yet to find...

The horror show that is you. So let me- Keep looking, Bill. No, I want to. You gotta keep going. I do, I want it. You gotta dig deeper. Cut me some slack, because we're friends now, right? We really are. Absolutely. Okay, so just cut to the chase. What is it that the 10% who hate me- Oh, yeah. Tell me what they are wanting me to do.

To press you on that, what is the thing that presses their buttons the most about why your incorrigibles did it? I don't even think you would agree with their accusations. But I just want to know what it is. They would say I'm hateful. They would say I'm a bigot. They would say that I'm a xenophobe.

Those are the contentions that I get. But based on what things that you've said specifically? I mean, I believe that transgenderism is a mental disorder as it was diagnosed in the— So you don't think any people are like born, quote unquote, in the wrong body? No, I don't agree. No? I think people might think they are born in a different body, but—

I believe it to be a mental disorder, as most of clinicians did up until the last five or ten years. Well, you know, this is another one where the woke hates me. I mean, I did a whole thing on how I think, and we do disagree on this, by the way, because I do think there is such a thing as being born in the wrong body. But I said what's going on in the country is what I would call entrapment, because entrapment, by legal means, is when you

to people something they really wouldn't have done anyway. And I use the example of the Liberty Seven, the seven outcasts

African-American gentleman in Miami who were planning to blow up the Sears Tower. They were not. The FBI came in to seven people who were probably had good reason to be discontented with America and said, wouldn't it be great if we blew up the Sears Tower in Chicago for Allah? And they were like, yeah. And they didn't even have a gun.

That's entrapment. Or the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping case, similar. No, that's real. That's legit. Oh, the kidnapping. No, that was entrapment. So she really wasn't? No, no, that was an FBI entrapment then. Absolutely.

Absolutely. It was. Oh, yeah. It was like five feds and two guys. Anyway, we don't have to get— For the record, I'm not acknowledging that I agree with that because I don't know if I'm about it. In the comments, you guys can agree or disagree. I'm just acknowledging that I respect Charlie Kirk enough to look into whether that is—and it could be true because I say it all the time. I don't believe anybody.

Like, you just lost my trust, all media, right, left, very few people. I'm right there with you. Do I have, like, okay, I hear what you're saying. Now I have to go vet it. Hilariously, more people that I know that are center left now say, I think Trump is not a monster because Bill Maher of what he said. On anything else.

Well, I didn't exactly say that. Well, no, you said not a crazy person lives in the White House. That was what you said. Right. And you said he was respectful and gregarious. Yes. I said not a crazy, but a person who acts crazy on the public stage. Those are two different things, though. I know, but that's what matters. I also said it doesn't matter

What he does in a private dinner with a comedian, what matters is who he's on the world stage. What bothers me about the critiques I get is that they don't acknowledge the points I myself made. Fair enough. Let me ask you. No, I don't mean you. No, no, no, no. But would you prefer him to be crazy in private or crazy in public? I'm not saying he's crazy. I just took it as a positive. And I said this also. I took it as a positive that at least there is this other person. No.

that I see that is undeniable. And again, for all the people who, we're losing truth. Yes, I was one of the first to say that. We are losing truth.

okay, but I told you the truth. That's all I did. I went there and I told the truth of what happened. And good for you. And they would prefer that I had lied. Did you sign the Bill Maher Accords? Exactly. It was like the ratification of a treaty. But he signed that piece. I thought that was hilarious. It is hilarious. It's like you guys were negotiating. First,

First of all, the thing I did was so fucking funny. Give me a little credit for you. To sign the thing? No, but the whole piece I did on my show was hysterical. I thought it was terrific. Yeah, it was funny. And honestly, good for President Trump for hosting you. Right. He had the magnanimity to do that. And listening. And again, the reason why I was the perfect choice for this was because nobody had been harder on him. So it was a real Nixon to China thing.

And by the way, if you don't know what Nixon to China means, you probably shouldn't be commenting on political matters to begin with, my critical friends. What your meeting, I thought, was a great window into the whole liberal world that shows the Donald Trump that I know.

And that I've gotten to know, which is, and I just thought it was hilarious when he was, you know, asking you about Iran, right? He'll ask anybody about anything. He loves asking people's opinion. He listens more than he talks. Right. He'll solicit opinions. I know it blows people's minds when we say this. Well, it also blows our minds because then he doesn't do the right thing.

Sometimes he does. Sometimes he does. The embassy to Jerusalem is secure. I gave that whole list. I also gave the list of things that are horrible, disappearing people and ignoring judges and gutting the government with glee, this tariff thing that even the conservative press has turned off on. So –

Yeah, it was just honest down the line on both sides. I just told you what I saw. And good for you. And didn't, and I just told this to Harvey Levin on his show. I'm proud I looked him in the eye and said, you're scaring people. I'm proud I looked him in the eye and said. How did he react to that? I know, but see, that's the thing. I said that the night I gave it, I said,

you're scaring people. Why do you want to scare your own citizens so much? And I know everybody wants to know what he said, and the truth is, I don't remember. But it wasn't... What kind of drugs were you guys doing that night? But it wasn't, okay, I'll stop. Then you would have remembered. That I would have remembered. So I have no illusions that, you know, my dinner with Donald Trump is going to change the nation. But to the haters, it's just like,

As opposed to what? Not engaging at all? That is their... It's either me or Gretchen Whitmer with the binders in front of her face. I mean, I feel like I did it better. I went in there. I didn't give one inch on what I believe or saying to his face what I believe. Uh...

But, you know, I told the truth about how he's different in private. Do you think, why, what do you think about the idea of,

You going, here's how I would frame it. You going to meet with Trump would be the equivalent of Biden inviting me over for dinner. Meaning like, is that fair? Absolutely. Okay. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Absolutely. Why do you think Biden or Obama wouldn't do that and Trump did? I mentioned that too in the thing. I said, you know what? You did. I said, you know, because look, this was kind of a guy's dinner. And I, look, Donald Trump is a man of a certain age, of a certain way of life.

I just think he's comfortable with the guys. And I also think he loves his wife more than his let on. But like, he just likes being with the guys. And it was a guy's dinner. We just had a good guy's time. And so like I said it, like I voted for Obama. I voted for Clinton. But the idea that I could talk to them as freely as I felt this conversation was going is emblematic to me of why the Democrats lose the elections.

because they just don't feel that this is like a real person. And I know it's so weird to say that about Donald Trump, who I've said a jillion times is, you know, a whiny little bitch. I mean, I could go through my greatest hits of like insults, but this was about getting past that and maybe seeing that if we met in person...

We don't hate each other as much, and we don't. And I'm sorry. I'm not going to pretend that's a bad thing. No, it's how you heal as a country. Even though he's doing terrible things. I would say doing great things, but that's a separate issue. I mean, sending American citizens to foreign prisons. He didn't do that. That was a one-liner. He set a one-liner.

You're so forgiving. I am. That's the Christ in me. I know, but— You need Jesus, Bill, and you'll be more forgiving. Again, you wouldn't have been forgiving if Obama said it. Well, so just let's speak—so what did Trump say that the homegrown ones—you could also argue that if it's an illegal alien homegrown. I don't even want to get too far deep into it. Let's just say you were—I don't think we should ever entertain American citizens going to prisons abroad. Great.

Because, I mean, you're a student of American history. I try. Yeah. I don't know who Eugene O'Neill is, but... Well, that's not history. That's the arts. And that's the 20th century. But yes, I'm happy to fill the gaps in your knowledge. Thank you. That's a big one. Eugene O'Neill's big. I would not like... No, no, no. It's like I... He's not like this small guy. But okay. So, The Iceman Cometh, another big one. But Iceman, you can see it's not recent. But...

I forget now what we're talking about. It's the pot. I blame the pot. Charlie, it's always the pot. You're right. It's terrible. I'm going to quit tomorrow. It sharpens your memory. What do you think would happen if you smoked pot? You never did? No. Even as a kid? No.

But what—see, just the—this is like sort of my version of the religion thing. Like, maybe you're missing out on the big picture the way I am with Christianity. Maybe—except I've already been exposed to Christianity, and you've never been exposed to Rastafarianism or whatever my religion is. Only one of those has an afterlife. But you could—I mean, don't you—don't you—

Think that it would be a great thing to see corners of your mind that you have never looked into. Tell me more. What do you mean by that? It's not a game. I want to like— No, I will tell you. I'm happy to tell you. I'll put it this way. I've mentioned this before with potheads, I think, on my show, that when I have an important decision to make—

I treat my mind the way Congress is designed, a bicameral institution. I will think about it sober, and I will think about it stoned. And then if they agree, they can reconcile and present a bill, and I will sign it. And there's a reconciliation process. But they both have to agree on this, because I just have a different perspective when I'm stoned. And it's very often sharper and more insightful and better presented.

You know, I mean, just editing, I know, like just writing in general. But I mean, I don't do all my writing stoned, but like the final edit, it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. That should go. Like things I did not see sober, I will see stoned. And, you know, you might get stoned and be like, Jesus, what? Are we kidding?

Get back from the dead? No, I'm kidding. So Sunday's Easter, what are you going to do? It must be a big day. He is risen. He is risen indeed, Bill. We're going to be celebrating the resurrection of our Lord. Why do we say that in the present tense? Because it is a constant truth in our life. He is risen. I always noticed it. That was interesting to me. That's a really important question, actually. It is. Tell me. Well, because the fact that he is risen transcends time.

It's not just in the present sense. It's that of all time, that promise is accessible to all of us. And so it's a proclamation to all people. Because if you said, hey, he was risen, it's like it's just merely a historical event. It almost underplays the metaphysics of it. I'm just always fascinated the way really, really fine intellectual minds employ themselves to

for the purpose of arguing things that are so inarguable. - But it does fascinate you though. - It does, because it's almost like a challenge. Like, I'm so smart that I can make this thing, which is so fucking stupid.

It's not stupid. No, no, it's fine. No, but you get where I'm coming from. I'm going to take something that is so anti-intellectual, even though I can argue like an intellect. However, but you have to acknowledge even the greatest minds of history have been mesmerized by the scriptures. Isaac Newton, Thomas Aquinas. Isaac Newton wrote more about biblical prophecy than even physics. And so there's something about the scriptures that are intellectual, that does push your limits.

And that's what I think is so beautiful about our faith is it can be accessible to everyone, but also infinitely nourishing and exploration. So why the, if there's this other truth that's beyond this metaphysical truth, why so many different versions of it that only seem to cause wars? You know, Protestants and Catholics. Eastern Orthodox, Mormon. Someone asked me recently, like,

You know, like, I won't say who, but sometimes people have, you know, don't know history that well. And they're like, like, okay, so Columbus, 1492, lands on America. And we don't really then have the first colony until 1607, Jamestown. So somebody said to me, what happened in that century? You know what happened in that century? Martin Luther died.

at the beginning of that century, said there's an alternative to Catholicism. There's 95 theses that were... Nailed on the door of Wittenberg in 1517. And for the next hundred years, they just fucking killed each other all over Europe.

about who was right about that. And that's why it took a century after Columbus landed to go back, because they were preoccupied with killing each other over whether

the pope in rome was the devil and you know and then and then or is the eucharist the liberal body of christ i mean did his foreskin ascend to heaven with him or was that left here because he was a jew i mean there was just a lot of silly questions there was a lot of debates arianism remember that from sure yeah or dualism or modalism right or um i mean how do we come to trinitarianism as a whole i find that i find the first few centuries of christianity the

the most fascinating part. Tell me why. Well, because they were deciding on it. I mean, Christianity, for you non-history majors, Christ dies in 33, of course, and then it

It wasn't until three centuries later. Council of Nicaea. Well, that's even later, but the 330, I think, or maybe that was when the Emperor Constantine declared. He convened the Council of Nicaea. Right, okay. So that's when Christianity becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire. So it took 300 years. And that's when the Nicene Creed was created. Right. And in those 300 years. There were a ton of debates. First, it was like, you know, Christianity was just,

It was surviving the first hundred years. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church was said by Tertullian in 202. So that's 200 years into it. And they were still martyrs. You know, they were fed to the lions, that shit. And then slowly it catches on the idea that it gets good. And the afterlife was very attractive to an empire that was like a lot of slaves. If you're a slave, this is a good deal.

And so finally in 330, it becomes the official religion. And then you have the church fathers, Ambrose. Augustine of Hippo. Augustine, right. And Jerome. And Augustine is writing in like 430, I think. City of God. Yes. He's writing in the city of Hippo. And...

You know, just the way they, I don't want to call them exactly press agents, but kind of the way they formed the idea of the church in those early centuries. You know, it was something that needed. It needed decisions to be made because when you, our answer would be, which I don't think you'll find overly persuasive. See, I was going to do it right when you were swallowing.

is that when you have something true, you have a lot of bad forces that try to pervert it. And you have to be able to—you have to meet, you have to refine it, you have to clarify it. And, I mean, the idea of the Trinity was one of the most important, one of those debates. Again, you had dualism, modalism, Arianism. You had, I mean, you had Gnosticism, which was a huge debate of the early church. And, of course, it was concluded in Trinitarianism, which—

We would argue. Go ahead. It's just so much arguing about how many angels are on the head of a pin. That wasn't the argument. The arguments were much more consequential than...

Yeah, I guess if you believe— Eschatology, right? Yeah, you know, there's an old saying in comedy, by the premise, by the bit. If you believe the premise that he's God and all the— No, but it wasn't— Then you care whether the foreskin went with him or not. The big debate was like, is Christ God? That was the big one. That was the biggest of them all. And it nearly split the church in five different parts. And the idea of the Trinity was—

decided upon, which we believe to be. In religious, I went to a holy land and they have the Jesus there because they reenact the whole crucifixion. And so I interviewed Jesus and, you know, I hit him with that about like, you know, it's supposed to be very proud. They're very proud that they're monotheistic, you know, like the pagan people. They have many gods. These fucking heathens, these savages. The river, the sun. Yes, from shithole countries. The corn, the dirt. Right.

Crazy people with so many gods. And then you have the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. You can pray to the Mother. I mean, it's just a lot of people involved. It's one Godhead in three parts. The Trinity is very complex. So this is when Jesus said... Oh, yeah. Tell me what he said. He said, and this stopped me in my tracks for a minute because it's the kind of bullshit that makes people go...

And to me, it went, oh, no. Okay, so he said it's like ice. It's like water. Yeah, it's in three parts. Yeah, water, vapor, water, or ice. See, I'm glad I didn't use that one on you. You wouldn't have liked it. Well, Jesus already tried it. Did he say it in Aramaic? But it's a pretty good analogy. No, but that's what we would say. It's the same thing in three different parts, right?

But you know they did add the Holy Ghost like three centuries in because the church needed another boat. Well, look, that's not true. Oh, it is true. There was no Holy Ghost in the beginning. In Matthew 4, Christ is baptized, and it says the Spirit came upon him. The Father says, it's my son, and I am pleased, and he is the son. So you have all three parts of the Godhead right there.

The Holy Ghost is named there? The Spirit. It says the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. Now, it doesn't use the phrase. That sounds like the Lord. Well, then God the Father said, this is my Son in who I am pleased. So three distinct parts of the Godhead. It's the best picture of the Trinity we have. And then in the book of Acts. So they were all in the same room at the same time? Well, in the river, right? I mean, the scene, right? God the Father was there? God the Father was audible, right? Audible. Oh, so he was on Zoom. Yeah, he was phoning it in. Cool.

Christ was being baptized by John the Baptizer and the Spirit of the Lord. Baptizer? John the Baptist? It's actually Baptizer, yeah. That's what they call him now? Yeah, yeah. Is that new? You got to keep up with the times. Is that new? It's a fun, wonky...

Why did they change it? Because it was actually in the, again, this is like so- What's wrong with John the Baptist? It's so insignificant because it actually, in the old Greek, it was a verb. It was the baptizer, the one, it's completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. It's like new Coke. Stick with what works. You know what? It was great. John the Baptist. There's nothing wrong with John the Baptist. It's a great title. And then in Acts, it says the spirit of the Lord came upon the disciples at Pentecost.

Well, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this. Well, thank you. I mean, again, I'm sure there's something that I'm not asking you. I've been an admirer of yours for a while. We're on different planets, obviously, on the spiritual religious stuff. But when you spoke against the woke, that for me was a proving moment. And I have to say something, and this is 100% true. You had more moral courage than pastors that I know that went along with the woke crazy train. And you deserve credit for that because it was of high cost. Until we get rid of that shit,

They're never going to win another election. I agree. They don't, they're not going to take political advice from me. No, but they might from me. They could. And they should. Not the 10%, but that's 10%. But they're very loud. They're very loud, but that's it. And I, you know, as FDR once said, I welcome their hatred.

because they're just, first of all, they have no integrity. They don't ever present the full argument. They just cherry pick. I mean, everybody does it to everybody, so I'm not saying I'm unique here, but that is part of the problem of our discourse is that everybody just wants to forward their narrative. No one is really interested in the full truth, just the truth. Just give me the truth. And that's the crowd I'm going for.

Yes. You know, and... And to be honest, when I go to these campuses and we're drawing these huge crowds, in some ways, we're benefiting from the ways that the old school...

Comics would benefit on college campuses because we're saying the stuff you're not allowed to say. Like we are the rebellion type energy. They must be so thirsty for it. Of course. They're kids. Yes. It's like innate that they want to be, here's something that's not politically correct. Yes, and you think about it. It's like you're a guy on a college campus at any one of these tour stops we're going to, right? Boise State.

University of South Carolina, Oklahoma State University. And they are constantly in this bubble of if I say one wrong word, I could have my entire career ruined. If I say the wrong joke, if I laugh at the wrong thing, if I use the wrong pronoun, they're living in a totalitarian environment, a cultural totalitarian one. Okay.

Okay, you're going to have to stay a little more because I want to ask you about this because now you got me on colleges. And, you know, that's been one of my big— No, no, we've got to talk about this. That's been one of my big fucking targets. Big time. I mean, it was in my book. It was in my special. I called them the mouth of the river from which all the nonsense flows. It is the Wuhan laboratory for the woke. I probably got it from you. I did. I said, if ignorance is a disease—

Harvard Yard is the Wuhan wet market. That was my joke. Now we can say Wuhan lab, but yeah, that's right. Okay. And Trump's going after the colleges now. Which I fully support. Yeah, but as always with his shit, it's not exactly legal the way he's doing it. It's coercive. I am behind the feeling of it.

I'm not sure this is the way to do it. But the feeling of it, yes, they have become places that, and this is, again, one of your big bail-o-wicks. You know, this is one of the places you really got to. I think this has helped you get where you are. They have become places that are two things, not really interested in teaching, just getting a job.

a point of view on the world into the kids' heads, which is not the way it was when I went to college at all. And also just very anti-Western civilization. Completely. And this is Western civilization. And you live in Western civilization. You're soaking in it. You're enjoying it. Yes. All the things that make your life, and especially the life of

of minorities and oppressed people better come from Western civilization. Rule of law, scientific inquiry, freedom of speech, democracy, all the things, women's rights, gay rights. All of it. All of it is Western civilization. And the question is, how do you like

extirpate that from universities without, I mean, going after the research money, it has nothing to do with this. It does and it doesn't. I mean, so first of all, you're right. Let's just start with our agreement. Colleges have become a place where they want everyone to look different but think the same. Their idea of diversity is like, okay, we look at the yearbook photo and everyone has race diversity. Everything has to look like Angelina Jolie's Christmas card. Exactly.

But they all think as if they're at the Democrat National Committee meeting. There's no diversity of thought. There's no heterodox opinion. They tried to get Western civilization taught at Stanford. You know this story well over 15 to 20 years ago, and they removed it. They removed it from the core curriculum.

Really? I'm going to be honest. These places have to be basically burned to the ground. Well, so then this is— Metaphorically. Okay, metaphorically. Yeah. Well— Meaning like, I mean, look, you have—take Harvard.

So you say the research money. First of all, they take 10% to 15% of that in overhead. Why does Harvard, with a $50 billion endowment, need $2 billion in research money? Just ask Harvey the same question. That's a hedge fund with a college attached. Right. That's not a university. Right. Right? I mean, that's something completely different. Stanford, $40 billion endowment. Yale, $35 billion endowment. And look, some of this research is awesome. And I got to agree with you. Some of it, they should do a case-by-case basis.

But a lot of it, though, is this woke stuff that would take your breath away. I mean, research into transgender mice. I mean, it was just the U.S. taxpayer dollars refunding that? See, I called that out on my show. That was bullshit. It wasn't transgender. See, that worries me about you, Charlie. You seem to have swallowed that one whole.

Like a snake does a mouse without looking into it. It was transgenic. Oh, I'm sorry. It was not, but it's hugely different. Transgender, that's just going along with what the mob thinks. It wasn't. He got it wrong, and no one was around to tell him that he got it wrong. He just went with it transphobia.

transgender. It wasn't transgender. It was transgenic. They were studying mice for health reasons, serious cancer-solving reasons, nothing to do with transgender. I stand corrected on that. Okay. But a lot of these universities have

superfluous research departments that are bloated and then go raise your own money for it, is my position. If you want to go do this stuff, go raise your own money. No, of course. So as Christian as you are, you don't want us to be the Christian United States of America. I want to see the body politic become Christian, but I want the Constitution to be our North Star. Not by coercion. No, because that's not love, that's force. Okay. We as Christians believe you should voluntarily use your agency, give your life to Christ. And you...

And you think that someday we all will get on the train there? I don't know if I'm optimistic or pessimistic. I don't know. It's tough. The church rates are going down.

Right. I mean, we're seeing a little bit of a plateauing there. Your side's been winning, Bill, the last 20 years. You know, you're going to be tired of all the winning. That's all I'm going to say. But like, are you cheering for those church rates to go down? Yes. You think it would make the world a better place? I do. Has it made Europe better? The idea that you think we need Christianity as...

as the pillar here to hold up this edifice, that I can't agree with. But I think you could agree that there's a Christian inheritance that is unique. And that's Tom Holland's argument, who's an atheist. That's true. And that there's something we've inherited. Well, what we do know is that the ideas of the Enlightenment were ideas from people who were Christian. I mean, obviously.

Obviously, Rousseau and John Locke and the people here in America. It was very Christian. Yeah, Christian. I mean, Christianity to varying degrees. Again, deism. Again, Thomas Jefferson taking Jesus out of his miracles out of the Bible. But that's the basic tradition. It is a Western tradition that we seem to have to always apologize for. I'm sorry. No.

No, I'm joking. If America was 81% Christian or 81% Islamic, what's a better country? Yes. According to the ideals I believe in, if you think faith, and I know you do, is the most important thing, but I happen to think freedom is the most important thing. Personal liberty. Again, human rights, rule of law,

scientific inquiry, democracy, freedom of speech, all these things which are absent much more in those societies than the society I live in. All right, Charlie. Okay. Charlie. Bill, thank you. That was a real pleasure. Real fun. Thank you. Okay. Tell your friends. Happy Easter, Bill. Happy Easter. He is risen. He is risen indeed. He is risen. He is risen.

Thank you for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure. We wanted to do it for a while. Yeah. And I know you wanted to do this before real time. Yes. But now that we did this, you could do real time. I would love to. I wanted to get to know you. Yeah, yeah. I think it was better this way first. I watch your show almost every week. I mean...

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Plus, treatments start at just $35 a month. Start your initial free online visit today at forhers.com slash talk. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash talk. Tom Pounder products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information.