Katie Couric | Club Random with Bill Maher
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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Hey, Club Random fans. Guess what I did? I wrote a damn book. It's called What This Comedian Said Will Shock You, and it's available for pre-order now where you get your books or at simonandschuster.com. He ended up sending us something all anti-abortion. It was 4.30. I was like, I think we got to run it. Club Random.

Lots of fraternization, a polite way of saying, you know, inner office. And women had to put up with more. Yeah. Not that we've ever done this, but I'm so glad we are. Thank you. Oh, my God. What a treat. You know, it's like because for 20 years before...

Okay, I did hide the cameras in the walls. 20 years before I was using this as the podcast, this was just the party house. Yeah. And I did this just with like, but now I can get you to come and do it with me. Oh my God. So it's like, it's the best thing in the world because this is what I would do midweek. Like I can take one two hour break midweek from my real job at real time to just kick it with somebody

And now I can call you and you actually come. It's so great. I think I would have come if it wasn't a podcast. Exactly. That's the thing about us show people. We only get together mostly like when we work. No, I would have come if there wasn't one. I know, I would too. But don't you think that's true? Like we're all so busy. I guess, I guess. It forces you to like sort of, I don't know, put it on your calendar. Yeah, that's true. You know?

That's true. Anyway, I know you have something to plug. Oh, your big show on HBO, right? I mean, I have a documentary coming out on HBO. I do. That's awesome. But I don't, I mean, we can talk about that. I'm just excited. You know I'm a major fan, Bill. Oh, finish your thought. And you know what I thought would be really fun? I don't know if you'd ever let me, but

I'm sure you wouldn't, but I think you must have, you're obviously so smart and funny, but I also look at the credits and I know you have a lot of writers.

I think it would be so fun to do behind the scenes of real time. Never. Never. First of all, I don't have a lot of writers. I have way less than all other shows always have had. Well, I'm not saying that. No, no, I'm just telling you. Like, I have the most I ever had, which I think is 10, which is like crazy. I used to have six. What is that, by the way? Oh, I'm roofing your drink. I'm like.

I wanted to tell you what kind of show this was. Yeah. I'm Bill Cosby, and I'm just – I know that's what it looks like. Is this Bill After Hours? What's going on here? It's definitely After Hours. It's after appropriateness. This is Jing. Jing. I use it, and I pour it on dog shit. It's this stuff. It's – well, look, I'm doing an ad for it, but it replaces like if you drank diet soda. Uh-huh.

For a while, I was drinking Zevia because that's stevia flavored. Yeah. So it's better than like aspartame. Yeah. But it's, so it's a sugar substitute or sweetness. Right. But this is like better, I think, than Zevia because I talked to- Isn't it stevia? It is stevia. But why is it zevia? Well, this guy says there's also, there's chemicals in the Zevia soda that, you know, probably not like-

one part per trillion or whatever, but I don't want any chemicals. He says this is truly organic and chemical free.

So you put it in what? You just put sparkling water and then you put the Jing in. Can I make you? No, I could. I hope that your crew got me a little Paloma situation. I thought you were going to say your crew got me a little wasted. No. No, that's my job. And by the way, I'm sorry. I know you probably seem like such a Pollyanna. You're the nicest people working with you here.

I have very nice people around me. Same thing as real time. I don't know how it happens. Yeah, you're very lucky. I feel like they all think they have to make up for the snarky host. Maybe. We better extranize just to even out Bill. No, but that says a lot about you, that you have nice people around you. Also, I've had people who, I mean, so many of the people who are on real time have been there longer than 20 years. Wow. I...

I announced at one point that anyone who worked on the two shows together, which one went on and that went on in '93. So I guess this is like around 2010, I said, we've been on real time for a while. Like anyone who's been with me 20 years, I'm going to give you a $20,000 vacation.

Thinking, I guess I didn't think ahead. I didn't think it would be that many people. And it's been a lot of people. Really? Yes. I feel like every week I'm giving away a fucking vacation like that. What am I, Bob Barker? I mean, it's, but I'm happy to do it. But that to me says more than anything, that people just have stayed through three networks, two coasts. You know, I mean. It must be such a fun show to work on. Why would you never want sort of a behind the scenes? You don't want to.

let people into sort of how the sausage is being made or whatever.

How the sausage gets erect. It's more like a marshal. No, yes, that's exactly right. It's funny. I was given this book coming out. I love it, by the way. Oh, I know you gave me the blurb. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. And I have a TL for you. Do you know what a TL is? TL. Okay, it's something weird that we did in my family growing up. It stands for trade last. I don't know if it...

It came from my mom's family, my dad's family, but it's when someone says something nice about you, you pass it on. The way it works, though, and I'm not going to make you do the other part, if I said, hey, Bill, I got a TL for you, and before I gave you the TL, you'd have to tell me something nice someone had said about me.

You don't have to do that. I'm just going to give you a pass and think of one. You owe me a TL. But your TL is, I was on a Zoom with the Aspen Institute today, and I know you're coming to Aspen Ideas, which is very exciting. You're going to be interviewed by Tina Brown, who is curating the whole festival this year. Sell this fucking book. Well, she said, I can't wait to interview you.

Bill Maher, I was reading his book on the plane. It is so great. She said, I couldn't stop laughing. Oh, thank you. What a great plug. Right? Thank you. Isn't that nice? That is a... And she's hard to please. Tina has very exacting tastes. You're not Jewish, are you? My mother is. Oh, mine too. Yeah.

That's right. We have that in common. Yeah, but you were raised Catholic, and I was raised Presbyterian. But I think the Jews call it a mitzvah. Yes, they do. Right? Isn't that a gift? Yes, a little. That's a mitzvah. Yeah. And that was a mitzvah. But, I mean, for me to, like, choose someone who is nice about you would be— I'd need an encyclopedic review of everyone in showbiz. Like, I am—

When people say, oh boy, you know, if you go out, the only people that ever come up to you, people who like you, the people who hate you never say anything. Right, that's true. So they're like, everybody loves you. And I'm always trying to convince people, no, I promise you, everybody does not love me. Lots of people really don't like me. But I feel like everybody really does love you. No, no, everyone doesn't like me. Well, not Sarah Palin. Yeah, not Sarah Palin. And there are a lot, there are a number, I think for the most part,

I'm fairly likable, but there are certainly people who don't. But I think we are witnessing kind of a Billissance. I think you are having a moment. I do. Oh, thank you. And I know this is, I mean, this is your show, not mine, but I think it's really cool. And I was thinking about this on the way over, Bill. Damn, I should have brought that fucking book. You have it.

Oh, good. I have it. It's available. When does it come out? I know it's on the back. It comes out May 21st, but you can pre-order it. I don't have my glasses on. May 21st, but you can pre-order it now. I forgot the language of that. It's really fun. What This Comedian Said Will Shock You by Bill Maher. This is not your first book, though. No. How many books have you written? It's the first...

Well, I mean, I've written two horror books, which are books that are just, I feel like, not horror books, I shouldn't call them that, but like

There were new rules books. So they were just really the new rules. I didn't really have to put a lot of work into it. We just reprinted basically what was... Right. That's fine. Yeah. Because New Rules is a joke book. They're short. They're punchy. You can read it on the toilet. This is the editorials. These are... I worked like a...

Whatever I say won't get canceled for. I worked very hard on this. How long did it take you to write? Well, I took all the editorials we've done. I read through every single one of them and picked out the best ones, redid them, organized them into chapters so it makes sense. So it's like an encyclopedic review of every good fucking thing I've said for 20 years. Wow. It really should be thicker, I know. But I'm sure a lot of it

has evolved through the years, right? - Yes. - So-- 'cause it's very current. That's one reason I did it. I wanted to see, have I changed or have things changed? And what did you discover? - It's mostly things. - Yeah. The left has gotten crazier, I'm not wrong.

And the right, of course, also got crazy, which is even more alarming. But there is so much material on the left because they do do crazy things. Yeah. Did you read, I know you're a fan of Jonathan Haidt. I know he was on. Yeah. You're on Real Time recently and he's written this book, The Anxious Generation. I'm a big fan of Jonathan Haidt's.

And he wrote a really good piece, which I'm sure you read in The Atlantic a few years ago, which is why the last 10 years have been uniquely stupid. Right. And he really wrote about, and I started thinking about this too, just on my way over here, wondering what we were going to talk about. And, you know, one of the things that he talks about is that the voices on social media are

do not represent sort of this. I mean, this is not a newsflash. The center of the country that actually appreciates nuance, that wants to kind of understand and think about things in a critical way. And not hate each other. But it's, yeah, it's like 11%. I forget the statistics, and I haven't read the article in a long time. But on the left and on the right, it's extreme positions of

the loudest voices in the room and on the platform. And so it really is very misleading. Not just the loudest, but the meanest. There's a certain personality type that gravitates to both fringes.

You know what I mean? Yeah. The Stephen Mellors on the right and the, you know, virtue signaling people on the left who just want to catch people at being less pure than they are. And I also think, yeah. They're both of a certain, they're so much more alike.

They're like the serial killer and the detective. We're more alike than you think we are. You know what I mean? Yeah, I also think it's like a tribal thing, you know, that once... It's totally tribal. I also think, believe it or not, not to over-psychoanalyze it, but I think it's actually illustrative of...

of the loneliness and social isolation people feel. - Totally. - And they gravitate to this group thing. And they actually think these people are their friends. They have actually replaced-- - You're so right. - Social media has replaced their social circle. - That's such a good observation. - Right? - That's so true. You're right. You know that's true because OnlyFans, do you know what goes on on OnlyFans? - A little, I've been told.

Oh, did I embarrass America's sweetheart? No. Oh, it's good. No, but it's a lot of, like, yeah, yeah. Well. My daughter used to threaten me that she would go on OnlyFans, but she was kidding. They would tell you that it's a place where content creators can make people aware of

uh anything pottery gardening uh it's men masturbating is what it is it's men masturbating and young girls taking off their clothes and playing with themselves while a baby cries in the next room that's what OnlyFans is and I the New York Times Magazine did a very long deep dive into it and I'm old so like that's what that's why how I know about OnlyFans you know

But they have what they're called chatters. In other words, you're relating... God, I sound like I'm 100...

But see, I'm not a tech person. I have the basics. But I've never been on a website with anyone like that. I'm guessing. I've never used the camera except maybe in a Zoom meeting. I guess I used it then. But I've never done that. But OK, so you've connected through the computer. Again, I sound like I'm 89. Through the computer with this young lady. And-

I thought it was more direct, like an old webcam girl where you're actually talking to each other like in a Zoom. Right. It's not. It's not? No. It's like you're texting and she's texting back because that's how the kids talk. But it's not even her. It's a chatter. It's a fat guy in the Philippines. And the person, the guy who's paying for this, he must know somewhere in his mind.

that this is not really his girlfriend. It's not even her communicating. - Oh, so they just use video of the girl and they have a guy pretending to chat what she would say? - Yes.

Read the article. Okay, I have to. I swear I didn't make that up, though. Yeah, because I thought it was live and that people were truly interacting. Maybe there is that, too. I mean, I think it's everything, but this is how they described it. Oh, interesting. And this is only things? Because some of the girls don't speak English. Yeah, well, that's not surprising, right? That's not surprising at all because we exploit non-English speakers. Hear, hear. It must end. Tonight it must end.

But that goes to your point about the loneliness. I mean, it just blows my mind that guys, and they spend a fortune on it. Well, you know now what they're starting to do. It's funny because I did a six-hour series four or five years ago for Nat Geo, and one of them was on tech addiction. And in San Diego, I went to this whole place that,

that manufactures sex dolls. And with AI, yeah, I mean, it was crazy. And I interviewed a man who had two of them. And I want you to know that you can take them apart and they're dishwashers. They would, yes, they'd have to be. Disgusting. I mean, it is...

Yes, I am. Anyway, so there were these, and you can pick, you know, what color eyes, breast size. There was a whole table, Bill, of nipples that you, you know, could select. You can custom order these nipples.

these, basically these sex dolls. And now with AI, they're implanting stuff in there. And so you can actually carry on a conversation with these. Oh, it's very, very soon going to get to the point where, I mean, men are already largely lost to the female population, especially the young ones.

Because, first of all, they think choking is first base and anal is second. Oh, good Lord. Really. And a lot of this is because of the porn and stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's just very rapey, and it's so funny. We have to be super duper extra, extra politically correct, like through all these other venues, and then it, like, comes out here. Mm-hmm. Like in the porn. Like the porn...

And you know that... Why does it need to be incestuous? Violent. Violent. Not literally violent, but just very disrespectful. I think it is violent. I think a lot of it is violent. That doesn't come on my feed. No, but I did an interview for my podcast about this, about the easy access for...

for especially young men to watch porn starting at like eight, nine, ten years old and how distorting it is... - Oh, I'm sure. - ...for them in terms of relationships and, you know, listen, whatever people want to do, I don't want to sound like a prude, but just the level of...

of misogyny and violence that they are exposed to at an incredibly young age. I'm telling you, this is why, you know, if you talk to young girls, they're like, yeah, guys my age are just impossible. And for the guys, very often they... I've seen documentaries on porn addiction. Like, how can a girl compete with...

Like when they like the porn better. Yeah. When that's, when it starts that young and of course they perfected it. I mean, when I was a kid, this is what I was jerking off to, like a picture like this. Yeah. Yeah. Just a picture like in, in like Life Magazine. Mm-hmm. Like what I had to work with. Yeah.

Well, hopefully you had a Playboy now and then. That came a little later. Yeah. But at first it was just, no, my father didn't get Playboy. Yeah. But didn't you hide them under the bed? I did hide them in the woods. Yeah. But I got them because I stole them babysitting. Oh, God. I stole them from this poor guy who was like, where's that Playboy? You were babysitting the kid? Yeah. Yeah.

What was babysitting? That's what you do when you're like 14 or something. That was like one of my, I always worked when I was a kid. I waked leaves, I shoveled snow, I mowed lawns. Like I was a worker bee. I've always been a worker bee. I think you're the same way. Yeah. You're very. I've always worked too. Don't we have a similar birthday also? My birthday is January 7th. 20th. Oh, okay. That's fine. So we're both. Capricorns. Capricorns.

I'm on the cusp. You're on the cusp. My husband's birthday is January 21st. Oh. You're very close to him. Yes. Wow.

And Jesus was one of us, right? Yes. Jesus was a Capricorn. Jesus was a Capricorn. Remember that? Sounds like a Chris Christopherson song. I think it was, actually. Wasn't it? No. Was it an album? Was there an album? Jesus was a Capricorn? I feel like it should have been. I feel like it, yeah. But, you know, maybe it was. Yeah. I don't know. At a certain point, disc full, you know, that kind of thing. I know. Do you ever go to think of something and you're like, oh, man.

I knew that five years ago. Yeah. It hadn't been activated in so long that it slipped out of, but I remember knowing about it. I do remember when I did know. Are you starting, this is weird to make us feel really old, I'm starting to have a little bit of trouble with names. Are you at all? I always sucked at names. Really? You know, every year you...

make your New Year's resolutions, and I always say, I'm going to do the ones from 75, because there have been ones that have been on my list for 40 years. Yeah. And that is one of them. When someone says their name, make a note to remember it. I've done it. I can do it. And I just forget. I just...

I just forget to do that. And it's just always terrible to be like, I'm sorry, tell me your name again. But these are people like I've known. Mitch McConnell. Yeah, but I've known. And I'm like, and I know well. Well, what we do all have, all of us. Overload? Yeah, well, yeah, sometimes. Yeah.

But I don't think that's a bad thing. Stress is life. Life is stress. I mean, you can't get rid of all of it and you wouldn't want to. If you were unoccupied, that would be the worst kind of stress. I agree. For a type A like you, please. After all you've accomplished and achieved and where you are, especially, you know, you work this hard to get where you are, use it. Now you're at the top of your game. You're smarter than ever because we do get smarter. Yes, we do lose money.

you know aging is always a trade-off system you know and we do lose a certain um

I couldn't work for like 14 hours straight like I maybe once could writing or something. But I think that is made up with wisdom and learning your craft better. But we do lose, I think, a little bit of-- and the name for it is aphasia, when you can't remember a word.

there's an extreme version of it, I think, which is really sad. Right, I think that's what Bruce Willis is. They call, they use it that, but the common use of the word aphasia is just something that happens to everybody at every age. It happened to me when I was young too. Sometimes you just can't remember a word and it's always embarrassing because it's a common word and then you have to define it in the sentence, which, you know,

You know, if we could just find a way to that big ball in the sky, the sun, yes, the sun. No, it's not. But really, you forget the words. And it happened the other day, and I was like trying to think of, as I'm like fumphing along and vamping. Is this on the show? No, no, no. This is just talking to somebody. And the word I was searching for was gravitate, to gravitate towards an opinion or something. And it just didn't come to me.

for two seconds, and then it did. Right. But, you know, is that age? But you have a little teeny bit of panic when you can't remember something like that, right? A little bit? What's one reason I love this? Because I don't have that here. Yeah. This is just really who we are. I'm always on this show saying, what were we talking about? And I don't care because it's real, and that's what I was going for, but I would never do it on real time. No. It would be inappropriate.

And that's not what that show is, and that's not who I am on that show. That's another side of me, my main side. Yeah. This is my mistress. That's my wife and my kids.

So which do you enjoy doing more? Well, I mean, that's like saying, which kid do you like better? Yeah. I mean, they're so different. Like, I couldn't get away with this kind of thing there. And I also want the challenge of, I mean, there's nothing I love more than writing the things that went into that book, those editorials at the end. I spent all week on it with my writers. But, you know, that's kind of my baby. And it's like a little, you know, eight minutes from 20 hours of work.

And I want it to be, you know, funny and also saying something no one's heard before. And, you know, it's a challenge every week. I emailed you because I really, really loved one of your editorials. And I know in the book you say you want people to be like, yeah, wait, what? But in this case, I really, you know, you want to challenge people and they're kind of,

Right. Orthodoxy. But I just watched, this was a few weeks ago. This must have been maybe six weeks ago. And I loved what you had written so much. I emailed you and I said, it was so great. It was, I don't, I should have rewatched it, but.

Yes, I remember getting the email. I appreciate it because, you know, when you're on TV for 30 years, people do take you for granted in the sense that, like, they just don't, you know, not everybody can. Everybody who's a fan is not going to email you after every show. So, you know, it's so nice when you get one. It's another mitzvah. You're just full of mitzvahs. Well, you know, I think that I have probably a better understanding than the average viewer of,

of what goes into those shows. Of course you do. What goes into your initial interview when you're talking to whoever's come on? What goes into doing your panel discussion? And, you know, I think now that media is so ubiquitous, everybody thinks they're a journalist and can do interviews. Right. And it really does employ a very specific skill set to kind of...

to be a really good listener, to be able to take the conversation where it goes, to make sure that each person is, that one person isn't dominating the conversation. It's hard to talk about this without sounding snobby, but I also have an obligation to my viewers to keep the bond I've always kept and keep it real. And keeping it real, I have to say,

There's too many podcasts. And just because you can make words come out of your mouth doesn't make you an interviewer.

And I know that's going to say, oh, Bill, you know, why can't we all... Well, you can't all. I can't sing, okay? I don't pretend I can. So I just wish about 3.9 million of the podcasts that are out there, of the 4 million... There are like 680,000 or something. Isn't that insane? No, there's 4 million. Is that true? Yeah, I was just told that fact yesterday.

Well, it is gross. And it was in a show business office. Really? Yes. Four million? Four million. Oh, good Lord. Because it doesn't cost anything. Yeah. You know, there's no downside. What's the downside? Nobody watches? But the thing is, like, 5,000 people here, 5,000 people there. You know, it just dilutes the whole audience. I mean, everyone, we're such a niche society. I know.

I remember when I was living in New York and you'd pass all the newsstands. This is in the 90s when there was newsstands and a million magazines. And they would have, speaking of porn, they'd have like 100 different, just in the porn division, shaved Asian people.

you know, jugs. Big butts. Big butts. Subscriber? Yeah. Like, just such specific. And I feel like that epitomized for me where the society was going. Like, everybody gets to be famous for 15 minutes, like Andy Warhol said. Everybody has their own channel. And so it's very hard to get

communally the whole country, you know, when the whole country absorbed Ed Sullivan or something that was taken in by young, old, everybody in the family, they had some communal references. And now that's almost like it's very uncool to the young to have any communal references with us dinosaurs. I know. Well, I'm right there with you because look, when I started at the Today Show, it was 1991.

If you wanted to know the news that morning, you watched a morning show, one of the three morning shows. You listened to NPR, your local radio station. You picked your newspaper off your front step in front of your door. Yes, you did. And there was this kind of communal feeling that everybody was getting basically nothing.

similar information. Of course, then there would be niche stuff, or like if Sports Illustrated or-- but even-- there weren't that many niche or glamour magazine, right? I mean, so segments were differentiated that way. But it was just-- it was so different. And now it's like shattered glass and all different demos listening to different stuff. But then segmentation within

demographics within, you know, I mean, it's just so disparate and it's really changed so much. And I think, you know, yes, it's more democratized and people who weren't represented or didn't have an outlet or couldn't, you know, it was dominated by a certain type of person. I'm all for that. But it's almost, it's really...

I think, for us to have common ground. And I do think it's contributed to this intense polarization. And of course, you create your own media. Like I read growing up Time Magazine, The Washington Post, because I grew up outside of D.C. I watched the local news. 60 Minutes. Yeah, 60 Minutes. Which you were then on. Yeah. And then I'd watch the evening news. Not that much. We weren't as...

a super newsy family. My dad would read the Washington Post. We were. You were? My father was in news. My father was a radio newsman. He was? Yes. Where? In New York? New York. What was he doing? The Mutual Broadcasting System. Oh, you're kidding. And then WOR. Oh, wow. And then when he retired from reading the news at the top of the hour, he was an editor. Oh, that's... Well, my dad was a journalist too. He worked for...

The Atlanta Constitution. First, he worked for the Macon Telegraph. He's from Georgia. The Atlanta Constitution, then United Press before it was UPI. And then he went into PR. But that's funny that we have that in common. We're like the sister from another mother. I know we are. There's something weird with the Jewish mother. Yeah. But, you know, it's very hard to...

get a holistic take on the news. I mean, I still really focus on traditional media. I still read the Times. I read, I try to read The Economist because I think it's interesting to get the view from across the pond, if you will. I don't trust anyone. You don't trust anyone? I don't trust anyone that's giving me the full story.

Everyone is giving me their spin on the story, including the places that used to be, I thought, fairly neutral. Yeah. Like CNN and the New York Times, I think, used to be a lot more neutral.

And now what should be on the front. You think they're more sort of activists? Yes. I mean, you can always slant any story. Well, and they always were to a certain extent because they've always been written from the perspective of the person who was writing, unless it was just a very who, what, when, where, why story, right? I mean, there's no...

such thing as true objectivity, right? I remember my father having this-- my earlier memories of my father and me talking about something. Maybe I was asking about his profession. But I couldn't have been more than 10. And I remember him telling me, like, what you're exactly saying, that everything is

is the bias comes through somehow. And I remember the examples he used. He said, like, if you say he squawked about it, as opposed to he said, and then he said, Robert Kennedy, you know, who at the time, so this must have been before 68 when he was, I was definitely under 12. He said, Robert Kennedy, you know, if you like him, he's dedicated. If you hate him, he's ruthless. And, yeah.

Yeah, but it got worse. No, I agree. Like everything else, it got worse. Yeah. And it got to the point where each side thinks they...

have to load their issue because we can't really be trusted with both sides. Because the other side is so powerful and such an existential threat. They both think the other side is an existential threat. So we just have to do everything we can. We can't trust them to make sure they have the one true and correct opinion. But don't you think things changed so dramatically, Bill,

when Donald Trump arrived on the scene. Absolutely. Because, you know, listen, I've covered elections and presidents and I was thinking about it. You know, there's always been, you know, policy differences, but a basic level of, of course, people are going to twist or shape facts to meet their, you know, to match their ideology or help persuade people that they're right.

But I think when Trump arrived on the scene, the decorum was gone, sort of this level of basic decency evaporated. And, you know, just complete falsehoods. So I think it— Yes, for me, it was an impossible choice. For a place like CNN, I have total sympathy with them for that. It was an impossible choice. Either you pretend—

that this is just the other side of normal, left-right, Republican, Democrat. Or you start calling him a liar. Now, I tried to...

I mean, I'm on CNN now. Right, right. On Saturday night, they rerun the show. Yeah, we've been, for the last six months, we were on After Time, but now we're on the whole show. I mean, I think the world needs a great CNN, so I'll do everything I can to help that organization. And they still do some great stuff. They do. And have some great people, and I still tune to it when something happens. Okay, but I said,

You tried this. You tried having people like Jeffrey Lord and Kayleigh McEnany. And that didn't work because, well, I mean, then you're basically giving voice to election deniers. Okay. But to me, the way you deal with Trump is this. Okay, remember the town hall he had on CNN about six months ago, and the audience loved it.

The audience loved it. I mean, you can hate this. It was stacked with Trump supporters. Well, they said Republicans and independents. That's what they said. Okay, maybe it was. How'd they get in? If they did, that's on CNN. Yeah, I agree. I think it is on CNN, and the vetting process was— Well, then you've got to get a better audience person. Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. That's like the person who handed the gun to Alec Baldwin.

Yeah. You know, got to get good people in all these positions. I agree. Okay, so if that was about, whatever, if it was, here's what happened. Here's what people saw in America. They saw Trump killing it, killing it with the crowd. Then you come to a panel of six people who all just do nothing but dump on him and call him a liar. And America goes, oh, didn't you just see Trump?

That we like him? He's not a stand-up comedian. What? He's killing it. He's not a stand-up comedian. No, but popularity, it doesn't matter. The people loved him and what he was saying. And then you cut to a panel of six know-it-alls.

in Washington who just do nothing but talk about the negative. And like, I'm all in on the negative. No one's been harder on Trump than me. But I get it, and I'm bored with it. And there's a different way to do this, I think, which is to... So what is it? Not to defend Trump, but to defend the people who...

still vote for him because what they see on the other side to them is even more dangerous because it's very closer to home. My kid is coming home from school and he thinks he's a racist. He's five. What have you been telling him? You know? My son thinks maybe he's not a boy, and maybe that's true. That happens. But those kind of things are what they say

That's why I'm voting for Trump. A backlash to the pendulum swinging so far to the left. Conservative guy once said to me, what you don't get about Trump is we don't like him either. Now, that's not true for all people. There are people who just love his dirty draws, and they are dirty. But lots of people, it's like that. We don't like him, but he's all that stands between us and madness.

That's their view. I would like that view presented, that view. Don't say, not election deniers, but just try to understand why even the election denying thing is not a deal breaker for these people. And I think they're wrong. Mm-hmm.

But I don't hate them. And they're not stupid. You're saying it's cultural issues that should be interrogated. Lots of crazy shit in society that's going on that makes no sense. And I talk about it in the opening of the book. In the book, I know. You talk about it on the show all the time. Yes. I did the whole thing on Mr. Beast. And, you know, Mr. Beast thinks a disability is something that needs to be cured. Yes, it is something that needs to be cured. Things like that.

you know, the homeless, keeping them on the street and, you know, fighting for their right to be on, instead of just making sure that they have a place to, it's crazy, this crazy shit every day in the news. And it's always that kind of stuff from the left and the stuff from the right, of course, is even more dangerous. But we're just talking about talking to people, half the country that I don't want to hate. And I don't hate, I don't want to hate. And

In fact, I want to talk to and I want to get in my audience. And when I do stand up now, I do have a much more mixed audience. I don't know if they're full on Trumpers, but some of them. And there should be. It's half the country. They're not going to self-deport. Right? So how do you think, you know, this Ronna McDaniel, I'm curious how you felt about NBC. Perfect question. Exactly. That's the issue right there. Election denier.

Not only election denier, a little bit of a meddler, right? Wasn't she? I think she also said that January 6th was sort of... A festival? Well, fair dialogue. I can't remember. I should get the right... Or when it sounds fair, they got out of hand. She kind of...

you know, soft-pedaled that whole thing. Right. And apparently was very, very difficult to reporters who were just trying to get information. I don't know enough about her, but I know that she did say the election was rigged. And so NBC is in this position. So how do you find someone who represents Trump voters who feel his policy, to your point,

his policies may be better than the others in some cultural senses, if that's how they feel. How do you find someone who represents... I mean, with him, it's not even policy, because you can't even talk about policy with Trump because he never really has one. He just says whatever is at the top of his head. Yeah. I think the biggest mistake people make about Trump is anyone ever thinking he planned anything. It's all just whatever at the very moment...

comes to him that will make people nod their head in agreement. He pulls statistics and events out of his ass completely. It's just he doesn't care. They fact check it. He doesn't care. He'll just say whatever it is. The murder rate is about 40% higher than it was...

It's not. It's 2%. You know, it just doesn't matter. And he doesn't care. He said that thing to Billy Bush that time when Billy Bush confronted him. Right. You know, Donald, you keep saying the apprentice is number one. It's not even close. You just say it, Billy. You just say it. People believe it. That's who we're up against. If you're tired of cycling through ineffective skin care trends and overcomplicated routines...

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So did you say that you started on the Today Show in 1991? Uh-huh. Okay, that's odd that my mind is playing tricks on me because we met then. Uh-huh. But I thought it would have been in the 80s because I did, Brian Gumbel came to my apartment in West Hollywood in 1985. I guess they wanted to do some sort of rising star, you know, really. You sat on my little- That was you? Yeah.

That was me. That is so funny. I sat on my little shitty couch in my little shitty apartment in West Hollywood. And in 1985, I had this sitcom, Sarah, that had just gone on the air. Yeah. You know, they're always looking for fresh meat. Yeah. And that was when Jane Pauley was the co-anchor.

Okay, okay. So then I must have done the Today Show when you were there. Yeah, I think you did. I think you usually talk to Bryant. I have to tell you the funniest story, though. This is really true. And this is all my fault.

Yeah. I'm sure. First of all, I am not a morning person. Yeah. Like, I'm a comedian all my life. I hear you. I'm not a morning person either. So to do anything in the morning, I'm just in the most horrible mood. And...

I just also, I was a lot younger and just, I mean, I was nervous. But I was in the makeup chair and you were there and probably said hello. And I probably was like, I just not. Anyway, I'm looking at, I'm still in the makeup chair. You go and I see you. You're standing like on the stage, but I could see it. They're doing it on the monitor because you're probably shooting promos or something. And I see you go to Brian Gumbel. I meant Bill Maher. He's a real charmer. Yeah.

I said that? Yes. And you were totally right. I mean, I was completely charm-free. But I saw it on the monitor. Oh, God, that's funny. Isn't that great? That is funny, yeah. But, yeah, I probably did because I was friends with Brian. Yeah. You know, he's a guy's guy. He is a guy's guy. He is a guy's guy. You got that right. He is. You know, I really, I mean...

he was prickly uh but i really i mean what a talent what a talent i mean my god he's he is such a seamless broadcaster right eloquent oh i mean when that countdown would happen five four three two one he would just hit it no hit it perfect smooth as silk right silk complicated guy though and great looking you know when you when i mean

Very natty dresser. No. Yeah, he's a really talented guy, incredibly smart. But yes, I would say definitely. I think he's mad at me. Is he? Well, I used to hear, I think, you know, I never know. And I love him. I always love him. Well, reach out to him. Oh, I will. You know, that's a good idea. But I mean, nothing. And I could be wrong. He could be just busy. But I feel like he used to...

You know, yes, more and write about the show. And look, I'm not going to lie. I have lost a percentage of fans, I would say, in the last 10 years, five, 10 years, something like that, and gained a, I think, bigger chunk. I've gained, I've lost some from the far left and gained a lot more in the middle. And I'm cool with that.

I don't think Bryant would. I don't know. I'm just saying. Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah. Great. I hope it's not that. You should reach out. Why don't you reach out to him? I'm going to.

He got mad at me because I was doing something... I've got a great memory, Katie. ...on maternity... Don't go by this. ...maternity leave, and he was giving me endless shit for taking, like, a month or two off. I was having my first baby. Yeah, I could see that. And he was like, why don't you just, like, drop it in the field and come back to work right away or something? I mean, it was really...

But that sounds like he was kidding. No, he was kidding, but he was giving me a lot. He was goofing on me, but giving me a lot of shit. But it was emblematic of sort of an incredibly sexist attitude. Look, I mean, Matt Lauer was also in that stable at that time, was he not? In that era? Yeah.

Sorry? That era of NBC morning news? Yeah, he was the newsreader. Well, obviously there was a tradition of an old boys network. Yes.

Yes. I mean, not the... Plus the more reason, and, you know, I mean, you know this, Bill, because you and I are contemporaries. It was a very different environment. Very different. Very different. And lots of fraternization, a polite way of saying, you know, inner office. And women had to put up with more. Yeah. They just did. Yeah. I mean, you know, not to...

get all fuzzy and lifetime channel about it, but people like you and Barbara Walters are, you know, just like women comedians of a certain age. You have to really tip your hat to them because it was harder.

Yeah. You know? It was. It was harder. There are certain things that made things harder for certain people. Obviously, racially, that's our biggest sin in this country and forever. That was certainly the case and to a degree today, also sometimes, and also sometimes in reverse today. So things have changed a lot. But absolutely, I mean, if you're anywhere near my age, I am sure that you had to put up with some Roger Ailes stuff

Type.

Yeah. You know, even if it wasn't overt and even if it wasn't like, fuck me, because you were already too successful when you were young for them to pull that shit on you. But they still, there's like a thousand cuts, people. Yes, yes. I don't want to use the word microaggressions. Right. But if you think of the true definition, it was replete with microaggressions if you want to think about it. And they do add up. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, we're all sensitive people. It's amazing. I mean, I've made fun of the term and, you know, people can't obviously take it too far. But, you know, when I think about sometimes some little thing that I will, you know, catch myself thinking about two hours later, I'm like, shut up. If there's one phrase that like I say to myself in my head more than any other, it's shut

Really? Shut the fuck up. You mean like after the fact? Like if you're just obsessing on some stupid thing and then you catch yourself. And I just am always going, shut the fuck up, head. Stop thinking. And I do. You know, sometimes it takes a few times to yell at yourself. So, you know, I think, yes, you can be microaggressed. But...

Okay, so that was 1991. And then my other memory of us working together, also kind of funny. That's so funny that you heard me say, met Bill Maher, he's a real charmer. Met Bill Maher, he's a real charmer. And it was Sato Voce also, which was so funny about it, is that you were saying it as if you were pulling off this subterfuge.

Because, you know... I guess I should learn that I probably didn't realize I was miked at the time. But again, you were completely right. You were 100% correct in your assessment of my charm-free demeanor. What did Brian say when I said it? Do you remember? That I don't remember. Yeah. That I don't remember. I'm amazed I remember that. But I do remember that clearly. But okay, so...

What year did you do the CBS Evening News? 2006 to 2011.

Okay, wow. So I was at the Today Show for 15 years. Right. And then Les Moonves came calling and... Les Moonves. Oh my God, yeah. Let's tell the people who are not show business aficionados and not everyone is, hey, I don't know everything about the smelting industry. If the conversation turned to smelting, I would hope someone would have the courtesy to explain to me. Les Moonves was sort of the biggest swinging dick and...

Well, he was the head of CBS. CBS, yeah. But CBS then was bought by Paramount. Paramount. So did he have a bigger portfolio than just CBS? Was he ever the head of? I don't think so. He wasn't the head of the studio, right? No, no. Oh, that was Brad Gray. Yeah, and then wasn't it Philippe somebody? I don't know. I can't keep up with all this stuff. But anyway, he had a huge job. Hugely powerful. Incredibly successful, very powerful person.

had started off as an actor, a little slick. Yes, nice looking guy. But nice looking guy and very nice. And well, people make fun of me when I say people are nice. Like I told my husband, Barry Diller's really nice. And he's like, I'm not sure that's the adjective a lot of people would use to describe Barry Diller. Les Moonves was so nice to me and a true fan. Really? Maybe that's not a great thing.

But people have different sides to them. Yeah. Okay, so we tried to fucking...

The weirdest thing about Les, well, so anyway, he was on top of the world. CBS was number one. I mean, the guy could do no wrong. And then, of course, comes Me Too and the most, and actresses sort of saying he accosted them, assaulted them in his office. But the worst one was the doctor. Yeah.

Okay, explain this to me, Bill. Oh, I was going to have you explain it to me. I can't because... I can't either. He jerked off in the doctor's office after... I think he tried to...

come on to this doctor yes and apparently she somebody i met out here knows her and she talks pretty freely about it right and she was rebuffed his advances right and so he jerked off in the exam room well okay but what the first of all this is not unique we see this pattern um

Harvey Weinstein. In the potted plant. This Bill Clinton, to a degree. I think Monica Lewinsky, there was some... I don't think... I think that was a different situation. Well, what I mean is like finishing your sexual experience with a masturbation. I mean, or using masturbation as the plan B, like...

Well, my first choice was to take you to dinner and have you fall in love with me and want to fuck me. But that's when you have some... Plan B was I rape you. And plan C, if that doesn't work, is I jerk off into an object in the room. Yeah. So there...

I'm just saying this is a pathology, not just of one. Right. I mean, men are fucking... And didn't Louis C.K. do that as well? Well, I... I'm such a fan of... Louis is certainly in the broad masturbation category, but I feel like that's different because, well, he's a comedian. And he did it in front of a bunch of female comedians, right? Yes. He also asked...

I mean, I think that was-- And they said OK? Well, Sarah Silverman wrote a story about it. You could read it. She said-- I thought it was such a great, honest thing, as she always is. And she said, you know, some days I thought it was funny. And other days I was like, Louie, no, what?

So that's human nature. Some days you want to watch a guy jack off in a dressing room before a show, and some days you don't. I don't know. Look, the whole thing is so weird to me. Are you friendly with Louis? Very much so. He sort of has made a comeback, right?

Not as much as he should be able to, because I do think there should be a, first of all, there's no consistency on Me Too punishments. People have done way worse things, way worse than Louis C.K. and got nothing. So there's that. But there's also, you know, how long does the punishment last? Forever. Now, can he play anywhere in the world? Yes, stand up.

Or sell his movies directly. Yes, but like he couldn't even do this because it'll start the, you know, how dare you machine as if he's Kanye with the Jews or something. It's ridiculous. The people making the rules about it are fucking teenagers. The, you know, who's pure enough rules. So they make no sense. So, you know...

Come back, yes, but he should be fully able to. A studio should, if he had movies, you know, he was moving toward more of that in his career, Woody Allen-esque. Right, right. You know, directing and, you know, maybe minor roles, maybe not always the lead in his movies. And the last one I saw was quite good, I thought. But, you know, you had to, like, order it directly. I mean, that's one way to do it. But it's like, why? And by the way, why does Woody Allen...

Not get to, no, maybe he's too old to work anyway, but. He's 88. He just had a movie come out. I was just reading about this this afternoon. That's a French movie. And yeah, it was sort of a whole piece on,

Can you love the art if you don't respect the artist type thing? You know, Picasso, Woody Allen. I respect the artist and the man. I don't think he committed that crime that there was two police investigations that exonerated him. I mean, like, what do you have to do in this country?

you know, all these actors who won't work with him anymore, some of them made movies with him, I regret doing that, what a bunch of pussies. Okay? First of all, it's a very improbable crime that they're accusing him of. Plainly, the other party had motivation and was vindictive. If you saw the documentary about it, it was all from her point of view.

So first of all, I just flat out believe him. I believe a 57-year-old man didn't suddenly become a child molester in the middle of a divorce proceeding and a custody battle in a house full of adults in broad daylight. There were some pretty damning—

I don't know. We don't know. I don't either. I don't know. I definitely don't know. But there was some pretty sketchy and damning things in that documentary that were separate from just Mia Farrow and Ronan Farrow and Dylan making the case. And that was just... That certainly raised some, I think, legitimate questions. He had...

relationship with the high school student do you remember I mean did you watch the doc yes yes I don't remember that the high school student and there was a woman yeah when he was old yeah not soon ye no no way before that

And, you know, wanting his girlfriend to dress up in little anklets and Mary Janes and baby doll dresses. You think he's the only guy who likes that? Really? You think he's the first guy who wanted his girlfriend to dress in anklets and baby doll dresses?

believe through an issue of Penthouse magazine. That's what we grew up on. We find it sexy. You know, peacocks have plumage. We do things to arouse the opposite sex. That doesn't make you a pervert. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm not, I don't know. No, I don't either. That's the thing. We definitely don't know. I just don't know. My point is that if you don't know and you have been exonerated by the law,

Then the powers that be in the virtue world are just saying, we don't care. It just feels right that you're wrong. Elkin Abramowitz is a friend of mine, and he was his lawyer, and he has told me this is not true. But then it's just very hard to...

to figure it out look we both keep saying i don't know i think your i don't know is like a 50 50 and mine is like a 90 10. i find it very improbable do i know no is it possible anything's possible um and what do you make of the of the fact that his brother-in-law this is never brought up in the thing but mia farrow's brother was an acu was a convicted child molester did you know that

Yes. It's interesting how that one never gets out. That's what I mean about I don't trust him. I know the person who directed that film, that documentary. Oh, yeah.

Well, it should have been called Mia's story. Yeah. I didn't mind them doing it, but don't call it, what was it called? What, uh, Alan versus Farrow. Yeah, Alan versus Farrow, which implies a court hearing, and in a court hearing, the defense gets to rise and make their case. That didn't happen here. So that is not a Alan versus Farrow. That's Mia's story, which is fine. Do that. Be honest about it. Call it that, you know.

All right. Back to the 80s. Man, did you ever think we'd still be? How old are you? 68. Ah, finally, someone older than I am. I always say that. I'm 67. I know. Crazy, right? Crazy. But I remember my mother's telling me, she must have been in her 70s at the time, and she said, yeah, I loved my 50s and 60s the best. And I thought, what?

And now I kind of get it. Yeah. You know, because you're just not dumb. Like you were. See, women mature so much faster. So you don't really have that issue as much. But men, it takes forever. Really, really, it takes a much longer period of time, I think, generally. I think it takes a long time for women to feel truly confident, though. Confident, yes. You know, and...

You know, I'm such a pleaser that it took me a long time. And my husband will tell you I'm still a pleaser, and I'm sure I have that characteristic still inside me. But I don't care as much what people think of me. And I also think if you don't, if you please everyone, you are just a fake or so banal and have no... Right. No...

sort of moral compass even, you know what I mean? So I have, as I've aged, stopped caring so much what people think of me. I feel the same way, but probably in both our cases, but much more so in yours, it's because you already achieved your iconic. So like, you can't really do better at 67 than that. That to me is like the ultimate. So like, what could anyone say? It's like, hey,

I already got to the finish line. I'm already this entity that, you know, was... I don't really think of it that way. I don't see myself that way. Yeah, we often don't see ourselves that way. But that is how, you know, I'm telling you, that's... I think you know that. Well, I think I... You've been around a long time. You always stayed relevant. You always stayed on, you know,

I think-- I mean, this will get a lot of people watching. Really? Of course, because podcasts are completely guest-driven. Like, you get a certain number who will watch me, no matter who it is, which I love those people the most. But then it's just very much-- it's not like TV, where it's the same audience every week. It's like, it's very driven by who the guest is. So this will do great, because-- and even young people, I think they know who you are. I think it's funny, because--

I do think I benefited from the era in which I grew up and worked because a lot of young kids watch me in the morning getting ready for school, right? While their moms were, or dads were making breakfast or whatever. Is that right? Yeah. Wow. Because it was a very...

Yeah, and it was almost I was weirdly a part of their family for some families who watch the Today Show. That kind of show, yes. You know what I mean? You're like in their homes, in their intimate moments at the first part of the day. And they also, you know, I mean, I feel like it's true with your show too, but people would say, I feel like I know you. And I'd be like, well, you actually kind of do. I say the same thing. Yeah, you see me in serious situations, funny, funny.

sad, you kind of... And also, we're not really putting on an act of any kind. That's the difference between a comedian and an actor. Sometimes people, they misrecognize you and they're like, oh, you're an actor. And I'm like,

Close, but no. Yeah. I'm kind of the opposite of an actor. I was an actor. I mean, I did acting in the 80s. That's why these brilliant movie posters are here. Wait, you had a funny one where the actor looked like you last week. Oh, yes. What movie was that? It was Body Double. Yeah, Body Double, Brian De Palma, right? Yes. Craig Wasson was the actor who, when I first started, yes, they thought I was him. Oh, that's funny.

But I think people know you less because you're a comedian and more when you have conversations with people. Yeah, you can't help that. Because I think there are a lot of comedians who, if that's all they do, I don't feel like I really know them. You know, if they just did stand-up and stand-up alone. Right. But it's because we see you in all these different situations interacting with people. And that's what I think develops this parasocial relationship with viewers, you know? So...

So my point is what I said earlier, Bill, about like, you know, we didn't have that paradox of choice when I was working. There was a limited number of outlets and I could become well known where today I think there are a lot of anchors on a variety of from a variety of places that could walk through an airport and nobody would know who they are. Right. You know, just because they don't.

They don't have that position in the culture. And it's not because they're not good or not likable. It's just that there's so many of them. And that's the thing why somebody gets to be iconic, because trust. You know, people, the people that wind up in those jobs and last in those jobs like you had, they, you know, the people are really trusting you.

They're like, yeah, you are in my bedroom and the kitchen and the kids are around. And, you know, I don't want anything stupid to crawl out of your mouth. Yeah. You know, it's such a tightrope you have to walk between, like,

You know, not offending either side. Oh, here's the funny story I was going to tell you. So, okay, this must have been 2006, because when you first went on with CBS Evening News, before the show was even on, there was an idea. I don't know if it came from you, but we got the call. It was very exciting. Oh. You remember this? Yeah. Like, you wanted to do a segment on, like, you had a guest on,

And basically do what I do at the end of my show and do a little piece. So I was very flattered. And then we went through the process with the people who were producing it. And we never did it because it's so funny. You said to me, like, whatever you think. You know, we just want to hear points of view. Of course, everything I said was too outrageous for them. And when I turned it on, it was, what's the name of the guy who...

Who did, when we ate all the McDonald's. Oh, oh, oh, I know. I know. Morgan. Morgan. No, not Morgan Freeman. Morgan. Would have been so good with Morgan Freeman. You're right. Something and me or something like that. Yeah. Right. He ate.

McDonald's for a month. Yeah. Oh, I think for like a year maybe. Morgan Sperling. Sperling. Sperling. Yeah. Morgan Sperling. Morgan Sperling. Yes. Yes.

Okay, so anyway, it was a very good documentary. It was very funny. Yeah, no, it was a good doc. And I think he did some other good things. But this thing was just, it was the most, like, no one could disagree with it, and therefore, it was just like, why can't we all be nice kind of thing? And it was like the most innocuous, and I was like, oh, they took her idea and,

And they shit all over it until it was just absolutely nothing. And yeah. So this is what happened. I tried. I really wanted to do it. Thank you. Thank you. No, it was thank me. It was 2006. The show had only been on three years. It was not like some sort of cultural institution. I was nervous about my future. And oh, CBS Evening News wants to, yes, that's a great legitimizer. So I really wanted to do it.

But, you know, atheism, no. Pot smoking, no. Whatever I suggested was like, no, that's too controversial. But she said, that's what you want to do. You know, it was so interesting. So I got hired at CVS by the aforementioned Les Moonves. Oh, yeah, Les Moonves. And he wanted me to...

mix it up. He thought this sort of stentorian, like, good evening, voice of God thing was dated and just not... It was dying, right? And so I came in there and...

I was like, what can we do that's interesting and maybe, you know, we'll get some attention? And I was thinking of like the editorial page in a newspaper. Wouldn't it be interesting if we did actual kind of mini op-eds by people? That's what it was. Yeah. And so it was called Free Speech.

And it wasn't. And it wasn't. And part of it is we didn't have the bandwidth. I think it was overly ambitious. I wanted to do it like once a week. You know how the public affairs person for local news used to back in the day kind of give a little editorial and they would say editorial on the screen. I don't know if you remember that, but they did that in local news in D.C. And somebody, one of the executives said, oh, let's do it every night.

And I knew that would be a disaster, but I was like, eh. And we didn't have the management or the bandwidth to really oversee it. And then somebody whose son had been killed, I believe in Columbine, I reached out and said, there must have been a shooting. And I said, do you want to use this opportunity to do, you know,

talk about that, he ended up, ended up sending us something that was all about all anti-abortion. Like it, it was so off topic. And I was like, what do I do? We call this free speech and this is going to really like make people crazy. And I was like, it was four 30, you know, the show started at six 30. I was like, I think we got to run it.

And I got so much shit from so many people. Right. But I wrote about this in my book. I said free speech was no more or something. It's a great moment in learning about that tension that we have. Everybody thinks that they want the truth, and they don't.

That's my whole life. Yeah. They say it. And like, look, I'm the luckiest person ever. I love my job more than anybody loves their job. And they've let me do it for a very long time. But I mean, it is a constant tightrope to like say what you really believe.

and also not lose your job. Yeah. Or just alienate so many people. Like I said, I have lost people. I mean, sometimes I can tell when I meet them. Really? Yes. Something has changed. And you can tell because sometimes you would get, you know, the occasional email from somebody that they like something on your show, and it just stops because it's like,

no, you're not far enough left for me anymore. You're not completely on the blue team. And I'm not, and I never was. I don't want a team. Where do you think you've lost and in what area? The super woke. No, but I mean, is there a specific area of... All of it. Did you see that dust up on The View with Coleman Hughes? No. No.

No? I didn't. Do you know who that is, Colt? Yeah. He's the actor? No, no, no. No. Coleman Hughes has been on my show many times. She's 30. African-American. I love him. Lots of smart people are on our page. I think he's brilliant. He's got a new book. Uh-huh. And...

It's not this far left view that racism is as bad as it ever was. And he's saying what a lot of people think, me, in my last editorial about identity politics. Racism still exists, of course, but it's much more about other things, class, the diploma divide. And we're just not where we used to be, and we shouldn't take it. And

Somebody on The View, I didn't see it, I only heard about it. Was this recently? Accused him of being like an Uncle Tom, which I think is terrible. You know...

Black people are not monolithic, and nobody should be shamed like, oh. And I felt especially for it because I get that from people too. Oh, you're a conservative now. I am not a conservative. I never was. I never will be a conservative. I haven't moved that much. I'm telling you. Liberalism, I think I still believe in that mostly.

They've moved it to a different place, including with race and gender. You know, I mean, I remember Title IX and how important that was to women. Like they got their equal say in sports and colleges. They could, you know, wasn't that Title? Yeah.

Title, was it? Yeah, whatever that civil rights bill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it changed everything. Colleges had to have an equal amount devoted to the women's team as the men's team. And then they kind of took it all away by putting penises in the swimming pool. That kind of stuff. That's the kind of stuff the person on CNN would talk about when they're trying to explain to people, how can you like Trump? We don't like Trump.

But this stuff scares us more. I mean, I saw your thing about identity politics. And I had an interesting reaction to it because I think I agree to a certain extent that

identity politics, like it shouldn't be the default. Everything is race. Everything is gender. Everything is X, Y, or Z. On the other hand, I felt like you were being so binary about it that, you know, how can you not overemphasize identity politics, but yet still acknowledge systemic racism or sexism or things that exist in the culture that

that need to be addressed, but it's not all about that. In other words, are there degrees of this that can be acknowledged and appreciated without it automatically going to identity politics? Is that making sense to you? Yeah, but I didn't say it couldn't. No, but I felt like the way you positioned it, it kind of ignored some of those things, at least the way I interpreted what you were saying.

Well, I mean, I don't think we have to all the time, if we're having adult conversations, first come out and go, you know what? I think racism is bad.

I just trust my audience after 30 years that they get that about me. Yeah. We're already there. Yeah. To me, it's like it's boring. Yes, we're there. We don't have to constantly assure of things that are... And again, there was nothing in it that I think... I mean, most of it was about how...

It's antiquated identity politics because we're just so mixed together now. Right. You know, the idea came from the Beyonce doing the drum. Right, right, right, right. It's like Jelly Roll. He's this guy who's tattooed, but he's a rapper, but he's a country guy, and we're all mixed together. A fifth of all the marriages now are interracial marriage, and it's just like the point of it was more, and of course that's good for comedy, those kind of things. The point of it was more like,

Even if you want to do it, it doesn't make sense. And the bigger point was, this is a losing issue for the Democrats. They're losing minority voters. Right. I know that. And, you know, if you're in a hole, stop digging. And...

The, was it the Guardian or the Economist, somebody who I quoted when they were studying this, and they said, yeah, I forget the wording, but the gist of it was, yeah, when race becomes less important in people's lives, they vote on other things.

Other things are more important. We should celebrate that. That's a lot of progress. And you can always look like the gooder person by saying, well, but things are still bad. Yeah, things always will be somewhat bad, I think. And I'm just not going to stop all the time to pause and, yes, but that is what I believe. I firmly believe that racism exists and still exists. I mean, obviously, lots of things exist.

Mostly, if you look at it, it's in the economic sphere. Like the net worth is crazy off. But I don't know how you remedy that. You're talking about income inequality?

No, no, not what blacks and whites make today. That's, I mean, it's against the law. I've been for a long time to pay someone less because... Right, no, no, no. But, I mean, I'm sure there is a difference because, of course, the legacy of our history, there's going to be huge disparities in everything. No, I'm talking about, like, net worth, like what you're worth. Like, you know, the white number is, I don't know what it is, but it's, you know, it's $100,000 or something, and the black is...

like crazy low, like family wealth and net worth. You know, from, of course, slavery and everything else, Jim Crow and keeping people down and just our despicable, horrible history.

That, to me, is where the biggest need for equaling things are. But I don't know how you do it quickly. I think it's just something that, unless you believe in reparations, and some people do. But I'm talking about overall income inequality and even taking race out of it. The huge chasm between the uber, uber, uber wealthy and people who don't have $400 in an emergency. Ridiculous. It is ridiculous.

It has never been such a stark divide. And I feel like, to your point, Bill, the socioeconomic disparities are a lot, and class resentment is a lot, and anti-intellectualism and elitism is what is driving many of these anti-establishment, which are Trump voters, are anti-establishment voters. So...

I think that is a huge problem that we have to address. I mean, globalization and, you know, the transition from an industrial to a technological society. I mean, I and I don't know if you've ever been jealous of some what someone else has or resentful. It is such a corroding and bitter issue.

almost bile feeling. And I think that when people who are really struggling see people who have everything and are on top of that looking down on them, it is just a recipe for such anger and resentment and grievance. You would think so. You would think that the eat the rich people would occasionally actually eat the rich.

You know, they would actually go into somebody, some rich fuck's house and drag them out and eat them. You would think that. And it just doesn't seem to happen. And the ostentatiousness that rich people have no problem indulging themselves in. I mean, just they really, look on Instagram though.

And it's not necessarily older people. There's lots of young ballers and crypto assholes and people like that. And they just put it out there because the whole culture loves it. Because the people who are poor and struggling, they look at it. And they don't go, let's kill them. They go, let's be them. I want to be that. Yeah. Yes and no. I mean, don't you think that there's some who...

who people who just feel that that is not gonna happen for me and yes, of course, you know and and Yes, I'm angry about it. And I'm angry about my life and I'm gonna take it out on on on sort of the coastal elites and the intelligentsia and that's where I think a lot of this well court is deriving from I don't know I

And again, this is where it would be great to have somebody on the panel there to say, we'll take something like the sanctuary cities hypocrisy. These elite cities said, we're the good people. We're always the good people.

Until? Until they send the immigrants actually to their city. And then the things that came out of the mouths of the leaders of New York and Chicago and even San Francisco were like pretty astounding. I mean, you would think it was Trump talking, let alone the people. You're so right. And one of the things I was thinking when CNN was trying to kind of

pivot a little more to the middle, I thought someone should go down to the border and talk about the impact on some of these border towns on the influx of immigrants and really kind of explore that. And you're right, it wasn't until, and I have a friend in Florida and I said to her, what did you think of Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott putting folks on an airplane?

and sending them to Nantucket and New York. Was that like a gross political stunt? What did you think of that? She said, I loved it. I said, why? She said, because nobody cared.

Nobody paid attention. It's just fair. If you're going to stand up and say, we should just take care of all these people and there's no judgment about anything of it, okay, then do it in your city too. Don't say it. It's good for you down there on the border. So, you know, they just called their bluff very much the same way the Democrats called the bluff of the Republicans on the immigration bill.

But you know what? I'm going to lose you like in 10 minutes. And now we're talking. I don't want to talk about this shit. What do you want to talk about? I don't know. As you can see, nothing is planned here. This is not a – people say an interview. This is not an interview. Who have you really enjoyed having on your podcast? Every single person. Really? Well, look. Get a couple of drinks with me.

I can talk to anybody. But you're not drinking. You're drinking club soda. No, I'm drinking tequila. Oh, you are? Oh, good. You said you take club soda and you put that Jing stuff in it. You didn't mention the tequila. Jing. I drink it and I pour it on dog shit. Yeah. No. So what do you drink?

Let's get to the personal side. What kind of tree are you? If you were a tree, what would you be? That was Barbara Walters. I know, and it was like forever. I think it was Katherine Hepburn. It became like the go-to. I know, but I think. But she probably said it once. There's a new book about her, and I think it got misquoted, and Susan Page wrote it's coming out around the same time as your book.

Huh? People just latch on to something to be assholes. I mean, you know, I was going to say that when going back to your producer, I think, problems with that news segment. Like, you know what? The people around us, they hold it due. No, there's some good ones, but come on, sometimes they just do. But I have to say— I think my estimation of that is just that, like,

they i mean you were a star you were the star of the thing but i think it's a woman i think they had x percent less sort of you know yeah i do i think i've seen that syndrome you mean the people at cbs yeah yeah yeah we need a strong male producer you know and i just think you just i was too different for them and

I mean, this segment would have been great if they let me... I mean, imagine how much better it would have done if the first week was me talking about atheism. Yeah. In a respectful way. It would have been interesting. They were... It would have been interesting. I don't think... I don't know if... They weren't ready for it. I don't know if the CBS viewers, which are very traditional, older... I mean, that's how... I mean, Les Moonves, his genius. Well, I used to call him...

The Vulture of Black Rock. You know why? I'll tell you why. Black Rock was the building. Yes, I know that. I know that. But I don't know the Vulture. Right. I'm telling them. OK. Because he had all these shows like CSI. And he was a genius at finding like the person who would like a movie career that was, you know, good. But just they kind of just were on the down. Yeah. And then the Vulture of Black Rock would swoop in.

Gary Sinise. I saved them. You are now on CSI. David Caruso or whatever, yeah. Yeah, it was good for everybody. And he would just always do that. But, wow, to fuck your doctor or try to at 9 in the morning or something, that's what blew my mind about it was the time of day. Like, I don't know. I mean, I thought. If it had been 4, okay. Yeah.

I don't know. I always thought I was horny, but boy, some guys are on a different level. What's going on with your love life, Bill? I wasn't going to ask you that. I'm the interviewer here. I'm married. I have a great husband. I'm very happy. So you can't have friends? Well, I mean, tell me about your love life. I do not know. No, no, no, no. I tried, people. I tried.

My love life does not exist because all my energy goes to healing America. I wish it weren't so. I'm lonely, but it's worth it. You're willing to sacrifice. I'm willing to sacrifice. All right, I'm going to read my plugs.

I will be at the Arizona Financial Theater. Oh, good. I want to come see your act. Oh, that would be awesome. I would love to come see. Do you perform in New York? Yes, I'll be there in November. Oh, great. I'm coming. You live in New York. Yeah. And you like it. I do. I live there twice. I like New York. You don't like it? It's my roots. I grew up outside New York, but-

It's rough on me. I don't like the weather. I don't like living in a building. And I never got along with the girls. Arizona Financial Theater, Phoenix, Arizona. It was always like playoff basketball in New York. Like, you know, no easy layups. You know what I mean? May 18th, Borgata Hotel, Casino and Spa, Atlantic City, New Jersey. Get that shit out of here. Hard fouls, you know, like Jordan rules. May 19th at the Palace Theater in Albany, New York. Fuck.

All right. And your thing, come on. Oh, we have to talk about my company. The show. Okay. Okay, okay. I'll do a couple of things. I executive produced a documentary that is going to air on HBO on April 16th.

with some incredible filmmakers, Mark Levin and Daphne Pinkerson. And it is a lead up to the 30th anniversary of the bombing of Oklahoma City. And what it does, it sort of traces domestic terrorism from the early 80s in Arkansas to

Randy Weaver to Waco and how Timothy McVeigh and the role April 19th played in all this and how it led to the Oklahoma City bombing. I think it's a really important documentary. Now say it for Gen Z.

Kids, back in the 90s. Back in 1995. Yes, there was the biggest. Waco was 94. Yeah, well, Oklahoma City was 95. Weren't they both April 19th? Yes, they were both April 19th. That's not a coincidence. No. They take that date very seriously. Very seriously. That's the beginning of. Patriots Day. Because that's the American Revolution. That's when Lexington and Concord. Kids, that started the American Revolution, and that's how America became a country when we broke off from Spain.

They don't know. They really don't. Anyway, so that date is one. That's a day I stay home. It's also the next day is Hitler's birthday. Is that true? Yeah, just take that couple of days off. Get short COVID. Because, yes, Waco and then Oklahoma City the next year.

Yeah, that's a big day for the people with the snake on the flag. Yes. The snake flag things that they have. Yes. So it's a really, I think it's a really great documentary that I helped with. Bill Clinton is interviewed, the prosecutor for the Timothy McVeigh case, who I know, Beth Wilkinson, and it really does sort of chart

this movement and how people can become radicalized. Timothy McVeigh fought in Iraq. He had severe mental problems. He drove around the country listening to right-wing radio on a loop, nonstop. And he, a virgin. Yes. When you get laid, they don't want to blow shit up.

I don't want to, like, take away the ending. Spoiler alert to the whole documentary. But it is true. Nobody ever, like, you know, Islamic terrorists, same thing. Like that society with the women covered and so forth. I mean, nobody ever said, oh, all he did was have sex, sex, sex, and then he blew this shit up.

You heard it here. This is the solution to domestic terrorism. Everyone needs to get laid. Any kind of terrorism. Anyway. But virgin, Tim McVeigh virgin. Yes. But it's really good. I'm very proud of it. Oh, I can't wait to see it. Can I...

Basically promote a couple other things. So I started a media company, Bill, and we have about 40 great employees. And we have a six-day-a-week newsletter called Wake Up Call. I get it every day. Oh, you do? I told you that with the alarm clock on it. Oh, yeah. Our motto. We got rid of the alarm clock a couple years ago, so you better still. Really? Yeah.

And our motto is open it even if you don't read it. And then I have my podcast and we work with a lot of purpose-driven brands to do storytelling about issues they may care about. I do a lot of cancer advocacy stuff on my platform, but it's been really fun. And I'm starting a production company where I'm working on more documentaries than some scripted projects. That's why I thought it would be really fun to do behind the scenes of real time.

Well, you can do behind the scenes. You just can't come in my writer's meeting. Well, that's the fun. Well, first of all, it's a little like, what do they call that syndrome where like Margaret Mead is in the jungle studying the natives? Right.

And just by the fact that she's there, you can't really study the natives because they know you're there. So they stopped doing whatever. How about if we do hidden cameras like this joint? Hidden cameras always goes over so well in St. Joseph. People love it with her film without knowing it. And then aired.

No, I mean, we've had this a couple of... This crew and I have been together a long time. I know. Okay, so we've had this a few times long ago. We tried it a few times. People are tight and no one... It just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. You're just not getting what we really are. And that's probably a good thing. But...

Anything else I can do for you? No, I'm excited. Ever. I think I'm going to be on your show on June 14th. Oh, we finally got a date? Yeah, yeah. I'm really excited. And yeah, thank you for doing what you do. Like, I don't always agree with you, but I always appreciate...

your perspective and that's what we have yeah i really do i'm like the ability to like not agree and still like each other i mean with us it's not that hard because the agreements are not that big yeah but with people with even bigger agreements i'm telling you that is the the theme of uh somewhat i think of the book certainly the last chapter is all about let's not have a civil war

as some people want. And also my stand-up. I mean, I'm going to do a special at the end of the year. The theme of that is just I'm tired of hating half the country. I don't want to hate half the people. And when I meet them in person, I don't. No, I agree. When we travel the country like comics do and you do, you know...

Just don't ask about politics. We need to just stop talking about it so much. Yeah. Because you're not going to convince, nobody convinces anybody of anything. That's true. So why? I don't think, I mean, I've often asked people this. I don't know who I talked to recently about the number of people who are persuadable. I feel like people have picked their sides and I don't know. How many states do you think the election is in?

Four, five. Right. I forgot. What's the number? How many do we have now? Fifty? Yeah. Fifty. But it's in five, you're saying? Yeah. Right. Wisconsin. If you don't live in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona. Is that? Yeah. I mean, it's like we did a lottery and we went like, okay, you five states, you figure it out. Yeah. I don't know about the electoral college if it's just too outdated. And I just, you know, I think the popular vote. It's hard.

Of course. But I don't think it's going to ever change. Anyway, let's not have a debate. Don't you ever change. Okay. Bye, Bill. This was so fun. It was so fun. Thank you for making time to do this. Of course. It was my pleasure. America. We are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. At

At Grand Canyon University, we believe in equal opportunity. And the American dream starts with purpose. To serve others in ways that promote human flourishing and create a ripple effect of transformation for generations to come. Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University. Private. Christian. Affordable. Visit gcu.edu.