Apple mysteries and Google trials
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Hello, looking for chest, the flagship podcast of the dynamic island.

Again again.

it's really the same show as last time. We've just slightly changed IT a little bit. Now everyone has to just as a group, agree that it's important .

yeah .

the violence IT has ever been and your family, I here here is here hi, we're on the studio this year and you're back the rage that people have felt about how long you've been gone. You I cannot describe CT you I am not people.

how transit here. I'm okay with me like being back, kay.

Yeah, you're sort of whatever that have.

Yes, it's nice. It's nice that we're all in the studio together.

It's nice going going .

to talk about some phones, talk about some stuff that have this week that aren't is IT phones .

like i'm excited about that I can spend hours talking about my new found ability to compete through net cables, which is what I have been doing in my new home. That's what we're pivoting. I can just talk about that the whole time.

The number of youtube channels that are like extremely hard core and they make a lot of videos to get about forty thousand views that are just about ethernet and IT, just a business. It's just an ecosystem over there. They're not like huge views, but it's all very passionate. Oh.

there's so earnest. It's like you're the guy who knows everything about ether net and no one has ever asked you one question about IT before. And now there are people who want .

to know the great test thing over every now and of the interns. Good like all these people exist. They're like built a little media ecosystem together.

And if you happen to need to remind yourself how a Christian ethic cable they are there for you, that's why they're so good. I have like twenty years old working in a college computer lab. Yes, and I remember that's what i've been doing.

That's why have been on the show. We moved house. I don't have a pocket set up in that house yet where it's all happening.

But I now have a cat five, the line running from my office all the way to the various on mom. That's very exciting. And that sort of a long time to figure out, how are you five g studs? Are you doing .

surgery?

Yeah, no, i've done a number of surgeries. Where is the banana? Yes, we do have a lot talk about today that isn't just international cables.

Addy Robert, since going to join the shown a little bit talk about the google anti trust trial that happened this week and that is happening for the next nine weeks. The government is suing google for what they claim is the illegal dominance of search and using the dominance of searched, supported other businesses. And we are illegal, paying for default placements, killing other search products left and right.

We don't know what the outcome that will be. We don't know. The government will in they're not doing great at winning these cases. But if they do in you, you can see a break up of google. And this is just happening very quietly yeah .

in the will come back to the later. But it's been very strange to be here, not at the apple event this weekend. There's this very big couper. T I think that happens at the apple event. Where is the apple is very good at being the only thing in the universe and not being there, just sitting here being like, okay, new phone, that's a lot like the old phone. Biggest tech trial in twenty five years.

And we've just we've .

talked a lot about the one and not that match about the other. Glad were going to catch up on IT. IT takes ten weeks, which is too long.

When microsoft wanted to buy a gaming company, they didn't five day. We are all very interested in that was fine. Ten weeks is just like.

can I how long is a lot of what's happened this week is google's chief economist has been called to account for his emails from two decades ago. And so this is all happening. We are covering IT addition during the show and a little bit talk about IT in detail and talk about kind of why it's so quiet IT IT is hard to cover this trial. Yeah, I will get to that. We're also going to get to the unity drama, which Alexis promised to .

explain to me. I swear, i'm gonna do IT okay and be great.

I literally was like I was at apple and .

this was happening during apple, during the ever like, ash was like, can someone help me do math and we were like, no math on the iphone.

So all I know about this is that there are death threats involved in the pricing structure of a game engine. So we're get to that because seems very important. But let's start IT.

IT is for the end of iphone week, there's a lot of what you went. Think of us pick up news. We've just asked a lot of questions and we've got ten a lot of answers. But start with the injury mystery of the thread radio. David, do you know what's going on on this street radio?

no. So this is the sort of my favor part of the iphone launched because there's that like thirty six hours where it's just infinite numbers and information and videos to watch and all kinds of stuff and then everybody kind of takes a deep breath, gets on a plane and you're like, what what just happened yeah and and you yes, we're talking that this on the show on wednesday, the like enduring mystery of the thread radio and g two in our teams are really good job of basically running down.

All of the possibility is, one is that there's a sneaky smart home play that apple is going for here where you could use your phone as a thread border router to connect actually all your devices. One is that even apple isn't really sure what it's doing. One is that IT got IT for free with the chip that it's in wifi and bluetooth on.

I think all of those are totally paul, we have no idea. Yeah I will say the thing that has jumped out to me as, uh, I put exactly no reasons behind apple saying, well, you don't know it's like, of course, that's apples going to say apple is going to come out a year from now and pretend that that had invented thread and have some cool future, right? Like that's how this works.

But the other thing that I keep thinking about is like apple has made very clear to us over the years that IT hates blue youth in so so many ways yeah and I think IT can't replace bluetooth for things like headphones, but I can absolutely figure out how to replace bluetooth for connecting to your other devices. And IT has the ultra wide d be in shape, is doing all this stuff. But if you can use thread is just like a free way to get rid of this awful power hungry standard that no one really likes.

That makes a lot of sense to me as a thing apple might do. There's a long road to get there. You have to put in all the races. You have to put them on all the phones. But like if you were going to start somewhere, IT makes sense to start with the hyphen pro, IT makes sense to sort of slowly trickle IT out. And then in two years there going to have a big smart home event and tell us all the whole things theyve done, a threat like I can see how we get from here.

Rope, what the cool things be, just like turning off.

please. yes. What are the cool things?

I mean, I like to turn, like using thread is nice to turn off. Bulls, I enjoy IT as much as you can enjoy doing that. But like, the answer is we made .

the smart home work, right? Like if on the apple, i'm looking at matter being like that's a gigging tic disaster, we'll figure that out eventually. Matter is the long term answer. It's not the short term answers.

But what apple can do is come out and say, like we now have a solution in which you go to your iphone and you hit the butter as I turn my lights on and IT connects to the lights and turns them on no other steps yeah, that's powerful and would mean things to people. You don't have to worry about your hubristic, don't have to make sure that your network is working. You don't have to like you just you have a device that devices over there. You hit a button, turns at an able story .

without needing wifi, which was the best part of again.

here is my question and I I believe you that IT is unlikely at apple us without a plan. But it's .

weird that they announced .

IT without a plan s in box and it's in the press release. Yes, they could have just not told anybody that.

But also you remember they they upgraded the home map and they were like, it's for future protections. Al improvements. Hell, does that mean like apple? I think I really, genuinely believe apple thinks the smart home is for nerds and is just like very slowly building up a thing that at three years from now, they're gonna like we've invented the smart home. And IT starts .

in that little radio. It's gonna .

like a slow zoom on .

A A light bulb. And then you just put entire house in IT, dc, right? They're like apple smart house, more like beautiful people or doing beautiful things all the time, and like someone's making a pancake in home pod mini like open the gods like they can't reckon not having done that.

they absolutely became. They absolutely can.

There will be a birthday party. The lights are going to pop on.

Every can go. Yes, we've got a number of emails with thread theories. I think the most interesting ones are all about local connectivity.

A lot of people think, well, this could be Better for connecting to smart watches or airpower. S, and the answer, and you should regencies will link IT. It's very good.

SHE basically ran at everything down, as David said, and she's got a bunch of actual reporting from people at other companies who use thread like google product managers are in this piece document. What they would put thread in this part for is really interesting to go with that piece. But basically, a band with a thread is not going to let you build that like tiny personal area in at work that people are talking about at this moment.

And then there's a lot of life is IT for presence detection. Now, this other stuff you can think of. And the problem with that is that blue tooth law energy does exist.

IT is there?

IT does that job actually quite well? And so you're you're just in this weird place where have ultra wide band you have thread. You've got really and everyone like, well, maybe we'll use this one to do the thing that that one's designed for.

Like, have you seen these new, well, happy Price aqua? Yes, theyve got the present sensors. yeah. And basically to be present centers and they can tell where you are in a room. Like you can set them up, map out the room, you walk in the room and beyond, just there's motion in the room. Turn the light. It's like I met the desk yeah, turn on the desk light because I at the desk and when I leave the desk and go to the couch, turn off that light and turn this thing now that's terrifying.

I was just singing how I was like, I need to go at that sensor .

yeah there's I you go watch the videos people using, it's so cool yeah and like, IT is a big on mock and china is ready at all stuff. That is a huge unlock for smart home ideas. Because knowing you're in a room is actually not that useful. Knowing where you are and what you might be doing in a room is very useful. But then you have to tell computers where you are and what you are doing in a room and then the computers will know and store that data.

You can use home assistant and then a lot of that data and stuff is not stored yeah, but the company is instead, it's just steer data. I do plexus .

hoa system.

I'm out there. I'm out there at the edge. No one's got my .

day literally on the edge on, but only so all the stuff is all these these kinds of radios, the blurry lines between them are ever more blurry. In apple, in the, in the phone has all three of them. There's a second then ultra wide band ship in these phones and then there's a IT. I know they didn't and answer that a plan. I know there's a plan there telling us, yeah, but the announcement is an announcement without a plan.

They are just up. If you just got IT for free with the chip, you don't put IT in the bento. You let like I fix IT opening up and be like how where there's a thread, brother there and then never touch IT again and don't talk about IT, don't answer questions like we've seen apple do this before IT really what is this for? And apples like what do you mean? Like that's all fine. But yeah I I think it's right that they're like they want to put thread in people's minds and exactly why that is, I don't know, but I think you're rate that there's there is some kind of bet there. Just question like how big and how soon yeah we're going to see something out of that.

Then what's fun for us is that verge chest listeners, verge readers are there as interested in this mystery. Yeah like this post, like what is threat in the iphone for is like right up there with like iphone and anh. And it's great, but that's what I do.

The thing that we do, other stuff that we picked up lightning is not totally gone. It's still around I mean, apple south and nth chen ipad. All the airports, except for the area pod's proto .

have IT IT just seem like we're going to work in for probably, you say, twelve months of kind of slowly waiting those things out, like if we get to this time next year and there are still a single apple device with a lightning port.

I be there a budget ipad and IT will be therefore like three more years with with the the pencil that you plug in. And then no.

they're going to leave the magic mouse with the stupid isolated port on the bottom just to troll everybody.

Well, I mean, that stuff is really interesting because those are wholesale redesigns yeah apple's view of USB c is basically we invented this port. It's ours and it's true yeah with that first baby macbook of which, by the way, I got rid of them. Very sad about them when we moved as like it's time. Deter sold me one a long time ago.

R. I P, terrible, beautiful computers.

the ultimate plane computer. I kept them in my house for years after they are obsolete, thinking I will have these just for airplane rides. And then every night again, I like go on a long fight, and I would open, would not. In fact, this is so much slower than, this is so much objectively worse than any ipad in this house, including maxi ipad, which is like lockdown kids mode. Did you put .

like chrome s on IT?

No, I thought that as like I can just purchase a chrome back for no money.

And that's been like six hour. If you walk .

into like any Carrier retail story you like, I might upset my plane like chrome book. Anyhow, apple invented the USB c port basically because the USB I F S is going on a bad direction, and they wanted IT for that. So apple view .

people invented is strong, but it's not that far off. IT participated how probably deserves more credit than any other company for the existence of U. S. B. C.

But like a lot of people made USB c, which is why U S B C is good, right? Because everybody SAT in the room and agreed, this is the standard. We're, yes, live with IT.

Yeah but like in that room, apple had a knife. sure. It's like it's like .

google and chromium, right? Like romeo is technically an open source browser and you can do whatever you like with IT, but someone from google will stand outside of your house.

You like apples. We know where all of you live. You have our phones.

We've handed your high cut credential. The chinese government is just the thing that we've done. So that in general is like happy about USB. C, I think they are not happy I lose the revenue.

You I think they are not happy about being forced because europeans, but you can't just switch the ipad, the nth gen ipad USB c, you have to rearchitects that product. So I think that just gets faced out. Their pods of max apple doesn't even acknowledge that this product exists. And I see more of them than anything else.

Yes, they're clearly very .

popular always on the plane yeah like I think that I need to buy them when I get on a plane. Like everybody, everybody has them. I should get them to everywhere if you .

stop to ask people like so tell me what the case that came with.

You use IT yeah never see the little person, never see the purse.

But light lightning on the airpower s max, the regular airports like, I mean, this is a lot of products that need to be objected. I don't think it's quite .

a simple that mouse. They're a handful of them that they can just kind of get for free, right, that you just stick in new port and i'll be like the magic keyboard is a good example, right? Changing that to U.

S, B, C will not be hard work. I actually think the base level ipad, I think you're right, is the most interesting one because, a, that thing is probably do for a bit of redesign anyway. B, it's clearly very popular, like apple talks about that thing way more than you would think you would for like a pretty cheap entry level product. It's clear it's a meaningful thing to apple. And so I suspect that one is going to be the one that we see like look the most different and also come with USB.

C, well, in a lot of that was like they're trying to get in involved inventory and stuff too here, right? Like that's why they is still has the the dorky pencil and everything like that. No disrespect.

Some .

disrespect. yeah. So so I do you think it's gonna be a minute. I don't think they are just onna flip a switch because they do still need to get rid of all of that stuff. Yeah and that's why they're so, rick and now is because they're really good at like unloading old crap.

degraded the but .

they gazed up like they puts a makeup on like countour like a well, yeah, that that I phone many men, the gorgeous.

gorgeous. I sad. I one like a psychopath because it's about to be gone forever.

Liam, are other producers holding the first cast? What a disaster of a show. All, there's just iphone .

this way there. The is .

what moser .

g at the end of the macbook airline, he just bought like two of them. A yes, to have them in case apple screwed IT up in the future.

That smart. I I would do that.

It's good. Uh, speaking of the USB c in general, we've learned a lot about the port and what IT will support and basically the answer is everything like apple did this the right yeah that seems .

so they had a moral obligation to that's .

what is apple. So backbone one controllers are just going to get upgraded and I going to work with the iphone. And I actually saw some backbone folks at the event.

They were excited and they were just hanging out. The android background controllers said, there are a lot of games reporters. Yes, that's cool.

Like it's cool that that just works. Apparently you can plug into sort of any USB c hub and get like ether net on your phone. Oh like basically anything that would work on the ipad pro is going to just happen over here.

That's cool. That's much bigger than I expected at the office.

And you have the crappy wifi and they're always the IT is always like just log into the ether net, I on my phone now you can just yeah.

I don't know how any of that's going to work by experience doing any of this stuff. Ff, with an ipad is always a little like you just hope the the magic of the ipad magic you it's going to be even weirder with the phone in the ice. Seventeen is another bit of a wild card here. So but theoretically.

yeah I mean, the back thing to me like the perfect example of how this to be very exciting, where they're just like, oh, this thing that used to fit on these phones now also fit on these phones. And so it's going to work like this is the point of having a universal standard. This is why the E.

U. Mandated this. This is why we were excited about this.

It's like it's going to be good for the accessory market. It's going to be good for users. Peter can be able to share stuff with people. You're going to be able to buy things without that. Like does this work with my phone question, which is a really complicated question for a lots of people and yeah, the fact that apple seems to have gone about this about the most open way possible is great and Frankly very spreads. yes.

And they didn't nerve any of the charging speeds or transfer speeds I can except the fifteen is A U. S, C. two.

But again, that's like it's good enough for most people. IT will be fine. I don't think there are that many people buying an iphone fifteen desperate for you. Yeah data.

I think those people are getting a pro if they care and if they know what USB two is.

they're getting a probe. I think that's right.

We should the word promise. I just want to be clear by contrasting to iphone of use this years and the total weird because I have the code conference to deal with. That's very distracting. But i'm like, what if my only contribution to this review is two thousand words on the meaning of the word pro award that has lost all meaning in which, in this case, for apple this year means good at video games don't have another, they don't have another answer for IT.

which is wild. Okay, I see IT exactly the opposite. We should get to google after this. This is enough apple talk. But I think to me, the fact that a big part of the way apple showed off the pro was by showing you how you can like rig up a camera in a studio and shoot to external storage like that. That's pro.

That's how you tell a story that is different about that phone than the other phones, whether that's like real and how people will do that. Like you were on the show on wednesday. King, fun of the idea that you would like use your iphone in a studio to take professional pictures. People do that all the do like, that's like life. Now, even soter books out here just like shooting movies on his iphone for fun all day, like it's a real thing and the idea that they're gna take the pro and like give IT genuinely new things to do, especially as a camera, I think like if you want to tell a pro story, that's where you do IT.

They're like we are going to turn this and i'm saying what they're saying is look at how good IT is in video games yeah, not that thing.

I sort of I mean, they did a little bit of the other story. They spent way too much time talking about games. This is like apple does this all the time. We like I made a world.

You're going to use .

IT for games occasionally. So we're going to tell you about every single game that exists on the time.

So two things we can wrap up. As always, i've asked people to emails with their hard core android gamers. So we got one from evan.

He said, I am here to inform you that i've been gaming on android for as long as the verge has existed. And it's a long list of all the phones got. N, L, G, G.

He played need for speed on IT lt. lawn. She's got stadia. No way this cpl. Ends with I did just buy in nine hundred eleven and primary .

area .

there IT is there IT is yeah well done even. Uh, easily the funniest turn. It's a it's a good long email. Easily one of the funniest turns in the email saying you're .

wrong about him again uh and .

then we got email from, uh, Colin because we are wondering who would buy the lightning USB c dung le for twenty bucks and we hypothesized that some people buy them for their cars. He email ilus to us. Yes, his friend is buying one for his car as a custom set up. And it's apparently easier to pay twenty books for the dongle. Then to Terry, open his car and put in the U.

S, B, C, K. Set up with a built in you yeah, man, yeah.

I was these people like an ipad in the center of the, oh, oh yeah uh, well, come on. We want pictures of your friend's car so that, uh, but there are some people that here by the dongle, because they have basically fixed lightning cables.

a lot of like coffee shops are gonna the G I also think .

a lot of people are going to buy the dongle because the ideas buying an entirely new cable feels annoying. And i'm going to spend a lot of time like running around to relatives being like don't buy the dog. Go buy a new table.

I it's the same phase. It's going to be fine. Everything's okay like i'm gonna end up with just like a giant bucket full of two meter long U S, B, C. cables. And just every time I go into a room with family members was going to start talking with people.

everybody is going a little red tail on the bottom of their phones because they always .

have to have that that people that they had phones um and lastly, i'm just gonna say this. I ve heard that not everyone in apple pronounce its heef. Wow.

there is .

more diversity of pronunciations inside of apple ink. Tell me more what I was just like this. This whole company called heef. And then some people contacted me and was like, not all of us say, hef.

you you can share you like you don't want to disclose .

your short sources. This is some of the most sensitive reporting .

i've ever appreciate.

And i'm just saying hef might have been pushed out into the world.

but it's out there now. If you are the one on, you are the one on to decide how pranced we can take .

a break that is enough, five one stuff for a week and we will be back with the any robbs shock at U. S. V. Google, which is a big .

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Right back add Robert since you hi, hey. So there is a big trial going on in secret. I don't know how to describe IT. It's like the government does not want us to know that the other part of the government is suing google.

I think that kind of true. I mean, I just think back to like the same bank and free trial start to a couple weeks and there are tons of people talking about that. There was the microsoft activision blizz trial.

There was the list with homes trial that we ve had to run of these very high problem. We've had a run of these over the last few years. And this feels by far like the one that is getting the least attention despite being potentially like the most consequent by a million miles. Yeah, it's very strange.

I think it's because google just really good at like flying under the radar because even with the the google v epic.

no, that man at apple of the same thing.

And then now what happened .

to yeah apple the end.

like they all happen, right? Like apple v epic was a big deal. Yeah google v epic, we're like, yeah, now they're doing IT.

I mean, google has also been trying to keep like as much of the trial underground as possible here.

Ah yeah 所以 unlike .

their phones.

very good. So just to lay the stage here then, I want to add this talk. What was actually happened in trial IT is impossible to cover this trial. There is no audio stream of IT.

There was an audio stream very briefly .

of just the opening arguments, but none of the IT witnesses. There's barely a schedule. If reporters go into the courtroom, that kind of devices, if take author notes, long hand IT, is just ridiculous. Yeah, but the government might get to a place where break up google in the process by which that is happening is basically impossible.

And because we cannot just cover IT unless we send someone in the courtroom every day for nine weeks to take notes with the pen, this girl we are thinking about doing and obviously, other larger competitors like bloomberg in in the times are doing. But you just contrast that with all of the other trials and IT. For some reason these decisions have been made.

It's I know I find IT very frustrating, obviously, because I think of a google all day, every day. But this is the trial where you know google putting out memos. It's on employees. We do not use words like lock in yeah or scale or scale yeah right. We don't use the word of leverage when we talk about search like they're instructing their own executives how to email each other, they're in trouble for destroying evidence in this case yeah .

there's that amazing message were soon are to try the C. O popped into A A google chat group and said something to the effect of lake. We should talk about this. Can we turn off history for this chat session? And then that's obviously of the last message anyone can see. And yeah, I mean, at my impression and this is based on very little except just thinking about incentive here, is that google has everything to gain from bearing as much of this trial and process is possible, right?

Yes, I made with the cavy out that it's not going to matter if the judges like goose aking up google, google are getting broken up if IT is in secret. And again, to be clear, that's one of the less likely outcomes. yes.

But yeah, I think that IT benefits google to not have to deal with a lot of the arguments being made here as IT does that wood for really most plaintiff like as IT would for apple in APP versus apple. And then there's also a lot of other companies implicated here like obviously this is about google deals with companies like apple. And so apple has appeared and tried to like is tried to get its executives out of testifying.

Um so there's really just a lot of companies here and a lot of very sensitive information going around. And one one hand, it's it's not really surprising that they would try to keep a lot of the secret. But on the other, IT also means that you don't hear as much about what the justice determines, say, google is doing .

yeah and the case fundamental turns on on these deals, right? So the case was pretty wide ranging. It's been this been going for three years now.

Yes, twenty, twenty, the first suit is filed.

yeah. And so like all things, as IT approaches trial, it's been narrow down to a handful of issues. The most, I think important relevant one is google's deals to be the fault surge engine on the iphone and other platforms. So of course, the justice partment wants tim cook to testify and apples like no, we're not do and what that makes sense, they want to do that. But just again, i'm just coming back to this last this week while apple is announcing pretty light refresher c iphone that captured all the attention, but the trial in which the department of justice is saying the deal in which google pays apple money to be that a falt search out on the iphone is anti competitive and illegal is like totally under the rare impossible the cover. And I just think that's weird.

I think there's also it's also just easy to be sort of cynical because we've been seeing these cases try to make a dent in companies for years and years and years like there was this entire gigantic a sensibly bay partisan tech lash starting in really about twenty sixteen, building up twenty seven and happened yeah just I think it's really easy to look at this and go IT is very, very hard to win an anti trust case.

The federal trade commission, which is not the one bringing the soup, but is which is part of the bite administrations attempt to get anti trust to happen in the us. IT has had a couple of really high profile losses. Epic versus apple of really means that apple is going to maybe have to do something that apple has been fighting tooths and nail to not do, but it's still basically determined. Look, apple can just charge these fees. I think that it's very easy to look at this and worry that just nothing's going to come of IT.

Yeah, yeah, like that. That was what I was going to say. I think I think cynics is is the right word here.

People are cynical like we've seen this happens so many times and you not just in tech, you ve seen that happened in a lot of places where it's just like, okay, so when is the government gona actually do something? When is this gonna happen? We're just going to continue on.

And this is like a really good opportunity for the government. And even the government seems like reluctant, right? Like they could probably make this a lot more public.

They could make this more of a show and that might be in their best interest to like get the public support behind that. But the even the government is playing IT so safer. Like you're playing IT that safe. Er, you really gonna do IT.

Well, there are many branes government.

three until three.

So I don't know why the judges, in this case, judgement meta, is to logging IT on the way here. Obviously google wants that that way. And there is question, there is private stuff, but like not having audio streams of the witnesses.

Seems I just don't understand that at all. And then there is the D O, J, which is, you know, there are prosecutors. They're not supposed to do IT that way like there's a little bit of gap there. The thing I would give you is the same week, we did watch the european government successfully pressure apple into changing the poor in the iphone, and that's a good outcome. And even in our videos, like our hands on video, where we're like apple changed IT, the comments like the europeans change that people understand the mechanism by which the change was made.

And that's what we've been talking about in the us for the last couple of years. Rays that like a clear part of the ftc, which again is not involved this particular trial. But what they're trying to do is sort of lose in such a way that IT eventually we have to legislate answers to this.

And it's like what the E. U. Did was make laws. Yeah they like there was no big court case about the lightning import. They just made a law about common charges. And IT feels like that if if our system work Better, IT might be different.

The u has made a lot of laws, so about google search. So when they have done more aggressive enforcement about google s then would ever be contemplated in this. I downa designing the start up flow and android phone in adi. And I ve been talking for three years, none of IT has worked by. Google is dominant in europe.

When you open an android phone and asked you if you want to use chrome, IT asked you, IT has a brazil ballot and a search engine ballot, right? And know everyone's just like, okay, and a big roman google because I bought a android phone, what else do you think of doing here? How did you see any similarities between that version of the european enforcement, which has been unsuccessful, and what is happening in this case?

I mean, that entire thing you just said this kind of google argument. Look, even when don't or don't get the default acec, even when we don't do the thing the justice department is saying is illegal, we win. So clearly, we're just the best.

I just not say that is my absolute favor. Thing that has been happening in this trial so far is being is everybody's punching back. What be like google's argument is essentially, uh, microsoft makes being the default on windows in the same way that were the fault in of the places. And still overwhelmingly people choose google because being sucks. And the government's case is, well, being sucks and nobody uses IT and that .

google is found and it's very .

funny to me that like it's it's a shame that there's not a Better product to argue about here. Yeah and I think which is kept coming up over and over and over.

And like in a funny y way, if google wins this case, I think microsoft is going to have been a huge ally for google in winning this case because the google is saying and add, I don't know if this was your impression, but listening to the opening arguments over an A T N T conference call, which is very funny for an anti trust trial, but the overwhelming thing google kept saying was like, we are not the company with infinite resources that is able to do whatever we want and upbeat everybody to do everything because microsoft exists. Microsoft is also a trillion dollar company with limitless money to do whatever he wants. They keep trying to put being in front of people windows exists.

Microsoft has a long history of doing anti trusty things and being still sucks and nobody uses IT. And I actually think, like of all of the google arguments I have heard so far, that is by far the most compelling to me. I don't know. I did you read that differently on the first day?

yeah. And I think that the justice department is trying to counter IT by basically saying the reason google is so good and is so untouchable is because we all agree here being IT sucks, do not that strong. But is that google gathers has so much data from searches that IT basically got this fly wheel effect of just being able to get to foot placements.

So then people type things into google, and then google learns how people search for things, and then google could deliver Better results. And then this just keeps going. And even though microsoft has tried to do things, it's try to set its own default. IT has part with yahoo. That thing has come up to do a data sharing deal in order to get more queries that that just hasn't been enough.

Yeah yeah. One of the things that judge matter asked, I think like within the first hour or so of testimony on the first day was, uh, he asked the the D O J layer, how long has google been a monopoly which that was a really interesting question. And I think the answer was IT has been illegally protecting that monopoly since twenty ten, which which assumes that IT was a monopoly before that.

right? But I think key was saying it's been it's had really heavy market power since about two thousand seven OK. yes. And yes, it's been illegally .

maintaining them since. And so that's the what I think like, obviously, google came at one thousand nine hundred ninety eight and no one is debating the fact that google, at least for a long time, was vastly Better than everything else and won purely on the merits.

And then what we're debating now is did you go from winning on the merits to buying merits and is actually making IT impossible for anyone else to do to like google, what google did to autistic a and everybody else twenty five years ago and that turn and trying to figure out like where IT happened and what that looks like. I think why we've come down to this default als, because ultimately that's the question right, is like google out here saying there are million ways to find information on the internet. And the D O.

J is saying, like general search, which they keep calling IT is this different thing from what tiktok is and what chat P T is? But they have to figure out like, okay, when did google go from just objectively being the best search engine to everybody uses IT, which is not illegal, to being the best and making sure that no one else can be, which is a much tRicky or thing, than like what microsoft did, which is just like boot, let's cape off. And I don't know, it's IT just set us off down this kind of odd path where like, yet almost not obvious what everyone is arguing at any given time matter. What's this .

general search thing is ridiculous. Like the ftc, what what they've done a bad job in many of their cases, like they did the entire activision trial and forgot to mention club gaming and then they lost and then they were like in the back, we're gna appeal on club gaming and it's yeah that was the that was the time tear the deer jet think is getting sucker into this.

Like every an interest trial comes down like what is the market? And let's have an increasingly esoteric debate about what market is being dominated. And then obviously, google, like the market, is the use of computers.

And we are about one tiny fraction of why one might computer, sir, right right in in the D O J is like general search, which means fuck in, nothing in the answers. I note, searching the web. Yeah, there are a handful of products that searched the web. People use them all day long. And there's one search engine that matters in the web.

to be fair, that is what they are. Definition of general searcher is is a thing that searches sources that is not resources beyond one .

site on the web, right?

But that even that definition is like it's just it's so not the like if you try to explain that to a Normal person, even like are right. So there there are sources behind of one side, right? Like you're like i'm not even going to say the word web to you and IT.

I would just say if you just look at the web today, we have talked to her so many times that is so obviously influence by googles wants, the needs that you cannot say. This thing is dominant. IT is the only incentives structure that exists in the web, really is girls wants and needs. Because I told people get traffic to the websites. Okay, like just start in the d suckered into this conversation of general search and whether the kids are using tiktok, right?

And like that's totally different.

I mean, if apple changes the default search on the iphone to be tiktok.

horrible experience .

that so just .

generally non sal, the things kids of iphones, the kids of long together.

all these other searches that we're talking on, the category of gentle search that google want you consider, I would just say come back to the thing at issue, which is the default deals on these platforms and say, can you replace them? Did you replace the default search on the iphone with the youtube? Yeah and I know basically you need web search. And I google's protection of that web search what yet there's the da argument that they've making for a long time like everyone is are making gool hasn't most say that I can do IT but next to IT at are these like vertical search engines like yelp and these other companies that are were much Better in these very specific domains. And we can barely even get to a customer because of google yeah.

which was a bigger part of the case originally and then had got trimmed out of IT. And so is not coming up in this is much do .

you think they'll come up later in these ten weeks?

So the department of justice is making its case first, and that claim was part of the data tourney y general suit that's gonna come up later, but you also got cut mostly from that suit. So I think we're not actually going to hear nearly as much about IT as we could have even though those search ines come on.

which is a bummer because that feels like the real issue, right? Like the fact that they're doing these exclusivity deals is on its face totally like monopoly behavior. But also in this case, google is actually really good at search. Of course, lake.

I like, let's say, you ask theory to find you a plumber yeah right? Competitive world apple goes and makes a deal with .

yet or Angeles, whatever, right?

They're running that search on a specialized service. Google deal means like that all .

go through google. Okay, okay then yeah no there monopoly.

I mean, like I don't know that good or bad, but that's so of the shape of IT and addie, right? It's been trimmed out of the suit alone.

Of this part that that turned out of the suit was not the thing you're describing. IT was the idea that when you go to google itself, yeah and you're trying to find a thing, google google makes IT hard to find these places like yelp or trip advisor, whatever, through google specifically. So that got mostly cut out of the suit.

And the just a rather fully was like both google was allowed to do to for once, and google. But there is that vertical search thing, from what I read of the decision the judges is basically, I need to see more evidence. We'll get more evidence of trial, and I will decide how big of a deal that is. And so we will see what have what the states do. But you just look at all of the things google does, and again, its instructions to its own people to not talk about doing those things.

Wow, that seems illegal.

I don't think that IT is necessarily illegal. But IT, is that certainly the kind of thing you can bring up to to say shady?

yeah. And that we don't we don't leverage anything is like a very funny thing, say so add what's been going this week, it's just in google's chief economist, how very and if we learn anything in particular.

So the first day was after opening statements, how varian um who were they really honed in on the idea that we're gonna go to the metaphorical tape and look at all of these emails that google exactly sent about how important scale is and how important data is and then there were these internal arguments where very wrote this, did this interview with sea out where he says, look, the argument that that data is like the ball and endow and the microsoft has to make this deal with yahoo to get data that's bogus.

And then there is this internal fight where people were to think, look, that's ridiculous. No data. Obviously, if they have the day that we eat, we would be they would be incredible, like they would be much Better than they are now.

So there's that. And then this was also where we got a lot of the we at google, we do not say market share, we say query share. We do not bundle, we do not tie and then build that.

We've also um there's been a behavioral economist that they've brought that the department of justice has brought up to emphasize the quote of the power of default. That's been their first expert witness. He spent a bunch of time on the stand. Um and so that's been a lot of presentations both about stuff google has said internally, which echoes sort of the various testimony and just experiments and other data that has been collected. Elsewhither just says in general, people choose default.

yeah. And I do think if you wanted to boil this case all the way down to one question is the power of defaults like do default matter is in a big way that seems like what a lot of this is going to hinge on because google's argument is the matter a little right. It's why we pay for the devolved google cannot in any kind of reasonable what he say.

Default don't matter at all, because IT is tens of billion dollars a year yeah, to be the default. So it's like all that is finding good. But the two arguments that makes is that defaults don't matter that much because people choose google even when it's hard to or even when there is a fairly level playing field and is being sucks because being sucks.

And also that we only paid to be the defauts because the good with the best product, everybody tells us with the best product, that's the only thing that matters the end there. And then the D, O, J is out. You're saying, no, you are the default.

You pay to be the default. So we can even reasonable start to answer the rest of these questions, right? And that's what although like little search engines will tell you, that's what all the failed competitors will tell you. Is that like we don't even know if we could have beat google or tried or caught up, which there's no runway, there's no way to even get into the space.

Just the ah anie va has already come up a bunch .

in the trial and street around a swab the o of eva who used to run the whole business in google is going to take the stand in this trial lake. That is a key part of the argument is like defauts are so important that because google pays all this money to be the default, we don't exist. And that's like if the d if the deal you j can prove that IT might win. And it's very hard to prove that.

There's also the argument that is that specifically, it's not just small car instance. IT is good apple. One of the things that hasn't come up really in testimony as much, but was part of the opening statements, is that google has been basically paying able to not build a search engine.

Yeah I mean, every year W W, C, apple does something that hints in interest in doing more searches. Yes, right. In every year we get the new version of IOS and it's like pulled down and I can type .

this and this will come to automatically here.

You can do image search and spot. Now it's like it's right there if you wanted to. Every year, we get some notes from the right. I'm very curious you know if if they do put tim cook in edu in the rest on the stand.

we're gonna get edu where it's far as I know, not getting tim cook full.

who I ensure edu to understand, right? The question I would ask is look at all the marketing about privacy, look at all the marketing but not tracking you, and look at the billions of dollars you take from the largest ad tracking thing that has ever existed in human istory. How do you square that circle beyond just taking the money? Because I don't think apples ever been held to account for this. Certainly, people try to asking, and I like people love google. And at the end of IT, like google is available on the APP store, the APP store is created more economic opportunity for people than every insect.

What where did you go? One place that has already kind of come up is with mozilla. And mozilla is another company that says a lot of things about privacy in the open web and believing the internet and also takes a lot of money from google every year to be the default search engine in firefox and google case.

And this is actually worked in google's favorite fairly well so far. That seems, is that mozilla, at one point stopped using google as IT searched and providers sign to deal with with yahoo ahoo, and then went back to google for exactly that reason, because that's the face everybody makes when they have to use the ahoo search. And so google is like they had choices and they picked google hilariously.

The department justice is counter to this is that yahoo could have been viable, but I was so expensive to be google that they had to learn down their service with ads that suddenly made yahoo search awful.

Arch being socks argument, right? Are all other search engines bad because of google? Is such a weird question, but is like kind of core to alive case.

Yeah, like there are no other good search engines is IT because google is great or because google has so aggressively it's feed everyone? Is probably is both right? I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, which is why it's going to be very hard for google to .

lose this case IT seems yeah even they do. You just have to look at europe, where for over a decade now, the princess and princesses of europe of shaking their pitchforks at google and said, we will undo this dominance. And the people of you up have said down with the king, no, no goods, sir. They have googled .

for news about that. We.

we shall continue. Google, no, absolutely not. French revolution. The whole thing. This is a, it's very complicated. Over in europe, there are still kings and told us print.

And princess is everywhere, just everywhere.

No one knows why my people have run away from them twice in america. Anyway, we're going to cover the how lot of this trial we're going to figure out to get into that current basically every day with a series of quill pens apartment because that's how the government wants us to cover USB.

Google, could you take the parts bit and have IT so IT like goes out of the room as you write and .

then add can just be .

on the other side?

I like that. C. R, in the partment is i'm going to bring an increasingly less technological advances, ices every day until it's OK.

Like, fine.

bring a crambo if I come in with, like an eating notebook that I can write on is that electronics? Like what are we do? Every good if i'm not touching the screen, it's .

markable.

And just like so .

fun to when you go through the battle detector in the court room, you have to take out all your cables. This is not a fun place to be. If you are with many cables .

as ideas like me.

I can never go. I'm not a there and I going to happen. And we are again, we're covering how this right, they're going to be a bunch of big witnesses on the stand.

We're gona get as much coverage to you as we can. I think it's a big deal just because no one pays attention to google search like we have been running a series about google search. And what that means in google turning twenty five all year will link IT in the shots, David's eva peces in there, google reader pieces in there.

We have watched S O stories coming, uh, about the culture of seo. I think you're going to be really good. And what has been apparent in doing the stories is that google hates IT.

When you talk about search as anything other than like water, they're what search is, just the oxon of the unit just around you at all times. IT keeps us and its signal this is a business, a business ruthlessly protect and instruct people to never discuss in words that sound ruthless. And that gap, I think, is what this trial, even if the government loses the trial, will narrow.

The gap in the perception of google search is just a benie thing that happens bright in a very, very ruthful surround. And I say ruthless. I don't mean that in a negative way.

I think google does a good job of running its business in making a lot of cash and google surge and then funding a bunch of shit. IT shuts down two months later, right? Like that's the engine of google. It's basically it's only business and then a little bit youtube and then a little bit google club, but like it's search that funds a whole bunch of stuff yeah and .

google wants you to think about IT as this like inevitable thing that just sort of has to exist the way that IT doesn't order for internet to work. Like like your think it's they want you to think it's water. And IT is like a series of very specific choices that people made in how this thing works. And if nothing else.

we're going to learn a about the choices with quill pans and part OK. We got to take a break. Allies stick around.

We're going to take a break. Them to come back. I need you and Alice explain what is going on. The invites me good.

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okay. We're back to show us what over uh, there is gigantic drama with unity, though IT has gone completely off the rails. They changed the pricing structure in the middle apple event. Get the dolphins are very mad. It's escalated to like in appropriate levels.

right? So unity is one of the biggest game engines out there. Really interesting because unity is used in like most mobile games at tana, mobile games out there. So apples up there singing, we love gaming, hate real. And meanwhile, this is happening with the unity, which is a big developer for like big game engine for IOS. They are raising their Prices specifically if you reach like if you sell enough product, then you're going to have to start paying them for every download, every yeah every install. So Monica and alison are just onna bankrupt cup of this every time they review new .

products because they install the games.

all these so so basically, they walk some of IT back. But if you're making I think if you're a smaller developer and you're making over two hundred thousand a year from your game, you're going to have to start paying these fees. And if you are a larger development, I think is over a million a year, you're going to have to start paying these fees.

And these fees like are fairly small. What is the argument .

for per install fees.

money like you made any r no.

that's part of the frustration here. The frustration is less about the money being asked for because a lot of the developers are like, yeah, if this is the cost of doing business, that's a cost of doing business. This was communicated to us in the worst way possible in the mod of a big and IT gets communicated um there was no prep.

Usually we'll go to like bigger developers and be like hey were thinking about charging you more money. None of that happened in this case. And in unity is really like digging in on this every single time we'd get another thing, we'd get, uh, another report from a game developer saying or we're going to just delete our game rather than have to pay this, which is what the cold of lamb developers said. I think they're still gonna ep their game up.

But and there are a couple of really specific big problems to the first being that it's not even necessarily clear how they track installs, that they're basically saying, yeah, we have this model. It's totally data compliant with data regulations, totally not privacy invading, also totally accurate. And also I totally won't.

If somebody decides they hate you and they want to run a giant like route install bombing campaign to drive up your costs, that will also totally not include that. But no one has really figured out exactly what that means. And second, that installs are just not a thing that inherently makes developers money. So they're charging for this thing that doesn't actually tie directly to revenue.

And that's what the that's what Scott people pissed is. This thing is just feels really, really agree ous to them. IT feels like IT came on really, really quickly and their zero communication unity just saying, yeah, we know you pay us every year to use our engine.

Now you have to pay us more. Oh, you've had this game you developed on this engine for the last ten years or either learn a new engine or cough up the cash. And that just feels like extortion. It's not legally extortion, but IT sure feels like IT to developers.

How real do you think the threat is from all these developers who are saying basically will .

leave unity and to pay these people? Looking into that, I think it's for a lot .

of it's not realistic .

if you've a huge of work for most of them, it's probably not real, alisa, but a lot of the most well, i'm never gonna velocity in unity again and i'll probably pull those games right. Yeah if if you're big developer, you can afford to pull a game that made you a little money and you don't want to pay anymore and go off and do something else. So it's kind of while that unity did this and the theories are everybody's got a theory on why they did at the most common one is they like money, which is fair. Um a lot of people think that might be because against impact, which is huge on mobile and makes a lot of money and and .

unity would like abha downtown. And here's .

here's a question. So you mentioned the iphone apple pushing in the special computing with the vision pro. They basically need game engines to make a bunch of vision problem.

Unity is court that .

like is a big deal in that world. It's big. Maple hates epic, which makes the big competitor right. Like unreal is not going to show up on apple platforms as the alternative community, right? Anytime the .

different engines like unity is Better for monument in value in smaller games like that, graphically intensive. But it's not like that photo realism you don't see that is often in unity games as you do. And unreal, which makes sense because that's also less like taxing to the processor, which is one of the reasons unity is so popular with meta. Also about us, deals were made and stuff like that.

but is still one of the relatively you have fewer options for developing three d and spatial games then you do for developing two d games. And unity is definitely one of the huge three d options because there are plenty of games that are three d but not photo realistic and including .

a lot of things. So just onderstand the midst of all of this, just turning the screw one time. You've covered VR more than anybody that i've ever met. This has some huge impact on how apple's relationship to developers is going to go as they were, not the vision pro, right? Like if all developers are mad at the main engine, where else are they are going to go?

It's a very good question, and it's partly a question ash is actually doing reporting on right now like there are alternatives that you can use. One of them is gaddo, which is an open source engine, which is very tiny and is very hard. But yeah, it's it's a good question whether that's a thing that makes unity feel like a conflux.

right? That's going to want to where is this leverage coming from? Like if you're like we're onna pss off everyone, usually it's because you can't like you're redit.

I was just going to say, this is what reddit like. We need more money. We're going to put off everyone.

Where are you going? yeah. And they just waited. And it's some parts of editor still just a mess, but they just waited. And it's fine because we gonna a go who's a competition and that there is an echo of that in this unity conversation, especially as IT relates to IOS because the thing that is the natural competitor is at such odds with apple at the .

corporate level. Yeah, i'm going to be really curious to see how apple responds to this over the next few weeks because IT happened in .

the middle of their event talking so much about mobile gaming.

Yeah, he feels like I don't think new or that probably wouldn't have happened that .

it's also not particularly good for apple like it's not great for apple if one of the bottle next for their platform is suddenly taking a big fee from developers that apple doesn't see part of the only apple.

The apple doesn't like money changing hands. If he doesn't take three percent of money, we're going to keep covering a sense of ashes. A lot of reporting in the works will put that on the site.

Uh, it's a big deal like you. We cancelled events. There were death. Read this um which again I will point out is inappropriate. Isn't apple or the google both just overall this entire line up of headphones, the spector fold is out, affordable seventeen PC, which the very cool a level where about top and the the workers of the big key automakers turn back this week.

which change you were in a million .

new video games and a million new vigor and the state to ay this week on top of that IT continues to be september just prevents lesly. September is the name of any relentingly september of any lipa it's it's up on garb A I think you like IT. We've got bunch events coming up.

The code conference is at the end of this month. Uh, here's the news. Virtual tickets for the coconuts are now and sale. All the main tickets are so that so you can, if you want to watch the conference, go to the flash code and you can sign up a virtual ticket and stream the thing my twigger from artifact is coming, his ext of instagram at the cofounder of artifact, the news APP David just read about. They wrote .

that leagues, yeah, they want to be like the the place to share a cool stuff on the internet. Because twitter used to be that.

and now twitter and love that. And I have you even attention little company called disney, a lots of weird in disney world, in disney, 嗯， lots weird making mouse is coming to code. Disney bob yi er has been hinting that he might sell A B C, get rid of a bunch of stuff partner with.

He has been all the stuff. Uh, byan Allen, who is the owner of the company, owns the weather channel. We invited him because they are doing a bunch A, I stuff in the weather channel, climate change, A I whole thing. Turns out he wants to buy A B, C for ten billion .

dogs like hemon next star. yes. So both of them are are smaller companies. They're less .

known .

for for yeah being disney.

They're not disney, but it's a big deal. And what we thought was not about using A I now it's all people, local communities deal with climate change. But now we're going to talk about what are not he's gona buy A B, C. There's bunch of other great .

speakers i'm excited about IT. Also next week, we have microsoft and na is on event because this just does not stop. And there a youtube and and the youtube and make youtube.

there's a calendar will put in the we made calendar so can be ribe to and they follow the events with us. It's going to be a crazy month. Were excited about IT.

Okay, that's that's of her chest. We've gone far over. You're looking .

at me expected .

looking glass room.

And that's a rap of verge cast this week. We'd love to hear from you. Should does an email at verge cast at the verge dot com.

The verge cast is a production of the verge and the box media podcast network. The show is produced by me, liam James and our senior audio director, Andrew marino. Our editorial director is brookman ters. That's IT. We'll see you next week.

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