Epic wins for Epic and Threads
01:41:25 Share

Support for the verge cast comes from strike. Strike is a payments in billion platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like uber, B, M W and door dash. Striping has help countless startups and establish companies like reached their groth goals, make progress on their emissions and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a sweet of specialized features and tools to fash track growth like stripe billing, which makes IT easy to handle subscription based charges, invoices and all reactions ring revenue management needs. You can learn how stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at stripe dot com that striped out com to learn more, right, make progress.

Support for the show .

comes from service. Now the AI platform for business transformation. You've heard the big hype around A I, and the truth is A I is only as powerful as the platform is built into service. Now is the platform that puts A I to work for people across your business, removing frustration for your employees, super charging productivity for developers, providing intelligent tools for your service agents to make customers happier, all built into a single platform you can use right now. And that's why the world works with service now is a service now can flash A I for people to learn more.

Hello, i'm work in the verge chest amErica number one source of cyberia ck wipers news breaking news on the verge chest that the cyberia ck wipers b is one blade IT will cost seventy nine llys place in the entire I believe will cost one hundred sixty nine fourteen i'd actually I know the second .

one that sounds .

like believe I was like.

yeah that that sounds .

like accurate and what if we because um I .

am a friendly like that David peers having identity crisis. I transit's here I am your friend that also believes .

that the right Price, that sounds right.

I don't think you can prize something at four hundred and twenty cents. Just there's a tale in there.

You can you just like you put an astros next two things .

about the cystic before we begin to that. There's a shock there, a huge week for those. The example drama, I will say, uh, threads officially a launch actuality pub support in minor ways.

You can we talk about that? That's a big deal. And then big news of the week.

Maybe the year, maybe the century. Uh, google lost the N I trust case with epic, epic one, the N H. X case against google.

Shaan holes in the quarter room every day. He received him sweet at the end of bit. He's going during the show.

Want to talk all about what happened there and what that means. And then, of course, we're not letting out. But let's begin with the .

cybernetic wiper, which is what do the most important news of the time.

just people are here. So many, many, many people sent me Jason commission video of the on on shape. I think i've mentioned hagi in the change before.

This is like a great youtube channel. Js, really good. That video is very controversial because IT is funding, is a funding.

Look at the cyber trucking. You can whatever you can have whatever feelings about that in in that video, in that moment. sure.

In that video, he waves around a cyber truck libre on his lap. IT shows that it's one blade, but it's all for so I just didn't want that. I couldn't engage with that.

You know, mean, did you just almost say the phrase floppy blade and decide to run away from that?

Do you do you see where i'm at with IT?

Yeah so the evidence that IT .

was one single blade was there at the launch day when the video americas and Jason chema and and I think Better train had want to I just couldn't I couldn't be like, this is what solved the mystery I just in my heart didn't .

you know know the blade can't solve the mystery. I understand.

After all, this work is just a floppy play.

So then this week i'd be a people are sending to me and I appreciate all the cybercrime riber detections out this week, the parts manual for the cybercrime one online. What's interesting about IT is some people can see Prices in IT and we cannot. Uh, so march here.

Staff has a tesla one three and with this account can see the Prices on twitter. People are going through IT and they can see the Prices. Es, there's discrepancy there.

We're digg into why, you know why? Please email IT for test the verge S I com. But in their cyberia cked wipe or single lade seven hundred dollars, which in the grand scheme of luxury vehicle wiper blades is not that high.

But I would just ask you to look into your heart. Imagine a triangle in the decide if you think the cyber truck White er should cost as much as like A B M W M three wiper. You just tell me, I don't only answer to that question.

I mean, A B M W, yes, IT should same kind of person.

right? And that's a rochez everybody that's talk trans and all trains roch stuck come.

You all read idiots and cars on reddit. You know what i'm saying? yes.

How much the turn single stock cost to be? right? I do anyway, that's the cyber c libraries, we believe, based on the available evidence and is a single floppy blade.

I don't know, man. I just you watch the video. There's a video of market is driving into the rain and his video is really good, but you should watch more. Let's find even the James one is really fund that. The production is very high.

Um he he's wiping and you can see IT bending as IT wipe and they're if any if there's something other than rain, for example, snow or ice is the thing just kind of bend at the halfway point? I don't know and I don't know. I don't want to review this truckle.

I understand this. Four will sterling and forty eight vole steer by wire? There's technology you can hit with a hammer whatever you want.

I just want to use the wiper. Anybody can elexa oha. Ian, i'm talking you, but one.

Can I meet your life too? I can. I try your product?

Like this is one again, getting into a ized forever vision of reviewing cars without ever going anywhere in them. Like I just wants to sit inside of a car that is not going anywhere and review IT that way.

Just push, push all the button sequentially. IT will be great. All right, that's the cyber truck update for this week.

Once again, the virtues, your number one source of cyber clipper news and its all things so listeners like you purchased com. All right, big week for looks Turner DRAM. Yeah, big week for roasted s apple drama. Although I think if you're an apple security team, maybe this isn't so this takes for you, David. Tell the people what is going on the peeper mini and I message.

okay. So last week, uh, you guys that we're on the pod talking about this new APP beeper mini that came out from this company, be that if you listen the verge ast you to talk about a few times, it's like a universal messaging APP. And they have come out with a new APP called beeper, many for android that made you completely seamlessly blue bubbles on IOS.

Uh, big deal meant you could send native im messages to iphone users that would fix your group chats like huge win. And everybody got very excited. A apple didn't say anything when I came out, has not really said anything over months about these apps in general.

Like beepers been kind of making noise about how attacking I messes for a while. Com is the thing that exists sunbird. And nothing did that weird thing not that long ago.

Ablt hasn't said anything. And uh I and others on our team have been pestering apple for weeks to say something about this like this. If apple is the security focus company believes IT is IT should have something to say about whether these are a good idea or not.

Ah we didn't hear anything for a long time and then last uh friday, right after you guys published the verge cast because the news is a fun and sickle thing, a IT started to become clear that beeper mini was not working anymore. People couldn't messages. And the ongoing assumption was that apple had found a way to shut IT down.

The beepers team starts like furious, tried to fix IT. Eric mj. Osi, the founder, is talking to everyone he can find who will listen to him about why apple should not shut this down, one, why it's good for the world, why it's making things more secure even for iphone users.

On on, on on, uh, on saturday, as i'm sitting in the hyper X E ports arena in los vegas waiting for the world excel championships, which is the thing i'm sure we will talk more about in the future. Uh, I get I get a note from apple saying, finally, we have something mistake. And basically what apple did was confirmed.

They took steps to shut down deeper mini. And kind of, without saying in exactly those words, said they intend to keep doing that. And that has worked this whole fight where beeper then spent the next few days trying to get back up and running.

Apple seems to have kind of taken steps to shut IT down again. After I got up and running, bieber got a version of IT that was still functional. Bit less impressive where you still had used an apple I D, and you were only message from your email, not your phone numbers was kind of a half measure.

And basically we're now in this like cattle msk me where beepers is both like on principal and for the sake of its product. Deeply committed to the idea of getting eye message working. And apple has made very clear that he is not going to allow that to happen.

And uh, it's perfectly possible that things will change eight more times between when I am saying this and when you heard this podcast. But as of right now, that's where we stand like two sides fundamentally at odds. And neither one really has even a move to back down at this .

point when I just read the statement from apple because I think it's fascinating um and again, this was sent David while he was at the excel world championships and he message me what I believe was nine pm on a friday night night saying, can you edit this I met i'm in less vous just an incredible message. Here's the whole statement from for maple.

At apple, we build our products and services with industry leading privacy and security technologies, is designed to give users control over data and keep personal information safe. We took steps to protect our users by blocking techniques that exploit fake credentials in order to gain access to eye message. These techniques pose significant releases, security and privacy, including the potential for meddle, a exposure and enabling unwanted messages, spam and fishing attacks.

We will continue to make updates in the future to protect our user. So this is a really interesting statement to me. One IT exists. That's that's something it's not nothing, right?

We people should know this is worth saying out loud. I'm sure we have set this in the past. But like we ask apple to comment on things that happen in and around the apple world all the time and the vast majority of the time we get absolutely nothing. Occasionally we will get a like we declined to comment and then you get that like can statement that apple says every once in a they acquire a company just like apple quires company time, the number of requisition uh, so yet the very existence of a multiple sentence comment from apple is unbelievably so that's .

just one thing like the the amount of pure signal from this statement existing is very high. Apple felt like I needed to shut this down. IT felt he needed to explain why.

And you know you, everyone knows about our background rules. We said, put a name on IT and they put a name, great. And then IT explains how they blocked IT, which is super interesting, right? There's the level of technical detail in here.

They block techniques to exploit fake credentials in order to gain access time message. I'll come back to that then. IT explains why beeper is dangerous and apple's view they don't have to do that. right?

There's something in there where apple felt like they have to say there are risks to security and privacy and what those risks are meter, meter data exposure, enabling unwanted messages, spam and fishing attacks. This is vastly more information than anyone actually needs or that, honestly, that apple, like these, are their servers you can feel however you want to. But one totally legitimate avenue for apple to take here is to say we locked an access or servers or our servers go away and apple has done things like that a million times.

Yeah like we're having this conversation in the context of epic v google, which was preceded by epic apple. You overcall. Apple responded to epic launching up in at building system on IOS by shutting down access to unreal engine.

You like.

this is not a company that x lightly when IT x so one talking about the why just really quickly. And then I want to go back to the house. And the house important actually with how be first getting around IT.

Now the why here, I think they have to say why, because there was demand for deeper mini. There were people, lots and lots and lots, lots of people were excited about IT. They want this product. So for apple to take IT away from them, they had to provide some reasons for why, why it's being disallowed, why experiences being broken that people liked and people wanted. And those reasons have to be good in.

In general, when he comes to large companies and their servers, the thing they turn into a security, yes, and the security ari might be valid and saying in general, when they're like, what's a morally unemptied reason for doing whatever we want, the answer is always security. And so I don't know what the actual potential for meta data exposure is. That's a weird one, especially because apple right now isn't a bit of crisis over a the cops just asking for push notification data and getting IT with that warrants.

That's a real problem in IOS apples plugin that whole but changing the policy. But I was a real problem like you're worried about meditated exposure. There's there are bigger fish to fry um but this is really interesting right there.

They're laying out meddle a exposure which is basically cops asking for medica from companies that don't have the resources to fight back with beeper. And then all this enabling, I want to us. So that's the why, and you can you can evaluate why on your own.

But big companies often turn to security. Apple turn to security, then there's the hell we block techniques to exploit fake credential. So beeper was coming up with what fake real numbers of yeah .

they're using like they're spooking ing serial numbers that already existed for for like mac products.

And this is the thing that enabled them to just register any phone number, time message. But you did not need an apple I D. So now you do need an apple I D and inside of an email address. And I truly wonder if there is still a fake credential or an old serial number in the mix and whether apple will be able to stop IT.

Yeah it's hard to know because I think um eric and the beeper team have gotten maybe not surprisingly, less open about how all of this works. Um they were very confident ten days ago, they put out a whole big like White paper about how the tech ork a lot of IT was open source. They're this is what we did and how we did IT.

And the assumption was where they're only being this honest because there's nothing apple can do about IT, right? So that was like the line going around was if apple wanted to stop this IT would have to shut down a huge portion of via method turns out not the case. Um so bieber has definitely like locked down some of its exploitation.

But what IT used to do and the early days of people per, was just sign you into your apple I D on a mac mini in a server rack somewhere that is in every way you can think about IT insecure, right? Like that meant, I meant your messages and your apple I D information was sitting on a computer that you did not know, like straight forward insecurity. What beeper says now is that IT is figured out kind of a good middle road.

How to take some of that on device in cypher and added security in deeper mini and applied IT back to, to some extent, the old way of doing things. It's not on to make many anymore. It's still in your device, but they're going IT seems like through the same old log in through your apple ids surface. So they found kind of A A half measures that seems to solve some problems.

But IT IT screws up the main thing, which is that no longer works with your phone number, like eric has been texting me this week from his gmail account, which is not the same as your phone number is just not and so beeper mini is like kind of A A nee captain version of what IT once was. But IT does seem to have, at least if you believe deeper. And that is kind of the open question um is IT is back in a lot of the right security practices here, which is good yeah the one .

thing that I think is fasting at this entire audio now we should smoove on because this is just going a cat mask game for long time. Beeper is very confident in their technical solution, right? And that turned out to not be the case.

And another very confident in this technical solution, maybe, look, go back to phone numbers and whatever that is the technical side of this. Can apple defeat this exploit? Maybe they can, maybe can.

Maybe he will be high mass. River feels will be high mass. Ver, there is a gigi legal problem here, right?

The beeper users and I just accessing apple servers without permission in apple has lawyers. I don't know that there's quite few of them and they are not shy. Uh and I think that this is right.

That's try the last resort here again, just the presence of the statement indicates to me that apple knows that has to explain its behavior in blocking this on a technical level if they can do that and they have to resort to a legal level or a contractual level, right to say, okay, if you you on religion, if you are using if you are using our servers in unapproved way, we're just going to turn off your apple ties. You're done. You're out.

That's just the contractual al thing they can do. You broke our terms of service. You're done. No more, no more access to your photos.

They could do IT to right other platforms, do stuff like that all the time, do want them to like I don't think they want to do that to people if they go and and sue beeper or a violation of computer fdd abuse act, which is a very controversial state like that's not like a cotton and dry. You're morally correct when you invoke to cfa do do you want to have that fight? Do you want to go to court again? I can send shaan to that quarter to which stories streams are great.

You know, I just think apple would preferred to defeat us on a technical level, and I think people would prefer to a technical level. There is a whole set of other levels that is vastly ly more complicated that apple has not touched yet. Actually kind of shocked. They haven't even sent the letter to be bryant.

It's like.

stop IT me that to me, they could have .

just been told us.

I think I think eric would happily publish that this yeah.

I agree that that would be other what I think on the one hand, I think the reason apple hasn't done that yet is the thing that paper holding on to, which is that people want peeper. Like, I think if you just subtract all of this way, it's like, okay, what should the world look like? Peppers, right? right?

Like, I want to live in a world where peeper mini exists. IT is Better, inOperable message is Better across platform messaging is Better. The whole Green bubble, blue bubble thing is stupid.

And we should do whatever IT takes to get rid IT. I believe all of those things, I also believe apple is absolutely within its right to shut IT all down, right? Like both of those things are true.

Uh, I think apple has started to pick a public fight here that beeper can make very ugly for IT. If IT wants to, an apple will fight. Those fight to fight comes to IT IT.

IT will pick a privacy fight in the court of public opinion or in literal port when IT comes to IT. But that's a pretty big battle. And uh eric an ever have proven they're willing to be very loud about this and y're willing to be very principled in their argument for an open internet. And that's just a hard fight to fight if you're apple without looking like the bed.

well, they have an obligation.

Yeah because they kind of of the back, they are allowed to be the bad guy. They're well within their right to be the bad guy, but they will look like the .

bad guy if they apple kind of a has to pick up a little bit, right, because he does have the regulators in the E U. IT. Has regulators looking in the united states in one of its big defenses for all of its really like kind of bad practices, is that in security, security, security. So any time there is like these security bubs, they they have to do IT. Otherwise that argument falls apart in all those other places, right?

right? But I think the more a aggressively and loudly apple, right picks a fate with peepers, uh, the worse it's gonna look doing so because it's one thing to say we're doing something to protect our users. It's another thing to say we are out to destroy this, start up full of people who just want to make messaging Better.

Well, it's very similar to jail breaking where like they weren't necessarily always going out and conceding letters to jail break ers. They were usually closing those holds quietly and then people would get upset and then they would just slowly start taking all of the good stuff from jail breaking and put IT into the apple to what we're like. Nobody really jail breaks.

Phones is often anymore because you don't have to like, you don't get anything of real value for the majority of people. And he feels like this kind of the same thing here. Or they can just like keep making like this, if the solution for bieber becomes like a wheeled enough, then bieber goes away because nobody wants to just be sending text via their email. And in apple wins in kind of that similar jail right way of just like, well, the other of the options, crummy enough, do you really want to do IT? And most apple users are like, now i'll just go to android .

and totally and we're kind of headed down that road now, right, like even the beeper team has been. Tweet, as this is all gone back in fourth lake. We understand this is a pain we get IT if you want to bail while we try to fix this out like we will figure this out like there, clearly feeling the hit of how complicated apple is making their lives.

yeah. But at the same time, Elizabeth warning is out here, tweet about peeper and what is happening to Green bubbles and blue bubbles, which is like all this. This might be a fight coming for apple in a way that IT doesn't one end is probably not likely to try and look like the heavy on more than a test.

You, I don't know, I don't think this is anywhere near over. Yeah, I might guess, would be beeper mini never gets back to being what IT was, but this fight gets louder and ugar in other directions. And I have no idea where IT .

lids that feels.

right? Yeah, I get the feeling that apple is going to just end up in an rcs support to solve all these problems, right? This is why they're doing IT.

They they basically made this horse trade with eupeptic gulati were going to support our cand. You're not going to make us open a message in exactly the way that people are trying to open up my message and eventually they will kill peeper IT. Just seems like the question is whether they can do IT on technical level or whether they have to resort to the more aggressive legal level.

I I think the fact the a conceded the R C S question means that they're not onna hesitate to kill IT. They're gna maybe hesitate and how fast they kill IT and hope and probably assume that they will do IT on a technical level with what feels like an uncompetitive security rational rather than a legal level and what feels like good, you know, much less fun business rational. This thing for are locking, right? That's the answer.

Yeah like we have the emails from E, D, Q to fill sholder where edd q is like we should open a bia message to android and fill shellers and believe this filler eller this filter crack writes back. This is the thing that parents hand down their iphones to their kids for you. So no, and that's just dead on as IT gets. And I I lost you based on that seems way less fun.

Then a bunch of engineers fighting alexi to hear point about gel breaking a huge number of members of the joa, huge number of the geographical unity with apple engineers of really and I think there's I think I think there I think apple new ah there there is a lot of yeah there there some stories I get, I guess but well, that does aside, that's what I don't remember how off the record stories are. That's what i'm trying to tell you there so long ago that I don't remember if they were secrets not but IT is true just on its face. Uh, you go back and this through IT, uh, a substantial amount of the job c community was rely on apple engineers fast.

So bieber.

that's that's your answer. Gap jai, iphone, that's your answer. Um alright, let's talk about other messaging news, which is much more exciting but also that interrogate, which is activity.

Pub had a big moment today. Mason had a big mon today. Threats had big table table o on there.

So the biggest thing that, well, two big things happened to threats this week, one is that is now available in the E. U. 啊。 So to everyone who has gotten a bunch of new followers putting use where there should just be OS.

H, that's why there's some of those people. And the other thing is mark sucker, kind of out of nowhere posted on threads. That threads is now starting to integrate with activity pub in a very small way.

Basically, you can now read threads, posts from a couple of accountants like adam materia and a couple of other metal people right now. But IT ultimately IT will be everybody who's on threads. You can read their posts on, massed on or in any other activity pub APP like that.

So this is, this is the first real step in federating threads with the rest of the activity pub universe. And for months, there's spent this debate. These threads are going to do this now that they see it's a big potential business and it's so successful, maybe they will walk away.

And I have said over and over and over like, no, we plan to do this for real and um IT appears that work is like very seriously underway. People are starting to see adam a series threats posts in their massive on clients, which is kind of mind bending in the cool lest way like it's happening. It's the best yeah .

he's atmosphere at at third, third night, I said I followed him from my map on social account using the mamah APP and then I opened my regular mass client and looked at my account and I was there. And this is the future that's IT like i'm using multon clients to access one account in content from another server entirely that is earned by meter.

Showing up here, including a video, the first imposers of video yeah and a bunch of other threats folks, including their engineers are are posted a little jokes like they went from four or four or two hundred um you you know they're just like playing with IT. Now the cool stuff is not there yet, right? Like this has been enabled on the level of what you might think of this R S.

S. Right now. Yeah, that's they publish something on the thread server. Another server can pull IT in. There's no interactivity. There's no true interOperate ability where you're just kind of pulling some content down.

That's so a big deal, right? For a company, I matter to be like we will publish this a syndicated feed of content from our platforms, our social platforms. So like a big deal.

but it's not the thing. Well, in the beauty of IT is this is the part that meta has the least incentive to do, right? Like all of the rest of IT is Better for meta.

Like the thing where in theory, like you described me, you can read atoms post on threads in your master on APP ah that is a third party APP. What meta once and what's ultimately good for meta business is when you can like or reply to that stuff and IT funnies all the way back through that whole stack to threads. So adam can be in threats and you can be in men and you can have a conversation with each other.

That's we're all of this wins. So you wouldn't do the thing where you just let your content go other places without real commitment to building all the stuff that brings you back and all the account sharing stuff they're gonna to do because it'll bring people to threads because threats is the best platform for IT. Like this is not the one part of IT you would do if you weren't committed to do in the rest of IT.

Yeah, and I agree with you. I think what have point out is the other parts way holder doing R S V is pretty easy, right? The part the part where you're like, okay, someone hit like in mmh or ivory or whatever masted on client that like fund to their server, which then talked back to our server and that like showed up on the threats APP.

For somebody that's very complicated. There are real security chAllenges there. The real content generation chAllenger, it's such like, uh, it's also comments and replies repost like all that stuff as you bring you back on the your server, you have to to moderate you to care about IT, whatever.

And I think that's the stuff that's get to build. But you are correct that, that is the stuff that a cruise value back to meter because that makes their community ultimately more viBrant. And I think what Better thinks it's going to sell is Better product design, Better user experience, Better advertising. All this stuff, which, you know, if you're met, it's a pretty good bet to make that you will outdo a handful of massed on several admins things like content, moderation in advertising and integration.

Yeah, I was really interesting. I went back and when I was writing the post that this was just pulling some of met as old quotes about this stuff from the last six months or so as they've been talking about this, and they've been surprisingly consistent in a way I didn't even realize. Like mark zuker in particular, has talked about, this is a creator play.

The idea is that this network of open systems is what creators are going to want, because understood too many times that if you build an ones in one place that is captive to that one place, people will eventually leave, that place will fall apart or whatever, and then you just start from nothing, and nobody wants that. And so what markin a adam mercy have continued to say is the future is these more portable, more interconnected systems. And what meta is betting is that I can build creator tools, right? IT can build the best stuff to use to post IT can build the best A I things that can, like, bring tomorrow in your life in a weird A I when IT can monitor ze you Better like meta is actually sort of divorcing.

The idea of social networking is a good business, which IT turns out it's not. Everybody has figured this out and leaning into. We're going to outsource all of them like hanging out with your friend's bits of this, and we're just going to win at how people make money on these platforms. And I actually think if I met a that's a pretty good bet because meta has proven over over it's Better at that than everybody.

yeah. And I I think IT also creates opportunity for creators and media companies in the from these everyone is right, but we're going to do IT somehow. But if you keep saying it'll eventually have, it's just going force power this thing to his existence. We have give our baseball, our company in all hands today just before we're recording and our ceat the word federer during the all hands. And he did kind of .

say IT like IT was written on a piece of paper from one of him, but he'd never seen IT before.

Guy was standing behind the curtain with a knife. Say IT that just means i've said IT enough then other other people think they should say what is Victory one uh but i'll just use another example um threads lately has a very thirsty for sports threats yeah one of you know this they they said they a bunch of f one fans so they even in the serious video about launching europe today. He's like we want to bring sports communities are deeply rooted in europe like f one year, which is an amazing way to say f one is kind of fussy um they .

did a good thing with the NBA at the inc. And turnaround ent. The other thing was happening in view as I was there, they were like they were big sponsor.

They brought. S P N people, E S P N having this fight with with elon musk and twitter. So they are all cut like it's it's a thing that's happening.

So I was running E S P N today. I would not be like, you can have my reporters for free, right? Wage is not going to tweet scooped for free on threads the way that he's been doing for twitter. I'm setting up a master on server and you can federate with us if you pay us the money for access to the people. And that is just a new way of thinking about these businesses that know punch me the executive like don't like thinking we're like what if we make youtube videos like that's like how they all think you heard of this performance.

Tiktok, like these, are the dinners I go to, but they are all starting to think now, okay, how do we actually get paid for the stuff beyond just being like we can make a go viral Better than anybody else? And so there's just new opportunities for companies, for creators to stand up their own services and say, look, if you want access to us like we need some revenue sharing terms or you need to let us put advertising into our fees the same way that you like instagram craters with advertising and of their feet. And I just think I know if anything that's going to work.

I truly do not know if anything that's going to working. I'd know that it's new and no one has actually like I can't point to anything else that has ever worked like that, and I can't point anything else that could work like that. And so like new things are just like fundamentally exciting to me because I think the way IT shakes out will be different or potentially Better or potentially way worse.

But it's new. I'm just done to hunt for. We've been doing that we can doing at the platform way for ten years.

We just run our big package on twitter in dead, which I don't know people, uh, what twitter is dead yeah it's not that we called the dead. Ian must kill the company and he renewed x windy. A arena was on our stage of code and she's like, twitter is dead.

It's called x now. Okay, so that is that this is whatever but insists that I wrote big piece, but just like what the platform era of media did to all of us. And just as kan is in that and we talked about and the wednesday they show, but I just repeat that he's like twitter increased the scale of our communication and IT reduced the our ability to communicate.

And what if we just like did some other stuff and I promise this activity, pop stuff, it's at least the thing that creates the opportunity for people to think in new, in different ways. IT might not be the thing. You might not work. But I I just have not seen so many people having new ideas about the internet in a long time.

all about social media in particular. But I can have one big question about this whole intergration. What happens for people who have, like a lot of followers, are mastered on and also have a print account? What do they do?

So this is, I would argue, one of the most fun conversations about this right now, because no one knows the answer to that question, because there there is a way of thinking about IT that is like, I have one omnibus fevers account, right? That is, IT is my IT would be the equivalent of having one account that worked across twitter, facebook, instagram, tiktok and everywhere else, right? Your single account, you can actually make a really good case that, that doesn't make any sense, that actually what you're gonna want is a couple of different accounts in different places.

And that the upside is that you choose where you post into what. And so like, you could use your method on account for, just like tweet about the cool new glasses that you got and your threats account could be your work account, and that maybe those things being separate as useful. But the upside of IT is that if I want to read your work account, where I have my personnel account, I can, right? So it's all a sort of platform agnostic.

But there may be a world in which people want lots of different accounts for different uses, but that just gets Bakers like all I have ten accounts for ten different things, but you can access any of them from anywhere is like the U. I. Of that totally part, if we don't do IT correctly.

So I don't know. My guess would be, if I had to bet on something, I would guess that a lot of people will get threads account, because threats is gonna be it's going to be the gmail of this space for a while and then IT just a piece sort of the default one to have. And then we will get to see how that plays out in lots of different directions.

But right now, like I think a lot of us, we've talked to us this on the show, we sort of bet on threads betting a that, that would eventually integrate with activity pub and b, that IT was probably going to be the biggest platform for a while. And there are real values to be on the big gest platform. So like i've spent more time on threads then wasted on.

So when IT comes to IT, I will probably end up investing more in my threads account over time than my mass on account. But when I keep the math, I don't know this is so weird and this is why it's fun. Like to realized point like this is a new thing. We've never actually had to figure out ever talking .

with other friends about this too because like I I don't I never really use master and I ve got like going to count there, but I just is like a placeholder of more than anything else. But I know people who are like very, very active on masted on. And as they started seeing threats getting bigger there, okay, go starting to count there. So active on both.

And one, how do you have the energy? But too like IT was like what's the calculus then like when when it's all interacts, do you maintain both accounts you kill IT? And like I genuinely .

don't you know I don't think any yes. Yeah.

I think there's some real value to having different places for different .

things hundred percent.

These are you. I do not know how people are like being goblins on blue skin and being whatever went in version themselves.

They are on also goblin's different kind of goblin but still pretty gabbin.

They're like little tie on threads .

um but like I can see a world again I don't think this work I know this a good idea. I don't know we going to build in this, but I can just see a world where my work personality tweet about tech and silliness happens at you know nei at the verge stot com and you can follow that on threats and then shows up in our home page gon are great post and the federated you can have you just follow me where you are and then tweet about iron Roger said and somewhere else right um and that just seems Better and maybe maybe you wanted to slam all that up together.

Maybe some people will, but IT just feels like for too long we have just slam too many things together, right? And actually being like, okay, I built one distribution channel for one kind of audience that I can culture and grow. I can build another distribution channel for my friends or my family that isn't like a wholesale platform shift.

Like i'm this person on instagram in the format of short videos, this person on twitter in the format of deeply starkey text posts, right? The most nyalong tic version of myself on twitter and on this person on threat like that, having the format dictate what kind of thing you're doing, I think, is force IT just caused a lot of weird shit happen. And I think saying OK, you have lots of different fees, different counts and you can you kind of format independent, but you're chasing different things. You know I don't know any .

that work yeah I I think I think that that trips me up there. This kind of of been doing more than one account for a while now, right like fin ce their accounts and stuff like that. But what happens is people inevitably go and have that one account because that's where they have the most interaction. And so like, are you really gonna na take your a reckless at Green bag dot social um account and and only use that when you have like fifty followers there who also have the same feelings about iron Rogers, I assume more than fifty people have those feelings but like is, you know, are you going to want to do that? And then when you have this much bigger mouth piece over here, and we just really curious how people we're going to do feel about that.

I feel I just wanted say this now. And this is what .

i've given .

him even more attention psychodrama love, as I call him, psyche, please. I need an they can just for that, just to make fly heart, my heart, that social. When you type foregone love's name into the iphone to text group chat about IT, IT replaces that with the Jordanian fig heart icons. And I can fly hard. We can make this happen together.

Jordan, if you're listening.

and I know that you are excess, can I meet your wife and Jordan love and drive your truck as a road trip? I would not try. I would go on that trip in a hard just the weird is four people in the cyber truck .

did quiet.

So two of your world class athletes. Both of us were very active unread IT when we were.

I don't know. I'm excited about IT. I think it's really fun if you have a mass. And I just like, do IT do the thing. Follow material is ready.

The third most followed person, the fees by one chart that I was wild and follows some people on, just try IT out like IT will change your brain a little bit, right? It's like a follow button that you just don't expect to exist. Oh, this is Better, like there's something Better about IT. I am in much more control of the situation.

I think it's gonna.

I know great, but it's going to be different and i'm definitely in the market for different yeah agree same hi we have take break in the come back shang houses until all about epic first school.

Support for the show comes from crucible moments, a podcast from scope capital. We've all had turning points in our lives where the decisions we make end up having lasting consequences. No one knows this Better than the founders of some of today's most influential in Christmas moments.

Let's listeners in on the maker break events that defined major companies like dropbox, youtube, Robin hood and more told by the founders themselves. Tune in to the season two of crucial moments. Today you can listen at crucial moments, stop com, or where ever you .

listen to podcasts.

Hey, italian from decoder with neither top. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into summer, the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT? And of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech can hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the lie presented by strike. You can listen to the coder whatever you get your podcast.

We're back, sean. How are are looking the very chest thank you. Thank me IT again ah and very excited.

Talk to you. You spent every single day in the courtroom for the epic v google trial. You were there when the verdict came in, which was very fast.

was IT like a month was the whole .

thing on how long I into fortnight in fortnight court, because IT there was fourteen actual days of bigger court. I know a fourteen includes nights to whatever, but yes, the trial lasted like four weeks plus like one day we have fridays off. But I spent fourteen natural days in the courtroom.

And on this last day, uh, we expected the verdict might come in quickly for google and cabin quickly for epic. And none of made not myself, not any of the other courting reporters expected that. That was a huge supporters.

So I just want to congratulate strong here inside baseball shon beat everyone by minutes, if not ours, to publishing the story of verdict. So congratulations, shown well, well played .

power of a pre written step.

Don't tell the people how we do IT. Sean wood.

sixty five stories for every possible outcomes.

Shawn hoster in the multiverse .

IT IT was for a private four stories.

So there's a version where google wins one, epic wins one wear like the courtroom explodes ah and then one where the judge is just like never mind .

at all of you buy iphone, get out of my face .

is exactly .

so epic one IT would run away Victory the google found for IT on every claim that's the headline. What's back up here? A lot of people are very familiar with apple, the epic in which apple one, on virtually every claim. There are some key differences in the trial. What were these cases about and what were those differences?

Oh my god. So I actually have an outline of with the differences, because this is the question on everybody's mind. How could google possibly have lost this case when apple one is an apple, the obvious monopolist with the world garden and everything like that.

But whole bunch of inks that i'd heard and and red told me that these were very different. First of the lawyers, both sides were telling me before we began, these are logistically different cases with different evidence, different judges. The apple verdict doesn't Carry anyway here.

And not only that, they were not able to bring up the apple case in the courtroom. The judge said, you don't talk about this, so Carry is no wait at all. Uh, the next big thing, of course, is that google controls its ecosystem with all these third party business deals.

Where's apples? I don't know. There are more unfair looking documents in more hands because google had to like handout all these contracts to these different companies.

which just has to like send more emails with more attachments. Really IT else. Like that was a big part of this. Emails.

absolutely emails. And just just one word.

that means everything. And you can buy a shirt.

We've on this for like ages, we wrote a peace. And twenty eleven, twenty twelve, one of the first years, the verge about the skyhook case where we saw how google tries to control the ecosystem through hold these contracts. But so many of them came out in this moment and someone even looked unfair.

And I don't know if like unfair would have sweated judge, but I think IT may have swayed a jury who looked at these like blatantly unfair. Spotify gets to pay you know nothing to google to be in the google place store, while other companies have to pay twenty six or thirty percent like that seems politely unfair. The jury saw that they saw google trying to keep this secret and they didn't like that jury in front of a book that was one of the big things here. Um they thought that google had a lot of things to hide, especially all of these chats .

between various .

executives that were being auto deleted by the corporate policy at the time for document attention. The judge is like what the fuck are go you're supposed to keep the documents for us so that we can look at them in the courtroom. And google was like that whenever .

change any that stuff.

So can I just say one thing about this? Actually I I was in court for USB google when sooner but I was testifying and they brought this up to him too and he absolutely won that interaction, uh, which was so fascinated to me because the case that he made essentially was there was this one thread that they brought up with him uh, in which the last thing you see is him saying, uh, can you turn off history please and so they turn off history and that's obviously and of the thing as they stop string IT, so they bring this up and they give sooner this whole long speed about, you know, you're destroying evidence, this is disaster and and his response is essentially, what did you find any more versions of that happening? And they were like, how would we know you deleted if you found this one? Because I asked them to turn off history.

Did you find any other times, right? And turn off history and and the layer goes, no. And that's the end.

And soon are just like Victoria sits back and that immediately went away in U. S. B, goole and IT was such a non issue. But in this one, I just opt being.

I want to get into this. I just want to point something out that I think is often forgotten when we cover the legal system one, we have an audience attack people, and people believe the legal system is deterministic, like it's an algorithm, but he put in some inputs and you get an output and you can predict output. Not true.

I think we've learned over and over again in amErica over the past. People, not true, almost completely random, especially when there's a dream involved. Uh and then i'm a lawyer and married to a lawyer and have a lot of friends or a lawyer.

And just going to say this, and we can all just react with everyone, some lawyers are Better than other lawyers. And if you're epic, you can afford really good lawyers. And if you are the united states government, hire e Better.

It's just right. Like prosecutors like you, you just see IT I I got just like you can just react and whatever you want, but you can just see that some lawyers are Better than other. And there's that's a real difference in these cases for sure.

Epic afforded some really good lawyers here. I was very impressed with how just how much and how they put the witnesses on edge and and turned google witnesses against google and all the all these things. I was surprised that google lawyers didn't have a Better defense, but they had were a very difficult position here because epic spend this whole thing is this tale of good and evil with all of these unfair documents on the table.

And google was left to explain away all these complicated business deals, which might make sense in might. We've been convinced to judge, hey, this is just Normal business practices. You've seen this in your courtroom a thousand times, but the jury hasn't. The jury hasn't seen all these unfair deals and epic constantly. Every google executive that came on to understand, every google witness that was there got grilled hard about their emails and about these deleted chats.

You know, how will we ever know what's in your, what's in your chat? Never know so soon are that the judge was willing to let soon dar pass the buck epix lawyer was all like, know you you agree that you're responsible for everything that goes on a google, right? But after the jury filed out the courtroom judge data was you okay okay, soon I um I accept that you got bad advice from your lawyers maybe but I want the buck to stop with somebody bring your chief legal officer in the court so the judge hold in google chief legal officer for over I wanna over an hour of questioning about how the heck out this happened and he did not look at on the stand google .

co judge was .

not buying IT can't er a uh google google's atterley sorry, epic attorney whose name's escaping me right now but he was amazing and and SHE just just completely throw him off baLance to judge double teams can't Walker with this with this this tourney and like I don't understand this is either can you can you explain those things you just said to me again, mr. Walker and and he wasn't having anything and he ended the judge judge, almost one of the panel ultimate things. The judge another didn't in the case is he said he's going to personally .

investigate .

google ass for deleting all these chats and for for abusing one google lawyer internally called fake legal privilege. We saw whole budget documents during the case that we're marketing in confidential and privileged and google executive, including soon darpa chi agreed that the only reason some of the things were marked confidential privilege was thought that they wouldn't be forwarded around the company internally and potentially fAllen out their hands.

It's not a good when the judge vows to person ally, investigate your company after the time over. So here's that I want to know, show. And then we can dive in to some of the mayor of the case.

This was happening. The judge is furious about this, what we thought to us every so we're seeing all these documents. You route a great recap of all the documents, all the deals.

The judge struck the jury, like you can interpret the lack of documentation in the hiding any way you want, which is a big wing link on how to interpret them. And yet everyone thought google would win. why? Like that's the part that is why why was survived in the court in the google would win quickly here.

I think the vivo in the courtroom was that google would win because of the key question that we always asking an antitrust trial market definition. Google been arguing since the very beginning of the case that whatever IT did IT was justified because he does all these things. So android can compete with the iphone.

And if you say the market definition here is iphone versus android, android competing with iphone, consumers are choosing to buy an iphone versus an android phone. How is epic going to say, hey google, you have a monopoly on phone. Hey google, you have a monopoly on apps? Epic wanted everybody to think that google has a monopoly on android APP distribution very specifically, and on android in out payments where kind IT does. I mean, yes, there's is a samsung's APP store, but epic convincingly show that samsung's APP store accounts for barely any everybody wants .

is and that it's all of that is because of google ab system. The google has done the work to ensure the same can play. That's the substance of IT.

I just for one second, I want to sit on why everyone thought google win. So I read that right? Okay, that's market definition. Apple just one. Android is technically more open than the iphone. Even if contractually IT is not more open as we have learned, of course, that google is going to win, right, the phones more more open .

on its face and in so many ways, too. I mean, yes, you can have your other upstart on the phone, but you can also sides load apps. Since the very beginning, evander, I was holding at my t mobile g one phone, and I would download an apk off the internet, and I would put IT on there.

I don't know any of these days exactly. I don't know anybody, any of us do IT these days, because so many things are on the place store already. And why would't you go there? But like the idea that you can put an APP on the on android phone, so many different ways you can put on the iphone, how could you, google, have a monopoly and android distribution?

The other thing that I think is just sort of reverberating here, and I think we all noticed that, was the lack of interest in a cool case compared to the apple case like the applies was like a star study. Our traffic charts are off the charts, everything google burbo along and shown a great like a lot of people covered the google trial by just following, shown a stories stream yeah which is yeah great that the service we provide. But we could see there is a different level of interest. And the thing that i'm honing in on is one, I think everyone assumes that big companies always when there in interest cases was this ah and in two, I think people thought I was boring and IT appears that the jury did not think IT was boring, right? This is like the key thing that everyone missed is the jury was like, oh, this is pretty exciting and interesting in dramatic actually yeah.

not only was the jury paying attention, throughout almost the entire trip we saw some ions and like a when a couple of the expert economists came in and spent a while explaining in a basic market theories, there were a few Young, but most of times they were extremely attentive. They were looking over at the person asking the questions. They were looking over at the witness to see what the answers were.

They were looking at the judge. They were looking down at their monitors, looking at all the documents, trying to follow along with some of the slide decks. And they asked questions are literally today, uh, we got to see a few of the questions that the jars are asked during the case.

They wrote notes. The judges said, hey, can you ask google how many of the devices are in the R S. A. Three point of premier tier, which by the way, is the contract that decides whether a OEM can preload another APP store or not onto a phone. So they're like ah to did google actually keep anybody from doing that?

They cared to now to the substance of IT, which is the market. Um I think everybody thinks that the market is I as such as android. But here I think what we are really talking about is google runs android of platforms open.

Anyone can use IT. And there actually is a market for android of distribution. There are other stores.

There are other ways to get android apps on android phones. There is not a market IOS APP distribution, which I think was a real problem for epic. They couldn't argue that apple was unfairly domed market because no market existed.

But that's why that won't became all about payments, right? That was fundamentally of the thing. And like the wind, the epic got was the n cereal stuff.

You could start to tell apple users that other ways to pay for things exist. Uh, but a in that case, I went back in relevant to this. And there's so much of IT that's like apple was able to get away with so much because specifically, IT is so incredibly locked down. And google we thought google relative openness was going to be a reason IT was harder for epic to win. And I think IT actually went the other way and gave epic like a chance to make a case against google that you just can't do because you've to try open apple as a company to do IT.

And that's not to work. I think above.

we talked about this with the with a beepers stuff in the first segment um where we're like apple kind of has an obligation. Their whole brand is we shut everything down, we locked IT down and IT wins the trial after a trial.

Like if you look at this and say, oh yeah, if the minute google started saying, well, sure, we have a nobody here but it's android and we're competing against iphone, google was kind of in trouble because that was never the argument the other side made and they just kind of like, I felt like almost they ignored the argument the epic was making to be like, no, no. But we were competing against apple and it's like, why would you make that argument when you really can't bring up apple that much here? And two, that's not what the people suing you are .

complaining about yeah so so when I was reporting in this case in the courtroom, what I did not understand until the very end, and I don't know it's always this way, but what I didn't understand til the very end was who is going to decide the market definition and how in a jury trial in the apple case, the judge said, well, you know, epic uh, we don't we don't think it's it's about you iphone versus android.

It's going to be about mobile game transactions because that's what you're actually suing over right v box and whether where people can buy them and how. And that meant that epic had to be competing there with other game stores like nintendo and SONY and microsys. IT already pays thirty percent, so if why shouldn't you pay thirty percent here on apple two? But in this case, the people who got to decide the market definition were the jurors.

They got to ride IT in on the verdict form themselves and they were steered um by the geri's instructions and by a lot of the case towards the idea that I would be epix chosen market definition of android up distribution and in APP transactions in APP mobile payment systems. I mean and so when they were confronted with that and the judge was very skeptical of any other theories like google, us aren't really wanted you to think that this was not only just about apple versus android, but also they had one of their expert economists come under the, under the and suggest IT was going to be about the facilitators of mobile transactions. And the judge was not having the judge was like, isn't what you're saying, doesn't not apply to any transaction on the internet. How does any of that have to do with mobile APP? S, specifically.

how do you get a job as an expert economist? S, you get paid so much for money to just really this chart IT means whatever who's paying me wants IT to me. IT just seems like such a good and lucrative gig, right?

It's like, yeah, we heard like six hundred dollars an hour for this person to be to be delivering their their statements in court. Twelve hundred dollars and out of this person and IT was footy. That is, every time I was this back and forth between appa google, I wonder if we can point out how much their expert is making. Let's just point out that there are bias. Have a double let sort there.

But but just to be clear, the market on its face, because IT exists, is android up distribution IT is there could have been a Better in richer samsung APP store, but google paid some money. There was this idea that what was that epic in value? And a lot of other companies, activision border, activision lazard, would start APP stores in competing and google, yeah.

I wanted to build the steam of a mobile uh was, uh can beat against false but epic, activision blizzard, think of superman what was going to be part of that? They're going to build a steam of mobile, they claimed and and put that on android and then you know you'd buy your games there maybe.

And then google, google respond to this with a single project cog or went huge people with money to make him not do IT. It's a smooth move. That's what you want to do. It's a hug. And you like is that getting to be is that we are all just cash?

Well, they have I maybe the .

jury get that IT wasn't exactly a bribe because it's it's all like this coat marketing arrest. Here we will give some google ad credit, and here here's some revenue sharing over here. And here's you know the the only company that I think google directly paid, IT was like, here's money for doing the thing, his motor, al LG. But yes, I mean, that all comes down to. It's harder for anybody else build the thing because google .

is paying bad is why I think .

the fact that is a jury trial is so fascinating because IT, there's a series of things in here, right? And I think project tag would you just described? And then the spotify deal that google gave spotify, where IT essentially doesn't actually can usually explain that really fast because I I confess I got hung up on like what the numbers are about here. But essentially spotify got a sneaky deal from google where I essentially didn't have to pay anything to be in the place store.

right? That's that's IT. I mean sponsible y OK, Normally an APP developer pays what thirty percent to be on the play store. They pay fifteen percent for their first year, something like that if it's and then it's and then there's a fifteen percent for subscriptions.

There's a bunch of ways that google discounts the rate, but some of developers said we want to have our own payment system. Google first said, no, you're not to have your own payment system and then they said, well, maybe we'll do this experimental trial thing where some companies get their own payment system and will give you a four percent discount. And they called IT something choice spilling.

So if you if you were on the choice spilling, you'd have specialized would theoretically have one system where IT pays its fifteen percent to google for subscriptions or it's thirty percent for one time purchases if that's a thing on spotify anymore. And then on the on on, if you want spotify once use his own payment and system will get a four percent discount on that. So eleven person.

which is nothing and like this, came up a bunch right that like by the time you pay another payment processor, you're going to be back at fifteen percent. So you might google because it's simply like percent.

Google calculated to be paying more than that four percent to get their own payment system. They thought IT wasn't even gonna a choice. You money yeah OK. But what we learned is google a spotify secretly had an arrangement to pay not eleven percent but zero percent when he used its own bill.

which is a deal and that's that's quite a deal.

But but do you listen, offering that to anyone else that were aware of? Google also said, hey netflix, you don't want to pay thirty percent anymore, fifteen percent more. You can pay ten percent, want to pay ten percent netflix said, no, we're going to just buy, pass the store.

We're not going to let you buy thing by eype subscription and netflix s through wander de. You'll go back on the web. You'll buy somewhere else. We know you'll find IT elsewhere.

That's like when one monopoly hit s another monopoly like that flix is like what are you going to do have netflix? yeah. We have thank you money to sign up for netflix. No, you'll just have .

a netflix is prose.

My question that is also what spotify said. What are you going to do just not have spotify? Yeah and google said, okay, you can take nothing.

And at what point? At what point? No, google said they were going to do this to as if we didn't give him a deal.

I didn't realize that point that I was a zero percent deal. I thought I was. No, maybe they get six percent or something.

Zero percent. What do you do at that point? If you're google, do you say, okay, you get the special deal. Do you say, let's treat everybody fairly like we we pretend we're gonna and you make that real and just give everybody the zero percent what?

So google has to make the deal because there's the other there's the out right. Apple just says we're gonna have netflix, which is fascinating like their view and is played out in different ways for apple in different platforms. So on the iphone, like we just want to have netflix x and everybody caves.

But the idea of not having your APP on the iphone completely advanced. Apple tries to pull the stuff with the TV APP on the apple TV. Netflix is like now we're just or no, you going to do not have for the same time and apples, okay.

you don't have to put you can you sign up on netflix through in that purchases? I don't think so. Net c, netflix is held pretty fast on that stuff.

There's but the thing is there's only a handful of companies that can get away with that, right? Like I M actually surprised spotify rises to that level for google or anybody. But like, I think if i'm google, my worry is like, okay, spotify is not in the play store.

Spotify is gonna in the galaxy store. And you know what? Like a hell of a lot of people might do to get spotify on their phones is open the galaxy .

store that mean there's a market, right? They have an out. They can go inside open abstract. We we're going to partner with samsung directly and preload netflix on the phone in a way that apple just like, no, no other choices should exist.

And john, you interviews to be sweating red after the trial, and I thought this was the most important thing that he said. He said, I wish apple wasn't so like clear cut on what you should do. And I think the exact words use were without shell, not have another outstanding.

And it's like, oh, that's the that's why you lost against apple because there wasn't even the possibility for apple to unfairly forelock right like google like oh, there's all these outs they can take IT might result in some fragmentation. You're going to sign noble intentions to google here. By the way, you can say android had a big fragmentation problem.

You don't want all these different ways to get apps, especially the big apps. If you got get a new phone into get spotify and netflix in tiktok, you need to download different APP stores. This is a bad outcome for dooble is a bad outcome .

for the reporter. Remember that we at the verge spent several years writing reviews of android phones, where we were like, I wish this just had peer stock. Android on this, instead of layers .

of bone stock, I believe one .

stock that's right, like I want after my phone. Motorola stiff ed, understand that IT helped them. Cell phones, like I get why google wants to crack down on fragmentation. We've written the editorial eight times here at the verge and these contractor, how IT does that. But these contracts have also helped to make the google play store a profit center for the entire company that makes ridiculous billions and revenue would be a fortune one hundred company all by itself and has to seventy two percent or something like that .

a brother in march. yeah. In either way, one way you could cut down and fragmentation is by being more competitive, right? This is actually .

really Better funds.

What you could make a Better phone, you you could make the pixel really compete, a million ways to do IT. And google go to do IT by taking a bunch of money, firing IT into the market and making sure that no other competitors existed, which, by the way, David, to come back to D O, J versus google is exactly what they do in the search market. And I don't know how that cases is going to go, but the parallels are right there.

The parallels are right there. And I think difference like back to the doul shell, not thing like you can accuse apple of many things, but you cannot accuse apple of being inconsistent, right? Like IT IT, IT has been what IT has been for a very long time. And you can dislike IT, but I think one of the reasons apple keeps winning is because IT just keeps saying the same thing and it's not unclear about what you are signing up for when you buy an iphone and when that happens, IT might be different.

Google, on the other hand, I think the sketchiness of all of these deals, I think, really worked against google, especially in a jury case for like you can you can sort of talk yourself into somebody is being like reasonable things that reasonable businesses do, but like there's no question that they just feel gross. And I think you to a jury, especially over time. And I wonder how I felt, even just sitting in the court room, like my sense, was even just like following your stuff in the story stream shine, like you kind of got more and more of like an ec over the course of the trial, watching all of this go down and you just go from thinking like, oh, google is a company that makes deals to in search to just been like, this just sucks and I think I get this everybody sort of felt that over the course of .

four weeks yeah, I think I maybe I maybe I was a bit of a proxy for for helping our readers live vicariously ly in the position of the jurors. They can see a kind of like that if you were in the court room. Would you feel the same way if you were one of people on the nine jurors making these decisions? I don't want to chAllenge what you said earlier about apple being consistent. IT has been compared to google.

incredibly system, sure.

but apple made sweet heart deals over private email too. I mean that it's had a unique relationship with apple to do a fifteen percent revenue share, which was not enough for netflix. And netflix eventually did go its own way, but they did try and broker that similar kind of arrangement, that there were a number of things like that, that all back .

the but not at this trial because trial for the part exactly.

we had another trial. I was here and to say something.

no, no. I think mine was just an animal because when we know I was, I was like reading all of your coverage shown and friend of the family is a former judge and i'd be like, okay, I have a question for you as a formal judge, if someone has been going out of their way to like hide a lot of documents at stuff to the point that IT keeps coming up in trial. But how would that case probably go for them in in that friend was like, not, well, just as a judge .

don't do that and then .

I like and then there is also much to prove that they were doing these speed hard deals and like other people do IT, but they were doing IT and like, no, you're kind of bond in that respect. They use more polite terminology there. But they were very much like h like, like you I think for anybody who wasn't kinds in that text base and had seen the apple case, but IT has like any kind of grasp, but this stuff is just like, no, you google was was gonna get rect like yeah you keep a pisa judge off that much in to win .

generally yeah like I will personally that was a long night for google's lawyers like a lot of the calling is concerned that's that's what I think was a string. Two things that I want to breaking up one tear point, I think having the jersey you know there's that phrase like you don't want to know how the sausage is made I think a lot of judges I got at some sausage yeah and like this that rose like i'm never reading a hot dog again, right?

I think there's just that element of IT. And then I think in this sonic, I kind of wanted to bring this together and and wrapped the sup a little bit. There's just the element that all business works like this.

And if you just like see how that happens, like maybe that's bad, right? Like google in an advertising company and they do a lot of deals and they're really good at making sharky deals. And that version of google is very different than the version of google.

It's like the new google doodle is in different colors today, right? Like they they maintain that quirky, silly image. And then the back end of google is a sharky advertising company and when you see IT, it's like really bad. And there was one moment that I still think is most fainting uh where tim sweeney and so never tried, met for settlement and they couldn't get there and you talk to tell him about he wouldn't you about IT but but the specifics but IT seemed like google try to make another deal last minute and tim said.

no, that's what that's certainly what tim si was implying. He he certainly implied that so I tried to offer me personally something again and and Frankly hear point about like maybe this is just how the sausage is made.

Business deals happened like this um the judge also thought that epic might take its own deal in the courtroom after the jury had gone home for the day I judge data was like, hey, epic, google, have you tried settling yet? And when ethics attorney y later tourney said, no, we haven't actually really tried that yet and he was like where you asking for an epic went off on some like we want this for us and all developers and the judge came back with, well, spotify got this special deal for itself. I'm sure you could get that special deal for yourselves to go talk about IT. And so the judge was under the implication that this wasn't going to be able like to think for all developers. Maybe epic should go get a special deal for itself.

Yeah IT. Most cases settled as the thing we should know, like seventy eight percent of cases to settle. And judges want the cases to settle, right? The idea is that the american legal system should not resolve conflicts between two right priorities themselves.

You should go working out and that's fine. So I think the church has suit. But like the idea that he asked epic, what do you want an epic responded with some. Potentially self serving but yet very ideal is to read perfectly cared .

that's totally in cared that was the other thing I was wondering shan is ah for what three years now tim swiming has been trying to kind of White night his way through all of these processes like he really wants to be seen and have epic be seen as the good guy here, right and he even said you he's like we would never take a deal of doing this for all developers. We've always done this for developers even when google offered us a deal, we said, no, we want to do IT for all developers. He like dug up an email that they offered the deal that he didn't want like but then he sits on the stand and is like, yes, if this happens, we're probably make billions of dollars .

a story about, little story about that. I thought, I thought that maybe tim si is just that kind of personality where he walks up there and he doesn't necessarily know what he's saying is is truthful, but maybe not the best thing to be seen publicly saying maybe maybe this just kind of came out of him.

but then activate advice.

Maybe they just came out of him that he's laughing about how he could make billions of dollars by paying google.

nothing. But no.

but no. I I ran into him later in the hallway, I think was the next day because by the way, he's been there every single day of the trial save one um a rember in the next day and he and and he walks up to me and he says you've got the number of escalation tion points right and he's referred to this post where he's laugh c about making billion of dollars off of google.

Interesting exception one actually .

that one is one awesome that .

he could avoid paying .

google anything. So one there and then one for the the billions of dollars two explanation points total so is is tim .

sweeney sell the White night for all developers everywhere? Like as at the end of this, if as they appear to be winning this fight, which will get appealed and gotten knows, but like, does he still seem like the champion of all developers? Or did he just like line his pockets and laugh all the way to think?

God, I don't know. I feel like a question in the back of my mind for for for three years now has been, does he actually think he'll ever win any of these lawsuits all the way through appeal? Or is he doing this to grossly embarrass google and apple because all of these documents and contracts are coming out and because he's decided he wants to personally make his company's wealth go towards this this effort.

which by all accounts would not be out of character for tim when i've i've never met the men, but everything people who know him say makes that seem like a perfectly plausible explanation.

Absolutely get like a very funny Timothy. In effect is, you know, we have like lots of ideas, but on the record, not work on time. We only talks on the record.

That's just the thing. He just like won't he won't even entertain the idea a that he just talk in the background. That's him coming to us. That's just another uh, and I know people have like a lots of issues with him as a personality and like what team does and what not seem. Uh, I know people like a lot of issues with epic and what epic does and whether epic is ruthless on the PC and they are buying exclusives from the seat like whatever. But I do think there's an idealism there because it's actually a really interesting thing for a company of of epic ze to be idealistic or to have a CEO who's idealistic like most CEO is like I offered three billions of dollars.

He even tried to be idealist about the billions of dollars. I mean, the very next thing that happened was in that moment, he said, they got to be billions of doll should be awesome if I could avoid paying google anything. A google was very satisfied with that.

And they said, past the witness, epic came back on an epic said, no. So why do you want to know where do you think you get the same kind of deal where you avoid paying anybody else anything? And he said, that's how IT has been on the P.

C. With windows. That's how IT is on the mac. You can put apps on there, not pay somebody to put your apps on there.

So he may believe that this is part of the idealistically thing that he's trying to do. And I think that he has supporters who also believe that. I'm not quite sure which I am on of that.

Yeah, I think that's an open question, especially because what's going to happen next is both of these cases are on appeal and I I don't know this is this is just my interpretation of the apple case. I think the judge ruled the way he did in the apple case to set up in appeal, right?

There's a reason that the judges in california felt very comfortable saying the state law in california allows me to do a prohibition on antistius ing, but the federal antitrust law does. I'm not a i'm not going to run into that fight. I'm going to hire i'm a trial court judge.

I am not going to reinterpret the nature park united states. I going to kick that upstairs because he knows the disappear is coming. So that has always been, I read of that.

I think she's a very savy judge. SHE developed, try record SHE kicks IT up. Irs, this charge had a jury.

The jury doesn't give like it's a different case factory different, the markets are different. Both cases are going to get appeal. Sean, based on your talk with ten, you're covering the trial what you think epic is doing next year?

I think epic is still gonna. Wait, quote and quote a little bit because we have until the second week of january before epix lawyers and google's lawyers come back together and say, hey, judge, what is actually going to happen now that epic is won because we don't know what the judge can or will actually grant epic now that the jury has said, yes, there is you. This is an illegal monopoly.

Cars were concerned. So there's that tim was like, oh, yes, we're keep fighting everywhere. We've got all these other cases going on around the world. They're waiting. I think there were a couple of australia cases that were a kind of on hold because they wanted to see what was going to happen in the us before australia.

way in classic australia .

and and of course, the apple one is being appealed. Both sides, both apple and google are helping. The supreme court will take up the apple decision, which has already been through the P S.

pillet. Level with another year.

So potentially australia.

australia 的 we have a break and waiting around。

With a max platinum, you can really be in the now access to rest the priority, notify yes or pm checkout with fine hotels and resorts, book through amax travel.

We needed this .

and .

dedicated card member entrances out of the left of them. Let's go. You can focus on the present moment that the powerful backing of american express terms apply.

Learn more at america. S. M. Limited support for this podcast comes from anthropic. You already know that A I is transforming the world around us, but lost in all the enthusiasm, and is a really important question.

How can A I actually work for you? And where should you even start claude from anthropic? Maybe the answer. Claude is the next generation, A I assistant built to help you work more efficiently without sacrificing safety or reliability.

Anthropic latest model, clad three point five minute can help you organized thoughts, solve tRicky problems, analyze data and more, whether your brain storm alone or working on a team with thousands of people, all at a Price that works for just about any use case. If you're trying to crack a problem involving and dance reasoning, need to distill the essence of complex images or graphs, or generate heeps of secure code. Blood is a great way to save time and money, plus you can resume knowing that.

And project built claud with an emphasis on safety. The leadership team founded the company with a commitment to an ethical approach that put humanity first to learn more, visit anthropic dot com slash claude. That's anthropic dot com slash claude.

And reback sean, sticking with us for lighting around sean near the guest of honor. Even cooped up for a fortunate in fortnight.

court was in swimming. I one of the .

best headlines we've run in a while, by the way. A fortunate .

in the people got matters.

There are here to gf about journey. They can stay away from epic Victory in this moment. What are you talking about?

Epic win. Epic Victory. For a while after the apple case.

it's the name of the company.

It's not even like anyone who's reading that as an adjective is wrong. Epic win.

It's it's a fact. Can you imagine the other way? Google win, google Victory.

are searching what they win like? I don't know. Yeah.

here during the apple case, we called the judge, epic judge fairly often.

That was first. Yeah right. Shan, you are the guess of honor. You get to your first. What's your .

letting on Operas? Gamer browser now has a panic button for when knew.

I want to talk about the pad.

but I want to talk about how Opera has a browser that has to go to these incredible, ridiculous, gamer centric extremes in order to, differently from chrome, the dominant browser, because nobody else can compete IT. We just be talk king about google competing with things like.

no, this is, but this is the competition is that is, you need a browser that can set limits on CPU and GPU usage so you can keep gaming. You're full frame rates and that has a panic button. So someone walks in while you're gaming.

It's very resource intensive.

And there there is a little known feature in Operating x where if you die, hopefully you press the button that told IT till delete all your history so that they won't save things that you were looking at.

My everything about this is when you press f twelve, which jumps you out of whatever you're doing into a quote, quote, safe tab. One of the options they give you is to go to twitch, which is like, is that .

peck and video I don't .

want to go see me to.

which is the auto mute .

to the tab.

Auto mute IT was going .

to say hard, if you know what.

I don't want to linger on this for one second longer if you a situation where you need a panic but your brothers, I can.

Volume should be off. Head phones. People, head phones.

Freshman, in college, you get this browser. You share. In the dorm, you get this browser.

Can't wait. See the market. boy.

Thank you, Shawn. why? why? Why did you do this? Alright, peers, can you just, just clean, clean some?

Mine is the apple TV APP, which has a new panic button where winter. Taxi.

the h bo max. So apple.

the dark .

recesses of hv, and you hit a button and you go to .

HTC v just like that. It's like, no problems, whatever you are watching. The apple.

some more, David as well. Like ship. The pain of this is how we win.

You can have that for you .

want to kill the page.

The apple T V. APP. Just got a redesign on the apple TV. Apple has had this like, I don't know, fifteen year long obsession with like trying to solve the interface of television.

And I think it's like the most quickly tic thing apple is trying to do. It's either that atba car, like one, two, equally impossible equals, uh, but the new T V APP actually look really nice. They redesigned IT has easier ways to get to some of the channels, get that through apple TV.

IT has some easy ways to get to lake buying, suffer much of a preference. Apple's big idea is to be like the TV guide for your streaming stuff. So IT pulls on the sofa watching all the recommendations, all this up in one place. IT notably does not have netflix, which like immediately destroyed its utility for a large number users.

because this a net one monody hit one.

It's also bad at a lot of other ones too.

IT is apple. Apple, i'd like I think is on the right path here. I just think it's impossible to do what is trying to do.

But I admire apple for just continuing to believe that IT is apple and so IT can eventually bully every other company into being part of this. But the new APP is very nice, I suspect, to get a lot of this stuff on other platforms as well. And like the streaming interface that we have sucks and somebody should fix IT.

And like I don't care if it's apple. I don't care if it's like just watched, like pick a company. I don't I don't give its plex. I really want you to be plex. I would like for IT to be plexi plex.

could please I just to say, Steve jobs did not tell alta sics and other's death bed that he wanted to build a car. He said he cracked the TV and it's a about time.

I correct IT exactly rate, exactly right?

Really the whole company chase is like death, but had comment for too long. Do they meant like his.

he, he cracked A C D. He like through something at a celebration and crack IT. And what think.

you know. Um so body has i'm building a home theater and there is like a whole thing and speaker where everywhere the poor electron just keep looking me, i'm crazy. Um it's great. Um so two two things one in the meantime we have a same sung frame TV which eventually be the bedroom T V ah and I have used ties and now the .

moment of silence s tiny .

is in support club. Please, please help me. But samsung is one very smart thing with size on the TV an the golf and suffered when you're watching youtube TV and you click out of IT and you should go back to any other place where there should be media playing.

IT just starts playing again as though you are just watching T V. It's just very is just very clever. They just restarts your streaming APP and IT just has media playing where you like, go around the menus, whatever. IT makes you feel like a TV and not like the apple TV, which very much feels like a tiny IOS device that is very upset that you are not watching apple TV .

plus or like all the fire tvs now, which are like, oh, you turn on your tvs here, some ads do and watch some s have to mats .

soon as you turn IT on yeah .

uh so there's something there which I think is just really clever and smart in times. But this part of the turn your time and these interfaces suck because they're all trying to get you to do something you don't want to do, or they are trying to keep you away from watching T, V, or they want to show you that is pretty like all so much fast all the time, right?

Like three at supporting TV is a big thing, which means are desperately trying to get you to watch free port TV. That's IT. The second thing, I ve been like this a lot with just apple TV.

And like what will be my primary device and here's where I settle on. I'm going to buy SONY and ninety five l OK. They're not stock anywhere and i'm just gonna watch bravia core SONY for private tory streaming service. IT has the highest bit rates in the entire industry.

A boy in that spider .

man going to look so good .

on that it's going to like four movies.

It's yeah if look IT has, I think.

uh h four, four, four you that they love to be like, look how good spider man looks with our hybrid red.

A red IT read is famously the hardest color to compress in spider man's a great day time to watch the hell out. A spider man .

that in red buses in england, they're like, look at beautiful. You like.

just fine. Yeah, I don't know. Just like all of my stuff, I bought a lot of movies in apple, and I like this thing, does not want me to.

They shut down the movies APP in the TV APP, which I is, but they shut down the movies APP. And that's like, oh, I just want to to see what was out. And I watch a movie and out, like, I have to contend with the morning show like here.

IT is here. Just, do you want the morning pay for this? And I I just want to see the movies are out. Are any of us holding on to this?

I I still get my four k desks. They go my P S, five. That's how I watch my, my good look at movies.

I was gonna that. But bravia cordovez N I .

will say history is increasingly proving you right. Yeah, I was not here last week to be furious at what SONY did, removing all the stuff that people had bought on on their positions ah but that just sucks. And we are rapidly nearing a point where legitimately, if you want to make sure you can watch something, you're going have to buy IT on desk, which is like a dumb place to end up but feel .

like beautiful. I've now got Michael due to ffs american dinger from the eighties on DVD. And like can't find that on .

streaming is watch that .

show like only one way to watch IT OMG if my sisters listening, i'm sorry.

you now know one many.

I how do you mind the wind of change? Mine is a weird week for electricity around the board. But um cat lac announced the catledge of the stick, which is the next the electric S U V IT looks pretty IT looks a little baby escalates.

Cat, I just want point out catledge Prices for evs are completely out of control. Ah, so this one is going to cost ninety thousand dollars. And I remind you that is called the stick with an IQ.

Because what is catala do? There's like the lery, which I assume is now k and the optique and there was like the syntax e and the selleth tiguan, like who that catala keeps being like, you know, it's dope is our queue names that are unpronounceable like not stop IT.

So they start with a lyric which sort .

of pronounce the rik sorry, I don't know.

Uh the lurk is actually kind of reasonably Prices. It's like you can get one in the sixties, which are a catos is in the zone. Um there were a cheaper one that that's coming out um and then they have the esco aid which starts .

at at one hundred and twenty .

and then the elastic is three hundred and forty thousand.

It's escalate with A Q sorry.

you know eis the escalate IQ they could not get in on the escalate. So whatever it's the s eight I Q like just pears that you can have IT one hundred and twenty thousand dollars please.

Uh, I would say that these cars are hot, like i'm i'm very into the styling they have for this.

I have um I don't I don't need a car. I moved back to civilization. I don't even the woozy, I live a very walkable place. And uh by lyck all the time, my uh bai eric and like why I would need, we have a hybrid with twenty five miles of all electa range. I having a gas in three months because that's all we need.

has a pickup truck take up?

I love you so much, and I need to get rid of IT. And I.

Still waiting for the iconic, which is a panda vehicle, to get some N A C S. charging.

Who is? I should buy teacher red until they have .

the charges which .

one day i'm onna buy steep IT does look pretty good, right?

This one's a little sad. I've been two thousand and three are in college and I met a guy and he said, he said, he father, he said, hey, my uncles are producer at like today show or something. He's going to eat three.

Do you want to go? And I went in college to e three, and then I went for the next ten years, not always with with his, his family and and the the host of the today show, whatever great ad. And then I never want again, because he got really bad.

And IT continued to get bad and eat. I just got less and less and less useful. And that is why this year eti is officially dead.

IT was the trade show for video games. Like someone, did you ever go to eat three? I feel like you need to eat three .

like a fun born I you .

saw cool stuff, you know, I I went the year that they moved at all, the sa Monica, and you had to see all the video games in an airplane hanger and others SE. You just said to know a lot of people, and I did not. So I spent a lot of time on the beach. Third three, he was great.

but that's why I should have done really.

really nice.

Shown what's your weird to eat three story. I feel like there I can just see on your face you have a weird three story that you don't tell a weird .

if you still I don't want to tell or do or do you want a good one, the one about the good one I I just .

read for .

my ticket because because I haven't really, really written this and I i'll just do. My voice would be great. I was playing war hawk, the first game for Sonia just announced.

P. S, three motion controller where you could fly heavily armored warplane just by tilting a game pad, believe IT or not, those simple motion controls of revolutionary at the time. This was before the iphone was announced, before twitter existed, and even before the intended, when P.

S. Three were released. To give you some context, yet on the shelf floor, there wasn't much of the line. I only had to wait a few minutes before I got to try this potentially ground breaking title. The longer I played, the more people crowded around me.

Soon I felt like a star was on fire, playing more like, like a champion front by very old audio ts, where people watched ed. The Better I played, flying that deadly, working with precision than he was over. I turned around and handed the controller to SHE give me a lot.

This is a dream you had.

right? This is not father .

of barrio zell that was behind reading the whole time the crowd had been there for him because they were watching the man who developed the wiz motion controller try his competitors product for the first time. You, so I just stood there dum found watching, be able, able to play this game and his face had no expression on IT, not stone call.

He was not as .

impressed with your fantastic .

s yeah I just saw like.

was attention he was in paris.

Help them like those those T, V, or the the t shirt cannons. Should t shirt cannons .

of everything? I never once you, i've never been once. Every instinct I ever had this to stay, I feel like collapsed on IT.

IT was a trade show that three big companies were there. I think in COVID, like microsoft pulled out and sni pulled out. And there was like a question of whether we're come back. And I think those companies always like wait this suck, like we can just do our own events, which is what all the test companies have realized over time. And there there was no chance I was ever .

coming back for years. I heard people say, oh, e three is going to die this next year. We don't need a particularly have to that sa on at a show where got like really time either, like we don't need three.

But what I kept hearing smart people in the room say, was that the executives at the video game companies would always need a stage so that they could go glad hand each other and they needed to have, like some place where the meetings would happen. And now we have jeff Kelly with the summer game fast and all those things. And hl gladly let people exactly this grand hand each other on stage, even if they happened.

nothing to show. Yeah, I mean that that's exactly what happened. Like that two thousand and eight sana amico show was IT gotten too big, right? Like two thousand seven was enormous.

IT was really, really unwieldy. IT was not a great time. And so they said, what? We were gonna drink IT down. And then they reopened IT and they're like, what we need, more people's, we're going to let anybody come. And that just made IT like, not a trade show anymore, but this weird hybrid that didn't make anybody happy. And then finally covered came and like, like coffee, effectively, like they realized all, yeah, everybody realized a wait I don't need this. I don't actually need the glad hand here jeff jeff Kelly and um you know a web broadcast is enough .

for me well, that's just.

The vives .

are different .

for the people down. Are they things that did not stop at the back with a Vincent see as a no, it's IT Shawn. Thank you so much. Been really fun. Can I just say one .

more thing before you before you take us out? Um I I just want to shout a person on threats named mark program o who decided that what he would do is post at me every single day until I mentioned him on a verge test episode which I had no intention of ever doing and then he did IT for two weeks to the point where threads throttle him and wouldn't let him post for a whole day because if they I thought he was harassing me, he's allowed to post again but I just want to say I hear you and thank you and also please no, never do that to me.

Very good, very good. Uh, cycled. This week you go read trones cover to the trial. The twitter package is amazing.

Like twitter, you haven't on the score back about xander, I spent ninety four minutes just look scrolling, reading tweet. And this is the single.

Best way to you that.

And that's a rapper verge cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at eight, six, six verge one one.

The verge cast is a production of the verge in box media podcast network. The show is produced by Andrew marino and lynn James. This episode was mixed, edited by ander Adams, and that's IT. I'll see you next week.

Support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Hey, it's lee. From decoder with new ipad top, we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to you right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisition s this year, especially in A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license can hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the latex presented by strike. You can listen to decoder whatever you get your podcast.