Everything you’ve always wondered about The Vergecast
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Welcome to the verge cast, the flexible podcast of the verge cast i'm my friend David piers and I am currently in I believe it's called mercy tyson airport in oxfam tennecy. We just had a long weekend of family time and di parton related Cheney gans. And at one point I drank blueberry blackberry wine, which I have a lot of thoughts about, but our head at home, and that means it's about to be flat.

Number two, for our ten months, number one actually went pretty well, which I assume means this one is going to be a total disaster. So to anyone who who's listening, who may have done on this flight with us, just know that i'm very sorry. Anyway, we have an awesome show coming up.

We've asked a little last few weeks people to send us questions about the verge and the verge cast. And you've sent in some awesome once. Thanks to everybody who call on the hot line and everybody who's sent his emails.

We got questions about how we run the verge cast, how we think about the stuff that we cover, what gear we use, what nei is like as a boss. Spoiler alert the worst, but will get to that. It's a superfund show.

It's a weird hard thing to spend all this talking about yourself. IT was kind of a fun exercise for the three of us to do, along with the am, an android or producer. So again, thanks to everybody who's sending questions.

This is super fun. All of that is coming up and just a sec. But first I got to get on this plane.

Wish me luck. And maybe even more so, wish luck to everyone sitting within six years of us. This leverage guests, we were read back.

Hey, it's lee from decoder with the detail. We spend a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why do they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving in the summer, the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of ATS who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players and take deciding not to acquire and instead license tech and hire away co founders? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on decoder with the libertad presented by strike.

You can listen to decoder. Whatever you get your podcast support for the show comes from service. Now the A I platform for business transformation. You've heard the big hype around A I. And the truth is A I is only as powerful as the platform is built into service.

Now is the platform that puts A I to work for people across your business, removing friction and frustration for your employees, super charging productivity for developers, providing intelligent tools for your service agents to make customers happier, all built into a single platform you can use right now. And that's why the world works with service now. Visit service now that com splash A I for people to learn more.

Welcome back. All right, I made at home flight went pretty well, thanks to some well timed P, B, N, J, S, andro es. I picked up a cold along the way, but we're here.

I'm in the studio. New line xr here with me. Let's get into IT now. I tell hello, ale grants. Hello, hi.

This is the day we talk about the first test, which we never Normally do. We're not obsessed with ourselves or our own podcast at all. But today people ask questions about show about the verge.

We ve got an alarming number of questions asking if me lies a good boss, which we're going to come around to. I don't know what people think or what to make of that, but we got that question a number of times. So we're going to come to that.

But basically just see, you guys know I have set this up in such a way that we got a bunch questions about the first cast, which we're going to answer, that we are going to take a break. Then we got a bunch questions about the verge, which we're going to answer. And then we ve got a bunch of questions about just like our feelings about the future.

So I think that a good thing to end on. So let's just get ready. You get ready.

Let's see this. Yeah alright. The first one, we have this ones from alex new .

is a good boss.

Hi.

this is alex, who falls church, Virginia. I want to say, I love the cast. I love the coder. I ve learned a lot from you all and laughed along with you all.

And what I want to know is David peers have set a few times, or there have been jokes about how much David peers hates to coder. And I wanted to know is this dave appears actually hate the coder. Is this arriving joke? Did I miss something in an early podcast about this? So I just am curious about the history about how and why David peers hate the coder. Thanks very much. I look forward to hearing your response.

I wanna to answer this question .

to the beauty of this is this will be quick because yes, I absolutely no. I love decoder. And I actually a thing we have talked about a bunch recently is how to sort of bring our podcasts closer together and do more stuff together like me like I am curious from your perspective, I don't hate decoder, but I think one of the funny chAllenges of decoder and the vertex is that you are on both of them.

yeah. And I know for a fact that you spend a lot of time trying to figure out what goes where on our many, many two podcasts. So I think the ongoing question for me is like, how do these two shows differ from each other, especially given the fact that one of the hosts is the same person.

The top line is the decoder is a business show, and the verge cast is a product show, a tech product show that is not actually a good guideline. Everything is the same thing on our side, I and decoder as people, what the products I C, I think that's the most important in interesting, in illuminating way to get to the heart of like what a the executive does. If you you're an executive for any code, you can talk about your products like I know a lot about.

And on the flip side, and I think this is actually more important, it's funny, the David jokes about how secured we have only recently talked about bringing their shows together and I actually recently said today but that I had been waiting for someone else to have that idea um because if I did IT, then i'm just lunging everything together and when David came back and we were expanding the verge chest, I wanted to make sure the vercheres had a lot of space to grow into the next version of itself, especially with David hosting the second epsom. I think that's done. I don't, David tell me, but I was your idea of the other day when you said that to me.

So I think that process has done. And I do think we should we can start talking about the energies on koto more running the clip's more like using that the same way that we use the other journalism on the site to enhance this show because it's it's it's right there. And I don't think there's any particular reason that they need to be so far apart.

Except you tell me, I think the character I play and decoder is a little different than the character I I am on the virtue, which is much more like myself, you know, and coder. It's it's it's a game. It's a game that executive can try to win, which is, are you good at your job?

I do like every time I start a decoder episode and I hear you doing the intro and like od's business like it's like grown up me I is the one who runs decoder and bankers me lie is the one we get on the verge cast it's great. Yeah decoder new.

I wears a tie.

yeah.

I think I just we've hit a pretty natural point in the evolution of both of these shows where there is no reason to keep on card. I think it's very funny to have fake beef and will keep doing that forever.

I do hate to cope.

What is the worst OK? So that's yes.

that's a good I think in general, like as we grow our podcast universe, the big question for me is like how do you do all that in a way that is cool but also like rewards people for listening to everything? Because the thing that I hate, and there are podcast out there that I will not name that do this is like they have shows that are essentially just like compilations of other shows.

And just like the more I engage with you, the less IT feels like it's worth my time. And what I really don't want to do is that where it's like if you've listen decoder and then you listen the verge cast is just like decoder again or vice vera. Yes, I think that's very bad. But if we can find ways to put those things together that like make sense and are good.

i'm for IT also. The point is like grow, right like not in a repetitious capitalist way. It's like find new audiences is and I might be of service to them. And if we're if we just make more verge cast or it's all decoder, we're actually I gott like the things need to be different so they can go attract different groups of people. And that's always just sort of on my mind, like are we just making more of the same thing or we actually making different products for different customers? That's like the most decater thing ever said.

Let's put the tie on as right. Let's get to the excelling. This is an email from James, which are using as kind of a proxy for a bunch of emails. We got all on roughly the same subject, James says over time, there have been a number of comments about nea using an sla for his web cab, but I don't think he's ever given the details that set up and how he run IT.

I love to know more of those details as i'm thinking about how I might set a Better remote set up at home than just me sitting in front of my computer. And the question we've gotten from a bunch of people is just how what where do you use when you sit down to record the podcast? They've asked this question that all three of us, me, I I think you talk about at the most.

And also that we are camera that hangs down in front computer so you've got at the most. So what do you start? Just like you're in the studio right now, but when you're at home, you also just move. So you're rethinking this. What is what is the new tell home studio that right now?

First, I want to point out that David and alex have gone through just an incredible array of set up, just the most overcomplicated, overthinking, software dependent, attacked like a one point out trans like, you know what, i'm going to hinge my career on SONY software. It's a real choice that he attended to me. I still hear that.

sure. We've survived. I was just saying in the background of me doing the dome's thing there, like thinking, so my set up is super dumb.

I am rethinking because we just ve, I ve got some new dedicated space to to to monkey with. But IT is SONY zv ones. I used them both as the webcam for my meeting camera at work and is a camera for the powers set up. So it's a evy one the mounted on arms they're fed into hmi capital cards that's IT and I turned them on and IT is a hardware solution that looks good .

other than being expensive. That sounds like a pretty straightforward set up.

Yeah, what I, anna, get to is a set up at home that looks as much like the look that we have in the studio. So it's not daring to the audience depending on where I this is much more of a big deal for decoder because we're subject to other peoples' dule. So I just want to make IT look like no matter where I am or where we're doing a show, the look is the same.

So that's kind of on my mind as as I build up my new space, but sort of as a pandemic panic purchase, like I need to. What kind that looks good. The Z V one was perfect in this moment.

Another one of the V T, I bet you can find the U. V ones or treat. But there's a bunch of SONY. Many you got to dig through settings, and that is not happy doing this all time.

Sometimes that overheats, you got to put a difference, whatever you can get in to place where just reliably service as a web camp when you turn IT on. And all of that is hardware or not, software. And I cannot convince these two to stop using software.

Yeah, alright, alex, go. What's yours?

Okay, the one i'm currently using till the proof for the last two two weeks so far is the the instance three sixty link. Oh yeah.

This is very popular. Our reviews team.

Yeah, liam sent IT to me because my last camera was the ops a one, and I kept overheating and turning off during the recording, which was the theme for all of my cameras thus far. So we will see how the incident three sixty link IT does, but the the SONY SONY imaging webcam was my ritter, and that was plugged into a SONY a 73。 And IT did not did not do the job very well.

The combination of old camera bad software is really.

is really well. Then I got like, I like Peter was be like to get a cord and I got a cable but unfortunately it's still IT would overheat constantly because the study is seven three is not meant to be on continuously shooting for an hour every type so yeah, now i'm on that and I I rock a seven or an sm seven b share, mike. Just the old standard, it's very fancy. I used to run to an moti m to, but there was a terrible buz periodical that no one could figure out why I started or would stop. And our audio pretty services, stop IT and sit me a scarlet.

They sent you the other entry level yeah interface that no one likes.

Alex has stead factly refused to stop using her stupid hardware and software so many times over the last twelve months. Like alex, stop using the weird and video thing. And she's like, no, I want to use the weird .

and video thing. I should work .

down IT IT should work, by the way, without if if you go out to buy U S B, H my capture card, you think they're all the same. So you will instinctively refuse to pay for a name brand. You will go on amazon.

And like I could spend twenty dollars the name and one or could spend seven on the alphabet supreme. And there's a difference. I just promise you there's a difference. Once you're like find yourself trouble shooting like one USB dongle for three weeks, you're like, I should just spend this at my time is worth infinitely more than twenty three dollars and I am not telling that IT happens to me. I'm just i'm warning you against an outcome .

hasn't happened anyone .

on this show you I feel like it's a miracle we actually successfully make a pog counter. My site is actually very similar to alex, is I think i've been through an even longer series of insane webcam ideas. I also had an OPPO for a long time. And then I get so innocent, the OPPO, I went back to the log detect sea nine twenty that everybody has IT doesn't look very good, but IT works really well. Um I had a law run of using my phone as my web cam with the camo APP, which is wonderful.

The only because we couldn't, tex David, we couldn't send you couldn't use this phone. Well, we were broadcasting.

which is on one hand, like useful, that IT forced me to pay attention to meetings more, which was good. But the other parties, like you're just constantly rigging up and d rigging your webcam, which is very annoying. But IT looks really good, work super well.

So if you just like have a second phone lying around, that's a great idea. But I am also now in the in nineteen sixty, IT works fine. I occasionally accidently turned on the auto tracking and IT just follows me around my room, which creeping me out.

But it's the other than that, no complaints. IT works pretty well. What games are not as .

good as they should be is my overarching take away. You just buy a Sunny Z V one like hundred dollars.

That's the magic. yeah. So do you have you have IT in front .

of your computer screen of two setups? Because I need to have physical distance between podcasting mode and workers. De, so i've got to two thousand fifty nine mac, which is the podcast rig.

And on that one, the ARM comes down over in front of the screen so I can have my notes behind the camera. But then I can just like look down the bar over else in IT because it's a twenty seven and Green. You can I just like make IT all work.

And then on the sort of like this zoom set up, i've got my delightful samsung ve TV off to the side. IT is actually great for this purpose, and the camera is on an ARM and it's right in the middle of that display. Got, i'm kind just like always looking IT looks like i'm working people.

And then I had my locked out there, and I don't know if that is. I don't know that's gna persist. That was like A I made IT during the pandemic, and I convinced myself I was good.

I mean, IT work six of her whenever there's someone directly behind your camera yeah you like I got everybody.

I forget the one person in where, if you are listening to this, the google meet team is listen to this. Make IT. I can block out the middle square so I can put the camera in front .

like the free space is on the.

I just just leave one square black.

Let's make this one we're just going to do because we get this all the time. And a, we should answer IT on the show again. Uh, this is in the email got from George that says it's been a while since I heard why you all don't do chapters figure.

Let's see if you are using the same reason if it's not possible with your current contract or are you all considering moving to another service? Please let me know who ish should be directing my inquiry e to, and I would book them. People are so mad that we don't have chapters in the audio version, this podcast, lem or lead producer. And do you want to come to answer this question?

I'd like you to answer this question. Uh the answer is that uh we use micro uh product on by spotify. I think uh that majority of large publisher use them because IT allows us to manage our advertising inventory effectively. Unfortunately, this does not support chapters is crazy and something we've talked to them about many times, and we are promised that IT is coming soon. Thus far, we have not got that future.

That answer is both true and complete and fills mouth rage. Surprising that spotify is not a terrific place to listen to podcasts. Who would have think yeah, that I just wanted to get that out of the way IT is real.

We would like to do IT chapters are great. They're so good, and I wish we had them. And someday we will and that will be that would be a great day. All right, let's me know. Next we have a question from Dennis.

Dennis question is, ever since the last redesign of the verge cast, I wondering if you could tell us more about the new jingle I really did IT, and maybe you could give some insights into the process of creating this. Also, if you could publish a full version somewhere, I could really see myself listening to IT on its own. Mean, you really let this you on talk pathogenic.

So we are Jerry thinking how everything looked and we'd been using the same theme, which I believe just to policy, just like made on his computer in two percent living. Um and it's great. We love IT that I we should use IT again.

Classic verge estee, one thing about things people like is if you taken away from being back, really excited. So I always thinking about that with our little guys themes, all that stuff, yes, but you ve got a refresh and update and we are launching the second episode. And sometimes the stuff you make just doesn't can't get big enough like we don't have enough stems, we don't have enough like bitzer bobs to extend the other way we needed to.

So we went out to a great matter cylinder who also did the decoder theme and was amazingly fun working with them. And we the only note I will give is we did a bunch round. It's built on the old theme, so you can hear that the same pieces of music.

And I just kept giving notes that I wanted IT to some more like fascination street by the cure. And at some point break masterson's like, oh, I get IT you want to rock song and I keep making hip hop songs and that was that like the having burst open. Then we had the theme, but the real piece of IT, the real important part of IT, was we needed something that was much more reflexible so we can make all the new kinds of shows that we were setting on to make.

So uh, speaking of that particular rebuilt, another question we ve got was rafael and essentially says, I love the new art formats and especially sound design the podcast got it's easy related today. It's come back. But I think you would be interesting to hear from you how that when if you have any other plans coming and your thoughts, feelings in general, which is a very valid question.

But I think generally, it's like where we some point decided, like we're gna reboot verge cash bit and the sort of impedes for that happened before I got here. So like rewind, I know eighteen months, we've been doing the show for eleven years at the time. What was the conversation like that? I was like, that's change what this thing is of IT.

Well, there are two things. One, deter had just left. So there was a big conversation about like how will we do this will mean I just rent about USB c for one hour a week.

Well that, is that an acceptable show? Well, that make us any money? Is that to get you time? The answer is no. I think very obviously no.

And so when I went to see if David wanted to come back to the verge, the thing I said was, coasts the verge? St, like, IT is a big property. People care about IT a lot.

IT needs a lot of focus attention from someone who gets IT. And David d was like, yes. And then five minutes later, he shoot up.

So that was like a big part of IT was like if you're going to change the host, you're onna, change the show. The other part of IT, which is the business part of IT, is that the show is successful. And so our company wants more of IT all the time.

Just an infinite amount of your change. And the dynamic there, detention there is I I don't think everybody like I do not think the audience wants an infinite about t of our chest. So IT has to be really good and we have to like put a boundary and how much we're going to do because now our effort has to be sustained.

So I think that's that's IT like I think right a moment where of the friday show, which is like loose and I think David once called them like the DVD liner notes of the verge. It's like really good. And then we have the ones they show, which is much more focused than a narrative.

And I think that is a really good dynamic between these two episodes. I can see a world in which we do something every day. I just do not .

know how to do IT like literally logistically.

it's it's like the bits in bobs who will go wear. When we used to do IT, we used to ninety seconds on the verge. I remember that required us all to be very Young and mostly unmarried and have new children.

And hammer like also IT required like an infinite amount of booze to pull that off all the time. And a very dedicated people who are like fully and started out. If we want to do that again, I suspect we should.

I think we just have to build some systems. And I don't know that, that should be the verge cast. But that's like i'm saying, all this stuff. I think we've all talked about IT loosely. This is as specific as we have ever been about this idea like where can we go?

Alex, you can came into the verge cast in the middle of that transition, right?

What was that like? IT was kind of exciting and also alarming and terrifying, mainly to like come in with nei and deeper who are really, really, really good at this. And I think, like ninety percent of my early episodes, I don't say anything because i'm just watching them and like studying them in the whole time.

No understands that this is a test. You have to talk. And if you don't talk, the cycle.

I did really go gone. I gotto talk. I got got to say something. So like trying to figure that out, trying to figure out like what are the things I want to talk about on the show and and make kind of part of my character on the show.

That was a lot of work, and I was a lot of like thinking about IT and talking with deader about IT and figuring IT all out. And the David came. I was like, David, hello, guide me.

And IT was great. I screw everything up for you again.

Yeah, yeah. You ruin everything.

I think, I think the way you describe IT, uh, at least for prospective in eyes, pretty much about right, was like, we want more verdant ast, come do IT. And I got a text from deeper on my first day who was like, you know, good luck if you rule in the verge cast oc kill in those words in that orter what he said. And I sincerely ly hope I have not rule in the verge cast. I'm trying very hard to rule in IT every single day, but I don't think .

we've got quick there yet. Success is right on the age of that's the thing show that no one quite understands.

agreed. All right. We have one more about the verge cast and then we're going to take a break. This is from ben, and it's my favorite voice meal we've gotten recently.

Hey, this is that I really question. Just want to let me I know that pop up the volume is currently streaming on max or IT have nice day.

Do you need to know that first .

kind is a very important information. So I think that we should do a watch party of this movie. The problem is that the movie was made a while ago.

There are top left people in IT. There are some ideas in IT that maybe don't hold up. I would love to do this. Lots party, everything. We all have to sign contracts agreeing that we know what we're getting into together before we begin.

But I promise you the scene and pump up the volume where Christian slater is driving her around his girlfriend's cheap broadcasting empire radio station, while the C, C. Chases him in little vans. That is, is clear, a statement of the editorial mission of the verge, as I can give you.

That is what we do here. go. But what you need to know. And if somebody would like to, uh, we make that scene playing the verge cast as the underlying audio and said, that's me IT. Would I would make the first first, alright, are going to take a break and they're going back and we're going to do some verger's questions, right?

Hey, issa, from decoder with new ipad top. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series, diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech not to acquire and instead license tech and hire away cofounder? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on decoder with the light pol presented by strike. You can listen to decoder, whatever you get your podcast.

And here we have travellers in the natural habitat enjoying guaranteed four P M. Checked at find hotels. Resorts book through mx travel, and they do any see what's coming at them.

We're in we got the .

table yeah with reza priority, notify they were loaded when how to get reservations .

open up reservation two.

Say the best for last.

thanks to I makes platon the last day. Vacation brings yet another experience that's a powerful backing of american express terms. Apply arn american for that.

max. I were back.

So the second category of questions we got was about like the verge in general um and you I think in particular a bunch of these are more for you, as you know, the boss but we got want to good once this is seven first one is from john paul hi.

this is john.

All and I have a couple of questions for the media episode guys say is coming up um first question, can you tell me how the verge of structured for someone who likes old chart so much? What's the old chart look like and why did you set IT up that way? Um also which the verge of relationship with back, how is the structure within the larger organization also similar question. You're on a pretty big news room and you make last the decision.

Can you tell how you make decision? What's your decision? Make a framework. These questions might send a little familiar looking forward, hearing your answers by.

I wish you all could see the smile at me I face, right? This going to be the longest vert cats of all type here.

Children have grown up to hoist you on the, that is the phrase. So, oh no, I did IT to myself.

Let's do IT inner. So the first question is, how is the verge structured?

Yeah, I think the verge structure is like a high performance monitoring, like my goal for the virtues, ever understand whatever they want, and it's awesome. So we are structured to enable that, and that's like a very top blind thing. But basically, we have desks, right? We have a refused desk, we have a policy desk, we have a creators desk that letters into like just very top subjects like jay aston, ac uses our tech editor.

We is basically by by subject matter. Expertise is how we are structured. And you can look at our master, you can see that is the next to that, we have audio and video, which is a format.

So then we have like a format specific division, basically. And that's because the tools and the processes in the casino of that work are different than the news room in text. Those are the two sort of access that I think about is our features programme runs on my a year long cats.

And so they are thinking on very different timelines than our news team. And so in the format, we to manage different agents and then we need to make sure that we have subject matter expertise through all of that. And that is like you might surmise, that I enjoy messing with our all chart because those things are intention. So I we are just always kind of like rebalancing how that works and thinking about IT. But those are the two things just Operationally that we have to manage, like how long IT takes to make something and then how much he needs to know to make the thing, and like where that acknowledge had concentrated and then how this time mine should be managed.

Alex, you are the person who spends all other days is like making all of that work.

Ah alex is the actual managing editor .

yeah and i've memorized the orchard. I can list every single percent who they report to at the verge. I don't know if I should have that information in my head, but there IT is does that .

structure make sense to you like as you're sort of Operating that structure day to day, is that does his description feel right to you 耶？

yeah. IT does. I think like having different mediums is really they functioned totally differently, right? Like like how the ideation works, how that time like to get tinct things up works, is totally, totally different. So you kind of need a little bit of separation there. But then you also have to make sure they overlap enough and they communicate enough that like good conversations are happening and you don't have like somebody write a story and somebody doing a podcast of the the exact same thing, doing them in parallel without talking to each other.

And so this is especially hard remote I would say .

yeah so it's like consequence consequence unica. But yeah, I think I think that makes sense and it's helpful to like like I have like the big like the deputy editors, and I go talk to the deputy editors and figure things out, but then I also know, okay, I can drilled out, I can go to down to a duck editor. I can go down to to a staff to that reports up to them and and get those details. And so I kind like kirk's down like that. And IT works really well.

I think my goal is that, again, everyone, just whatever they want. There's a moment about a year into a new verge. Reporters ten year, or like they learn how to play the piano and then like I can just do anything and that's like that's what all that structure is designed for, for that moment to happen because that's the .

best ah yeah and I think like eternal struggle of diverge in every organization is how to like that overall. You're talking about alex. It's like how do we how do we do really great stuff at like the speed of the news business? And also how do we like when do you take the moment, right? Like, okay, i'm going to go disappeared for six months and do this story even though there's constant news all the time.

And me like your immediate instinct. T is always just like news run faster, run faster, run faster in so many ways. And it's really good in some ways, but is also like as the virtues got bigger, figuring out how to do that and do all the other is if we have to do at the different speeds at which they happen is like every newsrooms kind of constant struggle because like things keep happening yeah and you you can be reactive to IT forever and that works and you have to do that. But also there's other stuff we want to do that isn't just run as fast as the new cycle all the time.

Well, i'll give you one very specific example that I think for chest listers will deeply understand news and reviews Operate on different timelines. They just do to review a product. Well, you have to just fall into IT like you have to pay attention to IT for a significant period time and then you can not put out a good product review that takes longer than writing the news.

However, we have competitors that are solved this problem by totally divorcing the news and reviews Operations. The reviewers never right news. The news reporter is never right reviews.

And what you get is a bunch of reporters who have never used the products, you just don't understand the products, and a bunch of reviewers who have her writing reviews as though the news is not happening. We talk about this. We talk about this since the beginning of the verge, like we see these other places to do this.

We don't want ever want to do that. The promise that is, you get bigger and you want to review more things and right, more news. There's a reason that they slip those things up like there's a totally rational, explainable, deeply understandable reason why you would pull those teams apart because they need to run in different directions in different time lines.

We're just insistent about smashing them together so that our reviews read as though they'd take place on the same planet this lives on. And our news reporters understand that you can't just assume that, that companies can make every decision perfectly because they are actually using their products and they're aware of the tradeoffs that are arent to like building any product. And that, I think, is that what we do here? But IT after a while, like, oh, this is the problem that I have signed up to manage forever, but the job is actually just this problem.

Yeah yeah. That's fair. And I think you kind of have to answer this ready. But job paul did ask about how you make decisions, which is the decoder or question. So answer the dmd quoter question me like.

So if you listen to decoder and listen to people, I see this question some people are not prepared for, which is very funny, like just immediately. Funniest thing to me like how do you not know this is and then there's like four or five variations, and I am very much on the amazon. And of that variation, which is you just need to divide up your decision into things that you can quickly undo and have low stakes and things that have high stakes, and you need to make the low stakes decisions as fast as you can, and we alter decisive about them.

That's the one way door and two way to our strategy that's that they talk .

about IT yeah type a and type b or type one and type two and I was, forget which one's watch. There's the two way door. You can just you can just go back and do you again and then there's the like, so this is an exit, sentient, important.

And so I try really hard to make us to everyone sugar. We should just do this all the time. But I think that's really important for a newsroom.

I think the chAllenge is for a newsroom of thing like a headline or an image choice, like those are actually one way doors. You don't get to go back your credibility ties on the line. So you have to build a set of instincts about that stuff that I think is just hard fought.

And you need a lot of scar tissue. But we are very blessed to have a large group of people that has honestly worked together for a very long time, comparatively tiny media org ization. And so I think there's there's sort of a collective intelligence about what the that allows us to make those decisions very quickly.

Do you want to say anything about the verge s relationship with box before we skip on our next person where prior ship?

I know I do.

It's a very honest in our C E.

O has said this, like for us, our audience moves faster. It's a tech audience. IT moves faster than a general news audience or whatever our audience Younger than everybody else.

This is a true thing, I think only power on thing of us. We have been given the opportunity to to run as fast as we directions that we want to run in, and that's honest. great.

And speaking of one of those changes, here's our next is now from Austin A R gas.

This is often from seattle. I got a question, um what have the emotional journey been like? Uh, a yellow transition to word breath. Thanks clear for me.

This is why I love verge. Cast people, right? Like they understand that this is an emotional journey and IT has been one.

How how do you guys feel about IT? This hasn't happened yet, was still very new, but we know it's happening. You'll have been, of course, a lot longer .

than I have. How feeling? I feel. joy.

I, but joy hundred percent. yeah. Like courses. Action, right? It's it's an exceptional. Cm, s, i've used a lot of C, M, S. S.

There was one where you couldn't use that I used, where you couldn't use the same image twice. So you would have to like ever so you have like upload flipped or like slightly cropped is so dumb. That was horrible and in course has been really, really great. But i'm excited for a worlds press like that's where I first started that was like my very first website that I went put on the web and blog on was a word press site. And and i'm excited to go back there to .

be clear destroy because like we haven't yet gone on the first day, we're just looking forward to IT.

You know yeah, it's like the anticipation, right?

It's going to have but like fundamentally, a lot of ideas that we have our bottled next by the old limitations of having to build our own proprietary t are. So there's a lot of things I want to do, for example, uh, clicking more stories about to our home page that should just infinite, all right, I should obviously just infinite role.

We either have to rearchitects our own cm s in its API to enable that or a million people solve this problem to speciality. I'm just excited about that. I'm excited about being able to trade on a ecosystem like a huge software development ecosystem and instead point our development resources and user experiences to is ultimately, the media stops trying to compete with platforms and user experience. I think that take a look around and we should try. So like that's that's where the joy comes from is, oh, why is there that an effort pointed to the database and word processor.

like solve the problems worth solving.

we should build user ces, yeah, yeah. Uh, I agree.

I think everyone I ve ve talked to is like deeply nervous because we're a bunch of earth who are like extremely attuned to the user experience of the products that we use. And like we just got an email that were about to switch to the new slack and everyone to terrify. And so there's an energy press transition to that.

It's like we're all sort of used to the good and bad things about chorus, which is a very good piece of all way that on a for a very long time like the w you know and the w you don't right. But I do think being open to like the entirety of the word precision system is going to be super, super cool. It's all kinds of stuff we can do.

We think we're get .

into that, don't you worry? The last question is just four hours of new ranking, so I don't worry, let's get next one, which comes from sharlet.

Hi, my name is Charlotte. You can talk a lot about other journalists and other publications such as tech crunch and IT seems like he will move from the birds to tech runge eeta all over what's IT like being strings with your competitors? And how do you kind of baLance that work in having to compete with them and also still be friends and collaborating? thanks.

I there are enemy.

We don't collaborate .

yeah the most yeah. So you should answer this one.

I think it's hard to explain, but really easy and practice. Like I, I both love a lot of the people who work at a lot of other publications and absolutely honestly wanna kick their ass to every story all the time. And I understand that there is like cognitive decisions there, but it's just true.

And I think part of IT is also like this. Part of journalism is relatively small, like even the way that we think about tech, everybody covers tech. Now it's all over the place is huge in a way that like in twenty eleven, IT was not right. Like the world of people who cared about tech, the way that we do is much smaller than it's still pretty small. Now like there are a lot of people who cover these companies as big businesses.

There are a lot of people who cover them from like varying different perspectives, but in this space of like people who cover technology as technology is very small and having like a bunch of other nerds around to talk about this stuff with is just always fun. And there's so much to do in this space that I feel like I probably feel less competitive than I should sometimes. But at the same time, like we just see each other all the time in a way that you don't in a lot of businesses, right?

Like yeah, when companies do investor events, they don't have like hundreds of reporters that they may stand in a room for hours drinking coffee before they go see the like quarterly earnings be unveiled. But we do that. We see all these people at apple events.

We see them all at at google events. We see them a bunch of times year. And we're just all talking about the same stuff everyday.

So it's like natural, I think, that you build a real that can trip with these people. And there's only like six publications. So we've all work together .

at one point and killed most of other S I, to be clear, soaked lood. We are smiling and blood drips down our things. Uh, IT wasn't us know is the larger but is true that are early competitive set has been win oed way, way, way down.

And that you I don't love that actually, we talk a lot about needing great competitors because that that's what keeps us sharp. And respecting your great competitor or mean friendly with them does not negate the fact if you feel competitive with them in like big ways. I would say that like the power of the verge over the past decade has been its graduating classes.

Like we've graduated a lot of people out into a lot of publications, most notably bloomberg right now. Like climbing is just like verge midtown when you just go to punch people we know. And so like, that's great.

Like I I like being the place where people get good, can go on and do other things. I like being the place where when our competitive publications look for leadership, that's like the thing. I like graduating.

I like graduating senior people and ideas and leaders. I think that just a good cycle, like the earlier question is like the main thing I think about is our culture. Like that's what the culture develops.

And all obviously, all those people are so very friendly with us, but we call him x pats. Like there still there are still a verge. There's a lot of power in this world. I always joke with David that have a theory of true power and like by the end of this, we all just run .

every publication .

that's the verge. Aspera is extremely cool and increasingly powerful group of people.

It's pretty awesome red by the word or taking over. It's what we do that's like a Kitty's great and SHE that has nothing to do with her very history. I think she's just great. If you had told us in twenty eleven, did that would be the direction I would have never .

believed to you? Yeah right. Next one. This is an email we got from paul that says, uh, I think the casual reader, the verge, might assume the staff are all very heavy teutons, constantly crawling and getting notifications from multiple apps, upgrading the food, phones and macbook frequently.

But listening to the show, IT seems like quite the upset nearly has mentioned he blocks almost on notifications from his phone and that he removed ABS of them, the fees David mention before becoming a father that he wanted to avoid becoming a tech dad. I'm curious to use the rest of the team has that may be counter tuition for people who spent so much time thinking, reading and talking about tech. I guess what i'm asking is who is the biggest let out at the verge, which a is a very good question. And B, I think that the sort of underlying question here is basically like, are you still a bunch of technos who just love tech all the tight?

Can I reject the premise of this question? sure. Is that allowed? I mean, I love you for this thing, and I love you for asking. Appreciate they are asking. I just don't think I agree with the premise that being a heavy user of tech requires you to have your notifications on OK.

Yeah right.

Like I think that this is actually A A thing that gets conflicted. Like quite a bit like I am an intense user of technology. I will I spent my train right to the office today, reading matter, adaptive lighting upgrades, like that's what I map in life.

You know what I am selfish about and what i'm not have a user of is like unfiltered garbage information. And like mostly what people think of is tech products. Like just provide that to you, like A A nonstop flood of garbage.

And like I would say that the power user move is to use the tools in a way that these companies do not want you to use them and turn them all off and then only take what you want. And what I want is for homework, adapt of lighting to be compatible with matter. It's not at this time.

you are simple man of .

simple needs. It's not it's really brutal.

You can disagree with me. I think that's really fair. But I think there's a there's a thing in there, right, which is like are you a lot because you don't have all your notifications turned on? And it's like, no, I just I just shown any people interact to me.

I'm busy, you know like i'll take information of my terms know and I in the news. So my terms are I want a lot of IT. I just want to be focused.

Most of these platforms like you like most is like mass golf with twitter, right? He's like my focus is keeping you on the platform and taking the headlines away. And it's like, I know I don't care about what you think.

Like i'll i'm turning off your notifications. You can have me that to me feels like more of a power you to move. Like maybe i'm wrong, maybe I really disagree me, but I would just that's the turn I would make.

I think you're right. Like getting the our user move is to figure out which bits you actually want to use and use them and incorporate them into your life. And really like satisfied. And I was the majority of the staff does that. Like not everybody has the newest phone or or they do a laptop, but they have figured out a workflow that is deeply profound, late, nerdy and and and made that work.

And I think that's kind of the core, the vergers finding those solutions that work for you and IT doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have every single APP constantly filtering things in or you have to be like like for the longest time, I thought the real was the person who mattered. Rain meter on windows like that was IT for me. And I think that is like there's definitely technology to IT, but it's not like the only part.

And and everybody's a different type of technical know people who are super into phones and have no idea what matter. Like how do you matter what? What the process there is. And I have friends who are super and their home theatre stem to an alarming degree. If they have, like a six year old phone everybodys got a different kind of love of tech.

I do think there there was a long period of tech where they were like a small number of things to be really into uh, and so is like, I mean, you remind whatever forty years and the only thing to be into was like PC rates. You are just like we IT expanded a little and then they were like, phones. Everybody is really the phone.

And now it's like if you, anna, be super weirdly into some line of tech, there are a billion to choose from. And I feel like what what's been fun about the verge is watching everybody sort of pick their thing, right? It's it's like it's like being really in the movies.

You end up sort of picking a thing that you care about more than everybody else and want to talk everybody else about even though they don't care. And like, that's the verge of tech. We all have things that no one else cares about that we do. And that's the prior because of working here.

I like something to do and I really want yeah yeah. Now I will talk your face off about building. I need to build a new home theater for you.

Ah every time me I brings up doby at most that's when I just like turn off my microphone to walk away for a few minutes .

of the at this point obvious I come to the office, just come here by way. But can I just answer a question, right? It's a liza poto was a little one .

hundred percent friend of the verge.

brian merchant, who is ruined for us. We've expected his previous spot. He's got a new book up, by the way. But the history of lot ghz and what they were actually after, and like mind blowing when the book comes, I like having on.

or is great one more before we take a break. This is from will get ready.

This is willing sand ago. A two part question, is me like a cool boss and does he give nice backroads? Alright, thank you. What's twenty .

twenty three, sir? No bosses are given backroom legally here.

We cannot answer that big.

I'm out here are being like, I don't know, I can watch pump up the voting with these people.

I will say we got this question a lot, which makes me think we should, like, actually try to answer .

the background s question.

Background question. Will the only one who wondered about the background? Fs, will whatever that says about you, welcome back to that. But the is nei a good boss question is when we actually got a so alex, I think we should attempt to answer this as honest story and honestly as possible. While i'm here, while me lie, is here we're going.

This is really about to not be a very good boss.

News is an exceptional boss.

I will say the question was not as he a good boss, he a cool boss. Study we did get good boss, but I like cool boss is a question.

No, you you should just drink at home so you're safe.

I've had like meetings about stuff while having a drink is a great, like, who doesn't love a drinking? Working meeting is wonderful. But I think that's the definition .

of a cool boss, literally the definition of the cool mom from mean girls.

That too, that too.

I think the the way I always described me, alias the boss, is that if you want to be as chaotic as I want you to be, he is the best boss in the world. If if nei gets bored, it's a problem. So and this is true in all things aboard me. Life is a dangerous new life. This is why we get worried when you liz's gonna fly with no wifi, like bad things happen when the lie has five hours to sit and think by himself.

The ideas are always great that come out of those.

there's always a google dog is terrifying. But I think to me, one of the things that is like fun about having you as my boss is that you're like forever trying to do bigger, weirder, different things. Like I have worked at places that are very much like here is what we do.

And our job is to keep doing that. And I understand why that's good and valuable. And IT is just like never been like excites me data day to just like keep doing my job every day.

And I feel like every three weeks and year I shows up and is like, what if we just did everything super differently just to see what happens? And that's like, IT is never boring with a aliza boss. It's KO. This is horrible.

but this is like having to write your resume in front of you. I cannot tell you how much I just like this now.

I do you think you are a good boss?

Cool bus.

cool boss finds, which means drunk. I want be betwen the lightly sauce. I've been watching a lot of mad men clips on tiktok.

I've got a picked up a bunch of ideas. I don't know. I try really hard to be at us someday is are much worse than other days.

The only thing that I can measure that against is how confident our most junior people are. But I don't worry about David. Dave is going to tell me to fuck off.

fine. Then we have a lot of people on our staff have been with us for a long time who are very confident, telling me what to do, and that's great. And I love them and chairs them.

What I am always thinking about is the Youngest, most junior person on our staff and how far along they are on the road to playing the piano and being able to do what they want. And if they are unsure or they are unclear or they are, i'm not confident like we the whole organza is fact that the culture is fuck up. I don't know.

That's like the right measure. I don't know if I should measured the page use and set like, but that's that's the thing i've been focused on in the reason I always trying to blew everything up and I really am always going to blow everything up is like the media industry is a disaster. So we should try to try to invent a new one again.

We've been given the license to go try to do IT. And along the way, you've got that, you've got I just want to divert to a place where I would want to work, you know and like there's not a lot of places as evidence by the fact, have been here for a decade, not a lot place I want to work. That's that I know I don't know that for your answer, this is hort I want to die is really answer. I don't like full body printing.

right? We have a couple more quickness that take a break. We're going to do the last couple and then will get back here with that.

This episode is brought to you by google german I with the german I APP. You can talk live and have a real time conversation with an A I assistant. It's great for all kinds of things, like if you want to practice for upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by gi, although the gami APP for I O S and android today must be eighteen plus to use geri live.

Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there was .

that hologram trading card. One of the rare is the last one I needed for my set, shiny.

like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind ebay had IT.

Now everyone's asking, just beautiful. Whatever you love, find IT on ebay. Ebay things people love.

But were back next question, tell us the top worst ten things about me lie is applied. No, let's we're going to hard to that away from that to we have two, I think, sort of bigger picture questions about how we think about tech and the verge in the future. So we're going going to do those before we get out here.

Here's the first one from santiago. This is santiago. I want to ask, how has your role and editorial stand shifted from the start of the verge to today as we wear more conscious of the possibility for technology misuse? And how have you seen your coverage on a evolve as the product is more broadly used and becomes more integrated in everyday technology? Love the show. Thanks for everything.

I included this question because this is literally a conversation we have been having internally about how we think about tech. Now, guy, I looked to twenty eleven and and I I think you used to always say, as one of the things we do with the vergers, we pedal hope that like the world can get Better and technology is part of that, and that one of the things we do is try to point people at what a Better world looks like. Does that hold two, twelve years later with everything we know about what technology is and does and all the bad things we've seen in the last two thousand years?

Yeah, I think so. I think we saw hope fundamentally. We report on other people working really hard right at me, that the phone gets well, hopeful, the phone gets all out if I get long of you, the phone gets dinner, the screens get bigger, they get brighter, the networks get faster.

To what effect? Who knows? But that dynamic, right that i'm describing as a lot of people have to work really hard to put capabilities into the world and to give you new tools.

I think that is good. Like the most important thing is that is a positive feedback look to like we invent things and we try hard. And like there there's an earnestness to that, that I never wanna side of.

The other side of IT is what we made, five hundred networks. We spend a lot of money. And why do we do anything good with IT? Is anything good happened? Is a robot surgery.

And I think that is the side that the rest of the media has focused on. And obviously, we've we've layer a lot of that in york coverage to, especially with social networks and things like it's weird that, that this is easier and faster to lie than ever before. Should we built those capabilities? We've stopped ourselves, maybe in those are societal questions.

So I think twenty eleven, that was our theses right? Like over the world because of phones and particular, the world is on the cusp of a massive change. And we should have a publication that like technology is culture.

Culture, that thing all that stuff we said over a decade is now everything everyone gets IT. And so our differentiation, I think, is not taking IT for granted. The other line I was used as it's fun to be smart. You know like we spend a lot of time just like thinking about stuff like our show, our audience. That's why it's big because there's actually way more people out there that want to spend their time deeply thinking about these things that not you know, I would say that when I think about our differentiation in the media landscape, a lot of people take you for granted. They just take IT for granted that these are problems are these are trade off so you can come to other solutions or even that IT is fun to be smart about them, that being like two nerdy or two weeds.

And like now actually, you can walk up to any person on earth and ask them about their phone, and they will tell you something deeply, nearly like IT is an absolute 的 unifier that this technology exists and people have emotional relationships with IT um and you can take this seriously。 So I I think it's you know many things have happened since we launched the verge. Many things continue happen.

A I is when I say it's easier to lie than never before pools to a have thoughts. The flip side of IT is like, well, a lot of people have to work really, really hard to make these things, and we should not take IT for granted. And that, like just in enough itself, is like to me, is still a hopeful idea.

Alex, one of the year and I talk about, I feel like half slack dms are recovering. This cool thing that exist. And like A I is actually the perfect example of right now. It's this cool new thing that exists that, you know, open the eye, just launched dolly three, and look at all the wild, if you can do.

How many paragraph s do I have to write about all the awful things that can be used here? Does every story that I need to mostly be about the bad possibilities and the side effects and the and the things we haven't had when we cover meta, do we need to relitigate all the bad things that meta has done over the years? Like how do you talk about this stuff in a way that is both like hopeful and realistic and honest and self? We are like, do you feel like you and we have cracked that yet? I think that kind of .

hinges on the fact that one we care about this stuff. And we're really passionate about IT, and our readers are passionate about IT, a writers are passionate about IT, and we're covering IT every day. Like if you're only covering A I once a year, then you really do have to be litigate things because your audience may not be familiar with IT, but our audience is typically pretty familiar with what's going on.

So we don't need to be like I remember that type like rehashed everything that met us, one that's awful. We all know they've done a lot of awful stuff. We can spend a line being like, hey, by the way, met ted at something golf once six years ago and continue on right like like we could.

We don't have to reeducate people. And I think that something that a lot of publications like can kind of fall into the trap of of wanting to relitigate things, wanting to really focus on, on the crummy stuff and the rummy stuff is crome. And we need to talk about IT, we need to write about IT.

But there's also really useful things in beneficial things. And I think what we see, what A I is kind of similar to what we saw with deep fakes, where there was a lot of panic around deep fakes because of, my god, is going to change everything and yeah does change things. And IT does demand Better literacy from from audiences.

But at the same time, IT does a lot of really cool stuff and enables a lot of really fun stuff. And as long as you find that baLance and remember that and and IT doesn't go into like super William land, then then it's fine. A I is a little tRicky because IT is so easy to lie with.

A I but IT does a lot of really cool stuff like one day. I'm not gonna to schedule all my meetings. I will do IT for me and I cannot .

make me I will never have to use software again .

because of a software is the worst. That's the new verge. No software coverage?

no. I think it's and I think to the point about know, it's going to be smart as like being alive right now means holding a lot of competing ideas in your head about what's good and what's bad and what's safe and what's problematic and how much you should care about your privacy versus all the cool stuff that exists like the goal, I think, is just to engage all of that is honestly as we can rather than like try to pretend it's all one or all the other or just ignored on talk about stock Prices, right? There's that one really easy shortcut to a lot of this is when the stock goes up, it's good on when the stock goes down, it's bad.

And that's a really handy way to cover tech that I think just like ignores what it's like to be a person in the world. And I think just coming at everything accolon ging, that it's all kind of a mess is a thing the verge is really good at and makes IT like it's it's why it's fun to be engaged with this stuff every day because IT doesn't get less messy. It's just gets messy in new ways, which is really fun.

Yeah then I tell you my favorite month. Sorry, not that I experience I A favor ones that I experience, but just in the legend of all monster g there's believe it's a wired profile and just like moving through es and he just written some like horrible review, like a serious example dio or something and the CEO the company stops and that you trash my stock Price like on the floor yes and on the floor yes. What mostly looks at dead the I as I don't get a fuck about .

your stock .

Price yeah I just like held .

this in my heart the entry right? We have one more and we're going to get out here. The last question we have comes from Kevin.

Hi, this is Kevin agrees from beautiful windows of minnesota. And i've been an active reader of the verge since around november first two thousand eleven. He is more for a long time doing great things. I guess my real big question for everybody on the verge cast when you're talking about hot takes and hot questions is, what is your neck well.

here to announce this is really.

really about activity pub.

Is this what range about activity pub for four hours OK. My plan for our site is that federate our content and to be more natively integrated with whatever new class of social network that exist. I have no idea how many this is not work.

You can see the loose beginnings of how that might work on our site. Um you can see the people built hats to make IT happen. I love IT the verge chat space is great that I too much overloads server. We can see how we're building towards.

And then you can see things like what we've got a one column, stories dream, what if we had two of them? What if we had three of what if you could follow our writers in the call or topics if what if you just follow gadgets and get a stream of gadget on our page? I don't think that that's going to work.

I just think we have to build cool user experiences for people in media and not just be a supplier of cheap and differentiated content to england. Musk, maybe this is not like the most insane business proposition in the world, by the way, if you like, go anywhere else. What should you do? Should you have a relationship with your customer? Or should you give your shit away for free to the region, man on earth, like anyone else in the world? Who knows the answer? A question media executives like, I don't know.

I think we should give our shit away for free and I just don't know why that is. Like our industries is like no has no self a team. So I would like the verge to to lead the way in having some confident ideas, unlike how do we build soft? That's cool.

How do we compete in like software in in addition to having really, really good work that is like has jamal's the ethics and all the other stuff? Yes, that's kind of my big idea. I again, no idea how this work.

We have to build a lot of IT. We have to invent a bunch of IT. But again, we've been given the license to do IT, which I think is a pretty incredible position to be in.

Yeah, I think we've entered this place where like the media industry has spent the last fifteen years basically playing everybody else's the game in the the world is like you you you play some of these game, you get free traffic. You likely monitise ed, that traffic seems sort of like Victory for a minute, and we are coming out of that game in a pretty real way like just the fact that twitter is now not showing headlines on linked cards like, you know, I must does not want you to leave his platform and so he's going to make IT very hard for you to leave platform.

But anyone is just like a very convenient villain. This is what what happening.

Everybody, right, like google, is less interested in sending yourself. Everybody is doing that now. And so this idea, like, I think the thing you're going to see from a lot of media organizations is like, how do we build a place you want to be, which I think is is correct. And then the the thing that we're also gonna try to figure how to do on top of that is how to like, be out in the rest of the internet in a way that makes sense, isn't just like a devil's bargain of facebook, which I think I have no idea what that looks like, but I think it's be very cool.

I will connect that know there's earlier question about like how things are change in the beginning and the begin. Where is like pipsqueaks like I was in this last apple event? I think I said this in the show earlier like I was at this last apple event.

And like the cambridge yan explosion of like tiktok rigs, just like blue, my mind, like people inventing things to make videos s fast that we would have just never seen before. And the way that some of those folks were talking to me, like, I love that when people call me all, like, you see media like said again, you know, like, I love IT. Uh, thank you.

You've call on me the winner. I'll take IT all day on. But the thing that has change, like our role in the ecosystem has changed. And so we should build a product that is reflective a vat role ecosystem, a lot of which is like a linking to other people, right? Like our home pages is very much designed to link to other great work to embedded great work on other platform.

I want to put some focus on that as much as like we're going to mean we are always to make beautiful of use in investigations and right news. Fat like but I think that piece of IT were were utility and we're a trusted part of an ecosystem. Most publishers just got ten away. Think your times when you even like link to other, like there like another someone else like this, how dare you and my, where is not going to be that want to be the thing that connects all kinds of smart people together?

Alex and I thought blast vote was on your mind for the next twelve years.

No, I think I think you guys are exactly right. Like like media is in a weird kind of crisis point and finding a way to establish yourself and not have to like constantly go. And in payoneer, all of these big social video platform is really, really important.

And it's the way you survive and its way you stay independent and it's the way you um actually cover what you want to cover and not what some algorithm you don't have any control over thinks needs to be covered. And I think that's what we need to do at the verge and that's what we do at the verge. So i'm really excited about IT. It's a great like i'm excited for the next couple years, even though i'm sure it's going to be kind of a health cape for .

other people to obvious. Now on on your brain machine and plant that is screwed into your head, we ll be there. I don't know what it's gonna be.

Be there, right? We got to go. Thank you both for doing this. Thanks to everyone who sending questions. This is very fun.

Yes, really. I mean, there is one part of .

the rest coming up next week. Everybody's rings on the line as the forecast, right? That's IT for the forecast today.

If you have thoughts, questions, feelings, we are ideas about microphones we should have, or Frankly, anything else you want to know, you can always email us, add verge cast at the virdow com, or keep calling the hot line eight, six, six verge one one. Send us your questions. We're going to keep answering vergie questions over time.

I am sure this will not be the last time. So keep this show is produced by anger, marino and liam James. Verge cast is a verge production in part of the box media podcast network. Me, I alex will be back on friday to talk about matter one point two weird internet standards about how to post on the internet and much more we'll see them rock roll.

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