Inside the Google algorithm
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Welcome the request, the future podcast of massive space ultimate die. Now we're immediately starting there. Hi, friend. Trances.

here you just discovered .

r the great to browser.

Yeah, nobody told me about IT. David definitely has repeatedly.

Every issue of installation is, have you used this browser?

Turns out he's right.

Who knew David pears is also here, although, is he?

I just use the ultimate base and I just want to leave. I just immediately know where we're going.

Were driving a car there so fast. Here's all inside. It's a huge week of news, uh, a bunch of docks about how google search works leaked and then they were confirmed to real.

I don't oversell this is on the order of how the facebook algorithm works like this is true insight into the whole search album so that and fall out across the web from that, a google search continues to be bananas. There is a bunch of OpenAI news. I know people wanted to talk about fox media deal with open the eye, which I will. Whatever extent that is interesting, we'll got a lightning ground on sponsored sam. But there's one piece of news that I think dominates the week.

You definitely think that dominates the week.

And that is the verge has received a review unit of the SONY field, seven ul t speaker. No, this is a medium sized one.

If you're not watching this on youtube, just imagine me. I pulled a grenade launcher .

out from underneath and so much it's three, ninety nine. And as many of you know, I think the net has errors and I think technology has errors. We've talked a lot about the end of the google search era on the internet.

What that might mean, perhaps worth dawn of the AI era, certainly we were in the mobile era for quite a long time. The social era. This is the ul. t. eric. And what I mean by that is if the eighties were dominated by mega base and the nineties were dominated by mega base, I would say that the twenty, the two thousand and twenty tens kind of a stumble through zone's extra base era.

Yeah.

that was a pleasant, I didn't hit. We're now in what SONY has called of the ul t. era.

I what the button.

what the button says on IT right here. Ut.

there's a ul t button.

Wait that changes and i'm just going to turn the sky on here. It's so big there.

in fact. And a hand see a through the speaker.

I'm told that if I hold this play button down for five seconds, we get royalty free demo music. You hear that youtube royalty free and you guys .

can't see the the the lights, but they're there.

There SHE is now I .

don't .

know if you can see the amount of the speaker is currently look up, but it's it's both drivers. And then on the front, the ul t button is rainbow blinking. And when you push that, you get massive soil. Tim vide, this is most important product and technology.

Do you think if you press the U. L, T. Button right now, don't pocket if let's find out away.

away for the drop to come back. Is this english?

English.

there's another song. Oh yeah, i've got so much quieter when I push the ul t but. Is IT just makes little drum hit when you push the can you hear that it's like a pink. I don't know me. It's like i'm trying to sell this and it's not going great.

The handles are great. We're turning into qvc or tiktok. This is on our tiktok store right now for four hundred dollars.

IT won't burn down your house that we know of.

yeah.

Anyway, look on saying is we went from the megabase era to the extra base era, which again, I think was a failure.

I don't I mean, the ul era is is not bumping so far.

I mean.

the first song is good. Extra is not more than mega. And so what happened is in the mega era, everybody went death and so couldn't hear the extra eras. So but now we have ultimate with all the deaf people in their forties, we can hear now. So it's back and .

look at as powerful sound of an x baLance speaker unit and thirty hours battery. If you just the most the .

windows rattle though, is that really I just think it's funny when you .

try to make a spectrum for a product that is insane and you're just we are gb lights next to the point. Look at the yot. I've never win more excited about a product in my entire life. That's a very chest.

Everybody people have been wondering about when we're going to give a ten out of ten. And I think that might be be time.

By the way, this is the medium sized one. This is the seven. There is also a ten. I cannot wait for that one to arrive. They also sent us two, seven.

Christmas is one in this house, taking up most of his home, right? There's a lot of news this week. A lot of IT is about A I. And what IT is doing to the internet, if you been listening to our show, reading the verge and listening coder, whatever, you know that we've had a theis for a while now stretching back into the middle last year that the internet was about to get flipped over, not just by AI, but by search in general, by social platforms falling apart.

And if you're aware, they change them from twitter to x like someone is happening yeah and one thing that we really wanted to do was pay a lot of attention to what things were like now. So we could properly describe how they changed, which went. We did a lot of as a coverage last year, covered the culture of seo, the community S O.

Why the web bloods like an seo disaster, how google fights back against co. mi. Sato, did a lot of that reporting for us. I think i've radical zed her like you make someone care about S O eight months to come out, a different person on the other side. But he isn't a great job of that reporting.

We a great feature from a managed ka Lewis, the su community, still mad about that featured an allegation or party will link us up. You read IT. The point and to make is we felt like he was changing. I think that hunch .

was correct, right? yes. yeah. I mean, google kind of in cogged. So google sucks.

Now there's other search products, googles ruling at overviews. And then over the long weekend, a bunch of S O, people discovered that the API documentation for google search had been inadvertently made public and get hub for quite some time. And there were a couple blog post, one that was just like here, how I found IT here you showed IT to me that one was really interesting.

And then there there's no one is more of a deep dive into, here's what IT says. And then there is a little bit of acting forth about, is this real, like can not be trust for or sing? Because some of what the documentation revealed is that google has not been telling the whole truth about how search works for a very, very long time.

And so some of the headlines in these post rock is google lying to us. And something, the copy in this first that oogly has been in to google was initially just totally dead silence, which is weird, like usually we at least get a no comment but near sentiment unch details. We send some text, hey, is there anything do you want to deny that this is real? Dead silence.

Then yesterday, wednesday, google confirmed the leaks. They say this is real and they said, and they said we would, cautioning into making inaccurate assumptions about search based on out of context ata and complete information basically said, yeah, this is a real bit, is not super real. It's a lot, David, you have in covering search and how that works and thinking about IT, you use the most brothers and surge tensions of anyone. I know there's some real explosive information here, but it's still not clear how much we should take seriously how much is lying is just a lot of angry people are simply like, oh.

this is what i've been angry about yeah it's a weird moment because google searches has always been a black box. Um google has very deliberately not revealed how google search works and what IT cares about in part because it's so complicated that is actually a hard border line.

Impossible thing to sit down and explain to somebody why something is where IT is in search results like I don't know any individual person that google knows the answer to that question. It's just not how the system works anymore um but also because the more google revealed about how search works, the more tools that is giving people with which to game google search, which has been the cat and moscato theyve been playing forever. And so what has been happening is people have been asking google, what is going on? What systems and rankings does google care about? What can I do to make my suffer? Hire in google search.

And google has given a lot of answers that these twenty five hundred pages of internal A P. I documents, they are essentially not true like that. There are a series of things that google has in these documents that IT has explicitly set out loud that does not consider answer drinking.

Are those two statements completely immutable, exclusive? No, which is why this gets so weird, right? Like there are, I forget the exact number, but IT was right around fourteen thousand individual things referenced in these pages, which is basically like fourteen thousand different signals, uh, how those are ranked, which matter more, which matter less, whether they're all even counted, how all this information is, what some of the terms actually mean.

Very hard to know, because a lot of them are terms you never seen before. The google has been saying for years didn't exist. But what what seems to be true is you don't have A A heading in your A P.

I. For a thing that you don't care about. And so for things that google has for years said that IT doesn't care about, there is now evidence that IT is at least a piece of data that google collects.

And one of the wild things is that people who do seo spend a lot of time testing theories, and they've been testing theory. And people like the the guy who broke the story, rand fishkin, have gotten crap from people in the community for running tests and saying things like, oh, that seems like google start really cares about clink rates. And people like google saying, no, no, we don't care about click rates year in idiot and this overwhelmingly makes IT look like google cares an awful lot about click rates.

And so now we're in this place where I think a big part of what we've been seeing from the S. O community is people who are like, oh, not only has google not been telling us the truth, they're been lying to our faces in making IT like gilding us into believing the wrong thing about how google search works. And it's a weird like exist al crisis when that happens.

And the thing i'll just like try to chain together is we started to paying attention to this story last year because we wanted to know what this ecosystem was like like we wanted a picture of maybe make the last days of disco, right? Like here's what I was like before the comment hits and I thought the comment would be AI or the end of social network or google keeping more traffic inside a featured whatever the comment is in the kind of feeling the comment is actually just knowing the google wasn't telling the whole truth, right? Like the headaches in these work is like legitimately there's a trade publication called search engine, and we've been washing a lot of the coverage of this on that site. It's one of the bigger sco trade publications exist and the headings like how does sco move on from here? One of the subheadings in their piece where they run the google statement was, did google lie to us that just a subset, that just a straight h two on their story?

Because by the way, people do in order to be retired in google, you put questions. People might google in an h to unserious, right? And that is like push this all the way down.

And it's like what's inside this document is how the internet works, right? People have built the internet to try to figure out how to game the stuff that is inside these twenty five hundred pages. And like you, you can reverse engineer the internet out of google A P.

I, which I think is why this feels so huge. Like you are paying about the facebook algorithm that you've been saying all weekly. This is on the order of leak in the facebook algorithm like IT is. And in the way that understanding the facebook algorithm would essentially help us understand a decade of our online relationships like this is the internet in twenty five hundred pages of like weird, inscrutable, able ap icons.

And I think that's hard for people who aren't in the esc o business or our business, which is kind of the seo business to fully wrap that.

We make websites. If you make a website, you care about this a little bit. Yeah yeah.

Yet we have to right? Like it's required. I edit buying guides. I have to care a lot about seo and people who don't care about us o they like I go and tell my friends like this huge dock, like cash of documents drop, this is huge and they're like, why are you? What is seo?

Yon must has i'm going to open source the twitter already ther and this is front page news, the API calls or fields basically of what data google collects to run in ranking algorithm leagues. And it's like cosmic freaking out yeah and it's kind of nowhere.

And I and like today at this point, we don't know how these things are ranked that's but we do know the google has said four years, IT does not collect on the state or care about on the data and IT definitely does. What are you going to do with that? H rand fish? Can the same person you mentioned, David has got spent a long time saying, seems like this thing called dwell time is important.

So you click through a goal result, you land on a website. You're there for how over long. You come back to google, you go to the next one. That time you spend on the website that seems important and google is basically said, no, dip the track in that too. Yeah the one that I think is the most explosive, which we don't really know how to understand, is click data from chrome.

And is there somewhere? right? So one thing we know that google does, which a little shaky, is when you search for a website, I think the example that came out in one of the antitrust trials was vog or cosme port is some magazine like he was one of them.

yeah.

And you get the website, and right below IT in the search result, you get their heading, like beauty, fashion coverage magala a those headings are generated by what people click on in those websites. And creme and google has for ever said that does not use data from crime to impact search. And you look at these axon, oh, it's in there.

There's data from chrome like it's potential that google is actually using that research. And they have sworn up and down to every regulator, to every su professionals, to everyone. These things are not the same.

What are you onna do with that? It's such a funny example to because like, of course, google does that like this to me. So much of this league is things that you would obviously assume google is doing, except that google has been denying doing IT for years.

That IT turns out. In fact, google is doing like i'm in the business of knowing which links are good and I also run a browser in which billions of people click links every day. Like at some point, you'd be insane not to let one affect the other.

You have maybe the best possible data stream, which is the links that people go to and how long they spend there, which is literally, that is all you could ever want to know in sir drinkings. And so the idea that they are spread apart and not, you know, in any way correlated out of the goodness of google's heart, I think has always been sort of silly to people. And so to some extent it's like IT just confirms what your instincts tell you in a lot of this league.

Yeah, I keep going back to the night early. You said this was kind of a comment hitting, and I feel like this is definite a comment for the S. O.

community. But for the rest of us, we've kind of been in more like high waters rising IT as apocalypse is going right. The google, the google experience for ninety percent of people has just been like, okay, the sea levels are rising now. And and IT feels like this was maybe that big push in the water. Oh, now it's covering manhattan's doing IT.

yeah, yeah. I mean, IT IT does feel like the dam is breaking. One of the things that we were talking about when we did our decode episode recently about google zero was the stuff leagues because people are mad.

And so if you were an S, U. Operator and you uncovered a bunch of secret data that google was collecting, you would not tell me a right. You would definitely keep that to yourself.

But inside, what's happening is people are mad and they're like, look at all these lies or look at what we perceived to be lies here. And there's just a lot of the the ideas that people i've had about how google search works. One of them is domain authority.

So a very funny thing that happens is every year I publish best prester twenty twenty four by a brother is a printer and he goes the top the rankings IT goes the top of the search rankings one um because I have the right answer which is my brother as A R and never think about IT too because i'm the best person to write about printers uh in world history no one else has written a Better printer place to me i'm sorry that's just the truth. certain. Ly, these two can try. I don't mean that because there's not Better writers to me. I mean, those writers are not wasting .

there to be a Better great. You are the perfect, the perfect middle of good. Your job is also interested in printer .

posts that is like, this stuff is Better at this than me.

I just down. Yeah, that's fine. Then .

everyone tweets IT and shares IT, and people write about IT because it's a joke and it's funny and it's at the top of this. And then the S. O.

Community, such things like the virtues just take invincible that they're domain authority yeah yes yeah what we're doing and then google like we don't have domain through that some thing we keep track of and then you look at the thing and they tracks and they called side authority and it's dynamic author yeah it's just that dynamic which is like, okay, like we understand that you don't want people to game search. We have been very critical of S O farms that came search again. Decoder this week is just about people came in search and putting small businesses out of business. But if you're not honest right then, and if you deny the things are happening, then the backlash is really strong. The example I keep thinking about is what if every instagram influencer woke up today and was like instagram has been lying to us for a decade, but how that go for that platform at a misery.

just like a mediately guys.

he's not making IT Better .

here with the video and why the lives were worth, actually. Now I got to go to the net .

galla exact kind of like my glasses are getting more expensive .

every day and they look fabulous.

They're very good. What would happen if every youtube I was joked that every youtube r gets their wings and they make the video about time had a youtube won't happen if every youtube r was like living line to us for a decade. That's that's where google is landing with the web with these lakes. Where do you have a lot more coverage of them now that we know we're real where and pull them apart when touch some max words? I have people from other companies in my inbox saying things like if some of this is real, then cho is essentially spider.

That mean, that sounds like last week we were having this whole conversation about copilot and how everybody was very upset because they felt like copilot plus PC is all the stuff that microsoft is doing was horrible. And I IT was essentially key loggers and it's like, okay, well, now we basically have .

confirmation that chrome is a key logger. There's like a field .

yeah it's like if you .

were to make a spread shit and one of the things and spread shit would be like my friend's bank account numbers and you like but I never filled IT in. I just kind of wanted in case someone told me their bank account number.

Sure, I do that all the time.

Yeah people my friends have gone out with updates like I I just keep maybe maybe that's a page.

Er I want to have in my note again, I would encourage anyone who is alarmed by this to go to your chrome history think about all the cookies that you I mean like of course it's a key like what the hell is a browser, if not a key log that literally its job is to know all the links that you've been to and all the things that you have typed inside of them and I think to some thing again, I just keep coming back to this idea that like google is going to say, okay, we run a search engine wouldn't be cool if we knew all the links people would go to when they weren't on google and then somebody and chrome like, what if you built an awesome zer and they just IT would be the most lake have you met google in history? And to be fair, if any company could accidentally keep those two things apart, IT is google. But like just strategically IT IT would be absurd for google to do this and not actually connect those dots together again.

And I think from some of the antitrust trial's, David, you covered some of them. Google has been pretty open, like our engineers wanted a bunch of click .

data to make the search. And we need billion dollars.

right? Okay, well, bunch people run windows. We don't have to pay microsoft. We just to make a browser and put IT on there. And now we run the biggest browser er in the world and we get all the clicks like that is exactly what you would do.

Yeah I think I think the thing is that what's different here is that everybody should understand this, right? Like I understand that google is reading my emails because I signed up for gmail. And like two thousand four, two thousand five, that was part of the deal.

You, I raised my emails to deliver me ads. So I understand that most people don't, and a lot of times they have these moments. Wouldn't stuff like this happens when there was like, oh, shit, they have so much more information about me than I ever thought they did. And it's just this moment for a lot of people where it's just like, oh, I can I never intellectualized. I never like fully comprehended how much these companies have about .

me yeah and on the foot side, you have people who are trying to build businesses saying, hey, that looks like you are doing this and google .

think no yeah and just out lying to them in a way it's like, you know, I don't think google has any interest in rebuilding trust. Actually.

one of the funny thing about this is that is such an integer nicer relationship. I often make the comparison to platforms like I think the web is essentially google's platform. And certainly lot of these businesses are building their businesses on the platform known as google search, not the web. There are search dependent businesses in google does not have like warm and fuzzy at form creator relationships. What these folks like Adams area is like, i'm going to sit down the craters like look .

at all these great caters.

Mohan runs youtube loves loves a creator breakfast. Yeah right. Like every platform that depends on creators has that relationship that extracts more value than IT pays them.

That's life and platform world. They try to modify the creators all the time. Google does not try to modify website on ours.

No, because I mean, at this point that the internet is reliant on google. And what google says is, hey, run our ads on your site. You can have some money.

That seems good. But what I think is interesting about this is like the the youtube, the of social platform examples is really interesting. Because what those companies bian large have done is be inscrutable ble on purpose, right?

Like you you look at autometer aric responding to people who are like, why didn't my post two numbers? Why is this one working and this one not working? And they never really answer the question except to say, you know do good work and and keep posting and whatever.

So what you see is like the people who are successful in these platforms are the ones who are constantly running experiments in public like general mister beest whole thing, or he's like, if I have my mouth open in the thumb, IT gets more clicks like youtube didn't tell him that these the experiments he's running in public what google has done that is so wild as is is as if neil mohan called mister beest and said shut er mouths IT doesn't know and and then said so like, okay, it's one thing to not be told the rules of the game and figure red them out for yourself I actually think that relationship is like odd but fine, right? And it's like here here is A A black box. It's your job to figure that out that is sort of the internet we live on.

But for google to have spent this long denying the existence of what people are finding on their own and sort of making people question what they are finding with their own two hands and in front of their own two eyes is just wild. And again, we should say there is a lot about how all of this works that we still don't know. I think a lot of IT is going to start to come out very fast because there are a lot of people who do these experiments who are now armed with a tremendous amount of new data.

And so I think we're going to learn a lot about how google works really, really quickly now. Uh, but if I just feel so weird, hear the people who do this for a living be like, yeah, i've been asking these questions and being publicly lied to about how my job works for a decade. That just feels crazy. Also, we should know .

there are pending interest losses in google and what not regulars around the world who have nothing same questions and getting the same kind of answers.

what which another place a lot of interest is coming from, by the way, like there is this thing called nav boost that came up a bunch in the in the A P. I, which talks a lot about how click through rate. And this, if you're talking about like the long and short clicks, whether you come back very quickly from a search result or stay on the page while, uh, all of that is part of a system google has called nav boost that came up in the anti just trial and made some noise. But it's like, okay, this is actually overwriting a lot of our other rankings is what you do once you interact with a search result and that is very different from a google has told people.

yeah actually my favorite part of all this, my favorite thing because it's such a good name what's be honest? How do you get me? You give something an an adorable name.

Google has spent years positioning search as a utility, right? Not as a business that they run, but as the water or electricity of the internet. It's just a neutral utility. You just slow use IT, and we don't have any idea about that. Just we sit the robots access the internet.

there's just a baby .

yeah they just find the stuff and they showed you. And when you try to cover search is anything other than a utility.

The attitude from google, like why would you do that? We want to teach people have search works and right? No, there's like a culture of search, like the same way that there's a culture of tiktok, right? And that's been a disconnect, but they have done that on purpose, right? Because if you treat something like utility or a neutral algorithm, or just the right answer that the google brilliance of payre k is discovered across the web, that maybe you don't poke out as too much, and inside these documents we find things like nave boost, or is part of a system that is called twitter lers.

Yes.

twin less in the way .

to think about IT is like the big google algorithm is like the back end. And right before IT displays your result, the twiddler show up and a little. And so now boost .

is a tooler.

It's like category ized a twitter. It's like we went and found some other stuff and suffer a IT and there's a bunch of dos. And like a lots of google systems are built as twitter ers, they have laugh deniability that the core search ranking algorithm doesn't take these factors sitting. But right before they shown .

to you twitter .

er is baby and it's like, i'm not that stupid, you know it's like it's one system that displays a searchers all at the end where IT happens. Look, I don't think they can run around me like we were always doing in the truth. Yeah, these twitter lers out of control.

They have no control over. They're just a baby. That's it's my favorite thing that everybody does. Now when they screw up, they just go.

i'm just a baby I want it's my first day running search .

who can .

say selves and we are gone to learn a lot more about this. And we often try not to oversell things. I'm just telling you, the web, the people who make the web are a flame because of these documents, because they do make google seem, if not out right, a liar, as though they have been socially engineering a community of people who make things into not believing what they see is able to saying.

And I think the backlash there is going to be ferocious ah. Especially as search traffic declines, especially as user behavior changes around AI, especially as the AI results continue to tell people to eat glue like it's not there's not a lot of trust left in this ecosystem. And it's it's to me, it's weird that there's not more coverage of IT. It's not a sexy of face them Ellen is an open first to twitter already them. I said this is the architecture of the internet.

Yeah, I think that is because that's White, so hard for people IT IT is so ingrained and how most people function that is shocking to them, to where point words like I I can't even process, I have to go yeah like most people, I don't think fully grasp how much the gook the google and most people don't fully grass how much google affects their online experience. They just don't know if they see IT everything, but it's just like just closed over IT and now is like, oh, we hearing to actually record with this and think about .

this yeah it's why I was like to talk about cooking websites uh because if you if you want the single clearest example of how google changes the way a web page works, go read a recipe site. Uh you you will see everything you need to see. You will see the h two, which google wants because they're going to be questions that people might be google.

You're going to see the jump to recipe thing, but then you're also going to see two thousand words of nonsense about their lives because you have to actually stay on the page a long time in order for google to believe that that's a successful search. They want images that's very important to google, like every single pixel of that page, write down to how the recipe is structured, is made for google. And anyone who runs food blog will tell you that the fundamental attention is like, I did this because I like food and I actually work for .

google and that feels crappy to a lot of people who.

right? But I do think what one more I thought of this, that i've i've been seeing a lot of increasingly in the S C O world, and I think is really interesting, like internet question is, uh, one way to read a lot of what we've seen in these leagues is that I C O is dead and no longer will work like that.

Me I I copied this one paragraph out from with the thing that ran up um he said google no longer rewards scrappy, clever S O, savi Operators who know all the right tricks they reward, establish brands, search measurable forms of popularity and established means that searchers already known click one thousand and eight to twenty eighteen or so. One could recently start a powerful marketing fly wheel with seo for google in twenty twenty four. I don't think that's realistic, at least not on the english language web.

In convenience sectors like there is there is a real defeated m to the idea that google cares a lot about the site. Third exists, the places people already go, what has been going on for a long time, and the idea that you can come and be new and good and smart and people will find you because that's how google works, is a dying theory. Yeah, I ask this .

question to a lot of just media people, website C, E, O on the coder ask this question senda. Why would anyone make a website? You're a new creator where we're all going to quit our jobs today. Well, which you should do. I can .

recommend IT enough .

best decision I ever made. I but I know how we find out the way to engage twenty ten. And you love in.

We had this idea for the verge. We all quit going to start anything. We started a website like a big day top website.

We didn't have a most. We started a big Harry that stop website with like forums and features and all the stuff. And then the mobile web came when we shunk down the thing and whatever.

But IT was never a question that we would start anything but a website. There are twelve us. We had a big idea. We wanted to do a thing. What we were going to do will start a website. I think if you get to that place in twenty, twenty four, maybe some people going to start A I don't think they think of those things as websites. Those are news letters or and ghost to whatever most of you what you're going to do to start youtube channels and tiktok channels yeah .

the only people like you who are kinds doing that sort of thing like, right, leaving their jobs, whatever is in and start of website are already established brance, right? Yes, like the folks who were over to four or four who were from vice, these folks just said i'm going to go and i'm going to start a new thing. And I they all take that model from dead spin that became defector. Yes, and and that works, but that is you have .

to have an audience .

that worked because they have that audience, right? Like most people don't have that audience. They don't have that scale. And in case he is writing about that, a lot of like he has to work to get platformer out. He has to like really put in the effort because scale is hard and it's much, much harder now because goog.

you and I those sites are great. I don't think they are four four on ghost. Yeah right.

So they're taking vana some infrastructure for news leader that exists that does to be a different kind of thing. But the idea that but we quoted. Website from scratch. Wouldn't I build a product that is a website I .

didn't do IT. Yeah but you you do twenty.

Twenty was just not a good business. And for the reason, David saying, and there are many things of change in the past thirteen years, but the idea the new creators on the internet will not go to the open web, but instead we'll go to a close to video platform, I think is very dangerous. And I don't know the right answer to get people packed to making open search able web properties. If the biggest search engine is like screw IT, like host, we'll just everyone can go read dot dash mart, like whatever like maybe that's right outcome and maybe that's just a closing of the web. But I again, with the reason we started covering at last year is because I oh, the comments coming in the more recovered IT we're like, oh, the comments coming like we should capture this moment and IT feels like, again, I thought the comment would be, I thought I did not expect be like everyone is this mad IT just feels like we'll see I guys, we're going to cover a lot more of IT. I think the other browser makers, regulators, there's just a flood of negative emotion about how google has behaved that IT might IT feels like good coming to head.

I do have one question for you guys, especially you, David, because you use a lot of different search engines. Are any of them good? Like do any of them, when you go, when you search something, actually give you those unique results, are used to be like you yeah now I know what i'm doing on this this search engine um yes .

and no cogan which is the one you mentioned, which is also what I use its ten box month. It's excEllent.

I cannot recommend enough paying for a search engine fields ridiculous but its where that uh has a thing that IT called small web where IT actually deliberately built a like crowd source database of sites that aren't diverge and aren't like big mainstream news sites that kind of dominated arch results, but are like people's blogs and little alternative news sights and local newspapers in all the kinds of good stuff. And you can you can toko the search just to that. And I think the sort of big omnibus search is never coming back from what IT is now. It's you it's just interface changes really like I think cogged stuff is Better than google, but mostly just because it's a nice or thing to use than google is at this moment.

especially in arc.

yeah. But where we are now is like the the only solution is going to be to artificially decide which part of the web you want to look at because all of the signals for the rest of the weber are starting to break away from that lake, find and explore new things vibe because that's harder to do and harder to measure. Then oh, people generally believe that nei is right about which printed by. And that's actually like a pretty easy thing for a search engine to believe and send you to over and over again.

And we will continue ruthlessly using .

our japan authority.

a big printer again, I can member with you. So this casey might have seat to me in passing. We still think of surfing the web as a fun thing to do.

And all of google messaging and I O was, let google do the google in for you. yeah. Which makes IT seem like work. And it's, I know this is how I waste the time.

Do you know how much I didn't pay attention in law school because I was just browser the like that's it's weird that we've made the web this unpleasant and the platforms figured that out. And hopefully, we can get some that back and we can we're in he brunning website. We do have a tiktok.

For as long as tiktok, we're going to keep using our domain authority to crash. Big printer has less ruthless, thus domain authority abuse. But that's our mission. Here are the world we got to take a break, will read back support for.

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Or back, it's lightning ing around one according to run down the AI lightning round. So there's a bunch of ww c rumors about what's going to happen with open a eye. They've apparently ink their deal.

Google had a bad week last week. We should talk about that more. Google um GPT are open now with over an a store. There's a lot, but I know people wanted to talk our press foxie ious press ly, which is that, like many media companies, rocks media signed a content and technology deal with over A I the atlantic had won in the same day that was like fox, the atlantic, where have lands together? I know you were interview me.

yes, so okay. I think the the big question to me is both, uh, how do we feel as people who work at a company with a deal like this and what is what does all this mean about the media in general? So I think like we we just have a conversation earlier with into the folks in our newsroom talking about the stuff. And and I think I wanna for you with somebody who runs a newsroom, you didn't make this deal. Uh, you I assume will at some point see the contract because you like yelling .

about contract just thing you do. I do. I do my best IT is more likely that I will see someone else's contract before I see our own companies.

So that's interesting. That's that's a fun reporting tactic. Can I bully my boss before I simply because .

that's like the our companies very good at being like, no, you can't just report our own company. Other companies like here's the stuff like, yes, that's just the way of being .

a reporter yeah that's fair. But so I I am cares for you as like A A newsroom leader. How you even think through what a deal like this means?

Sure, we do a lot of disclosures on the show failest. Ly, I think i've had journalism professors talk to me about the fact that our disclosures are running joke. The audience, like we want to be really transparent about where information comes from, reasons to not trust us if you don't want to trust us, like my goal is always to just empower the audience with information.

That's the top level. So like if you're listening to this and you have listen to the show, that's why we do the soldiers. That's why they are joke. Like I want the only currency we have as a newborn ization is trust. So we're trying to.

That's why we have the background as you had, all the spokespeople have to use their names when they talk to us because we don't want to pretend we know something. The dagger sold us if google or apple or microwave who whoever wants to talk to us and get some information on ARM pages, they need to be accountable for IT, not us. And that's just trust.

That's just who are you gona trust? Where does a trust go? Who do you have to trust for to believe this story? So that's the top level right next to that, which I think the audience doesn't see as much because why would you is our newsroom has to not think about IT like that's actually with independently, right?

Is not I know that our company has a deal or investor, and i'm just gna like i'm going to think about IT as I like the sort. The goal is they don't think about IT at all and we just go to the reporting and we publish what is true or what we believe or what we think people should know, right? And that the in any traditional ism, that's the what is called the fire, all right? So we do stuff for sales.

Teen, there's advertising over. We just came back from an outbreak, right? Like in that we .

don't know what the ads are. I don't know what ads just played.

I get so many emails, what script ads I don't know in, like I think crypto stupid shit. Like what do you want me to do? Like that, that team.

And if we open the door and start telling that team what to do, the danger in this is a danger is proven out over, over again in eusebius around the world. If we open the door to telling them, what's you, they, hey, that doors open when I tell you to. So we keep the door closed, this is why you have the fire.

All that works in both actions. So for me, another cent open. I in particular, pretty shady company of like our entire episode last .

week was like this company .

is pretty shady where whatever, fine, but like that's the commercial side of our company. And I understand I talked to a lot of meat exactly like i'm running around covering google here. I've been talking to a lot of media people lately.

I can talk with that bigger question, David, of like, are these good deals of these like a good idea broadly? Because I think i've done some reporting. I have some thoughts about that.

But the thing that like when I pressed, when I like, no, we're not going to change our recover opening. Yes, I think when it's appropriate will disclose IT. It's not like a like comcast is an investor in our company, right? We disclose that every time we whisper a comcast because they're an investor. This is a licensing deal like we have a lot of those across our company. I don't want to just get into situation where i'm like disclosure, yahoo licenses and rss feet of the dodo like like I think that dog can get to open and we can also read IT.

So this would go .

a little long. They would go a little long. And I want to preserve our independence. And what independence really means to me is, yes, what this goes, yes, will earn ever and trust.

But I would prefer IT if we were discovering, opening the eye without thinking about IT. And so that's that's the baLance and trying to strike open to people's ghz about how much you need for us to continue having that trust. Um but IT is in many ways like more of a Normal deal than people are expecting, right? Like when when we did a netflix show, I think there was less outside. But like I was the producer of a disclosure, I made a netflix .

show every time you should watch.

should watch your network .

show to make just that was .

like like i'm going to meetings in netflix about our show I was to talk about until show was made. So I want to make sure you, like, find the right baLance. And I understand this just a lot of feelings on A I and open a particular. But like at the end of the day, the goal for all of these media companies is to just get some control back out of a situation that felt out of control.

And what situation is that?

Will they took everything anyway? Right, right? That's the situation. And we can talk about that broadband. I just want to separate the two things like our newsroom is independent, open, aye did not buy any control of our newsroom.

We will be very honest with everybody when we think the disclosure would affect how you perceive one of our stories. And I think that around corporate like that makes sense to me. We're going to write story about the new ork times lost you in opening eye. That is a great place for discussion. Opening launched is a new GPT feature like I don't know, you tell me maybe we need do that every time, but like I I don't want to over read IT is the make IT seem like we're doing something we're not that's like my top line like what you will have a disclosure I love a disclosure disclosure investor in vox media and an f disk.

Alex grans is the last remaining .

python plus describe hi, look at this is our brand and we're going to do them. I just the thing that I am trying to be careful about is separating how people feel about these deals broadly and what that means for our newsroom, right? And what that means our newsroom is the status quote like IT is not changing.

We are going na Operate with that fear or favor. And again, my girl is to earn everyone's trust by being a transport as we can be. And I just want to make sure that we're not so transparent that we actually go in a full circle and now believes us.

So like you tell me where you think of what is. I open to the feedback I asked for from our saturday and asking for from the audience today. But the the main thing is not changing, which is I want I I would prefer IT if our reporters were not worried about an open ideal or thinking about IT and we just covered the company like we have been for a long time.

Yeah yes. And this is a thing we should take like a thing i've learned about the media business over the years is that is very unusual in the sense that like that tension you are describing between the work that we do and where the money comes from is like good and healthy and should always exist.

And the our editorial and sales team should always like each other a little bit, uh, but also like we have tech company ads all over our website, like that is that is it's a not this similar thing and IT IT is just something you have to devigny get comfortable with. And like people always like sending us the software. I will make a verge caste about how terrible facebook is right before a facebook like it's my favorite thing is so fun but I do you want to talk about the broader piece of this because I think the I think you're right. The reaction I said out there was less like, you know.

the one more thing, we're not going to start p publishing a bunch a high content. Hello.

people see partnership. They are like any problems or close.

Yeah, I am the only person. The look, both posts were of about printers. I wish you people would get matter of me about IT make that postcard even more viral.

No one do IT. We will only use A I to brew in our domain authority .

in google search. That's i'm sure we're going to end up building some like there's one thing that all this want, which is we would like Better all text on images to make them more accessible, to make the same more accessible. We would like our site Better for screaming ters.

Right now. It's all a very many network. If we can use some these tools to make that Better, make some more accessible, that's a great outcome, right?

I don't know that not work right now. Our creative team tells me like this, all texas, not good in A I everybody. It's just not good enough yet.

But if we can start to do that, so that's great. So there is that part of IT, which I think is interesting. I don't know what that looks like. I didn't touch your products, me about any that um but the other part where the verge is just the verge, that's going to remain exactly the same today as I was A.

Yeah OK let's what the road said this because I think there are there are two pieces of the should media companies be making deals like this with OpenAI question that I find very interesting, we should talk about with them.

The first is um having you at etes learned your lesson from making these deals with companies like facebook and google and everybody else who promised you money to save journalism and in fact forced to do a bunch stuff, pulled out the rug and kind of screw at the industry. The second is um aren't you guys don't you realize that A I is out to put all view out of jobs and just take your information, use IT in training data and then get rid of you. Why are you assuring in the journalism apocalypse and next to someone stand those are like two versions of the same question. But I think are like the big picture, things going on here like are we contributing to our own downfall or we chasing money at the expense of doing anything that is smart or long term thinking?

I mean, the media industry never does anything.

yeah. The media industry is not known for a really good business.

Business project.

I think we have talked a show is that we the media industry as a whole probably should have spent more time over the last decade building facebook competitors than making facebook videos. And I think like my hope is we have learned that lesson and that the next minute of the journalism industry will be learning that lesson and executing on IT, which is I think part of I was so excited about the photo vers because it's a thing that opens up possibilities for new kinds of media products. Uh, is there a fear that the OpenAI and the like, A I search engine stuff that is inevitably coming is just the next pivot to video and everybody falls for IT and gives up on building new things for five more years? yes.

okay. So here's I just i'm going to bracket our company because they did not talk you, which is like that's the fire wall. yes. But nick thomson, who is a CEO of the atlantic, has published a bunch of like the atlantic to the ultimate video about IT.

You can wash them linton and IT used to be the eternal f of why take you to work for me? I did what a nick nose he knows yeah he get IT I nick nine friends, he knows he he understands me something um actual springer, her sign one of these deals, financial times to someone these deals, a lot of these companies are signing these deals. My understanding of the deals from the reporting, not from the dig around our company before the reporting is too full.

One, we just spent a whole much time talking at google. Google is a fair use argument, right? Were going to come in index all of your information we're going to show to people in return you'll get traffic and where instead it's a little little squeaky bit. okay. And then google want a bunch of cases against different immediate organza that did not like this idea.

We're going to index book in the world and shows people and the book publishers like, no, you're stealing stuff in google in that case, google where index all the images on internet lunch a porn publisher said, no, that's we don't want to do that and they were not the most sympathetic defendants and and the world google, in that case google said that we're going to put every episode of south park on youtube and victim said no and then they started posting episode des of south park to youtube on there and they lost the case that was not a great legal strategy, but that's. But that all of google, that whole platform dynamic was we're going to take your stuff and I pay you and you will get something, get exposure in that look around. So I think I think a lot of the reaction right now is what we cannot let that happen again.

We need some rules. I think of a problem for all these companies is an open a eye. And google and whoever else anthropic complexity will you name IT? They're taking IT anyway.

Yeah, yeah. They have IT lama scraped on the internet. Every facebook we've ever made .

open laa built a tool to scrape youtube for more data. Look, that's just how it's done. No, I think you know, absent our own company, I D know nothing about the deal beyond.

We don't have say.

yeah, yeah, yeah. We have has a continent.

china logy.

I think you're right where it's like IT is a thing of the everybody is already been taken. It's already gone. Everybody is the the cat is out of the bag, right? Genie out of the bottle, whatever information you want to use there, it's happened and now it's okay.

What do we put a Price on that? And a lot of these companies where we're starting to hear more about the Price there, we're starting to hear what IT is, and that might not end up being the right Price, right? Like, like these deals might not be the right deals, but they are deals, they are money and there wasn't money.

I think a really interesting thing is how do you set the right Price? What is the value you've already trained on IT? What is deal for now, one of the things that has come out about these deals for all, for more, and they all basically same structure.

I think the the news crop deal is like two hundred fifty million dollars over private ten years, right? Most the other deals are ten million dollars over five, ten years, and like that only five. The main thing that is about them is that they govern how much can be displayed, how the information is displayed, how attributed, what the links are in IT. And you look at that and I what I see is a honestly a reaction to google, which has gone from we're linking to your stuff to we're going to cut out your stuff and put IT in pictured snippets to we're going to have our A I rewrite whatever and just try the answer and I going to do a click and .

then you're eat love and there's nothing you can do about that because we're indexing your website every single day.

There's nothing new in a contract, right? So I what I have heard in what I see is like that control and I I think nick the end, nick thoms in that for a wired, who knows has been public with this, his ancient atlantic, that control is the thing because if you go beyond that, you don't have to go invent some copyright yeah I and you have a breach of contract. And that's much easier to litigate.

The other thing that I see happening all of the industry and we made an entirely cut episodes and I um about how olive I rests on a totally shake copyright for your argument that could blow up at any moment like open up your business could blow up at any moment because you have weird ideas about cover a law. No one can afford to litigate these ideas. So the new york times suit opening someone famously, they've spent a million dollars and I will suit so far public company. We just know the answer um to get nothing because they haven't haven't achieved an outcome in they could .

lose and they could lose.

So that's a coin. Flt, the time big club company they were on a very successful ful video in service. Maybe the most successful online game service of all is an where are all just paying the bills for this loss IT? Um most many companies do not have just some cash cow cooking website or gaming service to fund a lawsuit about their journalism.

And so I think they're looking at the times lawsuit. They're saying this is is going to take five years. This is take ten years.

I go to supreme court, they might lose, hopefully the times wins if they win, or contracts will expire, right? And then and will renegotiate with the strength of this copyright president. And if they lose, will just read a deal.

yeah. And I I see that playing out as most media companies cannot afford to go litigate these deals. Importantly, no one can afford to to .

google yeah like google got infinite money and I.

I know ever and saw opening and know whatever disclosure opener has a content technology folks. Me, you I would just we just spent a whole per segment about google, which is the thing is the eight hundred pounds irl. Everyone on the web Operate the university of google, including open eye, right? Open has made google dance on a quote, but there's still IT. But google is the big, profitable, ultra high margin company.

And open a eye doesn't make a dollar as far as I understand, right? They're still losing money. So you just there's there's a difference there how these companies are perceiving their integon ist.

And I think they can get open at the count of the table. And eventually, what they're going to do is are going to go to google and then we will say pay us your competitors paying us. Our traffic is dropping.

If he continues to drop, we're going to we're going to pull the plug on you indexing our website. And I don't know how long as you take. Maybe you'll never happen because the threats are effective, but you just see that's where the .

trend line is headed and then you will see you'll only get the r elf by .

this one printer new line recommend i'll sell you one link to go. But that that's like broadly, how I see the dynamic of this playing out is the cop I care a lot of, i've copy a lot. The copy are even so uncertain on both sides of the coin that people are trying to buy some certainty so that they have leverage to go negotiate against the real power ecosystem.

That makes logical sense to me. I also think that might be wildly optimistic about who is actually going to extract anything from google. I like our .

media executives. I think there are a lant IT should be clear, right? I think nick is very smart. Most media ecus no, I mean a player.

even the faces is good, right? Like I I buy the faces as far as I goes. I just think there is not a lot of evidence that says anyone can pick a fight with google and win because we are in this, what I mean, like U K.

parpon. About google zero. Like when that happens and people have nothing to lose by picking that fight with google, they might start to pick that fight with google right now. If I just say you can't craw my website anymore, overwhelmingly, I go straight out of business .

yeah that's what I mean that this like you like the trend lines, right?

But the trend is so slow it's so IT isn't slow.

I think for some publishers, it's super slow. For others, it's not right. Yeah if if you're seeing shaky ess in your google results and you're seeing A I overviews and you're like maybe google zeroes real or you're midd size publisher, right, which are not getting these deals right now.

It's all the big publishers again somewhere down the road. The the size publishers, I assume, get the deal or we offered a deal or go ask deal, who knows? At some point where the trend line of our google traffic is going down, our investment in caring about you is no longer worth IT and they are paying us money.

But I I that is it's a destabilizing factor in all of these conversations where there has never been destabilizing factors for about a decade. Ah we'll just sit like the last time this happens. This is the negative argument.

I'll give everyone the negative argument. David, read about this. You read about google amp. The begin last year because I was like, we ve got to start with what google has done to the web.

Google did APP because facebook shut up and said, do instant articles and put all your articles directly into our platform in the lobby, fast native on the way, and we will send a shit of audience to them. And good, you will freak out and did empt and all the publish how to do APP. And this was a disaster.

This is probably all the way around and a disaster and IT face because, like, we hate news, actually, what we have to text, all of you make videos and improved to video this equal growing disaster and turned out to be a huge mess. You can do anything good. IT actually spread misinformation, because all the website looked the same.

I go on about three days and days and days. Google is there again if they are afraid of something. And so like the river effect of that, I think, is interesting.

And I think what most of the publishers i've talked to, what their interested in is can we make them not copy in vertical stamp, but copy payments for search because that's what they all want. Ah one thing we haven't talked a lot about on the show um is a bill, the essays of the J C. P.

A, the journalism competition preserve act. It's funny you would think that the publishers can all get together, do and say we're going to pull our content from rival search. They have a lot of leverage.

If they do IT all together to get a lot of leverage, what's left? But they can't because I would be collusion under the anti trust laws, which was incredible. Ah, so the J C P A is I think it's a global tribal uh that would create an exemption for publishers to bargain with large platforms like over a billion in revenue. One of those numbers that like makes IT google and facebook yeah it's one of those ways of sing gooden facebook without google, facebook who would create a exception to n atr laws so that could bargain as a unit against large .

platforms or they could just like rule that google has built monopoly.

Yes, there's a lot of that. There's just a lot of these ideas vote around how you equalize the bargain power. And anyway, I that's I just see the bigger picture, which is the radial is real like people got burnt super hard by the raw deal of the platforms, most of which will give you some money with no contract that says where the money will come from.

The facebook news partnership for the google news initiatives or IT, was make a thing for us that we want facebook video or IT was we're going take your stuff for free in patient exposure, which is google search. And I what I see now is we have a contract, right? We're just not doing this again where you're going to pay this money.

We're onna tell you what you can take. And if you don't pay us enough money will see you. If you take too much, we will see you.

And that has a little bit of teeth. I don't know, IT to work again. I know a lot of me. The executives out used to work for some of the worst of the executives.

Sure me.

It's not like they're not all this is not an industry that can see the long game and it's an industry that's under pressure. So might be making mistakes. But I I see the difference here.

I don't know these are good ideas. I know they feel great, great. Like there's a lot of the response yesterday into all these other ideals.

Do these feel great? No, but I I think I can identify the differences. And I think at least what I see as well, I took the shit anyway, some money is Better than no money. And a lot of the deal for a long time with no money.

definitely where I am sitting is like, some money is Better than no money. But also one I want to just point out, this is a lightning round, and we've been on unrealities lightning.

right? Sorry.

sorry for a while. And I want to take over from my lightning room, which is about OpenAI, because I call that I just backward win open eye. There was the crew a bunch.

The board members were like, we don't like sam were firing him. Everybody gathered around. Sam was like, no, you are baby.

We love you. Come back. He's now back in charge.

More powerful than ever, right? Like that. That's reporting allegedly information. Just said OpenAI C, E, O, cems control.

So like that's happening, finding they find all the safety .

people pushed him out a choice. But h HEllen toner, who is one of those board members who who voted to have him kicked off, kicked out and then left because he won, was on a podcast this week, didn't was like, yeah, we just didn't trust him. Yeah, like he just was so consistently not telling us the truth.

We we just lost all trust in him. And that is really, really interesting to think about. As he does cement more powers, as he does get more powerful, as he does put himself in charge of safety at the company, and all of those people who were in charge safety have left. And as that company is still technically run by a nonprofit, that whole job is to protect as all from A I like, oh, buddy, yeah that's not .

working for yeah i'm actually i'm curious. It's been like the scope logy hand and situation has not there have been no new pieces of information. It's been prety quiet on that front. Yeah that's not going to just end right. IT ends with a settled or a statement .

or a place he's going to do a partner .

ship with OpenAI as well like SHE has some great ideas for your text, but like the the backlash to A I in general but i'll agree this little data point uh, I think there's a real gap in how people feel about the thing and then what people are doing. Uh, we've never gotten so many sort of like unhappy notes about a decode episode is when we have to see over doby, we had some happy ones to people want to hear from.

That guy doesn't go about interviews. I asked, thought of photo list, he doesn't know. But then we get a lot of people extreme the sky.

Yeah we just don't like a dobby. We don't like A I like a ruining everything. His comments with a pensive um weird weird right .

this real backlash.

I an negativity one thing he told me an episode um was generated file is used as much as layers. They launched this tool and that is used on the order of layers, in fact, which is basically people open the APP.

Yeah, that's how you get layers. You open the APP.

you open the APP. And then like people use IT inside, there's a real gap and I exam kind of embodies the gap, right, which is is just the face of boy, we're not being very careful with this. He's the face of I can do that everyone because i'm a someone's .

gone to call him the bad boy of A I soon i'm sorry.

I don't know there's nothing about his dinner that supports bad boy. I'm sorry. It's just not sorry. It's not i'm sorry there are much Better contenders with you 我们 um but like he's the face of that gap， which is actually the reveal behavior of many people, is that the tolls are useful. They can helpful people like them like i'm the nation's foremost ten ring or what is a photo and I definitely use the generated racer library yesterday then for a family photo .

that I share with no one I would use IT.

All that aid noise in light room, I think, is magic. I've talked IT is reconnecting alizad. How I think about some of my old cameras.

We would just like this earlier today, where I think a lot of people don't realize how many of the tools we actually use are already AI, right. Like like gramarye is using some sort of AI. Photoshop is all A I.

And if you've been using photoshop for the last ten years, you've been using a and but I think your right words, sam altman has become the kind of the center point and and everybody y's talking about him and they're talking about specifically, they don't trust him and they don't trust the kind of AI he's doing, which is very specific kind, right? It's it's taking over your search. It's uh providing just easy generative content in a way that most A I tools that people use have a very specific purpose and are used for very specific things. And he's built the lie .

bot and opening this incredibly busy corporate structure was all meant to bucks in the bad thing.

even box in the libert and keep the lib t.

keep IT safe. And he's torne all that down yeah and now open eye, instead of being this weird done profit with a profit center that supports them on profit, is feels like just same women's company yeah.

it's called the OpenAI. And I would just point out their whole thing was being the good guys for so, so, so long. And they made IT so far on big promises of being the good guys. And then, just like on a dime, turn in on the other way, the second money. D how fast this has happened.

right? GPT three point five hit. They're like, oh, people like this.

We're evil now. They cut their little evil helmet.

But the interesting thing is they don't, again, they don't have any revenue, right? Like this company. Is that wildly profitable? There might be in on .

a path to IT covering, take too long now, didn't not realize that revenue is not important as largest people will keep giving you money.

You don't need red, which is why I think they make all this know. As we built the future.

people will keep giving you money.

Uh, the number one the funniest h like GPT apps at um yeah to everybody and I just like in the top one in my styles and strategy APP, this is actually a perfect use case for like you like I just make them show up about your future ah yeah we show that so that is coming up. There was some more than this week that apple has made the deal to sign with open eye that open will power the stuff. Interestingly, their em back and forth about whether you will run locally on the phone, which would match chapel privacy promises or gobs the cloud, which is fascinating because more powerful.

more powerful.

But where will you run? There's important any mark germen in bloomberg reported that they're going to put m two ultras R M three ultra in a data center and have a virtual black box o for privacy that .

that works out every time.

But who knows IT gives real like peeper running mac minutes on your ah .

yeah um and then you've got open and the mix which is like is a mol going to n can run the ultra whatever .

you know you can't fit the thing on your phone and very confident that you cannot run GPT .

for o on your phone locally to this thing right that runs on NVIDIA eight .

one hundred ds like a lot of them ah like a lot of them.

And you know what you companies hate each other with the beauty of a thousand sounds is in video and apple, yes, but they're .

also to the best people at making processors that can handle A I stuff.

G one of them is really one .

of .

them really good to use.

The other one, one just took the .

training wheels of .

its I can play crusader king on the P2P. So i'm just very ious. How if you're going to run there's a chance you're running IT on a bunch of eight one hundred ds in a microsoft data center, which is a real weird .

place rapper to be. Well, german's peace this week about about the the deal was also kind of interesting because that seemed to be like they're not gna go full out with all the A I tools we're going to see from them at wwdc as far as A I goes, is gonna lot more adobe like then? Yes, yes, I don't think they're to chat pot.

I think that is the right move.

Yeah, that's so fun. I totally disagree. Yeah, I think they are going to go full hard with syria. And I think that's the OpenAI play is just take the theory you can talk to and plug IT into GPT for o and instantly it's the best siri has ever been. Uh then how you scale that down to like turning off bluetooth, which is a thing that I can do on my phone that does not require the internet, is becomes a really interesting A I chance .

you just describe, like to promise a bixby.

I mean, what I use theory for almost exclusively is playing music, adding reminders to the reminders, APP and setting timers. And none of those things require ping GPT for a they just don't uh, but I think apple, like everyone else, is going to have to convince investors that IT has a chatbot play in order to survive, not survive.

But you really mean is a wall street wants to see that you have some big new single idea and so they're going to do IT because they feel like they have to all the interesting A I stuff is going to be the like on device self. And that's the thing that we're already seeing apple do well just by putting A I features into apps, going to to see a lot of IT with photos. There's a lot of uh, noise around A I generated a mogi. That's the kind of thing you don't really need OpenAI ford that actually apple has been working on for a long time. The the only reason I can see that you would strike a deal like this with OpenAI is if you want to blow out the light, conversational aspect of things.

just like so much in the face of apple security stuff.

yes. Is IT is the google deal like .

so that's true. That's true. But the google deal like we didn't know the terms of the google deal for years, right? And this was a fairly public deal with open eye.

really. It's just been Better reported on because OpenAI is the legist company .

in the history world, just like just .

holes everywhere. It's only the end. This just driving me crazy. I could sing him through although they own because they're on the m four now.

I just assumed they .

just a lot of alters when they stopped .

with the like is is as good as in h one hundred OpenAI e tell us. I think apple .

knows that the idea of behind is an external perception of the company. And they're watching they are watching companies kind of let their brands on fire and not there's never going to do that. They are cautious to the extreme. And that way, I think I think this crush ad disaster for them, which was not even about A I he was an ipad, a yeah that everyone decided was a about ai. I think they saw that and they were like, no, like where we're to do some stuff, photos and some stuff and emotion.

Es, well, there's can be stuff and search.

So i'm sure that is dusting member last year or they like the keyboard, a board is done yeah robt, it's still pretty ad. They're going to do that kind of thing. yeah.

And I think that might be everywhere. They might announce more features. But that last turn where it's like, do you want to bang in out, I don't know.

We're onna get there this time. I I think they're very comfortable the perception that they're quote behind because I I think they're watching google. I think they're watching reaction to their own advertising and saying this stuff is not ready in the culture around IT is too negative.

That is just my sense from you know talk to the effects. But I don't I don't know. I know what that actually, nance.

I look forward to we're onna be there live. Uh and we we're doing a podcast in cupertino h and I am going to spend a lot of time gloody on that show that i'm really looking for .

to I I really hope dave is wrong just so I can. I just that's IT, but I hope you're right for you .

spiritually, David. I just I think if you are worried about the stock Price of your company and I know that they are, you look at IT, what is happening at microsoft, you say, oh, we need something like that and what they'll say is they'll make a lot of noise about like the all the stuff you can do inside of apps. And then I will come around to and also IT wants to be your best friend.

but also a serious horny now, tim, I hoo.

Image, just imagine timon cook been like in serious now yeah.

just be with syria.

I looked in U. S. We got this is the slightly up with strange places, but it's been a good one where we are back. We have yet another unsponsored lightening and.

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How long is the subway now? Four hours were to talk about .

ourselves .

more three, eighty one minutes.

right? To bring this to a close lighting round style. I'm going to bring up the ul t power seven or whatever it's going.

So you're lighting around acting. It's been more and a lot of lighting this.

The SONY logo is slightly holographic IT .

looks kind like, oh, oh, is IT let up no holiday?

Sometimes I remind people that the avengers entire competitive differentiation is that we love gadgets. And i'm telling you this is our entire competitor differences.

Yeah, we freak out of IT.

No, nobody's going to sponsor the lighting round. If you just pick up a speaker and talk about how terrifically is everything we get that money from someone for you to that I don't know.

Oh, there's a firewall between that and cattle. They keep telling me that there's incoming like I think .

all of our sponsors are going to be like a month late being like remember that time need like a really weird with our speaker on air SONY.

I wish I knew how I think SONY will love .

your lightning round a look if if .

you're fill SONY or ever run SONY, give us a call. Someone is here to take your call. Mega base, ultimate sounder, whatever power vives, whatever is power vives you elt are right? Cranes, you, I an you over last in .

the first one yeah um so it's it's going to get and that fitbit has a new .

watch for kids the .

the the s lte and is IT a way for you to track your children. G P S, yes. Um do you feel control about that? I don't know, i'm not you if you do this probably is not an exciting gaddi for you but um IT seems really cool because it's like game of file as fitness in what appears to be a really nice wave.

Victoria song went and got to check that out. I ve had from us, some other people got to check IT out everybody shoes. Like, this thing rules.

And I kind of want one for myself. yes. And like, that's the hallmark of a good ask gadget for kids.

Yeah, you take that the band and replace the band and there's like a little tamagi kind of thing in the watch and so we replace the band, it'll like change. It's it's our stuff. It's it's sick adult .

fitness trickery or like goods. Talk about vio two max and this one is just like make the cool little guy go and .

like that how you exactly like kind of rules um except is way too expensive. IT is two hundred and twenty nine dollars and ninety five cents and it's .

also called the s lte, which is like the least cool kid name i've ever heard.

It's real bad. And also you need a data plan to to get the full rich ness of IT called .

the s pass.

And IT is not cheap. IT is like ten dollars a month.

Oh.

it's stuff.

So i'm going to .

stay just putting an air tag alternative, an air g child and and done we're not yet we have not .

yet hit the let's put an area tag on what if you glue the air .

tag to the atoi or three prints some sort .

of case .

that that sean could do that for yeah now there's .

out there's infinite. This is the the entire ec economy is weird A I generated crap and the three printed stuff.

It's real and place that you can put your air tag on anything. There is a case for IT. If you want to attach your air tag to a thing, you can find a case for on that. Yeah.

I just talk .

about this like lately, weird discord blog post. This week a the company basically announced its pivoting back to video games.

I didn't know IT left.

So this is that. So a in twenty, twenty, when discord was like really feeling itself and there was noise that discord was going to be acquired for, I think like ten billion dollars. IT was IT was the the work from home moment.

The world was weird. We trying not to talk about that different twenty very often. Uh, discord like announced that he was going to be more than just a gaming thing that I wanted to be uh uh community APP for the future of the world.

And this cord actually has like gotten a lot of things about building a community apply right. There are lot of things about that are very clever. Uh, I don't think that work to accept that people started planning like crapo and crimes.

Turns out there's a like unities out there yeah and not a .

lot like fortune five hundred companies running on discord. So I I said the company pivoted back and is now about gaming again, then made a bunch of small changes that don't really change anything and then said they want to be easier for connecting either before, during or after playing a game. And I would just point out that all the time, that's still just everything.

So i'm just in a strange place where, like, I feel that who is what somebody in our science was saying, like this is not a message to users. This is a message to investors of like we get IT. It's fine where we're running away from.

Crapo, please stop doing crimes in disco. But I just thought I was very fund. It's like discord is like we will remain discord just like, please, only only two games here, please. Yeah.

I did learn new things from that blog post. I didn't know you could have discord like the P. S. five. Yes, clearly, I don't really .

like ultimately we can dey what sometimes like what if I deploy this in the PS five and know what why?

Because it's got a sick process. IT looks cool. I mean.

discourse is really good chat at part of me, which she's going hard, gone more mainstream. And instead of like the fifty what up group chat time in, I was in a bunch of discord like I feel like I feel cooler. But alas.

no, i'm in a couple of .

a bunch of discords. Crimes are fine. I don't do in a crime crime.

H, no.

i'm guessing you're in at least one pass for that to discord.

I'm not that, but but I just think of the some crimes have definitely happened.

But Jason was on as a quoter a while ago, basically previous in all this. If you don't listen, talk about IT. I was i'd spent a lot of time you like crime happened here, like I needed to stop.

And he said to me, are really interesting. That is like most discords ds, like three people and just like three or four friends hang out and discard. And that's like the vast majority of disco activity.

And then the big ones like for the stuff, right? But we talk about why they make games and their APP platform of something like we just do that to dog food like features for the big games, right? I'm going to pick one I wanted to pick.

I fix IT in samsung, breaking up and uh other repair companies or starting to say they can't pick samsung stuff either. That's boring. What I want to pick is x the platform folding on a sweater.

Now hiding likes what I miss this.

It's very good. So they're not hiding likes they are hiding who likes something? So you know people used to go on twitter and like likes something you can see our public likes.

They're hiding that. They're hiding replies. They're doing this because brows keep like .

in poor yeah that's not. That's all the funny est stuff on .

twitter that was the best. Like when tim ted tim crews head crews yeah like was like I love this is a very deal a .

IT is the funniest sign of a platform in decline that its user base is now so stupid they don't even have fake accounts to like more ah I was hearing about .

there's apparently simple reporters who love to to like models on the instagram and they don't know that they get little. The M O, G also shared .

on .

threats. So be, be thoughtful. You're to be horny. Don't be horny on mine.

Look, how do you increase android phone sales by a burner phone to do horny stuff. Are you listening to me? Google, that's what the pixel is for morny stuff.

It's pretty good actually.

Buy a burner pixel, just the a refer pixel. fine. With that beautiful red case.

It's it's available to you. It's just an idea. I have to increase your sales, save your company. Twitter x is saying, um as soon as I was like with that worrying you might see IT we want to encourage people to like more edge content. They use the word edg.

wow.

Want you to like your porn more often.

Um if you are the sort of person who perhaps your own work is that he not I like I don't know. It's like same altman is the bad boy. It's like happy.

But he would love IT. He would like IT so much that he'll never get IT ah on wants twitter to be edge so much he'll never had IT. Um I just think this is truly one of the funny exchanges and social platforms ever made. There's like other reasons, right like i'm confident elan wants the weird racist to now populate twitter to be like weird racist posts without seeing IT. Like ah there there's a deep dark .

will you be able to there go into the likes and look at the light? Still no other .

people can see .

them at all.

right? You yourself will be able to see who like your posts OK you can see the light for post like public accounts, but you will not see who like someone else is post, and you will not see others. You will not see what people.

I cannot wait for one of those creators of eg. Content to get fed up with their edge followers and just put them all .

of the sadness little black .

book in the world yeah the sad little black book that will .

be so good and it's amy is truly, deeply wonderful 的 hilly platform and decline just doing the weird stuff。

I just really like the idea of ultimately doing good, healthy things by removing engagement matrix in the service of making your platform easier to be sketchy on. Like I think that I trader .

is going to end up tax is going to end up, I think as a porn platform, like I think they will find a way to subsume only fans because it's the last thing left for them to video first. Now, supposedly, oh, SHE appeared. SHE had not appeared anyway anywhere since the code conference, from what I I understand was went great for her.

Can you repeat the question?

And SHE appeared and said, x is now a video of first platform for creators and everyone on what? You don't make any video you on. Musk never makes a video on this video first.

But if you want to make corney videos, you can and .

secretly like them.

Yep, ted cruise is just gonna a static.

right? I'm just saying and we're in a new era of the internet, right? I really happened to the web, but I know this is the ul t power sound era and i'm convinced this is the horn igher or and ripon .

a for when you're urged to like something is irresistible, but you .

don't I just .

got to hit that yeah .

you want them to know, but you don't .

want anyone else to know that actually a great like opposite of what happens on iphone stays on iphone messaging for google when you want them to know. But no one has to know the google picks andry.

you just do in google job today.

I'm try and i'm trying to help everybody, right? Someone give us some money somehow. Lighting rounds available for a horny pixel sponsor's where way over time.

Appreciate you. We do want your feedback. I am very sincere about this. I know people have a lot of feelings.

We are here to earn your trust in whatever way that this previous segment earn your trust. H us. And now you can reach out to us. You can call David at some phone number.

eight, six, six. First one one call the line.

See IT call us. We will answer your questions again, we are not trying to hide the ball here all, but we are trying to go home to our families. So that's that's a chest recommend.

And that's IT for the verge cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at eight, six, six verge one one. The verge cast is the production of the verge and box media podcast network, our showers produced by hand, rer marino and leon James, that's IT. We'll see you next week.

Alex just made a huge discovery on the ul t seven or whatever. This is old. Tell us what the ports are.

Um okay, we ve got a light button. We got a battery button with a minus sign for battery care .

OK key control.

I don't, I don't know. Music .

that's for Carry .

OK OK echo guitar. We got a guitar input, right?

This thing rules.

I don't know. Going on.

these are all fully Carry of you controls. And then you can play a guarded.

sure.

I don't know what battery minus cared us.

I really want to know, but probably not today on the verge cast two.

three, four, five. Boy can.

It's that's a numa numa energy, right?

You always started the middle which like.

I love you. This thing fills your pure joy. Like every other tech company is like, we got to do some a eye stuff that the robots gonna bang you like. It's just threaten everyone and so needs, like.

cares what's going to happen. The base speakers on the side really yeah .

SONY is like we're put r gb in the base speakers also called the ul t powers sound now and that's our business.

It's good .

support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A, A. I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Hey, it's lee from decoder with the poop. We spend a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why do they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech can hire away cofounder? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on decoder with me lip presented by strike. You can listen to decoder wherever you get your podcast.