Meta's AI headset future — and that X interview at Code
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Walk over the verge cast flagship podcast of surprise interviews. I'm a friendly appears. I didn't tell anyone we were doing this podcast.

We're just here. We're podcasting me. I tell us here. I knew. I welcome back. Hi.

i'm on the show that people have been very computers. I was just doing the code conference. And what I said, David, right before he started, i've hosted enough things.

So David, can you just drive this? I just think back and being a guest. Yeah, that seems nice. Every people bring you M A EMS IT seems nice.

You know, I like this for you. You've moved, you've done code. You've get to like be a person now is very exciting.

Yeah, just really blind reacting to think this episode of the vercheres. In many ways, the entire theme is nei react.

This episode can be very funk because the first half of stuff that you know about, the second half of stuff you don't know anything about. It's going to be great. Alex crease is here. Hi alex.

I didn't know I was doing this podcast until about five minutes ago. I'm very excited to be here.

I knocked on both of your doors and I said, it's podcast time here.

Okay, put lots of pants for here. Let's go.

We will not talk about this week meta connect was this week we got a bunch of news about A I all kinds of stuff going on new ray pie, which we exit macos sono is this week we have .

more I just bought A S rapide four. I did you can do IT but like it'll be fine. IT was was really cheap.

And yeah as I like smart home sensor.

whatever of the forward like you immediately guess .

I was using IT yeah I listen, you just tell is not unclear. We have big trials going on all over the place. We're going to talk a little bit about those today, and we're going to talk a bunch about those next week.

Blessed with code. Code was that we've been working up to code for months. There was a time going on.

We book to time guys. We talked to ton of people. I got really weird right at the end.

You like you co host to this thing. Gratulations do you made IT through? You're back.

See you. I went really well. Should we start at the end? Can we start anywhere other than Linda?

Look, here is my goal. That code. This is how I booked everybody. I know everybody thinks about cara when I think of her, because Carry is cara and SHE is run the conference really well for the past couple years. The conference is I started going to is a little baby that changed my career around were hosted by wolf in cara, right?

All the the things Steve jobs on stage at code, Steve jobs and bill gates on stage at which by the way, has IT like a law and drama behind IT that's well and like I understand, like it's both of them and I need to attract anything from like cara, but there's a what component there. And like i'm on that coaching tree, just be really clear, like what was momentary, he we did the podcast together. He was on our stuff like there's just a piece of that, that I was thinking about a lot is really like doing the conference and like making the conference, which is very chAllenging.

And again, and they Carry an amazing job with that. That's a high standard to about two. I'm not trying to track from. I'm just saying everyone thinks about that. And I was thinking about the before that.

And what I really wanted on stage was to be a product reviewer was to talk about products, right, the world side of the equation. And we put a lot of products and that say, I am like a very product of that, right? Dobe launch show shop for the web might creegan from artifact and launched what is effectively a twitter competitor. There's a much we can get to all that, but that's like the part of code that I you know there's a lot of drama. But if you actually look at our conference and you look at how much we talked to a NVIDIA eight one hundred GPS on stage, like we made a tech conference, like a tech conference.

and that's pretty cool. And we got a true detective trailer and .

we had a true detective. Yeah, there is a lot going on at this conference. And then there is like one little bit of chaos, which I will happily talk.

We should that first because that continues to be the thing on a lot of people's minds right now, partly because of what lindy accurate of x talked about on stage and partly because of just the, I don't know, the scenery around IT the interview you can watch and fall on our youtube channel or on the decoder podcast I listen to, uh, while walking my son in a stroller this morning.

which is a deeply weird, oh my, your son is a supervillain. Now that's an origin the like cognitive .

distant of that was a very strange forty five minutes.

When I was a we lab, I heard the sounds of windy yaki o eminent for my father's had. And now now I have to destroy humanity to save IT.

Uh, you can go listen, the interview is really interesting, but they are like the way the interview happened seem to be as bigger thing as anything because your rah, who used to be what .

was his job.

He was a sort of surprise guest early about a lot of the things that twitter has struggled with over the years. I don't think he broke a huge amount of new ground in terms of like problems we've known about on that platform for a very long time. But then Linda was sort of forced to answer for a lot of those in a way that SHE didn't seem super set to .

be out the answering for, yeah, look, when did cheat up SHE did we can make a lot of excuses like you is like a very convenient excuse, and that's great. SHE sucked. Like what you want to.

I interview a lot of CEO all the time. You can go, listen, you know, we don't shy away from hard questions. You know what you can get with care? sure.

right? Like you did that up. Like like I can talk about the set up there. I just don't want to give her the out. I think if you're the CEO of major company that is the global times square, you'd Better be ready. You should at least .

have some numbers, I would say, about how well you're doing instead of SHE spent a lot of time not answering questions about how, whether are you doing and instead talking about her feelings about how whether are doing, which we've earned over the years, is when you should be really alarmed .

about how well something is doing. You only get to the set up. I don't for one second what anyone walk away from this, thinking that that set up for the chaos of the older, whatever the surprise of IT should have, that isn't excuse. There are lots of choices you can make if you want to be. You could sugar just walked away and SHE might have, right? But he chose to be on this stage, and all he had to say, he is still not want SHE wanted to be in that state, which is a bad piece of problem so we just like said so as when chess listeners know, uh, one of our star guests was supposed to gmc area bear and SHE drop out because the strike and make a lot of fun the good stage, right?

So know there is like a last minute scramble LED a place to get with people paid at ten the conference so when the so we we book the sea of revision are just current SHE was great and he was like the one, the one replacement and we can I tried so hard to make him talk about what cyberia we can think like that, but that sort of one to want to replay them. But everyone was like working hard to replace him, uh, including caret, right, who had no obligations. This conference, really, but SHE did IT.

So he was going to a interview john on IT, and I was going to like the care comedy show in middle thing to get Carry back and sage, but then he ask you to do IT. And he also in the history of code. In code is unlike every other conference, every other conference.

And David has worked a lot of media companies. Every other conference gets corrupted by advertising. Her sales respond like the history of code. Before that, the all things d conference, like one Carry, like we're doing or whatever you want and you can show up here and you'd had the capital to do IT. And this is like a again, like these are people that I ve worked with and around.

Who are my seniors, me going to their conference when I was like a twelve dollars, a post reporter engaged like that stuff is all in my brain like i'm taking over this legacy. So our conference is the same, right? We invite people.

We say we have a lot of conversations about, you know it's a shot like to me in another person there's pret calls and read like chat about what they want to say and what I want to say, but they don't get the questions ahead time. In particular, the most important part of code is audience questions, which Linda refused to take. And there's just an element of chaos, like journalistic chaos that makes code, code. It's unlike any other conference for those reasons. And I have texts in my pocket from work before the show and after the show are reminding me that that is what his conference is all about and what careers conference is all about.

Yeah yeah. He always used to say, the thing that we do here is journalism.

live journalist. That's the thing that and they both said, IT, just again, I just coming back to the foundations of code. So whatever we are all trying to fill in for, mary bera put on a good show and make you good and so care as that he was going to do IT, and that's great.

Like, fine. And so in london knew this information, right? Like there is a lot of conservation about what you would drop out or not, we should tell IT. Like, obviously so Carry ozer texter SHE knew, he knew the entire day and basically we spent the day being like, SHE gona show up or not I could use maybe he went, that will be its own news SHE showed up so that that's like the whole back story yeah and like.

I think the the back story of that and the interviewer sort of two different things, and the interview itself, actually, for all of the drama around IT, is not that interesting. Like Julia born did a really good job of trying to get her to say something interesting and revelatory about what's going .

on at x can I can I just say Julia? Julia is incredible. And like watching Julia work up close was like, as A O I, A long way to go.

Like that's really how I feel like, oh, i've got a long way to go. SHE is overprepared SHE knows her ship cold. He knows everybody. There is one thing, you know, when you're like near someone for a long time, like watching them work, you like to notice things about them when Julia is in the middle interview and he knows that SHE has IT SHE smiles like like me, you didn't come through on T, V, but like in person as like, oh, I can see that he has IT was incredible.

It's like the power hands like I I have a good hand .

tell yeah it's like the tiny st. Little tale and she's like, i'm holding a knife. It's great.

All that's trate the london interview was pure chaos, right? And because of all, because Linda had decided, I think inaccurately, inappropriately, decided that he could blame all of her problems on you should get going back to IT, you know? And that's like a sympathetic position. I understand why you like, I just mad everyone this room care about, but he knew. But if you watched Julia, all of her like cable news anchor training, she's like, I am moving on like i'm not going to let you do this that part of IT if you're like a journalist and d go back on the interview, you don't pay tension to Linda, pay attention to Julia, and is actually just revolving tory like again, I walked away thinking, I ve had a lot to learn. I have a lot to learn about how .

just the ability to constantly say, can I finish my question is like a real is a real skill to do in front a lot of people for it's very impressive.

right? There's a room full of people, some of whom are not on any one side, right? They're just like there for the train rap.

Yes, some of them are there in a very sympathetic Linda, and some of whom are there in the very thing that like whatever IT or mad twitter, whatever IT is in, like the tension in that room was out of control. And so for Julia to state, locked in and focused on, I am going to ask the questions again. I watched that side of IT because that is incredible.

Yeah it's like hard questions about a half way through SHE kind of manages to get Linda off of blaming you all for all of her responses which was like you like the first half of IT SHE makes a lot of reMarks yeah about like that no one knew he was here today.

Yeah, like ever, I promise. You know, like we are. So he always was on the schedule.

right?

He was like listed publicly on the schedule. We objected the other fifty times because we are moving the things because you you know Linda had first insisted on being last SHE when I clop great, and then SHE was like, I know I want to go you and SHE switched actually, like, actually the schedule was moving all it's like there none of this was a secret, in fact. Okay, more of IT should have been a secret.

Yeah, alex, you you and I have both watched in interview since the full thing I posted. Did you take anything of like substance away from IT about x the company or platform?

I took a lot about IT from the hostility towards journalism that I saw. And I like that was the main thing I took away was we've seen that thread of hostility from the company since elon took over and saw IT very apparently on stage and knowing now that like SHE knew because you watched initially you're like, oh, you just found out yeah probably be that piece on stage too like now if you .

knew the whole day and boy, not a taking him about you all the goal was great and he's very compelling and he knows a lot of ship about trust safety. There is no content in his interview that he had not shared before.

right, right? The things he was saying, with things he said quite often about the company .

that he is in the neural times. But by the way, if if you want like a slightly more produced version of the oil interview, you can go listen to an episode of this american life that he did with casey newton. again.

He is very compelling. I'm glad he was on stage. And god, that audience, which is a very powerful, influential audience like heard IT, I think that's important. But if you're Linda, there was nothing that you were reacting to, that you had you had an already reacting to.

right? IT was just like a very familiar like you see this kind of hostility sometimes from people who who don't want to give you the answers and they they have their narrative and they really don't, anna, deviate from that area. And that just seem to be the case here.

And as like OK, i'm not. Could I get necessarily something substantial from Linda? But I thought I was a very revealing interview, even wasn't like A.

B SUV is specific term for revealing nothing for like the substance of something to be nothing.

Press reis, no, I think, I mean, to me, even the things that he said, and this is the thing that was really sucked to me about the interview, is even the things that SHE said didn't seem like they were true. Like SHE named, uh, I think the number was five hundred and forty million monthly actives users. And he said that are not monthly active users, just users.

So whatever that means, he said that number twice. So i'm inclined to believe that is actually a number. But then he said he said, h Julia asked about how many daily active users x has, which is actually really important number, right? Like there are a million x onal things saying x is not doing well, right? Like there are engaging matrix that seem to be down that are all reported by third parties so that.

that people on the platform or experiencing right.

it's way down on the APP store like all of the vibes are bad, but the number of people who log into twitter every day is like IT, potentially the most important number. And I don't believe for one second that SHE doesn't know that number to like the decision place and instead he gets happen as like, oh, it's between two hundred and two hundred and fifty million people every day and Julie followed up by saying that IT was two hundred and thirty seven million when yon must took IT over and then Linda said at one point two twenty five. And there's just like you don't have to tell anybody you're a pride company owned by one dude at one point.

SHE pulled out her phone to as though he was going to check the number and then did not, and then shows the phone of the audience and was just her home screen.

And a lot of sleuthing has showed that x was not on her home screen.

It's a very confusing situation.

And we just got a report this week about most of the big companies daily, like daily active users. And IT was so far from that, I could think twitter was like fifty six million twitter.

Twitter is always again. And i've said this many times, and I will say you again now very clearly for everyone to hear me criticism of of twitter or excess current leadership is in no way praise for the previous administration. They were bad.

And actually, one of the most interesting things about IT is you can make an argument that twitter is so hard to run. IT is such a mess that that version of bad was the only way to be like they had entered a city state of horrible ness. But they weren't growing. They weren't making any money. They this is why they saw that elon ted an inflated share Price because its board of directors had come essentially come to the conclusion that nothing they could do would ever bring the company to that share Price on their own. That is like if you look at the mirror, like like every kid wakes up one day and like realizes like I am not going to pass OK, like i'm just not going to be a doctor you like maybe that was just me but like, you know there's like those moments in your life or like I had Better give .

up mean sports like twitter .

as a company was like we're never gona hit forty four dollars a share and they sold IT to you and like I get I just want to say like criticism of this administration is praise that does not imply that they were they were doing horrible job such that they quit just thought out they just quit. They couldn't figure out I had do on in in a solar land because he had showed up like a dumb y to buy IT. But it's not that he's now put in place a team that will do a Better job. He's put in place a team a CEO who doesn't appear to know what's going on.

Yeah I think to meet like the worst look for Linda in this entire interview, which is a fairly high bar in this particular interview, was when Julia asked about uh, mosques tweet about going to a fully subscription model where everyone using twitter would have to pay for twitter. And I phrasing, but Linda is basically like, well, SHE first asked to repeat the question, which was bizarre, was very simple question.

No, I don't see. I don't think that was bizarre. I like everybody is like, oh, SHE didn't know the answer.

Oh, sure was a total fillibuster .

SHE was shared up. Phillips, like, like, let's give her a little, a little like short man of that. At least he he was doing something wasn't but .

then july reaches the question and SHE says, I think he says, did he say that's what we're doing or that's what he's thinking about? And then Julia said, yes. He said that the plan, so at this boy is now abundantly clear that Linda doesn't know what's going on and and then he says the essentially in response to the other question, SHE says, we talk about everything and then has no more response. So I don't know how I just want to come out of that. Yeah, not thinking that SHE didn't know this was a thing.

I came out of that thinking SHE was fill of busty and trying to make fun of Julia for asking the question at all, like the way he looked to the audience after she's like, did he say that? And that's what I want to know, like me, I there SHE .

okay being in the room when I don't know, I don't know. I was in that room all day. And I would just say the the room was packed, know a lot of things if you ever go to conference, like the composition of the room changes over the because people like networking doing that.

Whatever I like to, we're calls what I like. This was packed. And when they got a lot of cheers.

which like big cheers.

limit king with an outer rush.

like like the apple employees you hear cheering at an apple event, this is like a small version of that.

Yeah, yeah, there was just, there is an element in there that was weird. And I will say this at the end. Julia got a standing ovation. This is a real thing that happened at the end of code.

right?

He deserved IT. The conference ends, Linda leaves casing. I walk back on stage. I litter that holy shit. And then I said, Julia born in everyone and and Julie got a standing ovation from that crowd. So, you know, when I say the composition room was IT was up, but the people who were noises at the beginning more like the link people, yeah. And so I think he thought the room was a lot warmer to her and might be the SHE .

play to the and I think SHE had the sense .

of the room really was like on her side. So you keep looking in the room is so everyone agreed with her that this was bullshit yeah. And that was not the case in the one example of that, which was absolutely the funniest thing that i've ever seen happen at code.

And i've been i've been going to conference for a decade, SHE said, who wouldn't want elon musk by their side running product? And there's just like people's like burst in the land. These are raising their hands because is a room full of product people.

But what did I say the beginning? What did I want code to be? I want to the go to be about products.

Who did we invite? Who did we put on the stage? Who did they bring? Product people. And they were like, no, Angela was like razer hand.

like every I was like.

I cannot believe. Like, you don't know. Like you don't know, this is a simple of product.

People was really .

that's enough of that.

I can talk with that.

which is precisely well enough of that.

Let this is why I was like, I need to be the guess. Not everybody should go.

It's worth watching the whole interview. You're going to get three minute a in your whole body is going to start to feel IT because IT is very uncomfortable.

Imagine being in the room.

It's like the first half of never been kissed, which is the most excruciating movie.

Then just to make IT about me for one second, very important. Imagine, like, I have to go back out on the stage.

Afro, yeah. Was holly shit a rehearsed line? Had you? Like, step back stage going you shit ship. Yeah.

that's on the teleprompter.

Actually we're just like holding hans. Like what are we you going to do?

That's great. But yeah, everybody will put in the show that you go logic, go listen to IT. It's it's really interesting, but just play through some of the actual like interesting products of that happen.

Yes, to me, the getting A I thing was one of the most interesting pieces of the hall show. Do you want you want to just explain a little bit about that conversation? And we got from crag Peters to the gtc, yeah, three.

two conversations back to back that I really wanted to make sure we had back to back. IT was microcar cvs out, who was wonderful. And the CEO of getty cry Peters, who is firecracker.

SHE wouldn't think for the getty. C. E. O.

but like, good. Yeah, but he he's a creative. Like he made you managers thousands of photographers. Like, once you like, put that, oh, I get IT, you know so getting is suing stability AI, which makes stable of fusion. And the the losses is what you think it's whether training on copy ated images is fair use.

Stable 的 fusion is like some I don't I don't think think he does this anymore， but like for a while would produce the getty water mark in A I generated images and here he is, like, come on, right? So you know, everyone thinks that stability is kind of a chaotic company. They refused to come on, say, your code.

We had invited them to respond to crayon and they said, no, says a lot. But you know, craggs entire theses was like, you can build A I tools that don't step on other people's property. And in fact, we have.

And so you know they they shot off their brand new product stuff, c code. They shot off their brand new a image generator. And we like, had fun using on stage.

But his argument was, this industry is stepping all over creatives. And like, what getty makes is important to history. And we need to like protect IT, and we need to build business models to protect IT.

Instead, I was like racing headlong into devaluing and even further. And the reason I said I put the interview back to back is because my Kevin Scott is an author. He's an artist.

He's a maker. He is a reception. He's great. He can start anything. Michael has a ten billion dollar bet on IT being fair use with OpenAIr, right? Like, that's crazy. And so cabin's like a lot of people think this is very use.

And I was like, not everyone and right, that crack, which 的 时候 一口气 listen to two conversations back to all going up the coder fee and know the for youtube。 But that was the dynamic that I really put in front of. Everybody like the industry has not figured out this huge problem at the center of AI.

And we had and we have Warner music CEO Robert council on sage is a former head of business at youtube. Like i'm not on the side of the music industry very often. I'm not on the side of big copyright very often. But you see this dynamic and actually like shuffles the deck little bit in the getty in conversation in particular, uh, I think really brought is the fork because they are making some of the technology to they want to show you can make the technology the right way.

That bit that he showed where he was basically like we're in this race with you know OpenAI and anthropic and google, where everybody he's trying to do the biggest possible thing, right? Like everybody drags about like the number of fraud ters in their model and how big the training set is.

It's like everything is supposed to be the dragani all purpose thing for everybody, for everything forever like A I is just windows now, right? Like it's huge. And then I thought I that was just why I thought cragin they get this up is so interesting because like we can take this smaller corporations of data that is Better and we can actually make IT work just as well, but more successfully for everyone involved. And I just think that's very cool. And then somehow inside of that.

there's one more piece, one more turn is super interesting there. And somehow we will compensate the artists whose work is in the training data. And I was like, how and he was like, we just start making that .

right yeah he was very honest about like, we will may have half the answers yeah .

yeah but he is like, right? We're basically doing unpopularity like if if you are but it's like sort the way spotify works. So this was too we z to get in on the code stage. The answer is like will look at the proportion of images inside of the training data that people call up more often in the wider world of getty.

And then when people paid to generate images will do that fractions of a penny based on that sort of like underlying ranking, which is like IT is more like how spottin y works than anything. But IT is not some incredible complicated algorithm about what training pixel were put. It's more like what's popular, you get more money and it's and like they need to refine that.

The other one, alex, you and I watch casey boys together. What beginning from casey, we should always runs. H is like a very important person.

This happened right after the end of the writer strike. So we had like new information. Peer copca interviewed him. They talk a little IT about that, a little a bit about some mother stuff like we get from casey that you .

thought was interesting. We got the true detective season for trailer is apparently very excited. I think I was like texting you like this is my personality for the next four months yeah I think we just got his his reinforcement of David s loves kind of way of thinking out there, right? Like he was talking a lot about how the the cable bundle was back and IT was gonna be on on the streaming services and that like he felt that that was good and and he wants to see that more.

And and then they talked a lot about this new show, naked attraction that's on a bo max, which was like sister law had just text to be the night before about IT. And I heard about that. I was like, yes, I know what he's talking about because I just google LED this.

And so he was kind of like defending the way that they're choosing what they put on HBO and what they what they share is HBO VS max versus cartoon network. This is all hg TV and all of these other channels that are now part of of the larger streaming ecosystem. And yeah, and I was really, really just like reinforcement of David as was kind of way of thinking and that was nice like I was interesting to see that you're kind like, well, how does how does someone like boys think about IT? And apparently very similarly.

I don't know what would you take a five that .

I think casey blues is maybe one of the most powerful people they want to a brother, his discovery, and he knows IT and David as love, knows IT and know the stuff about h rio versus max. Like he was just very calm, comfortable with that. I case x age.

Like do you want me ask you some more questions about asia? Max main, but his thesis, his argument was that hv o by itself, he's never been a successful business in the history of HBO. Even when if you think about people paying for HBO directly, he's like people had a cable bundle and they would pay us extra money for HBO and we don't ride along with that cable under that has never been a successful is for us.

Is that a red con? Maybe you know like a maybe yeah but IT is historical, true. And you know there's a new owner of the company and that is his thesis.

That's very much as as of things like what people want is made of defiance and then sometimes they got treated effective. It's not the other way around. And that is uh, I think probably for a chest, listeners don't feel that way. But have you ever been to america?

I like I think that I always say I do think that's true, right? Like like most people are watching the reason you like HBO and the reason you like those things that like sunday night you go watch HBO, you were probably weren't watching HBO every single the night of the week when you were watching T V channels. I think you could have been. But like that was A. Very small population of folks and they could kind of be insufficient.

What are the dominant t like from the golden age of television in the bundle? It's it's a bunch of network TV. So it's it's friends, it's the office, right? Like and they're still dominant, which is crazy.

So there is that he's not a lot about uh, H P O shows now appear in netflix again and he was like, look in, you know the brass ring used to be syndication and we need to go back there. And we went through this weird period ever when is going to build their own middle oppoi. And we've like we've realized like that sound away. And I like I always do that .

wasn't no once told netflix though.

right? Well, but netflix is a different visit. The only one that's successful, right? They they fired like just can in blast of venture capital money into building their mode and everyone else try to do IT and like destroyed the industry along the way.

Casey didn't talk about the strike, by the way, speaking your costs going up and Peter ask them like, is the resolution of the strike and maybe the sex track going to bring your costs up because your labor poster higher? And he was like, no, which I think if I was the her skills t the screen actor skills, I would be like, yeah, we told you so, but I hear all the discovery. Our staff is united.

Zed, by the W G A E. Alex is in the W G A E. We contests as one of our investors. Lda arena doesn't like me very much.

We made an ethnic show.

We made an netflix c show on the E, P of an netflix show. Someone isn't asus many times. That show was not because it's seminary. IT was not. What what do you want for me?

Like to the good conference.

I'm so tired, right?

Let's we're good. I want to talk more about the write shack are going to get to that in little bit because IT ended in in some really interesting ways. We're going to talk about that. Let's do two more just ultra fast things about code and then get out here first. Me, I I am going to give you sixty five seconds and no longer to talk about the monarch tracor CEO that you had on stage ready code.

The most important interview to the code was with providing comment's of the sea of monetary. Or I opened that interview by saying the entire human species is elderly, dependent on tractors. And I saw jack, like our deputy ke, just start cracking like only lize on his portion again.

Ah it's true. It's a fact provine just like blue the crowd away by talking about his tractor that's an evy tractor as a full sensor sweet that built IT to the ultra modulate. All the the century is in the roof, the tracor, which is just a handful of bolts in a couple of cables for power and data.

And he's like, that is what we're going upgrade like over time. We'll in europe s other people have europe or there are the open ecosystem compared to john deer, their partner with case cases, making tractors using their technology. Go watch IT. He's like we're of the android. Like john deer, the iphone closed for paraty harder service where media ecosystem in a charter school.

his line was we're becoming the android of agriculture, which is just an unbelieving cool and verging sents.

And I will tell you this, I talked a lot about the coders room. They loved him by the end of this. They're like attractors of the shape. Like one person was like, i'm going to buy a tractor for my ventured.

which is the code. Audience, yeah, I did. I did a conference one time and basically just introduced a man and asked him, so three, three printing houses, huh? And he talked for, like, twenty uninterrupted minutes about all the cool things you can do, what you continue to print, concrete houses.

And IT was the most excited room i've ever been. Like, people love this stuff. It's awesome. The world runs on IT agree.

Yeah technology and products, i'm telling you that's that's what codes all that.

It's the stuff. And then the other one was, uh, artifact, my trigger, which I think I continue think artifact is interesting, but it's like a little kind of tiny thing. But they just launched twitter. I could right? My crit was just like .

we're doing twitter to see co founder, a cofounder of instagram, watches instagram.

So god.

I know what you is like. Cragg's great. He was literally coating artifact, a tiny company. He is literally shipping code and Green room that's and he was like, this is so much Better than being to big up to me so that I was really fun um yeah, you go look at its twitter, right? It's post only the only real differences you have to have a photo for some reason, which a lot of instagram DNA coming through.

But know micro gar has told me, Kevin sister has told me, is I always launched artifact with the goal of being something much bigger, with the goal of creating a much bigger corpus machine learning data and doing more interesting things of IT. And you can see they started with its links on the web. It's a recommendation engine for red pages to you can share links and you can just share your own content, and we will recommend that to you.

And they are building they're building a looking in AI for social network. It's cool in like, again, what what what am I hammering home here? Yes, there's the chaos.

There is a lot of product conversation, a code like an awful lot of what products are building. Why are we building them? What are the dependencies on NVIDIA, on GPU, on other stuff s that we need to overcome in order to be products. And to me, mike was like the the pinna of that moment because he was literally building the product in the Green room .

before he walked out stage. He was great. And then okay, last one, you did not successfully get R S.

Carried the c of revision to talk show about the cybernetic. But I would say he made fairly clear that he thinks the cyber truck is stupid. Would you agree with that assessment?

Yeah, you know, there is the code name of decoder, new universal media training. Can I fight you to a draw? And like, I usually get to a draw, I think sometimes I win.

And that's and then the subject to you get to trouble exactly.

Sometimes I win too much onesta, but it's like fat. It's a game and that's why CEO come to do IT because they're all type and it's it's a game that set up to to be win able like not to be unfair. But you know, you know the questions are coming. And the reason i'm going all that up is sometimes I can see the media training. And the most devastating answer you can give inside of the media training is what that's a .

choice as allowable answers go, that is the most damning.

right? It's like, yeah, people are free to make math choice. We'll see what the .

market to shade like. It's a really blessed heart kind of response. yes. yeah.

It's if you know what that means, you like the one piece of news that inside of there that was important. And I I hope sort of the E V. Community caught this. I asked him about the deal terms to use the tesla charger because vans using ncs two and he said, everyone thinks there's some like complicated data agreement.

There's these conspiracy theories out there, and there is not there is an agreement to use a charger and there is agreement to give us access to their network, and that's IT. So I don't know what it's like for everybody else, but he is like, like everyone else, we thought the charger is Better to use that bite. Administration did its thing. It's like some tax scheme that requires them to basically open up their network and then everyone rushed in tears to charge in the network because the conditions were there for us to go make a deal. Are not honored terms yeah.

and IT was good up. There is a ton of goods, stuff coming out. We're going to a lot more to be on the youtube. Shame a little be on podcasts all over the network.

I did ask him about the the single wiper.

Yes.

is that very said plus your heart?

There was I was the second. It's a choice. I was like, do you think this trials going to stroke your business is like, thank you. That was like, what about one big wiper? And he is like, many people have they to sit like it's .

you can have as many way perses you want, you want, all right? We need to take a break and then we're going to come and alex are going to tell the life about everything else that happens week.

Good back.

Hey, islam, from decoder with neither to we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing the special series diving into summer, the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech can hire away cofounder? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems you'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the litel presented by strike. You can listen to the coder, whatever you get your podcast some tag presents the ins and out of caring for your home out uncertainty, self debt, stressing about not knowing where .

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Right, we're back. Let's get to the other news of the week, alex. I'm going to give you the choice. Do you want to do the writer strike first? Or do you want to do medical net first?

5， i kind of want to do mea connect first. I think both are really important, but I want to talk about some get IT.

Let's do meter, three big things from medical net, big annual hardware vent, the questi had set, the new smart glasses and the just weird slew of air stuff. Let's work with the headset.

You don't want to start with tea pain.

Not i'm not ready tea pain. I feel like a minute before we get A T pain. And snoop dog and twin wade pretending to be not twin wade.

And I don't understand when any of that actually, you know what? Let's to do that right now. Man.

I knew IT. I knew IT. It's like, do you want tom brady to us not being tom brady?

I don't. Yeah, alex, we you just explain what matter is doing with all these chapters?

Ts, well, they assume you don't have any friends and that you did artificial intelligence to be chat like your friend. Basically, it's bunch of chat bots, but the chat bots are designed to look and sound like famous people. So there's like a snoop dog dungeon master that that he tried to demo on stage.

IT didn't work. That was kind of unfortunate that basically the justify right like these chat bots are meant to just replicate people and build these like enhance those para social relationships. Already have a celebrities, and I really, really, really, really encourage you to make more friends.

Let me, let me offer you the flip let me offer you the flip of this says reading cases newsletter last night and he was writing about the new version ChatGPT which actually speak to you he can play these characters.

It's multi model what I um and he had this example in here which I had not really considered but he's like a teenager Young trans teenager wrote into hard work and was like I get affirmations every every from GPT I gets the thing that I talk to on this like right and and that's an earlier version so there's ah in his whole news sliter basically like we're on the cusp of the being these relationships being real and like there's all the little little valley pages of the endless conversation of the movie here, all that stuff is in there. But he is like there's something here that is worth paying attention to and that kind unlocked my brain when I was reading IT. I don't know that I want to be talking to tea pain about you like, but there's something in there what you just described.

this kind of the story of community on the internet since the beginning of the internet, right?

Actually, I want to take this back. I want to be talking to two ten now that i'm very tired, but I just want to be actual tea ping, tea ping rules like I just there's no, you should watch this post, please.

Yeah no, T, P, N is great. But no, I think the the question of like where is your community on the web is a really interesting and important one. And is one people talking about for twenty five years, right? Like you go back far enough and there were people who were like, oh, these kids are talking to other people online, that's bad.

And we've like come to realize that that's like those relationships are real and you that stuff is real. And then IT turns again once it's A I thing. And I think that changes the calculus a little bit. But there are versions of that that are good, valuable and useful. I just think this thing matter is trying to do, which is not like build tools that are good and useful and sort of human bt like make a thing that looks like rain wade, that will like help me like snoop dog can be the dm for my don and dragon's games or were like random celebrities will help me look like that to me feels like the uncanny value of all of this where it's just like we're not anywhere with that to me yeah.

I think what left to me kind of like cold on IT because I do think for right now i'm trying to play dungeons and dragons for the very first time ever and apparently is very hard to get about people ordinated in a room. So like apparently that snoop dog thing is actually really, really good if you played dungeons and dragons, that seems like a really compelling thing. But IT just felt a lot like when alex a started doing the voices IT IT feels like like they just hit me that same way of like this feels like the technologies is not ready yet. So we're having to put like a celebrity layer on top of IT to get you.

And well, this is like the anything like we launch threads. Here's a bunches of celebrities and they're been backing into the the fund real functionality that will make IT successful. Not I think that this too yeah, but it's what you want is I want to talk to time, brady.

I don't think anyone's ready, let alone time radie. If like, you can just talk to me when I really and that's dangerous if you are celebrity in a lot of ways like whatever, but hey, come play a character and give life to a character that you can talk to you with some personalia. I think that's very safe first, that is just playing or all right.

to make us credit like there's a there's like big k pop groups that already do this where you go talk to an AI and it's it's like programmed to kind of be like the cap pop start you like. So so it's out there. This stuff exists already.

K pop is always on the bleeding edge of being really weird.

Also, alex, if you just spoke a pop as A I pop into existence, i'm going .

to be A I .

pop is coming A I go watch. We have IT on our side.

It's a yes and interea chatbot that they're putting out and putting into basically all of their messaging platforms. You'll able to get IT everywhere you use meta products and essentially ChatGPT like they're just turning on ChatGPT .

inside of meta theyve turned.

This is their own more, yes. But it's like functions is the same.

like the goal is think it's Better.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if it's Better. I don't know it's Better either.

We heard some people say that is we've had some people say IT as we'll just to find out.

yes yeah yeah. And there big on lama, which is their large english model like there's this three headed triangle like amazon just made this speak investment in anthropic. They're going to duce some really interesting stuff over time. Uh, microsoft OpenAI r obviously, together, google is doing its own thing, and now meta is doing the same thing. And like this race is getting real and really expensive and really high stakes for all four of these companies fast.

And the art generation, too. It's just really like it's gonna stickers where you can just make something up and do that. And that i'm actually very excited about because like the possibility for attack link, my friends, is extraordinary ly high. When I can just make A, I generate horrible art for me.

Where can I say some my deeply divert chesty thing with that?

No, what is a sicker?

And what the reason that stickers that means and reaction gifts and all that stuff is powerful is because they have shared meaning. Yes, right? So like you, you're like, here's a gift and like he means something that Carries a whole layers and layers of meaning when you share with a friend in response to the else, i'm going to AI generate some stuff for you at the ovo like over over again does not Carry that me you .

kids say that, but if you make a horrible enough one IT .

can be in being not true. It's just like I don't want there's a part of this words like endlessly customizing everything actually do tracks from how we communicate .

to res factors, the communication well.

it's just like it's it's a dump level. It's like now I had to explain on my jokes to you, but I made up a joke. And I explain that you, instead of repeating a briefing, anything exists is I know I know we got some phs in our audience were full of this information.

Our cofounder and friend, deeper bone deep into semiotics like the meaning of this is IT. It's like right in there. It's like what if the AI is making up way through to communicate that the person on the other end has no context for? Yeah but like it's stickers like IT, it's fine people in these that's what i'm trying to get that is like if you if you don't get a free ride on the history of meaning.

like the I mean, there's a big giant like a huge cultural and the right everything becoming endlessly personalized versus we need things that everyone understands in order to communicate about them, which is why the office is so useful. I realize most of the screen shots in on my phone are gifts from the office that I just use for infinite purposes all the time. There's a wire you the way that you are a gift that I just use fifty times a day. And people understand that it's great. It's very helpful.

Do you know those people whose entire personality this is movie quotes? Yeah like they're not going to be after generating stickers.

They're dying breed because we don't share that could like everybody watches their own things now so that shared culture is is dying down to Barbie movie, which is great. Barbie movie is wonderful. But like fewer places.

you say people don't run .

around cooling up harder to each other.

What's become I just started sending that to the verge staff every day.

love. IT. Alex, tell me about the history. Tell me I about the quest. Ry, we've been wondering about the thing. We kind of knew what is cool .

IT looks bananas, like I was looking at the photo anywhere. The signals like out of.

I love IT like we were talking about this in in slack the other day. And people like, I hate IT IT looks alien. And i'm like, that's exactly why I love IT because IT looks kind of alien and it's it's got these three like little ovals on the front and they look kind of like the iphone ten camera. Moto, so IT looks like they slapped three of those on there, which feels really like old fashion and kind of, oh, i've seen that before.

But then so this is in the service of room tracking of passing.

It's five hundred dollars. It's got dull twenty sixty four by twenty two O A pixel. So it's much higher resolution than in the previous one, which was only eighteen thirty two by nineteen twenty, like it's going to be a little sharper and it's got the the second generation of the snapdragon exr tube processor IT.

And that's where a lot of the big stuff changes. So I think like. Probably the most notable thing in the thing that that adi talked about in her hands on was that the graphics are Better on this thing, like it's, it's, it's, it's, things are sharper, the resolutions little higher. Shaan was very excited.

No one else is very reference because zero people but a quest pro. But I have what is IT Better than the quest or worse than the quest because .

quest pretty probable. Better.

The software .

is the hard H A. From a pure like display quality perspective, it's Better. It's actually it's the highest rest h including the quest pro. The the ongoing existence of the quest pro does not make any sense.

I so what we should note here is that L, C, in every soccer work on our site for the and I think yeah as the clicker od yeah .

so we just had a butch around ship up. But it's very clear that this is the one yeah that matter would like to sell you. I mean, occa kept saying, and even h android ts worth the CTO afterwards kept saying, this is the first mainstream mixed reality.

Heads up like that is their phrase right? They're coming after apple's vision pro in a really big way. They made a bunch of jokes about how he doesn't have a cable or a battery pack yeah um which is honestly like a really good burn of the vision pro.

It's also not thirty five hundred dollars. So that's good. But that is that is the pitch that they are making.

They're like this is the one. It's not finished. This is not where were ultimately headed. Ultimately where we're headed, I think I think is, is these smart glasses, which we should all stock about, but this is the one that is for regular humans. Now yeah, it's the end of this form factor.

right? Or the best diversion of this form factor.

we can go exactly. And I think they continue to struggle. Make the kids for why people would want this. Like a lot of what they talked about with video games, they have more games, they have Better games, stuff to do that then they occasionally just throw in you know meta quest for business, but don't really explain that. There's just like you can have IT if you want IT for business. That's that's all we know about that they talk a little bit about IT as an entertainment device, which I think is interesting like they show the same screen shot that everybody shows, which is just like you can watch instead of watching one NBA game, you can watch seven NBA games on virtual screens here. And that is like extremely my shit put, like I didn't get the sense that there is some sort of brand new life changing case for this IT just seems like between pass through Better screens and just sort of an overall Better experience of using that's great.

I just want be like going from the f 3GS， F four and getting right and display is.

oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I have a bunch of us got a demo of this. I mine was relatively short, but I still got to play a couple of games. And IT is I mean leaps and bounds Better than the quest to like the the past through is is not perfect. It's a little sort of it's a little sort of warped, like the floor was moving a little bit.

but it's Better than the pro.

Better than the pro, way Better than the quest two, which is like a black and White. And essentially IT doesn't actually work as pass through, not as good as the demo. I out of the vision of the vision pro, but that was super controlled.

Who knows what that i'll be like in real life? Uh, but this is a massive improvement over the question. Whether IT will make people who didn't care about heads, ads, care about headsets, to me is still the open question, right? Like that's what I don't know, but if you are a person who cares about headsets, dragani upgrade.

I kind of think IT didn't sell itself well enough. Like, like talking to add, talking to you, talking people who got to actually try. The thing was much more compelling them to me than watching the actual keynote about the product.

I think this is going to be true for every year. Has individed forever yeah and that's just .

very interesting to me because anty lake told me about IT. She's like, yeah, the passing is way, way. Wait Better and I was like, okay, I can't want IT just for that. That sounds really cool and then I don't see any of that on stage. And I like, well, i'm glad add told .

me he really is one of the great unsolved problems of VR is how to show someone what you're seeing in the VR in a way that looks at all compelling because options are either like show IT on the two screens once for each I which just doesn't make any sense anybody or you just show IT like a like slightly low res television. It's like this is me in anything anybody um and i've been hearing this from people in this space for like dinner a decade now that they're like when we put this on someone's head, they get IT yeah and until you put IT on someone to head IT is so hard to explain what IT is about IT that works.

The only things i've ever seen the you know people completely beat saber and they felt entire Green screen. And so like they they're doing like real life overlays. Yes, they never could do that. That's that's my feel. But the problems like so many things like sitting and using a computer like quest for business is like now you'll use excel and it's like this site.

yes, yeah very largest. The Price doesn't I think a .

big problem of is the Price doesn't help like one of the reasons the quest two was so compelling was really, well, I can get this for three hundred dollars when I was first announced, right? And they've now drop that Price back down to three hundred dollars after like a proof time of increasing the Price, little, little way of there. And that was really compelling.

Like I went out, bought IT the day I was announced because was like that Prices so low, I didn't get the three hundred dollars when I spent more money. But I was still like, wow, i'm getting such a deal. This is and then this one is still five hundred dollars. That's the same Price as A P, S, five or an x box.

Yeah this is very hard to justify an impulse purchase at Christmas the way that I think a lot of a quest tools that sold is sort of like what tech president and I buying the kids for a Christmas because I was like that the lower number.

And I think that's going to harm adoption because because of that fact that you have to put IT on, you have to try IT or you have to know somebody who has to really be compelled by IT or IT.

Actually, I think what makes IT even harder is a signal, a console generation, right? It's not P S four to P S five. A lot of people have question to because that would happen last Christmas and the Christmas before IT. Yeah and it's like ah just sitting on the shelf.

Although I don't know, I think this one is going to be a little bit tough because I think the the quest three is going to make the quest for a console generation because what it's going to do, like everybody gives them the next year building actually usable mixed reality stuff because for the first time, it's worth doing, like the past, yet stuff is good enough and the vision grow, right? And so we're now going to get to a point where there is an actual generation of stuff to do that takes advantage of this tech.

Where is right now? It's like a lot of the reason for the mix reality is and they even pitched this way so that like I can find my coffee cup or look at my phone without taking my head set up, which is using the bad reason to bioproblem. And so um there just hasn't they need the thing and that will come and IT can come now, which is really exciting. But I think it's going to make it's going to make the selling point for next year's model much easier. But I don't know how much IT does for like right now.

you think that we next year one or do you think to wait a few years? That's the problem is I don't think there there. I think they're still at console level, not at phone level in encouraging upgrade cycles.

And I think if they I can be released a new one next year, if he is gonna like wide, like, at what point do I actually invest in this very expensive thing that isn't always liability backwards compatible, that is like growing each year by these leaps and bounds? Shouldn't I just wait till next year? Shouldn't just wait till next year? Shouldn't I just wait for another Price drop? But I think they need to be a little more thoughtful about how they're marketing this thing in in pricing IT. But I still also kind of what one yeah .

yeah that's about, right and I think that's like the best catenary .

o for them yeah it's like Christmas. Somebody gives me like a little best bag of scar. I like .

someone wants to tell me find a bus and may be more IT IT.

Seems clear that what meta did here was say we have to stop building the best possible cheap thing and just build a thing that's really good and then charge what we have to. I think apple went the same route to like the end degree, but meta has been on this path and like snap has been doing this and others have been doing this for that. Like these things have to be cheap.

They have to be impulse bias. You have to be a little by them Christmas, and we're going to make them as good as we can theyll get Better and Better over time. And that has really worked because it's still not possible to make a really good one for that Price.

I don't have any reporting to back this up, but I would bet good money that this hardware is not going to be earth shattering. The py margin for metal. These things are expensive to build and hard to build. And I think meta was smart to say like this is the bar for what quality is, and we just have to charge what IT costs to build this and let let that get cheaper over time as opposed to like hoping quality goes up over time because that I just don't think has worked so far.

Yes IT excl about and this is the way we should talk about the heats that makes this point right. Like making this smaller and sheep er is actually very hard and he there's you can even watch that we watch the whole thing is great, but we have a tiktok of things like people are impressed by the pyramids but is actually small.

To be getting of his history channel show.

one more thing I, I, I want to bring up out of the heat interview. The head review is great. Market is super as super relaxed, talks a lot of building products. Actually relax about two things is building products he's like back and build mode he's like, this is what's great like the last few years i've needed to be like this first amendment scholar's statement en person, but like now building shit again and he can tell her and then he super lose when he talks .

about beating people up.

So is what loves IT just loves IT in the guy and that's like, great. It's like this. This is the most personality. But he loves like ema as a sport, not just like street, like think i'm very tired, but he's just another .

punching people on the street but .

he like talks about IT and he talks about how the skill in this but and like you can see his relaxed, like he's back in his zone, is supposed to senator we so ads you like and there's a lot of talking about the quest three and building that and they've learnt in other stuff there's not talking about building threads and how excited that to meet him and one more confirmation that they are definitely going to decentralized and federate threats, which I think is really yeah .

and he made the case you would hope he would make, which is that like we think that the future of social, we have to give people confidence that these things are going to be around. And it's a yes, mark, where have you been for twenty years? He's like we've .

thought about doing a facebook of faceshe. He is too complicated so you have to do IT from the beginning, which is like cool, you know.

and true like I think that's like rearchitects ting facebook for activity pub is probably not possible. Just yeah can we talk .

about the cruellest part of the Better connect was IT.

How ripped to mark sarver's was? I said IT, like three times as we were sitting watching the live stream. Like, I cannot believe how shred ed?

Yeah, like, I think we were always quietly lacking each other.

Just been like you wow.

But I was the glasses.

the glasses for something that I think hearing about them. I was the opposite of the questor. Somebody would tell me about the question and be, that sounds really, really cool. But i'd watch the demo be. And then this one, i'd watched them off for the glasses and like, and then they talk about the glasses is like, actually call like glasses.

I have been back in ourn million times. Smart glasses to me. Either I think that everyone should have immediately, or an objectively stupid idea that just should not exist. And I genuinely go between them ten times, and they .

convinced me their cool. Yeah, I do too, because I have to wear glasses. And I don't want to go, like, get new lenses for these three hundred dollar frames, which is probably the same Prices.

Most crimes anyway like that, Prices and that different. But they they were good looking. And then the woman that did the presentation form was like, had such good energy. SHE was so excited to be there and talk about these glasses that was like.

are they really awesome? They seem awesome.

And I think he was like the camera. I was just like the way the cameras were. The cameras much hired quality and IT has been previously. I don't think I I can't think of a practical use case for these glasses because they've ve got audio in.

So so you'll be able to hear stuff and you'll be able to like use your phone to ask you can ask your questions and the responses will pop up on your phone and that seems like kind of cool and moving towards that mix reality thing. And it's got the the cameras that will that will like stream to threads and stream to to instagram and do all that. That seems really, really cool. And I don't think I actually want to be that connected to other people. But at the same time, part of me was like, but do I so this is .

actually the exact tension that I have been feeling to n di. I've done wondering all week about you because I remember when you first had a kid, one of the things that you did pretty quickly was by a poin shoot camera, because you really like, I want to take a lot of pictures. I want to document a lot of stuff, but I don't want to have my phone in front of my face all the time for a lot of five of those reasons.

And that is the exact use case that all of these companies make for smart glasses, like there are kids in the demo, real for everything like you could have both hands. You can win your kid around whatever, but you you are less. There's not so much of a thing between you and especially not a thing that is otherwise trying to grab your tech.

There's one thing between you and your ID you're wearing sunglasses.

You can get .

in regular most prescription manses.

There's like there's there's one thing you .

can get transition lengths. My dad is transitions.

They're fine. Yeah, you're dad. And like every fourth writer who just got their first pair of glasses, I was that child, that boy was me. IT was not cool, my friend, everyone, someone please go to fourth grades across the country and tell these children this.

This is joice later that I will not tolerate. Sorry, dad.

I had an adult person try to help me to get transition glasses recently.

No, it's fine. Once you've like a achieved in life .

yeah you can have transact. That's what that was the case made to be there like, no, no, you can do that now you're a yeah .

it's like your children are the house. Your married, you've got a grand page. You like, yeah, just take a lot off road, just have sunglasses ready to go when you're in fourth grade. It's not just tell the just gray .

all the time, these look kids and gray lenses.

So we are ninety eighties and parts anyway. Yes, this is argument. The problem is the cameras any good? But my R X one hundred is a great camera.

That's why I bought IT. My iphone is an extremely complicated philosophical quanti of a camera. That's why I have IT. This is like I have IT. I'll get my hands back, but i'm going to take shit or photos who doesn't love two of magpie? All single non hd heart photos people love .

IT more than five mega pixel, which was in the previous one and .

I haven't seen the photos but that's always to me it's like you what's the phrase the best cameras, the one you have with you? I always have an amazing camera with me, your glasses, right? I with my glass asses, my transition.

Once I know I my phones are around, you know, and I bought a really nice camera so I could divest myself of the phone. But I don't think having a more convenient camera, I don't maybe I haven't seen the photos. I vents like use the thing and blind reacts to the the right glasses. But you know I I don't know like it's it's a more technology when I was what David year point I was after a less yeah and .

I think I think to me like it's very clear that meta does not see these smart glasses as like the end point of smart glasses, right? Like at the end of connect mark duck a got up and did the like almost sort of Steve jobs impression of, like, you know, when he was like, it's a wide screen ipod, it's a phone, it's communicate and he was like, he sure that he was like, we have the quest ry headset. We have all this AI communication stuff and then we have smart classes.

And the case he made is that like the end state of this is that the first two things, the quest and the AI stuff, are going to end up in the glasses, right? Like he's this is the foremost factor. And we're going to all stuff into IT over time.

And I don't know how long that's gna take or if that ever onna happen, but I believe them that, that the vision and I think the question we've been asking for a bunch years now is like, is there anything interesting along the way? And to me, just purely from a personal perspective of the cameras don't do anything for me, partly because I think they are like real world. Creeping factor is still really real.

And I don't I don't know how to sort through that. Yes, just like even just like walking around, if you just walk around a city, just holding up your phone like you might be taking A P, you're going to creep people out, right? I think actually doing anything IT feels bad. And so I have not sorted through how to deal with that.

But I do think the uh the thing I most excited to see about these glasses is whether the mike and headphones are good because it's essentially they are trying to do this like personal audio speaker thing where you can hear that nobody else can IT has five weeks in the glasses, including one on your nose, that supposed to do Better job of picking up your voice, which makes sense. If that works, that's pretty cool. I don't like being a person who wears airpower s all the time.

I would like to be a person who wears our podds less. And so if that's the kind of thing that I can use, like if i'm out on a Walker, whatever that's compelling to me, but also like it's whatever IT with two hundred and fifty box and I gna buy. I don't wear glasses anyway. If I already wear glasses, I think I would be slowly talking myself into this. But if somebody who doesn't otherwise our glasses, that a big leap.

I mean, that's that's what am I O like? Maybe I should get a pair of these the next time I go get my prescription plated.

I mean, a pair of wafers is like one hundred and sixty five dollars. You're not that for a way to add all this other stuff.

We're all learning an important lesson .

about the amount of .

margin contain rare for yes, maybe this is going to drop start dropping the Prices of regular glasses.

I only buy twenty and glasses because I love them. And I think I just realized, I came to my conclusion.

one nice pair of sunglasses. And I said, if I lose these within a year, i've never allowed to buy a nice sunglasses. Can I lost them in three days? I don't have just gone. And so now I buy, I buy fifteen dollars sunglasses. Like four times year.

It's great. Yeah, I buy prescription sunglasses. I have had them ten years. The prescriptions no longer accurate.

but I still have the glasses.

I probably couldn't drive with them. It's fine.

I want to say this here. You know, everyone thinks this is a form factor. Apple thinks this is a form factor.

what? The most compelling applications that are being built in the space are all virtual reality applications, even apple, right? When you look at their demos, it's like you're court side at the NBA, like there's a dinosaurs, you are whatever. They're all VR applications. There are no compelling mixed or air applications that because .

haven't figure out the privacy well short.

but they just they came even demo even my demo, my killer APP. I will pay any amount of money for IT right? Just show me people's name.

I was just at this conference in one of time I spent squinting at people's baddies, which is just really a weird thing to do um but with your hosting conference, make the name figure on the badges. That's my one. Know now that i'm a conference, all the one size is next year going to be bananas.

It's out of control just everyone like you are in science of their name on them. This is my killer APP. This is the thing I want the most places and names.

Incredibly difficult to do in a privacy centric way. You might have to build A A worldwide facial recognition native ball, very hard, even that right, that that it's not built because of those problems, but it's a killer after A R. No one can do IT.

All of the ones are building along the way of V, R. And that is in conflict with our belief about what the form factor will be, because you have to block out the world in to do, we are well. And a pair of glasses does not, by definition, does not do that. And I was having dinner with a friend at the conference and earlier, but we'll just like, do the things on the sides. And I like what kind of like mad max, like ball shit, you trying to sell me right now?

good. No, you look just look like you had car actually .

you're going to look like where I am. And it's like a early to the essence music. No, no, no, no, no, no.

no. bad. Look, toll do that. So I was just saying.

like all of the best applications that we're building, a real applications and everyone thinks the form factor, what will make those applications go away unless you saw this like block out the world and like I don't, that's weird. There's attention there that I think, like you said, David, we're figuring out there's anything interesting along the way. The thing is interesting to me along the way is the absolute tension between what's why you would put a computer on your face and the form factor of whatever wants a computer .

to be or has to be at the right. We're very much in the like, yeah you know, one thousand and ninety desktop tower PC thing where the only version of IT weigh a thousand pounds and has to live on your wood office. Max, set up, please keep setting us .

your old death. So make coffee table table I, so this is my girl. It's a coffee table book called computer rooms.

And then we're going to a retire and we're going to buy a boat in that book. In that boat will be called the computer room. And i've just been thinking of this place the whole time. I love IT, right?

We need to take one more break and then we're going to come back. We're going talk to a straight very quick and we're going to do a little thing round and we're going to get.

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right? We're back out. Grants tells about the end of the writer strike. IT ended this week kind of out of nowhere IT seemed like.

But we knew we knew that negotiations seem to be reaching a conclusion. Everybody was starting to get kind of excited about whatever contract was coming. Contract is out now the the guilt still has to vote on IT.

So both the writers guild of america, east and west, both of them still have to vote on IT. Everybody still reading over IT. They released the salary tuesday night.

And then the next day, they released the actual contracts, you can go and if you run to, you can go poor through the whole thing. We have like a little summary of IT up on the website as well. And there's a lot of big stuff in IT.

They got almost everything they wanted IT, as far as A I goes. So there's a lot of AI protections and IT. You're not gonna able to go ask I to come up with the plot and then take that to a writer and make a writer write IT and then you keep the the rights to that story.

You're not to be able to do that. The writer will maintain the rights to the story because A S cannot AI generated content cannot have rights according to this contract, which is probably good. I think that was really exciting.

I know I spoke to a few few writers who were really, really excited about that part of that and excited to just have that protection that helps to maintain the status quote. And the the thing that's really going to change the status quote is the data. There's now going to be data that the writer of skilled is going to receive from these streamers with like netflix, amazon, all these people have been super, super OPEC about their data.

They're not to be able to be a of pike with the writers build itself. A lot of that data is not going to come to the rest of us because it's you know they still don't want everybody to know their numbers, but the writers sq will be able to release in an aggregate. And the fact that the numbers are even going to be out there just changes things like it's a town, people tell people are gonna those number ers. That seems like the bet.

right? I was this to an interview with adam conover, who's a write, who's on the negotiating committee for the guilt, and I forget he was talking to. I wish I could set the podcast I was asking to, but he basically was like, if you reporters want the number, maybe you should make a journalist union and go fight with studios.

I don't care about you. I'm trying to get numbers for many people. But then what he basically said is like between between the numbers that are going to get reported to the guilt and the fact that this business is shifting towards advertising, like we're just gonna start to know more.

It's there just the numbers are going to be reported to more people. People talk, it's gonna start to be out there in much bigger ways, and I think that's true. But IT does seem like there some rubrics they invented for like total hours watched of something. It's like we're still inventing the new numbers of what all of these things mean.

Yeah, there are still new numbers, but I think because they're ensuring in a contract, they'll probably start to stabilize as the new numbers, right? We talked about that on the podcast earlier this week in the numbers, they've always been fake. They've always been not real and everybody just agree with, okay, these not real numbers are the ones we're onna use. And so now we have new numbers that are probably the most realistic numbers we've had for for scamming or or broadcast television from being honest like these. These are numbers that like are very, very tractor, very understood and um they're different. It's total hours of something streamed, I think is is IT and that's like kind of goofy, but it's a real number, you know but this does mean that like if three hundred million people watch the first fifteen minutes of something, that could be the same as if one person watches at three hundred billion times, which is a very real possibility, because there are some weirdos out there like.

great, I like me seeking a cap.

I S an important piece of information. yes. So one of our sponsors, that code was lumination, which former linux can scan. They do the vibart's. It's not really fun this session and they were talking about how they measure things. Did you know that the platform level, if you streams something more than fifty times in a day, doesn't count because your cap s yeah .

you just tell about at fifty if you're .

more than thirty times a day like you didn't do IT time.

But do you get the fifty? I don't .

that's propriete weirdly and interest, right? But if you talk to the people who measure of things, illuminate, which makes the charge with bill board um yeah, they're like there's a platform model we keep up hence we are rented so everything .

you love you can only stream forty nine times .

today yeah there are still some like algorithm Normalization. And I think this is going now coming. This is my thesis like that whatever happens to music industry happens everywhere else. Five years later. This is not going to come to streaming television because if you are a writer or you have a fandom and there is going to be an agreed number that everyone agrees on you, you're necessarily going to go try to game that number.

I mean that the fans already do that like .

if they no transparent yeah yeah .

right right now, IT was kind of like we're working because IT showed up in the netflix top ten. I we're working because some company did analysis .

and said and to show you the time, not guarantee you a god cancelled in the middle of the first episode.

But not only that, I mean, the platforms also have one hundred thugs to put on the scale at any given time. Like what netflix chooses to show you in that big banner when you open the APP is very meaningful in the top .

ten is like very localized, like the here's the top ten things in your house. It's the show that you were the epa in this.

It's always the show that they have already cancelled. It's like alex, you wanted the show we just cancelled and am my guy do and I hate you so so yeah like what this contract this contract straight historic though also because like there were a lot of big Price increases in is particularly around streaming.

Streaming is not lucrative if you are writer just straight up before this IT was not lucrative, you could barely make in to me for the vast majority of people. And the the pursuit us have got really good about gaming, the system that existed to pay as little as possible and this kinds, and did a lot of that coming. It's still gona happen.

People are still going to get screwed out of money that, that is the nature of business. But but this is this contract really put some really strong gardens and particularly around streaming like they are. They are anticipating.

I think it's like a twenty six percent increase in in revenue for writers of streaming films that make that have a budget of thirty million or more. So all those really big netflix, apple TV films and stuff were previously. They probably weren't getting a lot of money for that.

They're not going to be beginning like at least one hundred thousand dollars. And that's nice. That seems nice to be so.

So yeah, this was like very historic. Sag is still on strike, but there is a lot of movement there. People were kind of expecting this to be the way W.

G. A goes. They get this really good deal. Sag is going to get a lot of similar stuff because of that deal and be able to close things. And if you're in the director skills of america, I don't know what to tell you. You guys decided on your contract before everybody else went on strike.

but they might have known the writers first.

Yeah, they do. They do. And in their contract is by comparison, not nearly as good.

Their directors, yeah.

the directors, they're fine. They got their producer credit like they could just put themselves in as an act or a writer. They'll find other ways to make the body.

Every director now is a camel could be great. I was like the the casey on saja code was like we're doing. We held true detective because we wanted we are judy faster to be available to promote the show. We wanted people to talk about IT. And like the same deal isn't time, but they're very confident that the writer steel is going to give them the .

atrocious yeah yeah, because so much of the debate is about the same stuff. And I think I think IT definitely seemed to be that IT was likely for the guilt to get the deal done first. And then there's going to be a lot of copying and pasting from this deal to that deal, especially IT seems that the A I stuff. And I thought one of the most interesting parts of the A I piece of this deal was essentially that, uh, they pointed on the question of training data that can you use our work to train A I models that can make other screen place that there was .

a very specific reason for that. And that's because there's so much like laws that are potentially going to an effect. So why hold on to this bargaining chip when you know that california this like I think that was last week, california said we're gona look into regulating training data and and making sure compensation happens and stuff.

I will bet you ten dollars right now that this deal gets renegotiated again before anybody makes a on yeah right.

If you know that you're Operating in three year cycles.

you like that mean, like I think you're right, alex. But I think I think everybody was just like who the hell knows like let's come back into this again and three years. If IT gets weird, there's a line in here that lets us yellow you. If he gets weird, that's good enough for now. Yeah.

I said I thought that was a release smart there part like, okay, we're going to kick this can down the road. Maybe something that happens, maybe something that doesn't. We ve got three years to figure that out.

A funny godman of, like, no one really knows anything. So like, let's just be cool for now and we'll figure this out later. I thought that was like there was just a funny place for that land um right let's do a lightning round.

Um we are already very long so let just blow through this, hit some more news and get out of here. I will go first so you guys can come up with your own milla. You can quickly read five days of the verge and catch up and see you.

I know how to pick me. It's very obvious, no, that once mine, alex ali and I are fighting in the rubble back. There's like two persons like furiously selecting lines in the google.

There's a lot happy. Mine is there's this big shift in the podcast world. If you think we got to talk about podcast on podcast, google is killing google podcasts because it's all in on youtube music as the home of podcasts.

I just like a side note is I hate the fact that there are apps called amazon music and youtube music and their podcast apps like bad names, everybody like you, you screwed up anyway. Google podcast is going away because google can't stop killing, adapt, but it's all in on youtube as a podcast platform. Youtube music has been like a sneaky placed investment for youtube for a long time now and they are getting much louder about like we've really think this is our subscription business going forward.

That's really interesting. Apple podcasts is going the other way there. They are integrating a lot of stuff from outside of podcasts into podcasts, including some of the like radio stuff that we've been doing, some of the different like meditation stuff that they've been doing. There's just a lot of like audio around the apple ecosystem that now all being pulled into apple podcast. So while while youtube goes into youtube, but apple is pulling in podcasts and I thought that was very interesting. And also to everyone who has asked what podcast APP should I use the there are lots of good answers minus pocket casts it's a terrific APP it's been around forever automatic owns IT the people who are more impressed so they're not going to kill IT rain because they hate you. It's a good APP pocket casts.

I can't even mention podcast without people tell me show overcast .

is a great APP. The only downside of overcast is that IT is it's pretty platform specific, but otherwise IT is a terrific APP. Let's see, I feel like what everyone of you I call on right now gets to have this one.

No, I I another one.

let me go and you say.

literally I .

knew I go.

I is a log attack, a partner with economical place seat and they ve i've made a logitech rended racing chair. I'm really unhappy because I own the same chair without the logic improvements. I owe the places chAllenge for place station VR in grantor's movie are it's great chair loge attack. By the way, if you just look at IT, I know racing wheel in this chair, that company thinks there's a bigger market in racing in and there just like go and after IT.

And I think they're right now it's coming. This thing falls up like that. I have not bought one .

of these because no, I again, I have the thing IT falls up. It's very IT falls up the wheel says attached all very compacting unit closet. It's just still unfolded and you put in the same thing like i'm the uses again tomorrow. You never for no.

my problem is I have to buy this thing without my wife ever finding out that I bought IT. So I I need to be able to get rid of IT very quickly at a moments notice.

And there's nothing like fortify hiding a receipt that says the words play seat on and your wife yeah that's .

fun to explain on the card statement with what did logistic do that makes this all in exciting.

So if you just look at some of the know, the little lashes is little Better like they they ve made some quality of life improvements because they're large attack. So it's like just from what I can tell, they've just made IT slightly easier to like Operate the folding and the you know they have just like made IT more organometallic. It's smoothly like the things that are right now blue, you know, but like logic is doing this space.

They want to distribute the stuff. The places does not have huge distribution, right? There is also a little company what I like, best buy. So like I think they are they're taking IT and are putting that out in the channels because they see a bigger market for the stuff.

IT falls down. So little did .

P S V R granter ism of you are. We did this whole thing about the question. yeah. And I am telling you the grand juries of V R. And the P S.

V R two is one of the single most compelling things you can do in V R. I believe IT. But even I like a car nerd and I love IT. And that's like, fine. Like my friends, my family, I put them in the thing in life and a little chair and I got and they're like, blown away.

You put a little fan in front of them, really get the emotion yeah.

I stand right next going room just back .

the truck up all cold on of.

you know, we did.

We did to like, know kids react video to projects or line IT code, which is another, something is impossible, show people. But it's great. We should do. We should do a video. People react to you because it's super.

Cause I need to stop looking at this petrol, i'm going to buy the thing, alex.

So I just want to close the loop. We know where amazon for amazon hara chief David lip o and he's going to blue origin, so he's gonna build rockets.

Just can't get enough, jeff.

They just can't get enough of jeff. So that was like everybody versely. They also finally confirmed that panels today is definitely coming to amazon that's happening. So all of the something that was up in the air now we know everybody is dave is going to be over apple e origins. So probably.

alexa, take me a space for two minutes. I need to flow around a little .

bit and and panel is definitely coming to amazon. So it's both happening. I have already emailed amazon repeatedly about e readers as soon as I was announced.

I'm so sorry to amazon. P, R, but yeah, let's see a pens. See, let's see a really good kindle .

as soon as the ponies users announced. Somebody just mentioned me on threads and just said the word's .

kindle fold question.

Mark, it's all I been thinking about OK on us. Me, my folding kindle, right? We have gone extremely long.

We need to get here like that.

There I to her bed.

So working like i'm back, by the way, codes over I am become. Dept, welcome that I have saw on his back .

yeah everyone who asked for a neil, I was you're you grew how much he is back .

now but you like I said.

there's gonna there's a bunch more trials have to come IT sounds like si and adella, the city of microsoft .

is going to be flying next that there .

is so much to talk about. This could be great. I'm excited about IT testifying on monday.

We think i'm going to be in the court for that. Lots more going on there. We have the ftc suing amazon.

The F, T, X trial is starting next week. There is like a lot still happening. There's a google event coming next week. Uh, we are not short of things to talk about. In the meantime, we're gonna tune of code stuff going up over the next few days.

Interview with nbc, lisa, who is up now, he talked a lot about competing with video. Yes.

that was a good one too. We should have mention that other SHE was great and very interesting about like the future of all of this. A I was really interest.

I put products on stage at code. The bull ship was the bulls ship.

but the products are real. Let you go, right? We are out here. Everybody's going to go just decompressing for a couple of, and will be back next. K.

take. Took my line.

And that's a rap for verge cast this week. We'd love to hear from you. Should does an email at verge cast at the verge dot com, verge cast as a production of the verge and the box media podcast network.

The show is produced by me, liam James and our senior audio director, Andrew marina. Our editorial director is brook meters. That's IT. We'll see next week.

Support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A, A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud.

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What does he feel like to get the new iphone sixteen pro with A N T next up anytime? It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouth watering possibilities, learn how to get the new iphone sixteen pro with apple intelligence on A N T and the latest iphone every year with A N T next up, any time A N T connecting changes everything, apple intelligence fall twenty twenty four with theory and device language set to U. S.

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