Sonos loses to Google, and Threads takes on Twitter
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How about in your chest the flagship podcast, CS s elements, top, bottom, left, right. We've got more here. It's good. This, I promise you that will be right. And I my friend nell.

a David pearce, here. hi. I should confess that I don't know the difference between margin and padding in CS s and if someone would pleased mail and explain that me, that would really do .

you just open the door, friend.

They create more space that they both do that very differently.

I'm confident .

that is different. You have to. Okay.

here are the two rules. If you have to limit yourself to five words and you can treat GPT, but then you can email with the margin heating in CS.

And I will. Several of those details on .

this podcast sounds good.

thanks. Here I have a confession to make, and that I thought the phrase .

big naturals came from already. Did you just say again off?

I thought I was again off me. That's all i'm going to say about that. I just want to get that out there. I thought I was again off me.

I realized now that you've opened this horrible door, this is the most of just that ever happened. We've gone from C. S. S. But I realized last week I said I had this bad idea of example because of a me.

And I didn't say what the meme was.

Was IT. Also, again, I was Kevin James.

similar, very simple.

And you can just go back and listen to what I was talking about, contextual, to understand why that is a horse idea. Do you can find IT casey posted IT in platformer.

I'm just in just .

i'll send IT do that right? Here's why I was talking about CS s this is the thing that just got fixed. Our website, I think, is one of the funniest things that has ever been fixed.

Our website, we have a lot to talk about. There's some threads news. David reviewed the medic quest three.

We've sono Scott just blasted by a federal judge for patent of bees. Chris watches enjoyed that be lighting around. But there's a thing that happened on our website that is so silly. IT is my favorite ite bug that we have ever fixed.

So we have published articles in like one of our fancy layouts, and we get all these comments that are like, how dare you have black text on an orange background and we'd like, what are you talking about? Like, that's just the headline. That's fine. And after a while, like, there's no way this many people are this mad about the headlines being on.

We should say the way it's supposed to look is there's like A A colored benner at the top yeah right behind like the image and the headline and the subhead and the author same and it's like it's a banner that says like big important story and then IT ends and then you read the story, which is black text on a whie background and we were .

getting on these comments or like out there, are you and that's like, that's weird. But you a redesign everyone is about about everything in the redesign. So for a while, we're just like people are just mad that we take this color or any color at all, which is a real thing that happens when you make a website.

How dare you use a color? fine. We use some color. I promise we run the accessibility checkers Better. While the sustained anger that there was black text on orange back, we were just like, there has to be something going on here.

And we finally figured that out IT is the silliest bug in the entire world, all of those people as best as we can tell, we're using the brave browser, which has a number of tracking blockers. And IT is implemented in the most short gun way. You can imagine, they just block all instances of the word butt, which in their implementation just means the string B, O, T gets blocked, which means CS S H bottom got blocks.

Which, by the way, the fact is that works for brave is .

deeply history. So all these users, just like, imagine trying to debug this so that all these users were in vaccine. A full page of an orange background with black text we had, we couldn't tell, but IT was because of this approach to tracking prevention, which is just brute force enforcement.

We live IT just make sure I understand with this quickly because this is a big brave is just going in in anything that it's anytime to sees the letters B, O.

T is just like not that get IT.

And we had we had a thing meant to define the bottom of the red. There was breaking .

our css because he was blocking the red bottom somewhere. Both our product manager and our senior engineering, both named terror. And I demanded just now in a meeting, they write about this because I i'd fix IT so good.

So we fixed IT. This is what running a website is like. It's great. Please keep visiting your website no matter what brother on. But if you are a seeing something completely bananas IT might be that your browser is doing something just .

maybe check, brother.

Yeah, that's good.

So that's a web design.

That's why so far is .

there I never use IT.

but I see if it's broken. There's nothing more powerful you can say in a product meeting, then it's a broken in safari, too.

yes.

All right. Let's think .

about some things. David, you just did a bunch of views on the wednesday show and then you just reveal the media question you want to talk about quickly.

yeah. Well, I am most cares from the pixel perspective kind of what you guys think of all this. We've been tracking this lot.

I you know how to weak to sit with you. What is a photo feelings? I talk to Alice in a bunch about how he feels about that. She's a lot more, I would say, Normal human than you are about. She's just like, yes, it's this stuff is complicated and weird and IT does not as work all that well. And i'm very aware, every time I edited these images, that was one of the questions I asked, that i've actually got ten a surprising amount of, uh, people responding to. Is this like he was like that I my image is look like Normal images, but I know that I did something to them and IT sort of changes my relationship.

You and I was reading in a bunch of people have reached out and said, not only do I feel that way, this stuff, but like, IT is changed the way that i've edited all of my family photos forever, because even when I put the Better face on, I remember, and IT changes my relationship to that image when I change IT service. Been thinking about that for like two days now, but I said on this show last week that I was sort of disappointed in what the pixel IT seemed to be. And I feel like I have changed my tune now seeing A S interview and other people's reaction to IT people seem to be into this fun like IT seems like they google like did a good thing I thought I are .

framing of their views are really interesting and incredibly read IT. It's about whether not you can trust google, which is where google is like I think the seven years of updates that they promised, we got a bunch of notes why you talk about the seven years of update, something people excited about IT. It's you can be of two minds about that one.

You can be excited about IT google finally going to commit to a supporting a thing for seven years. Or you can say, when will they break my heart? And I think we got a bunch of notes on either side of that debate. I answer a strange place for google to be in. My people don't trust them to support their products over the long term.

I mean, and with good reason, but I would.

They provided abundant, evident. So make a promise like a supportive for seven years, and then you get a fifty, fifty reaction to IT, which is, I think, fascinating, and that, you know, the pixel later, I think, is just in that lining age of things. Like, are they going to stay committed to all of these ideas, or are they going to walk away from some of them? The assistance seems Better and faster on this phone.

Will IT work like that next year? Will google flip the table in hundred and fifteen like a lot of that embed in this phone along side? Oh, some ideas did iterate themselves to completion, and it's pretty good.

Yeah, I think that's right. I think the A, I stuff is so tied up and that rate because like the promise google has been making about this, pushed to A I as you're going to be able to buy a piece of hardware. And as long as IT is sufficiently capable, IT is going to get Better over time, like actually get Better over time, which is the thing we've been saying for years.

Never buy a product based on future promises. But like the promise of A I is that IT will get Better over time, literally, as you use IT, IT will get Better. And that's compelling.

But I think the the pixel of seven didn't really do that. And uh, I think alison wrote that piece like six months after the pixel seven came out being like get this phone so pretty good. It's really not any Better like google does.

The future drops that adds new stuff. The models get Better whatever bit. There hasn't been anything that sort of changed the game there.

And I like the reason to worry about this phone is to worry that IT is going to be exactly what IT is right now, seven years from now. And that is so not the promise google wants you to believe in. And yeah, i'm i'm very torn between the two. But like google at least seems to have made a bunch of good decisions about where I could go. It's just about whether IT chooses .

to keep going, that when do we trust like like I think that's the thing I keep thinking about is IT feels like i'm like like when you in a relationship and somebody breaks your trust and you like, how do I go back to trusting you, right? Like in real life IT a long journey. It's not like you need to start doing these things.

And that's usually when we talk about companies we wanted trust them again. Rather, you need to do this, this and this. But google can't do that because IT keeps breaking promises .

like a google killed pixel .

past six weeks ago, right? Like, how do I trust google again? good. Like like this phone seems really cool. Like part of me once to it's it's just like that best friend, like I wanted trust you.

I think the answers is really narrow. I think it's kind of what David is saying. You're going to buy this phone on the same cadence, especially the pro people who buy profond, I think are two year cycles maybe shorter?

I think I I know a lot of profit people here on a one year cycle, three year. But that's reasonable. I think it's the seven years where people are like really like it's hard to think of the google products except for searching and youtube that has lasted for seven years. yes. G milk.

that's basically that's kind of what we're .

working with you. Yeah uh, even when I got to note today about decoder being in youtube music and it's so oh because I shut down the podcasting and moved IT on like even that like even what you would think of is like basic stuff, they just move around out. So the idea that this phone is going to stay fixed and relevant for seven years, I think is really important. It's google saying, okay, the pixel program is gonna around for seven years. But like David at the cancel the pixel all past six weeks, you for the suit and who knows?

So really is just IT is that waiting game? And IT is like that .

the best friend I was in alsons s entire review like that was the frame and I got me like it's the right frame like here's a bunch of bets google is taking. Some of these thoughts are finished. That's really remarkable.

Google doesn't finish lot of thoughts and some of the thoughts are finished. But the fact that it's like a vessel of google services in google AI means you have to believe yeah that that stuff will persist for quite a long time. You have to believe that this ecosystem is going get richer and richer and richer for a long time anyway, that even the samsung ecosystem is. Now that I have IT like a long train commute, I gotta say i'm getting secret pilled. I'm like, what if I don't bring a laptop and I have a galaxy fold and then I used decks at the office and I ve thought, like, I like that ecosystem is they just kept at IT if bring and I .

was just waiting .

for me time.

I get on. No, just got no.

What I want is to not Carry a OK. I just, I just want to roll under the train like a ninja. You like an a sin, no backpack and no bag and nothing like, who is this guy in the morning? Commuting to new .

york city with coffee .

at this may be like a, because that is a power, especially when it's warmer.

when a coat just flip the phone.

very matic, except for me, i've got a folding phone, which you like to see, my tablet that used to be my phone. And then I get to the office. I started nothing, you the only person elevator our building without a bag and he's like conventional walked like weird rotating desk and sit down. You like, I have a computer now it's not a great computer. It's not super functional.

The slack experience is probably Better .

probably yeah because lack hasn't been updated for .

decks yeah you that's good. We announced .

the rest of the show complaining with the site .

is get excited but .

yeah i'm saying is the same sound like kept chipping away at that ecosystem such that even if it's a bad idea, IT feels like a good idea now right? You're not like an early adopter this. You're like down the road with IT.

And you can read all the blog post about how to make IT work for we're talked to them two choices with the pixel. I think everything is new all the time. So that's the thing that really got me IT just seem like a camera sort of divorced from the AI editing stuff.

The camera is good, anything else and said it's pixel camera when it's great, it's great. And then when IT fails, it's very predictably t fails. I think these cameras, year over a year, are almost like imperceptible vely different.

The I didn't review the iphone thirteen this year. I tried to do a thing when I try to not pay attention to what was new for my fourteen, just to see what jumped out. And it's nothing, it's nothing when I go look, I mean, obviously they're stuff i'm excited about USB c very cool.

Had to buy capable, very cool. But it's like it's so imperceptibly different. It's the zoo. S is really nice in low light. It's a little bit sweaters, a little more sweeter money.

对 so so but I think .

it's the same way to texture to both these phones， I think get imperceptible Better here every year. I just come back to the AI thing, and I know I was like ranting, raving last week, and I received a lot of feedback in the feedback is uniformly in two camps. This is the end of all trusted information, and we should be more careful or you couldn't trust the information anyway.

Care now yeah, that's IT. There's like almost no gra. Those aren't .

that different that actually be on one side of the school.

I just think that's really interesting. Again, you can say people like he hates school. It's like i'm just saying if you can ship photos that demonstrative ly did not happen and no knows except for you.

And as they would point out, like a lot of the feedback is like what I know when you have that feeling that something important is happening there, right? The feeling is i'm lying to everyone like that's the feeling that there's not anything else. You're not being totally honest and you know that's all like something along the way should quill that feeling just you can communicate all the water was in a meda data way.

They can be stripped or don't do this. This is another choice I will say I took on my instagram there's I took a photo of maximum eating ice, screaming and go look at IT and there's people on the backside. And I thought myself before, i'd like to delete those people, but, you know, I didn't do IT because I can't then come back on the show, i've boxed myself into a non AI generated corner.

What if you heal? Heal brushed him out?

Yeah, I just replaced them fully.

Yeah, just just stick .

a in .

t of just for some reason David and alex on the Better all my I tell you about the question. Okay, that's thing I really want to hear about.

So I had this really interesting experience to the question, which is like it's two different headsets in one headsets uh, on the one hand, IT is like the third quest, right? It's it's A V R heads set that does V R heads that things and IT just like shockingly well, I had this experience the first time I put on the headset of things looked right. I didn't have to spend half an hour like darling in the little things.

I didn't have to move IT around a bunch of my haters like looked good. And it's crazy how much to that upgrade in display quality, which IT has, is the best looking quest by a mile ever, including the quest pro. And just like changes everything, it's more fun to do things.

It's more fun to look at menus. I find myself like using the headset lunger. IT has more games. IT has more processing power like it's a Better V R headset and all the ways you'd want to to be A V R. But then on the other hand, meta is out here being like this is the first mainstream mixed reality and set.

And I just saw myself the whole time doing the review being like, what does that mean? IT has new pass through, uses these cameras in adapt sensor to like Better map the world around you and see what's going on, and you can interact with the world headed. That's all true and alcohol.

And there is precisely one good mixed reality experience I had on the whole thing and it's the demo APP that shows you how to use mix reality like it's called first encounter and it's sick. It's so fun. There's like like I played IT mostly down here and it's IT starts with coming from your ceiling.

There's a little alien craft and IT actually makes a thing that looks like a hole in your ceiling and then aliens just blow holes in all your walls and you have to fight them. It's so fun. The last like eight minutes and minutes, I go have phone on your headset, not like I, what else? What do I do here?

So I did in this really where place of lake and I I argued about this bunch with uh, adi and dan who have done a lot of these, had interviews for us. Like on the one hand, it's a five hundred dollar, very good V, R, headset. Cool, big up.

Great over the quest. You lot more expressing the quest. You, on other hand, that has this like amazing new functionality that is essentially not for anything, don't know what to do with .

that and they're marketing the product. Yeah.

but I was the same thing we saw with the PS five, right? Like p five comes out aster's playroom. Really, really cool.

Great demos. You're like, oh, wow, the controller is so cool. Every other games, just like IT, that's a controller .

hundred percent. Yeah yeah.

But this is like I feel like a bigger deal because mixed reality is bigger than haptic feedbacks. Probably a lot, a lot of people were buying the p.

we may the entire P, S, five for a meddle gilgen that never came. Ah and my dude left, you know my cozie has gone and like no one's ever going to use this controller again, only intend to gets to pull the controller track yeah by the way, i'm sure they're cool. Have to PS five games.

I like mad in great tories know in that. Fine, right? Just be fine with that horizon.

exactly. I get what I want out of this council. It's awesome. Great country. Let's just talk about, but just talk about racing seats for us. I know I think there's that.

Look, the check in problem like you need a cheap, good mixed reality had said yes for developers who want to come and developed for IT fine and the vision pro is coming and present on these concepts will grow in the market going. I guess my question is that what everyone wants, right? Everyone wants to do augmented reality. I can't tell if we made the best of V, R headset ever, but we want to talk about IT as though what is not A V R headset means the VR market has come to its logical conclusion.

I think IT has I kind of .

too I think I don't know if it's come to its logical conclusion. I think it's very clear that IT has a ceiling and that, that ceiling is fairly low. I don't think this headsets as much Better as IT is, is going to make people who never wanted headsets, want headsets, right? And like if you take the diagram of headset people and all people, it's headset people is like a tiny, tiny sliver rate.

It's like people who had smartphones in like two thousand and two. I was one of those people and IT ruled, and my smart phone was a piece of junk. And I had IT because like, I am that kind of person.

But IT took a long time for like, the world to become smartphone people. And then. We're there with headsets s right, where there's like there's this much market share for people who want headsets to do VR things, right?

Like it's a gaming thing and IT is harder to use and access than a lot of gaming thing. So it's it's a small group if you believe is a lot of people in tech do that. The future is glasses that we are all eventually going to wear something on our face.

You are never going to get anywhere close to that with mostly of the r product. I think you're right. That man is just out.

You're saying like this is the start of IT. Like this is what the oculus device IT was, you know, eleven years ago. This is now that except they want you very badly to buy IT.

But the thing that really confuses me is that at the very beginning when meta decided IT was all in on VR, back when I was oculus and faced with facebook, the company went way out of its way to like juice the ecosystem. IT bought every company IT could think of IT had this like crazy flood of content. IT like single handedly made the V R.

Ecosystem and ecosystem. I don't see any of that happening and makes reality. Now, even all the cool stuff coming, there's a bunch cool games coming. There's a science crew game coming.

No game console shell ll exist out a if you don't .

get IT in six months.

just throw on the time, not stabbing you, nothing is happen.

But all the stuff that's coming is V, R, games. add. Keep making the case to me that maybe the problem here is that even meet a is not sure what mixed reality is for especially in the headset you're not likely to like wear out into the world. And I think she's probably right about that. So it's like this is like A A very cool V R headset with a tech demo on top of IT.

And tech deo was also like, isn't that a magic leap tech demo .

years ago or .

was like was part of the cool. So it's exciting. I can do that now not with like a classes in a little backpack.

but it's something like it's fun. The first encounter thing is like.

legit fun. Would you say that IT hacked the GPU of your brain, which is what magically .

used to say about the tiny, tiny, like sliver of field of view that you would get in the mag?

I would just never, ever forget. I believe this is like a wired covered story, right?

Kevin Kelly thought about IT.

IT was like, we used the magical and they were just lying in IT where they refused to describe how their technology worked. Like the poor lie. Reporters like we ask, the technology worked.

And they say they are just kept saying things like IT hacks the GPU of your brain. You're just incredible. Like if only I could say things like that more consistently, right? Yeah.

that would be great. I mean.

diverge hacks the GPU of your brain.

That's pretty honest. I agree with you about .

this is the other thing. Every compelling demo t even of the vision pro, every compelling idea for these products is virtual ality. There just isn't one with the, you know, the videos of the vision pro or to the quest pro before IT, we are at a table and you put five giant monitors in front of you on the table.

And so, like, you know, that requires an empty table. What, why would you have? What, like, inside your house is a bad mixed reality environment. Because this is likely that you don't just have, like, empty rooms.

I got the idea.

the this stop, I invision reMarks are everywhere. Here's that's going to happen in the future. People will live in gigantic empty homes in my virtual objects will fill those homes to move around your house and do anything. You will wear my headset .

and by my N, F. ties.

But that's like, is that that right? Is that why world chasing? And so you can buy TV from the facebook to our, I don't know, like that you gotta give me some reason. I I want to wear to sing in my house. And all the reasons in the house are virtual reality reasons I got one, I got graders ies in supernatural.

They haven't released yet, but they got to like car and computer repair, mixed reality. Like you just put IT on and you look .

down as like.

yes, you you miss that up and say is.

boy the screws are small er than thought yeah you don't have a ball do you you forgotten ball you're just hoping they don't roll away and .

it's just like a little thing up at the top showing you what actually you need to do yeah versus whatever the instruction say like I would buy a headset in a heartbeat if I did that for I chia furniture, plumbing.

I don't know how to plumb. Alex, like such good news for you, i'd like to tell you Better products called google glass, which exists still in this world today, exists to do exactly of the thing you describing. It's not for you. It's for like people who repair airplanes and stuff. It's not for people who put together a key furnace, which to be there would be sick.

I want for my house.

No way. how? How long? Excuse me, i'm sorry my google clock died.

You are wrong. Google class has been discontinued. March seen twenty, twenty three google enterprise PPT being sold.

That was the market. They pivoted in cape. But people are still using IT. sure. I'm sure somewhere there's a mechanic being like, man, I hope this airplane .

ability up today can imagine all like, let me take a look. Just flip this google glass.

I will say the first ever holo demo I took at microsoft that maybe were a halloween. And I replaced the Spark plug in an A T. V. By walking around.

I I fix some pumping.

See if you that was my question to them, which in retrospect, was not as rude as IT should have been, was, if you are a and you have a shop full of tools and someone has brought you there A T, V, wouldn't you already know how to fix this works for?

But that's why this is perfect for consumers because I would not I have a vogue understand.

wouldn't be in a position we're like, you were perfectly ready to replace the Spark plug in your face computer was like, now walk thirty steps in the left and get this arrange like if all of that is ready to go and you spent the time to set that. Like and you don't want to fix the Spark plug, like your priorities are just upside down.

But that is exactly what I would do with life. It's like like they got hundred percent. Yeah, i've got everything ready. I google, but I didn't google how to actually do the thing.

I just goole the prep. But luckily youtube exists and i'm sure there is a middle aged man with boots on who will teach you how to do anything you can think of you.

But I wanted a mixed reality showing me. And then, like alex, that's terrible. What are you doing?

The other, this is like the true promise of A I is synthesizing youtube fixit guy to look through your eyes.

And he should be played by tea pain.

Never hire an ac repair guys.

And you say we don't have ideas in the world. This is how you like the GPU of the brain step in general. AI plummer, just being like, that's not how you fix a toilet.

perfect. It's true, by the way, that those enterprise products existed. They thought that would be a huge market, right? You've got a era baby mechanic for delta. You got a fixed thing. What you that's what they thought and none of them more. I just say I I keep going back to this basic idea, the thing they all want to build these glasses and the thing they keep trying to sell this virtual reality. And glasses and virtual reality are not compatible.

correct? that's.

And so it's when I say, like is this the end of the V R market like you do? You have to make the turn. You have to stop doing VR games. You have to stop supernatural entirely VR.

You have to stop telling people that you're gonna on an airplane with thirty five hundred or vision pro and a battery packing your back pocket and you're to watch a movie in VR because if your eventually goals the ship glasses, you won't be able to do that anymore because you will be able to block out the world around you. And I I know I they just seems like everyone knows this problem is there is not a secret problem. This is not some grand insight.

They got a requires you to .

block out the world around you. But like, are you going to do IT?

Yeah, they just got to move headsets for the holidays. So so let's talk about the V, R part, because that's what kids can actually use right now. Yeah and salad.

And then I think that's always the plan is like V R, V R, V R. And then one day the okay, the glasses are ready, views over there. If you want IT, you can get that or you can spend four thousand dollars on these glasses and tea pay will be in your ear. And like.

can finally, finally, someone has a killer out that does not require your face or recognition. See angry t pain. The problem we fixed IT, by the way, I say this maybe one hundred times of your chest t pain rules.

And if he ever wants to come on the show, he's more than welcome. Just put that other we shock with threads really quickly just before we move to a break. There's just twitter and threads news in the world.

There is a war going on between israel and homos. The twitter did not do great in that circumstance. Every time twitter does not do great, a flood of people comes to threads, and then we all have to contend without a misery. Talking about news and threats, which he should just stop doing, does just my free advice emotionally because he keeps saying things like it's not that we don't want news, is that we're going to prioritize everything else. Anything good news is my priority is that makes sense to it's not that we don't want IT even though if you keep asking forward in doing IT and a boy you keep doing IT, it's just that I don't want to prioritize in any way, shape, perform and like you know that.

But silence, silence is good.

It's not that I don't want to turn up the volume on this channel. So i'm going to turn up all the other channels loud as I can so that this channels effectively zero. Like that's what that looks like.

Yeah, he needs to just stop talking about news until he actually has sub news.

I don't. I think he's since here. I like him, he before I have been before. I think he, since you, I think meta got burned by what you might call the great facebook and news experiment.

and also like burned to the world like this, is useful to remember that asking meta to do more news has not historically been a good idea. Like the earth. Yes, yes.

there's a lot of wreckage in what you might call the millennial media ravine. What's named? Some brands didn't exist.

Buzzed news, mike dotcom jet, like generally vice and its previous incarnation, just treat me all huge bets on facebook, news distortion or video distribution. You can just go look at the wikipedia page for the words pivot to video. We all live through IT.

And that was, facebook sent floods of traffic, web traffic, to publishers. And then they stopped, and they started saying, the future of the internet is video, which I will grant them. Broadly true.

That was true. People like watching video. Who knew? Uh, you can get IT from the streaming service, you can get IT from Alexis black server or you can get IT from a social platform.

And most people pick social platforms, so that's fine. But facebook like a LED, a bunch of companies off a Cliff, basically in terms of revenue. And I think adam doesn't want to do that again.

He keeps saying I don't want to over province in another delivery. Cynically, what you might respond to that with is then don't break your promises. That's just the thing you could say.

Think it's important. Remember, what people are asking for is IT like give us algorithms that controlled the news, which leads to all the things that happen when facebook did that. And they're not asking for pivoting the video or any the other things they're just seeing like give us Better hash tag support.

So if I want to follow something breaking in the world, I can and IT doesn't have to be bad. IT can be sports. And and so like that's the really interesting thing that's happening here to me is, is just a completely rolling all of that in together. And I like adam, I promise you whatever happening .

to marvel nfl is not the same as .

whatever is happening in the larger world with with conflicts and stuff like that. Like those are different types of news. People just want a way to be like, oh, something happening what yeah .

and I bit again, I think we've been burned by the city in the past, right? I think again, in no way as criticism of x the company, praise for criticism over the previous administration of twitter, the company. But I think you can look at and say maybe that coal company car was the best I could ever be, then we don't want to do that.

We want build something. I think there's sincere about that. All that said, I don't think that they're ever going to do news. I think that animosity says that do not do news over over again because I don't want to do IT. It's an end.

He's not saying they want you to onna block IT, although they have some very restrictive moderation policies that seem like they don't want like you can't talk about copy on threats really. It's just like not a thing you're are allowed to do. You know, I think they're to prioritize sports coverage and fashion and culture and whatever. And they will accidentally build tools that are reasonable, good for news. But the idea that the way that twitter was just sort of the assignment editor for the media in the trump era, I think they would prefer threats to not be that .

thing that i'm OK like. That's a kind of thing. We're okay.

yeah. We don't need that. There are other ways to get this.

And Frankly, having all of your your really good reports appearing is like a hundred and forty characters on a website is not the best way to deliver a lot of news. And we need to move past that. That seems yeah fine. Let's do that.

This is the time in the first where I start talking about activity. This is the point, and everyone is making a huge stake. You don't want twitter again.

That wasn't great. That just wasn't good. You just undamned tally .

bad was .

a great time for a handful of guys to be in charge of a handful of platforms that dominated our information ecosystem. So at the point, and I think that the Better thing to do is hold instagram and meta to their promises around federation and activity pub, which they continually say they're going to do like they are engineers on the platform and they're going to do IT.

They're representative to the w three seas on their, say they are going to do IT misery, says they are going to do IT zark berg, said, alex, a couple weeks. So there's y're going to do IT. They keeps saying they going to do IT, they haven't done IT. So you to hold them to that promise, and then you have to build products, inner Operate and allow you to dress the threads audience with news products, or allow you to build news products, use content from threats in new .

and interesting ways. I agree with that. I also think you just made the exact case why meta wants to do this, because met a federating lets IT wash your hands of every complicated thing that doesn't feel like dealing with, right? And so I think it's just going to be true that threads is the biggest thing in the federal sor, the open social weaver, whatever you want to call IT, like the day that does IT be the dominant player on activity of in probably will be for a long time.

And so it's still going to have the same set of respighi t ie s. And I think just to be able to say, it's like google saying you can use different search engine rape. It's just like it's not it's true, but it's not the reality of being like like most people are going to be on threads doing this stuff and like atomic arian, his team still have incentives and I think responsibility lie s to get this stuff right.

But I think like what what he means when he says we don't want to do news is literally it's like the the knob that says news that's on his desk key is going to keep daring IT down, right? Like your thing about turning out the volume is like I think it's surprisingly real metaphor. Like I don't think that's actually that far off from what's actually going on.

The question is, do you care more about like every Green suffer? Do you care more about real time stuff for right? And twitter, I think IT did write was IT found that baLance really, really, really well.

It's really hard to do the thing where you divide between what is good and what is now. And twitter hit that baLance Better than I think any other platform ever has, which is why I was so good at that. You could even go on the algorithm timeline and I would still show you new stuff. I don't think threads is ever going to push as far down that real time road ever as you did. I just don't see IT.

I have one question about all of this and was something I actually saw on threats. And to think I was maybe from years maybe response to ADSL, why are we focus so much on threads and how IT handles news and not focus on tiktok, which by all accounts are much more widely used platform, and how IT handles news? Because IT has a lot of the same kind of like concerns about like what you can and cannot say on the platform, but IT also has a much bigger audience and IT is actually actively algorithmically delivering that news ah whatever IT is to people, be IT accurate or not.

And it's kind of an above ious I found to like report when stuff is inaccurate on that platform. Like I just do a call out tiktok being like everything this man said is wrong like i've thought about IT. But like that for me feels that almost a bigger concern than what's happening at threats.

And it's kind of interesting that I think we all talk about IT here and I know a lot people in media talk about IT threads because twitter was very much like a media thing. Everybody on media used that. And then a lot of people have migrated to blue sky, amassed IT on now the threads in the very mat using IT there. And a lot of the discourse the conversation around news is driven by the media on that platform. And that is kind of interesting that we're driving IT there and we're kind of ignoring tiktok where people are actually watching yeah.

the news. I also think there's something about those platforms that make you feel more like a everyone is having a similar experience where I think like on tiktok, there's no pretense that what I am seeing on tiktok is anything like what either of you are seeing on tiktok, right? And so IT makes this question of like what is the colon tiktok experience really hard to talk about in a way that is more like participatory messaging, things like twitter and blue sky and now threats IT just feels more like everyone is in one place.

Whereas these other things, and I think youtube thousands category to like, you don't see on youtube what I see on youtube. So it's very hard for us to actually talk about the way youtube works because everyone's experience that IT is so different. But on a place like threads, IT feels more like everyone is there just because IT moves so fast that even though the experiences is are different, IT just makes people feel more like they understand that. I think.

yeah. And like there are universal experiences, we all got the sexy ladies for like a week on threats. And we're like, where are you here?

stop. I was like, why you .

here off you like a favorite .

up mine .

is just the nuked account. Like that was the most universal experience of all was the nugget count for like three weeks on threats.

But you didn't just actively interact with the sex ladies of threats to bring him back more often. You grip down, you want, oh, this is happening fine. And nothing but a man.

I've just said the thing, right? News is like, I here's another metaphor. You ready? Here's what the media is.

The news media is on threads. We're the mandoline players in A C, D C. alright.

It's not say there's not a mandolin playing a cdc. Maybe there is, you know no, but there's also A C D C. They're not kicking you out. You might, you might be. Jane went away on that .

in the .

back behind the drum .

kit and and .

is like like we're just not going to they don't get a mike. Yeah, that's that's all it's happening there and it's fine. It's it's a way to be.

But i'm just saying the opportunity, especially in the big players going to do federation get to hold to IT. That means you get to rethink all of web distribution. You get to rethink to be like giving trending topics.

So I can one to one replace twitter is like that. Just eighty bey thinking, yeah everything bigger if you want, if you're out there building a cool activity of product. Like let us know we're going to start over covering that stuff just to show people that people are building new interesting products that has be good. You can just be actually these crypt.

And speaking of activity pub, we should say the one the bit of activity public news this week was that world press now officially supports activity pub on work press outcome accounts. Unlike what wordpress is, is very confusing. Wordpress I comm is only a subset of wordpress and wordpress the company and word press.

It's like it's a light, but a lot of websites can now with one plug in and checkbox interOperate with activity, but which means you can actually push your content to these other places. And it's like that's what this is supposed to look like. Yeah right.

Like that that I think is very exciting. Yes, right. IT is a big start .

in narrow ly. It's well that isn't do IT. So if you have a blog you like running, someone can follow you on masted on and your post to your blog will show up in their massed on feed if they hit like it'll come back to you.

That's hugely powerful. You could see how, for example, of a large technology website had a quick posting format. IT might make use of such a technology, especially who is? Is my great to represent in the future?

Just an idea that I have. Just a hypothetical for you to think about. Okay, we should take a break. I want to get David perspective on his time in the U S. First is google courtroom um and then Chris watch is going to join us and talk about another google case which is is handled when.

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Welcome back to the verge chase legal hour or we break down the hottest station court rooms are in the country. We should just believe at the show tage crime, yes, but that's what does the numbers.

That is the dream of the people who run this podcast network. We do a text, true crime.

They stole my battery bank, and I been the next five years tracked in him down. Well, Chris watches here.

Chris, hello, pleasure. B.

Chris covers, I would say, on us the closest degree possible.

I think it's kind of interesting. You're here and not currently in the vents going .

to take a break here there.

So I want to tell what is going on with google. And there is a big ruling in that pat case like a remarkable really so when to spend some time there. But first, there's actually another trial, what's ongoing, which we keep talking about, ted states versus google.

IT is a trial claiming that effectively the deals google makes with other vendors, most notably apple, provide an illegal benefit to its search of way. And those fields are bad, h David, even in and out of that court, and if you've been listening to the trial, is really hard to cover there. There is no streams.

Documents and transcripts are hard to come by. There's been drama around that stuff. So we've just been, when we can, sending David into the court room and dc to watch things go down and watch the various witnesses. This last turn, IT made IT very clear that as goes apple goes the search market. And I think it's like underreported on under notice that that is like the heart of this whole case.

yeah. And ironically, this turn really started with such A D the city of microsoft, who a lot of people give testimony in these things, and they are prepared by a lot of lawyers to not really say anything interesting.

And there have been a few witnesses so far who I know have spicy hot takes, some of them I have written about on the verge dot com in stories that I am happy to send you links to, who clearly were trained to, like, sort to do the least in the court room sattin adela was not one of those people if you came out swinging and essentially began to make this case that being is bad is worse than google. But the only reason being is worse than google is because of the apple deal. And that sounds like this like wild, impossible to navigate thing.

But essentially what the argument has come down to, and a number of people have made this argument, and even google has sort of acknowledge that he understands this in a lot of the evidence that we would see in the exhibits that are being published. IT is essentially that if you can be the default search engine in savi, which google has been for twenty years, for as long as there has been a safari, you will get such market share so quickly and so many more searches like I, I, I have like learned how things like query flow work and basically the like fly wheel of the more searches you get, the Better the searches are. Thus you can make more searches.

Thus you do Better than you, more so on and on and on. And if anyone could break in overwhelmingly, the industry seems to think there would be real serious competitors to google essentially overnight. And that by not getting out of its deal with google or letting anybody s in, doctor go apparently was in negotiations to do IT for private browsing, which gave a wandering the CEO said would have been absolutely came changing for their business.

IT would have increase their their market share. I think he's at multiple times over. But like apple is the most for google, right? Like google has crime minute, has android and IT.

Turns out it's not illegal to like have your own products and your own products. So there's really no fight there. But this one deal that apple has, if IT gave IT to somebody else, the D O jays argument, is that IT would essentially raise up a serious google competitor out of nothing.

And because google is so rich, IT is preventing that from happening. And that's like that has become the thrust of the argument. Really fascinating.

What do you think?

I think it's true. I mean, it's it's hard to say counterfactual like one of the things that judge metal could a in search succeed, right? And there's been a bunch of talk about how the search market is considered like a no fly zone for VC. They don't even invest in IT because it's not worth IT. And so we ask him if I cannot start up win the search.

And then I thought about of first, second then just because what there's no evidence for that and his point over and over was he was like we are willing to lose fifteen billion dollars a year to apple just to get the query flow in the market share that comes with IT for being microsoft. One point thought about selling part or all of being to apple in order to fund a competitor that could actually stand up google in a real way because they don't think google being this powerful is valuable. Like there are a lot of reasons to believe that what a apple could essentially turn that on for somebody else.

But also we have no proof. Google has been the partner for twenty years like IT was in the very first press or release announcing safari, which they showed while I D Q was understand a couple of weeks ago, mentioned google as a partner and has been a partner ever since. And the terms that deal have changed. And so we've just never seen IT, like one of the things that is really blow my mind, as we've only ever seen one version of the search market. There's never even been in, like the modern internet, another world where there .

is if you leave this country that I also come out right in other countries, apple partners of search revolters in safari in those companies are fine. They like exist in our competition. Dex is very successful. Yeah yeah.

And to be clear, like one of the reasons that if you put something else on apple instead, part of IT was okay, everybody's using IT on apple. So that's just automatically they use IT. But I would also learn and get Better because more people would be using IT, right? So that's how I would compete or IT, just like more people using IT because it's on apple, is the natural of the default search.

the sort of universal truth of searches, that the best way to make a surge engine is to already have a successful search engine. And the more people use IT, like one way to think about IT is a big part of your job as a search engine, is to know when somebody spells something wrong, what they are actually looking for, right? Like that.

The big job of a search engine and the way that you do that is by seeing the queries that people get wrong and then where they go. And you can figure out, okay, well, they they typed this word, they didn't get where they wanted. And they typed ed, that word, which looks very similar.

We can put those two things together. And the next time somebody researches for this wrongly spelled word, we can get IT right the first time. You've just instantly, major, certain and Better, right? Like you just can't do that if you don't have the searches and everyone acknowledge this.

This is not like a secret fact. This is like how the search engine world works, is that the more search queries you get, the Better your ranking gets, the Better your personalization gets, the Better your spell check gets, the Better your they call IT. There's a Better term for IT than this, but it's essentially query rewriting.

So when you have been a query, what do you actually mean? Uh, are you looking for a shopping link? Are you looking for travel? They they do this thing where they take the words that you use, and then sort of boiled down to a set of words that can also be used conventionally.

All of that you can only do with the data. And the only way to get that data is to get people searching. And so like what nadella was saying as he's like, I don't want any of the money that comes out of an apple deal because i'm so convinced that the products will get so much Better that will make up the rest of the money elsewhere. And that like I don't think he's just spouting out of his act like that is the deal that microsoft is offered to apple and loss.

I will say there is a deeply funny google presentation that has been entered into the exhibits here. I bet IOS8.

h it's so good。

I think again, this is how long this has been going. Yeah so an I O S eight apple world out spot light so you just like pulled and do stuff and there's a deck and will linked to IT and it's in David peace. It's linked there.

But the deck is called it's a google deck. It's called IOS, a revenue impact. And the first heading on the first slide, bottom line is bad. It's like it's not they're just like they're doing less searches. It's a bad.

And then he goes into IT and like here's all the searches that apple is doing for itself now instead of sending people to us, the APP store and maps and wikipedia, all the stuff yeah and they're just like, yeah, we're just losing searches in revenue because any amount of any amount lost from safari is huge. Bottle is bad. It's it's like so funny.

Well, and that has become one of the new stipulations in google deal with apple as if I think twenty sixteen is that apple can do more in search than IT had been doing in two and sixteen, right? Like by the terms of disagreement, apple is not allowed to build a google competition or else is in violation.

This is explains, by the way, several years ago there was like I O N W VC, where I kind of back to back in a wwdc apple once, like some more search things in some version of IOS, this is post twenty sixteen. And then we went to IO like several days later in all, like all the google people like apple student search stuff now at the time, as I get they should, but I didn't realize like they're like, or are they in trouble? The garden passed the line and we would know because the deal was a secret .

until this trial. Yeah, I mean, we knew there was a deal. But like the the machinations of the deal and both how profitable IT is for apple and how exclusive IT is are definitely they're coming out in really new ways is really interesting just to say IT.

and we should move on to talk about sonus. I am aware that people think that google should will to pay whatever money tap rap wants to buy. And yes, i'm aware that many retail stores in have their own products. They put on shows and they pay for placement. You can make all kinds analogies and i'm just telling you that winning an argument through analogy is like kissing your sister like that's just fine .

and I don't care what you don't care.

Can I just tell you one very quick courtroom story that summarizes this entire thing very well at one point during thirteen, and alas, testimony, judge meta, who I wouldn't say interprets a lot, but he occasionally, like follow up on questions, are asked to clarify, and like he does a lot of sort of drilling down on technical things that either he doesn't understand, he went to the record or whatever, he at one point looks over at out in IT and says, okay, imagine your tim cook.

Why would you want to switch to being when it's a worst search engine? And that was the whole question. And like you could like google, you know, they have a table full of lawyers. Like you could just feel the vive in the room. Everybody at the google table is just like, years is IT like start and della getting up there.

Insane being is not as good as google is both A A case against google and the entire google defense, which is that IT is not illegal to be the best product and everyone is acknowledged that is that the best IT is the best product. It's just it's a very funny thing. We're like the Z O J has to do this thing where they're saying google is really good because no one else is allowed to be and google is just going to keep saying we're good and that's okay.

yes. And that's a really, really, really compelling achievement. Like being the best is not a problem and google is going to spend a lot of time when IT turns and becomes google chance to really give its argument. It's going to spend a lot of time telling us how terrific google is. And i'm very much looking forward to like that second half of this trial.

Yeah, I think google to be yes, speaking in google on a, on a high in the legal system. Yes, I mean, this is, this is when he comes to the pattern wars. This is a slam dunk. I swagger off the court is it's gotten a while, Chris.

what's gone on? H, so get this action to do. IT in court had a thirty two point five million judgment tossed out a by judge William am, also a one of the most tire profile judges loose covered who knows how many tech cases and profile .

we profiled .

them yeah and so he knows this stuff. He knows what soone is, how long we've been around. And if you read this rule, and it's really a super deep dive on zones and like different rooms and overlapping zones. And so you know, is the stuff. And so IT comes down to, he said that sometimes took too long to really you know, come up with these complaints and say, google is copying in technology. Thirteen years is really the time between, like their first application, and then when they said, you know, hey, google stealing our ideas and trying to copy me, mote remote o and so the patterns that they had included a rule to be said they were there are now invalid and also unenforceable.

And so in, like big, bold letters in the ruling is like a different font for the world, really.

Like is called a sonus, a pretender. And he says, google is the innovator, which is is a little harsh man. Like like sonus is the company that like has made this their whole brand. So if you like, that was a little little mean. But google innovate .

in this space. Yeah, it's a really good thing because .

I sely this whole .

case the entire time we ve heard about IT, we've been covering IT and said that always seemed like sonus was kind of in the right google used and the .

that got through.

Now yes, this case has a .

bunch to twist turns. The heart of IT is like, not patterns. yeah. And I this has always been and we had patric spence at the time, SHE council on the show.

We talk about why you would do google and like they're using their patterns because they're mad about something else yes, which many people have many feelings about. What are they based? Went to go work with google, and I immediately undercut them on business terms. They released, put out cheap .

speakers that cost forty nine dollars, right?

They immediately undercut them. What cheapest speakers are, copy their.

So they did. The thing that every big company has always done to small company .

is they can replace google with amazon. And so this is just as mad, but I am is on let's just like it's like there is where position where they need access to voice assistance. Or they at the time they did and they just ended up really upset down the cool, felt cool then.

So then they said, well, look, we invented a bunch of this technology, are going for long time, want to sue google for pad infringement. That will create some leverage in google. Inevitably settled because why wouldn't in the reit? And I was like, more or less the story.

yeah. And three years later.

google did not settle and send us, won the judgment and google appealed. And now I set is like what the quote IT is wrong, that our pattern system was used in this way, this the ruling with this construal entertaining ings. The system is intended to promote and protect innovation here.

By contrast, IT was used to punish and innovator and enrica pretender by delay and slight of hand. IT is taking a full trial to learn this sad fact, but at long last a measure of justice is done. I mean, it's a good. It's a lot. Yeah, you would think that I was a murder trial.

you right? Like what is so nice to do to this judge?

Ah so this judge is like my fucking speakers keep disappearing. Like that's .

what he had to do. That transition from sonos, verging one to two.

that he was ready to like a measure of justice for the so does play three, I don't know, and IT getting for google. It's thirty million talk that google sneeze. Is that money we just talking about like a ten billion doll deal of the apple pain? But anyway, so now google one, they put out a statement that is just.

yeah, I was taking a Victory lap and sing, the pant system needs reform and this and that and so on as came back and to the same thing course. But I still to keep on fighting google because they are trying trying to protect their patterns and innovation and they're in like get royalties, which I think is the main crux of this whole thing is like they want all these six companies, like pay them roald for their technology and like multi room audio and what not. And that's curtly not something that google is will budge on any time soon, as we've seen.

And so three years later, there is no sign of a settled there's no google assistant on the new sonic speakers still, which I think is a word experience for customers here. Customers always I always suffer there. And I think mean concern n about these companies.

Cheaper speakers. I google, amazon really don't care about audio as much anymore. And like the next audio came out three years ago and like goole isn't put out a new speaker that was good.

I think about the voice is something that was just that knew it's martial, right? That has both assistance on at the same .

time I think 是 J， B. That is both things. Said one, like they would not, couldn't do that, biggles, on terms they weren't allowed to do that. And so now we see IT happening on this other speaker. So you know, I think it's time to hopefully settle because I know has its oh.

there's no way i'm so it's kind of at long last, a measure of justice is done.

There's no .

satellite happening here ah just .

like sono there. They're safe. They have so much like any best buy your target and there's like a so section there. Like there are a small company well compared to google, compared to google. Yes, like this like small company like David is is galia thing is like know there are a pretty sizable audio company company to like whim or win. And what's that brand that Chris person loves a lot?

Like yeah that's a small company.

So so is a bit larger than that. I was .

Chris earlier this week. We went and visited a studio or dolby o showing up how they mix in utmost. And their test product was, uh, an area three hundred, right? Was actually funny because I was a prototype and had the word prototyped like printed on IT and I was like Chris head, every part of the scoop accept a picture of a prototype of the word prototype.

But like but that's IT like the the recording industry is like in on sonus. That is the test product in like test. No, no, it's true. I don't think amazon products are like huge successes in the audio world. The google products certainly rented.

sonus says like the move to which I know that these brands really have their own version of. So if you like, sonus is as a business is. Pretty secure. So like at least you know like moved towards some kind of resolutions early for the benefit of people and customers who want google system on their sona speaker.

And you know I went to originally sued google. IT was not as a secure right as IT is now right? Like like at the time I was very much we are fighting an existence al threat from amazon and from google. And we do not know how our company is going to continue. And if we don't figure that out, we're .

screws, I believe. Is that see yes, I think we are in vas. When the lost IT hit and IT was just before, we assumed both companies would announce a bunch of stuff yeah and they bunch stuff you know see in this first chases like google products in last long time is like looking back where like we're they are going to stay committed to the next audio? Or could you have just waited?

Well, I think that that was a curiosity was like, okay, this is probably almost certainly not going to be as good as whatever so one does. But is IT gonna keepers and then push zones out that way. And so zona is shrink and shrinks and said zona is like feels like it's kind of turned to do and well, apart from this.

well and take. But IT seems like they didn't just become a pantile. They invented a whole bunch of stuff.

Yeah, in Patrick pences been on the show a bunch of time. Mean, like th Epace o f i nnovation w e n eed t o p ick u p, need to go faster. They're a early kate. And now before Patrick showed up, they were on like a one decade case. Yes, you know so I think they did the right thing there for sure.

This is you should read the it's like a fun read yeah to read this ruling because he's just so much so anger any of um I I think there is like an equal amount of mad at google that you could be because they didn't should like seventy eighty percent of cases setting. And if you're google, IT is probably Better to settle and move on and also have google system be available on all kinds of devices for what is peanuts in the scheme of google. But it's a fun radiation and like a measure of justice is dead incredible for for a multi zone audio pattern lawsuit.

What's going on over their bill? You're right. Yes, he's still missed to play three like air three hundreds out. It's a replacement.

Seems very nice.

IT sounds great. Chris loves that.

I do I do like most of their products. You know google and amazon speakers are found like echo studio. It's fine.

It's been sitting there are like untouched for like three or four years now. So but that sounds nice. I just think those companies clearly don't care about audio as much as they want to.

I like apple, like there's one coming that so I should be like pretty concerned about its apple at home pod d and like airports like headphones that they were getting. headphones. Obviously, that's going to be a hard to climb personas to do. And I think there will be like .

you know some kind .

of apple sound bar at some point seems .

like very interested with their terms or it's it's going like it's going figure .

out how to sell you extra .

eye oud storage, the product they will never make IT like you.

The trouble like letting use two home pods is like e arc outputs if and like make a proper sound.

They did that like they did that under the rest. Then I got damn you like straight up like enough people just annoy them about this thing and and like probably feel shelter in his house is like, why do I have other speakers, you know yeah but actually assam no way, zero percent chance they are not interested .

in the market 位置。

A A wager apple will released a cheap vision pro before they released a bar.

Okay.

oh, you're gonna some money exchange.

Important prediction.

You think they're going to make a sound bar. I mean.

what's a cheap and pro? We should really get into thousand thousand that shit.

I think .

I think for a product of vision product.

I think I still feel pretty good about some kind of like apple TV for a case sound by our home part. And can you know .

one of those things connection? Is you an important .

stipulation is .

you only win if apple calls IT a sound bar, which is never, ever, ever, ever, ever will.

Another cold chance.

who knows?

There is a zero percent chance. Apple, I just want to be.

So one thing i've been .

thinking about that with .

IT seems like one of the things that happened from when they ruling start, from when the trial started to today, is that the stakes for audio seem like they've gone way down. Like if you rewrite a bunch of years to when this all started, we were in this phase where, like voice assistants, we're going to be the next big thing, everybody going to use them, that they were going to be huge businesses.

So now is under pressure to, like, be part of this because the idea is you're going to speakers all of your house and you're going to talk to them, and that was going to be remain interface with technology. And like that idea is not dead, but like not alive anymore. And so now we're back to the speaker business.

And google and amazon have no interest in being in the speaker business there in the there in the business of getting you to use their assistance, but they're even getting out of those businesses like amazon is shutting the alex A T. In a big way. Google is gonna put barred into assistant, but is already like pretty clearly providing the way that he thinks about that as a tool. Like we're just out of this phase where speakers are going to be the center piece of your home and they're back to being speakers. And I think if we're going to go back to speakers, that's probably good news for sonus because these other companies just aren't gonna care .

that much of that. yeah. So that's like why keep fighting this battle?

Just you know, I think at some point, if you're google, you're like we we can go down this road because then we're going to end up paying royalties on everything every time we screw over a small tech company and were host like the fight for them seems like it's on like pattern principal rather than the specifics of this case, right? Where as zones like needed this win a lot more back then. But at this point, I don't know like I don't know how big sonus losses here.

Onus has got a fight because they got oh so hard in this judgment, like.

oh.

sure they did. Yes, if I got only little hard, I would fight even if I .

knew I was gonna go to lost this court to appeal to the court, right?

And so there is this case, and there are still several others at other than one of the I, T, C, where they want a few times to ban, 嗯， very old. The google products that you can have been buy anymore, as is usually the case of those lawsuits. And so others, other counter suits from google and next several countries. So it's still just like a very like, very angry food that seems to have no sign of cooling down anytime soon, which seems a little silly ate at this point.

Well, now that measure of justice, I don't know why, don't say that all deserves a long road. There is an appeals court. I love the idea of our current supreme court being made deeply. Consider multimedia.

That's all I want. David, just sitting in that.

oh my god, a pile of sound bars has arrived. The justice clearance, and he didn't refuse them. Oh no, I can help you if my friends are on a jet in love.

So around we can take a break. We'll lighting around that. We will get out here, will get back. This episode is brought to you by google geri with the german I APP. You can talk alive and have a real time conversation with an A I assistant.

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Our back slightly around time alone start yeah there's .

a the way a number of people .

who told us that we need to change lighting around to USB c around. It's not .

a papal sound.

It's also it's not named after for the poor. I don't not .

multiple that.

just a now this is the PCI around.

get ready a riddle.

It's the thn I wrote for around. Okay.

go sponsored by the, oh god, sorry, gotta pay .

money for that me here.

And someone, someone.

if you want to pay us to sponsor the thundering foreland, not say no ahead there, some journalistically integrity there, this transparent disclosure, I will accept money if it's funny.

all right. So the SONY P, S five, it's got a new SONY P, S. Five, just like now.

Now you can go by one. And that IT is a perfect time to be like, no, we ve got no one's coming. It's been rumor for a while. It's smaller, it's slimmer. IT should actually fit in most home theatre setups, which the current one doesn't OK.

I I would like to quiver with that particular assessment.

This thing you probably have an ugly home theater set up.

This thing went from being proposed ously humongous to very slated less human guess.

Yes, I think there is a big on the side actually by j Peters, that the slim P, S, five is still huge.

So it's it's a chunk. It's smoother now it's much more like straight forward. I have sr on lower the rings now than IT was no.

no, but it's twenty four percent lighter, which I think is very important.

My computer system will be sacked about that yeah.

this is the thing that you put down once and never never touch again.

I'm just like these are the spects they gave us and this is what the .

proud you seen the stand for horizontal mode.

I didn't know you're supposed to use the current .

one with the stand and whole time .

yeah to fit in my home theater system, I had a clear .

say that sone picked in and picked another shape, the incompatible with most furniture. Yes, yes, just like h this is far a rectangle to help with you. But the little stand to be horizontal is not a stand. If you're yc, a little pig is like a little pig like I know .

I just like stuck like something under there.

There's the stand can detached the optical drive, which is really yeah yeah.

The optical driver, I think is most interesting. This is about like tom morning when he was looking at the sic. Oh my god, that's so cool.

And like, yeah, IT is cool. IT looks IT seems fairly elegant. Way to to do IT because you can now go same Price, twenty four percent lighter, thirty percent smaller by volume. Hey.

that those are how people consider game consoles actually is five. I'm going with thirty percent smaller by volume.

That's what you should have listed on like the the costco website.

The best my water displacement is going to go so far down.

I still feel like physical media is like slowly dying here. Like this is like an optional like optical drive. You can have IT if you want IT if you want to watch four cable blue.

I like that new x box. That league taik has no more drive in there any mornings. I feel we're still learning towards like a gaming world towards it's like all digital.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're getting rid the the drives, but the drives are actually important. They're good if you want to watch dvds in in U H, D, blue rays and everything like only three people in the world, in the world in this room. Yeah would do.

But it's a little cheaper, right? Like it's four fifty starting for the digital the disc one and previously was four ninety nine for for the digital free one and then the the new base like model with the drive R I install is going to ninety and nine, which was the old Price for the disk free ones. So that's kind of ice.

And then there's going to be the displayed, which is eight books additional and integrates kindly neetly go look at IT on the website. It's it's cool. There's like a little video IT shows the integration and IT is cool, yes. But like you should also go to look at jays story about how much smaller is because like thirty percent volume does .

not actually track to dimensions yeah you you again IT is also .

a shaped is incompatible with the most things .

you stack on IT just slide off is horrible I think.

Yeah yeah Chris, we got my pick of the week .

is the speakers on the pixel 8 pro。 If you have won a pixel over the last few years, you've known that google, for some reason has put like all out speakers in their phones the start of the picture five, they had somewhere like vibration motor that like made sound. And then they went back till like standard speakers for the picture six and pico seven, but they were tiny and hello and just sounded like absolute trash.

And so since the picture ate pro now costs one thousand dollars, you would hope and pray that the speaker is decent, like I don't use my speaker at on, but if i'm been bad, you know, playing a podcast or watching the video, I wanted to sound decent. I don't want to spend a grand on your phone and have that sound like absolute garbage. And so finally, google, i'm happy to say here's a speaker that sounds comparable to the iphone, not quite the level of the iphone fifteen promos, but you know in that ballpark, which was certain at the case last year, yeah the year before that where are the year before that?

My wife has a pixel six. And I mean, just by virtue of like what I do for a living, I have four hundred thousand speakers in this house. Uh, he said faster, refuses, sees any of them and just plays everything out of her phone. And the rage IT has filled me with in the last two years as he has had this phone of how bad IT sounds all the time. She's just like, oh, we're going to like put on some music, what we have dinner and like there's a zona like you're connected to the onus and she's like, not I just cast through .

his OK what's kind of speakers I get so but speakers and seeing she's like, I don't know this in the cast my phone and there's a world of possibilities is exist for you. No, no part test .

my phone yeah so like to me, the speaker upgrade might be the single most important thing about the pigs of eight. And I will probably be be buying anyone as resolved very in for a good phone.

And IT doesn't get that hot anymore, which was pretty concerning .

about the person real part of this generation of phones before they get real hot when you first .

buy him to be careful that instagram, the heavy resource intense .

about i'll make mind quick. There's another trial that's happening right now. Same bank, when free is on trial for the fd x, which is called flood.

I think I think it's like very, very, very obvious what happened here. Uh, in liza poto is here in new york. K, she's been at the course final reports every day.

IT is some of the funniest coverage you've ever had on the site. IT was at full force in terms of being a writer. So just a funny is writing we've had on the site. Her last headline is a bank when freed was a terrible boyfriend. I mean perfect just like perfect just go read IT you're read IT all she's doing IT basically every day um there's like an army of people waiting, just like waiting for her edits at the end of like the courtroom day um it's all very funny and they do did IT I don't like I don't want to turn this into too much of a three crime podcast but after extensive investigation I can exclusively reveal ah that F T X H was a game and I was obviously the entire time and crept was a raud.

Michael gna, find you and fake you.

That dude, have another hour. Did you see to think? Michael luis, he wrote the blind side, that book, which is now in substantial of controversy.

But he had a state, I think he gave any view time this week. He's like, I wrote my book for the jury. They should read my book and it's like, no, they should do the trial might be substantially Better use .

of money pretty good. okay?

Really less is coverage is great. It's really fun. That was my David.

What's I would just like to very quickly um appeal to samsung and google to stop being so embarrassing trying to convince apple to support our CS oh no.

Do we have to disclose that deter bone former host of the very chest regularly tweet that. Focus on our CS. Sure you go down this.

This deeper is right. To be clear, google is right. Samsung is right.

Apple should support R, C, S. IT. IT is a Better system. S, M, S is like a technological disaster that should no longer exist.

And we should stop using a silly youtube videos from major competitors are not going to convince apple to do anything. In fact, I would argue that every time samsung, google say to apple, do R C S R, you won't be cool anymore. Tim cook, just like, I don't know, throws the cat out the window, in my case, know whatever he does .

thrums like cat out the way I bring me another cat. Sam songs added again, the cat room.

yeah. I think now samsung's whole thing is like wear bubbles too. And it's just like it's not going to work. Go go pick through a fate with Carriers, go try to like covertly destroy from the outside, like pic, pick anything you want or just like wait for the E U. To make apple, you know, interOperate with all of the other messaging apps and really find .

IT just seems kind of sad. It's like all the teams are leaving our phones. We have to like.

come up with these ad campaigns, but to happen and they're doing IT wrong, and I would .

like .

them to stop, do have a messaging APP the people like to use .

and stick with IT for .

a number you should call IT G H, an APP, which people firmly believe that they used in loved, but which google ever made.

I know, I think ella was the way that .

was the .

my got to that.

how to saying and google doesn't have money. You just got you thirty million dollars back, just gave a very five box. It's fine.

Should do IT you you'll get a substantial user base. Just buy books at a time. That's how that the bc did IT.

Couldn't they just put IT in the next search deal with IOS? Just feel like OK will I use our search?

But also tim cook is going to throw so many cats at the window, bring me a time. Lift, right? He's a fit man.

Yes, he is. He can lift a large cat that can threw a large tiger OK. Please send us note with your thoughts on how large of a cat, tim cook him lift.

I go to the gym like five.

Yes, I think it's a larger cat.

Yeah.

right. But we got to ended here. I would also accept A, I generated images of ten co large cat just putting out in the world.

You got a manifest what you want, you know? And that's what I want. Send him to us to the vercheres we love hearing from you. Uh monday connectivity many series comes back uh with beeper cove speaking messaging beeper cofounder erik mj costi who is uh a long time front of the verge that some me really exciting a David's got installed er which can I reveal this state David.

I am sure maybe .

well over ten thousand amazing people love subscribe to that. And then i'm not going to tell you what's happening and coder because I don't know, but I think something very exciting is going to happen and coder very soon. That's that's that's for sure.

And that's IT for the bird cat this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at eight, six, six bird one one. The verge cases, the production of the verge and box media podcast network. Our show is produced by Andrew marino and leon James we'll seen next week.

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