The Apple Vision Pro review
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Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcast, a variable emersion. I'm your friend David piers, and I am sitting here updating a bunch of apps on my meta quest three. So I tend to go kind of in and out with VR stuff.

I had a long run of doing workouts and supernatural. I was using the thing almost everyday, and I did. So I didn't that for a while.

And then recently I got really into the assessments, create game assets, creed nexus VR. It's super cool. But then I had one of those moment to being like a cap. I'm spending too much time with this game, time to stop.

But recently, i've been picking this thing back up because I want to be honest with you, i've been having some formal so this week is the week apple's vision pro comes out. We've been waiting for apple's A R V R mixed reality, whatever you want to call IT. Thirty five hundred doors had set to come out, and it's coming out this week.

On friday five second, i've been hearing from people who preorders. I've been hearing lots of ideas about apps that are going to come out IT seems and it's just making me feel bad cause I don't have one. But you know who does have one is new life p.

tel. The verge is evidence chief and my verge cast COO host. So we figured for this episode, we would just grill nei about the vision pro.

He spent the last few days writing about IT testing IT, trying to figure out what this thing means in the world and whether it's worth you're thirty five hundred dollars. So we got lots of questions from you. We have lots of questions for you.

I alex and I are going to spend I mean, potentially like many, many, many hours asking me all of our questions about the vision pro to figure out not only if it's Better than this thing, the quest three that I mean right now, but if it's the future, is this the next thing? Is this where we're headed? So that's what we're going to do for the whole rest of this episode.

It's all vision pro all the time, all week because IT has that week all that is coming up in just a second. But first I feel like I just guilty myself into doing a workout. So i'm going to pop into supernatural for a little bit, do some boxing and then we're going to get to IT. This is the verge cast. We'll be right back.

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Welcome back, right? IT is nine ten A M on tuesday, january thirty, which means ten minutes ago was when the embargo for vision pro reviews lifted. There's a bunch from out there.

Our friend mark has Brown lee has one. Our friend juana stern has one scene that has video, is watching. I Justine has a fun video that I was just poking through. There's a bunch of good stuff out there, but before the review publishes is actually one of my favorite moments, especially being sort of inside the process because you go through all this testing and you have to decide what to make of this thing, not just is IT good, not is IT cool.

Does that have to meet features, but is this a good package? Is this worth buying? Is IT worth the Price? And I think the chAllenge for us and from watching some of these days for a lot of other folks, is to figure what to make of this thing. Everybody seems sorry that the tech is amazing. There's just no question that apple did a lot of the things that was trying to do very well.

But to what end? What is this for? What is this thing about? What are you supposed to do with IT? Why does IT exist? These are the big like existential questions that both as a reviewer and as a person thinking about buying a product like this, you have to think more about with a first generation device like this.

IT seems like the vision pro really is the first of something. But exactly what that is and where it's going and whether we want IT is hard to know. So about twenty four hours ago, as i'm recording this, we SAT down with new light.

We dragged them into the studio in this, like is of doing all of the review stuff and tried to go through that before the review publishes, before he'd seen anything else, before we've gotten comments on everything. I just wanted us to sort of pick brain about the review. So for the whole rest this show, it's gonna be just me, alex cranes and nei patel.

And we are going to go deep on the vision pro melias review, how he felt what I was like to use this thing and a whole bunch form. Let's get into IT me tell welcome hello x hello hello me I we would talk about jd life status. We've all reviewed gadgets, all three of us. And I know that this is the point of the process where IT can either be going very well or you can be growing a lot of things you've decided about your life and decisions you've made IT in the past that have LED you to this moment.

Hey, feeling, I want the audience to know that David has chosen to record this podcast with me at the most vulnerable time.

For any reviewer, this was very much on purpose. Yes, it's right now. IT is twenty seven hours before embargo.

O time. yeah. Which is when everything about everything you've ever done in your life is suddenly opening here.

Just to give people the context, i've had the vision for a little less a week. It'll be six days when you hear this apple security arrived in my house. The vision for last week, I was pretty intense.

And we've had IT. We've been using IT. This is the moment in the review process where the video was shot.

It's being edited. The written review is mostly written. Its in edits. And i'm just sitting around waiting to see IT from right, which again is the most vulnerable part of any review like i've done. I've said what I think, here's what I think and then tomorrow it'll get published and even at me and who knows but so David is like, this is what I wanted talk you.

which is mean and unfair. The perfect time.

Yeah I feel I feel really good bit .

and you can hear IT. We've been pull in basically all nighters for a week. And and I hope you can hear IT in my voice.

I think it's been a so in an effort to make this easy on you, basically, what is going to happen here is we have a long series of questions, some of them from us and some of them from listeners. We asked for questions on hot line and in the email and on threads. And we got to like a billion of them.

Some of them are very weird, but basically sort of at the top here, we're going to go through your view, like beat by beat. I just we have a bunch of questions are going to talk about them because this thing is weird and complicated, and we're going to sort of wind towards your big feelings about this at the end. And then we're going to get into a bunch of questions week up from people, something 3次yeah。 okay.

So the whole first section of this is called is IT good and we're just going enable of things and we're going to ask about if it's good. And alex, you should obviously ask all the questions. I'm missing lots of stuff going on here, but okay, we have we have a bunch of this. But the first one is, is wearing .

the thing is IT good, medium, okay? Medium is heavy. IT is not, not heavy. Everything about this product is a fight between what apple wants IT to be and what IT is.

As i've been using the thing, there's a very clear gap between apples ambitions and dreams and the product that they can make. And the product they can make today is the best version of this thing that anyone has ever made. I want to be very clear about that.

The headset you put on your face, we look through lenses at a screen no one's ever done. I like this. IT is very good.

IT is obviously not the thing that they want to. Their ambition is just a way out ahead of the reality of this product. And the reality this product is that is heavy ways more than an eleven and ipad pro one and ipad pro for seventy grams.

This one is somewhere between six and six fifty, depending on its configure. Then there's the headband situation. Were the really cool one, the one you want to use, the solo band with the ridges in the back, in the wheel design.

the first key gages look.

yeah yeah it's like and that's what i've been using. Its fine but there there's like not a lot of affordances in IT see like the back of your head. There's like a orridge you tear neck like those are in different spots in different people's heads, but there's no like kings point so if you just get what you get, like the thing just compresses around your head and wherever the back of your head lines up with your eyes, that's what you get.

You know it's it's like there's just that there is the fact of the thing is there's not a lot of afford insist to wearing IT and when you're wearing IT, it's hot like IT gets hot after a lie and maybe that's you get hot after a while. Maybe it's IT get hot after a while, but you're like i'm wearing a big happy thing on my face and he just take off. And then when you take IT off, you're no longer looking at screens. You're just back in the world and you know like, oh, this is a very nice.

The thing that I remember, especially with a lot of the early oculus and quest stuff, was there was that feeling where you would take IT off and you would kind of like scrunch and stretch your face because you would realize, like your forehead and the sort of bridge of your nose had gotten just tons of pressure yeah, as you're wearing. The thing is that the feeling like is, is this sort of the same thing?

Yeah, especially on my forehead OK. I feel like after a long you feel like your eyebrows, you're just working like just started doing the thing with your eyebrows. I'm just going to lift to with my face a little bit more and then you monkey with the fit.

It's not the worst. Like make the decision to take the battery out of IT to reduce weight. I understand why they made that decision and it's fine because the thing is such a stationary product, like in its way, the batter shoes my table when you're find. But IT is like they had to do IT if they'd, the Better three hundred eighty three grams or something, they'd added in another three hundred eighty three grams with this be disaster. So IT as close as they can get IT to be comfortable, but for a long duration time, IT is not okay.

Can you expand on IT? Being stationary doesn't mean you're just everything you do and that you're just sitting still.

Yeah and I talk about the quest all the time. The quest wants you to get up and move and play beats sabor and supernatural. And there's games in the quest are like virtuality games.

So like i'm going to run around a viral reality. I do stuff. This thing is like going to sit down and a look at windows.

Those windows could be every, but like mostly IT sit down and look itself. There are surprisingly few games for this thing that feel like you need to move around. The only one i've seen is super fruit linger, which was in a demo, which is not even out yet.

So I ve even got a chance to play super fruit inger, which is very funny. And I haven't seen a single VR game yet. There are some coming, right? The things supports unity. I'm told that unity developers across the industry are working very hard and bring games will see that to be seen. But all the games are now are mixed games or just like a game board is floating in space.

Yes, this seems like IT is big and heavy in the way you would sort of expected to be big and heavy, but not like worse than a lot of other things like it's just a heads up. I feel like so much of this and I was expected that thing you're going to the apple would love for this, not to be a headset, but it's a headset.

IT is super headset. You're going to ask for these questions about is IT good. And the frame for that all of them is like, is this the best headset ever made, right? And the answer is almost always yes, but it's a headset, yes. So just add .

for emphasis for a headset to all of the questions about to get you. Ah the next one is the displays. Are they good? This seems very important.

They are displays. This is what I mean cannot. The displays are incredible. They are a triumphs of engineering that you can't see pixel.

The pixels are smaller than red blood cells right to seven point five microns thereabout the size one of those very cool and totally meaningless like kd bd, like. And then each of those pixel has three RGB sub pixel. This isn't like a pentire pattern.

It's like straight apple calls that s tray being a look at a photo. It's RGB for each subject s so each of which can be individually controlled, like the engineering of this little display panel, two of them in each device. That works when you're moving your head around like i'm beyond impressed, but then you're looking at them through lenses and there's just the reality of a display in alone system.

So the lenses have specular highlights or what looks like specular highlight. When you look at something bright, the lenses have color fingering, like Green paint, color fringing ing around the edges, uh, that if you look for IT in certain condition is just gonna be there. The lanes are slightly yet did the lens is are slightly distorted at the edges? I asked apple about this and this is they know like they're like we're doing a bunch of hard run suffered in in mies of expert as they were.

They said something you like, as you're well aware of displays and lands, as you are obviously familiar. These problems OK. Here they are. Uh here's a thing that I I keep thinking about and I actually really want your feedback on whether this is important. Not apple spec for the display is ninety two percent of the DCIP3 color gaming， which is an incredible thing to put on A Y page.

It's hds a new liba right there.

G C I P three is like, you know, high and color gaming for cinema. But IT itself only represents like fifty three or fifty four percent of the color of your eyes can see. So ninety two percent of D, C, I, P three means the displays can only show you forty nine percent of the color of your eyes can see like a this, what, you know, i'm a display.

Yer, I don't care on a laptop for a fun like this. This stuff I think about, I like reading about if you're like asking me to look through IT all the time, i'm like what you just threw away fifty percent of the color information in the world. I don't know how, like I emotionally do not know how to comprehend that, right?

Because in every other context, I just don't care because I can just look around. So the plays are incredible, like I don't want to overdo IT that this place are incredible. They are a triumph no one has ever engineered or ship displays like this at scale. There's so just think about how tiny those fixes are and then you, oh, they are still displaced.

right? Like you never forget, right?

You never forget, you are looking at screens like the most screens. And in the reality passed through is camera ed. So there's just a motion able, even a bright room when you like, look around, there's a motion bar on the display es.

You you just can't overcome the inherent nature of cameras and displays. So the questions like is, are the displays good? This really a question.

How is the product design to be used? And can the displays do all the things that you think they should be able to do? And the answer is, they are the most incredibly space over.

They are trying for engineering. You are still looking at screens and being asked to perceive reality through screens. This is a, is a tall ask.

yeah. So we run, I feel like, for this first run of this, when this technology is new to most people and knew to like existence, that feels like a somewhat acceptable trade off, right?

Like we're we're gna hit a point where, especially with something like this, if I am looking at my room and then I put on a headset and suddenly my room, which is still showing me, is different, that feels bad in a way that, like I turn on my TV and trees don't look the same color they do up my window, but they are like different trees in a different place in my brain understands that that's a screen. Like your brain is not supposed to understand that this is a screen, right? Like that's what success looks like is that you forget you're looking at screens. And for now at least, IT feels like i'm looking at screens and they're very good. Like just the fact that you didn't even mention how IT feels to like read text on a web page feels like a Victory to me because that means that was fine and that is to me at least for this first one that's the bar is like, can I look at stuff and and IT seems like we're there.

You can read text on the way page that refresh rates you can go up to hundred hurts again. Incredible technical achievement with, yes, this place, not even a hint of boy, I can imagine how this this place could be Better like incredible technical achievement with these displays. And when digital information, right, windows videos, mac meer, like all that stuff looks good.

But again, the display es are being asked to pass through reality in your eyes are Better than screen and cameras. And that is a historic problem. Like, I don't know that we can overcome that problem.

Well, I was going to ask, is that, you know, when you think of A R, the two kind of most successful, amusing, big, scared clothes here, most successful ones have been, what magic leap in hollow lands?

I use the .

scare quotes, guys. I use the scare. Is the experience just that that that interaction with the real world through this headset? Is that Better? And in those systems.

what's fast name on both of those is one that failed, uh, to a there's like no AR happening in this thing. No, no, there are exactly three A R things that I ve seen so far. And by A R I mean digital information layer over the real world, where the real world and the virtual world interact.

Alright, so viral reality, you just in a virtual world, you do not stuff in virtual world. The real world does not matter. Mixed reality is what most people have experienced, what most of this is.

We are in the real world that you just like put up virtual stuff. But there's no connection between the real world and the virtual world, right? right? So i've got windows, safari.

Windows are open all around me. It's not they are stick into the wall. So like they're just like floating all around me and then that bubble can move through. The pastor, that's it's weird but you like that's a mixed reality and that's what most people are familiar with and that's a lot of this the three A R features i've seen so far in the vision pro to which I think are historically important, like we should go down as footnotes in the history they are one, when you open a mac laptop and you look at IT and it's your a laptop in your cloud, a button floats above the screen that as connected h .

that's that's good.

And you can can just reach out and push IT and then your mac display mirrors into the vision probe. incredible. That rules too when you are typing on a bluetooth keyboard and you look down IT knows where the keyboard is and IT puts a text preview window above IT so you can look at your fingers typing on the keys and see what's been typed.

So instead of having the text box like way up here while you're looking down to the keyboard that brings the text box down to the keyboard.

i've got a big google dock up there. I'm typing away and look down on the keyboard and I can see what i'm typing so I don't like move my head and clever and IT IT positions that box correctly near the keyboard and shows you what you typing. That is a true A R feature, right? yeah.

Ah there is a connection between what i'm doing in the real world, in the connection, the virtual world and they've and that is amazing. Again, I think these are like the first mainstream are features to ever ship historically. The third one that i've seen is the loading screen for super fruit ninja where you can throw a strawberry to pig, uh, that's running around floor uh, that is not even shipping IT. I only saw that in a demo that apple gave me IT feels less history. I just going to say I don't think that is quite as historic.

I feel like this is true. A ratio of the thing where I can put an nikia couch in my living room through my ipad.

But that's what apple has been demanding for.

I know that the only feature idea anyone has ever had until this thing and it's .

it's just not here. And I asked, and you know they like game developer are working on this like you know the most chat word of this thing is this is a development yeah and so they're onna build. They're yet to come. And I think that if you want to be really fair to say that how you think about IT but apples positioning everything, the thing they are asking you to do the ad they put out is like people wearing IT. Well, they're just like hanging out doing laundry and a call comes in and you're like, what is the value of wearing this if it's not doing anything for you and the value should be a bunch of A R stuff, not i'm waiting for the fonterra. There's again, there's a real attention between the ambition of product and how it's been communicated in the reality of product.

yeah. Okay, that's good. So and I think this is really did we've kind of half ly answered IT, but the next one had written done here is the past through is IT good.

is as good as any pastor can ever be. And I think pater is a dead.

Okay, that's essentially what I wanted you to say. And this is where this is what we getting the questions about like optical A R and the question of like what are these things exposed to look like in the future? And one of your heavy horses, which you've talked about a lot on this podcast, is like A V R headset might be the wrong direction for this because eventually, if it's going to be glasses, you're going to have things like preferable vision and light is going to be able to get in from the outside. So they like even the best possible version of this thing we're trying to do is not the thing. And and he doesn't seem like using this has changed.

Remind on that at all. It's displays and cameras. Ah so you've got a thing over your head and then there's a camera looking at the world for you and it's showing IT on display and that just you already, if you're a verge casts listener, you already know a bunch of stuff about cameras in this place, just also notes this from being around the show sorry, in low light.

What is a camera to do has to increase the ISO or increase the shorter speed. That can increase the shorter speed because they need the late and see to be so. So you can tell what it's doing, really ramping.

I so and doing a much news reduction. So in low light, things just get the world is less sharp. I walked into my bathroom wearing the day and turned around and I couldn't find the light switch.

Oh, wow, right. I was just like two dark and air for me to see the lights, which I so there's a thing that happened there. IT is incredible pasture again IT is the best that has ever been done.

The consumer device IT is the best that most people have experience. Alex, I don't know about the viro had said you've talked to about add similar with that he was my editor and this she's like that's an enterprise products is way more expensive. Like so for consumer heads, this is definitely the best passed with is our shift IT might be Better than the virus, but the are aimed IT enterprise application is just a different thing for a consumer product.

This thing is the best you will get. And IT can do things that no other password ever thing can do. I can just use my phone with no blooming like apples.

HDR video processing capabilities are incredible. They're doing in a real time, which, well, the midst seconds of late. Cy, so stunning technical achievement, you're asking you to a place reality.

You've set the bar so high that, like, I don't know that I can be crossed. I can't sit here and imagine how you could make cameras and screens overcome their limitations. Did like a real weight, like maybe noise reduction canadian even Better.

But you have to make IT fifty times Better for this to substitute reality. And so there's just when I say it's a dead end, it's like this is as good as anyone has ever done IT and IT feels like optical. A R, still the thing you want where light is just passing through some glasses, some men zz, and the screen are being put over. And that's really hard. And I think there's a reason apple ship this because no one has gotten that.

There was some technology. H not that long. I think that might have been self driving cars that somebody described as like really amazing. And three physics miracles les away from being possible. And I feel like there are some of that in here to that. It's like the things that we're doing here are incredible, and we fundamentally have to change the laws of the universe in order to get to the next thing after .

this that that feels that feels correct with this is it's kind .

of like robotics, right? Yeah, we always expecting the robot to walk like a human, but actually humans are really well made for that thing.

Humans are not well made for mounting hardware on of your red set on your face.

I have found myself wondering ly and talking you about the thing many times, who like plutonic ideal of the vision pro, where is and like what the measurements of their face are, because, you know, there is like, there is a head in there that is like just crushing IT with efficient .

proof measures one years to make airports. I asked if there was a maximum head size, and I was told we have not considered that, but there is a maximum hair size wow, it's crick g if .

you've bigger here and crick.

it's like it's not like a small IT is very large but there are some sort of .

maximum hair size. We have to find the maximum here size. This is now the first cats main go. Alright, let's keep you on audio, which I think is a sneakily important and kind of under discussed feature of all of these headsets. Uh, is IT good.

It's great. No, no complaints. IT is very loud, and the spatial stuff is really cool. When you push the window, I watched the nc championship game youtube TV in the browser on the thing last night.

And as I pushed to the browser window away, the detroit lines got father and farther away from me. You know, like, that's cool. IT is a very loud.

Everyone around you can hear what you're doing. So if you are in a public place, you should wear that. You should, in particular, where you should wear second generation airpower s pro. You can use any bluto head funds you want, but the second generation airports pro get all of the features so they get spatial audio, they get lower late and see they get forty eight kilo her top like you just want .

to use those also feels like the right you don't want big head funds with this, like you don't need more weight on your head. Your yeah okay, but in no notes you're a guy who cares deeply about this stuff. You you're good with facial idea. You're happy about this.

yeah. I mean, I am sure if I had more time and sleep, I would have notes on the audio. But no, no notes.

Everyone has just been sneaking up on you for several days now.

But again, there's not again, because there's not like A R experiences or even V R experiences. That thing hasn't happened. It's just windows are playing audio at you. I was on a face time call with joana and markets. We could look at personas and boy, and they there p three characters sent like they were talking to me from where they were, which is cool.

Part of that is really cool.

one more. And then we're going take a way and then we're going to get into some other, like how you use this thing stuff battery life is IT good.

You're relevant. That's my answer is fine. Uh, it's two and f hours. We haven't had a chance like to a battle run down and not even sure I would want to subject. And you want to do batra down.

And that's what I mean by, it's irrelevant if you are in this thing for two and a half hours. Boy are you gonna feel that I can. I just, I personally cannot imagine a situation where you want to be in IT for that long.

I know joana war IT for like twenty hours, some enormous I don't know the actual number is is uh as we are recording this, i've not read her review, but when I had talked to her on the face time call you've been wearing for five hours, i'm very worry. I love her to pieces as a she's one of a very closest friends. I'm so worried about her.

I just can't imagine a situation where you wanted hit the battery life. And then because that is so station area IT feels like I could be close power. Now the one situation where I could see that being a problem is a plane. But then you're sitting so you can just like plug in a Better, I like you will be fine.

Can you hot swap the batteries? That's a question. We've got ten a bunch.

You can not hot talk the batteries the batteries um it's a mechanical which connector is very satisfying. It's like a big cyber deck y twist connector you and that lights up the batteries. A motion sensors when you pick IT up the light glow Green or orange is a very apple.

There's no button to tell you the batter that has a motion sensor, thirty four, ninety nine, you can do anything so you just picks up and glows, but you can't hot up from the headset itself. You can just plug in on the battering to over U. S, B, C.

right? Let's take a good break and then we're going to come back and talk about the punch of the easier have to use this thing.

We're write back.

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right? We're back. Next one on my list. I think we should get into the like life inside of the headset thing.

And I feel like there are too big parts of the how you use this thing that really sort of define whether this thing is gonna or not. I guess the first one is, is the eye tracking. So eyes tracking is a good.

This is good as anyone has ever shipped I tracking.

I just can start playing that for myself at the beginning of everyone of these answer.

Which version of toby does that really like perfectly replicated?

Just tell me with two ice .

IT is the best eye tracking and that anyone has ever ship. It's not good enough. This is i'm just gone to keep come back to this and it's going to be frustrating until you use IT.

It's the best the first time you use IT until you use IT. It's hard to even for me to explain what i'm talking about the first time you put IT on. And we so many of us have at that time, it's magic.

You look at stuff highlights, you click your fingers together. If you get IT wrong, I got you have to get used to IT right. Like that's the experience that you have in that first demo.

The idea is basically like where your eyes focus is a cursor is sort of the way to think about IT, right? And you're sort of moving that curse around with your gaze and you look at a button in order to you look to click on that button, right. Is that like there's that a reasonable way to think about the metaphor?

Yeah you know of the ipad curr kind of snaps stock, right? So you just sort of like if button are big and you want to generate .

the highlight .

fascinating thing. This is one I think visions OS is designed for I tracking that is slightly more precise than actually is like that's how IT feels. Probably isn't IT tried designed to be exactly. It's apple, right?

Being like the buttons are like a little too small, little too close together.

IT just to be one super dumb example of the keyboard is like ridiculous, like fully like they needed to have a keyboard and it's there, but there is no way they want to use that keyboard for any serious text input. The keys are too close together.

So you're excited there trying to look for one letter to another and you're just like, I hate, I hate this and then you should give up and you would like to take to siri or you connect a regular keyboard and use that keyboard. There is no way you should use that keyboard. And part of IT is IT is just fine.

Fundamentally ridiculous of IT is just the buttons are too close together. And you will sit there to trying to look for the e to r and the system just like won't let you and i've never looked at glitter as hard as i've tried to look at a letter. I'm looking at IT man and bring .

a thing like R, R, yeah. And the .

sometimes easier thing to do is to look completely away and try again, right? And maybe the thing is like, and I can't quantity fy IT, maybe it's ninety nine percent accurate, but that one percent just like in IT.

But IT doesn't like wiggle like toby would sometimes kind of wiggle. IT wouldn't quite register your eye.

is the best tracking has ever been shipped. This is what i'm saying. This is the best anyone has ever done. IT, without question, is the best anyone has ever done. IT know a keyboard on a computer is one hundred percent precise, but right, you push a button, that button is pushed every single time. Multiple one is actually not one hundred percent.

Processor is a lot of algorithm happening to make a touch screen appear to be a hundred percent precise, like a lot of work has happened over the past a decade to make those such means feel even more precise. But they appear to you to be a hundred cent precise. And when they are not, like when auto correct fails, which is the experience everyone has, you are utterly frustrated, right? When a touch shrine goes dead and you're jabbing at the button, doesn't do anything who got awful right? That's the worst.

But most of the time attacking appears to be one hundred percent like direct input control. Eyes are bad. Like you are just constantly looking itself. If you don't want to look at or like you're looking at the biggest thing instead, the play button is the biggest thing in the video player. And I constantly wants to push the plus ten seconds, but my is very big that play button this.

And so i'm just looking at the wrong thing and that is it's the best thing that anyone ever done IT in IT went at e's line was IT works until IT doesn't right in my version of that is IT feels like magic until IT is not yeah and there's it's just a binary so I just connects to handle action. Which thing is your next question? Probably yeah, the hand tracking is exactly the same way it's magic until IT is not and particularly, what's not is when I can see your hands, which like i'm sitting in a table right now, if I just had my hands on my lap, I couldn't see my hands.

This is a ridiculous complaint. The hand tracking system needs to see your hands. No other computer stops working if they can see your like, if you want this way in primary computing device like your and IT has to be able your hands, if I, if you're just standing up in your hands by your sides and if you like me, they can like, fall behind you still working.

And so like, it's the best. It's everyone. Ship, without question. IT is the best. It's everyone ship.

IT just hits the wall of reality, which is, the thing is, not at your eyes, in your hands, are not actually controlling this device. Cameras are watching your hands in your eyes, interpreting them in turning that into input. And that interpretation has real limits.

So like to keep IT fully functional at all times. You have to kind of like keep your hands up at all time.

No, it's a pretty big bubble around IT OK. So like if you are, it's basically like you slice your body in half, it's the plane of the body in front of you like all the way around. So if you're sitting on a couch in your hand over the side of country, IT mostly works.

If you are anywhere, anywhere can see your hands, basically. But if you, if it's really dark and you are lying down and the I R. Fly bites on my front can't sort of like reach down and see your hands and let them up.

The cameras can see your hands, so can use it's like you're just going to find all of these places where, like if you are meant to wear the single of the time, they will come up more than you think. But in most uses that feels like magic, right? It's IT. The IT is absolutely magic until IT is not only. The other thing that's funny is that IT is always using your hands as input.

This is well as about to ask about like if you had to train yourself to be aware of your eyes and hands in ways that you wouldn't be wise like you. Anyone who has ever watched the verge cast on youtube knows nearly never, ever, ever stops moving his hands. You touch the mikes, you're moving around. You're gesturing at step, are pointing at things like, are you like aware of these parts of your body in new ways after using these devices?

Yes, in particularly at to sit still when I write script for decoder, for video like this, I talk is I write to make sure I can read what i'm writing and that sounds good and flows. And I moved my hands and I talk, and I was just scrolled in all over the place by accident, just whipping windows around for years and just click on stuff. And like I I got to keep my hand still.

Some people do not secure the ands is a very personalize complaint. But if you do, you're going to notice you have to sit still unless you want to do something. And then the other thing is that you have to get used to the controlling linked to your eyes, and that is not how you use a computer. How many times you look at something on screen and just banger on the area keys to get around without looking at the area, the vision pro, you have to go look right. That just like the simple example, a phone where there's a little bit more collapse between what you're looking at, the controls, how many times when I opened light room and like move to slighter back and forth while looking at the photo to see how the brightness is changing at whatever on the vision pro, you get ta look at that brightness slider. Weird, weird.

Does that feel like that friction could ever go away for you? Like at some point you could see yourself doing IT more naturally. And it's just you had five days with IT.

Yeah had five days of in vast apple about this particular thing is a big philological media design yeah question right. Should the control of the thing be directly link to what you're looking at? Or should those things be disconnected and know, obviously, i'm asking this.

I'm just wandering the street being like what is the the central nature of input is why I love you. I love talking. And they're like, you get one, you get used to IT.

And two, that is something only you put on the system, right? You can connect blue to keyboard and track pad. You can use siri to do all this stuff like we want to expand the range of computing inputs beyond the mouse in the keyboard. And after five days or six days, i'm kinds like what the must people are historically undefeated. So yeah, good luck.

You know like I agree that the one that's missing there is like I think there's a way of looking at the vision pro that is sort of an a malgamiters of all of the technology apple has ever built to do anything all in one device. And the one that IT feels like it's missing is multi touch, like it's it's surprising to be given all of the stuff in here that there isn't a way to reach out and touch the button .

on the keyboard to type. You can.

you can punch one .

finger to type mult touch OK, right? So you can register big movements of the hands I want like big is the wrong .

word so you can type on IT like a .

typewriter and you can hand back and you look silly and it's slow and it's not a harper snati is that but you can do that right? Like um we don't have optic ID set up on hours because other people like the video team is constant using A. And so everyone puts IT on and they punched the code into a interesting, okay, right? And said I was doing to think because it's just just a big phone key at what looks like a phone key head shows up in funny and it's very funny to watch every do this every time I put on.

okay. So that is a fallback option, at least makes me feel a little bit Better about this. I do think there is a thing that the eyes tracking IT just adds another step to everything you want to do.

You, the example I was give to people is like your muscle memory knows where all the applies are on your phone. So like if you if you had to think about looking at an APP every single time you wanted to open IT, IT would be annoying. And it's just your fingers learn where things are in a way that is useless to you on the vision pro.

yeah you have to look thing. I'll give you another example. Actually multi touch examples are really good one. So a quest rate of controllers and every VR company love is being like you're a DJ now they just love IT didn't you know in my twenty is I like i'm b DJ, right? We go through this.

We had that .

moment in all subsequent decades.

still A D i'm playing the night at samba. In the quest you have controllers in your hands and you like look at tribes r which is the DJ up on the quest, uh, in its floating space to reach out and IT shows your hands and don't show the controllers pushed the button and IT looks like you're grabbing the fatal.

And then after tera, while your brain kind of remap you like, oh, i'm actually grabble this fator actually twisting this knob, and your hands are doing some controller stuff right there, just like gripping or pushing the but the trigger button. But if your brain is kind of remains to that thing, vision products in half, it's got taps. So you look at a nob and you tap your fingers and drag IT the same way you do anything else.

And it's like i'm not there's no connection between me physically interacting with this floating deck in DJ, which is the vision reversion, is the way that in tribes s are. It's like i've got a controller and pushing buttons on the controller. And because something tactile happening to my hands, that looks like something tactile happening over here, like my brain, is just a rewiring to be convinced that is actually happening.

Now can I DJ in any of these apps? No, absolutely not. But the vision pro is like because you're just tapping your fingers to get, it's like you're clicking. The difference is very much between, I would give you the differences feels very much like the difference between a touch Green and a mass where a touch room feels that could directly controlling some pictures and a mouse is like a click on stuff.

Okay, so sort like when you're on a touch screen and you're trying play and like an intent du game on your phone, IT feels like garbage. But the Younger people are just used to phone screens so they don't hate IT as much. They can play for tighten stuff. Yeah.

I watch a max plays minecraft on her ipad and my power. Are you doing this? Yeah.

so a great time.

yes. So maybe the Younger people are gonna fully enhances any refund. But it's that it's that control dynamic is you will feel that in a way that again, that is the best as ever been done is a good enough like I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if I can ever beat IT has to fifty times Better.

But where can I say this thing please? Because I haven't given this a score yet. We going to spend all night debate in in the score.

I think shipping a thirty five hundred dollars puter whose default input method is not one hundred percent consistent. That's a full point. Yes, that's a full point, right? One hundred .

percent and one out of every hundred times you hit a key IT is made up a different key to do. You would not like that keyboard.

Yeah, there is all these other affordances and whatever, but like.

that feels like a full point. Yeah, I need of my review and e inc. device. I have to like knock off a point because it's not going to work.

All the type that sport you typed three letters and then four seconds later IT types two of them and then something else OK let's get to the the two main use cases that I think we and others have identified for this thing so far and you you should add to this list if there are any obvious big ones that I missing. Ah but the first one is using IT essentially as a monitor for your computer, as A A thing to attach to a mac and do stuff with is a good yeah.

that's really a good caveat. One is really good. You put, especially if you have a laptop, uh, you push the button.

The thing that I really enjoy doing was putting the virtual display over where my mac display had been. My macbook display had been in the making IT really big. So then you like, I have a fifty inch mac with pro. I used like room, it's cool. Like that is cool.

So it's like you of your back on your desk and then a giants like TV size monitor in front of you.

right? But like where the macbook display is.

can you do the thing from your mac where you have like a bunch of windows spread around the room or whatever? Can I put mac apps in all those places? Or is that just fish pro apps?

You get one single mac display. You can have multiple mac display. As you can know, a lot of people want to do what you can do to much less good effect with quest.

And that's right. Like there are apps in request that you just let you have more to. I assume there will be those apps who those improve, but by default.

And with all of the cool eyes cloud stuff that you want, which is really important, it's one display, by the way, cool I oud stuff magic. This is like an ipad on your face like it's a very easy way to understand what's happening here. And the cool ipad stuff that uh contini can do is amazing in this context.

So you're using a mac in this window and then you scroll the mouse on the mac track pad over and IT turns into a vision processor. You copy from the map in this window pasted in the vision program over here. And IT just works very cool.

alright, so that's that one. And then the other one is basically using IT as a TV entertainment system. This is the one I think, alex, I are both the most theoretical ally excited about that feels like I could be the most immediately useful for people. Is IT a good TV?

Super good. Good, very good. I watched way more of top gun married, and I want to end Better way. I watched IT on the trade mail, two point seven miles an hour, just walking up the hill. Very sorry, I did not try to run as like, like, but as I can.

I take a slow walk watching a movie on the best city I can get in near a trade mill. And the answer was unequivocally yes. Very cool.

IT does this really cool when we put IT in environments where the light from the TV reflects? Unlike the mountain, it's just all very cool. The coffee and I will give you is IT supports three d IT supports high frame ate.

It's the only consumer devices for hyper mate 3 so you can watch avatar with water at forty eight frames per second and three， I don't know, that's good. That's a James Cameron was like, you can live that life. I watched five minutes that, and I was sick.

I and I know, like, i'm pretty good at V, R. Like I do. I I play ground trees of R, V, R.

Motion does not drive me too crazy. This was like really too much and I had to take them off immediately so I would just be careful. And there are no garden rails anywhere in vision of us to how to be careful. But the one that i've seen um is if you take a space al like A A first person video and there's a lot of motion in IT, IT will detect that there's a lot of emotion and be like be careful watching this one IT does not say be careful watching something interesting. But if be your own video is sometimes say you .

should always be careful watching the way of water, no matter of the circumstance. Ces, always be careful.

A, B, the T, V, I got the thing that I will too cover. Its there one year alone. There's no you even if like three of you have a vision for together, you can sign up. You can't look at the same thing at the same time. I think you can manually sink them up, which is sad if you find yourself with like three people wearing a vision pro counting to three to hit the play button on.

just buy A T, V, like the thing on a plane where you you try and hit play on both screens at the same time.

Good stuff. yeah. So like, but there's no in in O, S, thinking of that something.

I watch the thing which is weird, right movie or someone social screening and then to you can't screen cord, what you're seeing like does not just dear and that shit out and I was like, this sucks like that to me being like I was, this sucks s like a huge part of the experience of watching shows are as a chacin p social media, whatever and you can't weird it's your eyes, right? You're like i'm seeing this look at our cool, the lead on the mountains. I can't show IT to you because of copyright restrictions.

Weird ah i'm sorry for laughing.

It's weird. It's weird to be like, oh, like Bobbye his dr. M, to my eyes, I like that .

very black mirror feeling like, just get thinking the episode where SHE like gets her, her husband out of the way or a boyfriend or whatever. And they just feels like these these headsets really equipped for that.

but not a pleasant way. weird. Man, yeah.

it's weird. Are there any like big picture use cases other than those two? Those are the two people seem to mostly ask us about and also been have been kind of imagining since this thing. First launches, is there anything that like leaves out to you is equally big to those two things?

No, to be perfectly bone. And I think the next thing is um I want to see how people actually react to IT like it's cool and I was really cool but two hundred six fourteen is not enough like my sixteen Frank pro is more resolution that right? So it's good to have a big like editing and lightning and huge is great.

But on the sort of reality the resolution is, actually you're going to find yourself out IT. And then, you know, t TV like some of that stuff is really cool. Um but as I watch and play us last, there's no fox sport APP to screaming for k and I was watching youtube TV I undern new. P fox, huge. It's like you yeah you .

there there is a part of me .

and i'm just a shameless plug for the TV that I convincing myself was not an extraordinary arly forge purchase. You can go by an ice OLED for far less money and then you will have a really nice TV that you can take pictures out if you want to share something.

But then bob eggar will come to your house.

Then, bob, he is like, like, i'm not busy enough, but I need you to stop doing that.

Just cuts the corn off .

one more before we take a break. And we are going to do some listening questions and we're going to get out to here the vision pro.

good division pro is the best version of this thing that anyone has ever o which .

two apples credit has basically been what IT has been saying about this. All all right. Like the answer to why is this thing thirty five hundred dollars is because IT is the best one of these we can make.

Yes, without question, IT is the best version of this headset that anyone has ever made. IT is unquestionable still of your headsets and is a primary computing device. I do not think of the air headsets are IT.

Maybe this thing just proves that point to a lot of people, right? IT is weird to be alone using a computer the way that this thing makes you alone. We have been even touch about the front display.

You know, the big thing about this is best to make you not feel. One is the front display showing your eyes. People, we can see them most of the time.

There's its super dame. And that glass is really reflective. And mostly people like must be seeing something like like it's my eyes. No, I I think is that actually maybe .

a good thing that you can see that most of the time they don't look at.

they look at totally a look. C G, it's a super lower as display in there like i've seen the part know in a breathing you can like it's just a great of pixel, like a sports stadium screen or something. Or this sphere, god bless this sphere. Here's a question. Would you rather live in the vision pro or live in the spheres and the answers?

This sphere OK fears a little more expensive, but you know it's okay.

but it's a truly dim. You can't really see the ice. Ah you're never making anything that actually looks like guy contact, like it's just that's not happening.

So like you're just alone in there and like this stuff that I think is really cool like, yeah, I was walking around the cafe of our office or as huge and I just had windows all over the place in there, just windows for days, just like over tables floating in space and was just walking around looking at stuff as like this rules and no one else could experience that with me like other people just saw me looking around point in. I just think there's something lonely about that, like really intensely lonely, and I would rather not have that experience. And so I think VR is great.

I think i'm A V R heads that user. I love playing gratian's of V R. I love supernatural. Like there's single use applications, mostly gaming that make a lot of sense to like have a focused lonely ly experience for using an ipad.

No, I like half the time, and I look at this some screen to someone else and that is really hard to do. yeah. So IT is the best version of this that has ever been made. But I went through and looked at every tim cook quote about the r for the past decade, and his complaint about IT always has been VR as isolating in my i'm here at the end with holding the thing and I get VR really isolating.

Yeah I mean, that the like big question. I think we're going to spend a lot of time talking about and covering over the next few years really is, is the vision pro like the end of that arc in which we realized that's not where we're headed? Or is IT sort of overlapping the end of the arc? What is actually the beginning of the next thing? And I think apple wants you to believe it's the beginning of the next thing.

But what IT built looks more like the end of the V R. arc. And I think which IT turns out to be is gonna really interesting over time.

We here that there's a real danger reviewing a first generation apple product.

Yes.

I feel IT right. Like nobody looks back on the first generation. My quest review is like they got like the first. And apple product, especially when you're in a tiny gover reviewers, people look back on that and like you've got IT wrong.

And I know this is a rest to say, but i'm going to say this, this feels like I will convince ce a lot of people that some of these technologies are dead and bright. Like if you you can try as hard as you want, you can be one of the richest companies in the world. You can put all of that capability.

And there's a lot of this thing that feels like apple made IT because only apple can make IT like the giants just looking for a fight in, found one. great. I think that's so cool.

Like I I have no coins that go get IT, but that means if you look at this device so I oh pass through V R does not actually subset for the goal, which is optically are where you're just looking into your pair classes and the computers put stuff of a reality like that's the goal you got to get there. And this thing there's there's no path from here to there. And I don't know like that's my big take from this thing, is like IT feels a gabble needed to build a simulator of the computing experiences that wants to build. And if IT talks about that way, that might be a little, little more chair of there like show they're add, is like people just like doing laundry in IT. It's like not that this is not okay.

Well, by the time you're hearing this realize review is live, the video is live, go watch IT, go read IT. We're going take a break and they're going to come back. We were going to do five minutes of quick questions and we're going to.

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I were back, so I have a big glass of questions. Uh, thanks, everybody who called in, emailed and posted with questions. We've answered a bunch of them already, which is great. So are just going to through a bunch of things we didn't already. The first one is a hot line question from jail.

Hi, my names is joe. And about the apple vision pro. What does the thing smell like while you're wearing IT me?

Like we ve got this question so many times, I cannot tell you. How does that smell?

I need to know.

I don't know why people ask in this question. Here's my insertion. The airports max out of the box had a smell because they were like manufactured in china and shipped over here and like they whatever particular process on the fabric, I think has a smell.

So there's like a tiny with of that immediately. Want to way will they smell after you sweat them for a while? I don't know. OK don't know yet. I do know.

And I was on my face in the video review, and I conceal, and I got on the headband and I ask you something about this. And she's like, that's covered in my review tube interest. But here's my question. And you want to aware a computer that messes up your hair with time use that do you want to wear a computer that messes up your makeup every time? This is A A different bigger question um in that stuff might smell yes, like ones you cake this thing for a sweat makeup okay.

alright, that's a good rest. Next question from math. And we talked about this a little bit, but I and IT seems like the answer so far as we'll see. But he asks, is there any gaming use case beyond playing on a virtual screen with an express controller that that seems like you can just do now, right, like you can play games kind of from a mac or in theory, from game pastors, fara, whatever. But have you, is there any other gaming stuff you've seen that Spark something in you?

Uh, no. I mean, the games are all like ipad games. Three, I played what the golf, which is really fun, but it's still like it's in three d right? So three days inherently you just looking on to so like there is built, its its virtually pull back and luo um there's nothing like nfl pro era or like and these big V R games, they are to come. I'm told they are to come, but nothing yet.

Ah and that's actually a good same way to another question that we ve got from kao who says I wonder know what ipad ports are like and if there is any jam inss with them both and how they work in the general U I basically like apps are just ipad apps that they track the checks x to say, put on the vision pro, what do you think so AR .

and I think IT is very telling that apple ship to bunch of its own apps as ipad apps. Fascinating ipad apps is on for your fingers. And so the eye tracking is even more frustrating.

I had ups because all the targets are even smaller. They work. There's no, there's no not working, right? They work. But you will and you will realize like oh, the same way that putting a mouse and keyboard experience on a touch cream can be frustrated.

I was just can say, like have you ever attached a mouse or one of the keyboard attachments on the ipad with the track pad? It's like IT feels cool and also like IT was clearly not designed .

for that yeah and you can know if you have they send me a magor keyboard to that. I had a lot that all looks like ipad. Of us saw all the same stuff.

They're total usual. There's no particular warehouse there are except if you're using hand and I tracking, you will quickly discover the the absa design for not that and sometimes shows up. I think it's like barely criticism, like it's just obvious what happening.

It's Better than like when all the iphone apps came to ipad and is very clearly like just the iphone out big.

H, yeah.

that's a good. It's way.

way Better than OK. Okay, good. right. I have another hot line question. Another one believed or not that we've got multiple times from .

ray a difference brain is the question about the vision pro. I wonder what happens if you look in a mirror with the vision pro on with A A U M like IT does well people, or would the recognize you're wearing the vision pro and that do IT? And what happens if you turn on the fake eyes but you consider you a person that can fade into? thanks? This is one of the first things that why do you .

think that was the back .

you look crazy because I just see my own eyes right ah so yeah he does show you and nice but I can't tell if IT is because that things are not a person. If IT knows you're looking yourself which like a weird there's a computer no, i'm looking at myself is like that's another two hour.

I was yeah but like nothing horrible happened. Like you're still here. Now you look in the mira.

you're still here. Like and this is.

Uh, okay, cool. We got a question from andy basically asking about multiple user support questions about OS and software adjustments for the hardware. Is this a device you can functionally share with other people?

No, absolutely not. The only affordable is something called guest mode, where you say, put this in guest mode, uh and then lets you limit what apps whoever wears heads set can put can use next, and then lets you limit whatever up so the head that can use. And that's that's what you then in the new years, first to give IT to someone else to do a tiny little bit set up just to line the displays.

They don't even do the hand tracking set up and that's IT. And then it's like you can only use so far and go back to you, you like you up, but there's no multiple user accounts, nothing IT. Is this thing is an ipad, right? But the same way that ipad doesn't have multiple users for this.

Do that feel like IT hiding that lonely experience for you?

This is my computer. Like you give IT to someone else. You, my computer now, weird. Yeah right. By the way, particularly weird thing about that is know there's a object idea so someone else should not be able to along your computer.

But because again, his other people are using IT for captures all the stuff to make our video. Other people can just be my persona, like they can make face time calls on my head and all how is designed just the reality of how we are using in today, which is wild. Yeah.

talk about the person's first because that was something we had a couple of questions about to this idea that if I make a face time color, I go on google meet or whatever wearing this, that it's not showing a camera version of me. It's showing like my avatar, what's the verdict on personas?

I will say what markets said when we did our face and call for video, this is very impressive and also bad. They're bad there. Like if I shot up in a meeting with a persons, I personally feel like that would be insulting.

So the personal just replaces the front facing camera, right? That's how you should think about IT apps. Don't know it's happening, they don't see IT, they call for the front camera and they get your .

person um so the vision projects reports to whatever APP you're doing.

This is what the web can, this which is faster in a great hack like brilliant, right? And then know you do the scanner is your face. They look like pr characters.

It's like we are our cr s in j and I call and I was like my case, this looks like you're about to give me an item that will help me fight the boss like that's how IT looks like welcome to my store. Like, uh, in any game you might play, uh, they are they're uncanny. It's weird that they have decided that everyone has the same tongue, but you don't scan your tongue, but you stick your tongue.

You have a tongue. Weird, just weird. Like someone in apple is like, do a tonk model will just use IT for everybody .

do a tg like someone .

at a job just a gene Simons tongue .

for everyone yeah so you .

can see different times. You're always in clothes IT looks like you've just had the worst botox ever. I can take a call with our creative characters withdrawal to look at some design stuff and is like, i'm so used to looking your face and these calls because you are looking at something and know that your face betrayed more than you always is like I can't this is not useful for me so yeah I the apple is in beta.

There's a reason it's in beta. There's a reason that haven't shown at anyone like is not good yeah like there's a long way to go like you know for I keeps saying that has me fifty percent, but I can see how this can get fifty percent. It's very office. Okay.

you are right. Two more then right here from Jessie. What is IT like looking at real world displays through, pass through TV.

pcs, phone, smart watches, eta. Find the right. okay. I I can you and last .

one from iron rush, who asks a, is the digital crown really useful to gradually transition between vrar? I don't see any point where a person has to be in between the two modes. They could have just switch back and forth.

So using IT, you will quickly discover there's a lot of times you want to be in between the two modes. Because if you put windows out in space and they are going through walls or things, I IT screws their brain. So you're like, here's a portal into depth, like here's a portal into a big desert landscape.

And so instead of walls in front of us, like depth, and now I can put windows into that depth while I stop the room around me, and I can look around h, so that is very useful. This is an inherent right, is a big compromise over like should this be A R right? That's like i'm creating an a virtual environment to solve the problem of A R in this moment and then you want to your former number on the but like that halfway setting you I ended abusing a lot more just to create that depth for the O S.

Right now. I you have to go um you have now twenty six hours to change your mind about everything I said more questions.

We will do more of these. I I know people going to infinite questions, oh, for sure.

And we yeah, we're going we're going to cover this a bunch. We will talk about IT more on friday. So we have a lot to do. And I think especially as we start to see more, we're gonna talk a lot about this.

So yes, I think we have a lot developers have to basically make this .

product word for sure. Yeah, so called the line eight, six, six version on one email first cast first, I com will put realized review in the video, the show.

Thank you.

Alright, that is IT for the verge cast today. Thanks to new line and alex for being here. Thanks to new I for breathing all of these days and his deep vulnerable state and coming on and document of the vision pro.

It's the sacrifice is we make. Everybody also thanked to everybody who sent in questions via the hot line or email on threads. They were all great.

And please, like me, I said, keep them coming. We're going to keep talking about this. Talking for a while.

Will also put links to realized review in the video in the shown note. But we are covering the vision pro in every way we can think of. So keep IT locks in the version that comm lots coming this week.

This show is produced by engine marino, liam James and wilpon. The verge cast is verge production in part of the vox media podcast network. Mei alexo be back on friday to talk about new web browsers, much more vision pro stuff and everything else happening in tech. We'll see you then rock or.

Support for this episode comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Hey, it's lee. From decoder with new IP top, we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

For instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What part are they buying? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you're listening to you right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with this acquisition this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech can hire away cofounded ers? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with new life presented by strike. You can listen to decoder wherever you get your podcast.