The problem with Telegram
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Hello in the verge chest, the flagship podcast, the book's palmer fan club.

Again, might be true, like legitimate might be true.

I have one. I've brought a lot of gadgets because of David recently. And I don't know that those are the right decision.

Well, you can't read. We should say that up front. Me, I famously illiterate.

I hate reading. Hi, i'm a friend in I, I, I love reading. And I think you should do more of a David pierce here hi Alice crisis here.

I'm just think about reading .

rainbow now you know it's a when a small child do like in reading again that's a real thing and um which what max want to with me most is called in .

in hobs which is I love IT the .

dream that rules have you ever tried to read calvin and hobs out loud to another person who doesn't understand the jokes from the literal thousand and eighty she's .

like what's a talian governs is definitely a cartoon for adults like IT is not in the jokes in IT and like the messages in IT I find like deep, important, profound now and i'm like very old and I don't know how to explain any of that to a try try I just .

if you have a kid and you're like, here's suo we can do we can read combat together. We were at already own all these books and we were at in a state sale like down the street from our house. And we bought the full collection again because I was so cheap.

And as I this is what money is for, like this is what you make IT to buy all the carbon hot socks, whether they're available to you. And so he was successful. We what appeared to hear to be comic books um I encourage if you have children to try just try to read any comic sure.

Like first that's bananas and then these are like the multiple like, i'm giggling. She's like, I know is is the tiger alive? I don't understand.

Get in on coffee.

He looked to me.

man, um SHE looked .

me very serious and he goes, my life never comes life. And I was like, what they're grown up, kid.

you're in first grade now yeah in your binary max about that.

right? There's a lot going on this week. It's kind of a were two weeks out from the iphone event.

It's I keep joking. It's like summers over. That's where we are.

Yes, I candidly have just like end of summer, whatever like that my brain like, what if I what if I just shut IT down for a couple weeks before you rap up in the gagny y ism? But there are still a lot of news time, and all of that is like policy news, like the the legal systems of the world. Just keep P D F for me to read on a books pala.

I mean, literally, it's just everyone trying to do the work that they have to do so that they can have a long weekend of every day. Vx, that this is the same thing that happens like right before thanksgiving is just a bunch of people who are like, I need a minute. Let me, let me file on my paperwork, let me get all the work done.

Let me push, publish on the thing and then get out like nothing is going to happen on friday. nothing. Everybody's indication there.

Like I did IT already forty day weekend and you listening to this on a friday.

So get ready. Stop IT.

I do think like the the theory falls a little short when we consider france because they don't do labor day.

The day in france is labor day. That's like we're counting on the buses today. Strike people talk.

Can I just talk that the books found for one more second? So governments around the world generate PDF, and that is our job to read them abroad. And broad strokes, that's how I think of the virtual C.

T. Discovers a David made everybody buy a books. Palmer, where he came your house with threat of violence. You, I got an e an angry phone.

He just knocked on my door.

But I was, I was play. But IT happened. What happened? The other function of the verge decides, responding to government.

P. S. Is making people buy stupid gats, i'm very confident in this dynamic.

Like, this is how I should be. So I buy a books' a. And like, this is how many A U P, D, S, so so much.

My job was reading P, S, but then you need another piece of software because it's not good at anything by itself. No, because it's just a low and android phone with league this way. So then you got to get get read wise reader and IT feels like those two companies should just put IT together.

Those are the two things. It's not actually the books pala that people want. It's read wise reader r on the nee screen .

one hundred percent IT could not agree more and and like that every time, alexi, both through every time we talk to a company that makes a readers, we say, when are you going to make a decent APP for reading things? And every time we talk to a company that makes a reading up, it's like to meet hardware, some point. Somebody's gonna do IT and it's going to be great because you're exactly correct.

Didn't amazon to .

do right this? What i'm going for is lock .

in clean software that the word good is so, so, so important in that read really good software. There's good software out there only for free APP good software, make a, make a thing for .

IT work together with all the companies making the thing. But if you buy the books, but you would not know that read wise reader exists and is the thing that unlocks the hard way I feel I think I just closed that look loop. I know IT read to do the thing that you do, do IT is you upload the P, D, F and IT, basically O, C, R, S IT, into a format that looks good on in screen, which is great.

Only that takes time and I have no attention span and no patients. And I was like, screw, i'm treating this P, F. And ipad and that has happened like five times.

Yeah Kevin, win. Our future edit is constantly dealing with this because I always getting like galleys of books and stuff, uh and every time I get like a PDF of a book that's about to be released that I have to read whatever reason, I first try to upload IT to my kindle where IT doesn't work and looks bad. Then I try to put IT and read wise where IT doesn't work and looks bad. And then I end up reading IT like in drop box on my ipad. And I, how is this the best possible solution here?

Yeah IT every time it's like i've come this close from going from books format to buy and i've had many like pilots around the world by the people. Now just send a screen shots of pilots with ipad.

It's the very .

unexpected outcome of hosting a podcast. About time. 呃， but you look at all the pilots are great. Everyone looks up with ipad. Okay, let's say what actually techne. So to talk telegram, uh, there is a bunch of other legal stuff that happened this week, and then we got a true lightning grant where we going to try to get through all to this thing.

Yes, but we should start with telegram, which is, I would say, not only the news the week, but the ongoing news of of time to come, because the idea is the social or messaging platform owners face criminal liability for what happens on their platforms. IT might feel new and shocking because the french government arrested this guy, but it's also been building for a very, very long time. 对 some amount of responsibility for what happens in platform will be imposed and our government has wanted to do this right in congress is like jack dorsey went to allow you for a while。

Um this one I think is particularly shocking because of just the facts of what telegram is, the fact that pudor of the CEO landed in france on a private jet in the french through he immediately arrested him. Why blame your plane where the people are gonna you? Uh his sort of unrepented attitude about to own platform. David.

catch us up on the basics. sure. So basically last sunday, provost of the CEO of telegram was arrested like he said after landing the P, J in france.

Uh, don't land P, J, not connecting to all. You just don't end. The P, J is a good. We can make shirts that say, just don't end the P, J.

that could work, staying sky possible.

And all we knew at the time was that he was arrested. I believe the french authors said, like in conjunction with an investigation into crimes, he was very big. Uh but he he was arrested and over the next several is IT IT came out.

The essentially what was happening is that he was being arrested, uh, based on criminal activity that was happening on telegram. Uh, he he was not, as far as I understand, being accused of doing the crimes, but of of what the french government and are calling complicity in the the criminal activity that was happening on telegram. He has since been charged with a bunch of things, most of which are complicity for things like money launder ing and child abuse, child sexual buse material, uh, all sorts of other internet crimes.

And overall, aching theme seems to be A A lot of this bad stuff was happening in relative plane site on telegram. N, B. Telegram not only knew I was hosting this stuff and allowed IT, but actively resisted working with governments to help.

Yes, I think, again, this is the very beginning of what I think is going to be a very long story. But I think in terms of like the basics of what we know, I think that's kind of where we are at this moment. Yeah, my missing anything.

Now there are the basics. Obviously none of us are experts in french law. If you were an next french law you know hit us up, we allow taught to you um but the the piece of that puzo are really important here that I think we can understand and talk about credibly um our one how telegram works because a lot of people want to compute how other platform works on to telegram and they're actually really different.

So it's a very common misconception that telegram is encysted and is just not um it's not even it's like secret chats one to one chat. You can push up button and make them encysted but that is not the default to gram groups are not encysted like there's nothing inherently secure about to gram like I will tell you, I know a lot of activists who know who know that there is cm on I message that there is is bad stuff on signal and the defenses, these are enter and encysted. No one can see the data except the participants.

So apple knows it's there. Every people have told them they have actually built some tools to try to detect and got to know that essentially breaking encysted, we've taught about that state link, but fundamentally, they can't see IT. So IT has this out like these companies have these outs, like people are using doing bad things on our platforms where we can see IT.

So we don't know. And do you should try other ways to catch them, right? And this is a lot of the argument about and and encysted is the cops want to see the bad stuff and they want the companies to build them back doors to give the bad stuff to them.

And so, uh, I think there's a temptation to assume telegram is Operating the same way and IT is not right. And I think that is actually the first most important thing is all the officers is happening out in the wide open and telegram in these huge channels. In these on encysted chats, telegram can see almost everything that happens unless you press secret chat, which no one is pressing and show me happens between people anyway. And so is a very unusual service in the sense that IT IT knows IT has the technical ability to know what is happening on service, and lots of people can see what's happening on service.

Have you all used telegram or whole .

lot in bitters today?

Today felt like the wrong data start.

yeah. no.

I like I remember using IT. I I used IT when I went type. At one point, just IT was easy to communicate with my friends.

And when I got back cove, IT hit was living in new york. And so all the protests are suffer, ending. So there was a ton of organizing happening on telegram. Most miserable experience have ever had using a chat program just awful because IT is just like it's a chat room. It's just okay, you know, in a chat room and you're gona go to bed and wake up to two hundred new messages in a chat room and you actually .

you make a good point. Let me just quickly, like explain the rough structure of telegram. Because, like you, yours, amy, I IT IT is actually instructive for happening here.

He tells you a lot .

about the story. yeah. So there are basically three levels of telegram, which exists, I would say, somewhere in the like if imagine the overlapping van diagram of like what's up and discord and like reach at like telegram is somewhere in the middle of those three things.

Uh, so all the way the top you have public channels, right, which is basically like the equivalent of an instagram feed, right? You post something lots of people can see IT. It's it's essentially just a public like one way fee.

The middle thing, which I think is probably telegrams like most I don't know, if not most, used in sort of most unique thing is the group chats. And the group chats can have, I think, the numbers up to two hundred thousand people in them, which is a crazy number. But IT is a huge part of the reason that telegram has been used for things like political organizing and for huge like government communications.

It's because you can have that many people, literally, in a space together, IT becomes object chaos, but IT can be really useful. And then at the bottom of that is wonder one jet. So you can go all the way from you and I are texting each other to, like one, two millions inside of telegram. Uh and there's also like there's there's APP stuff going on and there there are all kinds of like plugin, the things you can do inside the telegram. IT has some of that like reach out Operating system dynamic to IT, but most of what happens.

but it's not a good .

looking APP in the same way that we had is not a good looking APP, but like IT does a lot. So it's it's very useful for those reasons.

And so the reason most people use IT and for our purposes, I think the reason it's particularly interesting right now because of what's going on of polder of is really probably the top two things, right? The thing where one person can communicate a lot of people very quickly and the sort of giant teaming group chats of up to two hundred thousand people. So like there's nothing else that works quite that same way on the end.

to be clear, if you have a one to two hundred thousand person group chat, not IT doesn't matter if that's encysted IT definitely the things leaking, right? Yeah you're not trying to keep that secret like that stuff the point of talking in two one thousand people. So there's all these arguments for why IT wouldn't not be encrypted.

I I think the first thing to just be very clear on is it's not like the other platforms are used for political organising. It's not like the other platforms that are encrypted or claying to be encysted. IT is inherently of this broadcast medium.

And in the other piece, which is tremendously relevant to all of this, is that IT has no the has no context moderation, which is not like a technical decision. That is a policy decision. They've just decided this is gonna fine.

So free for all. We don't care. We support free speech in the policy decisions of flow from that.

Get all the way to like to retreat governments and would also just simply get things like ISIS. Let us on telegram. This is just going to be the after ice. This users and people have known this for a long time. We are going to accept enormous amount of a photography, including some the worst pornography, including some child sexy material, perhaps lots of child sexual general.

And everyone can just see IT and researchers can just file report after report about this, the prevalence of this material on telegram and the company is going to do nothing about IT. And then that brings you to the actual policy decisions, which is the way we've structured the data on telegram means that if a government wants to issue a warn in or sapa the accept to issue like twenty right in countries across the world in order to get the data improve, the case against about people and tel grounds are proud of this. And um all platforms have kind of like the transparency reports, you know uh in other times like they've had what's called canneries were they they say they have a sentence of our site like we've never done this and then they silly change IT to get sense of people know what happened but even I have been disclose anything.

Wow, telegrams. One is like we've just never give IT up any data. Everyone can see all the bad things on our part forms they want to catch about people and we have made IT so you cannot you can't do IT it's so hard to do IT no government has ever managed to this and I think that is the liability again, I don't enough french law um but I I know how our government thinks about how researchers think about academics about IT.

And once you get to you know it's happening and you won't even help the cops stop IT, you end up with maybe you're responsible for yourself and that is that a lot of steps you got to get through a lot of steps. I don't think there's any networks in the united states. There are anywhere close to that, even of the usual morons are screaming about free speech on telegram.

That's just not that works here like no one is that stupid um but here IT feels like there was an such an active effort to frustrate authorities from prosecuting just straightfor dly criminal behavior that do lend this media and france got arrested yeah I think we have to find out the case we are again, not next. In first there there's a whole bunch of stuff but the you know the crimes are happening and you won't even help us stop IT. That's where you you get that collapse of liability. So we're just going to arrest to .

see of the social noord what and IT goes back to the questions of encysted too, because I think you look at something like a message, right where apple right wrong believe I don't believe IT is privacy is more important than everything else we can see IT.

Neither can you happen, believe in. But there is for you.

I disagree. That is a that the whole stance, uh, what telegram has said is, is the opposite, right? Like all the things are saying about we can see IT and we're doing nothing about IT date like touted. This is part of the point over the years and one of things that provo of he said many times is like you can't build uh uh private, secure, safe place for people to talk except for terrorists and like again, bunch a really interesting arguments behind that sentence, but it's not encysted IT.

And this is the thing that IT comes back to, right, is IT would be a different argument if telegram were an encrypted APP on which all of this stuff was kind of loosely known to be happening but you couldn't see IT but like you can see IT, it's just it's just there there all these researchers in the last few days who are are coming out and saying um like the the news title Y A I apps is one that you see a lot on on telegram and willer is at the washington a great story about the researchers who was like I just found a bunch of them just right there. There are just sitting there. It's not like a secret this up is known and so IT seems like that disconnect between it's just sitting right there, the the evidence that is in front of us like all I have to do is look with my eyes and it's right there and yet you are willingly obvious gating my ability to do anything about IT that is I feel like the bridge that i've never seen another company across this.

yes. Well, there is like the one examples is like kim, right, where he was kind of ingredient sly, ignoring the fact that his his meg upload sight was full of pirated stuff. And then one day they kept the new zealand authorities came and said, yeah, you can't do that and anymore and always being extradited, like on his extradition to our every couple of a year can sent to a new country to be extradited. So I think there's like examples of this before. And um pavel, I like, why did this guy come to friends?

Because I again, this is the biggest question I have what he said before .

i'm going to the places where they want to arrest me for this stuff and they hate what i'm doing for its like did he miss the olympics? Maybe thought they were just distracted work.

They're coming off the olympics. He's like going to stop and get a bag, get in the cigarette. And you see ocs, two things about came dom. One we had the the best outline invert history came dock mega upload and charges, which people thought was a body shaming joke and writing, know that is the name of the company i'm sorry, I was very funny.

That whole sequence are funny um to copy a lot the only one will regius except the speech regulation IT is wild to me you're like you fired at a bunch of dozy movies. Jail the entire international community is going to put you in jail all together at the same time. And I can that sound of like deal on musk is not like justice for kim dcom, right? And then it's like we're talking about I is in in C M.

Censorship having a free. What are you talking about? So there's just a huge disconnect and how we perceive speech regulations even in this case where similar facing criminal prosecution around the world for you know for violates our speech arms.

So well just happens with disney like hollywood, and that seems to be fine. So that's just weird, like just on its face, alex. I agree there's a weirdly there. But the other piece of the puzzle that even in in states where we have strong prohibitions against speed regulations in the first minute and things like section to thirty, which isolate platform owners for the speech that happens on platforms, we make a big exception for criminal behavior on our platforms, like part of section to thirty is no effect on criminal prosecution like it's the heading. It's like you don't get insulated from crimes, right?

If the people are doing crimes in your platforms and we can connect IT to you, we're going to do are the crimes that you first ancestor the the the exception to to thirty that made a basically made talking about sex work illegal on these platforms that I was an anti trafficking law but they landed with basically sex workers can do business some platforms anymore um that is a criminal. That's a criminal statute. We're like you.

This is illegal now. You'll be responsible for this. You'll be liable for this when the platforms i'll take IT down and most people are sort of fined of that.

There's a large controversy bring at that, that we don't have time talk about, but that was the tradeoff that was made in that policy here. I think there was just a deep confusion about a french law. No, no french law.

And b like how much you have to know? When do you have to know? IT is mark OK.

We're gonna go to jail because all of this stuff exists on meta platforms. But they actively try to shut him down. They work with blunt force ate.

So jail, if you do slightly less than metta, do you go to jail? If you're elon musk, do you go to jail? right? Like I don't think we understand the gradation in an on top of that, every country on the planet right now is grappling with how to regulate social media and the bad things that happened on social media, and they're all going to come to wild, be different answers. And I think all these potful owners are going like, okay, this is the tip of the sphere. Like this is the beginning of the end, even though it's so out of bounce, even though it's so far, if you like, no one else doing in telegram is in.

And do you guys considered telegram social media? I always considered IT like a chat platform.

What is a photo?

Yes.

I yeah basically one just do that at you. What is the social media perform?

like? It's it's instagram enough in the way that people use IT in some ways that I think I think IT counts OK.

I know the way like anything where you can post yeah still like a in that post might go to people you don't know is a social new platform yeah and that's a very look so you you can find exception state in all over the place. But that's kind of my broad definition.

Can you post? I like that.

What can you post? Can the person on the other? Like, do you have to know the person on the other of IT?

So by this definition, al, discord is a social meter platform, right? Twitch is a social meter platform twitches obviously into my mind, obviously. So youtube is a social meeting platform by this efficient. So I I think there's that's a broad one. But this basic idea, like if you run a platform or someone can talk a lot of strangers, what responsibility do is the platters or have.

And pretty much the only responsibility ly we've decided any of these companies truly have is making sure there's not copyright and like is making sure the hollywood in the music industry are protected. That is pretty much at right. And then there's there's a listening of really bad things that they were decided that they will keep off on their own. Um and that is IT. That's the answer that like across the world, like that's the baseline answer is copyright infringement in the tiktok, which is like .

what if we did any .

yeah but like I would just point out that that always is where these arguments break down. If you're okay with sending kim got come to jail for copyright, you might have to reconsider how about the other stuff or you want to read our infringement? I just think this stuff is so openly horrible. The actively forwarding the authorities, they should probably like you in some how water.

But I think the the question of who who is you in that sentence, right? I think is is doing a lot of work in this question because like what what we see most of the time is companies get in trouble, right? Like companies get fined or everybody like the government sends things to lawyers and and it's all this sort of entity to entity thing. And so I think the fact that IT was like A A, A dude who got arrested for IT is so unusual. I mean, it's like if if somebody did a bad tweet and jack dorsey got arrested like back in the day, instead of him going know how different .

lives or could have been a arrested for that tweet.

This is what I mean. And I think it's we live in A I I think if you if you like, there's that the jail just be full of jack orca. But I on this .

tradition to that we have to .

send him around the world, from jail to jail around the world.

I think if you if you cast this out and in a certain way that IT goes like, you know, we talk about chilling effects of laws all the time. And how are you going to feel right now if you're CEO of a company that is dealing with any of this? All, my god, not only is my company at risk, but literally, I personally could go to jail, which I guarantee you is not something most people are thinking about yeah.

my access to high quality wine and cheese is at risk today.

And we cannot .

go to friends who .

who are those C E, O, it's like Marks, like a erg. what? Elon mask there.

what? It's a lot of them, right?

What but amazon .

kinds like sooner .

go to jail for what .

happens on youtube is like a pretty weird jump. At the same time, all of those companies actively CoOperate with enforcement all the time, first in ways ways good in bed. I think on our lightning relies mark suker berg sending a letter to jim Jordan in congress this week saying, we cave to the by administration too much.

I think that letter is like political theatre, but like, that's what I mean by active CoOperation, the government on both sides, he saying, we CoOperated by administration and I was CoOperate. Which important thing we CoOperate to the by administration, like the the big companies in this country least, are actively engaged with various governments around the world in various ways. And I think that insulates them from mark rockwood getting rested in friends here you just have this other thing.

IT is so different, like architecturally and heavy APP works. Uh user experience wise, you know the the one to two hundred thousand of opportunities you have moderation wise and that they do literally nothing when the worst content anyone can possibly imagine. And then policy wise, they have structured IT to make IT impossible for the authorities to even arrest the people they can see with our .

eyes in all the little finger to them in the process.

And you just just stack all that up. You, that is a lot of decisions that land you in french jail.

Wonder how it's gonna fect, elon, because he'd really been trying to take the same past with eggs that there have been doing of just been like the free speech absolution ist said.

I say completely and I understand that what you want all the thing yeah.

he's always like that. It's all about free speech and he fundamental is very different and how he actually does that because he's always like you need to take that done done but like.

yeah I mean, his definition of free speech and you know look at the tweet is a if people want to speak regulations, they should pass laws and that our democracy is supposed to work and I will follow to what in you like here that's the weird dest definition of free speech that exists because you're asking for government .

speech regulation. And what they have followed historically has been droning an speech laws in other countries yeah right?

Like india has draconian features x comply them brazil has new jury an features and he doesn't like the government, like it's this weird baLance of like actually i'll do what if I want, but like if I don't want to get and do a fight with the government or I like the government that i'll do what they say, which is just not a position, right? That is just pure opportunities.

And and I think the noise around there of getting arrested in france is like useful for him and his ongoing quest to be perceived as a free speech matter. But at if you look at this post lately, you can tell he's like in an intellectual spiral because this position has no center. There's no there's actually no ideological commitment, anything.

So if you like, I would wish to defy the government, but I might get arrested. Also, some of this stuff is horrible. Also, i'm still like i'm suing advertisers for any trust.

There's nothing in there like there's there's literally no center. There's no intellect al center to that position and you can kindly see him be like, oh, crap. This is what free speech might actually need.

I don't want I don't want to over intellectualize elands you know kadee in using or whatever the ticket is, but it's like you can see it's starting like the pressure welcome help is based. I'm saying the internal contractions of owning a platform like x in all of the demands are placed on that. I think it's started to wear on a MIT.

yes. yeah. I mean, and I think we should probably move on from this. But the the thing that keeps coming up to me as I I read these stories and talk to people about this, there's been a ton of good reporting on this.

But good, good week for the journalists out there, uh, is how much that the sort of legal push against the technology is still going along the lines of we have to protect the children 呃， like so much of this is about the c sam stuff that's happening on telegram and the laws that have been passed recently. I think IT was, I think IT was britain that read the past, the law last year, uh, that explicit allows. The executives of that companies to be held personally responsible for C M stuff and trial T T stuff on their platform in general, if they told about IT and don't do anything about IT like that's that's not a law that exists. And and this idea of, uh, we have to protect children being like the most bipartisan thing you'll find anywhere on any line of political reasoning that how we're getting towards all of this. And it's it's just fascinating that, that continues to be the thing that is like the deeper this goes, the more about child safety.

That's that's always the argument for censorship. That's always like .

the first line of arguments for ship and mouse first and Mickey mouse in the child .

safety almost always like there's a great substance episode about that exact thing. And then all of the big fights in the the nineties over A T V ratings and stuff like that where you had like clinton yeah and then all these republicans getting together being like, well, anyone think of these babies.

You can get anything done if you can convince people it's about keeping children.

And if I I agree with you, tip go put the explicit lyrics label and all of the cities I was per goal very weird taper goal versus N W A. Just imagine how far we've come um super weird um but the the reason that you do that is if you can make the counter even seem morally indefensible you you win right right and put here. I just want to come back to IT is really there.

The cm is there. It's very bad. And so like sometimes you just have to say it's there here and it's bad and you have to do something about IT and that if you listen to the show or decoder, lets read us for years like the free speech debate online, he was raged and we have struggled with IT and we've been in less episodes about IT.

But like you need an ideology center, right? It's one saying and it's there like ice is is there why you don't have to overthink IT? You just have to make IT go away and hold the people responsible for economy.

And I think here it's like, well, that's an easy one. There are lots of Grace and lots of much harder lines. That one feels pretty to me.

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We're back with more crimes, fun crimes. And I trust crimes.

I was this, there's less bummer crimes are after more fun crimes. I would say that windsor .

crime seems the the rock A I being so out of control that you can just make like .

hilary clinton do G T A O.

like I have a lot of deep reservations about deep fakes and what is a photo and lies in the internet and then i'm like, it's also hilarious to have you on moscow and I osc a journey the invite, have his deeply ke character say, i'm starting in soup kitchen, which is a real video I watch today. It's like, brother, we put so brother want to tell you, uh, it's all very good at with a new on voice too. All of its great. Don't look at IT respect the truth.

Photography is sacrificed that I left.

I did love. Let's start with the the big one, David. You said this is the story of segment to it's help sue google for any rest, right, violations.

So okay, did you guys think that yelp IT already suit google? Because I finites suit google like a long time.

Yelp, at this point, is a front for seeing google right?

Basically it's I think everyone who works at yp is just lawyers now yes. But anyway, so very recently, earlier this summer, couple weeks ago, uh, google lost its antitrust third trial. Uh, we're still in the remedy y's faced then they're be appeals and then god in us but for now IT lost.

Uh and so yelp, clearly evolved by that fact, uh, filed a suit of its own that basically brings up something that cut thrown out of the last case against google, which I ve been really interesting. Essentially the argument is that google prioritizing its own stuff in google search results, and as d prioritized yp and trip advisor and other companies like IT, and has thus killed them. Uh, this is an argument we've been hearing forever.

This is an argument yet has been making loudly, forever, literally. I assumed yelp pity to google, apparently. And now what yelp seems we thinking, like germany, supply in the CEO, said in as many words, the winds on anti trust have shifted dramatically.

So this company clearly senses this is the moment to finally pick the fight. It's been wanting to pick for many years, which I think is very odd given that, that particular fight has been thrown out of court in the same search trial that google just lost. So i'm confused but also I think it's fascinating.

And uh yet again, like google is just up against IT man, like the the epic stuff is happening. The search stuff is happening. This is happy like it's just IT just keeps happening for google.

There is an ad tech trial yeah I say that people notice google has yet another antitrust trial coming up over its ad text tag, which is the .

money yeah I mean, wasn't this like google strategy? They would spend twenty years fucked in around and then now they're there find out phase and that's why they have all the lawyers that they pay a lot of money too.

Yeah I mean, there's something I I, I agree with, jeremy. Still, the winds of antitrust have definitely changed. Uh, i'll actually can point to a very well, very odd example of this, a lutha low who is your p's old policy person recently left yet he's doing all the stuff I think is a White comment or now and they did uh like a mean Green and dc like a little thing and a jd events.

Before his vice presidential candidate showed up at the meeting grip with all of starts talking about how he used to be in attack, he thought big tech was censoring everyone in the world, mob was out of control and middle all that nonsense. He was like, I think lena, on to a good job. Yes, weird, weird, right? Like, that's how much of the winds of an interest his change.

He is like the only person that by adminstration is doing a good job is going to come because we should break up really his point was like because this work should is not to control. And like, maybe that doesn't all put together like that puzzle. You put all the pieces together like that doesn't look like anything, but he still said IT right like that.

That's where the mindset is, is these companies have too much control, and we should take that control away and and do something else. What do something else is? I think all of us are very curious to find out it's clearly going to be something else.

But you look at google, which is just taking IT on the chin lately, right? In the search case in the epic ase, they lost this in. The judge in that case has been very loud, like you did IT. I'm gonna a do something about IT. yeah. And then the ad test case, which you know we don't know it's going to happen every trials kind of a coin flip, but we're going to get a documents to a google of money in that case, like it's going to some stuff is going to come out because it's going to the business side of google talking about the money yeah and I I think google images very cuddly as though the money just appears from nowhere.

That's not true and that's also the trial. Let's not forget the google, uh, just without any questions, just wrote a check for the maxim void having a jury trial like in you know innocent til proven guilty. But that's a tough look once I can.

This is a real thing. We have a picture of the check on the website. I believe they just wrote a check to the department of justice for the maximum like a cashiers check. I believe it's strong and wells fargo and there here's all of the money we could possibly we would like to settle the case like out of the blue yeah.

it's incredible. Just do not have a jury trial and I mean.

it's a well, fargo so talk about what twelve years before .

IT gets at the box involves this.

Ah sorry, sorry.

Have you heard of a lightning? Okay, so back the help. Uh, I think the winds have changed is an opportunity for maybe not to know win like epic, right? You help doesn't have a fortnight in the background to fund all the stuff.

But I think maybe the cloud a settlement at a google yeah to somehow puts some pressure on google to open up and make this go away to appears the euros in some way. Whatever you think of google's relationship, the internet IT is changing. And I think as we've said a million times, that means the .

interact can change. So you think you all wants to be to google. What like the delta emulator folks have been to apple, which is just just sort of the one in there, just like trying IT open slightly and they're in a position of weakness and going to have to start to make policy changes that are good for you, but also good for everybody. And so you is like, don't want to break up google, we just think this is a chance to like extract some of what we want from the company because they are going to decide it's easier to do that.

It's kind of necessary for help at this point because they they have been struggling for a while, right? Like they they have resorted to basically bullying restaurants and stuff and making sure that they're on their platform.

Everything here's what we can do. We can shake down millions of local restaurants or we can get a check from google, which is.

yeah, I kind of feels like what IT is for you. So many .

companies you can describe with that sentence. Good god.

Also, there are somebody is on threats, say, who opposed to that? I've i've been more can tanker is lately. I can I just describe my joke her moment?

Probably because I love that these companies are having these facts. I love of the interns can be potentially more open. I love that at least were in the season change.

All that's great. I do not, for one second, believe any. This is truly idealistic, right? I think this is a version of capitalism at play where a lot of very self interested parties are looking at for their own self interest in are clouding in weird ways. great.

The reason I say IT that way is because a long time ago is to cover the neutrality, like every other deck. And a big player in net neutrality was netflix. If you will recall, the netflix in redit.

We're like out in front, black out the internet fight for neutrality. We don't let comcast throttle disclosure. Comcast as an invest company. Boy did they not like an antiseptic coverage just put in all out there and then one year, uh, read things on stage code conference so but Peter koki and Peter said, you've been really quiet about lately retains look to them and said, yeah, we're so big IT doesn't matter t anymore and I turned into the joker .

that's honest wow.

And like fine right like fine insight, like the idea that yelp is a idealistic credos fighter, even delta, even that's a smaller company. I do think they're pressing the regulatory of inmates open up these platforms. Oh yeah, but I don't think that like they're that they're going to get theirs right now. All that's all all and I think all of this change is like who's gonna there at the end of this. And so like we're going to shake down on restaurants or shake down google is kind of the best in my mind, like the best way to understand, like ever just trying paid whether the legal system can shift the money around in a more equal way at the end of all this totally remains to be seen. I I truly do not know you know .

funy what you're arguing for as capitalism working .

as intended fighting for money .

is IT should be what we ve had IT on is nobody can fight for money because google took IT all yeah true and .

has never been tried. David, I think .

that's what i'm trying to tell you. What if IT was just a street plate for money? Let's find out .

post modern capitalism, just google opening .

its wallet yeah you like sorry, you come with that's the horseshoe theory of international capitalism is google is the plan economy director standing money um i'm not saying that's not what everybody wants OK, that's google. We will see what happens in yet and google but you can see like as we keep saying, what I happens to google is the internet, but you just see the internet like fracturing around around that already.

Uh, this other one that I think is really interesting, it's a weird ruling. Uh tiktok has to face a lawsuit for recommending the blackout chAllenge and this is a very, very sad story. There is a ten year old who died doing the blackout chAllen.

Um the parents tiktok you know one of those cases works like tiktok to make the blackout chAllenge videos if they're not telling you to do IT, right? The people are seeing the content on the platform. They are taking action.

A horrible, extremely depressing thing happened in our and to try to hold take talk level. And throughout most of this, we are not holding platforms label for all the recommendation them to accept. We just had a supreme court ruling which said maybe we should like more or less, maybe we should.

So one of the weirdest things about this case is that it's it's like a it's like a puzzle this scream court put itself in. So the there were contemplating laws passed in texas and they went up to the supreme court. The supreme core basically said, now these are, these are weird.

You're just obviously conservative states. Being that at facebook, but you didn't think about what would happen to other platforms or smaller platforms. You have to go think about this before.

But like go back and think figured out the one thing this stream work was very clear about was that IT is protected first party speech when they curate other people's content, right? So section two thirty says you, facebook are not responsible for a people post on platform for mostly that's their speech, not your speech. The way you moderate that speech and presented to other people is your speech. So that's protected by the first moment. You cannot the government cannot set content moderation rules because the content moderation itself is speech OK.

That feels right generally.

that feels right that how you get a marketing from platform, that's how you end up with truth, social and index in in whatever kindergarten supermarket rules you wanted participate in, right? Like that's how you get the whole range of expression in the marking, sort of decide how much content moderation they want.

The court, the third circuit about antitch case says, well, give quote, given the supreme courts observation that platforms engaging protective first party speech on the first moment when the curate computations of other people's content via their expressive algorithms, IT follows the doing so amounts to first party speech under section to thirty. So the algorithm is your speech that means you reliable for your speech. So if you recommend a bunch of back out chAllen videos, that's your speech. That's a choice you've made. Now you're libel for your speech .

and it's calling actuation, which is really fascinating.

So this is just like a long, a long chain of reason that ends with, okay, some of this belongs to use. The government can tell you what to do, but IT belongs to you, not other people can get matter you for IT in that. I don't know how that is going to shake out.

I don't know if tiktok is right plaintive for that. They're tiktok after all. We just talked about save the children as a theme. Uh, the the tiktok versus the units government versus china, that's all in the mix there. Whether not to talk and like mount chAllenge to this kind of a huge president to say these algorithms are not only your speech and can be protected from laws um and can be protected from government and reference but also now other people can sue you for you're already. Ym.

do yeah. I mean that like breaks the international net, right? Like because that doesn't break tiktok, which arguably should be broken because I hate algorithm right now. But IT IT breaks IT breaks facebook. IT breaks google, because google is using an algorithm to to recommend search results.

Here you are showing me bad stuff is now legally actionable, is, well, like, off we go, you know? And like that define, but I don't think we're ready for that world either. So the other side of the coin, the non google side coin, also up for grabs because what's happening in legal system, which just again, say this, here i'm trying to have the end of summer.

Here i'm trying to drink a panic a lot, and the pds just keep coming. Now stop, kill me. Let's do one more petitions tion than we get to get out of here.

The panicked lot is weight. Uh, this one is is a tough one because it's not actually a law yet and I actually don't know of gravitation is a science bill. But the california state assembly passed an A I safety bill. What's gone on inherent tive.

So it's called the safe and secure innovation for frontier artificial intelligence models act, which just roles off the town. Anything S S I F A, I M A, no. All good laws are background um everyone needs to remember this if you're law is not a background um it's not a good law. It's just it's .

so important that the ditties ask changyou .

to make a name yeah right can you like the the insane people have done.

I think the people right this bill, we're fans of a ito. They we're going to have ChatGPT do IT this law.

They should have found a way to make IT spell out artificial with all the letters and would have been amazing. But the last, uh IT is mostly just called S B ten forty seven. Uh it's an A I safety bill that uh I would take concerns itself as we've been talking about in part with who is responsible for bad things that happen downstream of AI models and IT changes the way that companies need to test and train these things that changes the way that they need to talk to the government. Like it's kind of sweeping, like here's how we want to oversee and think about AI models.

Um there's been a lot of backing and forth, open the eye kind of came out against IT anthropic was like we love IT, let's change some stuff uh there have been uh a bunch of politicians who are against IT. A bunch of positions were for IT. Ah I agree that seems very debatable whether garnesk will sign this thing as IT currently stands, but IT does still feel like a moment that IT passed out of the assembly the way that IT has .

if he signs IT. Does that just mean like google OpenAI a lot of these companies.

real california still a .

market yeah well, that but also one of the things a lot of the companies have said essentially, is why are you making a law to make us do what we've already promised to do, which is essentially make sure R A I is not going to destroy the world? And I would argue that a very funny line of reason to be like we said, we're going to be cool. Why are you going to make me be cool? Is is an od stance. Um but my sense is and again, all of this could change, especially as the the law continues to change and depending on how it's implemented is that a lot of these companies are going to not like IT, but we will figure out a way to play along. I don't think this is the sort of thing that is like gna run anybody out of california?

Yes yeah anthropic central letter basically supporting IT and tear point. They're like, yeah but then you read the letter, we should definite do something. Here's just a line from tropic letter. We believe S P ten forty seven, particularly after recent minutes, likely presents a feasible compliance burden for companies like hours in light of the importance of averting catastrophic misuse.

Yeah, cool. yeah.

There is a real chance we won to destroy the world. So let's do a feasible compliance burden. S yeah, I don't know how this plays. The biden had the A I order that just came out a bunch of company is that they are going join the AI model board that make sure they're safety testing and releases results.

This one feels like, in particular, gather son has to make a decision, and then that will decide whether a bunch of similar state laws get passed all in the country because once a californias IT, it's it's like fine, like you'll do IT tomorrow right now you're not making him do anything. You're just like off the races. And then now your point, the questions like whether texas does or doesn't do IT and IT doesn't matter because all the researchers are in cul for anyway, right? Like and you have to sell the call from a market, and then there you go.

So I am very confused about this one in a sense that what you really need is a federal law. And that doesn't seem like glee and saucer election season and who knows what's going to happen. But IT also seems like this kind of wants to sign IT, but he esn said anything. But usually when you're the governor of the big state with the first in the nation, A I safe people you like pound of the pavement and here he literally has .

not said anything any like a fix. Who gives him money for his presidential campaign in four years?

Yeah I mean, yeah I mean.

I also think like we're in a moment right now where a all of the money on planet earth is being thrown at A I and there are a lot of very powerful, very rich people who will be happy to yell about you being anti progress if you sign a bill that does anything perceived to be slowing down.

And uh, I think IT was OpenAI that was like we need a federally driven set of AI policies rather than just a bunch of different state laws about how this and that's what will really Foster innovation. And this is like the same thing everybody says about everything, which is like we would so so love to have regulation as long as it's like the perfect regulation and doesn't anyone down or costs any money. But I would be like, so good, like mark zuker d did this.

The cypher industry has been doing this forever. Everybody wants there to be rules until there are rules. And then everybodys like, well, what if there is just like a simper set rules? But I could just like that be.

by the way, in case you're running what I see, ten forty seven says, you have to make IT possible to quickly infused ly, shut the model down. You have to bright, you just need to unplug the terminator. That seems fine.

You have to ensure the model is protected against unsafe post training modifications, which is hard um in the need to have a testing procedure to see whether model serving tips are especially at risk of causing critical harm. So this is a lot like some of that is pretty fuzzy. Some of IT is like you just have to be .

able to implicit I like those last to our super fuzzy yes yeah .

like how do you prove this isn't going to destroy the world is actually a really hard question.

What is deal, I would argue, did if you're watching a product and you have to ask that question, we should ask that a question a lot, right? Like four doesn't come out with the twenty and twenty five anko sport and immediately be like, will this destroy the world?

Did you watch up?

And hyper few .

products in the .

world were like, why is going to desert the world?

If you are really crushing as a project manager, you're not going to answer those questions. You're going to be .

happy you're hitting deadlines. You user stories to collect you know .

the time or i'm just like you know the tiktok ers doing like bottled .

water is not made.

Alright, the bright way there's uh just a reminder for me mental note. There's a two or three tiktok gdc companion ns and we should get profile. I won't tell you who they are, but if you have thoughts, emails, the version there's one in particular, my, what did they come from?

Other, the next accor, just a little history drop, right? We got to take a break where and come back around. Part two, the fun one, the fund fun sponsored over your back.

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Were back in the break, I disclosed to David what company was thinking of and we immediately said he bought something. And David, is that just the media .

IT is incredible.

If you can guess, we send us a email. You guess um maybe something going to happen .

to you'll ship you whatever leam boat from.

No, all right. okay. We're doing at this way, were doing true lightning round unsponsored. No one can tell us what to do because I haven't paid us any money. What i'm suggesting here is you could pay us money. I don't know how that works, and I prised to want, do you say, but, you know, live a life of possibility.

I want vocs listening or slash start a executive who I will not name, who asked me very seriously recently, if we actually want people to sponsor the living round, or if we enjoying this bit so much that we actually don't want people. And I was like, no, to be very clear, I like money more than I like bits. We will take, please sponsor the lighting ground.

Can I do? And aside about the influence or cut this, I ve been thinking a lot about journalists were here's the problem that we have um when you give other people money, they do what you say. People come to our sales you and like what they do, what we say and we're kind of like, no just like flatly no.

The real problem journalism is whole right now, uh, fighting in a pll fight. But, uh, there is always a chance. I do think our easy .

asm for a sponsor of the lightning round might make IT the greatest ally in the history of the version. We will talk about whoever that sponsor is forever, unless they suck. In which case we will see, you ever know.

lives the game of chance. Roll the dice. People, sponsor, lying ground. All right, a true lighting ground. I'm onna rea heads line.

We are going to get to to move on, right? This is the idea. yeah.

Okay, here we go. Google german. I will let you create a generated people again.

Remember the diverse nates. Those were the days we're back. Google says they fixed IT. I would .

usually I do, but you all talk a link about what is a photo. Last week, we imagine the pixel .

yeah I had a bit of a freak out that I still am getting a lot of notes from people about and I feel very good about this time goes on .

yeah I feel I feel by the way, yes, we're going to defend the sensitive of um I feel nothing but um my question is that feels like google attitude about this is slightly shifted, right?

Like they diverse nose's thing and they killed IT because now they're like actually killed IT because a bunch of people were like we should be able to make diverse ona's weird and they took IT down like we don't want to say, I don't know how german izit work now imagine they're just like a little ride, right? Like more or less the attitude towards that. You well, well, I just if feels like something I shifted there and not sure .

what was IT six years ago. The german I think first happened was like earlier this wild how much this is shifted in six months because I told agit there's more safety rules .

like imagine is not supposed to add a bunch of drives step like they don't think that's what they want.

But you can add people at all.

You can add people. We won't touch people. We don't know how this sounds in work. So there are some there's a shift. It's not the next thing we're going to talk about, which is just a free for all. But there are some little shift inside the google says, okay, the market is going to accept a little bit more crazy and like Carrier seeing free for all X A S new grow image generated floods x with controversial AI fix that is a very soft line that's .

okay here little like a little too .

nice no little little .

quick how the internet works thing um that's actually the seo optimize headline that goes google. Can I read IT the headline that's on our website? This x is new. A image generator will make anything from Taylor fifteen lera to commute. Haris of the gun.

Yeah, we should. I don't know. That's what google wants. Common areas of the gun is all anybody search nowadays. And little than the other thing, it's bananas.

Like again, i've watched hilarious videos of like Donald trump in alert clinton in an arms stand off on and in. The underlying technology is called flux, which is an open source I system. So even if x added the controlled even now sort of like open everyone's eyes to flux, which is open searching to do that.

I really want with that bioactive very good.

It's very good. You can just go watched the thing. Just a very funny at rock. But elon must, elon must.

I mean, he wants to be a famous person, right? He released his own, completely out of control, deep packed tool on his own platform. The number of defective of him are out of control.

What was the one you were saying? You were saying before it's elonna.

It's a long video o um where elon mock narrates his eyewash journey. There's there's a nightmare dream sequences, the all of IT and at the end of IT, um he commits to do IT like giving away free food, everyone like sub kitchen and also says he's going to build a public transport system. And this is perfect.

but this is .

a perfect elon.

a stroll. Yeah, that's amazing.

Robot in square defect should be illegal, like speaking of laws are coming like a lot of people agree that defects relive, especially non consensual pornography defects. Uh, this is going to a weird fight. It's going to a weird fight.

A bunch of Scott hanson does not want her voice being used. Open eye, right? Filed that complaint.

I don't I do not know how these are going to go because this feels like we just like the cat out of bag talk about feasible compliance with the like we have a pictures of a mass smoking a cigarette on the verge. Talk is so good. Yes, next one from home company. Brilliant has found a buyer. David, did you ever have a brilliant?

I did briefly. I knew that I had one of the earliest, earliest one founders, like before they even launched the product, and they gave me A A prototype of one. I put IT in my wall, and then I had, I had a balcony at my apartment, and I turned on the balcony light permanently.

You want to turn up. And that was, that was my experience with the first brilliant, brilliant stuff actually got very good. Uh, there they made a most of their business, like going into apartment buildings, but just never really made IT. Yeah.

this is what if you had an ipod touching and all the control later.

mind. Yeah, exactly.

In je two E, R, brilliant from home reviewer reported they were going on a business which they kind of denied, and then they went out a business, but rescued, rescued by those White nights of american capitalism.

private equity, our people. We love him.

He is now .

called brilliant next brutal. And IT seems like what we know so far as the people who had brilliant stuff, their stuff is going to continue to work. What happens after that? I don't know.

The the new leadership did say they going to stop selling direct consumers of anywhere other than their website, which I think is a pretty strong signal that they are going further and further into the like selling in the new construction business, which makes a certain of medicine. A lot of these companies like amazon, has focused a lot on that with alex stuff. There's been this big race to be this sort of default choice for professional builders.

I know that when I was still a rental market, when I look for apartment, was a six year old unsupported ipod touch built right into the wall. So I was like these non ipod touch apartments that yeah .

but I think it's this company has always been, I would say, more sort of be to be than like a thing a regular person would consider buying like you go to home deepo and you're gonna a luchon. Not this right? Like I think that's pretty clear, uh, but it'll be interestingly to see if they can get IT right, ted, or if this just becomes kind of a slow death for a smart home company.

Yeah, I feel like if you have one of these in the wall, you you run at the clock, in my clock service to I yeah, yeah, alright. Span where to watch feature fines were to stream sporting events. So basically TV guide. But for streaming.

that has ever happened in intense, pretty funny. I spent like a lot of yesterday trying to find the catch in this and I think there's like a big galaxy brain strategy but also this is just a good nice for uh, E S P N released a thing that just gives you a list of all the games that are being played, which is like a thing that every sport tap has, right? Except apple sports, which doesn't.

But you can go and you can see where all the games are, what the score is, whatever. And now he just has A T V guy thing where you can it'll say it's playing on M, B, T, V, or it's playing on T N T, or this M, L, S game is on apple T V. Plus, like IT just tells you, are a stream sports, which seems like a thing that should not be complicated or need to exist.

Sure of a pirate ship in a redit .

logo anywhere in the there's just one that as parentheses it's a russian website .

against like have you .

will be extradited um but I like E S P N. Did this whole big media day on wednesday this week and essentially made clear that IT is making this paid from being a cable channel to like a sports like style brand. That was a serious al explained that I think that was really right。

Uh, there are about to launch a streaming service that shows you all the E S P N stuff like E S P N. The cable channels can be extreme service. There are part of the sports E S P N whole thing as they are, just like we want you to come to E S P N when you want to watch sports, even if you go somewhere else because they have the rights.

If you open the S P N, at first we win, right? Because that tell you bet, that tell you get in fani all this p and so E S P N is like deep in the weeds of, like, how do we become a destination for all things sports all the time. Uh, and this is both a very good idea in that vein, and also just like a useful page that I am going to load every single day for the rest of my life.

I have a question, was this originally posed to be a venue launch party or something? Because wasn't venu like .

most .

to launch around around now .

before foobar .

killed IT slowing down? Another anti trust last suit in the background of the entire world economy maybe, but that was posed to have everything in IT. Then use the of the opposite strategy.

E, S.

P is trying to send you to every other service. And then was like, we going to buy everything and food.

but was dead. And who was like on you can be a part of this. Then you know, you'd go and you'd looking me like, oh, what should I watch? Oh, it's all on view. I sure should subscribe the venue.

The guy with the answer is one channel.

this channel every time I see that.

But you know .

it's so telling about the sports industry is IT wouldn't have been that way. The thing that is ostensibly the streaming service for all the sports is not actually the streaming service for all the sports. This is why it's so terrible.

IT was like sixty percent.

I think yeah which is fine. And I think that if he eventually launches will be a useful thing that i'm sure I will give too much money to. But like the fact that you go on here and I will tell you the game is on prime video or that the game is on apple TV plus is like a genuine user interface Victory. Uh, and I also think IT makes a lot of sense for esp n as like a hello.

our standards of one. This is what I mean TV guy, literally I remove IT on David. I feel you're going to try to convince some people to buy this thing. And i'm telling you already immediately saying .

that I have IT IT. So this thing is called blad note pin yeah and it's we're just in this phase of everybody launching little tiny voice recorders that then use ChatGPT to summarize whatever they hear, like they all have bigger ideas. But that essentially what IT is, uh this one is just cool because it's like a little it's a little guy.

It's a wearyful IT comes with uh a language and a clip and something else. Oh, and I think you can wear in the rest. So the idea is like it's it's wearable, you you tap IT you talk to IT IT summarizes or not? Is that anything I don't know.

But this is like, this is the thing, right? Like microsoft all is a version of this, the limitless less thing, which we've talked about as a version of this, this idea like how do we make IT easy for you to input all of your stuff into an A I system. And then I will make something out of that for you, is like a the big new product question for a lot of these companies.

I don't know if anything that amounts to anything. I have just been sitting here like yelling thoughts into this thing all day, and I just keeps transcribing them being like to remember that your meeting is an hour. My god, this is useful. What I get from this.

this is like, were those journals of the pens and in the new book. And then I wanted to be a life, a live person. So bad, so bad.

And now it's a little chat. B, T, A, I bubbled device. I look forward to your review. I encourage everyone to wait for the government. The good news is .

this is a thing A I can actually do, which, like summarized a, but like voice to text, to memorization A I is good at all of those steps, unlike so many other things. Like, I watched a very funny video of somebody reviewing the brilliant frame glasses and got flashbacks s to doing the review of the human AI. And we are just sitting there asking really basic questions. He was sitting there holding up like a um I think what I was a drink of some kind, I think and I kept being like that a bag of potato chips like, no, it's not and it's just like, yeah this is where I I is but some raising text on point I look again.

I look forward to you and if you don't have the chart of wearable bullshit in their view, is what i'm saying. The maker of the books, pala, has a new cheaper eraser.

Don't you don't get .

IT what you're saying not to get IT?

okay. So it's one hundred and fifty dollars. It's the books six go and it's their new small, low budget, cheap era that also runs android.

So you think, oh, these are all good things. Oh, it's cheaper than the books, palmer, but I get a wider screen and that sounds great. Then you look at how much RAM IT has, and then you look at how much .

RAM the book's pala has. Oh god, it's only two gigs of RAM.

only two games are. And don't I like i've had a couple of book's products where they were they skip on the RAM and you feel that it's real, real rough? yes.

So that's the sort of thing that like on a kindle, you don't really have to worry about RAM because it's kind of only doing one thing, yes, but like you're gna accidentally have three apps open at the same time on this thing, and that is just .

going to set this up on fire. Resist the urge. I know books put more, ramon, like it's not that you're not apple, it's I mean.

this point, we are just directly controlling books. Is business right?

trying?

We will tell you what to do, right? Speaking of RAM makes me answer. The dyson erap ID is a new, smarter hair color.

I put this sign here because one is alex, mention to us many, many times the dice and supersonic. That's the hair drier. And arab legitimate gadgets, like insane gadgets in the classic don mode of we made a fan.

What can have a fan? And then remember when they got all of a car? No, no, fans.

you know, they stopped that. They stopped fans. They got to, they, they do IT like a hair syren now. And as, where is the fan in this hair serum? I'm calling right now.

I in your way at your land. Yeah, friends only I really wanted the car to have a fan. Anyway, tell me you.

Okay, so this is the new air rap. They've released a couple of different editions at this point. This once got a couple of different um extensions, one that like just is gonna suck your hair slightly differently. I probably should explain what an arab does after .

saying that hair .

yeah the erp sucks your hair you direction .

IT sucks your hair .

in one of two directions and and then you like you can put hot air on IT or cold air on IT yeah and it's magic and if you have ever tried to curl your hair or have thought about IT, it's it's horrible and and this makes IT these years for those of us who don't want to a worry about having hot medal near faces OK.

Someone asked you this question at this one. Yes, the addition to this .

one is that he has blue tooth .

is what I .

think the APP could probably be split. You could just not get this and turn on use youtube. But tiktok, I give you the same thing. But yeah, it's supposed to kind of guide you through doing the hair and making here you your holding IT for a long enough because a lot of people just do you want to .

be like that looks good is just like smart of in theory where you like you have A Q R code of a hair style and then I just like, does the settings for you yeah.

yes, yeah, that kind of walk you through IT. I'm gna play with this APP, obviously, but that's kind of the idea just to help you make things a little easier through some blue truth. And so yeah more gadget .

but onest .

ly the the extensions for other cool part they're doing like one for curly hair and one frustrate or hair. So curly hair people get like more diversity than stuff which is very exciting.

And it's just as stupidly expensive as the area and it's worth so whatever .

or so in your life want to get IT.

I bought one for Betty because alex has been so high on these things for so long. And and in the spirit of no one, nobody is that I bought without the blue youth, the bluestone was on IT. Also, if I thought back blue youth, if I would like, would you know? Thank you. Never i'm never using this functionality before. Like week, both back in max look like like full texas really like great just .

big hair every day and how you know one ah .

know the weird thing is I S like light up someone told me hot air um like the hair Price is is like light of their hair fires yeah .

now that makes sense. Hair hair spray ah you're not don't breathe that stuff. I mean, IT smells great.

but don't have that. Here's i'm saying, dyson, find more things to put fans in. That's your lane.

And I I was fully support IT get to a car. Get to a hovercraft car. This is what I am trying.

This is why your first car failed. IT wasn't floating on a bed of perfectly produced air. They got this.

I believe.

such great hair. Do you think they were like, electric motors are kind of like fans, right? Their fans of that players, and they're will do electric meters scale.

I'm James dyson, sir James dyson. Come on the show. I've only one question for its not where the full decoder did you think electric cars or fans .

without plates .

yes or no sir just say yes or no.

We're going to get James lesson on the show and we're going to play can you put a fan in that? We're going to do that for one full hour of forecast, and it's going to be incredible. And I honestly believe you would say yes to doing that. That's this is my new goal. Can you put a fair in that with James dyson?

Gotten from.

yeah.

let's go snapp chat finally launched.

I pad up .

good right? Little like the thirty year old. But I like they can use their ipads now. But I feel .

like this belongs. And is this anything how that right? It's like it's a bunch of weird I I got you like snatch I like not anything, but we were all of instagram yeah and they're never onna get .

IT and snap is like IT clearly wants you to use IT to like watch originals and stories and stuff. Uh, I don't think this is gonna be like a super kick as messaging system Snapchat for the ipad. I'm so sure. Speaking of instagram.

another classic all time had line on the verge of com. Instagram adds what photos have always needed words. It's good. Yeah, I look a lot of photos and think.

what if I just had a letter on IT?

Basically, you can now put text in the on photos instagram editor, which is fine because you could hard .

to do that because everyone has figured out how to do this anyway.

But the fact that instagram is slowly becoming canvas, because instruction is slowly becoming cracks.

list very real. Oh, that's okay. So I the reason I put this in here is that I was gonna ask, are we headed towards the world in which threads and instagram are just the same thing? Instagram is going to a get taxi and threads is gonna get photos y and there is in the same. But what you're saying is threads is going to become instagram because instagram is becoming correct list.

No threads is going to .

become instagram ah I think know that the point of threads is extremely leading questions about nothing and they're just going to keep leaning right into I come up with list of questions, ask threads like every day that's like I was walking on the street and I saw guy wearing headphones as anyone seen, they're going to be as before, get all day long. You get like I could be the most popular person on threats tomorrow.

Uh, you can just do IT all they want. You just like look at things because anyone ever seen this. I saw one today. Today, a person posted their own airplane, and you know, sometimes airplane report and this conversation coming out the plane, and I don't know, they were just like, I ve never seen this on a plane before, and I fly all the time.

My plane is wet.

all just like millions of people like you have never been in a lot of people.

He was asking you going to die. People were like, no. But i'm just saying.

in fact, like millions of people will fall for the worst engagement bit on threads means we've learned nothing. You know, I like we just to do like you're here because you do you think people are smarter than photoshop, you know? And everyone like we know this. I won to show you this picture of condensation on a plane and millions of people bringing one of our biggest tech companies, algorithms, to its knees over the domestic age. Bate world.

IT is fun, just as like an intellectual exercise to look around and just think, like, what engagement baby question could I ask?

You can just post a picture of anything.

but what is this? Yeah, like my water has bubbles in IT that happened.

This is what we're doing for no one. I'm just get ready. It's coming. Anyway, my point is I think they know they want that thing.

They want a bunch of calm tweet during N, B, A games, right you. That's not actually a visual communication moment, but it's a place for people to engage. And they just want to engage when they put the answer.

Well, not that photos, not I think they're happy with what they've got. I think instagram is becoming a marketing for. I was a marketing platform and increasingly, what they are marketing is small business services.

So being able to put the picture on your studio with the text, it's like your class, like they're just onna do IT um in that I think that that's why I was like it's canvas because that's what canvas does for people. great. cool. Soon i'll just be A I like generate photo of be fine. Our last one, we've gone this whole time with talking about IT the type up for one second in the lighter because a confident next week of the full preview apple iphone sixteen launch event is september nine.

IT sure is a glow time.

right? That's the line that got .

to be for the syria, right?

The syria effect. Yeah, which I am mixed about. Okay, I have I I I see this going one of two ways, and i'm curious which you guys think that is one, this is just another A I show there is going to be some new hardware.

They're gna. But all they are going to talk about is how like the new whatever chip inside of the iphone sixteen gives you more A I stuff or this is going to be like a massive new hardware rev. We're going to get the camera button.

They're going to get new designs, new colors, all kinds is of like I could see this being either incredibly boring or incredibly huge, cool, exciting new iphone year. And I kind of feel like it's nothing between IT all. Seems to me that depends on how exciting apple really thinks. Apple intelligencies.

I think it'll be between because that they do that needle wwdc or they took all the really cool stuff that was going to happen and they're like this happening, really like button cool new phones. 哎。

that is true. Like wwdc was actually like very good and totally overshadowed by the weirdness of apple. And yeah.

I think we've got to talk about IT. It's the thing that's coming next year in this phone will be the bleating edge of IT. I don't know questions whether they bring those features to the base model phone for lack of a Better word, right?

This is the iphone sixteen get apple intelligence or just the sixteen pro because only the fifteen pro of is getting IT right. If the sixteen is getting in the regular or sixteen, that's the big upgrade cycle and they're onna reintroduce all of the features because that they know the general consumers do not pay attention to doc, right? That's that's the tech audience that developers apple releases new iphone. It's gonna have the features is coming later this year will be able to tell syria to do whatever you can tell city to do. That's your good morning america.

Yeah, we have seen some rumors, I think that that that was going to come for the sixteen, right?

I assume so. But understanding that's my guess that like this is that's the baLance set out. I'm excited for my shop. I think we're else .

exciting new watches.

new .

watches, new by a going to any computer. I can keep everything else the same for another year. But I an m for mac minister, replace the m one mac mini that is sitting here. I want IT so big.

If that is here in two weeks, I don't know. I don't want to pay U.

S. money. This was the full preview. Next week I go do some reporting things, some real thoughts of previous.

That's next week episode. That's why we ended the lighting around the unsponsored, lighting around tim cook. You, you, you could tried.

That is the .

big announcement IT on. So finally, I vergers here that can put IT up. I vergers real.

That's a deep cut. That's a very chest. I want to a shot, one big story. We do a deep dive into open sea this week. IT is a great story of some incredible quotes in IT. And also one of those, one of those moments, like fills and ether and chief hearts with joy. Part of our story, as we didn't know, open sea gun cc investigation notice and they tried to front on our story, but I announcing .

the next .

the day before publish always win .

so that we should also say where off sunday and tuesday uh the third episode of our productive ity series is actually going to for eight. So will be back friday to do an ipad preview. Ipad will be back friday to do an apple preview and then sunday with that and then all kinds apple stuff week after.

it's going to be alright. That's IT. That's a chest back .

and that's IT for the verge cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call at eight, six, six verge one one.

The bird cast is the production of the verge and box media podcast network. Our show is produced by hand rer marino and leon James. That's IT we'll .

seen next week.

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