The smart glasses era is (kind of) here
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Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcast of glass holes and friend David piers. And I am currently in my I don't know, we call IT the utility room, but it's the room with like my washing and the fairness and also it's like where we keep all extra paper tales. What do you call that room that I am? I just finished my latest home improvement project, which was to replace a bunch of doorknob over the course.

The last two years since we got that, has i've gone from lake I can put together, I key a furniture and feel unnecessarily proud of myself for a week level handy. I can watch, punch youtube videos s about that, and probably figure out how to take IT apart and out of the wall and put IT back together and back in the wall again. Feels like big progress.

Not really sure it's actually all that big progress. But anyway, I just replace to bunch of dornoch, which I truly cannot recommend enough as a project to give you more pleasure than IT was work. Like now, every time I hold on to that dorot, my god did this even though I was was like growing for screws and screw 4 screws back in again。 And by the way, if you have more ideas for home improvement projects that are very little work and make you feel very proud of yourself for a long time, please send them my way.

I'd love to hear all about them. Anyway, we have an awesome show coming up for you today. We're going going to talk about the right to repair t that has happened in california.

There's a new law there that actually think it's a big deal for the whole way that we buy and repair and use our electronics. We're also gone to talk about the new smart glasses from meta and raban. I think these are fascinating.

You've heard me talk about why I think smart glasses are interesting really for the last few weeks since amazon launched the number of frames and meta has these new smart glasses. This is just a device category I find totally fascinating. The song has been reviewing them for us.

We're going to talk to her and get the whole run down. And of course, we're going to get to the verge of tot line. We have a fun one today, which is a question I have also had.

All that is coming up in just a second. But first I just realized all of the batteries to my drill are now dead because I don't use this, take enough and should probably be charged more often. And stuff we're going support for the show comes from crucible moments, a podcast from scope capital.

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Now that com splash A I for people to learn more. Welcome back. Let's talk about glasses first because, like I said, I am totally fascinated by this whole category, our smart glasses.

The future, are they? nothing? I don't know, but I do know this. Nobody is pushing the idea of smart glasses harder than met up right now.

I really think that meta believes that smart glasses is something that looks like a pair of glasses but is just absolutely loaded with technology. Is the future in a very real way? It's new smart glasses, which you made an in partnership with rave and just went on sale.

They started two hundred and nine box. They look pretty nice. They are very much not that tech field future of everything. But meta says they're vastly Better than the last model. The stories for everything from taking phone calls to taking video. The virtuous Victoria ong has the smart glasses, and she's been wearing them all over new ork for the last few days, so I called her up to see what life is like as a smart glasses wear in twenty twenty three v welcome back. hello. The listener should know that what happened when we got on this call to do this was you showed up wearing the smart glasses and immediately took them off, which on the one hand is like you're sitting inside of your house wearing sung glasses, which is bad news, but also, like says something about the state of smart glasses that you could only handle being on camera with them on for about eight seconds before IT all fell part.

Well, a lot of this was because, you know, it's sunglasses and i'm indoors and my computer screen is not so blinding that I need that and my vision is not good at all. So this is like i'm going to blame meta for sending me the sunglasses version instead of the one with clear lenses or transition lands. But IT kind of IT does kind of get to the issue of this whole smart glasses, smart sunglasses divide. I just had this on so I could take a tiny little clip because we're gona do a social video like day in the life, and this is part of my day in the life. So that's all I love that for you.

So let's start with big feelings about smart glasses. So you've had these things for several days now. You've been like running around using them in your real life, trying to like immerse yourself in smart glasses life as much as you can in order to do this review really well. What have you found about like how the world and the idea of smart glasses interact?

I feel we're in a weird middle because now i've been using smart glasses for years. I've use several iterations of these audio M A R T glasses before. And some of the ones that you know were more full featured like having a secondary display in your eyes and usually it's just, you know, they're fine up until you find the friction in your daily life.

You're just like, okay, it's just too much work to use these verses, my phone versus my Normal pair of glasses. So I will say that with these, that friction IT takes longer to get there. There are reasons why you would want to put IT on your face.

Where is in the past? I've always been like, no, why? Why would I reach for the smart one unless I have a very specific instance? But i've used a bunch in my career, and I have to say that these are the ones that have thus far kind of fit into my life the best, though there are a lot of a lot of caveats to that, like a lot of like asterius, gaster's, gaster's, aster's yeah unless .

I want to get to those in. But like the thing that jumps out to me the most, and I got a brief demo of this before the launch, where we just kind of got to like try them on, unlike the roof, a building in new york, and play with them for a few minutes. And the thing that jumped out to me the most was just that they look like sunglasses, which is such a stupid, obvious thing to say.

But like we've been talking about these devices for a long time, and like you said, we've tried the bose ones and amazon has the echo frames, which is also sort of pushing in the looks more lake glasses ROM. But like matters working with ray ban here. And i'm even looking at the one sitting on your head right now.

And like, if I didn't look for a long time, which no one is going to, people don't like really spend a lot of time staring other people's glasses. They just look like glasses. And that strikes me as like, very, very important. They are like easily the most cillit smart glasses i've seen. Has that been your experience so far?

And they're pretty on par, I think with like the boss prana, which is like the the nicer looking version of .

the boss tempo non oni .

version on like one of the the main criteria I grade these good technology .

test actually for like all wearables, like the joni factor, like one ten, I feel like that .

a so these are very not joni like. But what I will say is most consumers smart glasses, they go for the very boxy warby Parker wafer vibe because that's like, I think that's what they kind of identify that as the most univerSally flattering, although it's still not fluttering for everyone, most univerSally flattering form factor that they can go with.

And IT was a very smart choice for meta to team up with riband or sort lux oda, their parent company. Because you know rbs, everyone finds them to be like even if you don't like them, they are kind of iconic in terms of fashion. So yeah, these are probably in the top two of best looking a audio flash camera sunglasses i've ever worn uh, low bar since we're all kind of going for the same vibe.

But what I will say, you have so many more style options with this then you do with others. So that I think is a huge underrated plus with these glasses. Because talk about IT enough in terms of wearable, because for giggly people, we love to talk about the spaces and everything with that, but how they look.

And the design is such an integral and crucial part of smart glasses, more so than any other piece of wearable technology. Because on your face, and we are a vain creature, we are vetting people is like, if I put something on my face, IT Better, look good. I don't want to look like like I.

This is the money maker, right? This is how people see us. This is how people perceive us. No one's going to war.

Are these things if they're like, are you look like the kid from a Christmas story? Or like, you know, they get shoot desire with the bb gn. No one wants to look like that.

No one wants to look like a really dorky person. You want to look good. You want to look kingsman ex I and a nice little suit wearing his dbp, a little smart glasses.

That's what you want. Did I have spent so many years now telling people that like, forget ready player one, forget my report, forget her kingsman is the future of technology that we should all hope for. Like, just look at that movie and that's that's what I want.

I want to look like that. I want Green avars of people sitting around the table. We have a meeting like, give me kingman or gives me nothing. I could not agree with you more.

There are parts of like actually where I was testing these, where I was like a shit. I'm xy, just a good movie because there is the l crap. I got these smart glasses playing music.

Okay, to take them off. Now, I touched them actually only but kings men, he in the second movie, he's act like a dinner and he's just taking pictures and recording things. But I really felt like that this time around, because that's what I was doing on my commute one day.

And I felt like such a spy, like an in, I like, oh my god, taking pictures and people don't. No, it's it's totally like freek y and they have these little um L D S that are on the outside that was to signal when you're taking a video and when you're taking a photo. And what I found is that IT works indoors, especially if you're an ethical person and you're like, hey, I have this device and i'm going to do these things with IT. But when i'm outside, you be as to whether you can see IT easily .

and IT requires like looking at you while you do, which most of the time, again, no one is. I am glad you brought that up.

And I like I start with that because like, not only do I think the way that IT looks is important to the way works, I think it's the whole thing, right? And I think we we've talked about IT like, oh, you to have cool technology and they have to look cool now if he doesn't look cool, none other rest of IT matters, right? Like I think that's what we learned from google glass.

That's what we learning with the V, R headsets. Like if you don't have something that is at least inoffensive that no one is going to look at you when you walk by on the street, like that's the baseline. The Better part of IT is you get to the lake.

You know, I feel like where apple got with like the wired headsets back in the day where they could just do a and you saw nothing but the White wire, and you knew exactly what I wasn't. You ve like made something iconic. That's what you want with all this.

But none of IT matters. If IT doesn't cool, no one's going to war. Are these things especially on their face, if you can make them fashionable and silence and make people actually want to wear them, even features aside? And the good news is, I think billaud everyone now knows that because of the way that google glass went.

So I am optimistic about the road all of these are on, but you brought up the camera. And I think the two reason these things exist is, one for the sort of audio stuff, which I think is interesting, making calls, playing music, that kind of think. And the camera and matter obviously made a big deal about the camera, is they put in a lot of the engineering work you can do, the life streaming on that.

We have not had good luck with face cameras in the past being like good cameras that you actually take videos and photos you want to do things with. Well, how did these turn out? how?

How did that he feel? Surprisingly good, really the point where you are angry because the original rebound stories looked like potato vision, and even you took a picture on IT kind of looks like a potato, right? There's just nothing you can do about IT.

It's fuzzy IT looks like circa twenty ten level phone camera this I think you could get away with saying, oh, and iphone took this photo like IT. That good there's cavy ots again, like there is a little fish distortion going on with everything you take and you really can't think about IT until you warn IT. But there's a real P O V factor to all the photos and videos that you take with this.

So if you're on a phone, you can see what your film made. You know when you're off filter, you know, like to kind of just my girl, I just what you're doing things yeah not necessarily what you're gonna thinking about money of glasses because you're not seeing the footage as it's being taken in real time. So there's a lot of photos that I took where i'm like during the puppy dog, tired, tired to aside because i'm looking at something and I was actually a behavior I didn't know I did until I was like relook at my footage.

I was like, oh, I told my house when i'm looking at things, when i'm trying to suss things out. The other stuff is like, I have curtain banks, which are, you know, if you don't know, fashion curtain bangs are face length framing banks. I have a lot of ruin photos of my cats because there's just hair like obscure ing part of their cute face. So now I have to do this thing where it's like when I put these glasses, the new behaviors to switch back my banks so that they don't ruin any footage.

And that's not something I ever thought about before or when i'm walking and taking video and i'm talking with someone like he was very funny watching this footage back because you can just see me look straight every so often while my partner was talking sometimes that like the most crucial interesting parts because what i'm doing is trying not for on my face, i'm trying to see where i'm going. I'm not trying to walk into a tree like leude style. So there's just kind of a real found footage quality to the videos that i've taken thus far.

And it's a muscle memory that you have to learn. You have to retrain yourself entirely to film in this context. But it's still like in terms of video quality and photo quality, you could share IT very easily and no one would know that IT taken on a potato camera. It's shareable. It's share ready, which is pretty freaking y when you think is about IT.

Ah it's interesting to think about taking photos at your eye level, which is essentially with the cameras are there went outside the eyes right as you're in the glasses that seems like IT would be very natural IT takes a picture of what you're looking at but you never really think about all the work your brain is doing when you're looking at something that the camera can then do to do things like soup for head till like your brain doesn't think the world old goes a cue every time you till your head to look at something but your cameras share going to and the thing where you can look down because it's going to scrape you're shot like in a way that seems like we sort of all understand the like language of how to take a phone photo now.

And IT seems like doing IT without any of that guidance or help or sort of dynamic feedback would be much harder. Like if you find themselves taking pictures, you thought we're gonna be good at the moment, that turned out to be bad just because of the like mechanics of how you shot IT. Like if you had stood there and taking a picture with an equivalently good phone camera would IT have turned out Better than what you got out of your glasses.

absolutely. So many, I would actually say, like the majority of my first day to be just taking photos, a lot of them ended up being like, no good. Because I would look at like, what came out and be like, go, the quality is really impressed, especially I was impressed by the low light.

But like, the quality is impressive. But I can use this because IT looks like one. I really love a dutch ankle, which I don't, because my head is tilted. But also there is things like movement. I guess the big sell is that when you're on the go and you see something like, oh, your cats is doing something really q and you just want to like, get IT real quick, well, you actually have to be quite still.

You have to stand still and you have to like, click IT and you can't move while you do IT otherwise you're just gonna get, or unless this is what you want, a very blurred motion shot. Uh, so a lot of the shots I took on my first walk, I couldn't actually see what I was taking a photo of. Well, because I like that's a beautiful shot of the queensbridge and it's blurry or that's a car that I think my partner would love to know what IT is, is yellow and sporty and I don't know what cars are.

So oh, well, I can't see the logo now because it's a little blurry like there is a lot of that going on. So once you're aware of IT, you can just kind of adjust and be like if i'm going to take a picture, I need to stand still, click, wait for the sound and then move on. So it's a little bit of learning how to work with the device in that respect.

But the difference is, is that if you do, do that, the result of what you're gonna get is a lot Better than what we've seen so far in this category. So of like a IT sort of a noticeable step in terms of progression forward. So I was I was quite like shocked and at the same time, like, oh, this is how i'm going to have to adjust to use this properly.

Yeah, that kind of makes that makes sense. Why all of met us marketing material for this is like put on the glasses, start a video and then sit down and played rums or look down while you use your hands to make something like there is a very sort of specific moment for IT. Like i'm sitting on the couch and my kid over there is something interesting like that. That's a moment for IT. Whether I think a lot of the sort of run and gun stuff phones are really good for these might not be despite the fact that this seems like they would be because they are on your face is just really interesting like tone shift in what these things are actually for versus what IT seems like they ought to before .

because they're on your face yeah like I will say that you can get some footage that you could never get with your phone like you know, anyone who's taking a picture of a kid or an animal before knows that they know what a phone is, right? They change their behavior as soon as the phone comes out. This, you can like just click a little button.

And I got some really cute footage of my kid and just yearning and making biscuits that he would have not done if I had my phone out, because he will have a phone time for a snack, chomp, chop on the phone camera. But he's not gna do that because I have my glasses on. Like those are instances we are like, oh, man, this is so cool.

And for me, I just like, this is very, very specific to smart wash reviews. Only the next time the video team asked me to take a social video of myself putting on a watch, hello. Lua, because do you know how party .

is .

to hold the phone and prop that up and then put on a watch? It's a two hand of job. So any time you want to take like hands free phone footage, it's not every instance.

But depending on who you are, there may be a ton of instances where that's really cool, like maybe you're a musician and you want to play, film yourself, playing piano like, wow, you can do that now instead of having to wear a go pro on your face that that's what IT is like instances where you would be like, man, if only I could stick a phone on my head or a go pro on my head. This does a really good job of replacing that. I think, no.

I think that that's really interesting. And I remember, I think he was Anthony Brown in a bunch years ago, talked about how much IT changed the kind of show he was able to make when he started using iphone instead of big, giant T, V cameras. Just like the vibe in the room is different when you have these phones that people are used to being film ed on and kind of understand what they are as opposed to like big as shoulder mounted cameras. And I feel like there is a world in which the smart glasses kind of go the same way, where it's like just you're able to feel more into mate and literally get places and shots you couldn't with any other device because there is now nothing between you and the subject.

It's very social. It's not like onna do a youtube video movie shot on these glasses. It's very like for your social media. There's like things within the the made of view APP that make IT easy to share to instagram or like what's up you know, all of meters services, but it's just very easy to make that transition. And like I don't live stream, but I have like tried out the live stream kind of connectivity. It's freaky how fast I just recognizes that I ve got a of these pair like I just pull up instagram reals and I can see that it's there.

And you just like double tap .

to switch between cameras that's prety cool type of later. That's gonna love doing that. That's not me. But also, you know it's kind of weird to kind of test that because you're going life in a live stream and then people just going have questions. That's not a thing.

I've been able to really explore IT, just having IT there, being able to recognize IT without me, having to go through a really long set up process that was like, oh, that's interesting where you come up against the wall of like, okay, that's not how people are onna use this is who really is using instagram reals for this type of content. It's tiktok. Tiktok ers are the ones who we are going to want this type of like livestream capability built with the lasses, and it's kind of limited to real. So that feels like arbitrary ecosystem guarding. When you consider like if you didn't do that, if you work tiktok to make IT a compatible thing, this would like sell like hot cakes immediately.

So I mean, i'm not one time any bit surprised that matter is doing that. But IT also makes me hope that somebody else comes out and says, like we are the content. Notice one, right? Not like you can if you could share is easily to like shorts and tiktok and reels and go live on twitch and youtube and tiktok and river us.

That becomes a pretty cool creator tool in a way that there really isn't anything other than phones right now that. Do that. And I think that could be very cool. But I Frankly, I would have been shocked if that I had to open this stuff up more than IT has.

Yeah yeah. absolutely. Like IT makes sense. Like people going to put their ecosystems first, always. It's just one those things really like, yeah, but that's not the reality of how content creators were.

So that's just one of those things where it's like maybe down the line, we will see that happen. Maybe that wants to be the one who makes that particular hardware for everyone to use. So I get IT if .

I know anything that someone in the E. U. Is already glasses interact ability rules. So it's it's gna happen. What about the the like headphone replacement piece of this? I think one of the reasons i'm the most excited about this is for audio and calls and microphone stuff.

How do these do so? I think you sound great when you wear them and you take videos like there is a new microphone in the nose. And I thought that was kind of silly first, but you do really found a lot more present and clear. It's a really smart .

place to put a microphone. Actually, I had not thought about IT until they explain IT. But like, that is such a great place to your mouth. And it's such a, like, they can explain IT straights downwards. Like I was, I had high hopes for its so glad works.

I sound so clear and all the videos I took, even if there was went out, went outsides great and you sound more like the narrow or when you do IT that way just because IT does record and stereo. So when you put IT on and you listen to the videos that you took, you do sound like the main character of your video. I don't always been unknown recording because i'm going .

to be like sweeping .

my bank to the five IT and IT does IT in stereo. When you look into IT.

you can like, how is the toria socks?

Like you can tell that you are the narrative and that you were talking and that if you were talking to someone else there over there, like you can tell that which I thought was like a very solar touch. But you know, I wore IT on the very loud new york subway, and on a traun and a various forms of public transit. There are quite loud on these forms of public transit, defending on what train line you take.

And like on the four, five, I could listen, and I could drown everybody out. But if you live in new york, you know the four five is a fancy train. It'll maintain.

I also took the N. R W. And IT was, is a lot harder to, like, listen to my music.

And that with, thank you, screeching and being loud. So IT really depends on the area you're in. I didn't have anyone yelling at me like turn out your h so on on that respect.

No one you all at me. So I can be really hard to hear other people though what you cracked IT up really loud. But um as far as I goes, it's very similar to other smart glasses with audio components.

I do think IT has good sound quality. Is that the best sound quality for IT listening to the base heavy tracks of EXO? Not really any year is always going to be Better than that, but it's good enough for my ones. Is IT good enough for a race now I wouldn't take IT in race because in the risk they blair their own music and that makes for a bad time if you're very music dependent like I am. So that's just kind of how IT works there.

So hit me with some of the caveats. What sucks about these things? I got rather specific things that drove you, not about the way that they work.

Battery life. You know battery life is is what they say IT is it's just, you know, I have bad eyes. I need a vision like help all the time.

I need either classes or my contacts in terms of these you know, if they run out of battery while i'm going about my full day trying to use these as my main driver, that's annoying to charge my main seeking device. You can't really use this as your soul pair of glasses. You are going to need a back up pair because this charges within a case.

So you can even like plug yourself into a wire while you're working and have that work. Now you have to plug IT into the eyeglass case so you can just use this as your soul pair of glasses. And if you get IT as, uh, sunglasses, you really have to think about what situations you're going to be using this.

And if you want to be endorsed, it's really not going to work for you. And then if like me, you have really, really terrible vision. There's a limit as to what prescription glass ray bounds says they support its negative six to plus four.

I fall outside of that. That really sucks for me. IT means I to keep wearing contacts with these. And that makes life kind of difficult to manage because, you know, the thing I think we don't really talk about with smart glasses is that glasses are on medical device. People need them to see, and you need to see at all times.

So when you add a charging battery component to that, you're saying that this can't be your your main glasses all the time. You need up back up. And that's very expensive in the united states, not in korea, which is why my family all goes to korea for glasses. But you're asking people to spend like four hundred to seven hundred just to have two pairs of these at any given important time, which you I I don't love. I think that's a major barrier.

Yeah, this is why transition lenses are the future. I know we were on a few episodes to go and me I talked a lot of crap about transition lenses and the number of people who have told us that actually transition lenders are good. I support you. You are my people. And i'm sure my dad was one of them.

They are absolutely a service smart glass, and they don't think the sun glasses, if you want to wear them in your daily life, sunglass are not option. But if you want to go outside and not have your ice bulls burn off because know I health is important and U V rays or damaging, then you can't really have the clear glasses all the time. So you really do need transitions if you want these glasses to be on you at all times and to have a camera at all times.

So IT seems like we're not all the way there. We haven't sort of fully solve these problems. There's a lot of interesting like software stuff love to do, especially in the camera, but IT does sounds like meta has probably made the most convincing case yet that like there's something here that the camera can be good, the audio stuff can work.

They're working out a bunch of. They are stuff that I think is going to a get more interesting over time. But I take edda wants the gadgets of the future to look a lot like the thing that you're wearing on your head right now, right? Like it's a huge amount of technological work to get there. But I think i'm at least you know one percent more convinced than I was before this is that that's yeah so what i'm .

going to say is I have tested a lot of smart glasses in the past and I have been made fun of consistently and constantly when I wear them. This is the first time where, you know, i've had people go like, oh, no, this is a privacy nightmare. Get away from me but i've had Green more people go like, oh my god, that's so cool.

I'm buying them. Where do I pre order? And that, I think is huge because i'll be all be real.

My husband is the biggest, the humble. He gives me humble because he's always like, that looks stupid. That's why would anyone have that?

Why do you were five watches at a time? Yes.

yeah, are you my this is. But this is the first like pair of smart glasses that i've ever warned that they've gone. Holy crap.

I'm going to order my own pair. They are waiting to order these and so they can have their prescription. And they're like, super excited about IT.

That's so weird to me. One alex craze had a few day at the office stealing them for me, taking the world blurrier photos, just running. There's so bad.

They're so bad. But he ran around the office with you like a child. Oh my god, this so cool.

And IT was like, oh my god, I ve never seen someone that excited about a pair. Smart class, as i've ever tested in my life. That's something to me, you know.

outcries take you bad pictures is the first .

sign of any good category shots, my small.

all right view. Thank you. I want to talk about these, mark, because the echo friends are coming out.

There's more to do. I think this is like the next phase of these, I think is gonna really interesting. So we're going to have we're going to have to keep .

in touch on on all the smart glasses stuff.

Absolutely going to make the X Y spidery a reality from your man. We had to take a break, but then we're going to come back and we're going talk about right to repair. see. Thank you for great that. Hey, it's lee from the koto with new IP top, we spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what are putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

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right. We're back before we get turn next segment. Actually, one more quick thing on smart glasses. One thing that's not on the metal smart glasses, at least not yet, is augmented reality.

When meta launched these glasses a few weeks ago, mark soccer berg said that in a software update next year, the glasses will turn multimodal. That's the used here's the way he described how that will work. So the glasses are going to be able to understand what you're looking at when you ask some questions.

So if you want to know what the building is that you're standing in front of, or if you want to translate a sign, let's in front of you to know what it's say more. If you need help fixing this sad lek fact, you can basically just talk to me A I, and look at and walking through d step I step out to do IT. So you I think that smart glasses are going to important platform for the future.

You are not only because they're the natural way to put holograms in the world so we can put digital objects, you know, our physical space, but also because if you think about its smart glasses or the ideal form factor for, you'll let an AI assistant see what you're seeing and hear what you're hearing. The smart glasses obviously don't have a screen, so we'll use your phone as the display for all that stuff. It's basically a companion to your glasses.

I actually think that's super clever and a smart way to do A R glasses before it's possible to put all the hardware and offer we're going to need into IT isn't looking Better glasses. But the race to watch out for is between that approach and the one taken by a company like x reel, which used to be called, and real, you might have a of back then, but is now called x rael. For reasons I don't totally understand, no matter i've been toying around with x riel's latest classes, they are called the air and they are essentially the opposite of the meta smart glasses.

They're not smart at all, but they do have a display right now. They're basically a projector on your face. You can plug them in your phone or your game console and see your video on a big virtual screen in front of your eyes.

You can plug them in your computer and use them for virtual test tops. They don't do much of anything by themselves. They're just a screen you can put on your face.

They're not the most stylish glasses. They have displays underneath each lens. So they are big and bulky, but they work pretty well actually.

And I really enjoyed using them for watching shows that I would otherwise stare out on the tiny screen on my phone or even playing games. I packed my into my switch and have been using in that way. It's very cool.

So that's really the battle, I think. Can someone like x reel at the smarts and the looks faster than meta can figure out how to get a display into these glasses? I don't know who i'd bet on there.

I think probably mea butley. And in the meantime, which of those approaches is actually useful to the most people? Is that matters A I and camera? Or is IT having a display interface?

I don't know, but I am absolutely convinced that meta, in particular, is ready to see this all the way through alex y, that our team has done some really good reporting on the road map. The road map is long. Meet is in this for the long calm.

It's going to be super interesting to watch, especially over the next couple of years as everybody tries to figure out what anybody actually wants from these classes. Anyway, sorry, brief diversion. Let's get to the excitement. Last week, california governor Gavin newson signed into law a bill called the rate to repair act, which is pretty much what IT sounds like.

IT makes IT official that gadgets should be reparable, but IT does so in some important specific ways under the law for any electronic made and sold after july first twenty twenty one and costing more than fifty dollars, the manufacturer of that device has to make tools, parts, software and documentation available for people who want to repair those devices. Some of these devices you be able to repair yourself, others you'll take to repair shop. And those repair shops, this is important, will be far more equipped and unable to actually help you than before.

This law is a huge win for the right repair movement, which has been deadly fighting for laws like this all over the U. S. And around the world.

So to help figure out what that means and what that means for how we buy and use and fix our electronics, I grab b two people who know very well the virtually shaan hoster. And I fixed CEO kyle wins on hoster. Hello, hi. That means welcome back to work.

Hey, thanks me.

So there's a lot of ratto repair stuff to talk about. But first, let's just kind of catch up on where we are. And IT seems like this bill that was just signed into california law is like if you if you were to pick a moment that you won at right to repair, IT feels like this would not be a bad one to choose that.

Fair to say this is far away the most broad sweeping bullet we've had and and the retroactivity is helpful. The brother of liability of a variety of products. California had an existing law that we modified, and most people know this, but california is this local, the beverly song warrant text.

It's the best consumer protection law in the world, really the lemon law, right? Yes, it's the lemon law that says that you have to be allegation your product service for seven years, which is longer than even europe, another places. So the richer payload can modified and improves that lemon law.

We think about the lemons w most people think this is like the thing that protects you from buying a shitty used car though, right? People don't know that IT has anything to do with their .

other electronic right. But late in california, apple will repair products for seven years. They don't do that anywhere else in the world. So if you have a six year old macbook and you walk into an apple stern new york city, they won't work on that. But if you go into the apple stern L A, they will.

That D I, I genuinely did not know that apple .

has they have to call vintage and obsolete in certain in five and seven years. And at five years, they cut the world off except california. And then seven years they cut california. wow.

And I think that goes back to just the brother question, like how long should things last when we talk about, you know, you're buying a new thing or the verge is recommending a product cool. I'm about how long i'm going to use those new airports for. Well.

that's actually the thing I was going to you were involved in this bill from the beginning, as far as I understand, right? Like you were an active participant and crafting this, that's one of the things you have to figure out, right? What is a reasonable amount of time to expect a gadget to work?

absolutely. Seven years seems to be the magic number. Five, seven years.

seven years as the devo t would be likely know, I should mention california's law, the right repair law is twenty twenty one devices and forward, but that twenty twenty one, this kind of one time date. So the retina L L over time will get Better and Better. The kind of compromise we negotiate with the apple was twenty twenty one, which is I fun .

twelve and forward. So why seven years though? Is that like, why not? Why not ten or five?

Like what was IT about seven years? Years was law historically. So that kind Taylor toward electronics, sea type Price, I don't think seven years as long enough.

I think that's a good place to start. But like I have a twenty twelve macbook pro that to work just fine. So we're going in eleven years on that one. I think we should be talking fifteen plus years, but you get to starts somewhere.

So the existing california law was IT requires the manufacturers to keep the parts around, requires them may be repair them for you. If you go get to the repair, you still had to pay them for that repair though. And they didn't necessarily like apple didn't necessarily have any obligation to send parts to you to thought that you could repair yourself. right? right.

Yeah, that's that's the big difference, the big change we're doing. What right rear bills that says manufacturer have to make the same parts tools, information available to consumers and independent repair shops that they have any apple store.

So walk me through that though because there's there's a letter of that law and there's a spirit of that law. And I feel like the spirit of that law is pretty straightfor, right? There are a bunch of tools. There are ways to make these things more fixed ble.

I should have the same access that somebody, apple, the letter of that law says that apple can do to shown what I did do to shown, which is ship him like nine thousand pounds worth of equipment in a bunch pelican cases, and say, here you go, jack, as you figured that out. And that's like, that's Better than nothing. There are tools that exists that you can get access to, that you can fix up.

But there are so much grave between the tools exist and you can have them to like IT is easy and doable for a regular human to fix things. Do we just have to be comfortable in that Grace space? For a while here we step back and say.

what are we trying to achieve? We're trying to have a robust repair marketplace where products get fixed, where they last a long time, where you local repair shops in their neighborhoods that convicts everything, that all the gadgets in our lives, where maybe we used up TV repair shops in our igher hoods, we don't anymore. Maybe those could come back. So what we're trying to get that and then with legislation, you try to approximate, you know, pointed fixes to try to nudge the world back in that direction. And then the companies can decide if they want a whole hearted embrace that and really work with you to try to address the systemic causes that have resulted that can the repair system breaking down, or they can engage in you this sort of compliance with the maximum amount of resistance, which has has been apples approach so far.

Rates, repair shannan.

malicious compliant ts.

Do you think like california has just put every manufacturer on notice for all kinds of electrics, not just like laptops and tables and phone book, anything over a certain value, right?

Anything over fifty books.

Are you expecting, in general, an explosion in parts of availability for these things? Or do you think there's going to be explosion and people attempting to sue companies for not making those parts available?

That's a good question. I would say you know, we're helping some companies, but i'm kind of shocked at the silence that we're seeing from the middle market for most companies. And obviously, MSN g an apple one log these companies out front that their paying attention. But the vast major mean, there's there thousands of these companies I have and i've only seen a handful of part program announcement. So I think I think companies are behind the and need to you get told january one.

how much this are you trying to do like this, a version of this where you could be sitting here thinking, like I just want a giant's business Operating for, I fixed. I am going to corner the market on human usable repair tools. And now that these things are available, more places like i'm going to be a billionaire. My sense would be this is probably too big for I fix IT to try and monopolize. Like are you sitting at this, looking at this as a huge business opportunity for you?

What the debate when we were working right of first, like, are we gonna pass laws to put I fix that the business, because the idea is the companies need to provide parts, tools, information on on their site. Like that's what I fix. IT does is how we always, we write, built an alternative ecosystem for a bl products. You can go and give that for, I fix IT. Now, in addition that I fix a service man, you can get the apple and you can get a service menu for the iphone.

So that is pretty cool. And just so I understand, apple partnering with I fix IT to sell stuff is not good enough under this law is that like apple has to offer IT self IT be IT would be.

I mean, that's how that's how samsung and others are complain and they they have to provide a link to where to go to get IT. So if if you provide a one, I fix that, that would meet the need. Some companies like samsung is purely going through us.

Others like microsoft is selling parts directly, which is great. I think that's fta. So we've been asking for a long, so it's really cool. Y it's certain happen.

Have you got ten an influx of of people asking you about this? I mean, you ve I got google and samsung and valve like very publicly we've written about IT other publications of written this is where do you go to get your parts for these devices? Are other manufacturer contacting you saying, guess do that for me too?

We have some companies that we're working with absolutely and and we're ready to go to help more. But like I said, i'm surprised we're not hearing from more you like picker random company like like bows, right? That they make a lot of products.

They are over year headphones that are sold in every year report. And these barns were other after a couple years and both us no strategy. We're not talking to them.

They don't have parts available for the they're quite comfort headphones. And I mean, they have to do something. And and I would say that's the default for almost all companies. It's more the exception than the rule they're talking us and working with us.

I'm curse what you've heard from the companies you've been negotiating with us on this front because I think about even a company like apples, probably easy want to think about, right? Because I think making a macbook more reparable pretty straight for like not easy, but doable. Like if we know what a reparable laptop looks like, when where you can open IT up and put in a new battery, right? We know what that looks like.

Phone less so, but still sort of double. But like you mentioned, airports. And i'm trying to imagine if i'm apple, how I literally how I make that tiny, little integrated thing with all the stuff in IT in a way that complies with these laws.

What have you heard from the folks who are trying to do these? Especially like you know smaller waterways, things like are for thring. You think we can do the thing that .

are asking to do? No, it's totally talked with I me. So for the airports, I would point to the samsung g galaxy buds ds, which I think the verge scored I easily identically to the part inside the sound quality ge, just as good.

So the galaxy buds you can pop open and swap out the baty easy. And and they're twenty five box for southern battery's farmers grade. We saw we can get them elsewhere. You just pop a open, there's a basket and that's how they all should be. So no, I I don't really accept ah that you can't make these things fixed ble as just a matter of effort.

When we got the apple watch, we uh we parted with a watchmaker, a local watchmaker, and we took at the part with hamon and he was just a guess he's like, you kidding me. This is the most suddy design product I ve ever seen and and that the architecture hasn't changed. Like, let's sick about the rolex.

And let's look at how you really do this and and you can see these things. You can have gaskets and and the form factors is similar, the size or similar, these are very small components, but they can be reparable. So there are short cuts that we take in mass manufacturer these things, but there are pass.

So when we we do a lot of consult IT with manufacturer, we give them feedback and we also kind of teach them design for reparable ly practices. And our point is consistently like we can innovate our way into the future. Here we can come up with new innovative technologies that make repair ring products at at scale, at the cost we need to hit possible.

How concerned are you with easily reparable versus, you know, reparable with a lot of knowledge and the parts of available? Because I just watched an amazing, amazing tear down by, I fix IT of the metal quest 3。 And I watched that tear down and I said, wow, that is a tremendous number of fifty screws to get to the battery.

All these layers of circuit boards, ribon cables, all the stuff. I looked at that video and I was of two minds about IT. One, oh my god, there's so many layers.

Do they really need to be them that many layers that they grew? And to the other side of my mind was every one of those steps seems easy. It's just a lot of them.

I could do that myself at home. No problem. Yeah.

as long as there is documentation, you can do IT. Uh, we just publish a airman of for the new pixel fold. It's dep, that is like a hundred and twenty six steps to get to the battery.

I'm not gonna recommend that be the first electricity here you ever try. It's kind of bordering on the edge of possible. I I think that this possible, we're selling repair kit for IT, but I don't expect very many people to take us up on IT. You get that with kind of new technologies where there is a lot of complex we've taken apart in which every br had sets since the oculus. This because i'm fascinated by the category. Clearly, it's some element of the future ah and and the mechanical design is really interesting and the sensors over time, you end up with consoler, don, you simply buy things down and me the apple watch system on on ship as they took all the discrete ics and they just bundle m together in the one silver package and there is no more visible complexity for a fixed or anymore. So you'll get there with the optics on on these vear heads heads .

over time yeah I think one interesting example of that tension they are describing shown is is I think like you look at the new surface stuff for microsoft verses like the framework thirteen right in the the framework stuff shown, which I am curious to hear your thoughts on because you mean a lot of time with these things is, I mean, that is designed for a regular person to take IT apart and put IT together, right?

Like that is the point you should be able to unscrew a thing, pull a thing out, put IT back in, screw back in, and you're done like that is, yes, a sort of n state of right repair that I think is really interesting. The surface stuff is designed sort of deliberately to be harder to do with that. They're trying to find a middle ground between like you can still get at IT, but it's not going to be a simple which gives a certain afford ces that we can have in design and materials.

Not that self is IT good that we have both of those approaches. Should we all aspire for every gadget to be like the framework? Or I can just ank a thing up and put another thing back in, like where do you feel like we should .

land here from my perspective, what the companies tend to argue, they tend to argue we get Better component density when we don't make things upgradeable, modular, reparable.

And I do think there there's definitely a gap between something as simply repair of authors, consumer upgrade able like a framework product where everything is little module and you can put them in because there's been many, many, many laptops that have had modular parts technically in them, but making them and the user, I pull a piece out, I stick another piece and exactly where that went within, you know, two minutes flat, and I have a new GPU. That's definitely something new and different in framework to be a plotted for that. But to your question, to your question like that density is less with the framework than IT is with the surface.

They cramb a little bit more into a tighter space in the surface. And I don't think that is enough justification from my perspective. I want the device that is upgraded year after year and modular and imminently reparable. But I can see why they come. And from that perspective, and I can see why they might be angry, that the laws say, well, do we have to redesign our products and think how we're doing our products differently in order to meet the goals of this law? I love to hear what ki us to say about that.

Well, I would know the registry laws in the U. S. Don't address design at all. So the companies united design products, however, they are IT just says if you have a repair network for your product, you have to make that competitive. It's really angling on that competition.

You can have a repair monopoly on your product is what the california and these other laws are tackling. In europe, they're more interested in in Mandating device design and banning lightning ports ah which we can argue about that. But they did IT was effective.

worked. Here we are. I got U S, B, C. Part of my iphone. That's cool. And we're gonna the with removable batteries on smart funds are going to Mandate removable batteries again. If you're going to pick a place to draw a line, I think consumer balls are a pretty good place to try line. And not saying you can not put the RAM in your smart phone. They are just saying the smart phone can't stop working when the, you know, the most fragile, chemically wearing component inside that fails, which seems like a good initial line to drop, was IT intentional .

to not think about design because I was I was thinking about, shown, as you were talking, the difference between this and the USB, the sea thing, where they are like, that is a proactive decision. They are like, this is what your thing is going to do.

And the e is pushing on a lot of that, even some of the after doing with messaging apps like Mandating that maybe in a Operates like they're telling people what their products will do and how they will work. And so far in the U. S.

Rate repairs has not done that like IT just seems like it's it's truly poking a bear. If you start to tell these companies what they have to do and it's it's a minor miracle the E. U. Got as far as I did. Yeah well.

absolutely. I mean, it's interesting that we got so much fight against the retrograding ses. They are is a really pretty dar minor. I mean, you know what apple had do little comply like it's not it's not a big tweet, is just a subber tweak. Now they fly against us for over ten years, uh, just on the subtle tweak.

So we we decided to focus on on what was achievable we talk about in place, is that at the overton window, which is the window of what cian can like plausibly do, politicians can't go out and, you know, do something totally crazy. This society would never put up with able. We elect them.

And then they do the things that they kind of within the scope of what is reasonable, right? So we pick something that was within the scope of of something that was pretty reasonable. This really important us of bypassed an legislation IT passed almost unanimously in california and overwhelmingly in in york and minus and other places. So we've been focused on on bypass and legislation that that can be consensus space, which which means that they'll be laws will stand the test of time. There won't be easy overturning.

Yeah I remember you and I talked a bunch of years ago about kind of the you were in the like we haven't yet one one, but we're about to win one phase of the ratter repaired c that there had been a bunch of almost a bunching near misses and you're like IT is only a matter of time and to a tip of this line and and your thought was we really just need one or two.

We don't have to get all fifty states and the federal government to pass rate or reparable. We need a couple of significant wants to make IT so hard for companies to make a million different versions of their garages that they're all just going to play ball. And it's gonna .

absolutely with the california law were up to twenty percent of the us. Population has passed the richer per i've .

heard for many years. And as california goes, so goes the nation. But then on on the other side of this call, you're telling me that an apple laptop has handled differently for repairs in california, that is in new york because that.

that is a business practice and they were able to kind of drive drive a wedge there. I'm hopeful that when the comes of things like you have to make the reparative tal online to see your product in california, where are they going to like gap, locate people and only make the repair mans available in all for doing IT nationwide. And and I think you will you'll continue to see that.

And I would assume part of IT is like, honestly, I would not put IT out of the realm of possibility that apple would do. I pet fence the exact like I really wouldn't. But the good news of IT is that stuff now IT exists in the world for regular like you don't have to hack apple servers to get that stuff IT just wants is out there. It's going to be out there, right? And as soon as the version of that manual on the existance of those parts is seen by some portion of the broader er internet IT becomes too big to hide in a way that I think works for the movement that you're talking about.

right? Yeah, I mean, getting this information out there, having samsung say this is how you open the phone. I mean, IT also, by the way, helps guide regulators because when when I go to them and say, hey, it's hard to open the ipad that I OK sharky.

But then when when we ve got apple service manual, say, what do they have a poster for the ipad yet, by the way? But to show like, hey, the battery is look in and this is the process. And it's this crazy hard that makes IT much easier for regulators, for academics.

One of the big chAllenges that in regulation and enhances sly product reviews across electronics is who's out there are taking these things apart, like winds. The last time you guys took something apart while you are reviewing IT, and that's a criticism, is he doesn't happen very often and expensive. You have to yet a lot of products. I mean, we spent a over ten thousand dollars on iphone fifteens on launch day just to get enough of them so we could pull them apart and give you guys some kind of analysis of like, hey, if you swap the screens, the self camera stops working. No one won't known that if we hadn't tested IT.

i'm to going to plug here, say I totally did take a part, Steve deck and the rog ally for my reviews of those products. But yes, doesn't have in all the type. no.

And we super appreciate. And then you go more in depth than just bad. Any details on the technosphere, which is really appreciate that we need to see more.

Can you talk about the steam deck actually because I think in the realm of this sort of next phase of more reparable gadget, I think valve, with the steam decades kind of out ahead of a lot of other companies in the way that is thinking about how this stuff should work. Is that true?

absolutely. I flew to vult headquarters two years ago in August, and I asked them, hey, are the parts for this going to be replaced? And like the very first hands on the present head with this thing, this battery.

And here is a small battery. You only get like your two hours battery life. Maybe this is going to wear out.

It's going to go lower and lower battery. You gonna let you replace that, right? And they were like, we have a plan to let you repair this device. We will send you more details when they are ready.

which we have learned to be dubious of over the years.

The rog ali were still waiting to try to how you repair of that one. And then IT turned out that you were their partner. I fix IT was their partner for the steam deck parts and you could buy, I think, literally every part of this yet.

And IT takes a long time to set these programs up. So well were they were showing yearly. We are hammering out the details of logistics and how we get parts out there.

But it's been really important as been a really successful. It's IT really shows that repair takes an ecosystem. IT takes a product that can be repared, which maybe is the chAllenge with some of the fulda les right now.

Is there a little heart to fix? But then they also takes apart and tools in the information you have to have that whole ecosystem come together. Oil wise people, you know what that breaks, they start to do the math and their head and and they decided by a new one.

can can you explain me a little more about how partnership like that comes together? Because I suspect whether it's with you or with other repair manufacturers around the country, like a lot of people who make electronics are going to be out there are trying to figure out how to strike partnerships like this. So when value comes to you and they are like we want to work with you on some steam deck stuff.

what happens? There's a spectrum that the simplest thing is they come to us and say, hey, we want to fix the thing. We say, cool, set a supplier supply chain, introduce the steer suppliers will buy from them, will right through a paramedic, we'll build the store for you.

We just kind to take care of everything, which is what we've been doing historically, like we worth the largest resource for how the example products we have been for twenty years. We don't work with up though. But aside from that, you know, we build discipline and we come with the tools and we build repair kids.

So you get a screen that comes with the tools you need to do that repair. And that's kind of our happy spot. Just let us do everything.

But some companies already have the information or like we work with teenage engineering, we've got some really cool audio products and they actually they wanted to write their repair procedures. So they write their repair guides, they put them on I fix IT, and then they send this the parts. And we're just at that point, we're just an new commerce company for them.

And that's that's perfectly fine, too. So we're pretty flexible work with companies however they want. We're kind of fill in whatever gets they need, but we're perfect capable of of doing everything soup to that.

How do you properly size the repair supply chain pipeline for for users who want to buy part through effects that I mean, I know that you haven't always been able to keep all the parts in start that I would possibly want for a steam deck or or a pixel. I think last time I checked your head like two iphone, many screens in stock. If I wanted to replace one of those, how do you figure that out?

It's hard. We don't know you how many of the gizmos are going to sell, how many you are going to break. It's really chAllenging, right? And so so you do the best you can and then you adapt over time.

And the tiger net, the supply chain is the Better. Um also you planning out so are we're going to stop production of this device and we're going to make the next version a bit, but we have to, at that point, do. All the last time buy you have to buy all the parts you're going to need for the next five or ten years for the device, and you're just kind of guessing at that point. So we do the best we can. And when we get that wrong, our community lets us know .

that's very yes, sean was was think that the steam deck stuff has because has been sort of intermittently hard to get yeah over time.

I mean, we have tools. So you sign up on the email lesson will mail you the moment that that the part comes back again. But yeah, that doesn't esn help when your thing is broken. And I love the part.

So what's your sense of kind of what happens most immediately here? IT feels like long run, we might start to see a change in the way gadgets are made and work like your airpower s might come from a fundamentally different manufacturing process. But that's going to take a while because this stuff always takes a while, maybe more immediately, like the revise of the local repair shop, which seems to be very clearly kind of a goal of this. Like what do you look for a sort of the first metric of success that like this is working? This law is having its intended effect here.

But the first of the most easiest thing is the accompanies to publish all the service permai. So that should happen.

New york law does affect january once at that point to anyway to you should be looking at companies and if they're not posting the service information, there are other compliance, right? And having that just that basic level of insights to how are these things put together then starts to help them, we hope to lay on, on parts of availability and then the the pricing and kind of consumer awareness follows. Like right now, people don't fix televisions, have a TV that breaks, just get a new one.

No reason that these things are not glue together like airports. S they are pretty easy to think if you have a power supply, go in a TV. It's crazy to buy a new one, but we have to be kind of retrain society that way.

Yet Shawn is gonna be like deep in manual, deep dive heaven for like the first six months of twenty twenty four. It's going to be like a hundred million pages of documentation in the house. It's I have .

to ask you about parts parings. We, back when I was, could report on up live an article conflict now report on apple. But back when I did, I receive those two suitcases full of pillon, suitcases full of apple repair tools.

And I stuck that battery in my iphone. And then I told me that my battery was not genuine until I went through this procedure to make a genuine. And I know that companies like I fix that.

They are worried that these manufacturers may decide to require that some part prepared with some other part either digitally requiring some kind of special authentication that might be difficult to get. We're physically where they will only sell you a module that has all these different things on IT. Can you really repair A T, V if they say you need to buy the TV mainboard, which has all the components tonic for the entire T V, and you're basically buying whole new T V. Do we want them to you buy an entire compute board for a phone or can you buy the individual pieces?

Its yes. So the question here's one around control. Can the manufacturer dictate where and when devices are repared? And if you have a chip in the part and a chip in in the main in boards, let's seek the display on the, on the iphone.

For example, there's chip in in the display with a serial number at the factory they marry or they pair the server number in your display, the serial number in your phone. We took two brand new iphone fifteen promex units. We swap the springs between them and you lose a bunch of functionality.

You lose true tone. You lose the front phase camera, which seems like an important feature of a phone. You'll lose that these features and you also start to get a lot, lot of warnings. It's pretty easy to build those kind of locks in. So that's why we're kind of raising the red flag and saying this is a moment and technology ery the pause me devaluated.

What do we want to go down? Do we want to go down the road where parts are not interchangeable, right? And for for the entire history of the electronic industry, so far you have two pcs.

You stop the hard drive between them. You can do that. Now we're saying where you can even swap screens between two phones.

The entire electronic recycling ecosystem. They don't make money off the commodity, don't make money off the golden and silver in these things. They make money because twenty percent of the devices that they get can be fixed and resolved.

And that subsidizes the rest of the recycling. So when you insert this poison pills, where you say, well, no, actually, of two broken funds, you can't combine them and make one that works. That's really in the sabotage, the economics of the electrons, recycling and reverb shen industry.

So we need to do something about that. None of the rich repair laws that have pass so far addressed this. The california law had some language in IT that would have done that, and a compromise get apple to support the legislation that was removed.

So a stay tuned for next year. I think, I think, I think we're gonna need to do this. We cannot stop with a retreat y legislation. We need to keep going and and that's the conversation we're having the all the states about next year's laws.

what is keep going look like? I think it's very easy to see writer repair is kind of a binary thing, either you're allowed to do IT or not. But we represented is a much sort of longer series of steps. Sick, what is the step after this?

Yes, we need to get to a point where repair rs practice regularly on the ground where the T V is Normally is fixed ble. You can get parts, but the people are in the repurchase start to come back. And so we can't really stop working on this.

We moments behind this. We can't stop until we actually see the the solution start having an effect on the material world. Someone very wise when so me, the earth doesn't care about anything that we say that only cares about. When you actually take a shovel and you stick in the ground, you start doing things. So we need to get ready, repair from this discussion, this intellectual cussion, that like practically something, the impacts, how long things last.

Are there key states that support parts pairing and other important missing elements from the current right repair laws where you think you've got the amount of to make that happen there?

Yes, rebuildings were introduced in thirty states this year. Uh, so i'm anticipating and the there is still considering IT, the hope would be to make substantial progress in many of those that it's not just just cal cronic. We need to solve this for e bikes.

We need to solve this for appliances, for power equipment. There's a broad a spectrum of other products that, that need to be covered. So I would expect I mean, like washington is a state where the bill got really closed.

Microsoft actually endure washington right to per bill and then apple killed IT. So I think you're going to see states where they got really close in an oregon. They were the shirt one vote. I think those communities tes that they are going to you're gonna move quickly at the beginning next year, the gate of season, by the way, you know you think about in the tech we have set right after c yes, that's when all the legislators get to work and is like a two, three months kind of friends eve activity where between february, march, bro, you're going to see a law of action.

So you you're like california celebratory period was short.

very short. I mean, I could tell you all, but the coalition is very busy, very engaged there. There's an active coalition in each state.

And you can go, if you want, check out your state, you can go that organ that repair that organ and get involved. There's wonderful. I mean, this really is a grass roots movement where, like I couldn't even tell you where it's going to happen next.

What's going to happen in pensylvania? I don't know. There's S A great community there that might push .

forward at the risk of basically asking you to drinks yourself. Does this feel unstoppable at this point? Like have we have we tipped into this is gona win. It's just a matter of time.

We're making very good Price. I think we've moved beyond that. The sky will fall of this passed stage. There were so long, I mean, apple was one around seto telling legislators here, people can open their iphone, i'll punctured red the battery and settle on fire. And they told legislation in nebraska that if they passed out, a pair would turn to rest into a meca hackers. And and I think those like sky will fall kind of claims of have clearly been proven wrong.

The same fight we're having about the APP store. If you're allowed to do anything, yeah, you will give all of your money to a stranger and also burn your house down. That these are the rules which.

by the way, the upstart has banned apps that report battery status. So apples the only the only one that can tell you how many cycles are on your battery.

interesting. So okay. So we're past that face. Are there are there other sort of obvious road blocks you're seeing that you still have to get past?

So parts pairing is a large one. And then I think you have to look at implementation time frame in the going back to twenty twenty one. Is that far enough back some chAllenges around internet access should you be to fix things if you don't have access to the internet, you if you look at who uses, I fix IT.

We are, per capita, much more heavily used in rural areas than than urban areas, right farther from access to retail locations. And the farther northern canada you go, the more people rely on on I fix IT. And so I think making sure that, that repairs are robust and repeatable and and that these software diagnostics ls are available to everyone is really important.

IT impacts far more products than you would think like you think about like an outboard engine on a boat. Traditionally, you've been able to fix that without software. Now it's all software controlled. You to talk to Fishermen and like guy, I can fix my engine anymore. Five years ago, I could, but I can't fix the one now because I don't have the software. And and that's increasingly the case across everything of the software in the technology is making these products Better in some ways, but they're not following up with access to the the diagnostic and that we need.

Have you seen any of this? I mean, when we're talking about phones, may it's it's very hard in the united states, there's there's apple, their samsung. Are predominant predominated the market share of old phones as most people buy from them. But when IT comes to like outboard motor for your boat, do you see any kind of push back in that ROM where consumers are the people buying those things say we're going to buy lower tech products instead of higher tech products so that we have the ability to repair them on their own. Are there manufacturer who are intentionally developing more reparable lower tech devices for those those rounds?

You can see this in the farm equipment industry. A if if you take a tractor from one thousand ninety five, its value is continuing to go up. It's not going down.

The kind of pretty computer age of farm equipment is in high demand. And and you can see the economics playing out very clearly. Now I think it's interesting that you haven't seen manufacturer take a vange of IT. So I haven't seen the manufacturer like cab to go out there and say, well, we're going to make a lower tech tracor that these you to work on and beat on here at their own game. IT seems like everyone is still in the cult of technology, the cult of the new, which is which is really frustrating because if one of them would break out, I mean, you see the success that framework is having. I think there's a real opportunity for for some of these companies to really differentiate themselves from the the goliath.

I think that's and IT also people root for framework in a really interesting way, like there is this sense that companies like framework are on this morally right side of history. And I hear people in tech who would never buy a framework laptop and don't really care about laptops, who would like, boy, hope that company is succeed because it's like they, their senses, everything is Better. If we prove that that can work.

is proposing a different trajectory than what seems was available.

What is what is the single part of a added that you are like most excited for everybody to make reparable? Like, what if if everybody just opens up one thing is IT screens is that batteries is batteries.

One hundred percent is batteries across everything. A battery is a consummate having a battery gLinda device is like buying a car or tires that are welded on its insanity. I got home people and they like, hey, get the new smoke detector with a ten year battery.

You never have to change. You just throw the smoke detector away. After ten years, the smoke detector is a radioactive iao at the center of this thing.

We don't want to be throwing these away. Like why in the world? We want everything in the world to have this, this chemical pouch inside that that wears out. After three years, it's absolute sanity.

We have to move away from gluten integrated batteries, ies and everything until, I mean, if if we get to a point where is some magical new baty technology the last for fifty years? Okay, cool. We can glue others at that point. But work, we're not there yet. Yeah I like thinking .

Better is as a consumer able and otherwise very long lasting thing is actually, I think, a really useful frame for how we talk about technology.

Let's take your refrigerator that was gone to last for thirty years and make a last for two and see a happy you are. That's that's what IT just strikes me insane and been watching the trend. And by the way, they are undermining reasons like there are U L.

Standards that have to change. It's not completely the manufacturer fault. Where in come this system does accidently been designed.

The rules pushes us in the direction, preparatory Better effects, even if you do make an interchange able battery. Like what standard is there for changeable lithium pucci s right? There isn't one there.

What size i'm like, i'm a good cellphone manufacturer. I'm used the standard battery. Ze what is that? And that's a problem that needs to be addressed in an industry level to then enable manufacturers to envy around and the changing and Operate.

I like IT, right? We should let you go. John kyle, thank you so much. And kyle, you know, congratulations on your genetic Victory and your impending billionaire. P, C, if I think this is a when I .

think for all consumers, everyone has been editing for this for so long. I mean, we are so much to read IT and all of the enthusiastic folks who have written and called their their represents over the years, let's not take off the gas now where we go on the ropes, but we need to keep pushing this until we really solidifying butts all foundation that the next way of the technology is go on.

But IT, awesome. Thank you. Appreciate you doing this. thanks.

right? We give this one more break and then we're going to get to the verge cost hot line. This episode is brought .

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Welcome back. Let's do a question from the verge has hot line as you do every week for this one, Nathan over here. Hi Nathan.

time.

As a reminder, before we get into IT the hot line numbers eight, six, six, verge one one call and ask us other questions. You can also email verge cast to the version t com if you d rather not call. We've gotten really good questions the last several weeks.

So thank you to everyone who's been calling, emAiling this one. We've got a bunch of like changing questions this week. I guess it's like new gadget time.

So everybody has a lots of charging questions. But this one knows my favorite ite. And the reason we have brought you in anything is because this is right up your ali.

Uh, let just play the question first. IT comes from kayo. Hi, this is kyle from no scope canada. I was wondering, sir, have been any updates on the t two wireless charging centered, uh mag safe sort of looking magnet things from a while back.

I guess what about how the new iphone is kind of supporting IT? But I didn't appear on basically to that IT for major like should for now when we seen android with youtube. I want me a hacking and accessories.

And the chargers I ve been listening for is for the show. thanks. okay.

I love this question because IT is so confused and so vague about what t 2 is and when it's coming， which is the exact correct response, as far as I can tell, is going on with two. So neither, just start quickly at the very beginning. Catch me up. What is t 2 and why do we care？

okay. So t two is the secret of chea, which is the wireless charging standard that is in pretty much every phone, almost everything that charges wirelessly right now, except for smart watches, is a regular tea. No magnets, including the iphone. The iphone also magsaysay has a ring of magnets to make sure that the charger and the charging coil alliance with the receiver coil um why are these charging is very finicking. If you're off by a couple millimeters, that takes powers less efficient is you you're not going to get a good luck.

The thing the iphones I was really good at is like you get sort of close and then it's just like sort of snaps in the position that's mag safe. Everything else is.

yes, okay, maxi phones will work with. And in fact, there's a lot of magnetic chi accessories that are not magi certified, but they have got the c charger and they ve got the ring of magnets. They stick the back, my phone and fine OK.

That SHE one doesn't include the magnet ics, generic magsaysay over the counter, mag safe o basically IT is why are the charger with a ring magnets around IT? Apple contributed a bunch to the new standard is run by the wireless power consortium, which is the same group that administers the cheese standard. And basically it's goering, a magnet.

So IT should be intercoms tiger with mag safe to some degree in the sense that apple doesn't have to do anything. As far as I know, they don't want to do anything to make chee to work hardware wise because the magnets, although they're not exactly the same configuration, apparently the work just fine OK. So it's something that's already on apple. It's not officially on the new iphone because it's not certified that this is weird.

right? So like I remember when that when the iphone came out a few weeks ago to came up and yes.

briefly yes.

sort of mentioned in passing. And we tried to figure out like is this the first official two phone? And the answer is, like.

kind of IT probably will be the first official t 2 phone。 Okay, so I said the spect said future t to support and I start to the wireless st. Power consortium and I said, hey, what's up with two to like is the standard complete? Is that certified? We have devices ready to go because we've had g two charges have been announced OK.

And they told me at the time, which was like mid september when the iphones launched, they said they hadn't certified any tube devices yet because they were waiting for the test equipment. I see to be able to certify them, they need to be able to test them. Wasn't set up.

And I pink him again earlier this week and he basically told me, all tight. okay. So I am expecting that there will be two, two charges and probably cheeto enabled on the iphones this month, next month, maybe OK. As for the actual question, which is when will there be android phones with t 2， i don't know. Nobody knows.

The assumption would be that next year would be the answer to that, right? There's no good reason not to have IT everywhere, right? This is the new stand. Everyone has been supporting chief for a well, IT feels like is there an obvious reason we wouldn't see a flood of android phones start to support this over the next year or so?

I would say development pipelines, okay, like I don't know, t two was officially announced to mentioned at the beginning of twenty twenty three. If people have had time to put the magnets into the design and manufacturing and stuff, I would say probably spring as the early as as we see something and IT also, like I agreed, there's no reason not to put IT in there because there's a bunch of magnetic charges out there already.

The generic magnetic two charges you have now, they will charge an android phone actually faster than no charge an iphone. what? Yes, they will.

This is why we get questions about charging because charging doesn't .

make any sense. IT doesn't. It's silly. So if you have an official mag safe certified charger that got a little ship in IT that tells the iphone that is real, and the iphone will charge at fifteen watts, anything else has just a regular to charger, and the iphone will charge at seven point five watts.

And that's an apple thing. Because if you take an android phone and just sort of hold IT to the charger or use one of the third party cases that gives you little ring a magnets in the right spot, I can get ten or fifteen whatever IT Normally supports with wireless charging. IT can support through that.

So you get companies that will be like IT. This is a fifteen what mag safe charger is, a fifteen what charger and it's not safe compatible, but I will certainly not unless it's certified by apple. Od actually won't do that on iphone. It's like fifteen watch and eggs and .

or but not simultaneous.

Ly, no, but you too. Here we come, circling back around to the bike. Advantage of g two is that will offer magnetics wireless charging at fifteen watts on any phone that supports IT without having to pay extra money for the apple certification. Okay, including allegedly.

And the reason this is very exciting, IT seems to me, is that if he too is what IT is promised, IT solves both of the biggest problems of wireless charging all at once, which is the like pinch, I put IT down a millimeter off and so I didn't charge problem, which is the single most annoyed thing about why are charting and the fact that the charging is much lower.

So if i'm getting reliable connection to the charger and fifty and watts, suddenly I personally can go from like mostly not telling people to buy wireless charges for their phones because they're kind of more annoying than their worth. A lot of cases to this actually becomes like a tenable system, right? Yes.

I will say that fifteen wants is still slower than while charging in most cases and both mag safe and any other way that charge there's IT, it'll charge IT the bx rate when the phone is really low and IT all drop IT down as the phone gets closer to a full charge to save the battery a little bit. I don't know what's gone on with the iphone forty, bro, because if my level is at eighty eight percent health after one year.

that's great. But in general.

I don't know what was there, but in general, they will only charge they only hit the peak wireless charging at like if they are like under thirty percent and under fifty .

percent table off got IT okay OK. So yeah, I think my guess would be in this purely connector based done nothing that like maybe next summer is about the time we'll start to see real SHE devices because the things already told me why held fairly true? Yes, I do.

Yeah, the things already told me that has held pretty true is the pipeline from any announcement to devices is eighteen months. So it's like from new center exists to IT starts to be lots of places, including lake from reputable companies whose products you will actually buy that won't catch fire and come from amazon with sketch names is eighteen months. And it's not always that is sometimes a longer, sometimes a little shorter.

But that's a pretty good like rule of thumb, which would mean if if t too was this january, like summer twenty twenty four, is when we might start to see a real run of like devices from big name manufacturer with some of this stuff. And the hope would be that they've been working for this longer than we know and IT could be sooner. But I am not associated hold my breath on that stuff.

Yeah, I would say probably summer as the soon as I would be curious to know who is going to make the first move because if depending on which manufacturer R, S, do you want to be, the company that basically put mag safe in your phones, like eating apple was right about something. That's a really good point. On the other hand, now that is generic, it's not mag safe.

Maybe they are going to do you like guess this was a great idea. We told you you should have given IT to us or something. I don't know. Is that going to a be samsung? It's going to be nothing.

Yeah, it's interesting question. I think mike has to be, if i'm samsung, ever since the note seven, any any thing to do with batteries and charging and craziness. I'm gonna just a little little slow on just gone to take my sweet time on all things batteries in churching.

So like maybe yeah maybe it's nothing, maybe it's google, maybe apple just in january is like it's t too. Now don't worry about IT and that's what we are. Yeah, I think I think it's coming, but it's gonna keep fusing for a while, unfortunately.

I mean, in the first phones are gonna be apple, are gonna be the iphone that already here because they don't have to do anything hardwired SE enough.

Alright, will kyo, I hope that helps. Nathan.

Thank you. Appreciate IT here.

right? That's IT for the verge guys today. Thanks to everybody on the show, and thank you for listening. There's a lot more, as always, for everything we talked about. At the verge dot com, these full review of the smart glasses is coming later this week.

We have a bunch of really good rate or pair coverage, and we will put some links to all that in the showers, but also read version that com. There's tons of news. Netflix is doing weird stuff. Youtube is doing weird stuff. It's just wild times in the techniques world this fall.

If you thoughts, questions, feelings or gadget you want to fix or home improvement ideas for me, you can always email us at verge, cast at the verge out com, keep calling the hotline eight, six, six, verge, one, one. We've gotten so many fun ones the last few weeks. I really appreciate IT.

I think we're going to have to do a full hot line episode is. So keep all your questions. This show is produce by the no and lame. The verge cast is a verge production in part of the box media podcast network. Me, I alex now will be back on friday to talk about the new apple pencil google home page redesign tests, netflix gaming plans and all the rest of this week's news. We'll see you then rocking more.

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