The TikTok ban and the iPhone monopoly
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Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcast of super up regulation. I am a friend, David peers and I and what I would call desperately on a hunt for solar clips classes. It's monday morning.

It's like three and a half four hours until the eclipse and like a super genius planner that I am just didn't go get a clip glasses. I think I sort of thought that sunglasses would work a turns out that is not correct and terrible science, and you should not listen to me about anything to do with the eclipse. So now i'm running around trying desperately al glasses.

And so far it's not happening. Target without staples had to sign on the door that clearly somebody had just like hastily printed basically saying, like, leave us alone. We don't have any clips, classes i'm now going to every sort I can think of, including some that just obviously won't have eclipse glasses, trying to convince someone to sell me these passes.

I have realized I will pay what amount to an alarming amount of money for these buses, but I don't think it's going to happen anyway. We have an awesome show coming up for you today. I was in new york k last week and took the opportunity of all being in the same city to drag nei into the studio and grab alex and just talk about tiktok and apple and all of the stuff that's been happening over the last couple of weeks.

We have talked a lot about the tiktok pan, an apple anti trust. And we've heard a ton from you questions you have for us, thoughts you have about the things that we think, feelings you have about all of us going on. And we figured we just spend an hour talking about IT.

We ve got a bunch of really great emails and a bunch of really great hot line questions. And so that's what this whole show is. IT was really fun.

I really enjoyed IT got deep and kind of emotional at times in a really interesting way, as all of this apple anti trust and tiktok band, specifically stuff tends to do super fund. Really awesome show. All of that is coming up in just a second.

But look, I said I have three and half hours to get some a clip classes. It's probably going to happen, but wish me like anyway, this is the verge cast. We'll be back.

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Looking back, right? So we've gotten a lot of feedback we have asked for and received a lot of feed back on two things that we talked about on the show of the last couple of weeks. So where is going to dive into a bunch of IT here? here? Hey, what's up now in this small studio that i've never been in before? It's very exciting.

There's a frame TV here. I want to point .

out we two things going to talk more .

thing .

about here are the apple entier self, which we talked a lot about, and the tiktok. And we can do apple first, then we're going take a break, then we're going to talk tiktok, and we got a ton of feedback. S, so what I tried to do is find hot line voice smells from people that were, like, roughly representative of the feedback.

So some of them have questions that we should ask specifically. Some of them are just kind of points a lot of people made that we should talk, that we have three for apple and four for tiktok. This is going to take us four hours. Let's go. alright. The first voice when we .

got is from Harrison crew harson. I have a question about the apple D O J case. What i'm trying to understand is why people are going after apple. Specifically, apple has sixty percent matter in the united states. And people like to say that like I messages are lucky in a that Green bubble envy and which is totally is.

But I feel like people are getting upset that apple, like one capital al ism IT, feels like they made a product, that one based off a popularity and that net, because we all use SSID. One time of that IT time feels like trying to force apple to be the open that up, or to open other parts of the I O S. Experience up would be kind of like making IT.

So SONY has to put god of a war, the x Sparks, or that, like, I have to be able to put IT the break pads from a hander cord on to a honda two son or something IT IT feels like we're just trying to, like, create an arment for the sake of argument. I would just genuinely like to know what is IT about this case with apple that makes you a bigger deal and antitrust in something like amazon bad services and amazon store friends or google with gal or search, I guess? Thank you. Had a gress your day by OK.

I want to reframe this question very slightly before we get into IT because there is a part of this premise that I disagree with, which is that we're only going after apple because there is antitank tion against all of these companies. But the reason I pick this one is because I would see the most consistent piece of feedback we ve got was that this is just the D.

L, J picking on apple for being too successful and and that what is this fight, if not just trying to turn apple into android or make IT worse? And why are we matted apple for being so successful? So I figure that is a thing we should address here that this question is also very much about 你。 You you were not into this old question.

What do you think? Yeah, I think a good points. I agree with you, David. If you look at the landscape of an ant transactions, the governments are on the world doing, after all, these companies just all over the place.

So there's that is that including explicit amazon surfaced and google search? Yeah, this is all that stuff is in this in a very real way.

yeah. And then I want to focus on towards winning capitalism. Um I am a capitalist, pretty unrepresented.

So I think I think you should win capitalism. I think you should try really hard. I I think that's a good. I think that works. The problem, you have to have a functional market for other people to try to win.

And so these cases are all premised on once you've won in one place, you shouldn't be able to take that power and prevent anyone from winning in another place. And I think in particular, with the iphone, apple's desire for control or desire for quality or desire for fees you pick and shoes in what water there in the equation, how they waited. Desire for services revenue precluded a bunch of other kinds of businesses from existing in competing with apple.

And that's actually the problem, right? If you get these companies that have a monopoly in one area and maybe they've earned IT, I think my friends are really good friends. I think our cameras are really good. Like all the stuff, I think they've earned that stuff. And then you take that and you say, and now we will make sure that no one else can compete in another area or we will make sure that we have an advantage in some other area that is unrelated to where we want.

And I think that's the part where if you want a functional capitalistic market, you have to have markets, but people have to be able to pick and choose freely in, vote with their dollars, which I believe is more efficient than like voting for politicians in centralized control structures, like I would rather vote with my daughters. And for politicians like that, just A A thing that I believe. And so you just look at the iphone, and I was actually pretty hard to vote with your dollars.

Here is a pretty hard to vote with your time. And if apple doesn't want that to exist, IT just doesn't. And I think that's the heart of these cases, and I think gets lost. When I interviewed Johnson counter on decoder, he made a point of saying there is more interest in antitrust by Young people than there ever hasn't before because people can feel that their options are being limited by handful of big companies across the entire like economy and that's that's the heart of IT.

Yeah, it's used to me that I thinking about this one compared to amazon and google. I actually feel like I can explain that tension very easily with amazon and google because there is sort of one specific thing, right, with google. It's we build to a very successful search engine. IT is not illegal to win. But then what google did is use all the money that IT made from said successful search engine to basically buy all the real estate on the internet so that no one else could have a successful searching.

And at least that is the allegation, right? Whether that will win or not I don't know, but that is at least sort of a straight forward version of the thing you're talking about, the thing that amazon allegedly did where he would crawl the web to find sellers who were selling stuff cheaper off of amazon and then ruthlessly penalty, zed, those people on amazon. Same thing, right? That is, you created a big market and then you use IT to punish everybody who played elsewhere.

I don't know that there is one thing that feels as obvious to me in the apple suit that we've seen so far. Is there one that you can point you that feels kind of because they think this is part of what people are responding to? And alex and cares how you feel that you because this seems like the apple thing is about sort of so many things.

And I think to something that when we start to business, show the wallet, one feels to me like maybe the most straight forward version of this were like apple build to thing and then didn't allow anybody else to build. Sad thing. That is a version of the thing.

I I think it's it's both about protecting markets and and allowing markets to exist, right? Like like part of this cases saying apple has said these markets cannot exist. And the other part of IT is that apple has made the experience for consumers fundamentally worse. And IT has such a large market share that, that worse is now impacting people in a really real and measurable way.

And that's a part, I think about the bus because I think I think new right, right? Like they win in and they said, okay, you can't have these markets like if you want to have cloud gaming, IT cannot exist on this, which means sixty percent of americans cannot have this unless they choose to vote with dollars elsewhere. But all this lock and is keeping them from doing that.

And then the other part of that is, if you want to send a message to your mom with a photo in IT, that photo is now degraded because apple has willingly chosen to degrade its services, keep people walked in. And those two things are like both existences I want so it's like apple, one of capitalism and that made everything worse as like a Victory lap is kind of part of this case and that part of my yeah mean, maybe that be illegal. Maybe that IT shouldn't be a thing that happening.

And that's attention of the case, right? That the tension of the case is like, is that allowed? And I think that's where becomes almost like a philosophical argue IT.

Like should that be allowed? And i'm on the like. I love consumers. I want to help consumers as my job is a consumer technology reporter, I want to make sure that they are protected.

And so I like that we shouldn't make things measurably worse just because we win at capitalism. And a lot of people were not like yet. You win a capitalism.

you get to do what way this is, like a attention of the american economy dating back one hundred years or more. Like the reasons called ani routes, yeah. Like the reasons called the ani trust is because there was a form of business of god trusts.

And we would like knocked them all bound and built. And I trust law I how to recommend reading the curse of bigness by ten mu, which is a little, it's like a booklets. It's it's even long.

It's just like a fun read able history. And I trust, but this is the ideas that you should have competition in our market. And if you don't protect the competition in our market, then you're going to end up with a handful. Big companies are on everything. They will not be as good for you.

And by the way, I think a bunch of big companies in our markets right now would love to be regulated monopoly, but just up and yeah, they would love IT facebook, would love to be irregular ted monopoly and being charged everything to make all money and not have to compete that just I don't know, they feel sick with me, I think with the iphone and particular right? It's like a hard to point one thing, but i'll give you one example. There are ads in the settle screen that's brutal.

That's brutal, right? And it's like that's just the clear self referencing that anyone can do. And it's like this sucks, like fine, okay, put out in the settle screen, but at least let other competitor apps have as much access to the phone.

IT should not be the because I picked an Operating system one time or I preferred one camera. That all of these other choices down the line get made from the best and corporation that wants to extract thirty percent. I just know that feels sick.

Y like my money. Stay away from IT. okay.

What a truly perfect cycle that just was into question number two because there's more way to talk about on that point. But this next question basically asked IT directly uh, it's from Julia.

Hi David, my name Julia and um of course have a question about the deal jabs at apple situation. A lot of the stuff in that complaint is about like apple forcing companies to do things either the apple way or just not at all. And I feel like that is an area where apple, being the bully to these other companies, does result in a lot of benefits.

Preview user, the nightmare era is likely me up the wallet and NFC access. And obviously, opening that up has the intent of creating a bunch of different competitors that have Better features. And then that requires apple to make there are things Better.

And I would love to live in that world. But farmer, realistically, I feel like the world we live in is one where the second the court says apple exclusively can't lock users in, then every other company is just going to say, oh, cool and they're onna. Remove the guard from the apple like wallet and they are going to make their own wallet and they're going to make me use exclusive their wallet to use their thing.

And that's because I also I have my amazon card is in my apple wallet and then my delt tickets and my skyrise card are in my delta exclusive wallet. And how does that not just like result in a worst experience for everybody on the back end? Like how can we force apple to open up? Is their way to for apple to open up? That doesn't just allow all these other companies to be like, oh, apple can't be monopoly.

So I would like to and then lock everybody else out of their new thing. Is that possible or is by fortunately able to open up, we're going to inevitably struggle with interpret ability? thanks. Hope you all the too long I .

get an answer for this one. So I think IT is down to the idea of capitalism, is that competition would happen. The a of capitalism is that apple would say, okay, other people can make their their wallets and they can they can now do this as well.

And then apple has to make sure there IT is the best wallet. And enforced people like netlist was an example of this, right? Who you were example of this.

They they were early movers in these fields and they said, OK, we're going to be the best and everybody else is going to come work with us. And if they don't work with us, then their product is going to be measured ably should your I E plus. And that's what that's what's gona happen.

And and that theoretically is what would happen in this case, too, right? Chase may say, OK we going to to make our world and not use apples anymore and if their wallet happens worse than people might be, like, well, it's not that hard for me to move over the bank of amErica well, as far ago or whatever. I'm just going to move my business over there because I need the convenience of this other product that's much Better.

So having just switched bigs, I take unbelievable offence to that press that switching bix is all need. This is one of the things this question made me think about is like maybe where we're adit is were about to realize locking is more real, more places than anybody has recorded. And actually what we're doing is we're starting done this like incredible hill of trying to get out of the hole that we've dug ourselves into over the years. But that I don't know, do you make up this question?

So so what I have an answer. And with all everybody wants your credit or to be everywhere, there is no incentive for anyone to make you use a different wallet APP. The incentive is for your crit IT card to be everywhere because they want you to use you to use your create card. And you can see this play out on the web already, where every storefront has like fifteen payment service buttons, like you want to use shop paid, you want to use google pay, amazon pay up, like whatever.

Just the .

incentive at this, for that one, is for payment services to make you feel free to spend money. So I think that one will be fine. I think there are other ones where the incentives will be get over here and will lucky in other ways.

What i'm hopeful for is that yet we'll perceive that and you'll be annoying in some ways. But then over time, that annoyance washing produce how much people use some these services are the switching costly, obvious alex product, netflix. I think we've all gone through this now in the streaming example where every dreamer was like we have these exclusives and music services like, we have these exclusives and then people are like, but I don't care like whatever and the like.

Most streaming companies have gone nine. He put their stuff on that. Like, I think the economy should wax and wane in these ways. And I think right now, they can't IT can't because you pick an Operating system, which is weird like that, too many decisions to give away.

okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I buy the premise to some extent that if you give everybody access to everything you said, me will get a thousand ads on your setting screen.

And that actually that's a worst outcome. Then only apple being allowed to show me ads on the sitting screen just from a pure like user experience perspective. And I think then you have to believe that, oh, okay, people will ditch their iphones because there are too many ads on the settle screen.

You know there's a counter example that is like sitting in front of all all the time, which is we use the web on our computers every day.

The model for computing is not only on phones yeah there's a whole other one like you buy any desktop computer and then you put another application environment on IT in terms of a web browser and then you have multiple competing application layers and multiple like all the stuff is just like pure chaos in that market seems to be fine. Like from what I get, like obvious thing to enjoy IT. If that people make things, the brothers company seem to doing fine.

Like there's new innovative broker companies. All the set, like the market changes. People are selling laptops from what understand.

alex? Yeah, yeah. They do that everyday.

You look at this other thing, and you, I know that works fine .

until google comes along in ruins IT for everybody. But then, but then we get another other stuff that shows up and work. I think, I think that's largely right.

I think what I wonder is how many things were about to discover don't have the incentive structure of things like credit cards? Yeah and actually, as you talking about the the network stuff, Alice, I was thinking about all of these companies that have shown up trying to be like the the search service for streaming and netflix sometimes works with them and is usually part of the search stuff. And there is a really funny recently we are bunch people discovered you can search on the apple TV APP and get netflix stuff.

And everybody got really excited like that spent there for a while. But what I won't do is show up in the continue watching stuff and IT won't shop in the recommendations. And like netflix wants to own that experience.

They'll take search because you've ta a be there, but netflix still wants to own that experience and is powerful enough that you can get away with not being part of that. And IT just makes me wonder there are there are more things like that, that are gonna out there. I think the foundational .

premise of this question also really interesting, which is like apple makes people do things the right way, which is apples rap, right? right? We have a user experience, if you want to be part of you to do IT our way.

This is the correct answer in some, but there is a correct answer in like part of that, true, like that apple's history. Like there is a correct design answer. I think that's been corrupted by apple's financial interests.

And then I think, like actually look around, we made a bunch of weird decisions. Like we have to deal with the H. I. C.

You, right? Like that's weird. Like that was not the right answer.

Like I don't know, tiktok is started supporting H. T. R. Videos and is just a mess. IT is just a mess. IT looks like shit and like everything is too bright and then also kind of grainy. Insurance is the same problem with this show is and it's like this is just because apple was like now the videos H D R and IT forced everyone to like deal with IT and is this is increase like these are just choices at apple sort of like making down the line. I think one piece of evidence that ah it's kind of the lumbering monopoly is that the polish on some of that stuff isn't there the way I used to be yeah yeah and it's still coasting .

and IT doesn't matter isn't get away with that and he gets her. We've one more question from Peter.

Didn't Peter and brick in just heard the episode about the apple laws to the U. S. Government and want to say one thing people never point out about super rett is that china has won because the chinese government has banned everything else, and they want everyone to be in one that is easier, collect all the data and and the mess with all the information in one place.

So maybe that's why china, india have one and no one else wants IT. Yeah, just something. Think about thanks.

I so I just I want to add one thing to this before we talk about IT, which is um I think another consistent piece of feedback ack we got when we talked about the anti re stuff was people saying, why would you want super apps? Those are just monopolies of their own and they have just as much, if not more, lock in than many of these other systems. Why are we the verge cast cohoes standing so hard for super apps? right?

So maybe I didn't say this is clearly as I could have because I was one of the each drinking, literally drinking in ico. A in my audio is coming through airports. S, I think the dlj is talking about super apps because that's a sexy idea than web apps. That is my fundamental belief.

That's what I think too.

I I think they can point to be like we could turn facebook into a super APP and then you would just like leave your iphone and buy a cheap and red phone and facebook would take you there and I would bring down Prices of phones in the market. And that's one way fine, but it's actually what apps could do the same thing. right?

I think of my phone in many ways as a vessel for google services, which are also slowly degrading over time. But that was a real problem for apple about five years ago, when people would buy iphones and then loading up with google apps. And the apple realized we need services that can compete with this across the board, right in the services that to be ever.

That's why apple music is on android, like they know that some of these services have to be everywhere. So I don't know, I don't know that I want to perhaps you there. I just my belief is that they they couldn't pick web up.

You can be like apples are killing the web. Like that is some of famously the argument they made about microsoft in the night, right? So I think they had to pick something new in shiny. And honestly, I think because elon keeping talking about turning x into super map, I think they wanted to court that particular political base.

You think that also might just be in the lexicon in a way that like if you say progressive web babbs, everybody's eyes kind of start to place over except for verge casters, which is why we've love .

yeah that's so there's an element of politic like the united government is like doing a thing I think they are communicating as political actors know, this is not like DJ is law enforcement. The copies are like doing stuff and they need people to believe in their power. Is cops okay? Like I not not here saying we need a chinese stuff super.

I like the point is if you had one in in markets where there are one, you see the switching costs between iphones to other phones are very low and people switched between them all the time. And that is true in europe. That is true in china. That is true in a there are other ways to make the switching cost slow. That just happen to be the web and it's only us here in a little little virt hast club that know that didn't .

care about that as much video.

I mean, did to just say I totally agree with me. I on that like I don't think anybody necessarily wants a super APP, but it's a really good example to use in this thing and it's a really good example to show like we could have cheaper phones. This could be a lot cheaper and we don't necessarily need super apps for that. I could be the google sweet IT could be the amazon sweet IT could be another monopoly like tech companies at who can say but but we should have choices and just choices at all and and to have just a whole style of APP forbidden from sixty percent of funds in the united states because apple doesn't feel like IT and is threatened by IT is like bad. Yes, even if those apps themselves maybe aren't great.

I point once again, point to desktop computers where you can just get the entire application model is the web and that's fine, right? And like, do people switch between windows and mac all the time because you can just use google searching in youtube? Um no, they double.

They have they still have preferences and the computers are still expensive, but a lot of them have gotten way cheaper in a way that phones have not. And we have evidence of this, right? Like apple talks about not wanting parents to buy their kids chief android phones because that worries them that if they people can access the service on a good iphone, they won't buy expensive items.

Yeah, I think that right, alex, we're about to get to the portion of our show where you and I get repeatedly accused of being training loving communist uh, would you like would you like to pretty fully explain why you'd like we chat, come to amErica and and it'll make everything Better and solve all of our problems to no, okay, good. Yeah I don't .

think it's well, I don't think we did IT in this country. And I don't think I think super apps are probably I I think to Peters point monopoly themselves, we probably don't need them in this country, but we also should probably be able to have them if we really want them, like the choice should be there. The whole idea of capitalism is we have choices. And it's like, okay, I would like that choice.

Millions of americans routinely choose to use meta products all time.

all the time.

all the time. Like we are just like a little bit away from that thing actually being real. Yeah and it's not like john river keeps pointing out, when you give people the choice of do you want a free service with personalized advertising, they like, yes, and they are. But would what if you didn't have that and you could pay for? I like, no.

yeah, no. That's right. right? But we should get to take talk up. But first we got to take a brief break for.

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I were back. Alex and I are card Carrying members of the chinese communist party of I see your card and me like nei is the loan based on free speech and goodness here on the verdict, but is also occasionally, sometimes monster who believes in the opposite of capitalism and hates everything. It's really been fun times listening to the the feedback to the tiktok and self.

We can so much feedback about the that, including somebody who called us, I think, three times to yellow me specifically in increasingly well spoken ways. It's like they they call they weren't happy with how they did. They got to get and did IT is unlevel.

But only that person, more people should call in yellow, David.

And increasingly polite ways. No, they were not increasingly polite.

increasingly well argued with, yes, yes.

right. But let's get to a few of them, starting with the question I got from Brandon.

Hello, my name is Brandon, and I faced woman. I have thought about your conversation on the verge cast about these have been that to be a complete spirit acy. There is. But I feel like there is a bunch of all curious motives for getting rid of, take out that have nothing to, first, most of congress in the part, or give something different way by taking the problem and door on, take the situation.

Secondly, IT sort of the door, like unfiltered current of its information, that kind of gift clock out to viewers before the party official can legate the chance or be like talking point about IT. I think there's a sort of that of interest can eliminate the the current events view from the landscape on election year. But the national security is sort of like china angle of IT, like a convenient sort of top level reason to use to get rid of the APP. But I feel like it's just sort of this you know, one hand that's washing the other and the other hand is really the true reason why both sides of the I want to give in to the APP uh .

but I check my thoughts. Uh, thanks O K. Two things going on here. One, we got a surprising number of voice mells that start with not to be a conspiracy theory and then dive deep down into, which is just delightful and is perfectly in mind with this entire conversation. But I do think this question of the israel mos war, being sort of the capitalizing event for a lot of this, came up a lot. And we talked about IT a sch in the episode that we did on IT.

But it's it's been reported on a lot and there's been this question still ongoing of like what does the government know and why I haven't they told us clear now a couple of weeks later, I just want to come back to this thing about like, okay, what what do we know about what this is actually about and what's going on and what the U. S. Government believes that is actually doing here.

Okay, I don't want to talk about APEC too much. Like you can you really can find out IT a wild ride of conspiring is there but I will point out that um yesterday is were talking right last week as people hear this, joe biden told that yahoo on the phone, the situation agos us unacceptable in condition further aid for israel on some lasting solution to that situation. So the pressure has worked fair ough.

I think embedded in this question, in much of the feedback that we got, is an assumption that the tiktok algorithm is neutral. And then what's happening on tiktok is a neutral representation of how everyone in amErica feels and people are like the kids are speaking in tiktok is show is like fighting back and it's like maybe maybe that's sure. I also believe the situation goes intentional um and there should be a as fire.

But I don't believe that the tiktok algorithms neutral. There is no evidence that IT is, but there is no evidence that bite dance or the chinese government is not like, you know what? The fastest way to break lasting western piece would be would be to break the united states support of his rate.

Like that is a true thing. That's a thing that you could do in the putting pressure on the alliance in particular, like resets the world order. Can you do that through the mechanism of fucked and take, I don't know, but I think like if to accept that premise that it's because of what happened in gaza and the Young people arguing against the war is what is causing the united s.

Government to say tiktok is a public you have to accept somewhere in there that the algorithm is neutral, that this is a neutral representation. And I think that's a huge assumption that you should not just make lately. I also think my formative experiences, yang person was the Warner rack and I um no listen to me either my friends who had arrested marching and dry protesting that war uh and that straight up like no one like we were loud.

I wish I had a tiktok that I would a lot of video and I hear that frustration. I feel IT very keenly. I feel the same way about this war and all words. Um but I I think the presumption that the algorithm is neutral is one that if if you want to make that claim, I would just encourage you to chAllenge that presumption and think about how much you're relying on IT. But like at least yesterday, at least now, the pressure has worked in some minor way well.

And this is also a trend we see with social media every time, like a social media that is used by Younger people, tends to have this moment where everybody y's like, why is nobody else talking about this? And it's like, well, because you're just on this, particularly you're just on tumblr twenty sixteen, that's why nobody else is talking about IT because you have a left tumblr. You're just on tiktok in twenty twenty four.

That's why nobody else is talking about IT because you have left this APP. And if you go and you look in l elsewhere, if you look at other media, you will see that this stuff is being and I think that's a trend we see a lot in on tiktok, particular because the algoma because of the way IT is really, really good at disciplining information really, really quickly. Um we've seen that accelerate.

We've that be a lot louder and a lot faster than IT. In these other cases, which we have seen, like to be clear, we've en that we saw in live journal, uh back in in two thousand and four with the war in iraq, thousand three, two thousand and four, you see IT again and again and again. And this behavior where Younger people who are starting to really get into media literacy and startling to really think about these things, they go, they get on an APP.

They find other people just like them. And they like, why is nobody else talking about this? Why is this being held for me in these other areas? And the truth is it's not.

It's just being discussed a different way. It's being disgust, maybe with a little less. He did read a record, whatever. But also I do what I do kind of agree with, not about that part, but agree with him certainly about like there are other reasons why the tiktok ban is being pushed in IT is I would certainly is not just national security reasons.

I think there is a massive financial incentive for both the united states and for the many, many companies based in the united states center. Direct competitors to tiktok. And those are the people that like they do, they meet a mark.

Agg bird would be delighted if tiktok got shut down tomorrow. You know, like you on must would be delighted if I got shut down tomorrow because that means more users back on their platforms. So I think like we can ignore the fact that they're certainly other incentives here that are that are encouraging this, but we also have to like deal with the facts as we are given them.

And like when we start to think about what is you know, why is nobody reporting on this stuff? People are reporting on IT. People are looking into this stuff. People are examined IT. But if we don't have proof, we don't have like real quantifiable facts, we are just like pissing in the wind being like being something happened over .

there yeah also know most of congress believes what they are going to accomplishes the sale of technic in that I don't like if you believe you're onna sell IT like then you also have to believe that someone's going to find the big algorithm dial turn IT like towards israel and that implies that dial exists and that is currently point to like IT can be turned and now you're write back at the problem of who controlled the dial.

And so I would just like that. It's that assumption that is like do you believe that the instagram reals algren them is neural? I do not IT mostly shows me babes like IT just fully beliefs that bad is what I want from that.

But I can't type trucks exploding in the instagram like more loudly like that's the thing I actually want in the tiktok alarm is like you definitely trucks exploding. And then here is some of the weird to sketches ever made. You should buy them going to buy so many backing cleaners.

Here's some cut rate anker batteries. We're doing IT this week. That's what's happening. And it's like these algorithms know that the algorithms have preferences and biases, and can be shaped by the people who control them.

The question for this is, who should do that? should? Should exist in our country? Should exist if Roberta and murdoch bot tiktok.

Would you be pleased about that? Why or why not, right? And then the question is, would you be pleased the chinese government .

has the same power? Think I think that's fair and tendentious to the question of is the algorithm neutral is like on what vectors can you move the jobs, right? And it's like that comes back to what to these companies won who is really interesting in its like that's where all of this gets so messy for me, right?

Because it's like I doubt server that IT would be good for tiktok business to move the gaza nob one way or another. I do think IT moves the shop nob to move the business. You that's just obviously true like IT feels true being on tiktok.

But then there's all of those questions next to the fact, like you're talking about alex, that the three of us sitting in the room have completely different experiences of tiktok. So to be to city here and talk about tiktok as a single thing is essentially impossible. And this is where, like I just start running in circles on all of this, right? We're essentially using different apps.

I would get seventy five percent of what the three of us see on tiktok, not overlap. Yeah and what do you do with that? Yeah, it's so weird. But you .

explain, jojo, see what I fused .

to know any this information I like.

I know there is, there is an entity called just an entity.

I know words. That people say that sounds like Lucy.

okay. yeah.

By the way, my belief is that the instagram already only shows my baby because I refused to engage with IT and it's a default is like, well, this .

works. I know you want this like .

we don't know anything about.

you know right? Let's get to an excEllent, which in the name of fairness is very much at me specifically, but we got a lot of these that are very much at me specifically. And as a good journalist, I feel obligated everyone, this person, they set their name in a way that I could identify that were just gonna them. Same Lewis, so this is from same luis.

from and in the later of the bird fast. And taking my class and you to, because they good. And experts, I don't know.

I guess they been brainwashed by six times of something. Start from first principle, right? The most compelling business for banning tiktok.

And to support your way down to the meeting person, farmers, when knew I mentioned that I need to be through as IT was the cases that known ownership. Media film right there. You don't need to go any further.

That right there is justification for the take ocean of that one time ago. We don't need have any debate. We're done, period next. China fans, U. S.

Social media, why would that be? Why would they think they should do that? Maybe because they think just being done to them, it's because they're doing IT to you, right? I mean, it's kind of a tip for sad thing.

But again, you can find that with the other one. And again, I don't think we need to debate any further. Second, you guys you're talking about, well, what are they doing? This is all here, say global black.

I don't know. You have to expect shit related to technology, whatever. How about looking into the differences in content between, you know, the different platforms?

I would have a yes, and I take a big bed, that the types of content on tiktok versus reels, versus youtube shorts is quite different. Take a control subject IT know israeli. There's a dramatic difference in the number of posts and comments, posts that are prevented on this different.

So the two things in here, one, he brings up a bunch of self. We've been talking about a and and I think the question of content differences is very interesting. But I specifically want to talk about this one because a lot of people responded to our talk about the tiktok by saying, well, china does IT to us.

The end problems solved, we should. We can do IT back. And I don't find that argument credible at all.

But I am open to discussion on that. And I am particular, I want you think, because you are the most probe. And of us, I say.

yeah I don't I hear that are even a lot that makes sense in like its way like straight tip for that like but china also uh directly controlled its information economy and IT is an authoritarian government and I don't think we should do that well.

So this is where I latter.

I just want to clear, like I I believe in the first amendment in a very real and meaningful way. What i'm saying is there's a reason in the united states, we don't allow a ton of foreign owned ship of media. There's a reason that historically, we have not allowed concentration of media ownership because we know that's dangerous to like the plurality, that makes a democracy strong and all the stuff.

And so like that, that's its own argument. That is not. They do IT so we can do IT too.

right? Yeah, I think to me, there are sort of two inclusive questions inside of that. One is like, is china does something we can do IT back a good argument? And I I think, no, for the reasons you just said, I don't want to be like.

I think everyone feels good. I think I think the army feels good. I you like runny, like what we wanted we preserve as a plurality of that feels good. I understand why the argument is made, and I understand why I feels good.

right? And I think the IT latters up to an argument that I think a lot of the anti trust conversation also latters up to, which is, what do we think our government's job is to do here? And I think in a lot of ways, there is this belief in amErica that, like the market, regulates itself.

And this is how we talk about the stuff and capitalism and all the self. But then the question of what is the government's role in that is like IT. IT is occurred a number of times that this is a thing we should have been a lot of this year talking about is what the government's job is and should be and what that actually looks like in practice because I think a lot of people, america, feel like what the E.

U. Is doing to tech companies is like way over reaching and heavy handed and ridiculous. But it's like culturally, I think in a lot of places in europe, IT is less out of bounds with how things Normally work. But to me, all of this stuff, sort of circles around this question of lake is the government's job to govern what I look at on my phone.

Dior, no, I do. I be very clear about that. No, like I really don't you want them to be an tiktok? yeah.

Again, I think the year question about what can the government do, can the market regulate itself depends on the swung pretty wild ad over the last forty years towards no regulation, right? And now IT might just slowly be swing back bright like there's one thousand nine hundred eighty round reg and robber bork. We've done that to cut up the site.

There's like a total deregulation in the market. You can see a JoNathan counter mentioned to me same thing he's like one thousand nine hundred eighty. This and that dependent might just be swing back like just a little bit in people I know that's weird and that's fine.

Like that is inside of our market. The thing that i'm saying about tiktok in particular is if you find out they're doing the bad thing, we can't go arrest the chinese government. You can't do IT.

You cannot hold them accountability in specific ways. I mentioned this unlash o and i'll say again, their kids aren't here. The people who run by tense, you know, their kids are there.

They're in china, they are in singapore. So there's just a thing that's different like the are experiences here in this country are valuable to us and our media ownership is just a part of that. Like IT really is a big part of that. Like I said, this is a joke at the last episode.

I think we should also break up nuclear broadcasting and clear chair like massive concentration of media ownership across the country is not good IT only gives you like a singular point of view and puts too many people in charge of what too many people see and feel. There is that really famous video that I think dead spin made ages ago. That was just syn lair.

News anchors all say, all reading the same speech about the fake news. yeah. And that is horrifying. right? That's horrifying in the reason you have media ownership rules is to make sure that doesn't happen.

And so like I landing all of my, like, we should ban tiktok criticism in that idea, right? Which is the people who make the media unit, say, who shape opinion, the united states, who have control over what people see in experience. This came in the game here to there and there should .

be more competition in that. Any thought?

Yeah to realize earlier point, I think think he's right that like we took our eye off the ball for a very long time time in this country, we we stopped paying a contention and we stopped caring to regulate companies. And historically, we did that a lot in some of our biggest and most like viBrant economic movements in this country were when we were heavily regulating companies. And so a lot of this is just like culture shock.

If you haven't done something for forty years and you start doing IT even a little bit, everybody is going to like the hell you doing over. But at the same time, like I see the tiktok after like, well, that feels kind of hip critical of us to me, like what we have to shut down tiktok because IT has this really large control over our our media and and IT has this really important impact on our media when disney has what like eighty percent of american box office and and has this enormous control. And so the only difference between those two is, one is in china and one is bob biker.

That's a huge difference like this here in wrong distances is like, here's a weird lab, but not saying anyone can never be gay.

which is going super wealth around the center.

right? And then the disney got into a political fight in the lost a tax district, and I got ta get IT back. There is an investor fight.

The disney just had to wait. Like the consequences of disney speech in amErica are real, right? And yes, IT is true.

They have mostly succeeded in all of their fights, but they had to fight. Yeah right. They were actual, they were held accountable for their positions.

And I agree with most of their not all of these these positions, I would hate to say, but some of their positions here about being included, like all that stuff, like a meaningful political elements in united states, try to punish disney for that stuff in disney, thought back the largely has won or not one, or come to some set of accommodations with the florida government. Like whatever happened there is different than whatever if we find out tiktok is doing the bad thing. Yeah right. And that's I think that is just a massively important like I don't like disney has employees in united states like if disney is eighty person on the box office.

I'm sorry, I was reading my I was really made a little red book that I received. And here I just like, yeah, no, I think there is a undammed tal difference, right? Like the argument here, the core argument of this tiktok thing is who is allowed to dominate conversations in america.

And I think that argument should happen at all. Who should be allowed to dominate conversations in america? No one we shouldn't have that like disney shouldn't be assured as IT is.

Tiktok certainly shouldn't be able to just have everybody believe a conspiracy theory or know who the what's up brother guy is with, just like a little twist of the algorithm that's and no one should have that kind of monopoly on our culture and on our media. But at the same time, I kind of agree with the fact that, like we probably don't run foreign actors in in the united states controlling stuff, right? Like we don't necessarily want that because we have seen time and time again.

But being in tiktok doesn't solve that. Russia has found many ways to get into our country and and influence us at a mass scale using american tools. Like the tools themselves are the problem.

It's not who owns them because the tools are the thing that is disseminating the information. We saw that in twenty sixteen with how russia manipulated facebook and other social media platforms. And there's if that's just proof like that, that happened there .

is a bunch reporting about how um there is a russian disinformation campaign or on kate middleton and it's like they just keep you i'm realizing .

as we talk that I think I would be more compelled by your argument nei, if I felt like the U. S. Was regulating anything we like a functional government.

If we were preventing the american own services from doing the things were accusing tiktok of, I would be more compelled by the argument that since we can't prevent tiktok from doing IT, the responsible thing to do is kick them out. I think if if you draw that line, that sort of makes sense to me, but that assumes that we are capable of doing that to anybody. And there's really no evidence that were capable of doing that.

And there's one huge prohibition, which is the first minute really, really gets in your way, right? It's like a real problem. That's a good problem, a problem that I I think we should continue to have where .

there will come a time on this show where I make you honest, sly, argue against the first. I'm so excited about this very.

you have to believe. And I think this is why a lot of the people who don't think tiktok should be banned or old, who think this is all crazy. You have to believe that american companies have in some way the best interest of americans at heart or amErica at heart.

And I don't think that's easy to believe. I think if I walked up to most people and was like disney, this is champion of american value. I think what you talked right, if I said that about facebook or apple or google or Fisher, whatever, like most people do not believe that that is the case, right?

I don't know that I believe that that is the case, but that is what I talk about, chAllenging assumptions. That is one assumption at the heart of the idea that big companies, amErica should have all kinds of freedoms in the companies of amErica tion. That is my assumption, is the working assumption of lots of, lots of policy.

Yeah, you are free to disagree with that assumption. Like I I understand the reasons why you might. But that is the heart of IT.

right? We got one more than than we're going to a little piller. And then i'll let you to get out here right back.

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All right, we're back. One more question about the tiktok pen. This one comes from lucas .

I verge test. This is lucas from Virginia about the tiktok ban. I'm pretty much in the same boat as neelie.

Just you know, I think of tiktok is digit crack, but at the same time, I think that most prohibition laws fail. So this probably go that way. All the part have .

a good one did till tiktok is digital crack. That's the headline here. Sure that you I want to pose this as as a question because I think this is kind of where we ended the last time we talked about this.

And I I want to end here too. Is there a version of this that accomplishes anything version, the tiktok ban? Like can you a can you be an tiktok in an actually practically enforceable way? And be would you do anything? Because I think there's there's a real nalasky ting in in a lot of this conversation that's like whatever .

it's it's first of all, just to be I think guys of today, h tiktok is not bank. There is no movement on a bill on the senate winning that bet so far ah there's no movement on a business on the senate to a ban to talk. So whatever right then, there's the other reality, which is the bill would potentially force a sale and there's a lot of people who might want want to buy IT.

You might just end up in that situation. yeah. So there's a lot of things that have to happen first and many of them don't end up in the thing is band. But I think if we do bin IT like, I don't think people just be staring like a blank screen on their phone, just like wistfully thinking about when troy the millia started dancing again in IT like, I think just like move on. Okay.

but let me posit that. So what this does is prevent APP stores from Carrying IT, right? That is essentially what this man looks like.

There are what a couple hundred million people in the united say. You already have tiktok on their phones. I don't think there's any real precedent for apple and google reaching out and proactively deleting apps from their phone.

yes. So that's just a lot of people who have tiktok still already uh IT also VPN exist. People have done that.

You idea like some small country like becoming a honey pot dismission for take look monico you know everyone is just like VP ending through monocle and monaco's tiktok becomes U S. Tiktok.

it's like the I forget which country is but the country that owns the that A I don't mean it's certainly that's A A meaning part of the GDP is this company .

is yeah great but all these things could happen and I agree many look, the chinese great fire all works, but IT is not perfect. In the idea that we would put one up and I would work perfectly is like nonsensical. Like, yes, some people are still used tiktok, but the APP on't be able to get updated and people won't be upload in content to a thing that looks like it's not like they will result in some kind of we're decline over time and fine, but there's just so many steps from here to there. Like, so so many steps from here to there.

Yeah, alex, you and I have been on on the same page about this and curious where i've landed after you know two more weeks of this is, I think most likely outcome by a pretty wide margin. Nothing happens. yeah. Second most likely outcome IT get sold uh, in some way, shape, perform not to Steve minimum, but to somebody a big giant planet size gap down to option number three, which is the tiktok actually get banned in a meaningful way. Do you disagree or disagree?

It's not gonna banned if I will get banned. And and I think even a sale is gonna be super unlikely because is going to buy IT, who is going to have the money and not have a monopoly as soon as they own IT.

right? And also then I think we just come back that conversation of way, way, way, way, way is not OK for the chinese government to manipulate us through tiktok but IT is totally OK for disney or uh, Larry Alice whoever to manipulate us to tiktok. Well, that's not good.

Like I think it's just such a stupid, stupid ban and fort for those reasons I understand like the rational now behind in the legal theory behind in all of that, I get that. But at the same time, I like the hypocras y of IT is so outrageous. And I like, don't be so dumb.

I've decided that the funny as possible outcome is that one branch of the government forces IT to be sold to youtube. And then four minutes later, linkin files, I lost you against youtube for antitrust. That be good. You ve got to keep the government wheel turning. Yeah, just going to keep a lot of .

lawyers employed. I think of what the family father really wanted, self perpetuating government actions to, right? We got one more.

And then let you guys get out here. This has nothing to do, a tiktok or apple. But IT is IT is a perfectly verge caste question. And so I am obliged. This is Michael.

This is Michael from san Francisco. So the loving you guys is coverage on the future of the web. And I how obsessed with the web you are. And I too am obsessed with IT. And i'm trying to find more and more web apps to replace the apps on my phone.

I'm wondering what what apps, not native apps that like, whether they're P, W S, and just what pages like, what are the web acs you guys use day to day? What are some of your favorite web acs? thanks. Goodbye.

OK. I just I want to just we're going to to each these these are the rules, uh, and neither none of us can see the verge because the verge is the best way that exists. You should download this, your home screen.

IT taxis, very good on your home screen. Highly recommend everybody. He's furiously scrolling through their phones right now.

So all the first, the two webs that I used the most, I would say at this moment, R, I use an APP called feed bin as an R S S. reader. That is fantastic on the web.

It's super light and super fast. It's where all of my stuff comes into. I started piping my youtube subscriptions into there so that I get new things from the channels I subtribe ed you without the rest of the youtube interface.

Love IT feed. Been back on, it's amazing. Like five box months cannot recommend IT highly enough. Uh and the other one, there's two way could choose from here, but the other one i'll pick is a to do this APP that I have started using and stopped using and come back to because this is the sickness with which I was now, uh, it's called two T W O S. And IT is like just a perfectly made, very simple list, making APP with reminders and integrate with their calender. And IT is just fast as hell and a lot of the art works offline even in your brother er IT will cannot recommend them enough.

I love a good simple.

I think it's two .

APP dot com .

cool I graph .

is is probably big one .

is a good route replacement and IT IT just slaps IT is fantastic. I don't use any of the social parts of IT. I just use IT to track what i'm reading and anytime somebody says which books should I read, I immediately open that serve, look through IT cause I just adore IT.

And then my other one is probably like a console I use to interact with my rasberry pie that it's just like, amazing I got, it's the pie hole council. And you can just like this, like a web APP version. And I adore that like a lot of smart home stuff has web apps and just like, yeah, this is great and I so I was looking through I like so I guess most of my web apps are like smart home quick acx.

It's perfect. I love IT and that's like that connects all your .

stuff and just stuff and I just does IT and they work yeah and it's great.

That's good. Pie holds good at I was.

I wish, gone this question knowing that I was not going to say the world stock .

com cheating like is very good and think.

and I want to issue one correction last week or two weeks ago, I said notion counter on the map was native. That's let's one APP IT just happens to be very good. And the person who wrote that was treeing how happy he was.

very proud. You, you confuse IT for being a native back. It's good, which means all the people who build bad electronics, shame on you and do Better.

No, what? I yeah yeah. I have a home bridge. Then I use the home bridge web up on my phone all the time, mostly to update the plus.

But that's like a thing that I use all time. I go to that web and it's actually interesting that I don't think of these is webbs. There's just little web servers in my house, so human just runs in my house.

And in my SONY receiver has a little web server n IT to change all the settings. And I spend so much time, just like monkey, with the little settings on the same or receiver anything. You know, this question like that gets the heart of something I was looking at tools two APP dock com and you open IT .

in the vanna like dana A A P P at the top of the screen. It's actually .

Better on the web than any other atom. And what the .

top yeah ah there's gonna come a time when i'm gonna ite forty thousand words about how annoyed IT is when you open up reit or any other site. It's like isn't this Better in the APP? And I like, no, when your website have a good website, yes, it's Better in the APP.

It's yeah, yeah. Anyway, the web is great. We love the web.

Please ask good questions about the web. All right. We gotta get out here, alex. Thank always for this, and I expect we'll have more of this to do in the very near future, please.

That's if for the verge cast today thinks the new line and alex for doing this with me. And thank you, as always, for listening and for sending in all of those hot line questions and emails. We love getting off feedback.

There's lots more on everything we talked about. By the way, at the verge dot com, i'll put the links in the show notes, but also the tiktok pain in the apple stuff is all happening sort of constantly all the time. Even just recently, there is a huge lawsuit about the apple watch that is very much a regulatory question about apple, even separately from the anti just stuff. There's just a lack before we go, two quick housekeeping things. One this coming weekend, April thirteenth on saturday.

I am going to be in chicago at the chicago humanities festival, along with a couple of my colleagues, doing a series of panels, all about A I and creativity, trying to figure out what does A I mean for people who wants to make things, and what does that give them in terms of tools? What does IT take away? How do we, as consumers, understand what this stuff is when some of that is made by humans and some of its made by A I and that line starts to get really blurry.

We're going going to spend a whole saturday afternoon sorting through all of that with some really interesting people. I'm going to put the link in the shower notes will put them in the description. If you want to get tickets, if you're in chicago, you want to come hang out and talk that A I please do.

We would love to have you. It's going to be incredibly fun. Number two, we have been nominated for a web award for a best technology podcast is very important. A that you vote for us because we wanted win this award very badly and be that we beat nei and decoder, it's so, so important. Nei is nominated for decoder as best business podcast and he can totally win.

That sounds great love for any enjoy that I want to beat him for best technology, but I guess so bad, plus he wins anyway, great news all around go to the webb's will put the link in the shower ots, put the link in the description please vote for the verge cast we d love particularly when we win the people's choice to work because IT comes from you all the listeners who say you like the show we want all your feedback and we want all your thoughts but the webb Y Y words really cool looking and I won't really bad. That's enough for now. Please go vote for us.

Come see us in chicago can wait to hang out. As always, if you have thoughts, questions, feelings or more you want to say about, take talk in china, you can always emerge at verge, cast at the verge that come or call the hotline. It's six, six one.

Truly, the hot line is my favorite thing cast. So fun hearing all of the things you have to say, some of which is super mean and doesn't make IT on the show, some of which is really nice and doesn't make IT on the show, some of which is somewhere in between. It's great.

We do how i'm question on the show at least once a week, so please keep him more coming. This shows produce by independent liam James and for the first cases, first production and part of the media works mei alex and will be back on friday to talk about some fun gadgets reviews we got coming this week and everything I was happy in tech. I'll see them rock and all.

Support for this episode de comes from A W S. A W S, generate A A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud. Hey, it's lee.

From decoder with new IP top. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into summer.

The most unique ways companies are spending money today, for instance, what does that mean to start buying and using A I at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buy? And most importantly, what are they doing with IT and of course, podcasts? Yes, the thing you listening to right now, well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the A I space, why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech, hire away cofounded ers? The answer, IT turns out, is a lot more complicated than that seems. You'll hear all that and more this month. I'm decoder with the light hotel presented by strike. You can listen to decoder whatever you get your podcast.