Who built the internet? And who will save it?
01:35:19 Share

Welcome to the verge cast the flagship podcast of social media monitoring strategies. I'm a friend, David piers, and I am standing in my kitchen making cold blue coffee. So really, over the course of the last like decade, i've become kind of a coffee snob.

I don't recommend this lifestyle. First of all, if you're the kind of person who can just like buy the big ten of coffee at the grocery store and then put that in a mr. Coffee maker and press the button and drink what comes out, be that is the correct way to live their life.

It's cheaper, it's easier, it's faster. John, ever change. I, on the other hand, have made a lot of mistakes. And so now i'm the guy who has a scale and a grinder that I can put to fifty different levels.

And I have a chemic that I spend hours carefully dying in the ratios, and it's all just kind of ridiculous. But this is the live i've chosen. somehow.

This summer's project has been cold brew. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make the best ice coffee. I drink ice coffee probably like ten months out of the year, and you can make ice coffee a million different ways.

But IT turns out, after lots of experimental, that the one I like the most is basically you just ground up some coffee, put IT in a giant Mason jar, like this one I have, and then poor water on IT, stir all up, stick IT in the fridge for like twenty four hours, and then it's delicious. It's so simple. This is the easiest way I have found to make coffee in years, and that makes me very happy.

So i'm sure at some point in the very near future beyond you know, James, often youtube, and i'll find some crazy new way to make coffee in IT will throws me off again forever. But for now, i'm actually back to making easy coffee. Just pretty good.

Anyway, we have an awesome show coming up for you today. We are kind of accidentally going to spend the whole episode talking about the past and future of the internet, are going to talk to the Taylor, the rens, who's a reporter of the washington ton post. She's been covering social platforms in the creator world for the long time.

You know, this book called extremely online that is kind of a history of the social internet and has some really interesting stuff in. We're going to get into what she's seen and where this is all headed, superfund conversation. Then we're going to talk to edi Robertson in about the internet archive because the internet arc is this really important thing in the world.

It's where so much of the internet gets to keep existing even after websites change or go away or whatever. And a lot of that is in peril right now. The internet archive is being sued.

It's changing a lot because of the norms of the internet or changing a lot. It's just very complicated. So we're going to get into all of that and what that means for the future of the internet.

All of that is coming up in just a second. But first, I have to just quickly make sure I got the ratios right here. I think it's like, you know a third of the grounds and then a bunch of water and then IT, cause I don't know, I vente really been paying attention. I'll see how this turns out. This is the word cast.

We'll be right back.

Support for the verge cast comes from strike. Strike is a payment and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like uber, B, M, W and door dash. Stripe has help countless startups and establish companies alike, reached their growth goals, make progress on their missions and reach more customers globally.

The platform offers a sweet of specialized features and tools to fast track growth like stripe billing, which makes IT easy to handle subscription bed charges in voices and all reoccurring revenue management needs. You can learn how stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at striped out com. That striped out com to learn more, right? Make progress.

Support for the show comes from service. Now the AI platform for business transformation, you've heard the big hype around A I. And the truth is A I is only as powerful as the platform is built into service.

Now is the platform that puts A I to work for people across your business, removing friction and frustration for your employees, super charging productivity for developers, providing intelligent tools for your service agent to make customers happier, all built into a single form you can use right now. And that's why the world works with service now. Visit service now can splash A I for people to learn more.

Welcome back, alright, coffees in the fridge, even eight overnight oat for tomorrow. Future me is gonna so sad. Let's get to IT.

Oh, actually sorry. One thing before video, we're gona do an episode in the next couple of weeks. That is all meta questions about the verge and the verge cast.

So if there's anything you've ever wondered about what here we use, how we work, the future of the verge, why were also dumb on the podcast sometimes or anything else in your mind? Tell us email verge cast at the verge 点 com or call the hotline at eight， six, six verge one and we'll try to answer your question on the episode. I think it's going to be fun.

I've been wanting to do this for a while, so i'm like cricket to IT. All right, now let's get to the show. The first thing we're going to talk about today is creators, because I just finished this book called extremely online by Taylor, the rents, and I found IT totally fascinating.

Taylor has been covering social networks and the creator economy for years at places like the york times, in the washington post. And with this book, SHE essentially tells the story of what IT means to be an internet personality from beginning to end, from bloggers to take talk stars. It's a huge sweeping thing and it's a really interesting book.

And even having followed some of these stories for, you know, years, IT was fascinating to actually see IT kind of all in a row and to see how much these platforms LED to one another and how quickly everything changes. The book is out in october, by the way, but you can preorder IT now. It's a really good read.

The book left me with lots of questions and feelings about the past and future of social. So I grab me, i'll tell. And we called up Taylor to talk IT all through tailor s walk to the verge guests.

He's so much for having me.

I tell also here I .

shatila for the yeah else, right?

That was I gave you the excitement level that fall in the moment. And I stand by, here's this guy. okay. So there's like a lot to talk about here.

I had an unusually hard time prepping for this because Normally like we talk to an author about a book and there's like bits and pieces that are really interesting to us and then lots of stuff that is like not quite the remit of like the virgin, the virtue ase. You just like rote, a book about the virtues is great, but for some reason you read this entire book and were going to talk about lot of IT. But the thing I want to start with this myth space, i've become obsessed with myspace.

Thanks to this book. Me too. I have this theory. And I want to know, you think, and we can talk about the things, but I have to start here, which is, I feel like there's a parallel universe, not that far away from this universe, where my space, just like one like your book, is like a compendium of stupid decisions that tech companies made.

And myspace was right about everything right now, twenty years ago. And just like beef IT. Am I crazy? No.

you're so right. It's so crazy because I was going back through all the old, my space, like marketing decks and stuff that I was. I talked to a lot of people that you know we're filleted with the company, the market at the company works to the company and the language that they use is literally identical to tiktok.

It's crazy like it's just so funny to like read this, like philosophy and sort of like the way that they are to talk about their users to the way that tiktok is and and sort of is also largely responsible for tiktok growth. I just think my space was so unappreciated and it's it's sort of laughed, I think, by a lot of silicon delhi people is like, oh, hha run my space because IT was janie. The people that started IT were, you know, a cookie and I just had reputation. But I want to live in world where my place succeeded. Didn't see what happened because IT was fascinating.

I kind of agree because yeah were like were like, okay, we we believe in creators like huge win that everybody twenty years later finally figured out they knew music was important. They thought like customization and personalization was cool. Authenticity was cool. It's just like all this stuff that I took everybody else forever to figure out, just a bunch of weirdos at myspace just had from the very beginning, was IT just news corp. That killed them.

When you into this curve, I want to point out that my space did succeed and that they sold themselves to revert murdoch for five hundred million dollars in two thousand five.

And now tim is just like a lifestyle .

hotoke pon instagram. yeah. Like the perfect tech guy, like a lot of be rich. No one wants here from you. Hundred hundred yeah. I mean, I think also, and I talk about this, my book, this sort of like battle between this sort of like philosophy of what social media was for indi odds, and sort of this, I think that my space was too early, like culturally, because you to remember back that I was still so stigmatized to like meet people online, like people were doing IT at someone of a scale. But facebook really like Normalized.

And also, I I mean talk about this in the book too, but I think facebook news feed is what really usher in, like so much of influence circulating. Just buy, like teaching us as users to post for a public audience. And I think that sort of behavior hadn't been established prior to that until, like people were on my space, certain people, right, like creative people and music artists and things like that and and average teenagers. But I think facebook was able to sort crack, Normalizing, I guess, posting on the internet for people.

What's that something they really jumped out of me in this book. Every chapter is like a new company where platform comes in and the one just before IT has trained everyone and what to do. And then the new platform builds on that.

And it's almost like the people on myspace couldn't be trained to use my space the way that facebook was designed to be used. And then now the people on tiktok grew up in a wildly different reference frame, and they're doing all the stuff that myspace thought people would do. IT just took thirty five platforms in between to get to that point. Like there's just a stacking of reference frames where what you need is teenagers who grew up like this to actually do the things that everyone thought what happened .

in two thousand and five yeah because I think you did that those sort of fresh generations of users like he had built on IT and iterate IT. And you know IT progress is when it's just so rare that any of these platforms can force new behaviors like people can use these platforms and really unexpected in creative ways. It's like you need those like fresh crop of people to like log on and then they sort of log on with all of the knowledge that came before them.

Well, so do that. I think this is like my my key question. And then you have lived every facet of this special experience. I worry that people log on the new platforms now kids log on and they don't know that a bunch of blogger had horrible experiences turning the ads on their blogs in the the two thousands. And they don't know that there is an entire industry that creates like agents and marketing people and publicity people for meme generators. And all of the stuff happened and there's an entire infrastructure of this fame and all these experiences they just experienced as though it's always been there and they haven't necessary actually learned anything.

No, I totally agree. I wasn't saying learning as in knowing the history I wrote this book to like try and teach teach them. I just mean like learned user behavior like you mobile editing, like mobile video editing, it's like so many of these are of like editing sweets of editing tools seem very second nature. I think actually the kids that use them and that's that's from that of like generations of social apps and sort of being exposed to an increasingly wider set of creative tools. You know that like I just mean like in that sense, like they have this sort of like inherent knowledge of as we all do, kind of if you been enough time online, it's like first use vine where he just was very simple editing, then you're musically now you all these new face filter doesn't so like but yeah no. I mean, I wrote an internet history book basically because I feel like everyone so much of the history, because we consume these corporate na tips and I wanted to kind of like this me out and be like.

remember and I think one of the things that jumped asked me he was like, and I wonder if you knew this going in. And this is like why you wrote the book like this IT was so more linear than I realized, like that thing you just described.

It's like everybody learned one scale and took a to a new platform and learned a new scale and then took that to a new platform where they learnt a new skill and then took that to a new platform is just like that. That building you're describing happened like in retrospect, IT looks like IT was like super thoughtful and intentional living through IT. IT sure did not feel like that IT felt like pure chaos all the time. And I guess part of that is that for every one of these companies that won, there are a million that lost. But like, did you have a sense coming in that IT was going to kind of write itself through like that, that it's like IT really did we stack all the way from like blogs to tiktok in a surprisingly straight line?

Thank you for saying that day is because the original draft of the book was not a straight. I was very chaotic and I was twice as long and I think I was trying to put too much of that. There is still a little bit of that when I talk about that lives streaming boom and and set of like all like russia videos. The original draft had way, way more of the kind of lake oh remember four square also at night and like did .

you be shopping about color? You're like, let's talk about color.

I did have color the original I had like all these IT might maybe it's not in there anymore but that was all my god what a moment I tried to kind of like basically cut out all the fluff and stick to the same because you're right, IT is lining. Er and I think actually this is like in retrospect, you look back, you like, oh, of course that's how I wet but IT feels counted in the moment and it's unclear in the moment too like who's gonna ccea sometimes. And so I wanted to kind of make this like, sort tell people like, hey, look, this is how would that happen and is actually, you know, hopefully a coherent timeline.

What in the flip side of that was that IT seems like in retrospect, CT, every one of these platform ships came from one of these companies. Just being like monumentally .

stupid about something like youtube.

Not having a mobile APP like a good way to shoot video on mobile is just so I stupid in actually like, what an incredible, obvious thing to do and twitter just like ying.

And then just losing everyone on vine professionally for years was like, it's just it's just insane how you like you look back and it's like any one of these platforms could have been like the big giant winner, which I think is like part of me feels like mark oker berg is like too powerful for that to actually be the case. He would have just like systematically destroyed anyone. But he didn't seem like any of these platforms missed by all that much, which really surprised me in in going .

back to IT yeah the sort of hubris of the silicon valley C E. O. Is is always just laugh hable. And I think a lot of them are well intention to it's just like they can't see IT or they have A A lot of people. And I understand this from talking to like, product people.

Even writing this book is like, you have this notion of how this product will be used, and then you see IT being used in other ways. And you are like, no, I I don't 我的 to be for that。 I want you to be for this thing that I did for is like, but users don't care.

And actually you are missing like this huge opportunity. It's like you wana shake them over over again, at least as I thought when I was writing IT. But then of course, you read the narratives about them and it's like they're flip the story immediately and it's like, I always knew this was gonna take off. It's like, no, you had to be like paul put kicking and screaming into IT. Well.

there's a peace there. It's like really critical, which is it's not just users, it's in particular women and teen women who often use these products in surprising ways. And like the wrong way, that becomes the dominant way. And then everyone pretends they always that was going to happen. This is a theme that isn't you're like every chapter of this book is basically .

that story yeah I know because this is like, I mean, I write in all my regular stories too but I think it's just like, again, you see the dismissive veness. I remember getting really upset when I was the europe times that all these people were kept of like the oratory, calling me a tiktok reporter. I like in every fox is that line in my editor was like, no, obviously, to lean into that because we both know that tiktok is like one going about to be the most powerful platform, right? This is about twenty, twenty.

And these people are going to look so stupid, they are onna just stupid as they were when they were saying that youtube is for cat videos and these silly women that want to a monitor ze and shop their instagram post, oh my god, silly women want to like buy things that other women post on instagram like, I wish I could have put more from reward style and Amber VS box, because the sort of resistance and actually serious fire talks about this a lot in her instagram book, which is great. But like this sort, like resistance to this industry because I was I mean, the quarter industry was built by women, largely Young women and women that shot out of labor market. IT was not invented by mister beast as many in silicon valley liked to org no shade to refuse. But um yeah and IT was really dismissed also because the industries that embraced the crater economy when everyone to call the fast fashion and beauty and those are also just that take seriously and again.

that's that's one of those things that anyone paying attention to the history, like you saying, people don't know the history, which is why you rote this book, is like locking this whole thing in my world, like nobody knows the history and everybody who invents this tries to invent IT from scratch.

And now we have you on musk like trying to redo IT all again with twitter index and making every mistake that everybody has already made at a dozen times over on different platforms. And IT just, just feel like if anyone was like sitting around actually paying attention would be like, okay, we need to embrace beauty and fashion, and we need to we need to lean into shopping and we need to lean into creators. And I like that was obvious. That seems like a decade ago.

Well, David, if there's one place that Young women interested in fashion media, you're going to go with x, we can agree on that. Their Young women are drawn elon mosque like, no, nothing like mosto a flame. That's what i've heard of the flips question.

I sometimes think that maybe fashion beauty is also showed under a rug because that is some of the most commercialized media that exists even in the top levels industry like, yeah, condy asked, vote and went. Like, that is a commercialized space in our industry, in the media, dusty. And that's find like anyone tour is anyone tour. But like, IT is deeply commercial in a way that, yeah, I know hard news, what you are reporting.

Taylor, the very good newspaper as you were to that is not commercialized, right? And if you allow IT instagram to come a series of shopping mls fronted by Young women who are working essentially for free for instagram, yeah, that's in their benefit, right? So behoves them to say this isn't so serious even though might be the biggest part of their business. And that cycle just seems to keep playing out.

absolutely. And I and I think it's I mean, i'm not like defendants sort of like that explore of this whole industry, which is a cool other conversation just really this sort of up enabled work. But now we have this entire half a trillion dollar industry of millions of context tors that have no benefit of stability of nightmare.

But but yeah, no, I mean, I totally agree. And I think also like with the models for fashioned beauty creators and the way that they built their businesses because it's such a commercialized industry, does IT that you can replicate that across every sort of sector at the same time. I A lot of things that early beauty blogger were doing that I got cut out of this. But but I initially have a lot about Ingrid Nelson and her deal with cover grow, just how quickly these beauty creators understood that actually the real money is in products and building products and basically like flipping the notion of, mean, there was this idea and business of like, you know, you build the product and then you market IT and these craters being like, no, you build the audience and then you just developed for the products to market, to the audience but it's that audience for a sort of model of product development I as yeah and .

the other the other trend. The long side of that I think is like everybody getting comfortable talking about how money works on the internet ah and that's like that's another one of the threads and and at one point, I think it's with instagram really you just pull back and like let's talk about this moment that everybody got okay talking about money on social media and part of IT was like all the suffer, the ftc and ads but also IT just seems like I do this like in football thing happened where everybody just sort of looked around and was like, money's awesome.

Let's all get some and now and then it's like I I go on you twitter this morning and it's just a bunch people posting like the monthly run rates for their drop shipping business. And like how is this like the thing that they're talking about a social media on a monday morning? But like IT does feel like that flip where all the sudden went from, like we all talk about money, but this is a real business too.

Like the the money in the business and the culture are all kind of the same thing. Like what do you know? Have you figured out why that happened? Like who did that?

Yeah well, a lot of marketing dollars started pouring into the industry and sort of second half of the times also. I think that a lot of created started to talking about money as to be like, take me seriously. I built a forty eight million dollar salter company, like I am a serious business percent, which is what a lot of these people want to be seen as as like entrepreneurs, and they are entrepreneurs.

But I think the money is not like a way. And you see, even in the news headlines, in the way that the news media talks about people, it's like this, create, built a million dollar business for ever. Like this is why you should listen first, because we live in this hyper capitalist exxon. Ty were, even if you don't respect women and you don't respect Young girls, if they make money, you have to respect them, you know, because that's what we respect above all else.

It's the story of the cardanus ans.

right? Like a hundred person. I mean, that case in point, right, it's like, well, I don't always agree with these. You win in their self fees, but they're drinking money. So I know have them on my business pod or whatever. But but yeah and I also think that's why know when a lot of people are like, oh, you know my kid wants to be a youtube r my kid wants whatever like that because that's the job that they're exposed to and also they have a really I mean Young people today because these content creators are talking so much about money and marketing costs and things like I think Younger people have a interesting that and I just a much a deeper knowledge of like ad rates and what cp ms mean and like, you know, things like kids probably wouldn't have known about earlier.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that moment in time where everybody was posting fake ads on insurance like seem legitimate and that was like you talk about like a weird moment in the history. The internet that was that's .

up there is still a big problem for luxury Browns.

It's still it's so going.

Ah I was actually saying tagged to somebody recently about that with tiktok and the people were making fake chanel is chanel gave out these gifts. They give out these usually gifts and people are started making kind of IT acting as if they have been gifted the influence or gift here whatever it's .

a high school punk rocker. Any life at all wants to die right now. Strain out, just drive the car into the ocean and and never look back.

There's a piece of that right where commercialization equals legitimacy, right? That's what David is saying about. Talking about money makes you legitimate, pretending you of sponsors makes you legitimate. But the beginning of that was that the money was like a weight. Like early bloggers who put ads on our side, got her rest and like, shut down.

Where is that shift? Like that's the one the rely comment chapter of a book about how their own strong duce, all that's very powerful, right, SHE added, adds to her site, her audience, when after her SHE ended up very tragic ally community suicide recently. And the media and the media went after her, and her arc is, is in the beginning of your book.

It's like a very powerful story, that kind of previous everything to come SHE commercializes her massive backlash. SHE says, I have to do, this is my job. And then eventually, the pressure of that job that leads to a tragic outcome.

Why was that early response? Like compared to now where commercial ation pretend to commercialization and legitimacy in the begin was the total opposite. Why did that flip?

Yeah, I think that flipped in the mid insert of the twenty times. And even if you because if you look at the odds women were, I talk about vidua alison in the book too, I think deserves I I mean, there are original dry to the book I had, like pages and pages, like calling out every journalist that wrote just the most disgusting, the saga isc stuff, when he was a hundred percent right. I mean, every interview he does, she's talking about exactly what ends up happening.

Have to explain to the people who july else.

July elson was this woman who I actually knew because I used to shot her posts. I loved her when I was Younger, like in like senior eur college. I think I found her somehow.

He was a SHE, was an early influence, or basically, and he was a multiplatform influencer in sort of two thousand and six to two thousand. Ten ish was sort of like the height of her power. I mean, he was on the covered of wired magazine was a huge.

So the star SHE was SHE had this thing with goga, where he would go into the comments of goggle posts and promote herself, promote her blog. And that was, you know, seen as just the most discussing thing you could do, like, how could you be self promoting your ball? But just all anyone does on internet.

And SHE was vilified by goga, and he was vilified by the media. I mean that what the media did to her and what people interacted to her, and this is a woman who sign one of the first deals with next, next new networks. You know, one of the first part of, like creating a show for youtube, which at the time was sort of very new and revolutionary, SHE had a big audience on tumblr.

SHE would have the shop bull POS. SHE would post what now we know is like self use, but IT was, SHE called them head to toes, and they were these shop of balls refit. SHE would talk about everything.

SHE war was very accessible fashion. SHE would push a the codes and SHE was, yeah, he was destroyed by the mainstream media and by man in tech. You know, he was trying to be sort of like attack commentator and journalist instead of like a influencer.

You know, I got figure in anyway. I just think, yeah, throughout the twenty ten people IT was women that we're pushing these boundaries and women that created this industry. And you know when you saw CEO and solo on valley talking about like the creator economy, they're completely that they're not talking about how they are.

I'm strong. They're not talking visualise and they are talking about David do berk and these men that came onto the scene like a decade later. And that's because many of those women have left. The majority of women from that era have completely quit the internet, not like they just defecate their blog, like they don't use internet more, because I was so vicious.

And then you contrast that with, like jake paul, who you also write about rock, not that many years later, releasing an song that he that is literally just like, buy my march .

over over, literally fell out .

the U. R. To he needs just called .

the sult promoter. Whether women were called fame horse like that, that sort of language was deeply mysterious. Language was used against all these women. Yeah, obviously a very strong feelings as a woman on the internet of outside, like online method. I it's just crazy because you IT makes you want to scream, you read what they're saying and they are like a hundred percent right. And if those women who were able to get the venture capital finding that all these other, it's got, I just know.

let's up about that five minutes. So, j polis, really interesting, right? He was a youtube E R.

Wrote about him a lot. When he was a youtube E R, we wrote about him a lot. He, he was a van guard of one classic youtube.

R IT. Feels like that era of youtube is over, right? For Better or what that era of youtube is done. This feels like if you count on youtube, generally are sort of declining, because everyone else on tiktok or shorts are real or whatever like that, all changing in that class of gigantic tubs, as you mentioned, has alpic ted to man. IT is really expensive to buy ads on our shows.

What if we just made the products and use our shows as ad for the products? That's the real money is IT over. Is that just a feeling? I get watching all these people try to sell prime and festivals and whatever else that era of youtube is over.

because the money is somewhere else. I had a festival yesterday for the first time ever. Rather way, was really exciting, was great, was in preparation. I, I ought to target. There was a little thing that was called cunning.

Did you fix the display? And did you fix .

the display?

My wife thought I was so stupid that I was buying that he was like, that's just a crunch bar for more money. And I was like, no, it's mr. beasts.

And I like, explain this whole thing to were in line at target and woman bonus in line looks at my way. Thing goes, i've been married forty years. It's like this forever.

Sorry ah feet .

were me best friends, but try to tell her love IT.

And I mean, I talk about this in my book of just sort of like how that daily blogging schedule in that prank era of youtube, and that's an era of the access on youtube, I think, LED to mass burn out and depression. And then, of course, the pandemic hit soon after that and tiktok launch.

And I think it's just like IT disrupted so much about that the sort of like glory days of the youtube views culture um that it's really hard to recapture anything youtube es in this really old place now because there are not the number one anymore. I am there are still great. They're the gold center from station, if you're doing you know, ad share and is a stable platform.

But the discovery on IT is so bad. The creative tools on IT, as you mention, there's still that it's crazy me, that they don't have their own video editor even I think that, that like the volume fAllen out and a lot of youtube having an identity crisis now because it's very hard. And I mean, hint, Green made a video about the so while ago that that that was really smart of about sort of how youtube shorts competes with its own product domain, how it's been hard for creators to navigate monodist.

What in that that views culture thing your talking about is one of the sort of structural things that I found really interesting throughout the book is like we have sort of ratcheted up this thing where IT is just assumed among creators that you have to post constantly all the time or else you'll essentially be forgotten, right? And there's like you have a bunch of people with this like essential fear that if I take one day off, the algorithm will ignore me forever and my career is over uh and I can you can see how that would like destroy you emotionally pretty fast.

And part of what is wild to me is that what IT seems like has happened is like we've gotten to the point where a lot of stuff is easier to post, both like technically because tiktok makes IT easy and culturally because there's spend this big push back to just like be authentic, just like prop your phone up and take a video. And it's actually like a lot of work to look really authentic, but at any rate, is like the polish is getting a little easier. But we're still in this place where you have to post all the time, constantly, every minute in order to be anywhere.

And IT feels like they're bought to be a platform like we can do something Better. But then I think a Better not like I don't even actually know what Better looks like. Better is just like netflix, where they give you a lot more money to make less stuff. And I don't know if that works either.

I totally agree. I don't know. I would be interested on the sizes of just like running the media company like I don't know because I feel that pressure even in journalism, it's like you have to keep posting or people.

I got even so hard for me, my editor of last week. I want to files up. He was like, finish the stories .

that you're the possible to get out there. I have got in .

that speech many I macro o for David today was like me, I and I just at fs and just finish the story just to be working on.

But it's like this pressure. I think anybody that to create things on lines and and you want to hold attention online, it's very hard to hold attention on the internet because of the competition. And I don't I don't know that any platform is Better. I mean, obviously, subscription platforms or maybe Better for that, but I don't know. I mean, casey note was saying that he sort of atrophy like describers go down sometimes if you don't post enough on sub stack, apparently and so he just got to keep feeding the bees like us yeah well.

there's a part of IT that I think is just being in service to your audience. So you're making journalism or whatever you need to be there because the audience is waiting. But then there's the flip side of IT, which is major artists go away and they use that to their advantage, right? They disappear, Taylor swift disappears between albums and tours, and then SHE comes back with a vengeance.

Beyond that disappears between albums. And she's barely president when she's on tour. Like that is a very managed persona. And I feel like that has IT permeated yet into online culture.

And you can see that more hollywood style of media like they've master taking IT away and like building demand and and filling the demand with something great or something expensive at least. Online, we no one has figure out how to do this. And I think that is actually crushing.

And I think that makes sometimes make us make worse work. I think the question I will have for retailers, I I suspect the algorithmic platforms make that a thousand times worse, right? Like you have a big platform at a big newspaper, you can take a break and you come back and your bosses at the newspaper like we're going to publish the stories again and promote them.

We have our own website. We can just like put whatever we want on IT and hopeful ly people read IT, but it's it's ours where's I feel like every youtube were in tiktok. I know is like if I stopped for one second, this robot will for dead about me and I will never return. And that pressure seems very different.

It's totally different. And you're so right. And this is what I think is really hard with the whole crature world. It's very hard, I think, that some creators have tried to make sort of like, you know, they try to have a schedule that they can stick to like, okay, my weekly videos dropped every friday and i'm going to take next week off and being transparent with your audience.

But no, I totally agree you it's just that, that sort of culture of building and anticipation has not been brought to internet. And I think that's why you have introduce in all these other people posting a million times, right? It's like it's you have to keep feeding the algorithm.

Is there any reckoning inside of the platform, if you like? A few years ago, burn out for youtube. Vers was a big topic, and youtube itself is like we're going to build your tools. You can take a break and that never appears to have come to anything .

across these platforms. Yeah, no, they did built shorts, which makes me even more. Yeah, no, the platforms are never gonna that because it's not in their interest and they have absolutely no, they don't want users to take time away from the platform.

That is the opposite of a sort third business interests. And so I don't think and I I don't think that the upside of IT would equal out where would be that much of a benefit. I think culturally, we sort of have to change.

I don't agree. There was this moment. 2010。 8 was like big conversation。 And I talked about that in my book, sort of hope, like entered in this cultural conversation. But now it's just gone again. And IT sometimes comes up and now and but I think that we still, you know, I want videos from my favorite content creators, right? But yeah, we haven't entered into that era where is sort of like the audiences are forgiving and the algorithms are forgiving.

But IT seems like the audience thing I think is genuinely like really tRicky and black, potentially unsolvable right where you've like, yeah you train a group of people to care deeply about everything that you do and then you stop giving them that like I see why that's a IT seems like algorithmically like a youtube wanted to change the incentives could, right, like youtube and technically list in the book.

And we ve talked with a lot on a show like youtube gave people reasons to make longer videos. So they made longer videos. And youtube gave people data on what kinds of thumbnails works. So we started using those un els right, like it's all just incentives.

And if youtube were to say, you know, we think there is an overwhelming likelihood if you make two things a week that most severe subscriber is watched instead of fifteen and a week that only a small percentage of the watch, suddenly you might have fewer, Better things on the internet. And like tiktok even, which is like all about discovery, like what we're so good showing you new stuff, that actually the pressure to keep posting stuff can go down because we can keep people occupied. But IT just doesn't seem like anybody is actually interested in figuring out how to solve that automatically at all.

I totally agree. I don't think they will, but I wish that they would intensify that. That's really slow down, right? Like don't up so much content but that sound what they they want you upload as much as possible.

But there's like I always think about the equation ahead of in media, right? Like we make news posts on a twenty minute cycle and we make long features on a two years cycle and we get to pick and shoes and on youtube. And you can be either kind of reporter like, and you can be successful as other kind of reporter on youtube. If you spent two years making one video, you have failed.

yeah.

just flat out have failed. You will not be a successful youtube. You will be poor and die.

Any listening. If you make a video of every twenty minutes, you will be massively rich. And if you can just keep that pace up, you're gonna a, be fine.

You see A, I like flooding into the zone where there's R T these like weird headless channels or faceless channels. I think they call them. I ve just like A I reading podcast transcripts.

We have boots of this podcast is just A I reading transfers of this podcast. And IT is nuts. And you can see why they're doing IT because volume will win at some point that has to eat youtube.

right? yeah. I mean, I think at some point there should be a reckoning where like youtube should be like, okay, we need higher quality content that does happen right, with certain platforms where they like, okay, this is too much spam like I was just thinking of spotify reading actually commons people like how to downrange and the light .

weight cast and staff right now to say.

I have a thirty eight million dollar problem because I have not appropriately monied White noise is like you everyone should just take a hard look at themselves in that meeting room. And like we are talking about, monetizing literally White noise on our platform that is meant to promote art like IT .

is such a good metaphor for like what these f platforms incentives is, which is just like content at all costantina. Anna, I I love White noise, but like ultimately artistic necessarily.

Like how much money do do you really need?

Is the good yeah I I don't know, I don't know but but I do think that like as everyone is becoming a content create and everyone is creating and like you said, with the rise of air words, easier and easy and easy content, I think that they'll have to start prioritising like quality content. And i'll see if our attention, Spencer, long enough to watch you know a longer video or night.

has thinking about all of this strategically and analytically like you're a person who is on all of these platforms. You're just on threats like every fifteen minutes time people subscribed your youtube channel.

You're the most online person on this forecast .

yeah and I like I wonder after like years of reporting on this, but also being like sort of this deep in the weeds of like what these platforms reward. A is IT any fun being on any of these platforms anymore? And b like, do you find yourself just like ruth, defeating the rules of every platform? Like when when threads came out, at first, you very clearly were like, this is my moment.

I'm going to post four hundred thousand times on threads. The alarm mother will promote me because there's not that many people here am I got a billion followers, and I think that actually works super well. But like, do you just have to live this life now? Like, you know, you know too well how the sausage is made and like, this is your life now oh my god.

i'm doomed. I love the internet. I I don't know if you can tell for my book, but i'm very much a tech optimists and I really, really love the internet and technology. And even though of the so kind value people drive me crazy like I, I do have a lot of fun online, and I do have fun every day on the internet, I feel like this is really fun.

But I am kind of analyst about, you know, the content created world and kind of getting followers of things like that because it's like, IT is what IT is, and I know how IT goes, and I know how you know when you want to know. I mean, is why I have the following that I do want to talk talk because I did the same thing and like, okay, what's talks going to reward me is I know this platforms going to be really big. I just want to go to half a million and i'm going to keep posting and till to get half a million and i'm gonna that and whatever, you know, because I want that following and I want an audience for my work.

That thing is like, IT reminds you what everybody did and I you the one who wrote about this with the the john y dep. And reheard trial right there is this moment where IT was IT was basically so much interest. I O channel.

Every major news event now is an opportunity for audience growth. Every that which has always been that way for news companies, but now it's that way for influencers too. And so that's why you see yeah saying with the war in ukraine you had like you know slime channels talking about IT. I was crazy .

but I wonder like do you for literally for you personally you you're like, okay, this is a game to be one and i'm going to play IT like a game to be one yeah but .

then what like is that?

And I I genuinely like this. This might sound like i'm being sort of like banded insulting. I'm not i'm genuinely curious. I think you're very good at this. But I wondered, red, like at some, do you look at the half a million things on tiktok like, okay, and now I can do what I want to do uh, or is IT just like a forever a game to keep winning at?

I think it's so it's always a fun game to play. But the goal is to is to do stories and my my experience, especially covering internet cultures, that audience growth one I I work in media, incredibly unstable industry. My audience is a valuable asset to me in the video landscape, so I want to maintain that and maintain my relevance in the media world.

But also in terms of what I cover, which is internet culture, one, I have to be a heavy user to write about IT in the way that I write about IT because I my whole thing is like writing about things as users and like as somebody to get this. So I have to spend a lot of time. And also, it's good for sourcing.

It's good for it's what I want. This is what I want to do. And so yeah, I gotto keep being on here to do IT, but I think because I cover IT and because i'm so where the downs and I do have a strong sort of like. Mental barrier and I don't i've like gotten Better mentally. It's sort of like dealing with having to be on fifty platforms every day.

Ross, I don't seriously I, I, I, I, I, I meeting I this event last night and they were like, and you haven't got you need to do this and why aren't you live streaming this and I was like, I just, I do what's fun? I usually sometimes I try to make certain numbers. I, I, I, god, I want to get to one hundred k on X, Y, Z.

the website. And it's worth noting that David and I have no new since you were a literally a social media manager. I think it's nashby. We've all known short for very long time. And so for me, I just know you is Taylor a lot of the internet, I assume some portion audience knows you is a perpetual main character like fox news can put your name in a headline to get clicks and they do yeah .

they don't even have .

to name who you are, just tailor the rest.

They don't do touch IT to me. And I think that you're have to do IT, David, once in that rumors. I choose this plan, but they do at you all the time, right? yeah.

What is that experience .

like crazy IT. Seems like that barrier talking about is very important if you want to continue living through that and produce at the rate that you do. But I don't think I could take you to be clear.

No, you you know it's like everything that gets old and you're I go, okay, that's just how IT is. I don't know. I think like I mean, it's also like I feel like whatever that metaphors of like the boiling frog, you know, like I write about people with huge, I write about online attention and the online attention economy.

And so you are often covering people with huge platforms way before tucker calls in or any of these, you know, right in influences had drama with me, like I had jake powers, I had beauty pie. Make a video about me in twenty and seventeen, you know, when he was, like, the biggest future on the planet. My work is always got attention, is just that that never crossed into the main's stream until twenty twenty.

And I think cov shopped everyone online and sort of force everyone take this internet world seriously in a way. And I got hyper politicized. And suddenly I think like meat, like other media people started to notice IT. Like when you have CNN media reporter platforming the leader of one of leaders of comics gate, you know, being like, go, here's what you know this person think of, tell is this, youtube is like what we Normally that stay h like, oh, this is like in the real world now. So I think like you know, it's like to a lot and obviously fox news for many reasons, I think is chosen me as a target and that's because he drives views.

I mean, I think tucker crosson has youtube r energy where like he recognizes like i'm going to make these characters are going to build this online rules and have this cast of characters and someone pointing his billions and some are my heroes and that's just that's the internet. It's very lucrative, but it's very bizarre to lose control of the narrative your life, I have to say, when it's first in twenty, like I would go around and like try and correct people like like what that century of my uncle doesn't run the internet archiver whatever you was saying recently, like White now I don't do anymore. I just kind of it's it's a losing battle. And also like I I don't really care. It's just like a video game.

Also, tucker carlson, I think is exclusively on x now so that .

ladies are dog. Market with their lucrative teen girl audience.

I'm dying because like I wanna see that man compete on youtube. Like we all know the views on export shit. Like let's see him Operate on the platform and see how much that cable audience he can actually bring on internet.

I am sceptical. Onest ly, I think he has. I mean, in some ways he's so good at the internet and like his persona is like very good at like generating outrage. He's flapped hard on eggs.

And yeah.

the numbers are going down. I just don't think he has the juice .

and also he could make the classic youtube produce the views video, which is to say that youtube is demonetized him or matting him that nothing plays more than .

that one hundred person yeah.

So two more things and that we're going to to go. One is about the book and one is about the future. The last one of the book is I wants to know why live streaming didn't quite work like you sort of comes and goes throughout the book.

And there's this there's this moment. We're like you now is going to be a thing and then you now just sort of like you never like you now never dies in the book IT just sort of disappears into the either and then like twitches rising. But like we all kind of know what twitch is like. It's it's doing fine, but it's kind of in its own name. Why didn't life streaming become the thing alongside some of the other stuff?

I think we still haven't cracked life streaming. I think mob, I do. You can remember hype ruses up before H.

Q. I turned into hq. That was my favorite live streaming up on the planet. No apple ever can be. I actually think like the future of live streaming will look something much more like hype was so interactive and so creative and and mobile. First, twitch is really hard as you like.

Like all these, most of these, you know most of those lives dreaming out to built for desk top facebook live just tried to make everyone lives from in facebook. No one the quote that was a weird sort of like no one wanted that content on facebook. And so I don't think that we've had a sort of break out live streaming product, one because the technology wasn't there for most of the twenty.

I mean, I think only recently, we have this sort of like data capacity himself. And also, I don't think there's been a product that truly like I think it's more of a feature than a product and maybe one day will have this product, but I think it'll have to be immersive and interactive and different like something new or get something that sort of like comes after. I don't think it's going to come from twitch.

but you think that could happen? Like one of the debates that we've had a bunch is like, is live streaming waiting on the Better tools and technology? Or is IT just a fact that most people are boring most of the time and that IT turns out that actually what I want is like a nicely edited ten minute video of your life, not your whole actual life.

This is why I don't think things like twitter ever going to be like, I A totally brook you. However, there is, you know how we're all taught to post. Like, for instance, I think we first tax post, right?

Like, oh, you see something crazy. You're going to a tweet about IT right now. It's like, oh my god, I saw something crazy. I'm going to take a video on put on tiktok and that's going to return.

I do think that the average person goes live as a certain part of like as another sort of form of posting, whether you know maybe just for interesting things or whatever. Like I doing that, that will happen. I just don't think I will happen in any other current platforms that we have.

Now i'm fascinated by the media ecosystem around the Taylor shoot eras. Tour IT is wild. right? There is a camera arms race going on there. Team irs have brought back points ot cameras as a trend because of this tour.

And i'm watching all of these Young women say there can N G seven access or the best care which is just like if you're in like that's a wild right. And then the other piece of IT is that all life streaming the concerts, and I Taylor has to know this is happening and she's built the thing to reward that behavior. And that is a feedback loop at a taking place in IT.

The expectation that the concert will be live streamed, that millions of people will do this thing, has created a culture of life streaming unto itself, which is wild and IT. Seems like those kinds of moments are more the future last morning then this sort of like i'm I like I washed a lot of short order cooks make all lets I like have in the morning like that would just shows up my tiktok feet is like a thing that I would like have in the background and that seems like one style. But then this, like massive cultural lifestream opportunity, seems like another style. And both they are like a reasons you are doing is supposed to just, i'm going to make a thing.

I agree. I think the future lies to me, the people in their bedrooms although, I mean, that is a genre of content. But yeah, tiktok life has been so interesting to just like the that platform general.

if you can get your way under the short order of cook, tiktok live IT is just some of the most relaxing shit in the entire world there.

That's actually a good example of like the interactivity stuff you're talking to tell. Like my fair life sums of the ones where the people are a sleep and you can like send them gifts to do weird stuff to them in their room.

mother sleeping and say, is very different, relaxing, short.

It's worse. But IT is much more like the future of lifestream. Yeah.

which is what I yeah I saw pink IT all last night, actually the NPC streamer. But I think that that's the same thing. It's like that interactivity .

totally right at last thing. So the line I are obsessed with activity pub and the federal s and this idea of like open social web being the next thing. And I think we're in this moment of like platform decline in chaos across the board.

Everything feels like it's up in the air for the first time, really long time. You are a person who's on all these platforms. Are you like bullish on, master on and the threads in the feed divers and all this stuff? Like what do you make of all of that coming?

Yes, my colleague willam is is like the expert on all of this. And I always looked to his opinions and he's very bosh on to I love that. I mean, I massed on everyday posting like I but I I know I think it's really interesting. I don't think mass on itself is very user friendly and it's not going to scale IT. But IT yeah the activity but the interOperability stuff is definitely a theme IT just seems like .

IT marries a lot of the stuffer document like even just got away back to my space IT was like this thing where IT was you had some control and some ownership and some freedom.

And then facebook comes along and is like we're going to make IT really simple and were going to centralized and we're going to put in front of everybody think if we do this next phase, right, you can have the best of, like the blogging era and the myspace era and the facebook era, kind of all, in one mushy thing. I assume we will get this wrong in a bunch of a noble ways, but IT feels like work, like maybe headed back towards the right part of this. Like me, I was like to say it's two thousand, three on the internet again. And I think get a lot .

of ways it's really true, new, totally. And I love IT. I mean, I love I I rooting for that future because I want all of those things.

Everybody wants more control. Everybody wants more freedom to post. It's horrible to be locked into these social platforms.

You want to reach a White around of people and you want more sort of flexibility and you know, different platforms. And i'm rooting for IT. I'm rooting for IT. I'm still on masion and definitely not giving up on any of IT. Be interesting to see you kind of like how IT all .

is tumblr still the platform that holds your heart? I can tell like reading this whole book IT was just like like the clearly, the two platforms you love the most are tumblin fine, yes. And we could spend a lot of time on those two platforms. But like if I remember you from way back.

David, you knew me when I was a tumbler girl.

I know this is what i'm saying. You're still a like a heart. You were still a tuber. All right.

I just think it's sure. Yes, I mean, tumbler gave me everything. I started that I was sprinting child temp jobs when I discovered tumbler gave me my audience on tumbler.

That's the reason I am where I am now. Everything I have people that have followed me from tumblr years that I loved vine and I could have written hope about on vine. Somebody needs to do something on vine.

I mean also like everyone will talk because there is no stakes in that, that the company is gone and twitter is gone. So like there was so much stuff I wish I could have included. I wrote literally about sixty thousand words on here I go.

This just released that book. That's just the usual other stat is one analyst x thread. So I just like that's how that's how IT goes down forever is like the server capacity of your sixty thousand .

page .

book on just a .

one the longest thread ever published .

finally takes x down. That would be degrave legacy the leaves.

We can ask question, what do you think happens with that one?

Do you think IT survives? X no, i'm so in at me that f is so fucked. I mean, elan doesn't know what is doing.

I don't know that that means is necessarily like goes out of business because everyone has and less money. But I mean, it's joke. It's he's literally speed running like every mistake that this rogne your .

book I replied him when .

he was thinking about me, calling me a stocker ex girlfriend for posting about twitter on threads. And I was like, you know you and if you want to know more about so on valley in the mistakes they make, social products, please provider. My book didn't respond that.

right. Taylor, thank you so much. This was awesome.

Congrats on the book. I really enjoyed IT. Thank you. Are in me. Please order. IT.

All right. We're going to take .

a break and then we're going na come back and talk about the internet archive and why it's suddenly ly in crisis will be right back.

Traveling to see your fave sports team is cool, but traveling with M X plattner m for the big game is even Better.

right this way.

with access to dedicated card member entrance at select events.

you can skip the line. And with access to the same round.

you can tech the next game on the way home. That's the powerful backing of american express terms apply, learn more at american express dot com flash with amax card member entrance access not limited to M X plant card support for the show come from cavo you're building a business clavo helps you grow IT cavo S A I powered marketing platform puts all your customer data plus email S S and analytics in one place with cvo tend fish fee on fishwife delivers real time personalized experience says that keeps their customers hooked.

They've grown seventy times revenue in just four years with clivia. Now that's scale. Visit K L A B I Y O dot com to learn how brains like fish wife build smarter digital relationships with cavo.

Welcome back. So over the last three or so years, this organization called the internet archive has been caught up in some pretty big deal controversies. They seem important because I think the internet archive is important. And there are a lot organizations out there that are very mad at the international.

And if i'm being totally honest, I don't really understand why IT seems odd to me that publishers in the music industry and others would have a bone to pick with this organization that's just out here cashing web pages so you can find them when they change locally. The virtuous edi Roberton does understand what's going on here and also why is important and where I mi, so I figured I D have her come on and explain. Hi edy, hey, I thought I understood what was going on to the internet archive and what the internet archive was.

And then I started reading about IT and IT. Turns out none of this makes any sense to me. So I want to talk about this both because it's very important and because this seems to hit on kind of like all of the complicated stories of the internet right now.

But let's let's like truly start at the very beginning here. I know the internet archive as the way back machine. It's the place you go and you type in the URL, and you can see old versions of the URL. The internet archive is, I understand that is actually much more than that, like what what is this thing trying to do? What is his job on the internet?

The internet archive IT is both an archive of the internet and an archive on the internet. So yeah, the thing that I think most people spend most of their time engaging with is the way back machine, which is just a archive of wed pages. IT just copies web pages, preserves them.

It's incredibly important. IT also does a lot of traditional preserved, though IT tends to be organized into projects. H one thing that's gotten a lot of attention is that IT does a lot of video game preservation.

So if you wanted play and old like a tari game, more like an apple two game or something from the east, then that's like a thing you can just go and do and they emulate them. And it's really interesting. You can go and find like old copies of body builder magazines from the there's just this like huge grab bag of things on IT OK. But then they also run a few really specific projects of one of the ones we're probably going to talk about a lot as the open library, which is this very large book digitization program and IT works a little bit that I mean, like a library, you can go and you look at books and you can check them out for a very limited periods of time, and you get the scam of the book, and you can view IT and then click turn IT back in.

okay. So this seems like the sort of thing that to to a Normal person who doesn't want to think about this too much. A K, A, you are.

Surely this seems like a univerSally good thing, right? It's preserving things. The internet is a notoriously bad.

Preserving things is good to preserve things. This seems like a good idea. Like I there's a lot of controversy happening right now, and I want to talk about that. But if you rewind five years ago, this is, this is a thing, has been wrong for a long time. Has this been a controversial idea this whole time, that this is a thing that exists and is doing the work, is doing the .

inner neck of, in general, I mean, people IT does a lot of things that are incredibly valuable that I think most people really don't have a huge issue with. I think the way back machine people largely understand, like this is like a load variable part of the internet at this point.

Yeah, like you could argue the internet would be a demonstration ly less good place without the .

way back machine. But things like the open library are actually part of this very long struggle with publishers that goes back decades and decades at this point. That's really that publishers, I want to say increasingly but it's been this way for a long time, just really don't want anyone doing anything with a book that they did not authorize ze explicit and make money on every copy of like that sounds mean but that's also just that with the profit motivation is like that just .

what they're doing yeah the thing that i've learned in in the prep for this is that a lot of publishers have picked big fights with libraries over the years. Which is like again, like you're saying, on the one hand, it's it's a thing that didn't make money from its way people access ebooks.

IT strikes me as the kind of thing that is sort of insane to pick a fight with, like I mad at the library is just a bonkers battle to pick, even if it's a thing that you feel. But this has been happening intimate tly forever. So I guess it's not totally shocking that people would be mad at the internet archive to.

The thing that's really a wrinkle here is that this all happened right around the pandemic. And the way this suit was filed is the open libraries been around for a really long time. It's built around the theory called controlled digital lending, where the idea is there's a physical book somewhere.

And that physical book, once a person like where the internet by IT, they can do what they want with IT. And that includes, in this theory, scanning IT, making IT available in the same like one to one copy ratio that they have as a physical edition. And the idea is kind of like, very metaphorically, you're like pointing a camera, your book, and letting someone else see the book.

sure. What is the physical law on this? If I never see a cricket is pretty settled, right?

Like if I buy a book, I then have absolute rate to do whatever I want. With that, I can sell IT again. I can give IT to you.

I can rip in entertaining pieces and throw them all on the air. Like once I own the book, I can do essentially whatever I want with the book. And that is relatively non controversial in the actual world, right? And like what that means digitally seems to be a very different question.

yeah. So this theory is going to went around, and then the pandemic brings this all to like this whole other level. The internet archive opens up what they call the national emergency library, which is the open library, the sort of thing that takes the theory you're describing.

And then the national emergency library removes the breaks, basically, that they used to have these sort of limits, where you would say, okay, well, if somebody else has check this book out, then someone is metaphorically using this hard copy of the book. You can't love you. This other person can look at IT.

The national emergency library was based on the idea like physical libraries are all closing because of the pandemic. And so we're going to just let whoever, really, as many people, check out books as they want and then publish suit and publisher suit, not only over the emergency library, but over entire concept of control digital ending, which is much bigger than the internet archive. And I think one of the reasons why they did this partly goes back to picking fights over libraries, which is that library, e books have become this incredibly lucrative field, especially over the pandemic, because you, that was the only way you could engage with libraries. And the way that libraries can lend and buy e books is completely different from the way that they use just Normal books like.

oh, how so so the way .

that stereotypically you think about a library working is, oh, they buy a bunch of copies of books and then they lend the books out and they can control that. This is not the way that e books work. E books, basically, the libraries never own the e books.

And the e books are sold like are basically lent for the libraries to lend to patrons with restrictions that over the years have varied and often been pretty restricted. Like you've got a very limited number of times that you can rent them out or that you can lend them out. So they they very quickly, they can be very expensive.

So you get the situation where publishers, i've got just huge amounts more control over what libraries can do with e books, then over physical books. And there's been this explosion since the pandemic of the popularity of the books in libraries. And so then I think this puts added pressure on publishers to say, look, the internet chive is Operating this thing that could really eat into our profits, especially if there are libraries that decide they want to do their own version of this, that what they want to do is sana book and landed out.

So that kind of really what i'm onderstand that I think if I understand quickly, a big part of the internet archives defense has been like, really you're going to pick on the internet archive for this tiny thing with relatively unknown titles like why are you picking this fight?

But then IT seems like what publishers are saying to your point is like, well, if anybody can do this, we're hosed and we're sort of worry you're going to set a press that is going to just let anyone lend anything to anybody. And then libby is going to become the most popular thing on earth. And word.

totally screw this. This is just to be clear, libby is the thing they want. Libby is the thing. And overdrive. This is like these very, very tightly controlled systems of lending, where the libraries get very little say over what you can actually do there.

So this is why libby has become so popular, because they are the one that the publishers will actually work with.

And I want to be clear that i'm not even sure in a world where you can do the thing the internet archive is doing, libby wouldn't exist because if you've actually used the library like the internet archives, library is often pretty rough like you just looking at .

scant PDF yeah like there .

are a bunch of people who are going to just say we don't want to have to go through scanning all the books in our archive. We would really like the added convenience of this thing. The publishers are office offering and is a rate .

they're offering IT. Yeah, totally. So the publisher, sue, this becomes a whole big thing. And the publishers, as far as I can tell, one like extremely I made this argument and just kind of walked away with the verdict about like what the internet, which is doing, is not allowed to known and should be allowed to do IT this is all over was IT was IT as sweeping as IT seems like IT was .

to me the internet archive is appealing and the internet archive argues obviously this this did not turn out the right way. IT was pretty sweeping. IT was very IT was. Condemnatory to the internet archive. And a lot of what IT was based on was the idea that there's a clear market for e books and therefore, the internet chive isn't doing something that is completely transformative and IT is doing something that will take away this profit line for the publishers. That was really just the crux of the argument.

So then almost immediately after, the music industry turned around and picked as well, as I can tell, basically the same fight about an even more like arcade set of things. In this case, what was at seventy eight recordings from, like a hundred years ago, but the music industry turned around and said, well, were being infringed upon the same way, right?

yeah. Well, in some ways the music lawson suit is a little bit less complicated because the system here is yet there's this program called the great seventy eight, which is the digitize recordings that are from like the late nineteen th century to the a roughly one thousand nine hundred fifties. And they just make them available.

And they're very scratchy there, like even less in many ways of a clear substitute. But the argument here is just they're making this thing available. They shouldn't make this thing available.

This is pi racy is bad. They're arguing specifically that there is something called the music modernization act that sort of changed the way that sound recordings were covered under copyright. And so a lot of the cases maybe going to hinge on part of that. But yeah, in fundamentally like philosophically, IT is still the inner and archive is offering this archival service that is much rougher than the commercial options that you can get but is in some way providing a substitute for a commercial thing that could be a profit line.

So this is why this whole thing is so fascinating to me because I think there's a version of the description of what's going on here that basically seems like a slam dunk. Obviously, the internet archive should not be allowed to do this. That basically it's like napster, bt says nicer things about itself that it's like it's just it's a piracy engine with like a higher purpose or whatever.

And I can see where the publishers and the music industry is coming from on this. There's another side of this where like the alternative, I think, in a very real way for a lot of these seventy eight recordings is just that they would die. And it's not like anyone else out there is making a lot of effort to preserve them. And so maybe these things still need to exist and I don't know, I end up caught in this totally intractable thing about like the internet argue is both like very much the good guy and very much the bad guy kind of all of the same time yeah.

I was reading post on tumbler of all places where the they said something like piracy has always been the nexus of our preservation. Uh, IT was referring to like people who went to plays in six experian errors and were transcribed the dialogue so they can the play. But yeah, I think the very jumper.

but I love IT.

The part of the problem for me is that a bunch of the copyright debate plays out like there is the sort of natural right to own a thing you make that the way in which the internet archive seems wrong is if you look at this and you look at like a book you've written, like land, and well, obviously someone shouldn't be able to steal your land. So you have this book.

And I think that this is in a lot of ways of really unproductive way to look at things, though, when we were doing our best tech books, one of the books that we had on the top ten was common as air, uh, a book that sort of arguing that the way to look at copyright is that it's a way to baLance the like promoting people's like desire to make creative things and letting them profit off those creative things with the fact that all culture is this thing that people build on and that if you treat these things that people make creatively just like land, then you're going to in inevitably lose out on just huge amounts of culture. You're going to just, you are going to, first of all, lose the ability to comment on IT. You're going to lose the ability to make things based on things other people made. And then just yet, very, very practically, you're going to lose just all of the culture that no one thinks is valuable enough monetarily to preserve.

I mean, I think the natural are the counter argument to the the first part of that is just that that's all true. But if you don't incentivize people to make things they won't write, that you should be rewarded for your creative work. And I have I have lots of feelings about the argument. I think like one thing the internet has proven is that you actually don't really have to compensate people and they will just go do and make a lot of really cool and creative things. But I also like in paid to make things on the internet all day.

So I don't know I get why that's complicated, but I think the question of when does something fall into the categories of like this thing needs to be archive, right? Like nobody's matter, the library of congress for having an archive of all of our tweet, right? I don't know maybe who you are.

I'm not everyone may well be very angry that someone is profiting of being able .

to see tweet would not be shocked. But I think that that is something that is less controversial. But the idea of them what the internet life is doing is saying not only really taking this were building some kind of U I around IT through which you can access IT.

Is that where you trip over the line of like weren't this is no longer preservation, this is something else. But then what is the point of preservation if you're not going to give people access to IT? Like this is the part where I I just kind of don't net out at knowing what the right answer is supposed to be here?

Well, yeah, I have been to the library of congress to check a thing out once. It's really hard. IT requires being in washington dc. And jumping through some pretty serious hoops a very difficult research option. Um and I think that the idea that it's okay if there's one copy of a thing that exists somewhere like that's not hugely satisfying.

I mean, I think that the answer that people have hit on for a really long time is very pregnant in the record case, which is that almost everyone who made all that music, they are all dead. They cannot ever be incentivize to create a thing again. Yeah.

no idea. fair.

There is a clear incentive like to provide for your family and there is a clear incentive IT would be really great if your children and your grandchildren could be supported by this thing you made. But I think that's also there's eventually a balancing act and I think i'd become much less sympathetic to the idea that you are really meaningful ly incentivizing creating things when the people who are protecting IT are like the estate of Frank sinatra.

Yeah, that's fair well, and not for nothing. It's like go between it's the labels, right like often the people picking this fight are the publishing houses and the record labels who stand to gain from continuing to be the orbit of access to all of this stuff rather than building new systems of distribution and creativity.

Yeah and one, publishers and authors, a lot of authors were really split on the inner at archive. There were people who were supporting the suit that they also believe, like there are these very contemporary novels that are getting scanned and that people are clearly reading them instead of buying my books, is already really hard to get people to buy my books at. And they're there a lot of authors who disagree and a lot of authors who really do want to see their work more widely disseminated.

A yeah IT always means we think of the one of the tips I got as a Young reporter and now give a lot of reporters, is that any time you come across like an academic paper that in some journal that's really expensive that you can't buy, just email the author, and they will always be so, so, so thrilled to send IT to you for free. Because what what they want is, is people to read that. They want their stuff to be out in the world.

They want us to be access. And the idea that is behind this gig, all that somebody else profits from, actually infuriates them. It's just how the system works.

And I will say I have tried this many times over the years just emAiling and me like his some really charge charge me like five thousand knowledge to read this. We just send IT to me and they're always so excited to do so every time. That makes me so happy.

The open library is also kind of great for the the large swath of books that have not really been digitized and are not really available as e books and are also mostly out of print, which means anything I do is going to be be buying a used copy of amazon and thanks to the for sale doctor, no one involved in publishing that is going to .

see scent yeah that's that's real. Um so the kind of biggest picture end of all of this is, I think what you're talking about with these questions about kind of who makes money from digital goods is like this is the recording we're having with the internet is a hole right now, right? Especially as we talk about OpenAI and A I training data in this question of lake, I have a web page, and the content of that web pages is valuable in like newly measure ways.

And I would I would think that if I am the net archive ve at this moment, the idea of all of these pages that I have been archiving and and sort of lovingly caring for, and chronically over the years, are going to be walled off by the companies that want to make money from the content of them, certainly search to become like this. X central threats to the whole idea of preserving the internet over time. Are we headed towards that in my catastrophes? Like what companies are doing to OpenAIs we b ca ller? Or is this like a real possibility of what we're going?

I have an email draft open right now. That is just me asking the internet chive. Hey, is IT gonna be a problem that places are starting to buy block crawl?

Yes, yes. So yeah, I don't actually .

know the answer IT.

but I see that sure seems like IT could be right because I think like we've been talking about robots start tx t the file that lives on tons of websites of Better basically like IT govern sort of which which callers can and can access which parts of the site. And this is the kind of thing that like if you run a relatively unsophisticated web Operation you've just never thought about, you ve just like anybody he wants to craw my website, come craw my website. And now it's like the folks who run the web in ways big and small. Are onna start to be much more thoughts about who they let in and out because there's real stuff to be gamed and loss from who you let in and out? And yeah, I just I wonder now if the internet ari is gonna to go like hat and hand to every website and the internet be like, please allow us to preserve your website and it's gonna come a really the conversation.

This is, I think, another piece of the puzzle that I really, really struggle with, which is that I think the impulse that I really subscribe to and feel to enable free access to a lot of things turned out to then have been taken advantage of by people who have made a huge amount of money off IT. Like one of the foundational cases that is says you can scan books is the google lawsuit, right? The google books suit and google in a lot of ways.

It's really great that that case happened. It's really great that we said you can stand books so that you can analyze them and create these really interesting other like cataloging systems for them. But then at the same time, I think there are a lot of people who feel like, okay, we went through all of this trouble to make sure that places like the inserted archive, places whose deal is that they want to open up access to things for free, that they want to do this largely just on a nonprofit basis, they want this purely for, I mean, publishers will say that internet ark is not alternative that is like its own candidate. Ms, for reasons that I think we can all agree or not usually driven for them. Yeah and then this just the upshot of this is that facebook and google and OpenAI all got rich of IT.

yeah. No, I told agree. And I think that question of in the internet chives motives are onna start to get really interesting because I think IT seems less likely to me that everyone is going to sort of show up and immediately turn on the internet.

Arc is a thing. I think most people, maybe not most people, I think many people would see the archive as a net good despite some issues that IT has. I certainly see IT that way.

But I think the issue is that not how the law works.

Well, sure.

I think the issue is that someone's going to go to court and say, well, the problem is that these companies made money off this thing. And clearly, therefore, anyone who is using these things in this particular way is depriving these people of money. And then that gets applied to the internet archive.

And there one thing that has happened is like there was a supreme court case that differentiates pretty strongly between profit rivet like profit and non profit fair youth works. And that very heavily favoured the idea that if you release something, like if you make something for profit, IT is less deserving a fair use protections. So that could factor in but yeah, you're right. I think this is all really weird and complicated.

So IT seems like that maybe maybe I had a backwards that actually this this kind of broader shift on the internet is is a problem but its maybe I for the internet archive that one of these extremely huge lawsuits, I think I was looking at the number and I was like that the estimated payout for the book settlement was like one hundred million dollars, which half of the internet chivey budget, which is a huge number, and that the record industry, if IT completely one, was looking for something like four hundred million dollars, which would, I assume, essentially end the internet archive as an ongoing concern. So maybe that's the bigger risk is that eventually IT gets caught up in this bigger question with these bigger companies. And that becomes like the real x central threat, not this sort of c change in the norms of the internet.

I am yes, i'm very worried that at some point someone's going to see the interactive in a way that is explicit indication. Publishers IT seems like so far they've largely avoided that worse case scenario by just striking this at least temporary deal while the in on arch appeals that just says, okay, gonna, lock down the open library I think because publishers realized how incredible ugly they would look if they said, not only are we we're going to shut down this program, we're going to like bankrupt this entire load bearing element .

of the internet. It's a bad look for super. okay. So the appeal, we think, is probably coming pretty soon in the book's case, right? This is all kind of happening in real time here.

I'm not sure exactly when IT is. They have been saying just yeah, we're appealing soon, but I don't think there's been an actual case to take yet, okay.

And the record industry thing is still in pretty early stages, right? So there's there's more to come, but we don't know exactly how that's gonna shake out yet.

Yeah, IT was filed in mid d August. And so I think the first meeting at this point is something like october. And so I don't know that we're going to know anything about IT immediately.

Do you even early read on the music case is IT likely to go the same way the publishers case IT because IT IT ort of deals to similar things?

I've got necessarily sure, because I think that copyright and fair use is really complicated, like the thing with fair use is that it's all case by case. But I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if this goes badly for them. I think the courts often be very deferential to copyright holders. Yeah are are you .

as sort of broadly worried about the ongoing existence of this thing as I am like I i've really come around to thinking to your point that like IT is a load bearing part of the internet. Internet needs something like this. And maybe there are other versions of IT out there that I just don't know about. Like maybe somebody at A W S is just like loving the cryonics, the internet for all of us in everything that we find. But this seems like we should be rooting for the internet arch to continue to exist, right?

I think that the wave back machine at this point is a vital journalistic resource and a vital historical resource. And every time I see something like seen at just deleting huge parts of what amounts to one of the only repos tories of early internet ourn's ism and saying, well, I took cakes is on the way back machine. I just look at that with just the most terrified largest yeah agree.

And this will not be the last time things like that happen. And I mean, I was really that said, like the average web page only exists in its sort of initial form for like ninety days, like I think we underrate the speed with which the internet changes not just grows, but changes. And I think the more i've learned about the internet ark, the more i've come to realize like that function alone, to understand how things move over time is really important.

And it's really one of the reasons why these cases are so important is because our culture is moving to things where there is no hard copy, that this just is the record of human culture for the last couple decades. This is where people who would have been publishing scenes or small print books or writing letters to each other. This is where a lot of that stuff is going. And if we lose that, that's a huge gap. That's just like a cultural blackout.

Yeah, I agree. Well, add, thank you. I feel much Better. I know things now. This all didn't make sense to me.

I would you and now I feel like i'm getting there. So thank you. I appreciate.

yeah. Now I think this is going to be a really interesting cases .

to watch for sure, right? We got to take a break and then we're going to come back and do the hot line and thinks.

Some tag presents the ins and outs of caring for your home out programs, inc. Putting IT off, kicking the can down .

the road in plans .

and guides that make IT easy to get home projects done out carpet in the bathroom like why? Knowing what to do, when to do IT and who to hire, start caring for your home with confidence. Download thon tag today.

This episode is brought to you by google german I with the german I APP. You can talk alive and have a real time conversation with an A I assistant. It's great for all kinds of things, like if you want to practice for the upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, the script was actually read by geri. Download the gami APP for I O S and android today must be eighteen plus to use geri live.

Right, we're back. Let's get to the verge cast hot line. As reminder, the hot line number is eight, six, six verge one one call and ask us all of your biggest, weirdest monkeys tech questions.

You can also email us verge cast of the verge outcome if you don't want to call. But if you can call, call, I think it's really fun when people call. We're actually going to play two messages that we got like within twenty four hours of each other that I just thought were a very funny combination. This is hearing but let's be the first one time and kate.

I have worked in video production and video production for um like almost a decade now. So one of the things that I deal with a lot is file transfer um and moving big amounts of you just like gabby tes and gabs video footage from one place to another.

And my question is since I tried a lot of systems and then suck, is why does google drive suck specifically? I know that the files that we're generating are becoming larger than we can probably move them at a quick speed, but google drive has like issues that I don't notice with other things like share point and one to drive like when you try and download a large amount files. Els like IT spend so much time sipping them together that IT doesn't actually like IT would be faster free to just download the one by one.

And I tried IT. And IT is so like, what is google doing wrong? Because google is google right there. Like, god, so they should be Better at this by now. I guess my question, I was google drive self and what do you guys think is the best opportunity if i'm in one place and I need to move huge to go about the files to another pretty fast on the show? okay.

This is an extremely good question. And I love IT very much. And I love IT especially because here is the other voice.

Now we got in the same twenty four hour period. Is that one? Hey, David and the rest of the verge casters.

Or maybe I should call you at the verge, cain. Ets, this is jack could under CEO and co of a small farmers studio company based here and hills burg, california. And the path list resistance for us has been the middle of eleven microsoft ty five platform.

And one of the biggest issues is there one drive sink tool, which is the equivalent of what dropout has, is horrendously bad, horrendously slow, IT is insane, that kind of trouble that causes, I think, the entire world. And we know that dropbox can do this instantly and really great. And so we know that there isn't a technological problem.

It's just their choice on their part. I am trying to out the campaign of the world's greatest minds and influences of which you guys are included, to pressure microsoft to fix this, make this work really, really, really well, so that IT does cause problems that actually causes joy, or Sparks joy, the way we should put in these days. You guys know the right people.

You have a big mega phone voice. Let's do this. Okay, two thought on this one, very casts, absolutely not thought or two, I can say, with great confidence of the dropbox is not Better. I have used drop bocks many times. Drop x is not Better, and version page is here with his hand race, which I assume means he has a lots of feelings higher.

Hello, thanks for having me. I can wait to talk about cloud storage.

Every boy's favorite subject.

I spent too much money on cloud storage and physical storage. I'd just been two thousand dollars on the sand.

This is why you're here. Here are supervising video producer.

You move files all the time.

It's all I do. I want to know both your process in general, like if you have a giant thing to move from place to place, how you do IT, and then be why most of these solutions are so terrible and if there is a Better way. So start with your workflow. Like get is nerdy as you possible can you should think it's enormous. What do you do?

yeah. So we are a little bit lucky as to say that we don't use you google drive and drop box and everything because we have a portal into our network storage into our nas or san actually, which is located in new york. But we we have a portal that we use on the browser that we can connect to.

And IT works pretty well as to say that works as well as, you know, IT really depends on your connection and everything I said. But you know, like if you put a computer to sleeping in, turning back on, IT will continue doing its thing like that itself. It's like amazing isn't .

a while that that's like a twenty five year old solution to this problem and we have not invented anything Better .

yeah like it's still not perfect. Most times that will continue transfer. And most times if I start uploading the same folder, IT will know, oh, usually have you know twelve thousand there.

I will skip and i'll continue just upload whatever I need to finish up loading. So in that regard, IT IT works pretty well. Is IT faster? Anything like that? No, but it's more stable.

And this kind of all you need. The frustration would like google drive is that if you select two or more files, it'll start zipping the the thing and that zipped crisis usually get to like seventy five percent. And then you're trying to see that like circular progress bar to see if it's moving. And more often than not, you're like, okay, I think it's probably stuck. So someone mentioned download individual files.

That is a solution that is a terribly painful solution that also requires you to just like no, which fact that IT IT just takes a while, all of these platforms drop x google drive, guessing one drive, having news one drive, be honest, they do have a dust up client that you can download onto your machine. And I know some people don't love in IT takes a little bit more just like file management and organizational skills, but IT works so much Better because you can again, let the thing upload and not have to agree about IT. There's usually like an icon next to that tells you if it's download onto you are local drive or if it's in the cloud when the update is finished, that works. I think I cloud can do Better in that regard actually. But that's I think for .

like data day sort of ongoing use that works prety well. Like I I most use google drive and I have the same thing. I have the discus up. And what I did was just set up a couple of like watched folders so that if I put anything into those holders that automatically upload school drive and that works, it's not fast. It's also there's also no sort of of this way that I have discovered to say like upload this first, it's kind of a jackey system. But in terms of lake having a thing that just kind of happens in the background and makes all your stuff available everywhere, I reed, that is a substantially Better solution. Drag and dropping everything into the google drive .

with that yeah I mean I mean, files are also getting larger. I'm like surprised that they like they're not Better, just like cloud manager in her faces, like not even just google driving drop box and everything else. But like like go pro has cloud subscription and a cloud like storage for all your go pro footage. And it's like painfully batted like file management or knowing like what is being uploaded and things like that. So there's like a lot of work on the software that needs to be done to like make all that Better.

Before I lose this train of thought, did you say eyes cloud is Better? That might be the first time i've ever heard anyone say I cloud is Better than anything. Is I cloud an answer here?

Oh, no. I code should be Better.

I should be Better. Yes.

there's like a lot of times when i'm like not entirely sure like what's what's happening and I clode is just like this magical thing that happens in the background and the icons are like sometimes work and right clicking and download now sometimes work. It's a whole ness of like I do not like have you been to ecolab com?

Like no, why would anyone do that to themselves.

right? Like you can access your files that way. It's basically like know the files APP on your ipad or on your iphone. But the the lack of feedback like like you just have to kind of trust that it's doing thing.

And often times it's not like I export all of my photos and at its directly onto the I cloud because I just want to be able to access them on any device that I have that is an IOS or ipad OS device. And for the longest time, dad works was great, like I never had to like check IT in like last six months, like most files don't get upload and just don't know why. And it's painful that I can't really find out why that is. So the tool .

we use does IT have a name, is IT like a thing. People can go sign up foreign.

I'm not interesting sure if this like a business license to IT or you can like use IT just like by logging IT. IT is called media shuttle. And IT does have like a companion APP. It's basically just like extension or utility.

Oh yeah, i've had to use this before. It's just like a two thousand two web APP that it's just like put file here and you put file here and IT upload. But that's all you .

need is all you need is like a tiny little window. It's like this big onto your browser that just shows you like your file hierarchy structure and IT just works. Signal is just like companion after you have to like have downloaded IT, which i'm guessing that would help to you know continue the upload when you are away or close the computer or just like figure out which files already, which falls you don't need.

And yet that one works pretty well. There are like solutions that like production companies and like event teams use that. We just can't use this like you know, everyday users, cloud storage is kind of IT is tough, I guess like google drive is like not the safest option out there like a lot of companies don't want to use a google drive for that reason. So they will revert back to just like the significance and the media shuttle of this world, like a very neat specific like software that you probably need the corporate license for.

So yeah, that's very okay. So I will say to answer the why these so about question um I don't know, I don't know, but we're going to find out because this is true that google, microsoft have the infrastructure to be Better at this. And I I I have a bunch of guesses as to why IT would not be interested in giving you like blistering fast downloads and.

Make IT really easy to keep a whole file in one place that you can pull IT. But we're we should actually investigate that now cares going to find out. But IT seems like the best tip we can give you as a regular person is like you drop. This is not what I thought we we're going to be at the beginning of this. But IT is IT that is the best of all the bad options.

Onest ly, i've had black, most like wooden. And the dust up client IT just sort of works IT like works pretty well. It's less aggressive with trying like compressing your files.

I exist them into anything. The problem is that like I mean personally like I pay for four terrible and I cloud two terribles and drop box and I think two terribles and gold drive. And it's like, I know it's like it's way too much and I use them all like doubt is personal good drive.

The half of IT is from like you know our company in half IT is my and then I cloud if you pay for here's here's a tip you can pay for I called storage. But if you also add apple one, is that what it's called IT actually gives you more storage onto your I class driver. So a lot of people think that the maximum is too terrific.

You can actually double that with apple one or add a there, but I forgot exactly which which way IT is, but so you can get more out of your icon. But yeah, getting the dust of client from drops is the way to do IT. And I think just like organizing files through IT, it's a little bit easier.

If your company uses google drive and one use to use google drive, then you'll have to use the goole drive yeah just stop and spend like ten minutes learning how to actually like use IT. Well, so selective saying picking your folders, the leading the stuff. They don't need this like a lot more management that goes into IT, but IT works Better .

than just like a web interface. You eventually and get good right. Thank you very much to all our callers.

Thank you always for calling. I hope that help. alright.

That is IT for the verge cast today. Thank you to everyone who came on the show. And as always, thank you for listening. There's lots more on everything we talked about.

If you have thoughts, questions, feelings or suggestions for how to overcomplicate my coffee making strategy, again, you can always email us at verge cast at the verge cp. Com, or keep calling the hot line. It's six expert.

One one is so fun hearing all of your questions. Send me everything, all your thoughts, questions, feelings, ideas, everything. We're gna do a hot line question on every episode.

So please keep in coming. And again, if you have questions about the verge or the verge cast, please send me. This show is produced by andre marino and the m James.

Broke miners is our editorial director of audio. The verge cast is a verge production and part of the vox media podcast network. Me, I alex now will be back on friday to talk about banana surgery, the google verse and all of the other news of the week. You might be late August. They're so a lot on on to see them broken.

Support for this episode de comes from A W S. A W S, generate A, A, I gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced club.

Support for the show comes from A T, N T. What does he feel like to get the new iphone sixteen pro with A N T next up anytime? It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouth watering possibilities, learn how to get the new iphone sixteen pro with apple intelligence on A T N T and the latest iphone every year with A N T next up anytime N T connecting changes everything.

Apple intelligence coming fall twenty twenty four with theory and set to U. S. English, some features and languages will be coming over the next year. Zero dollar offer may not be available on future iphones. Next up, anytime feature maybe discontinued at any time, subject to change additional fees, terms and restrictions apply C A T T doc com sash iphone for details.