Deep Dive
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So this is your house? Yes, I live, I'll show you after. My room is right there and then all the girls live in the main house. All the girls? Yeah, I live with three girls from college. Oh my god. I know. And they're all like sitting in their room like this right now that you're here. Oh my god, that's so sweet. You love the girls. And why do you love them b****?
I know. So you're not from L.A.? No. Well, I was born in L.A. and then I was raised in New York. Okay. So I was raised in Washington Heights in New York. Yes. And then I moved to Los Angeles for college. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you just like the like yummy way of life. I just love L.A. But I'm like, why don't I live in Los Feliz? Because as we met the other night, I was like, I feel like everyone's in Los Feliz these days. And I actually used to live in Los Feliz when I was a little kid.
It's very cute over there. I do like it. It's nice over here today. Yeah. How are you doing today? I'm good. How am I doing? It's so cozy today. Saturday? It's kind of fun to do this on a Saturday. I know. And I literally called everyone up and I said, this is a 911. Lord is coming in on Saturday. I'm sick about it. And cancel your plans. Okay.
You're way too cute. I love you. I really do. And I'm so excited for your new album. Thank you. Are you, how long did it, how, how long did you, how long did you make it for? Like how long did it take?
I started making it at the fabulous Taylor Cosmo. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. And we have the Taylor there. So, so, so cool. And all the fake diplomas. Most universities. Sorry, I got distracted. No, please. I can tell you about anything you want to know about. Absolutely love, absolutely love. We started making it. I sort of tried to start making it sort of mid-23. And I just went crazy instead and went to London and...
Yeah, just sort of had a mental breakdown and...
Got single and yeah, just sort of, I don't know, it all happened. And then, um, probably at the end of 2023, we started making it. So we wrote, what was that? And I was like, okay, this is, this is sick. And then all 24, we made it basically. And was it like, were you having like, like, like, um, were you just struggling before, like to get like what you wanted to say out? And then you had to like have that moment where it's like you broke up and you went to London in order to like start regurgitating like everything out. Yeah.
I think I really wanted, there was something I really wanted from even before it started clicking. I met Jimmy, who I made the album with at the start of 2022, and I was like, there's a kind of music that I think I should be making, that I think we could make together. And I basically described to him what the album is. But it took me a long time to be able to...
So Vic took some bravery, actually, this album, like, just to be like, ah, like, really, like, go there. And it just takes some time. Like, I always think, like, you kind of have to, like, write your way out of the album before. Oh, interesting. I just spend all this time dancing around what I'm going to say and not saying it. So, you know, and then all of a sudden you, like, hear a sound, and you're like, oh, that's how it should sound. And then that builds it out. So I don't know. I'm just like –
I really went into it with no plan. I was like, I have to be very, keep very open and fuck around and like see what happens. Right. And then is that kind of like where the name like Virgin comes from? Cause it's kind of like, like all the anticipation in order to like get to that first time and then you like do it. And then it's like, everything starts flowing after that. Oh, I like that interpretation. Okay, cool. So that's not right. But I like it. It's cute. No, the name Virgin, I just felt like it was so...
There was something so cool about it to me, like I think. I mean, it like speaks to a sort of like purity, but the album was quite sexual. So it wasn't like sexual purity. It was just sort of this feeling of like newness and purity and sort of something coming right down to something essential. And even like, you know, there's virgin steel or virgin hair, like these things that are sort of like denote purity. But I also like...
you know, I'm kind of always trying to like stay connected to my like teen self. I feel like there's some real like magic in the like teen version of you. And I don't know, it was really like trying to kind of get back to this place where you're kind of
And it all sort of like spills out in a way that maybe you didn't want it to or, you know, yeah, you reveal something of yourself and that feels really vulnerable. And it sort of all felt like virginity to me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. I'm freaking out. It was okay.
I'm like, really? Like, I'm just like, I was like, how do I play this chill? Like, I really can't. Like, I literally remember like when Pure Heroine came out and I like, you know, when you just remember like certain moments of like listening to a song or an album and like exactly what you were doing. I remember like tying my shoes, like,
in my foyer of like my apartment and like listening to like team for the first time and like I remember getting into a fight with my best friend at the time and listening to 400 Lux and then I remember melodrama coming out and then so and I just like I'm so crazy that you're here I'm sorry I'm just like freaking out wait how old are you are we the same age we're close I'm 25 okay oh okay yeah okay okay
But do you ever like go back? You're so accomplished for 25. That's insane. Stop. When did you start? How long have you been doing this podcast? A year and a half. A year? That's insane. I know. A year and a half. Oh my God. Wait, when were you born? 1999. 1999. Jesus. So I like to say I'm like a 90s kid, but I'm not. Right, right, right. 99's cool. I like that. Right?
It's like right before 2000, but I'm a Scorpio and you're a Scorpio as well. Yeah. Right. So, so, so, so, so. I mean, I remember like, did you, it's so funny that you wrote, what was that? And then it ended up becoming the first single. Did you know when you wrote that you were like, this is a hundred percent on the album and this is going to be the first single. Yeah.
I did not know it was going to be the first single. I knew it was going to be on the album. And I kind of went back and forth on like whether or not to start there because, yeah, it is quite like classic me. Coming out of Soulpower, I was like, I think it's cool to like be like, it's me. Right, right, right. You know, and then kind of like go somewhere. Oh, so the album doesn't sound a lot like what was that? No, I mean, the album's just like...
freaky it's just cool and freaky and its own thing and like what was that just felt like a really cool like start to everything you know right I don't know yeah and you said that when you did what was that where you were like you kind of just like you didn't even write you didn't write anything before you kind of just like went in and did it no yeah so we have we have mics like this um almost exactly like this and I'm just like was just standing up and kind of walking back and forth and
Yeah. Wait, did you hear the, no, you haven't heard the album? Okay, okay. I haven't heard a single thing. Oh my God. I haven't heard a single thing. I'll play you something after this. I'm going to be sick. Okay, I need to calm down. I need to calm down. I need to calm down. I need to calm down. Do you have a favorite song on the album?
No, I have like eight favorites. Like I just love it so much. I've never loved anything I've made so much. Really? So sick. How is putting out this album different than when you put out solo power, when you put out melodrama or pure heroin or the love club? So cute. By the way, I love that you have the whole, the discography. I know. I love coming in there. So sick. Um, I, how's it different? I mean,
I don't know. This really feels like it's just, I mean, I sort of hate when I say, but it is just like who I am. Like this is just me at this exact age and stage. It feels like a, you know, section of my like favorites and my camera roll or something like, just like these are the iconic moments from age 26 to age 28. And, you know,
It's so, I do feel very, there's sort of like no song that I'm like, this is just like easy and straightforward to put out. Like they all, you know, I don't know. I think because so much of this album came from this place of wanting to write a song that like,
I was like, I don't have that in my phone and I've been going through this thing. And it's insane that I don't have this because I talk to all my girlfriends and they're all going through this thing, you know? So I don't know. Yeah. It just is quite, it gets in there and it's quite like, it's all very like to do with the body. It's very physical. It's very vulnerable in that way. And I honestly found like a lot of these songs quite hard to write and
Something took me a long time. I really dragged my feet, like, not finishing lyrics or whatever because it was just, like, uncomfortable for me. But I think that's, like, where the magic happens. I, like, now believe that, like, if you're not feeling that discomfort as anyone who makes something, you're, like, not making anything good. Like, you have to be kind of, you know, for it to, like, get into other people and really, like...
You know, that's what you're trying to do. Do you remember like a song on the album that was like specifically like really difficult to write and you were like, oh, but then like when you did it, it was like if like you felt this release maybe? Totally. Yeah. There's a song called Broken Glass that we, that I finished writing like two weeks before we handed in the album and we'd been working on it for like a year and I just couldn't, it was just so difficult.
Yeah, so, like, stuck in me. And I was just like, let it out, let it out. Stop it, bitch. Like, you don't... Because there is this thing when you write a song, you kind of let go of... It, like, releases the kind of, like, big, like, bit of tension that you'd been holding around that subject. And I really find this about pop music generally. Like...
Because it's so like, it's such a release, like pop music at its best. So cathartic, like that works on my body as well. Like I'm like, ah, I'm set free from that thing that I was struggling with, you know? And yeah, the song Broken Glass is totally, totally like that. But I literally, yeah, I just walked out of the studio. I was like,
I'm just going home. And I walked back to my house and like ate something. I just had to get out of the fucking studio. Right. And I feel like this album was kind of like that a lot, but it's like, we made it. Like, it's like kind of like, so you're so like the album's like, so in your head kind of, it was just so like in my head and my body, like, and there were things that I was just like, don't expose yourself like this. Like, don't like, I had this actually recently with, um,
You know, I did this interview with Rolling Stone and it was sort of the first time I had like talked about anything at length for years, you know, because I just like go the fuck away and come back. And, you know, we were talking about like, because I had dealt with some like food and body shit kind of for like, I don't know how long it was. Like it wasn't a super long period, but it was totally like disordered, you know, and just talking to people.
the journalist about it and she said something about like your recovery and I was like oh my god I'm someone who like has gone through recovery like it's even that I was like fuck like yeah this shit is real and I'm so vulnerable to be talking about it and I'm just so the kind of person who in my personal life I'm cool to be really open about it but it's a different thing when you're doing it like on the scale but I just really came to this realization I was like
this is what you're here to do. Like you're supposed to be, people respond to your vulnerability in this crazy way. And it like allows people to like get into these parts of themselves. And like, I'm just such a fan of music myself. And I know what it does for me when someone else goes somewhere, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go there, you know? And I was like, you just actually don't have a choice. You have to be brave and you have to get into these spots and
It will hopefully give other people an opportunity to be brave and hit the stuff within themselves. - Do you feel like, because you've been writing and performing for so long and your music's always so vulnerable, do you feel like as you continue to create and you continue along your career and you continue occupying public space, it becomes harder to be vulnerable as you continue to see yourself as yourself?
well this was the thing like and I'm so interested to hear from you about this like because I feel like as someone who like people are aware of and kind of look at your public perception over time can kind of like calcify and like almost like rust like it becomes quite like rigid and like it's like this coat that you've been like wearing for a long time and it gets like oh like you really have to be careful not to let
this kind of armor like rust onto you, you know, I think just as a human being, like it doesn't feel good. And I think it can be so like, okay. I had like crippling stage fright from when I was literally like five years old, but I remember being 16 and like having a panic attack on stage, you know, or like even on melodrama, I remember being,
like yeah basically like yeah just dealing with truly truly bad like very physical anxiety and that was kind of because I had just been like you've got to get out there you've got to perform and you've got to get it right you know I'd put this like crazy pressure on myself and something very rigid was happening and it was just wrong whereas like once I was like
you can deal with this in a human way and you can actually say to people on stage, like, whoa, I'm kind of feeling crazy tonight, but let's like be in that together. Maybe you've got my back. Right. And they're like, yeah, we've got you. And then something cool happens and then it's moving and then you're not locked up, you know? Um, so yeah, I really, I, I, I think that it's getting easier, like the older I get. Cause I'm also like, I don't know. I'm just at the age where I'm like, what's going to happen. What's the worst that could happen? Like,
I'm going to be too alive. I'm going to show too much vulnerability. Like, I believe that people know that I am trying my best. Yeah. And that I'm, like, yeah, not, like, actively, like, trying to be an arsehole, you know. And if I fuck it up, I fuck it up. And I don't know. I just, like, always respond better to people's vulnerability than –
like, rigid, you know? Well, it's almost like when, like, the armor rusts, you're, like, scared to take it off because you don't know if you're going to be able to get it back on. Totally. All of this. Like... But do you feel this? Like, do you feel yourself, like, as you get more kind of profile being, like, I have to, like, lock it down and, like, have it together or are you kind of, like, cool to let it all hang? Well, I used to kind of, like, let it all hang. And look, like, I am, like...
Very, very, very... This is, like, on a much smaller scale, but, like, I get very scared of things disappearing and going away. And I get scared of fucking it up and, like, saying something stupid where I used to... And it's funny because I feel like maybe that's why people initially, like... Like, your vulnerability, that's, like, why people resonate with you, you know? And then it's, like, you get scared of the reason people resonated with you in the first place because you get scared...
it will be like taken away from you almost. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. And I think I have to like maybe get to that point where you're at, where you're like, well, what's the worst that could happen? Yeah. Because right now, like I think like, well, I don't want to know the worst that could happen. You know what I mean? No, sure. I feel you. You know? Good to be safe too. Yeah. But like, is it? Do you feel like...
Solar Power was kind of like you coming out of that armor a little bit into like nature and like feeling everything. And then Virgin is like you like diving back into the water. This is such a good question. I feel like, what do I feel like? I feel like at the end of Maladrama, I really had this kind of, not meltdown, but I remember feeling all of a sudden like...
whoa hang on this thing that was my hobby that I did like after school is now like my employment and I employ all these other people it's gotten too big like I'm a kid I just felt this thing of like ah I felt scared I didn't know I was getting that little bit older like the new kind of like crop were coming in and I was like oh my god I don't know if I want to do this at this level I felt like really overwhelmed and just like went home to New Zealand got a dog and sort of
I don't know, had this moment of sort of being like, I don't know if I want to do all of that. Like, I'm just going to be this kind of girl who's like sort of off the map and like really mysterious and sort of like even more distant. And it's all about came from a place of like feeling very joyful and, you know, chill. And like, it was also so crazy touring melodrama. Like I found it very interesting.
For that whole time, very intense to be sort of, like, in this, like, very just, like, hardcore music. Right, right. I don't know. Like, I, for some reason, found it very intense. And I just wanted, like, something that felt, like, very light and easy after that. But it was cool. Like, I, like, love Solar Power so much. And I truly needed to make it. Like, I wouldn't be here with another album if I hadn't made Solar Power. But I think it showed me that, like...
you sort of don't, you sort of just have no choice but to like be who you're supposed to be. Like me sort of like disappearing and being all like wafty and like on the beach. Like I was just like, actually, I don't think this is me. I think like I just am this person who's meant to like make these like bangers that like fuck us all up and like that just like,
Rip across a like festival ground Like I was like that's I'm supposed to like do that to our bodies Like I don't think I'm supposed to like Vibe out
And it was kind of sad for me because I love to vibe out. And I am like, that is like me to my core. Like I'm in an alternate universe where I just like lived in New Zealand and, you know, like worked at like an organic farm or something. Like that would be my vibe. But it's like not the life for me, I think, right now. But I think what's so beautiful about your music is like all of your work is your vibe at the time. Hmm.
You know what I mean? That's beautiful, Jay. Thank you. Well, it's true. It's true. Solar power is like... I'm just saying that. It's very true. Like, solar power, you know, I find myself when I listen to music at the age where you wrote the music, like, I relate to it so much heavier. Like, when I listen to melodrama, it's like a 21, 22, 19, like, you know, when I listen to it, I was like, like...
like, ah, like I feel this, you know, like I feel this. And then when I listened to solar power today, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to fucking go out. Like I, I like, I want to get high and go and go to the nail salon. I don't smoke anymore, but I used to do that all the time and listen to stoned at the nail salon. And, um, yeah. And I think that's, what's really beautiful. I think that's honestly what makes your music, uh, timeless. Like in my eyes is that it really is like this kind of universal diary. And you, you spoke about, um,
feeling these things and not having it, being able to hear it in your ear because no one else spoke about it. But I think you speak about it and you have. Love you. Love you. So sweet. Love you. So beautiful to hear that. It's true. Because it is a funny thing. Like when you start putting stuff out from a young age, like you're going to grow and change. You were young too. I was like so young. And, you know, I think it's okay if,
I think like whether you make stuff or not, like if it just doesn't all move in a straight line, like it's cool. The zig and the zag is actually a really awesome part of it all. And I have like no regrets ever. Like for any zig, any zag, even the ones that are like uncomfortable in the moment or don't feel as representative or whatever, you know, love it all. Like, yeah, it gets you.
it gets you there you know i i would send i would text my friend julia i'd say sorry and then she'd say why and then i'd send like all the lyrics to supercut and then she'd be like cool like you're so sorry sorry i honestly like this is very moving for me because i actually like um really struggle with like feeling like anything i've done
It does anything for anyone. Like, I truly... Like, it's very hard for me to... Are you kidding? No, I'm not joking. Like, some days it, like, really hits. Like, I'm just like, wow. Like, it's so moving for me. There's some fucking slammers on the album. Please tell me one. I mean, there's some crazy ones. This album's more like...
I'm trying to think of one that you would think was cool. I will think all of them are cool. Thank you. There's a song that I love so much called Clear Blue that is about unprotected sex. And just this experience of like taking a pregnancy test and like this like flood of emotions that goes through your body, like whatever you want it to say, it's like such a like...
And that whole song, like, is just so, like, destroys me. Like, I can't even really listen to it. How did you come up with, like, the cover of it? Like, what is the cover? Because I've been trying to, like, figure out, like, is that, like, an iPad in the chest? No. Okay. So the cover is my pelvis and then my IUD. And the cover, yeah, I just had this. Did I just think it IUD was an iPad? Yeah.
It is a very... It's an abstract image. Okay, good.
Cool, cool, cool. Cool, cool, cool. But they are weird. Like, I wouldn't expect... I didn't know what they looked like until I had one. Yeah. I had no idea. I thought it was an iPad. No. And I thought it was, like, this, like, saying of, like, technology. And, like, I thought it was this whole thing. Sort of, like, maybe six months in that I wanted to take a lot of x-rays and, like, ultrasounds and MRIs. It felt like a really interesting...
kind of like techie but like mystical type of image capture and seeing like right into you and right through you but also like so much information is lost like it's quite mysterious but it was funny like I making the album before I even sort of figured this out I was like using the x-ray emoji a lot text to friends like it just sort of felt like where I was at like I was just trying to like see right into myself and I would like
I don't know, a friend would send me a text and I'd be like, wow, like x-ray emoji. And I started like using it online a lot. And so funny when the album comfort came out, the like kids and I like read it were like, some of them were kind of like, you know, um,
Like, this was such a, like, she was just teasing this for such a long time. Like, why did she tease it? And I'm like, you don't understand. I had no idea that was going to be in the cover. Like, using that emoji sent me to the cover. Like, this whole album was just so, I would see something written down somewhere and I would write it down and then that would make it into a song or, you know, I don't know, it was just this very open space.
of like creation that like partly sometimes would be like, oh, I'm texting this thing to my friend a lot. I think that's part of the album, you know? Yeah. Do you, is there like, were there any like alt covers that you were going to go with? And how did you like, like, were like, did you have any like alt or did you just like take this one and you were like, this is it? We took a whole lot of x-rays. Um,
no, I just sort of like took all these x-rays and was like, I think it's going to be something like that. And then did you like have any other like, um, title names for the album besides Virgin or did, was it just like, this is it? Okay. So we actually did. Oh,
I can't tell you because I might use it. We'll see. I totally, yes. I might use it for something else. But no, the album had a full other name for like most of the time. Oh, no way. And I was like, I think it needs a name that is more reflective of what it is. And it changed. But that's never happened to me before. Oh, like when you came up with like Pure Heroine, Melodrama, did those names come to you like immediately and it was like, this is it? Soul of Hour I had before I started the album. Melodrama I had...
Yeah, kind of like halfway through. Pure Heroine I didn't have till the end. But yeah, I never had like a full other name. Yeah. Quite stressful when I was like, I don't think that's it. I was like, it'll come, it'll come. I'm chill. Did you, how many songs did you record for the album? Good question. I feel like I basically only ever record like,
give or take one or two, like the amount that's on the album and then everything else is like sort of half finished. Like I only, yeah, it's a weird thing about me. I only really, everything I write, everything I finish, if I finish the song, it's like meant to be released. And if I don't finish it, it's not. There's like one Lucy hanging around, which maybe we'll see the light of day. We'll see.
I know it takes me so long to squeeze out these old nuggets. Right. It takes me years. It's like not even that long. Did you do the, you did the whole album with Jimmy, right? I did the whole album with Jimmy, yeah. And I can't believe I just called him by the first name. I know, I love it. Because I like kind of, it's Jimmy Stack, right? Jimmy Stack. Yeah, like so in my head I was like, what if that's not his last name? So I just went by Jimmy. It's great, I love it. But how did you guys meet? How did that, how did you come together?
We met because I sort of like saw his name in the credits of a few. I'm a real like genius lurker and I would like see people in the credits of things. And he just like worked on a couple of things they thought were really cool. And yeah, at the start of 2022, I just met with him and was like, I think that like we're supposed to make like generational bangers together. So intense. Yeah. He was like, right, right. Yeah.
I was like, I think some of us just have that in us and we have a duty to do it. I was like, it's our obligation. He was like, cool, okay, let's try something. What did he think of the...
Sorry, did I just interrupt you? No, not at all. I'm going to freak the fuck out. No, no, perfect. What did he think of the Washington... How did you come up with, like, the Washington Square Park idea? Was he there for that? Oh, my God. No, he wasn't there for that, which is sad for him. But he... Yeah, how did we come up with it? Well, I... So I'm in the park every day. I think it's, like, an amazing thing about living in New York City that...
there are these spaces that are sort of private but shared, you know, you'll see people like sitting in the park and having their own moment next to a whole lot of other people. And I think that's like why you live in a city like New York. And yeah, I'm just like, I'm in that park literally every day, whether I'm reading, whether I'm,
taking a call or listening to, like, voice notes or texting people back or just, like, sitting looking at the fountain. I love watching the skaters when the fountain's off. And it's just, like, this, like, cool built-in stage, you know, and, like, right where the fountain is. And there's always people performing in the park. And I was, like, you know...
this is all it is, like, I'm so privileged to have the kind of, like, level of interest that I have, but at the end of the day, the bravery of anyone standing in a park and performing, like, it's, it's, it's exactly that, that's, that's what's happening when I, when I put something out, you know, so I wanted to, like, I wanted to feel that vulnerable and that, like,
I don't know. Yeah, just kind of like I felt vulnerable standing in the fucking park. Yeah. Being like, here's my song. Right, right. It's actually quite a crazy feeling, you know. I was literally walking there and then it got shut down for a second. So I was like, okay, I guess I'll just go to dinner. And then I checked my phone and I was like, cool. So she went back. Where did you go for dinner? I went to... Where did I go to dinner? I went to this...
Sartianos. Oh. It was like this Italian place. What's your favorite restaurant in the city? My favorite? Yeah. I was scared to say it because I love it so much. I don't want anyone to go there. We can bleep it out. Okay, okay. It's a Japanese restaurant. Okay, so I've never heard of it. So we're going to bleep that out. To save it for you. Save my restaurant. It's my obsession. Do you love Japanese food? I love Japanese. Yeah.
I'm like, I'm vulnerable. I'm like, bleep my wrist off. Yeah, I love Japanese food. I'm trying to think of other restaurants that I like in the city. I don't know. It's quite hectic. It is very hectic. Going out, like dinner. I'm like, whoa. Yeah. Shit, you know. I'm never making a res. Like, I don't quite. Right. I'm always behind. Right. How long have you lived in the city for? Moved in 2021. I got my place. Yeah.
I bought it off a FaceTime. I had a FaceTime tour. And I was like, seems awesome. Quite a like bold way to purchase property. But I love it so much. I love living in the city. It was so good for me. I like, because I'm such a little like internal being. Like I can really tuck away. And yeah, I think just it forces me to,
Get out there and I find it like super, cool sentence, I find New York City super inspiring. But just like in the way of like seeing what everyone's wearing, you know, you see the fashion change like in like a day. Right. All of a sudden you're like, oh, people are wearing it slightly differently. Right. Or like, I don't know. Yeah, I just, I find it very inspo. It's just a cool city. And I think it's cool in your 20s to like,
Let it all hang in New York. I don't know if I'll be there forever, but I really love it. Do you think you'll go back? Do you miss it? Yeah, I was just there. I love it, but growing up there for me is so different than my experience with it now. I don't know if you feel the same way with New Zealand, but I hated it growing up. I hated it because I hated how I was. I hated...
I was so uncomfortable in my own skin. I, like, didn't go out. Like, I, like, well, I wanted to go out. It wasn't that I didn't want to go out. It was, like, it was just, like, to grow up in New York, it's, like, I looked like a baby, so my fake ID didn't work. And then, like...
I did. So like these places would be like, I'd go with all my girlfriends and they'd be like, yeah, you need to go home. And I, so I was like, I hate this city. I hate this city. And then now when I go back, I have the best time. Like I go on dates and I see people, I actually find like dating and romance to be like much more alive in New York than it is in Los Angeles. Right. So for that reason, I will say like, yeah, I would like to settle down in New York, but, um,
um like my whole life is here my family is here my best friends are here everyone I work with is here and I it would just be so hard for me to leave and I also feel like I'm that type of person I don't know if you also feel this way but it's like I hate wherever I'm at in the moment and I romanticize everywhere else like you know what I mean got it got it so when I'm in New York I'm like I miss LA and then when I'm in LA I'm like I miss New York you know it'll always be there you know you can pop back
Okay, I have a question. And it's been eating me alive for years. Is Melodrama a concept album in the sense that it takes place over one house party? Wow, I love. I mean, good question. Kind of, kind of. I definitely was throwing a lot of parties at my house and I liked the natural of a party and how it can feel like a sort of like...
opera or play or something. There's like the peak and then it all falls apart and then there's like hope at the end. I don't know. I definitely like, yeah, there's like some of that arc to it. But I don't know. Yeah, I also just like, I think it was quite like drama that I didn't like. It's just like I wanted like...
i liked like the idea of like a concept yeah yeah yeah concept album like it just seemed cold when i told my best friend i was like so melodrama takes place over one house party she dropped her phone she said okay like what do you i remember oh god i just i it's so crazy that you say that sometimes you feel like you don't have an impact because like
Your music is some of the most music I remember exactly where I was. Like, it was during COVID and my best friend had never heard Perfect Places and she was in the bathroom and I was sitting on the couch and I put it on and she swung the door open and she said, what the fuck is this? And I said, it's Perfect Places and I just will never forget. It's one of my favorite moments of my entire life and like, I just share so much of that. I feel like, I'm sorry, I feel like it's just me like regurgitating how much I love your stuff. That's so beautiful. But like,
It really, like, I don't know when else I'm going to be able to do this. So I just have to do it now. I appreciate this so much. Truly. No, it's so beautiful.
This episode of Therapist is brought to you by Booking.com. Booking. Yeah! Once again, I am so grateful that Booking.com is the sponsor for this episode because once again, we used it. We are going to Denver tomorrow. We have nowhere to stay. And Matt once again pulled up Booking.com, typed in what we needed, whether that be walking distance, whether that be a terrace, whether that be a tub. Shout out Meredith from Salt Lake City. Whether that be anything you could want, you can put in and it will show you options. And it
It really takes the stress away about everything. Like I used to get so stressed out when we wouldn't have rooms booked because Matt does everything so last minute. And like I'm just not the type of person to do that. But with Booking.com, it makes it so easy because I know that we will always find something. You can also book vacation rentals. You can book car rentals. Like anything you need to make the vacation as full and as complete as possible, Booking.com has.
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Booking.yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. What are you therapist about today? What am I therapist about? Like, what are you angry about? What am I angry about? Um, I'm angry. Oh, um...
Okay, well, I am not supposed to have my period today. I have my period today because I'm like taking spironolactone for my skin and it's like not really working. So I've gone up the dose and I, and like going up the dose is like fucking with like, now I have my period. And I'm like, I just feel like women's health is like not, I'm like, this is like years behind where it should be. It drives me fucking crazy. I'm like-
I've had this whole journey of like coming off my birth control and my hormones, everything's been so insane. I'm like, how do we still, how is this all so kind of mysterious? So that I'm like, let's get it together. Modern medicine. I know. It'll probably take them forever to do it as well. Yeah. Whatever you, whatever you do, you're killing it. Like, yeah. I'm proud of you for like listening to your body because it's, um,
It's quite hard to do. I only started listening to my body like two years ago. I was like, wow, she's telling me something. Like I can hear if I just keep quiet, I can hear. What do you mean like listen to your body? Like how did you like learn how to, I feel like I don't listen to my body. So I am curious how to do it. It's so, so hard. And I like had no idea. I don't know. There's just like all this information that if you like just sit tight and listen, like she's actually telling you a lot. And I feel like, yeah, it's, it can be quite,
For me, it was, like, very long and slow and gradual. And it would just be about, like, listening over, like, a month and being, like, this month feels different to the last month. And here's maybe why. Like, you just kind of have to chill it out and find some stillness, which is so hard. Like, I, you know, still really struggle. But I'm, like, just listen. She'll tell you. You know. This is the craziest thing. It's, like, I always say this to friends. This is my, like, new, like,
advice thing. I'm like, you know, they'll be like, should I, what is it? Should I do this? Should I do this? I'm like, you actually already know the answer. Like, so just listen, it's in there. Like everything about your life, you know, you actually know what it's meant to be. How do you distinguish? Like, do you, do you have like deal with like anxiety and stuff? Not really. I mean, I like definitely at the moment, like tweak out in the mornings. Oh yeah. I used to have that. But I'm actually like not,
Not really. Because sometimes for me, it's like... It's existential for me. Right. Like, I have this, like, gut feeling and I'm like, is that a gut feeling or is that anxiety? Right, right. Like, I can't tell. But, like, hopefully, like, when I'm able to, like, help distinguish it. But have you ever been, like, found yourself in a situation where you're like, I can't tell which one it is? Totally, yeah. No, I mean, I make mistakes all the time. Right. I'm constantly like...
Yeah. Why didn't I? But it is usually that I didn't listen to myself or that I, this is my other obsession, it's not going too fast. Like I think often we make a decision that doesn't totally represent us because we move too fast. You're kind of like making the decision from like not a grounded place or whatever. I think sometimes I'm like,
Slow it down, sis. Yeah. Just like walk a little bit slower and see how it feels. Right. Yeah. So I don't know if that can help. I think I need to slow down. Slow it down. Yeah. Listen. Do you like, like your later twenties? Like, are you liking your later twenties more than your middle or earlier twenties? I absolutely love it. I am completely obsessed from when I turned 26, but really 27. Yeah.
I'm obsessed. It gets so much better. It's sick. Like this is the best time of life. I kind of, 25 is quite difficult for me. Yeah, it's hard. I hope it's been good to you, but 28, 29, like I just can't wait. I feel like the next like 10 years, honestly, I'm just like, this is a prime of life for sure. It's so sick because you're finally like,
confident enough in yourself you're like I am hot I see it now I'm hot like I just before that every year was like I would see a picture of me from a year ago and be like oh you were gorgeous oh is that not the worst feeling in the entire world you know and like you were so interesting and you had cool stuff going on and you just got like lost in the like day-to-day so I feel like I finally have like enough of a sense of myself
I don't know. Yeah. You just like tap into it and you're, yeah, you're just hot. It's cool. Sex is good. You know, you just kind of like, it all like clicks together. I'm really excited for that. And I've like never been excited to like grow older, but like, I'm really excited to do like 27, 28. You're going to be your hottest. Like I feel it too. We'll do this again in three years and you're going to be like, Oh my God, like I get it.
I, cause I look, when you said that, I was like, I look at old photos of myself from high school and I was like, I thought I was the ugliest motherfucker in the room at the time. And it's like, I want to like hit myself. It's like, why did I think that? Truly. So it's like, I'm really trying to work on like, I really try to remind myself in the moment, like, especially when I go on dates and stuff, it's like,
In two years, you're going to be like, you were hot. So just feel it now as opposed to like, I was actually thinking about it literally this morning. And I was like, cause I wasn't like a very sexual person for like my entire high school. And then I was like trying, and then I was like thinking about my freshman year of college and like,
How I like, it's like when you don't like view yourself as sexual or you don't even like view yourself as hot, like no one else around you is going to, it's like such an energy thing. Truly. I know. No, it has to come from you. And it's also this thing of like, I feel like I was so conditioned at school to be like
this is hot and everything else outside of that is not hot you're like no actually just someone who is themselves is beautiful and hot like it kind of is that simple you know whether you have like fucked up skin or you know whatever the thing is about you like if you feel it like you will just emanate hotness right it really is like energy i always tell you like
When, like, when I hook up with someone, I always say, like, which is few and far between. But I always say, like, I haven't had sex in two years. I know. I know. I know. Wait, what? Tell me.
Talk about it. Do you talk about this all the time? No, like, so basically what happened was I lost my virginity when I, I'm really just going into it, but like. We can cut anything you're not comfortable with. No, no. Are you down for me to tell you this story? Go, go, of course. Okay, so like I lost my virginity when I was 21 and like it was with a much older guy and we like didn't use protection. Oh, okay. And then so like for the next two years after that, I had like this like crazy internal panic that I had like all these diseases and then I,
Like I finally like got like tested for diseases and they're like, yeah, you're you're good. Like you you're good. And then like I had sex one more time and then I was like, no, no, no, no. And then I just haven't really had sex since that. So I think I've only had sex twice. And it's like but when I but I'm trying to like get myself back out there. And then it's like once I started doing this, I started feeling like.
I like to make everyone laugh, but then by like making a fool of myself, but then I have this like juxtaposition where I'm like, is everybody making fun of me? And then it's very hard to separate in the bedroom and it's very hard to separate like romantically. Yeah.
So like, I don't know if like, I don't, I don't know. I, I, it's probably so different for you cause you like write like music and stuff, but like for like when I'm, because people are laughing at like, cause I'm like, my goal of the day is like to make somebody laugh. It's hard to separate like romantically. So I think that's maybe why I haven't had sex. Wow. So, so it would be like, it would make you feel like really closed up.
if that person laughed at you, like you're scared they're going to laugh at you, but you want, like you want them to laugh at you? No, like, no, no. It's like, it's like a lot of my videos, there's like me moving my body or it's like me look like, like, like when I do my podcast on the road, like I make fun of old photos of myself that I look bad in. No, but like, if like a potential, like romantic interest, like you're scared of them laughing at you. Is that the feeling? Like scared of them laughing at like my body. Yeah. At your body. Oh my God, darling. You're so beautiful. Well,
No one, like they won't, people won't laugh at you. It's just hard to like tell yourself because like, I don't know. You're so gorgeous and hot though. Like just objectively, like I'm like, you're gorgeous. And you must have so many people hitting you up, right? I have one right now. You have one? Wait, are you kissing? Do you do a lot of kissing? Recently I am. So that's why I feel like. Do a lot of kissing. I feel like I feel like a tad lighter.
Do I? It's because I'm like maybe catching a dick here and there. Okay, fabulous. Not like in the... Not in the... Yeah, you know, but like everything else and like I'm trying to talk to people. I'm trying to get to know people. That's all sex though. Like I don't... I think you should like...
take the juice out of like sex being one thing. Like it's all sex, you know, kissing can be sex if you want it to be. Like kissing is like so intimate and fabulous. And I love kissing. Just kiss so much. And like, eventually like you'll just get like hungry for like, like more. I just like need more. Like, but just go so slow. Like don't rush yourself. Listen, like just be like,
what do you need right now in there? You know? Yeah. Just like take your time. Yeah. Oh my God. It's going to be great. Like I feel, well, I feel like this summer I have a good feeling about it. Hopefully it is, it is a Lord summer. It's a Lord summer. And I, I feel like last summer was brought summer. So last summer, like I was like partying and getting myself out there. And now it's Lord summer where I'm going to like party, but like,
really like feel into like my thoughts and emotions and myself and like yearn and like feel everything my summer is one of yearning yes i want it i want to like jump down the streets of new york to virgin and like it's perfect that's right it's gonna happen what do you listen to like what what is the music you listen to and what do you watch i i am so curious oh my god okay well
It's funny, like, I actually didn't listen to, like, a ton of music in the last year. And I listen to, like, stuff that I've listened to a lot, like, just for sort of, like, comfort. I don't know. But I, what do I listen to? Someone was talking about this the other day. I always find it so hard to answer this question. The explosion. No worries. Yeah. What do I listen to?
You know who I love, actually, who I think is so cool? It's Tate McRae. I love her. I love her. Yeah. She's so cool. She's so good. She's everything. She's incredible. Yeah. I love her. I listened to her album recently. I was like, you're so awesome. She's such a performer, too. Insane. She's so captivating. Can she not be that good at dancing? Like, it's quite rude. I find it quite rude. I'm like, chill. Yeah.
Have you guys met? No, no. I would actually be like, hi. She would be the same. You'll love her. She's the kindest, sweetest. She's the best person ever. Wow, sick. And she's a very, very big fan of yours. Wow. What did I listen to? I'm just, yeah, it's been a weird moment for me with pop culture. Like, I'm like...
Kind of bad at watching movies. I'm horrible at watching movies. I watch really random movies. Like, I'm kind of interested in The Accountant 2. I'm like... That is so random. Like, I don't understand this about myself. I like, like... I saw, like, Nosferatu. That was sick. Oh, yeah, that was cool. I saw Baby Girl. You know? I don't know. I'm like, what is on? Have you... TV, what's on? Like, what do you... Like, I have a... Like, what's your vibe of, like, a TV show? Because, like, I can, like, put you on in a certain direction if you're looking for it.
My vibe is like, see, I don't know. I'm like, I'm watching the rehearsal, the Nathan Fielder. I love Nathan Fielder. Show. I think he's really cool. I watched the White Lotus. Of course. I didn't watch Severance, which maybe I would be into. You would, but I have a show for you that I think you would love. Talk to me. You fine if it's foreign and like subtitled? I was like, no. Yeah, I know. I was like, it's pure men. Yeah. It's called Dark. Oh, okay. And it's,
Okay, so basically all you need to know is that a boy goes missing in a small German town. It's a trilogy of seasons, so it's three seasons. It is the most beautifully shot, beautifully told story I've ever seen in my entire life. Wow. I know you will love it.
Wow. Dark. Okay. Sick. It is on, it's about time and like love. And like, I know it's, I'm being very broad, but I just don't want to give too much away. It is really so amazing. And it feels like, like if I'm like really thinking of it, like I can see like your music, like playing over it. Wow. Okay. Tight. I'm going to watch that. It's amazing. It's amazing. What are you watching right now? I'm, I'm rewatching Glee. Oh my God. Glee. Glee was so cool. Glee was the best.
Wow, what season are you watching? I'm about to be done with season one. So they're about to be at regionals. I'm so excited. So sick. And I'm really pumped. So I'm re-watching Glee. I just watched Overcompensating. Oh my gosh, yeah. You need to watch it. Which is amazing. It's amazing. They have a great scene where they, I think it's team. Oh, yeah.
where he's like something about like, he's like, yeah, Lord's hot. He's like pretending to be straight. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. And then, God, what else? What else am I watching? Yeah, I'm watching Glee. I'm watching, what else am I watching, Louise?
I just, oh, I just watched The Leftovers, which was beautiful. I'm obsessed with The Leftovers. That's so sick. You've seen The Leftovers? It's unbelievable. One of my favorite shows. It's unbelievable. And I feel like underrated. Beyond underrated. It's very cool. Very cool of you. Thank you. What do you think about the ending when she's like, do you watch the whole thing? I watch the whole thing. Do you remember the end where she's like, Yes. Fucked me up. Fucked me up.
Unbelievable. Special shot. It's really special. Oh my God. I can't believe you've seen the leftovers. That's awesome as fuck. Very cool. Do you want to get into the tell me what's wrongs? Yes. Yes. Okay. So these, the tell me what's wrongs are the pussy's right in and they tell us what's wrong essentially. And we, we give them advice and we like, like for example, like, and we prescribe them things. So like if someone was like,
I keep wanting to go back to this guy. It was so bad, but I can't. I'm having trouble remembering the bad. Oh, my God. I prescribe Supercut. Oh, okay, okay. So we're prescribing a song. Like media or anything. Or a book, whatever. Okay, I'm ready. I want to be a singer so badly, and I know that it's what I'm meant to do. I just can't seem to put myself out there as I have massive stage fright. All I want to do is share my music with the world, but I'm literally my own barrier. What do I do?
Like, what was it like for you to first overcome that stage fright? Oh, my God. It was so hard. It's so, it's so, I tried everything. I truly tried everything. Something that really helped me actually was someone said to me that being super anxious can sometimes be your body condition.
confusing excitement or aliveness for like danger because it's so activating. You're like, am I safe? And I think sometimes it's just about being like in pursuit of like my most exciting, beautiful life. I'm going to like feel this like super intense feeling, you know, and just remind yourself like this feeling in my chest is actually real.
It's like aliveness and excitement. But it's easier said than done. I had to really do some crazy therapy to stop having stage fright. Were you scared to put out your music when you were younger? Or were you too young to even acknowledge the fact that it was a scary thing to do? No, I wasn't scared of putting stuff out. And I did love to perform. I did theatre as a kid and stuff. It just...
Just like the actual performance. I was like, I'm going to be sick. Yeah. Okay, wait, but what are we prescribing? For the stage fright thing, I would prescribe... Beta blockers. Literal prescription. You know, I've never taken a beta blocker. Oh. Are they amazing? I don't know. It wasn't strong enough for me. Okay. That's what I think it's going to be for me as well. I would actually prescribe some fresh air. Sometimes I think, just take a sec. Fresh air. Yeah.
Brings everything down a little. I kind of also prescribe like... I know like... Okay, so I always describe like doing something scary. No, no, no. I'm about to do what you just did. A cooking show? No, you can do... No, you can prescribe anything. I'm going to like prescribe jumping into cold water because when you... Because I always describe like doing something scary as like jumping into water and then like... Or like...
Because then you're in the, like, and then at that point, like, you're wet and you're in the water. Yeah, get the shock. Yeah. So you just have to get the shock over it. Yeah, yeah. Cold shower. So, like, jump into the cold water. That's nice. And kind of, like, try to imagine that as your music career. That's perfect. Yeah. Love. I think my boyfriend is holding me back. We've been dating for three years and moved across the country together. And now I've been living together for the past seven months. But there's part of me that is yearning for more self-exploration without a partner. Help. I prescribe breaking up. Yeah. Yeah.
I unfortunately prescribe breaking up. Yeah. You will. You probably are being held back. And you, I do believe that there's no substitute for being alone. Like you just have to, if you feel like you need to take a second, find yourself, you, nothing else will do that except for being alone and really like just seeing how that feels.
um what would i prescribe what's like inspo about like being single trying to think of a culture well actually the movie someone great which i always prescribe but i really think it's a really good movie because she was being held back by her partner okay and um that's actually the movie where um i really fell in love with supercut oh my god so beautiful have you seen someone great i actually haven't seen it but i did hear that it was it's like in this yeah in this really beautiful montage of their relationship and it's like
The Devil Wears Prada, I just remembered. She's like kind of held back. Yeah, she's being held back. That's my favorite movie of all time. Is it really? I've seen it. It's the movie I've seen the most. Me too! I'm obsessed with The Devil Wears Prada. Oh my God, me too. It's an incredible movie. What do you think about the ending? What do you mean? Like when she leaves the job. I'm always like, I want her to stay and be like Miranda. I think it's right. I think it's right. I love her little outfit at the end when she's like, I'm not in fashion anymore.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, low-key outfit, but still, like, you can tell she's... Still, like, fashion. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God, I love that movie. Jeff Weiss Prada actually is good, because that boyfriend... Is the worst. He's so hot, but he's holding her back. He really is, and he gets mad at her for missing his birthday. Yes. Which is, like, valid, but, like, she was, like... Yes, iconic. Oh, God.
I had a huge crush on a guy and now he's dating my best friend. The worst part, I told her they'd be cute together. I've never experienced that before. This is the kind of shit that I would do. Yeah. I would be like, you guys, you know. What is like the psychology behind that? Like trying to be such a cool, chill girl. You know, that you like stab yourself in the back. Right. I mean, this is every rom-com of all time. Yeah, it is. Why would you prescribe a rom-com? I want to prescribe something that's like...
I think you just have to go in there and like really spill all and just like let it all hang and be like, I'm obsessed with you. Oh my God. I've never done that before. Have you ever done that before? No, but I think just like blow it up. See what happens. I don't know. You could lose it all, but it's terrible advice. No, it's good advice. It's advice that I've never done and I probably should have. I'm just like, life is too short. Like you can't, what are you going to do? Not,
say how you feel. You know? What's going to happen? I don't know. I'm clearly in a real like fuck it mode. No wait, I'm obsessed but that's because I feel like that's like the late 20s vibe. You know what I mean? It's like whatever. Are you going through your Saturn return right now? People say this. I think that I went through it prematurely. Yeah. Probably about to get fucked up by it but no, I, 2020,
5.26 was very difficult for me in a way that felt like what my girlfriends would say to me about Sam Returns. So time will tell, I guess. I feel like I've arrived somewhere and it's like a cool settled feeling to where I am. So we'll see. Do you remember a moment where you like finally felt like, oh, like I'm out of that bad period? Yes. I feel like it was sometime...
last year right at the end of 2023 I was like okay I've got like one layer of skin like I've like just felt sealed over like but it was so fragile and then I think 2024 it's sunk in a bit more and I felt like okay yeah like I'm it's coming together I can like see who I'm meant to be and all these like you know big moves that are so like painful um they like what
they were paying off and it finally felt like I was like, okay, this is good things are happening. You know? Did you feel, cause I think I might've seen you say somewhere that like when you did the girl, so confusing remix with Charlie, like that was like this like really cathartic release that kind of like led you into like finishing this album. It was so cathartic and amazing. I like, I'm just so grateful to her. Like what a cool,
just everything about that was so cool. It was so, it was so vulnerable. Like I just have all the respect in the world for her, um, having that vulnerability and like sending it my way. Like, because I'm, I was the perfect person to receive that because I was like finally at a place in my life where I could be like, okay, like I've hurt someone and I need to
explain myself and make it right with them and through that like something could be really cool for other people to like witness as well but like if that had hit me you know six months or a year before I would have been so frozen by shame and it's so like hard getting called out you know like it's you know I just don't think that I would have been able to I don't know go there or something I think people were like so like people so admired how you like
you like received the feedback and like validated the feedback and then was like but this is like why i was the way i was yeah i think it like was like so healing for like everybody it was like like it was healing for me it was legitimately healing for me i like it's also just so like it is so fucking hard being a girl it's so it is so confusing and um
Yeah, I just, like, never had a version of that conversation before and I'd always wanted to. And, yeah, it was, I just, like, it was just amazing. I'm so grateful. Like, what a cool, what a cool girl. Yeah. I, like, can't believe, like, that's our pop princess. Like, it's just so perfect. It is so fucking perfect. It's amazing. When you got, so how did it, when you got the, you got the song and a voice memo. I got the voice memo. Yeah.
And then you like, did you call her and be like, this is how I feel? Or did you literally just send back the lyrics? Yeah, no, I was like, I was like, hey sis, I'm just waking up in New York. I'm so sorry. Like, let me hit you back. Like, we're going to, this is going to be sweet. Let me just, you know, I was like, we sort of sent a couple voice notes. I was like, can you get me the stems? Like kind of that day I was like, I was, I sort of had this feeling like it would just be easier if I,
just expressed it on the song, you know, and then it would come together. And yeah, that day started working on it. I think I recorded it the next day. And yeah, I was like, hey, I've recorded something. Do you want to hear it? Should we talk first? Or should I just send you the lyrics? And she was like, send me the lyrics. I was like, okay, I just fired them over. Wow. That was that. Yeah. No, it was so, so beautiful. So amazing to listen.
to get feedback. Like, I honestly think it's one of the coolest, most loving things, like in a friendship or a relationship where someone can be like, hey, like, it's making me feel like this, you know, doesn't have to be like an attack on you. It's just like, this is how it's making me feel. And you're like, oh my God, it's making me feel like that. Right. You know, I just, it's so incredible that,
she was able to do that for me. And now we like ride. It's real. Like we're like, it's, it's for life. Like you guys talk all the time. We don't like talk all the time, but there's just like a depth of like, like we have each other's back for life. Like it's one of those. That's beautiful. So cool. Do you have a favorite lyric in that verse? In my verse? Yeah.
I mean, I love You Walk Like a Bitch. Me too. Someone had said that to me when I was like 11, you know, 10. And it was just, sometimes you just hold something your whole life and you're like, I can let it fly free in a song and all these other people are going to scream it and it'll be so cathartic and amazing. Yeah, maybe that. And I am quite proud of that.
It's just self-defense until you're building a weapon. Yeah, that's... Don't clear it. That's like a bar. I heard that and I was like... You know what I mean? I was like, yeah. I liked a meme that I saw of it. It was like the Oppenheimer guy, but sort of like with a crazy filter on. Crazy lips and eyelashes and stuff. I'm going to show you for it to work. Yeah, I do need to see this. I was like, is the bomb going off? Yeah, yeah.
Were you nervous to put that out, though? Was I nervous? No, I think it was cool. I was psyched. I was psyched. Because, like, at that point, like, yeah, Charlie had, like, we'd, like, totally, like, talked about everything. And, you know, it was all good. And it felt cool. I was like, this is awesome. And it was such a sick, like, just a dream to get, like, invited into Brat. Like, it was just the moment. And, yeah.
Yeah, to be like, like my name was called. Yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm coming. I loved it. It was amazing. What was your brat summer like? Well, I was in London quite a lot. And then I was in New York and then here, just in the studio. I had really bad acne. So that was a bummer.
I was like kissing a lot and eating a lot of fruit and just like listening to my demos and stressing out about the album. That was my brat summer. And like hanging with Charlie and stuff. That's amazing. Yeah. What was yours? My brat summer. I was, um, I was partying a lot. Okay. Like all I was traveling. I was partying, um,
I was like, I was like, just like, like, you know, like I felt like very free to like experiment. It was like my summer of yes. It was like my summer of like, Oh, I'm going to say yes to this. I'm going to say yes to this. So cool. And then I want to take, and then what I was saying was like, I want to take that from this, that summer, bring it to this summer. That's what I want to do. The album is, the album will help you. I'm so excited. I really am so, Oh my God. It's like, I,
I love feeling like I can't fucking wait. And like, I literally can't fucking wait. Like, I like don't know what to do about it. I was like, but it comes out. Um, it's so, it's so like kismet and perfect. It comes out on like one of, I'm doing, um, radio city for my, for this. I know. That's insane. On the day this album comes out. Oh my God. So I'm going to listen to it like all day.
All day. I already know I'm going to wake the fuck up just blasting it. Oh my God, that's so amazing. It's perfect. It couldn't be more perfect. Radio City, Jake, that's insane. I know, I'm really excited. That's a moment. I know. How is the tour? It's great. It's hard when I don't feel like I did a good job. Oh yeah. Like, you know, I mean like, it's just like,
And like sometimes like if I can't fill a room completely, like I'll look at an empty seat or like if I see somebody leave a little early. I'm like totally I get it. Like you have to leave like I've left early before, too. But it's just like it's moments like that where it's like it feels like like a shot. Like it's like, oh, my God. And because you're like you're essentially like dancing on stage for everybody to like look at and laugh or like enjoy and feel. And then like if you feel in that moment that you're not entertaining someone, it's like
So it's like I have like the highest highs and then I have like really low lows. How is touring for you? Do you like touring? I love touring, yeah. And it was like a journey getting there. But wait, I'm still thinking about your... Oh, okay. Because I see the parallel between your like intimacy and... Oh, you do? Entertaining people and feeling this like pressure to entertain and then feeling like it's so vulnerable when...
someone maybe doesn't receive yes yeah like there's something there's some similarity here but I also think like because have you toured is this have you toured much before this is my second tour so I toured for the first time uh this past fall okay and now I'm doing the second tour and I'm a lot better at it than I was the first round I'm a lot more comfortable sharing parts of my life I'm a lot more comfortable talking to the audience I'm a lot just like a lot more comfortable on stage I'm not I don't I'm not scared anymore but
But I do have those moments when I see an empty seat. I always think like, oh my God, does everybody else around that seat think about how that seat is empty? Have you ever had that before? For melodrama, I...
booked an arena tour and like a lot of those shows were like half full. Really? And we had made this beautiful production and just like, there were some nights where I was like, this is awkward. And people were kind of like writing about it at the time. It was so vulnerable for me and I didn't book. This is my first arena show since then because I had like such damage from like that feeling that you're talking about. People don't think about the fact that
the person on stage whose name is on the banner is looking at every single, like you say, someone walking out, someone, yeah, some seat not being full. It's so vulnerable. I completely understand. It's just like, and melodrama was such like a vulnerable album. You're like literally like laying everything there. Look over and there's just like these massive drapes covering the empty space.
You know, the worst is when I ask like, wait, so what's how many did we sell? And they'll tell me and they'll be like, and I'll be like, OK, but what's the cap? And I'll be like, well, we scaled it. So like, yeah, I'm like, what does that mean? And then I'll look up and it's like they blacked out. Yeah, the little drape. And I'm like, I just have to you have to just be like, oh, my God, it's insane how many people are here. Yeah, it's incredible. It's so amazing.
People are paying money to come and see it. It's a weird feeling. It's so amazing. It's incredible. And they love it and they're not going to
They don't ever think you did a bad job. Like, it's just a mate. They love it. You know, you couldn't do a bad job. Oh, I really want you to see one of my shows if you're ever around. I want to come. I want to come. I'm keen. I know. I love to laugh. I think you will laugh. I talk a lot about, like, my childhood. It's funny. It's funny. What are you most excited about for your tour? I'm so excited for my tour.
I'm still in complete fucking disbelief that it sold out. Like, I can't believe it. I feel so grateful. Like, I've just cried. Oh, yesterday I was crying. So moved. I'm psyched. I actually love building a show. It's like, yeah, one of my favorite things about my music is translating it live. This music is really physical, and I think it's just –
gonna be its full self how fun we tour yeah we tour it's amazing like that's incredible it's pretty like I'm on tour I can't I'm going on tour do you bus it do you take the bus around I bus yeah do you yeah I love the bus it's so cute I love the bus do you have your own sheets yeah yeah okay good yeah do you use the shower I used it once
And I used it once in the shower, like, spurted in my face, like, across my entire, everything in my room. And I was like, I can't do that again. I use the showers at the venues all the time. Nice. Yeah. It's kind of crazy to shower on the bus, but I do. Do you really? I shower, and I'll shower on the moving bus. What? Just, like, holding on. Yeah. No, no, no. I will fully shower. Do you feel like you get- Driving down the highway. Good sleeps on the bus? I do. But I think tour is, like, just, like, how good is your sleep, you know?
That's what I said. Yeah. You're also like, so after you like leave and if it's a good show, you're like, so like on awake. No, totally. How do you like bring it down? I take like Advil PM. Oh, I literally take like Advil PM or Benadryl or like a Gabapentin and like, yeah, I'll like fall asleep. No. Yeah. It's the only way to go. Yeah. No, totally. I feel that. Yeah. How do you calm down after I smoke weed? Yeah. I,
Did you ever go through a period with smoking weed where you didn't smoke for a while? So, okay, the thing about me is that I, like right now, I probably last smoked like three weeks ago. And before that, probably two or three weeks before that. Like I actually really, I would never smoke more than like twice a week. Like if I smoked three times in a week, I'd be like, whoa, girl, you need to chill. I find weed to be like incredibly...
like, inspiring, kind of, like, world-opening thing. Like, I'm never smoking weed and just sitting at home. I'm going out for, like, a two-hour walk. I'm, like, in the sun. Like, I don't even smoke weed on, like, a rainy or cloudy day. Like, it's, like, a very, like, like, the sun shining, like, let's go. So I am, like, lucky, like, I've never, it's never gotten to a place where I felt like, I think people probably think I smoke way more weed than I do, but I, like,
Really like, and especially like in a moment, like right now I have to be careful. I'm like, I spoke the other day and I was like, sis, the portal is open. Put that away. The next day I felt so bad. And we were actually editing the, what was that video? And yeah.
Yeah, it was just like, Terry, this is a disaster. We made a huge mistake. I was working with Terry. It's incredible. Yeah. It was so, so fun to make that video together and just like shoot it on his phone. That's crazy that you shot the whole thing on. On a phone. And you shot it that day in the Washington Square Park thing, right? And we went to the edit that night and we were at the edit till three and then we put it out the next day. That's insane. Yeah, it's fun. That's incredible. Yeah.
Oh my God. I'm trying to think. I'm like, so. Yeah, what else have you got for me? I know. I feel like I just, because I knew this was going to happen to me where it's like, I feel like I've known you my whole life and then I have all these things I want to say and then you're right here and now it's like. You're killing it. This is perfect. Really? Yes, of course. Are you guys having fun? Yeah.
Okay, cool. Because I'm going to freak out about this for the next two weeks. So, like, respectfully, I'm going to be like, was this fine? Like, I'm honestly curious. Do you ever go back and, like, listen to your old work and think, like, I wish I could tell this version of me like this? Like, if you ever, like, listen to Pure Heroine and you're like, I wish at the time the Lord then knew this that I know now. Wow. Yeah.
I don't really listen to my own music. But on tour, when you are listening to it, you know, every night, I feel like I'm like, wow, you're really going through this thing, you know. But I feel like every album is just sort of that. Like I'm just trying to talk to a version of myself who is vulnerable in that moment and like needs to hear from someone
herself yeah I don't know but yeah no for sure I mean uh it's so it is so funny having this like record of like all of your vulnerabilities and like you know like certain songs come from a place of like like liability was so it was like I was like triggered basically yeah it's like oh and like being hit in that place like made me write that song and I look back on that now and I'm like
You know, it's like a foundational feeling for me being like, okay, I'm going to, this is the bit of myself that I'm going to reveal that's going to be too much. Like that feeling just keeps, you never like lose that fear. But you try and make something that is like a balm or, you know, that makes you feel like, no, no, it's okay to be.
myself to the fullest you know the public journal yeah it really it really is a public journal do you have like a like a favorite memory over these past however many years like in the studio when you like create like because it reminded me when I watched that video of you getting the drums right for uh what was that I was like do you have do you have any other moments like that where you remember feeling like this like explosion of like we we did it we just did that we said it
I had that actually when we wrote Team. I was like, what? Because it is so like, this is, yeah, it is just the amazing thing about pop music is it's just so, yeah, you just like get the catharsis in this crazy way. Like I heard that chorus and I was like, this works on me. This is doing something so amazing. And I don't know, I was proud. Lord. Well,
Do I call you Ella? Ella, yeah. Ella, okay. Because I was meaning to ask that the entire time and now I'm just... Thank you so much for being here and doing this with me. I cannot tell you how grateful I am. Before I let you go, what did we learn today? We learned to celebrate ourselves. We learned to, I don't know, enjoy the little things. We learned to...
that it's cool to be vulnerable and that that's where the magic is. And I really want you to do a lot of kissing. That's what I want. I think, I think I'm... That's what I'm taking away from this. I'm going to be checking in. If I can get your number after this, I'm going to text you every time I hook up with someone. Great, great. Just letting you know. Any excuse to text you. I think I learned...
God, no, I just had it. And now I just blinked because I think I got excited to get your number. But I think I learned...
I learned to listen to your body. That's what I learned. I learned that it's important to listen to your body. Well, Ella, thank you for coming on Therapus. I adore you. I'm such a huge fan. And this is like the coolest thing that ever happened to me. Thank you so much for having me. Do you want to give a little bye pussies? Bye pussies.