Disappearance at the Vatican: The Orlandi Case
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Due to the nature of this episode, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of kidnapping, murder, suicide, and assault. Consider this when deciding how and when you'll listen. Vatican City. It's the world's smallest independent country, just 100 acres or so in size, making it smaller than the National Mall in DC.

Still, millions of visitors pass through each year to see the Sistine Chapel, St. Peter's Basilica, and the residence of the Pope. As you walk to the entrance, you are far from the bustling narrow streets lined with restaurants and gelaterias. The giant walls that encircle the Papal State are more than remnants of time where sieges were more common. They're barriers between the spiritual and secular worlds.

Those walls are part of what made the Orlandi family feel like they were living in the safest place on Earth. That was until their 15-year-old daughter, Emanuela, disappeared. More than 40 years later, she remains the only Vatican citizen to ever go missing. To this day, her family still wonders which side of the Vatican walls did she end up on?

Welcome to Conspiracy Theories, a Spotify podcast. I'm Carter Roy. You can find us here every Wednesday. Check us out on Instagram at TheConspiracyPod. And we would love to hear from you. So if you're listening on the Spotify app, swipe up and give us your thoughts. Also, be sure to stick around for the end of the episode to hear a special conversation with the director of The First Omen, Arkasha Stevenson.

Today, we're covering the 1983 disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi and the many conspiracy theories surrounding this unsolved case. They can't all be true, but those closest to the story believe each one of these theories contains a shred of truth. Stay with us.

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This special episode of Conspiracy Theories is presented by The First Omen in theaters on April 5th. In this prequel to the classic 1976 horror film The Omen, an American woman named Margaret goes to Rome to take on a life of service for the church. When she meets a troubled young girl who needs her help, Margaret believes she's finally found her calling.

But soon she realizes there's something unholy going on within the church. A vast conspiracy to bring about the end of the world. I am really excited for this one because I am a huge fan, well, of horror movies in general. But I especially love groundbreaking 70s horror films like The Omen that shape the genre as we know it.

And The Omen is iconic. It pioneered the blending of horror and mystery, and its influence on religious conspiracy stories cannot be overstated. All these years later, the Omen franchise still has a way of getting under the skin like few other movies can. I mean, to this day, parents think twice about naming their babies "Damien." But there's one major question these films never got to answer.

How was Damien, the Antichrist, born? And that is why I'm so excited about the first Omen. In case it's been a while since you've seen the original film, we do know a few terrifying details about his birth.

But there's still so much we have to learn in the first Omen. And because talking about conspiracy theories is, you know, kind of my thing, I'm especially curious to find out more about the Omen's nefarious forces hiding within the church. But religious conspiracy theories aren't only found in great horror stories. They also exist in the real world and are as old as organized religion itself. Now, back to our story.

It's the 1980s. For the last decade and a half or so, Italy has been overwhelmed with political terrorism, kidnappings, murder, and rampant bombings. They call this period the Years of Lead. At one point, an Italian extremist group abducts and murders the former Prime Minister Aldo Moro.

His kidnapping, which we've covered on a previous episode, solidifies what many Italians fear at the time: no one is safe. Sadly, Moro's execution doesn't inspire government action. Life in Italy only becomes more chaotic as these events play out on TV screens and across neighborhoods. People start to wonder if this is what's happening in plain sight.

What's happening behind closed doors? This is the Italy that Emanuela Orlandi grows up in. Violent and unrelenting. Except for one small enclave inside Rome, almost untouched by turmoil. It's a separate country within the borders of Italy, ruled by the Pope.

You can only become a citizen if you work there or if you're related to someone who does. There are very few Vatican citizens who are not church officials, and that includes the Orlandi family. Emanuela's father, Ercole, works as a clerk, handling the Pope's meeting calendar. His wife and five children enjoy a peaceful, almost idyllic life, an arm's length away from the years of lead.

That is, until 1981, when the unrest in Italy finally creeps over the Vatican's walls. Around that time, the Vatican supposedly receives a warning about a potential kidnapping on the grounds. It has the church on edge for months. But while they're waiting for this ticking time bomb to blow, something else begins making its way across St. Peter's Square. Pop music.

Artists like Michael Jackson and Italian icon Claudio Baglioni flood the airwaves. Which brings us to June 22nd, 1983. That morning, Emanuela begs her mother Maria to make a special dinner for later: pizza. Maria agrees, but only if Emanuela shops for the ingredients. The teenager is happy to oblige and spends the afternoon at the grocery store.

After she brings the supplies home, she practices the flute. Emanuela gets so into her music that she loses track of time. And before she knows it, she's late for class. Her lessons are held in a school near Piazza Navona, a public square just a couple miles outside Vatican City. Emanuela asks her older brother, Pietro, to take her to class. Usually he'd happily give her a ride. He loves flaunting his new motorcycle.

But today, his answer is a firm no. He's got a date with his girlfriend and doesn't want to risk being late to do his little sister a favor. Plus, it's a really hot summer day. Emanuela heads to Piazza Navona. She had made plans with her younger sister, 12-year-old Christina, to meet up nearby around 7:00 PM. Then she arrives at her flute lesson half an hour late.

After lessons, Emanuela walks across the piazza where a classmate sees her near the bus stop. When the bus arrives, the classmate hops on and Emanuela continues on to pick up Christina. At least that's her intention. But she apparently gets sidetracked. Sometime before 7 p.m.,

Emanuela calls home. She tells her older sister, Frederica, that a man approached her with this great opportunity. He wants to hire her to advertise Avon products. He's even going to pay her over $200. Frederica knows right away that it's a scam. She tells Emanuela not to accept any cash until she speaks with their parents during dinner. And that's basically the end of their conversation.

Dinner at the Orlandi household is served at 8 p.m., but that night when the family gathers, Cristina and Emanuela are running late. Around 8:10 p.m., their mother Maria starts to worry. She knows something's wrong. Her husband Ercole tries to quell her fears. He points out that it's summer, the sun's still out, and their daughters probably lost track of time.

But with every passing minute, Ercole becomes less and less sure. Finally, Christina comes home, alone. She says she waited for Emanuela at their meeting point for about half an hour. Then she walked to the music school, but Emanuela wasn't there. She doesn't know where her sister is.

The Orlandis spring into action. Emanuela's parents rush over to the music school just to double check, while their eldest daughters call the local hospitals. Pietro rides his motorbike up and down the streets, desperately looking for his sister. But there's no sign of Emanuela anywhere. Later that night, Ercole and Pietro go to the local police station in Rome to report her missing.

They emphasize to the on-duty officer that Emanuela is a minor and a citizen of the Vatican. They explain she was last seen in the busy Piazza Navona. But the officer doesn't seem to care. Emanuela's a teenage girl. He thinks she's probably hanging out late with her friends.

He says something along the lines of, "Do you know how many little girls go missing in the summer? Get some sleep and everything will be resolved tomorrow." For now, it doesn't seem like the Italian police are going to be an immediate help. So the Orlandi family turns to the highest power they know, the Holy See, or the governing body of the Catholic Church. Now, not everyone would turn to the Vatican for answers.

It's no secret that it has a reputation for being clandestine. But the Orlandi family is on good terms with the Holy See. Their family has served multiple popes over the course of decades. So on June 23rd, Ercole reports his daughter missing to the Vatican police. Eventually, the news makes it to Vatican officials, including high-ranking clergy and Pope John Paul II. But for reasons that are still unclear,

They don't offer any immediate help. Emanuela's family isn't going to sit around, though, waiting. Pietro tracks down two Italian officers who recall seeing Emanuela near the Piazza Navona. They say they saw her talk with a 35- to 40-year-old man in a green BMW with a bag of Avon products. The police and the family follow these leads, but they arrive at dead ends.

Meanwhile, several relatives arrive to help search for Emanuela. Her uncle Mario sends a brief statement to an Italian newspaper called Il Tempo titled Who Has Seen Emanuela? The article gives Emanuela's physical description and includes a phone number to call.

The following day, on June 24th, two other newspapers pick up the story, and back in Vatican City, the Orlandis wait by the phone, wondering if anyone will call. Soon, they'll receive several phone calls with startling information, and one of those calls turns a case of a missing teenage girl into an international conspiracy.

Our sponsor today is The First Omen, coming out in theaters next week. One thing I can tell you about The First Omen is that we're going to get more backstory on one of the most intriguing characters from the franchise, Father Brennan. He's the one who attempts to warn Robert Thorne about his son Damien's true nature, and he pays for it with his life in an unforgettable scene.

Now, I've always wondered how Father Brennan knows so much about Damian, or why he can foretell the terrible things that will come to pass before they happen. The first omen takes us into the heart of the Vatican to learn how Father Brennan comes to possess this knowledge and to bear witness to the origin of evil. Unfortunately, not everybody finds answers beyond the walls of the Vatican.

And now back to the story of Emanuela Orlandi. On June 25th, 1983, three days after Emanuela disappeared, the Orlandi family gets a call from a young man named Pierluigi. He says that he recently visited Campo dei Fiori, another square near Piazza Navona. Pierluigi and his girlfriend came across a girl selling Avon products. He says she introduced herself as Barbara,

and he noticed the girl had a flute with her. It's precisely the type of call that the Orlandes had been hoping for. They rush to Campo dei Fiori and search every inch of the market, but they don't find any sign of Barbara or Emanuela. The next day, two agents from the Italian Secret Service install a recording device on the Orlandes' phone.

On June 28th, they get another call from a man calling himself Mario, who also claims he spoke to a girl who looked like Emanuela. He says she was selling perfume and other items and went by the name Barbara or Barbarella. As they chatted, she told Mario that she had an upcoming performance. She was scheduled to sing in it, not play the flute. The Orlandis are stunned.

That information hasn't been published anywhere. When their hopeful Mario really did speak to Emanuela directly, she must still be in Rome. They just need to find her. Within a week, Pietro and his friends plaster 3,000 missing person posters around the city. When all is said and done, her face is everywhere. And Emanuela's disappearance adds to the unrest in Italy.

Inside the Vatican, families take safety precautions with their children, fearing they could meet the same fate. And just when it seems the investigation is stalling out, the Vatican's most prominent figure gets involved: the Holy Father. On July 3rd, during his usual Sunday address,

Pope John Paul II mentions Emanuela's case. And then he appeals to Emanuela's kidnappers to release her. It's unclear why the Pope involves himself. Maybe he took notice of the public's panic and wanted to quell their fears. Or he just felt called to help. But the announcement is huge. It's the Vatican's first acknowledgement that Emanuela was kidnapped.

Meanwhile, the Italian police still seem to believe she voluntarily left and will return. At any rate, after the Pope addresses the case, the Orlandis receive the most compelling tip yet. They get a call from a man who doesn't give his name. He speaks in Italian, but with a foreign accent. He eventually becomes known as the American Pope.

He claims that Mario and Pierluigi are members of his organization, which is important because at this point their role in the case has not been released to the public. So this statement earns the caller some credibility, which is why the family believes the American when he says, "Hey, Manuela is now their captive." And to prove it,

He plays a looped recording of a young girl talking about entering her third year of high school. The family is absolutely certain it's Emanuela. The American says the group will release her, but only in exchange for the freedom of a prisoner, Mehmet Ali Aca, a member of the Turkish extremist group, the Gray Wolves.

Okay, now during the years of lead, quid pro quo kidnappings were relatively common. Terrorist groups would often take a hostage, then demand a swap for one of their own. The problem in this case is that Mehmet Ali Aja is in prison for trying to assassinate Pope John Paul II.

It's unclear if Emanuela's alleged kidnappers are part of the Gray Wolves, who might want Aja's freedom, or if they're from some other organization that wants to control him. While imprisoned, Aja makes some confusing claims, like he was trained by the KGB, and the assassination wasn't ordered by the Gray Wolves, but by some Bulgarian group.

The American gives a deadline for this swap: July 20th, 15 days. At first, the Orlandese are grateful. This means Emanuela is alive. But then another creeping thought takes over. Their little girl's life depends on the release of one of the most notorious criminals in Italy. Emanuela's father Ercole asks what they should do next.

The American says officials will get in touch and he hopes things work out. The next day, Ercole approaches Dino Monduzzi, the Pope's household leader. Ercole asks Dino if the Vatican heard anything from the kidnapper. Dino says he personally didn't, but he'll ask around. Later that day, Dino goes to the office of the Vatican's substitute secretary of state.

But the head of staff says he never received such a call. Dino's been working in the Vatican for many years. He knows when something unusual is happening. And right now, he's getting that sense. He presses for more. Is he sure the Vatican didn't get a phone call from Emanuela's kidnappers?

Well, after some prodding, the staffer finally admits that a weird phone call did come in the other day, but he adds the information given was vague and they were unsure what to do with it. But Emanuela Orlandi's case is getting harder for Vatican officials to dismiss. Ever since Aja became a part of the story, Emanuela's name has been popping up in headlines all over the world.

Even CBS News in the US covers her story. And now, the kidnappers are making demands of them directly. So, in a surprising turn, Vatican officials decide to set up a phone line with the kidnappers. They designate a lawyer to speak with Emanuela's alleged abductors. But for whatever reason, they don't seem to share any information from these calls with the investigation at large.

As the deadline for freeing Aja approaches, the American tells the Associated Press in Italy that he can prove he has a Manuela. "Just look in one of the trash cans near the Italian Parliament building," he says. An editor of the Newswire rushes to Parliament Square, a bustling piazza located about a half mile from Piazza Navona. When he arrives, he digs through the garbage bins. Eventually,

He finds a yellow envelope that contains a copy of Emanuela's music school ID and a handwritten note. It reads, With so much love, your Emanuela. The editor shows the note to the Orlandis, who confirm that it's their daughter's handwriting. For the Orlandis, the clock is ticking, and then time runs out. The American places a call on July 20th,

saying there are mere hours left to meet his group's demands and save Emanuela. But Adja isn't freed. Decades later, the question remains whether the American was telling the truth. In February 1985, Italy's state TV network, RAI, interviews Mehmet Ali Adja. He tells a journalist,

Of course she was kidnapped for my freedom. She is alive. She is not in danger. And I would like Emanuela Orlandi to be freed without conditions. He seems confident in his assertions, but it soon becomes clear that it's all guesswork. He admits that he's not entirely sure Emanuela's alive. He's just making, quote, some logical deductions.

The lead burns out pretty quick, and many suspect Adja's just using Emanuela's case for publicity. In later letters, he reportedly claimed that Emanuela was whisked away to a royal palace in Liechtenstein. In 2010, he changed his story again, saying she's living as a nun in a Catholic monastery and that her relatives visit from time to time.

In the docu-series Vatican Girl, journalist Andrea Purgatori points out that Pierluigi and Mario sound like native Italians, but at the time, nobody knew of any gray wolves operating in Italy. Others think the abduction just didn't seem like something the highly organized KGB would attempt to pull off. By the end of 1983,

Emanuela Orlandi's disappearance remains unsolved. The American stops calling. The Orlandi family doesn't lose faith they will see Emanuela again, and yet the case grows cold. For years. But in Emanuela's story, anytime one conspiracy gets debunked, another is quick to take its place. Fast forward about 34 years. It's 2017.

and a five-page document surfaces. Its title? A summary of expenses sustained by Vatican City State for the activities related to citizen Emanuela Orlandi. It appears to list expenses from an investigation. That in itself is pretty strange. According to Pietro, the Vatican repeatedly said they weren't handling the official search because it happened in Rome. But that's not all.

The document also lists items like travel, food, and accommodations in London, as well as gynecological care. The accounting ends in 1997 with transportation to the Vatican, which leads some to believe these charges were for the care of Emanuela up until her death, and that she was then returned to Vatican City.

In 2019, the Vatican actually allowed a pair of tombs to be opened in one of their cemeteries to prove Emanuela was not buried there. Now, let's be clear, the Vatican has called the document an outright fake. Even the journalist who received it isn't sure it's real.

However, the expenses are reportedly just one of several documents stolen from a Vatican office in 2014. And this is true. Somebody really broke into a locked cabinet, removed official papers, and later returned some of them anonymously. We don't know what information those documents contained, and we don't know if these expenses were part of that break-in or somebody's idea of a cruel joke.

As with every turning point in Emanuela Orlandi's case, this one leaves us with more questions and no certain answers. However, there is one big looming question that these theories haven't addressed, and that is why Emanuela? Well, the next person to step forward in an attempt to solve the case offered a theory that might just answer that.

Today's episode is sponsored by The First Omen, a brand new film in the Omen franchise. A young American woman named Margaret moves to Rome to work in a Vatican orphanage and discovers a host of sinister secrets lurking within the church.

Horror fans will love this ode to the mythology of the Omen franchise. But the great thing is that this movie totally stands on its own, too. You don't have to know the previous films in order to appreciate this one. It's a beautifully shot film with an up-and-coming director named Arkasha Stevenson at the helm. There is just something about a horror movie that unlocks parts of my conspiratorial mind.

On this show, we routinely deal with rumors and mythology. When I sit down to watch a movie about an organization as mysterious as the Vatican, well, I always wonder just how much truth is hidden in the details. I already have my ticket for the first Omen coming out in theaters on April 5th.

For me, nothing beats that communal movie-going experience sitting in a darkened room and facing something uniquely terrifying altogether, without distractions. Now, back to our story. The theories surrounding Emanuela Orlandi's disappearance are probably too numerous to count. Very few of them, however, explain why Emanuela was chosen by her abductors.

I mean, if this was about the release of an infamous prisoner, it's unclear why anyone would choose a teenage girl. But someone close to A. Manuela believes her friend was personally targeted. In 2022, one of A. Manuela's close childhood friends appeared in the docuseries Vatican Girl.

She said Emanuela confided in her just days before her disappearance about an incident that happened inside Vatican walls. The friend alleged that while out on a walk, Emanuela was approached by a church official who "bothered her." She interpreted this term "bothered" to mean that sexual advances were made.

No names are given, so it's impossible to verify any of this. It's also one of the most simplistic theories. Whereas our next theory is the opposite of simplistic, although some believe it makes the most sense. In 2005, an anonymous caller phones into an Italian TV show called "Who Has Seen This Person?" about cold cases, disappearances, and unsolved mysteries.

He says, "To figure out what happened to Emanuela Orlandi, go take a look at who's buried in the Basilica of Sant'Apollinare." And he mentions someone named Renatino. This particular basilica is an important Roman Catholic church owned by the Holy See. It's where many Vatican officials and clergy are entombed.

And coincidentally enough, it's also next door to Emanuela's music school. After the anonymous phone call, it comes to light that there's another pretty famous person buried there, Enrico Renatino de Pettis. It was a name everyone in the area knew well. Up until his death in 1990, he had been one of the most powerful mobsters in Rome.

But it wasn't clear why he'd been given such a revered burial spot or what he allegedly had to do with Emanuela's disappearance. Then a witness came forward, claiming both answers were intertwined and that someone inside the Vatican knew all about it. In the 1970s and 80s, Enrico de Pettis was a leader of the Banda de la Meliana, a large crime gang in Rome.

They were involved in the typical mob transgressions like money laundering and drugs, but they also had their hands in several key political and financial events during the Years of Lead, including neo-fascist bombings and the kidnapping of former Prime Minister Aldo Moro. When it was revealed that Enrico was buried in a sacred Roman basilica,

Catholics were furious. They wanted to know how the church allowed this to happen. And the Vatican claimed it was because he donated large sums of money and helped the poor. But the public and the press drew their own conclusions. And some believe the real answer was connected to the mysterious death of a man named Roberto Calvi in 1982.

Roberto Calvi was head of Banco Ambrosiano, a major private bank in Italy. It had close ties to the Vatican, and Calvi had been dubbed "God's Banker," although the Vatican actually has its own bank. At the time, that bank was headed up by an American archbishop named Paul Marcinkus. Calvi's bank collapsed in June of 1982.

revealing that he'd been using offshore subsidiaries to move money around illegally. And his bank was now well over a billion dollars in debt. That same month, Calvey's body was found in London. His death was initially ruled a suicide, but not everybody believed that conclusion because of certain details in this case. Like the fact that Calvey was found with multiple forms of currency in his pockets.

Conspiracies abounded that Calvi's death looked like an organized crime hit. Years later, forensic experts said Calvi was indeed murdered. But the perpetrators have never been convicted. As for the banking fiasco, it remains unclear just how involved Archbishop Marcinkas and the Vatican were in Calvi's illegal maneuvers and whether or not they benefited.

Marcinkus was indicted in the case, but ultimately, charges were dropped due to the Vatican lying outside Italy's jurisdiction. The Vatican has denied any wrongdoing in the Banco Ambrosiano case. However, this conspiracy theory suggests that Enrico de Pettis and the Banda della Magliana may have felt that the Vatican owed them money.

In 2011, one of Enrico's former associates, Antonio Mancini, gives an interview with the Italian newspaper La Stampa. The former gangster says that in the 1980s, Banda lent the Vatican a large sum of money through Roberto Calvi's bank. After Calvi's bank failed, the Vatican never repaid them. But what did all this have to do with Emanuela Orlandi?

In 2008, Enrico De Peti's former lover, Sabrina Minardi, claims that she somewhat unwittingly helped her boyfriend pull off Emanuela's abduction. Sabrina tells officials that three of Enrico's men followed Emanuela in the days before she was kidnapped.

After she was taken, Emanuela was kept at Sabrina's family's home for a few days before moving to another apartment building. After investigators hear this news, Rome prosecutor Giancarlo Capaldo questions Emanuela's former classmates about men who may have been following her. He shows them over 100 photos and surprisingly, most of them recognize three men specifically.

the gang members Sabrina named. Giancarlo also learns that Enrico's gang did use an apartment in the building Sabrina named. But while Giancarlo suspects hostages were kept there at some point, there's no proof Emanuela was ever among them. Sabrina says she last saw Emanuela when she drove her to a gas station inside Vatican City.

There, she handed Emanuela over to a man driving a black Mercedes. He was dressed as a priest. Of course, it's unclear if he was an actual Catholic official. It doesn't seem like Sabrina was ever given a clear motive for the kidnapping, except that it was some kind of power game. She was kept in the dark about a lot of the details.

According to Enrico's old associate, Antonio Mancini, Emanuela was used as a pawn to recoup money from the Vatican. But Enrico never got all of his money back, so he eventually struck a deal with Vatican officials. And this is where the conspiracy theory about his crypt comes into play. Upon his death, Enrico wanted to be buried in Santa Polinare Basilica,

After he was murdered in 1990, he got his wish. Notorious mobster Enrico de Pettis was buried in the church's crypt in an expensive tomb that had his name encrusted with diamonds. Years later, rumors spring up that Emanuela could possibly be buried with Enrico. Others think his burial site is proof he kidnapped Emanuela.

Emanuela's older brother Pietro has since demanded to know everything about why Enrico was buried in the Basilica and whether his sister had anything to do with it. On January 21st, 2012, almost 30 years after Emanuela was taken, Pietro leads a demonstration outside the Santa Polinare Basilica in Rome. He speaks passionately while holding a black and white photo of his sister.

He tells the crowd. "Enrico's burial is the junction of a conspiratorial bond between state, church, and crime that took Emanuela away 28 years ago." Pietro and the Italian public apply so much pressure that the Vatican eventually grants police permission to exhume Enrico's body. On May 13th, 2012, nearly three decades after Emanuela disappeared,

Giancarlo Capaldo's investigative team opens Enrico's tomb. While they find only one skeleton in his tomb, they discover the remains of dozens of other people nearby. The team spends the next year performing DNA tests on the bones. When the results come back, one set definitely belongs to Enrico, but none of them are Emanuela.

It's been over four decades, and Emanuela's remains have yet to be found. This has given the Orlandi family some hope that she may be alive. Pietro Orlandi acts as the case's de facto spokesperson, as well as an advocate for other missing people. To this day, Pietro holds the Vatican accountable for his sister's disappearance. He recalls an encounter with Pope Francis shortly after his election.

when the head of the Vatican said to him, "Emanuela is in heaven." Surely he was trying to be kind, but Pietro voiced his hope anyway that his sister is still alive. The Pope reportedly repeated to him, "Emanuela is in heaven." The Vatican announces in January 2023 that it's embarking on a new investigation into Emanuela's disappearance.

Six months later, Vatican prosecutor Alessandro Didi announces he has uncovered a few leads and is handing over evidence to Roman investigators. It's the first time Vatican and Italian authorities have publicly worked together on the case, and the Italian government is also launching a new inquiry. Finally, Emanuela is getting the attention she deserves.

Hopefully, this cooperation will lead to long-awaited answers and justice for Emanuela. Thank you for listening to Conspiracy Theories, a Spotify podcast. Don't forget to stick around after the credits for a special conversation with the director of The First Omen, Arkasha Stevenson.

Conspiracy Theories is here with a new episode every Wednesday. Check us out on Instagram at The Conspiracy Pod. For more information on the case of Emanuela Orlandi, we found Il Segreto di Emanuela Orlandi by Pino Nazio and the Netflix docuseries Vatican Girl, extremely helpful to our research. Do you have a personal relationship to the stories we tell?

Send a short audio recording telling your story to conspiracystories at spotify.com. Until next time, remember, the truth isn't always the best story. And the official story isn't always the truth.

Conspiracy Theories is a Spotify podcast. This episode was written by Mallory Cara, edited by Amber Hurley and Aaron Lan, researched and edited by Mickey Taylor, fact-checked by Adriana Romero, and sound designed by Alex Button.

Our head of programming is Julian Boirot. Our head of production is Nick Johnson. Spencer Howard is our post-production supervisor. And I'm your host, Carter Roy. And now, our interview with Arkasha Stevenson. Welcome back to Conspiracy Theories. I'm Julian Boirot, longtime producer slash conspiracy theorist behind the scenes.

Of course, we chose to cover a complex Vatican conspiracy this week to prepare you for an upcoming movie the entire Conspiracy Theories team is excited about: The First Omen. On this show, we've covered our fair share of Vatican-related mysteries. We did an entire four-part series on the Papal City-State in April 2021. The First Omen, out April 5th, is also a conspiratorial tale.

As we all know, the franchise centers around Satan's plot to take earthly power through his unholy spawn, Damian.

And now, we're so excited to welcome the movie's director, Arkasha Stevenson. Thanks for joining us and congratulations on your feature directorial debut. Thanks. Thanks for having me. The Omen appears on just about any classic horror movie list you can find. You've worked in horror before on shows like Channel Zero. What interested you in exploring the genre? You know, I was first introduced to the genre

to horror films at a very young age. I used to watch that. I don't know if you ever remember this as a kid on A&E for Valentine's Day, they would always show The Shining and The Exorcist for those of us who did not have dates, which might've been me. So I was always watching these horror films on A&E, which is normally you get your history information from A&E. And so I wasn't watching these films through the filter of horror. I was just like, this is

what happens in life. And so that I think that really framed my idea of what horror was and how I wanted to approach horror, which is drama first and characters first, you know, and that that's, I think, why the original Omen is on everybody's list still to this day is because it's not presented as a horror film. It's presented as, you know, this very grounded drama about this family that

Sorry, that's a really long-winded way to answer your question. But basically, I think everything's horror. So it's very easy for me to delve into the genre. Yeah, it leads quite well into my second question. As horror movies oftentimes depict supernatural events that may seem distant from reality, they do explore real fears and anxieties. Something that stuck out to me in the original Omen was the political cynicism surrounding the

the story as Robert Thorne, who adopts Damien, is a political ambassador who ignores all of these warnings about the true nature of Damien and leads to his downfall as well as everyone around him. So moving forward to today, were there any particular modern themes that you were interested in incorporating into the first Omen?

Well, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think looking at what we were trying to do when we're looking at this film was looking at the original Omen, but also the films made around the original Omen. So, you know, looking at Rosemary's Baby, looking at The Exorcist and, you know, looking at films that

that were all happening in the wake of the Vietnam War and, you know, Exorcist and The Omen were made in the wake of Watergate. So there's a lot of cynicism and a lot of lack of trust in institutions. But then at the same time, all these films are literally

looking at demonic children or wondering what, what the hell is wrong with your children. And, you know, these are all movies that are made during, during the cultural revolution and the counterculture and, you know, people looking at these younger people coming up with these brand new ideas that are threatening tradition and authority. So it's,

people talking about fear of the younger generation, right? And I think just if I'm talking personally about my own take on the first omen, it's right now for me, it's the reverse. You know, it's I'm afraid of my parents' generation and there's a lot of tumult going on. And just specifically my own personal fears have to do with, you know, body autonomy and being female. And we flew out to shoot this film the day the Dodds decision came down.

I do believe that horror is one of the most important genres because it does talk about cultural fears. You know, I think this movie was particularly well-timed for what is going on right now. Thank you. That was really cool learning about the backdrop of what influenced you as you were making the movie. I see a commonality in horror and conspiratorial discourse in terms of looking for people

broad answers towards the nature of evil and some of the more nefarious things that go on in our day-to-day lives.

In horror, you can attribute them, as in this movie, to supernatural forces. In conspiratorial discourse, you look at subversive or clandestine agencies that wield power over us. So I guess my question is, what compels people to look towards these outside influences as we look at why evil or bad things happen?

Do you feel like that provides kind of a feeling of safety for people that, oh, bad things happen because there are greater forces at work here? Of course. I think, I mean, the worst thing, the most destabilizing thing is not having answers or having something happen randomly because that means you have no control over it, right? And that's the most horrific thing, I think, especially for people in modern days to feel totally out of control. We tailor our lives around things

having control over every minute and every moment of it, you know, everything within our environment. But that, and that is, that's interesting just in the sense of what is supernatural and what is not and what's man-made and what is not. And I think the philosophy of our film was that whether or not something supernatural exists, it's really...

a periphery tool that's used by man, you know? Nothing is happening because the devil made people do it. People are summoning the devil to help them do their bidding. And I don't know how much time we have, but I can tell you a story, actually, of how we kind of came up with that philosophy. Yeah, absolutely. It's actually kind of spooky. So I work with my creative partner,

who's also my partner partner, named Tim Smith. And so he and I co-wrote this script together. And we weren't even hired yet, but we were like, okay, this script takes place in Rome. We should go to Rome. We've never been. What's going on over there? And we land and it's early in the morning and it's raining. And we're like, well, I don't know what to do. Let's just go walk. And so we're walking down the street. And then he says, look, and there's this big banner that just says Satan everywhere.

And we were like, oh, this is wonderful. We're in the right spot, you know? Yeah. And we didn't realize this, but it was Dante Aguileri's 750th anniversary since his death. Just perfect timing. And there's this art gallery that we were standing in front of that it was dedicated to all the...

The depictions of the topography of hell, because before Dante, it was all just this, you know, the hell mouth. There wasn't actually like a map or an organization to help.

And so we went in and we were looking at these beautiful tableaus. They had Rodin sculptures of like the gates of hell and then, you know, their Bosch tableaus of hell. And then the second level was depictions of hell on earth. And it was all artwork that was from World War I and World War II and images that were made by survivors of concentration camps. And it was so impactful because it's,

Within a matter of minutes, you were able to see the one-to-one parallels between this artwork. And it really, you really realize like, oh, hell is not, you know, this fantastical place underground. Hell is something that we really conjure and that we create here on earth. And why would somebody do that? And so that was hugely inspirational on how to ground a conspiracy like this. It's very easy to kind of just brush it off as something that's

periphery or too fantastical to even be within our own reality you know as you were walking through rome did you have a chance to visit the vatican as well oh yeah yeah of course i didn't you know go in there handing out the script or anything but they didn't let us in yeah and we we did get to go to the museum and and it's a really i mean it's you know every sunday the the pope

addresses everybody outside the basilica and we got to go see that and it's just absolutely packed and there is such an energy surrounding the place it it is um yeah and it's humbling but also yeah i don't know it was it was strange being there while making this movie the energy and as a fan of history as you walk on to saint peter's square you definitely feel

the centuries of manifestation kind of built up there and it's serving as a monument to this massive organization and belief structure. For me, it definitely left a longstanding impression.

It's really cool that a lot of the filming took place in Italy. I was wondering, what was the experience like, you know, shooting this type of movie in such a place where people have ruminated on kind of the spiritual battle between good and evil? It's really interesting because I think that, you know, there's so much history in Rome, you know, and it's such a...

a beautiful place to be, but it can also become really sinister really quickly. I think just because you're constantly surrounded by so much religious iconography and because there's so much religious artwork everywhere and religious artwork tends to depict a lot of violence and a lot of pain. And so it was this constant reminder of what existed and

in the walls that you're shooting in, you know, and you're walking. And there's also so many excavation sites everywhere we went that people were discovering things, you know, meters and meters down because Rome builds on top of itself, right? You were surrounded by the ghosts of history everywhere you went. And I think it really, you take that in through osmosis, you know, and it's both a,

It was a wonderful place to shoot a horror film. That's for sure. And I don't think there was anybody on the cast and crew that didn't feel that. But it's also a tough place to shoot because of that, you know, because you're essentially shooting in a museum. You want to have the smallest footprint possible. And every location that you shoot at kind of takes on its own character in a way. In terms of the actors and the extras, were there any people who...

maybe believed that possession of this sort could actually happen? Or did you talk about that on set? A little bit. I think, you know, when you agree to do a movie like this, you're accepting that this scenario could exist in reality, which means you're open to that reality, which means you can be inviting that in.

So I think we talked about it, but with a lot of caution and with a lot of understanding that we were, I don't know how to put this, but we were being hosted by this feeling. You know, I don't know if that makes sense at all, but...

But it was something that everybody was very aware of. And, you know, we worked with Sonia Braga, who is just this truly magical person. And she said something that was really interesting. And she said, you know, when you agree to do a film, you're creating a new reality around you and a new world around you. And the film is a byproduct of that. It almost doesn't even matter. It's like almost a trinket that comes out of this world that you create.

And everybody was very open to that idea, you know? So we were kind of trying to be spiritually aware.

When we do research for this show and you look into longstanding, centuries-old practices and read about demons and magic and ritual, there typically are warnings at the beginning of these books about being careful about how you engage with alternate dimensions and alternate ways of thinking because they can

manifest in different ways in terms of your reality. So I think that that's extremely well put. You know, the Vatican stands at the center of many mysteries and conspiracy theories. As I mentioned, we've covered a number of them on this show. What makes Catholicism, religion, or the Vatican in general such a compelling backdrop for the horror genre? Oh, geez.

That's a really interesting question that's hard to answer just because I think that when you look at any kind of religious horror, it's really mining to the core of something that's such a universal question, which is what are the rules of our existence on this planet? And what is evil and what is good and what is heaven and what is hell? And it's something that can become so personal so very quickly.

And looking at religious horror, it's really looking at kind of our worst impulses as humans and having that reflect back upon us. It's a very potent subgenre of horror. I mean, to be totally honest, it threw us through a loop through research. You know, it put us in a very dark place kind of reading about...

how we manifest evil on earth and how, like you talk about, you have to be very delicate when dealing with other realms, right? And other dimensions. And it's like, well, you start reading into history, you start reading into the history of the Vatican, you start reading into the history of Italy, and you start to understand that what we thought was fringe

human emotion and fringe behavior and something that we like to attribute to being supernatural because it's too ugly for us to look at is actually very common and very human. And, um,

Yeah, not that. Sorry, we didn't make a rom-com. So sorry to get so dark. But it is, you know, a lot of this history led us to reading about World War Two and fascism and how they really use terror as a war tactic, which is, you know, you'll see in our film. That's the reason that Damien is born. It's really a war tactic.

Speaking of the reason that Damien was born, there are a lot of really cool questions to explore from The Omen in terms of

What is that group within the clergy who is looking to bring forth the Antichrist? What's the nature of Damien's birth itself? And then what is Satan's ultimate goal? Without spoiling the movie, what were your biggest questions that you wanted to explore in the prequel? Well, I think one of the biggest questions was why

would a sect of the church want to bring about the Antichrist? That's just inherently, you know, not intuitive. And I think that especially after going to Rome and seeing that art exhibit, we were thinking like, well, how do whores like this, like these very historical whores, what are the origins of those? And that's like, that's, you know, like almost a childish question. It's so complicated. You could never answer that. But yeah,

It was interesting getting to look at these images and all of them had to do with the corruption of power. I think a lot of the more modern artwork that depicted hell was all about excess and misusing power and overly zealous ambition, you know. And...

I was reading this book about the origins of horror movies called Wasteland. I don't know if you've heard about this. No, I haven't heard about it. Oh man, you should. I'm like preaching about this book to everybody because I think it's so fantastic because it talks about how everybody's experiences in World War I led to the creation of the horror genre and film. And it talks a lot about how film was used by the fascist party during World War II and how...

There was this pro-Nazi flyer that was passed around and it was first brought to Hitler for him to okay. And the flyer says, through God and terror. And Hitler crossed out God and he said, who needs God when you have terror? And his belief was that people craved horror. And he cited Plato as saying that Plato said that horror and terror is one of the

feelings that the human heart desires. And so that this is like innate in all humans. And, and it was so interesting kind of reading about how terror was almost spiritualized by the Nazi party to, to commit some of the worst horror on earth and how to, how we channeled that into this film was, was like, well, if people are terrified, it's very easy to control them. And that's how, how real grounded horrific acts of violence are.

come about.

With all your answers to these questions, I get more and more excited for our listeners to hear them because of how grounded in history and spiritualism and how much research you did for the movie. I have just one more question for you. So I'd like to thank you so much for all the wonderful details that you were able to share with us today. I'm a big fan of Legion as well and Briarpatch and your work is

spans supernatural mystery, alternate dimensions, obviously telepathy, telekinesis, corruption, conspiracy. Do you have any particular conspiracy theories or mysteries that you find particularly interesting outside of the ones that you had mentioned influencing your work on The First Omen? Oh gosh, that's such a good question. Well, you know what? I'm a huge David Lynch fan.

huge. He's the whole reason I got into film. And before him, I was studying to be a photojournalist. And then I watched a David Lynch film. And somebody had told me David Lynch is a surrealist. And then I watched one of his films. And for me, in that moment, where I was in life, I was thinking like, well, he's not a surrealist. He's a social realist. He's just

exploring realms of the human existence that maybe not everybody sees every day. And that's surrealism to people, you know? And that kind of started me... That kind of really aligned with, I think, a larger feeling that I have is that they're really...

When it comes to mysteries and supernaturalism and surrealism, there's usually a grounded explanation for that in the human heart. There's just so much that we don't understand.

Thank you so much for joining us on Conspiracy Theories. We can't wait to check out the first Omen on April 5th. We'll all be there. I really enjoyed speaking with you. Thanks for taking the time. Oh, yeah. Thanks for listening to me ramble. Thanks for having me on. It was a real pleasure getting to talk to you.