Biden's Health, Vatican Controversy & Chasten Buttigieg On LGBTQ Lit
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Rise and shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm V Spear. And I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream presented by Betches News. The show that is actively choosing to ignore the discourse around that book about Joe Biden. Correct. Leave Joe Biden alone. Joe Biden ain't the president anymore. But we wrote that line before we learned of his...

cancer diagnosis. And we are very sorry about that. We're very sorry to hear that. I often think not just about when it's a celebrity or a major figure that gets some sort of diagnosis or dies or something. I don't always think necessarily just about that person, but about the broader impact it has on the public.

And I think a lot of us have had an experience with an uncle or a brother or dad or somebody who was diagnosed with prostate cancer. And so hearing that Joe Biden had prostate cancer and it was aggressive, it spread to his bones, I think brought up a lot more feelings for me about people.

So I just want to recognize for the audience that like this is a tough one. This is like when somebody gets diagnosed with breast cancer or ovarian cancer, where we just feel like it's such an intimate thing. It's such a difficult thing and it's such an unfortunately common thing. So that's kind of where I went with it.

Yeah, I mean, prostate cancer is very common. It is also very treatable. Usually, yeah. Obviously, at this point, we've talked enough about his age, but you can't ignore the fact that that's a risk factor for this. Right. He and his family are evaluating treatments, but that it had been responsive to a type of hormone therapy. It's basically like an

I believe it's like an androgen blockers, the type of therapy, hormone therapy that he would be receiving. Yeah. But it's it's really sad. This family has been through a lot. It's quite interesting timing with the fact that they were going to release Robert DOJ's former independent counsel, Robert, hers.

recording of, you know, his, his questioning with the DOJ over those classified papers from, you know, a year from 20 ends of October 8th, 2023 of all days, which is pretty wild to think about that. He was doing that the day after October 7th. Right. I mean,

I mean, like that's what he was dealing with. People want to like remove all of the context surrounding anything with Joe Biden and like for whatever reason have made this the thing that's going to unite Americans. All this hate for Joe Biden and all the conspiracy and all the original sin. I think the name of that book is so insane, too, like especially given what we're dealing with now and what we've dealt with with past presidents. It's a little bit much for me.

Well, I saw a funny point that was like, well, technically the real original sin is that Obama chose a successor he didn't actually think could succeed him. See? Well, there we are. But I think also, you know, and we're once again talking about my Catholic heritage, but the

The Catholics are funny about medical intervention also. I don't know how Catholic Joe Biden is to say if he would not do certain treatments, but like why? Like what? Like my grandma had colon cancer and she believed that.

that it was just her call home and she didn't want like major invade. She was only 71 and they, she didn't want major invasive things. Cause she said, I would be running for two more terms. She said, this is like her, but it was like her faith issue where she was like, I think that this is too much for me to consider doing like, cause the treatment for cancer can make you very sick too. And so like,

I don't know. She decided that she would just much rather, you know, spend time with us in her full capacity than like put her body and all these things through what she considered to be as a Catholic, like,

like a other, like playing God type intervention. So really with chemo Catholics, I didn't realize that was, um, it could go either way. I think it depends on who you are now. I know that he is, but he's also, you know, respect science. So maybe he'll do it. I can't speak for his family. I'm just saying, I wonder at his age with the stress and pressure he's under with the advancement of this cancer, when they say they're looking at different treatments, what exactly does that mean for quality of life? You know, where are we at here?

Well, what I had heard from, you know, doctors who were analyzing this on MSNBC, it is actually possible that I think...

I think there is a bit of misconceptions around cancer experiences, cancer treatment. Obviously, everything's very different. But I do think that it is possible to have a decent quality of life while treating cancer, while you may not necessarily be able to cure it entirely. I do think that he could have like there are options on the table for him within the treatments that don't necessarily mean that he would be feeling better.

Terribly. You know, and again, people aren't his doctors. Yeah. Well, the thing is, these people aren't his doctors, so they can't tell, you know, specifically. But I think they're speaking more generally about what are options for cancer treatment now. But I think.

to what you're saying, you know, maybe people will stop beating up on Joe Biden. Like to me, I don't think that like they should, uh, you know, look, I think obviously people should be nice to him. People should stop. You know, I think it's great for empathy, you know, people to express empathy and sympathy and to send words of care. But what I'm hoping is that like, maybe this will give people the excuse that they need to stop blaming Biden

the person who was not mentally capable, I think we're all seeing, of deciding whether or not he should even be in this race. And maybe people will take this permission to throw his group of paid advisors and

the Democratic National Committee that changed the rules of the primary to tip the scales in his favor. Maybe we can focus on how those people are accountable. You can't both say that this man is in mental decline, which I believe he was. It is a nuanced thing. It is not something where you look the same every day or you have the

same level of energy and rigor and mental capacity every day. This is how aging works. It's unique. It's nuanced. And I think that if people are going to try to say this was Biden's fault, he should have known better. You can't also then say he was in mental decline. It was up to his wife. It was up to his advisors. And when they were unwilling to say he shouldn't run, that's the commit. The DNC should not have been like, OK, so we're going

change all our rules for you, even though the American electorate is telling us this man is too old and he they thought he was only going to do one term. So can we now make it about the people who should really be about which are these advisors, the DNC, these people who are just so out of touch with what Americans are seeing?

I think you're dead on with that. I think that's exactly where we need to be. And I think the broader conversation about the consultant class and like who is the Democratic Party needs to be exposed also because we have the legacy consultants that go back forever, the neoliberal type folks, right, who are still in power, still making decisions and still absolutely fucking shit up. And then we have. And they're in each other's pockets. So they can't be honest with each other. Nope.

and very much incentivized to not win elections, but to constantly run candidates that can raise money. And then you have the new consultant class who thinks they could be a better version of the old one by doing things like touring debates, right, and trying to win back the Republican voters. And I heard some interesting commentary on TikTok, of course, a Black creator, and she was saying that

You cannot win the Democratic Party if you do not win and center black voters. And right now, what a lot of the consultant classes are doing is lining up a bunch of white influencers to go out and try to debate MAGA bros and try to like win back these Democrats.

young people they think they lost to the right-wing pipeline. And what she exposed that I was like, wow, it made me like sit back. She's like, and the reason why they're doing this is because these white consultants want their families back together. Trump ruined their family, made a schism in the Republican Party where you couldn't just be a normal Republican. Now you're a Trump MAGA Republican. And so these people are incentivized to try and get their

family members back on their side, back off of Trumpism. And that is the sort of trauma that is driving a lot of the new consultant class. It is not actually what is the most reliable and consistent voting bloc of the Democratic Party. There are 35 million eligible black voters this next election. And who is actually recognizing this as the powerful bloc that it is versus spending all of this money trying to debate Charlie Kirk and chase around MAGA people? I'm sick of it.

Well, here's the thing. Like, I have no problem with these people trying to get their families back together, but that should not be the strategy of the party. There's a huge difference between, oh, this is what the party is doing versus, and again, like,

the party itself versus what external people are doing are different things and external people can do whatever they want. And I think that there's this like idea that if you talk about these external things or you promote, you like them or you don't like them, that those are somehow, um,

determinant of what the actual party strategy is. The party strategy has got to be coming through people like Pete Buttigieg and who's going on right wing podcasts to try and win back these bros or Gavin Newsom interviewing Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon to try and like, I don't know what that's all about. But I just don't think that bringing those people into this party makes the party any safer or stronger.

No, it won't work. Yeah, I don't want anti-Semites in the party. I don't want anti-black people in the party. I don't want anti-LGBTQ people in the party.

I don't think we should be talking about who we don't want in the party. I think we should be talking about trying to persuade the largest number of people possible that the Democratic Party will work for them and not gaslight them into the actually prices are not too high. And the president is not too old. You don't know what you're looking at. Your bank account is not right. Your eyes are not right. He actually didn't ship over that sandbag, literally. Like, that's the thing. It's.

And this is what I find frustrating about the conversation, because you can't ignore the existence of Joe Biden as the

The aesthetic issue, right? Like he is the avatar for the problem. Sure. But when you when you talk about that, people are like, stop talking about Joe Biden. It's like I'm not talking about Joe Biden. I'm actually talking about the people who allowed Joe Biden to get to this point. And those people are still in charge. I think you said it good, Sammy. Joe Biden is the avatar for all of the problems that we've been experiencing with the Democratic Party. I think that puts such a point of clarity on exactly what we're dealing with.

Well, what they need to do is stop defending Joe Biden. Right. And stop making it about this. Stop. Stop defending it. Yeah. If they could just say, yes, we were wrong and say.

say we were deceived. Say we were deceived by this inner group of people that we want to get out of the leadership of the party. Then you have somebody to blame without every single person having to, in the party, having to say, oh, I knew, I knew it was bad. No, they were hiding him and they were hiding him. They were, I'm sorry. Like, it's just, you can't deny that they were hiding him and

And it just makes you look like just chills. Well, because it's still happening, right? And now we have this shadow world. Nancy Pelosi, who used to be front and center with her opinions, is now sort of running behind the scenes enforcing her will. And so we're still the only thing the Democratic Party has learned in my mind is that they can't be the front facing person saying the thing, but they haven't given up the power behind the scenes. The man behind the curtain is still the neoliberal class of like the Biden era, if you want to talk about that.

Yes, exactly. And I think part of the reflexive defense of him is because there's nothing else to say. If they had something else to say and were like, move on, because they're like, move on. And it's like, you don't have anything for us to move on to. So they're offering nothing to move on to. And yet they're insisting that you can't talk about him. So it's like, OK.

okay, let's get a message. How's that? Maybe we have a message, maybe a little anti-corruption message, maybe a little getting money out of politics. Maybe we're going to try to give people a public option because this healthcare system is so unbelievably fucked. It's so bad. And you know what? We know you have no power to do any of it. That's fine. But at least say what you're going to try to do. Exactly. And I just, I, so I've been a member of the Working Families Party for the last like two years now because I think that they are a better organization

organization to represent values of the left than the DNC is per se. And I think we should talk to them more because a lot of folks are like, yeah, the Democrats suck. I'm going to be independent. And I think actually being independent is even more adrift than being part of the Democratic Party in some ways, because there's so many grifters in the independent movement and it's so scattered that I'm like, let's

Let's try and get some more attention to the Working Families Party, which has a great structure, which does have values that align with all the things that we just said. And that can, like MAGA built their platform on top of the Republican Party and then switched it over. Working Families Party can continue to build on the Democratic skeleton, if we want to call it that, but flesh it out in a way that's much more in line. The liberal skeleton. And flesh it out in a way that I think addresses a lot of these issues. It's just not enough people know about them yet, really. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I think my issue is a stylistic problem. It's not about like because we're not even actually discussing any ideology. Like it's all about like aesthetic ideology. It's the aesthetic of of an ideology, but it's not. There's a policy on the table because the old stuff doesn't work anymore. Like protesting the streets doesn't work anymore. They don't care. Wearing the being reactionary with your T-shirts doesn't work anymore. They don't care. Doing debates against tech.

The debate thing doesn't work anymore. Also, a lot of the people doing debates don't have the range to do the debates. Debates are an academic exercise, right? They are not supposed to set policy or be content necessarily. Especially when the thing that they constantly want to debate because it gets the biggest clicks is, are trans people trans? This is crazy, guys. So I just think I've kind of walked away from all of that in many ways. And I'm like, okay, there has to be some sort of like...

Come to Jesus adult coalition that says that didn't work. This isn't working. But I have found a group of people who want to work together. Like one of the things I think is really cool that whether you're going to vote for her or not, Kat, who was a tick tocker who's running in Illinois' ninth district, I think she raised a bunch of money for a campaign because she had to. But instead of buying ads, she did mutual aid.

Love that. So that's incredible right now. The people who the Democrats or Republicans are typically the people who make the ads for the for the political companies don't want people to know that's what she did. But if I was running for Congress in a small district. You turn that into an ad. Exactly. It's an in real life.

Right.

I got furious the other day because I got an email from the strong museum, which we have, uh, the national museum museum of children in play is here in Rochester and people come from all over to go to it. They are in a $500,000 deficit right now because their funding got cut from libraries and from wherever else Trump cut from. And I'm like, I already fucking paid my taxes. Okay. And I pay a lot of money in taxes. I don't have the money and neither does anybody else to pay taxes to

fund programs and then have those taxes. I don't know what he's doing with the money, just pulling it back and it's going nowhere. We are not going to be able to subscribe to every single person's sub stack. We are not going to be able to support every single nonprofit when we are still paying taxes that are supposed to be funding these projects. And then we're talking about Medicaid getting defunded, but we need to move on. We're not going to be able to fund everybody's GoFundMe for their medical thing. We need a society structure that works, right? And we can have that.

if we stop acting stupid. We can one day have it. But speaking of Jesus, let's come to Jesus. I think we've had that. Yes. Had a realization about the Pope. Yeah, he was cool for exactly one day. The Chicago memes were great. The Pope, all of that. And then he came out and he said that marriage is between one man and one woman, which I think, you know what? That's fine. Religions get to decide what their spiritual contracts are like. But for

federally, my marriage is legal. OK, like this separation of church and state should be a thing. But people will use Leo's comments to try and say that your federal civil protections should be in line with some sort of religious idea.

Well, he's not an American lawmaker. Right. He's the pope. Yo, J.D. Vance is all up his ass, though. I mean, he's not that into J.D. Vance. He's like, get away. He met him. Did you see when he met him and he did this? Yeah. He was like afterwards. He did the like. I mean, that's what I do anytime I read my Twitter feed. He did a very obvious Chicago shutter at him. And I was like, I love that for him.

I find it so strange that people thought that the Pope would think anything different about marriage. We wanted a woke Pope. That's a requirement. He was never... Look, you're never getting a Pope like that. No. That's just not what that religion is selling. If you want to be able to have gay marriages, there's other sects of Christianity that will do it. It's just the Vatican is not going to do it. And I think that we need to...

understand that we could have gotten an evil pope yeah and instead we just got like the guy who is fulfilling the basic requirements which is that like yeah i know this is not that i think this is like he's look you could have gotten a pope that loves jd vance sure

They were trying to get that. They were trying to get one. Yeah, like we did better. Look, like, I wonder how Opus Dei has responded. How can we get into that cult and find out what they think of the Pope? That's what I actually need to know. I read that Leo had a meeting with Opus Dei. I don't know exactly what happened, but I did read that he met with them. Okay.

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Well, when it comes to fire and brimstone, there was a good fire this week, though. I think so. A nice cleansing fire. OK, I thought so. That Louisiana plantation burned to the ground like and at one point I read that the fire actually was out and then reignited itself. And I think this is the world that we deserve to live in. Now, the coincidence is Annabelle, that haunted ass doll from Connecticut, is

brought to New Orleans. And then the day after this haunted Annabelle doll is brought to New Orleans, this fire happens. So people are joking that Annabelle brought the fire. Okay. I didn't understand that. Like what was this Annabelle doll reference to the fire? Let me tell you, because they're from my hometown. Cause you know, I come from the weirdest place in the world, the Valley of Connecticut. So the Warrens are like iconic, you know, demonographers and ghost hunters and whatnot. And like the movie, the conjuring and Annabelle and all those are about their lives.

So they used to have this museum in their house that was the Museum of the Occult. And it was like all the things they had captured from around New England that were haunted. And this Annabelle doll is this rag doll that was in, you know, it's like considered the most haunted object in the whole entire world. And it's Raggedy Ann doll. And.

And so she's not supposed to move or anything. But now the Warrens have died. Zach Baggins, I think, bought it. He's like the ghost hunter guy. He had it at his museum in Las Vegas for a period of time. And now it's on tour, which is not supposed to happen. Right. Like this thing is supposed to not move around and do stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

So anyway, they brought it to New Orleans, which I think is just the craziest shit. Why would you bring a cursed doll around with you? Why would you bring it to New Orleans of all the places? One of the most charged places when it comes to like haunted. Might as well bring it to Savannah, Georgia, right? I mean, where's next? So they bring it to New Orleans.

And then this fire breaks out and the whole entire plantation house burned down, but not where the servants quarters was that house for whatever reason didn't burn down. So. Yeah. Okay. There's a lot of interesting things about this. So apparently this was like a big plantations with very abusive, historically sugar plantation, historically brutal. Yes. Um, and the, they, they had weddings there as all these stupid. Oh,

Oh, my gosh. Well, there's one... Well, okay. You know how I asked you, like, what do you think would be the best way, like, for people to handle plantations? And I started reading, like, threads about this. And some people... No, some people said... A few people cited the Whitney Plantation and said that that's, like, a good model for the way that you could, like, turn a plantation into a piece of history. Well, they basically...

they don't have weddings there. They turned it into a historical site, a museum where they focus on the people who worked there, who were enslaved there and not on glorifying the big house of the antebellum and, and all of that. So I thought that was an interesting thing because it is, you know, if you do want to preserve the building, like there isn't, there is a way to do that. If you really,

care about preserving the history. It's doable. It's just that, you know, I think having like your gorgeous wedding photos there is like a little fucked up, especially because you could people can sleep in those cabins. Like I was looking into it last night and there are actually like people can stay in cabins

Like, you couldn't spend a night. Someone gave it five stars. Oh, my God. Like, to spend a night in the old slave quarters cabin. Like, that's fucking nuts. Didn't Justin Timberlake get married? No, Justin Bieber. Blake Lively. Blake Lively. Blake Lively and Brian Reynolds. But also. Got married on a plantation. And if you look on the website, you can also see the slaves quarters there. Oh.

They're out of control. I think it's pretty crazy. Like, I understand, you know, you can't equate the Holocaust and slavery. They're not the same thing. It's not the point, though. I think about it like, who would spiritually want to be married or do any sort of celebratory thing on the site of a concentration camp? Right, right. You know, it's the same kind of vibe.

Like it's the same kind of bad energy there. Well, I'd be thrilled to hear it burned down if they were throwing weddings at Auschwitz. They should. They should not. No, they should keep it as it is. No, they should not do weddings. No, they should keep it as it is, which is a museum, which shows the difference between how Europe handled their post-war history and how we have handled it.

We're like, we need it to be pretty. We can't build another neoclassical Greek revival house anywhere else that didn't have some. We just need this one. When I worked in D.C. in catering, there was this place called the Oatlands Plantation. That's what it was called when I first started working there. And then they went through a rebrand. And I didn't do events there until later when they were like, we're doing a rebrand.

And we're going to we are no longer calling it plantation. We're calling it historic home and garden because people don't want to get married on a plantation. This is like early 2000s. But it's still a plantation. It's still a plantation. Something always went wrong at these events. It was always like it rained. There was some sort of issue with the food. There was always some sort of issue with the bugs. Some guests would faint or something would happen. These are cursed spaces that do not want you to have your wedding at them.

Not to get all like a cult, but when I was watching the videos of the flames and the pictures, like I def, I feel like I saw some stuff, you know, I don't,

Ghost. OK, look, I don't believe. Yeah, I believe that. I do believe in this stuff. A hundred percent. I don't believe that you could have something like that. And there's no spiritual blight. Sure. The energy. Sure. Yeah, of course. I'm glad that it burned all the way down to the ground because no one died. So you know what a tragedy. Someone died. And I think that that's an interesting part of it as well. And there was another story that I was reading about how people are like, oh, the architecture, though.

You can rebuild that. There is plenty of this architecture all throughout the South. You could see tons of this all throughout the South. This is not a loss. Okay. Also, we don't care about architecture here. No. America burns down. We pay paradise and put up a parking lot. All the time. We do this all the time. We don't care about our historical things. No. This is bullshit. If you can get another white condominium.

somewhere else. Like it's just, you know, you can rebuild these style homes if you really like it. Like they exist. There's no rule against that architecture. There are plenty of places to get married that aren't plantations. And also I'm a 10 out of 10. You should just elope. That's what we did. And I thought it was the greatest thing ever. It's so good.

Just elope. I mean, I have a party with your friends and then have a party with your friends. People are really invested in like what they're trying to do. The aesthetic. You can get a weeping willow elsewhere. Yeah. Go to the park. They have them. Anyway, when we come back, we're going to be talking to Chasten Buttigieg. Yes. I'm so excited about this. OK, we'll see you in a second.

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Welcome back, friends. We are here with author, political spouse, gay icon, Cheston Buttigieg. Welcome, friend. We're excited you're here. Thanks for having me. We are thrilled to be one of your first stops on your book tour. This book is lovely. I read it last night. Thank you. Beautiful.

So I just have a question. Well, first let me say I love the animation. There was one thing I noticed. Peter's beard started growing. We need to know. He had a little 5 o'clock shadow. We need to know. What do you think of the beard? I love it.

You love the beard. We do too. I think the beard's working. Every day it's about the beard. Really? Yeah. Okay. You don't get the question, is your husband going to run for president more? I get that a lot in the grocery store too. What's the answer? The beard is incredible. Yeah? Yeah. I'm going to pivot right around the other question. How about the presidential run? I am very much enjoying having him home. You're enjoying having him home? Yeah. Okay. That's important. I like watching him.

slay dragons out there right now but uh it's nice being a family for one you know like you like having papa coming home together did he say to you thank you honey i'm going to grow a beard or was it sort of like it started as like a weekend no shave thing and then was like oh this kind of looks good like he grew like he grows a beard very quickly so i think early on in our relationship we went on vacation once he grew a beard um when our kids were born uh he grew a beard no time to shave

Yeah. No, I like it. So I like the beard. I think it's working. If you also look up the comments on all his appearances, they are positive. I think it's great. I had a mustache dad and I think mustache dads are great dads, but every summer vacation he would shave that mustache and then like jump in the pool with us and we'd be like, Oh,

without this mustache and i can just i hope you have to incorporate your children into the shaving of the ears so that it doesn't creep them out like if you shave it and then enter the room they're like who's this person yes oh i guess that makes sense when they're really young yeah i hope that um that pete gets the thrill that my dad got of shaving his mustache and then watching his children be like oh my god happened to your face are you who are you

Okay, so we know Pete's going around the country, recently visited Iowa. I'm mostly curious, taking the run not aside, who are the two of you planning these things? How are you talking about these things? How do you explain that to your kids? Are you going to write them a book? Daddy's running for president. I've reflected a lot on when we say that we're going to work, usually that means we're traveling. Okay. So-

The other day I was talking to Penelope, reminding her that I was going to go on book tour and I would be gone for a week. And I said, just remember that tomorrow I'm going to get on an airplane and I'm going to go to work. And she said, but you always come back. Oh, my heart. That's right. I do always come back. But the fact that.

It's kind of normalized for them already because we do travel a lot. And Pete traveled a lot, obviously, in the first three years of their life. So there's part of me that, you know, feels bad that they've already grown accustomed to us traveling so much. Yeah.

and being gone so much and obviously once they become aware of the fact that you're gone then it really weighs on you then book tour comes like much like my my book tour when I talked to you two years ago yeah was kind of like a break the kids were you know almost almost two they didn't recognize that you were gone and that was like I need a break this is like they know I'm gone they're asking about me they call every day and then you're like I really want to get back home

So having Pete home, I really do mean it. Like we haven't had time like that in the kids' lives where we're both home most of the time.

The political part of your question, like how do you decide what you will do? What do you say yes to? What do you say no to? It's much more difficult with the kids in the picture, right? Because it's much easier to say no to things now because you have a really good excuse. I had to miss one of their school concerts and I felt really bad about that. I want to be present for a lot of these things.

And then I think it's deciding as a political person, like, where do you take your voice? Where do you spend your energy? And how can we spend time with people in an effort to spread a message that they might not have heard before or someone who maybe hadn't been taken seriously before? And I think Pete is...

you know, trying to figure that out. Like where, where is, where am I best used as a communicator and a messenger and a listener? Not so much as me, cause I'm enjoying being at home more, obviously book tour is different, but I do think it's time for us to think about how we have those conversations in politics and like how we just maybe get offline more and, and start to think about the conversations in our personal lives and the people that maybe we hadn't reached out to before. Yeah.

I have a question directly related to that. I know that in your earlier years, you did a lot of work in children's theater. And I'm wondering how that education and experience has prepared you for the theater of your life now and for being a dad.

I reflect on that all the time that it feels like so much of Washington is theater. Oh yeah. It is children's theater. They seem to think that it's like anyone believes you, if you, you know, they believe they, was anyone going to believe Kamala Harris when she was going to give $25,000 to first time homeowners? Not because she didn't want to do it, but because it's all about the theater. It's like, we used to have real policies. Now it's like, Oh,

Oh, what can I say? Yeah. Well, people knock vibes. People say like it's vibes, but vibes is real. No, it's only vibes now, unfortunately. Yeah. And you- Which sucks because your husband has quite a bit of substance. Thank you. Yeah. I like him too. Yeah. That you see these people who get elected to these offices, they go to Washington and then they're just like influencers. They go on the floor, they say something crazy, then they fundraise off of it. They send out the email, you know, uh,

Nancy Mace is a perpetual victim, right? It's I've been attacked. This thing is happening. Rush me money. We'll match your donation. But you don't see people like this obsessed with bathroom.

Yes, focus on substance, like things that, like the whole point of politics is that we elect you so you can go to Washington so we don't have to, right? We can focus on our families, you know, and focus on our jobs and know that someone is fighting for us in Washington, that they're trying to advance policy that will make life more affordable or easier or safer. But now it's just theater. So much of it is theater. And I think that's what tunes people out. Americans have watched Washington turn into this, you know, show. Mm-hmm.

And it's not getting anything done for them. Or it's getting things done and it's boring. That when things get done, it's kind of boring. Like it doesn't make the news as much. Nobody's really yelling about anything or fighting with anybody about something. So then we're not covering like the good stuff that happens. Well, the press was famously bored during the first two years of the Biden administration. Like they said they were bored. They were like, well, they're all they're doing is talking about like their plans. Crazy. Yeah.

Turns out that's what we need to happen in Washington. Yeah, like turns out you actually don't want to have to think about the president. And that would be like a really wonderful campaign slogan. Yeah, like all of those safety boards and panels and things that you don't have to think about when you're going about your everyday life, like turning on the faucet and getting like

Clean, safe drinking water involves so many elements of, you know, administrativia and bureaucracy that you don't have to think about all the thing that, you know, the only thing that you think about is like, oh, I have safe drinking water coming out of my faucet. But when people start gutting things that protect your water, protect your streets or protect your airspace, then you start to notice it. So politics in some level.

Should be boring. It's people doing their jobs, keeping you safe that you, so you can focus on other things. Yeah. I mean, I, if you want to get like really, uh,

serious about it. I really feel like some of our foreign adversaries weaponized our comfort so that we could start to argue about seemingly trivial things and get distracted by things like what color is the green M&M or we know what color is the woman or a man. I don't know. I forgot about that. You know what I mean? Only in a country where you can order food to your door at the drop of a hat are people arguing over and

candy mascot. Yeah. Like that's not and not to say that like everyone in America has what they need. They do not. But when the I think like the sort of, you know, upper class, like the political class separates for the most part from the average elect, you know, average voter, that's like what you get. You get like a lot of this dumb, stupid conversation and not a lot of like practical conversation about how you fix things. Yeah.

easier to have those types of conversations or arguments or fake arguments for the sake of theater, television, clicks and news. They need that too because they need to keep themselves solvent. Yeah. We

We've gotten off to a great start this Monday morning, haven't we? It's Tuesday. I still want to go back. Yeah, let's go back. I still want to go back and know if you're playing like zip-zop Zoom with the children. Like how has your theater background played into your daily life as a dad?

Well, one of my favorite things about teaching, like right out of college when I was teaching at first stage in Milwaukee, I was teaching at a children's theater. I would teach like third and fourth grade classes. But one of my favorite things to do in those classes was basically creative drama, we called it. You would give the kids a prompt and then they would tell you what happens next and then you'd act it out.

Right. And then you pause and say, like, what do you think the character is going to do now? And then someone gives you an idea and you say, that's awesome. Let's do it. And then you act that scene out. I can already do that with, you know, my almost four year olds. And they really helped with the book, too, because you could bounce ideas off of them. But at nighttime, we read books and then we tell stories. So they always want you to tell them a story. So we do that same process. I say once upon a time.

There was and they're immediately throwing things at me like a duck, a dinosaur, like two ducks. OK, there were two ducks and a dinosaur. And their names were and they'll throw out the names. And we do that for like 10 minutes. They're going to be very creative. And it makes no sense. I love it. I love that. That's a great idea. My grandmother did with me. Yeah. And yeah, no, I turned out. And now you're a professional. Yeah. So, yeah, no, I know. Really, I think it's really, really important to just like encourage any form of creativity. Inspire it. I love children.

So like getting that but acknowledging as a parent that your house is never gonna be clean Like just letting go of that because in a way the crayon on the walls like the first time one of them drew with crayon on the walls We framed it. I saw that online someone did that so special like, you know all your shipping boxes and they just build forts and It's always messy

we can be a little bit better about encouraging like the, you know, teamwork with cleanup time. But there's, there's an element of that where it's like allowing them to just create and think and be is so special. And then if you can get offline, like I will never pretend that I'm perfect at this, but like if you can just get off your phone or get off the internet and just like get down on their level, the things that come out of their mouths is so funny and they're so creative that

And then you're also like a superhero to them. Like if they can't get the twigs to, you know, connect or stand up on the little fort they're building or, you know, get the rocks in the right formation that they want and you can solve that for them, the way they look up to you and you're like, yeah, I can solve this problem. Like I can't solve all the problems that are like waiting for me on my phone, but like to my kids, like,

I'm a superhero. You're making parenting more appealing than anyone ever has. I'm really excited, but yeah, you know, I call my wife right after this. We're getting some kids this year. This is what's happening with the book based on when pop is coming home. So it's actually, I, the, the idea came to me when I was on an airplane, um,

I had been trying to figure out what kind of children's book I wanted to write. It started from a frustration that we don't have a lot of books like this. I was asking around for a children's book that was just a day in the life story. I did not want it to be like, let you know, values ladder, like about difference, which there's absolutely room for those books and we need those books, but we're also just deserving of like silly, funny day in the life stories of families that look like ours. And,

And I had been trying to figure out what the story was. And I was on an airplane coming home. And I've had multiple people ask me, well, why isn't it dad's coming home? And I was like, oh, I guess it wasn't like it has to be about Pete. Because he's the transportation secretary, I think. That makes more sense. Yes, but like I...

I just feel like my character does the really fun things like they're baking and they're gardening and they're playing, you know? Well, I assumed it was like the, the, uh, you want him to have the association with planes. He did a good job with the planes. He's now, you know, you're built your brand building around the transportation.

If I can add, I think also using the word Papa instead of dad gives us more language, right? Because in the peer community, we do use a lot of different words for mom or dad. And I think saying dad's coming home is like, yeah, that's great. But Papa's coming home kind of gives you a little bit of a difference of like what words other families might be using more often.

So I really appreciate that. And I just I met a straight couple at the bookstore yesterday when I was signing some books and that kid's dad, they called him Papa. Yeah. They're like, this is so cool because, you know, their dad, we call him Papa, which is funny that said their dad, we call him Papa.

Same. Yeah. But it was neat that it's like, yes, this is a book for everybody. It's windows and mirrors, right? Yeah. It's an opportunity for families like ours to see themselves reflected in a book. And then it's also an opportunity for every other family to look into the lives of another family and to just see something different, which I think we all need. We need like thousands more books like this. Yeah. I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. I'd read –

I don't know, it must have been like six months ago, a year ago. I had read someone writing about how back in like the earlier 20s, like the early 2000s and like the earlier 2010s when people were like bringing queer couples into like pop culture more. Yeah. And how it used to be that it was like you would just sort of like have gay characters and they would sort of be like thrown in to just the existing plot.

lot. And this person was sort of arguing that like those earlier shows like Will and Grace that just sort of like were natural, like I guess Windows would be a better model. More Windows as opposed to like the mirror philosophy, which then became in like the late 2010s, which was like, it's all very like a

of the diversity. It's like we're telling, like we are making a diverse story and we are telling you this is a diverse story. And that person was making an argument in whatever they were writing. I don't remember what it was that it's more effective when you just sort of like blend in. And it's like as if it's like there's no difference between this book and that book. You know, it gives people like

like less to grab onto and to react to. Well, sometimes I just want to book that room for everything. And I think some, like just for me, I have always thought that like the best way I can be,

um, a representative of my community is just to like live my life, live with my values. Um, because sometimes people tune you out when you go out there and constantly say like, you must see me through this lens. Um, and I just, I want to be a dad. I want to be a good son. I want to be a good husband. I want to give back to my community, but I don't always do that, I guess, with like that part of my identity forward. But I think that gives people an opportunity to see like,

oh, their family is just like our family or, oh, they're going through some of the same things as parents that we're going through as parents. Or they're just concerned about our country the way we're concerned about our country. And it's not like I walk through the world saying like, I'm a gay dad. Right. I'm a dad. And I I'm worried about so many things that you are. And I'm just trying to do a good job the way you're trying to do a good job at everything you do.

Did you always want to be a dad? Did you know early that you wanted to be a father? Yeah, I did. I have been told that perhaps I came on too strong on the first date when I told Pete that I wanted to be a dad. What's that? It worked out. It did work out. Yeah. But I just had so many bad relationships and kind of just felt like, what's the point in going on another date when you're like, look, this is what I'm looking for. And I just felt like,

I was good at the things that I did when I was in nursing school and I was a nursing assistant at the hospital. I felt like I was good at that. I liked taking care of people, but I realized I didn't want to be a nurse. And then I, you know, finished studying theater and global studies in college, became a theater teacher and felt like I was a really good theater teacher. And I really loved it. But I felt like I was lacking this like element of purpose. But the further into my teaching career, I got,

I did feel a bit more like, okay, you found the thing that you're really good at. And, you know, when I entered my classroom, which is a feeling that I very much miss today. Like when I walked into my classroom, I knew what I was doing. Like I just, I, I could command that room. I had a command of the subject. I loved helping my students, but parenting always felt like that thing that was maybe going to make me feel like I had been fulfilled. Like I was fulfilled. And, uh,

So you told Pete this on the first date? You were like, look, I want to have your babies. Yeah, I was like, I just feel like I think I've always wanted to be a dad. And I just think I'm going to make a really good dad. Did he react well? Well, clearly, yeah. Eventually. Okay, because when I was early dating my wife, because for gay couples, it's different, right? Because we have to really intentionally have children. It's not like we could just get drunk one night and accidentally be pregnant.

And I never thought I wanted children because I didn't know that there was – I didn't – like you're a little bit younger than me, but we didn't really have a lot of possibility models when it came to seeing gay parents in the world. So I just never thought it would happen for me, and it was one of the first or second date – maybe second or third dates with my wife. We were walking down the street going to the park, and she just like – as we were talking, she just said very affirmatively. She's like, I'm going to be a really good mom.

And I was only dating her at that time, but I felt like I grew up in that moment. And I was like, oh my God. And obviously we got married and everything and are working towards having children. But it was like...

When somebody says it to you, and I can't speak for Pete, of course, but like you do have this moment of like, wow, this is a possibility for me. And I felt like, one, when she said it, I was like, I'm going to marry this woman. And two, like, yeah, you will. Like, yeah, of course you will. And like we will. And that's such a cool thing that I think the gay community doesn't have a lot of possibility models or talk about enough. That feeling you get when you realize that you can do that.

Well, the fact that that dream became attainable. Yeah. Right. Like growing up recently. Yeah. I definitely didn't think marriage or family was a possibility. Right. And, you know, at that point thought,

I wouldn't even make it to this point in my life because it seemed like you just could only be one type of person growing up in Northern Michigan. And now the fact that those dreams came true, now the fact that you get to write a book like this, it's still like, I still pinch myself every now and then that we got to grow up to be these people. How lucky are we? You know, I was going to ask when you, you know, when you're with your kids, does that, is that present, right? You know, is that always present in your mind? Yeah.

you know, more than you think it would otherwise have been. I mean, I won't like bullshit you like, yes, but no, like sometimes there are those times when you're parenting where you're like,

Oh, my. It's so hard. I could be at the club right now. This could have been a totally different life. Your friends are always posting to Instagram that they're at trivia night. Yeah, and doing fun stuff. You're not getting invited to things anymore. They went out once. What's that? They went out once. Yeah, the friends. Yeah, the friends. I always tell them, you can invite me. Please invite me to everything. And I will say no nine times out of ten. But it's just nice to be invited. So if anyone's listening...

invite your friends that have parents or invite your friends that are parents that have kids and

Even though they might say no, it's just it's nice to feel like you're still connected to that part of your life. We have trained our friends to invite us. And they also know that I'm only coming for about an hour and 21 minutes. And that just has to do with like the amount of time that I have. And they're totally OK with it. Now, tell your friends, normalize having an out time for hangs. Like, don't invite me just out at seven. Be like, I will hang from seven to nine. Yes. Seven thirty to seven thirty. I am so much more likely to come. Yeah. Yeah.

I have a question about your book. Are you concerned that it could be banned? Do you want it to be banned on some level? No, I want every kid to have access to the book. No, but banned. They could get it. They could still buy it on Amazon. When I say banned, I mean it's on the list. My book is banned. If any conservatives are listening, you're not doing anybody any favors. There's nothing better than having your book banned for book sales. Kids should have access to books like this. And the

the thing that I want, you know, those types of people to, to, to explain to me is like why this book is political to them. Right. I would love for someone to try to be like this book, like when you, it's just so innocuous that it's like, I would love, I would almost love to see them try to explain why. Right. Wait, why is your book banned? Uh,

Horoscopes are discussed. No, it was, it's, it's, I had a nice time in other lives because I guess sex. Oh, I don't even know. I saw it on a list once. I'm like, I didn't even know. No one tells you. There's no like notification. It's wild. And it's just like, they decide that that's not. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I really hope that, and this is not like my political way of saying, like I really do hope that this book can be a window and a mirror for lots of families. That one of the best pieces of early feedback I got is I sent the book to a friend and they sent a picture back of their niece and nephew reading it. And they said at the end of the book, they asked them what they liked about it. These are straight couples. And she said their kid said, I like how much they love each other. Oh.

Which is what you want. The whole point of this book is unconditional love. It's so cute. The animation is adorable. This is my favorite page because I'm a dog mom and there's this dog eating the sprinkles while they're making a cake. It's really cute. That was my answer the other day. It was this book political and I said maybe I did make some mistakes with

The content, I don't know if it's safe for a dog to be eating frosting off the couch. Maybe I should have consulted a veterinarian. The animation is so good. Like I was observing. Dan did a beautiful job. Papa in Michigan. Yeah. Like spelled like a kid would spell it. It's really adorable. It really is. There's some cool Easter eggs in the animation.

Yeah, that's why I was like, what are the like fun things that adults would would appreciate? And it's like I have to read it a hundred times to my niece. Yes. Yeah. No, you will. So enjoy it. Yeah. A bunch of questions in terms of, you know, you famously do not talk about politics in the home.

So how do you like a prevent that when it's just on your feed? And then when you have to have these real conversations about, you know, your careers and what you're going to do, do you like go to a mutual third place? Like, where do you do it? You have it in the home. It's obviously much harder these days because you watch the news or you're online and you're like, and it's, it is designed to make you want to stay there. Addicted. It's addictive.

That it's like watching the burning bus rolling down the hill, like as you're scrolling, there's another outrage, another outrage, another outrage. The thing is, like the outrage will be there whenever you access it. So do you need to access it 50 times a day or do you need to choose a time where you like put on the oxygen mask and you're like, OK, going in, I'm going to read the news. I'm going to go through my timeline.

Because I like I I've had to delete those apps off my phone because I felt that it was like doing something to me throughout my entire day. It is. So I just got rid of it. I still have Instagram, but like Twitter especially. It's just it's like if you tap the icon, it will punch you in the face. Are you going to tap it? Right. And like 50 times a day, you're like.

tapping the button it's punching you in the face and and the most important thing about those apps is recognizing that sometimes most of the time people are not in conversation with one another right so like when on twitter have you ever seen someone say like i totally see it your way now thank you so much for explaining that to me no you might see it on reddit maybe i don't even go to reddit it's too dangerous i don't go to twitter oh but to answer your question sorry like yeah we sometimes it's like we start talking about something and it's like you know what

This doesn't need to be at the dinner table or like, you know what? I don't think we have to solve that problem tonight. Right. Did you see this thing that that person said? It's like, you know, yeah, I don't know what good is going to come from us like hashing it out. I don't have to go on the news and explain it. You're not going on the news today to explain it. It's bad.

And now we can move on because there's just not much that you can do. And that's it. But for him, obviously he puts out statements and he goes on the news a lot more than I do, but,

it's just it's it's consuming so much of your precious time and then like the two most important things in your life are like playing down there on the floor and asking you to come you know build trains with them or color with them like why are you on twitter like why are you debating it's a point you know this thing that happened in washington today when you could be you know with the kids with the kids do they know that you're like public figures do they know what that means

No, I don't think so. They think everyone's this way. In Washington, when we had a security detail with much more of a presence, they would call the agents funny man because there were just always a bunch of people following us in the minivan or at the restaurant with us or at the playground with us. But I don't think they recognized why they were there. And you don't want to say, oh, all of these people are around because...

people want to kill us you know like you don't explain that yeah like oh because we're very we're famous we're very important oh yeah i'm personally keeping the planes in the sky with my bare hands like actually my niece is three they have she has no concept of public figure either so when i'm on msnbc or something she'd be like oh auntie's talking to her friends on the tv like that's the level of what they understand she's like okay you go talk to your friends i'm like okay and

I love how my kids always ask to see our friends. Like if we're FaceTiming, I'd be walking down the street and they're like, can I see your friends? Like, yep.

sure, here's all these people. And then it's better. But if you don't pan the camera, they'll keep asking. She must sound crazy in preschool. I'm sure when she's like, my auntie was on the TV talking to her friends, they're going to be like, this child is delusional. They don't know who I am. It's an imaginary auntie. It was very easy to find out. Have you made any progress on convincing Peter to start that podcast we talked about? I think he... I don't want to speak for him. I think maybe he's decided that

uh maybe there are too many podcasts and then he's better like he's a better communicator when he goes on other people's platforms like instead of inviting people into his house like he should go into other people's houses or like other people's platforms he's a great guest he's a good get he should definitely not hoard his guestum by having his own podcast and spread that wealth around i think he enjoys like uh

engaging in those types of conversations and like very different conversations. Yeah. Yeah. So like deciding what your niche is and then launching the platform. I think he just enjoys the challenge of like going into an environment, sitting down and answering those questions.

Rather than like having a platform just to have it. Does he prefer to go on with people who he agrees with or who he thinks he'll disagree with? I think he likes the challenge. I think it's good and he should keep doing that because it's very boring to listen to them. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was I'm very proud of him and what he's been doing. And I think that's what we need as a country right now. We just need like sitting down. Yes. Have a conversation. Yeah.

you know, and then don't seed any ground on your values. Like go in there, lead with your values. This is what I believe. This is why I believe it. Um, I'm very proud of him that he can do that. Um,

Well, you're both so good at that. You're both great at that. You both come in very calm, very educated, very here to, you know, just be a part of the conversation and lead the community. And I think that that's really just a testament to obviously you must have a strong foundational home life. And that's something that people like to just see even, you know, just people who love each other. Like you said, I think when you lead with vulnerability and authenticity, people can connect with you. And like, if you don't like me because of what I've said, that's okay. At least you don't like me.

But I don't want to pretend to be somebody else. I can't sit down to every interview and be like, okay, remember, like, these are your talking points. This is who the public thinks you are. So try to be that person. And I think we just need to, like, come down to earth a little bit and have these conversations with one another. And storytelling and authenticity is where you get people. I'm not saying that, like,

That's what I do. But like everyone should try that. People will connect with you when you lead with that vulnerability. When you're talking about something that's really difficult in politics, share your own story, how that affects your life rather than telling your coworker or your uncle, like you're wrong because of this. Like, well, hey-

That affected my friends or this is how it affects my family. We've been through something very similar or specific. Share that with them because then they see you more as a human being rather than just like, you know, a pundit telling them what's right and what's wrong. What is a this is a hard hitting question. OK, this is going to be very politically charged. What is your favorite musical? And do you still spend time in the theater? Have you seen O'Mary? Yes.

I would love nothing more than to see Omar. Same. We should go. One of the last shows I saw, I've seen Death Becomes Her. Oh, so good. Incredible. Was it? I love the movie. It's so good. So good. It might be a musical Sammy likes even. You'd like this one. Okay, fine. So great. I seek out opportunities to be in the arts because...

It's, you know, two hours and it just does something to my soul. It makes me feel more alive. It makes me feel more connected to my humanity and the people around me. I appreciate the laughs. I love the creativity. It's great to see people in their element and,

And just be reminded that there are really good, funny, creative people in this world. Who are talented and work at their craft and believe in creativity. I agree. It's a really nice two-hour window. What's your go-to car karaoke song, though? If you have to sing it out, what would you sing? My kids are well-rounded. Right now, they're hooked on Beauty and the Beast. They don't like the movie, but they do like the music. Okay. All right. We'll take it. Toddler language. It's like, I want...

the other day, Gus was like, I want Bonjour. Bonjour. You want what? I want the Bonjour song. It's like,

Bonjour. Are you talking about Belle from Beauty and the Beast? Yes. Because it starts with... Yeah. Oh my gosh. I know the scene where she's walking through with the townspeople. So we like that. We're really into Celine Dion right now. Oh, Celine. Good. So good. Earth, Wind, and Fire. Yes. This is perfect. Yeah, we have like a wild... Have you tried ACDC's Thunderstruck on them yet? I have not. You should try it. That'll get toddlers going. We love ABBA. ABBA's great. We love disco. And then like...

Creedence Clearwater revival. They're getting a full musical education. We're all over the place. Bruce Springsteen. We love Bruce. And it's kind of funny that

I'll be like, does anyone, they'll be like, I want to listen to that song with the lady. And I know exactly what they're talking about. It's probably like either Florence and the machine. Cause she's on the album cover, you know, or it's Celine Dion on, on the cover. The disco song is September from earth, wind and fire. Love it. This is amazing. Yeah.

You know what you should see while you're here if you have time? Sarah Snook in Picture of Dorian Gray. It's insane. Too much. She plays all the parts. I need to come back. I always say this. I need to come back to New York and allow myself to just see some theater. See a couple shows. But I'm always here for work. Right, because why would you come not for work? You have something for work here probably every time you come here. And any other parent can probably recognize asking your spouse, do you mind if I go on my work trip a day early so that I can see a show? They'd be like,

Are you crazy? I think every now and then Pete might allow that, but I'm here enough that I just need to make time for it. We've got to get you in O'Mary. That's when I saw it on my birthday. It was wonderful. The book is Papa's Coming Home. I can't read through the screen here.

And you can buy it wherever you get books everywhere, local bookstores. And if not, it'll be available at the libraries too. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Or you can buy a copy and donate it to your library that way. Oh, very nice. It's really lovely. Great animation. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Sammy.

Sammy, that was so lovely. I love that we got to hear about, like, like you said, it's just a book. That's a window into the day, right? There's no, you can just rest, enjoy, read it a thousand times. Not everything has to have some massive lesson. It's just like, let's enjoy reading with our kids. And you will read it a thousand times. If you have children, they're going to make you do it over and over again. And the pictures are good, but I still enjoyed it. It was a great book. Highly recommend it. We love Chasten. And that's it for us this week. We'll see you next week. Um,

Until next time, I'm V Spear. I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream. Good night.