Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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Rise and shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm V Spear. And I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream, presented by Betches News. The show that wants to celebrate the first pope that has done the nasty. I can't believe you let me that joke out. Wait, no, the first pope that has directly survived the Reagan administration. Ooh, okay, okay, okay. The first pope who thinks ketchup on a hot dog is a sin and that holy water is malort.
Okay, we're done with the Pope for now. Tara Palmieri, welcome to the show, friend. We had you on account of you are Catholic, I believe, and we're doing only Catholic news now. So welcome. I'm a Catholic schoolgirl. My parents made me suffer through that shit forever.
OK, I have a question for you then, actually. Have you seen that Gen Z is like they're becoming Catholic, right? And they're getting confirmed. It's bizarre. It's bizarre. I've been running away from it. But they've been wearing their shoulders are showing in church. They have short skirts. I'm like, OK, Gen Z, that's not what I remember from Catholic school.
What are your thoughts? No, you had to stand tall and show where your fingertips dropped. Right. And that's where the length of your skirt was. And I have, like, abnormally long arms. It's like some weird former, like, natural selection. You're trying to, like, shrug.
Yeah. Or I can like walk on my arms. And so my my skirt was always the longest. So I had to roll it up when I got off campus. And then like, you know, it was like Britney Spears back in the day. I know. No, these girls are sassy. But, you know, I'm sure the church is like just happy to have somebody like land fillers or what am I saying? People filling their.
pews because it has been so dead in there. I just think it's weird. They wear the rosaries. I was like, you don't wear the rosary. Never. I don't know how they're getting confirmed because the rules are so strict and it was so hard. And now I'm like, okay. Pope Francis, he was like, all are welcome. Come in. Short skirts and all.
Drop the Bibles, go to confession, whatever. My theory is that these people were inspired by like the Met Gala theme. Like they thought that it was all heavenly bodies, Catholicism, Selena Gomez, hair in a halo. Like they didn't realize that it has all this other stuff, the guilt, the...
the you know they're seeing stained glass and and rosaries that look like chic necklaces yeah they're not feeling like yeah they're not seeing you can't be on birth control the celibacy women don't have a voice in the church really yeah yeah they got three votes v okay yeah three votes millennial we'll take it we'll take it we'll take our three votes for women in the catholic church yeah i
I think the Pope is cool. I like this one. So far, I'm good with him. He walked back some of the stuff he said about the gays in 2012. And, you know, it's a Catholic church. I don't expect it to be progressive or super liberal or whatever. But as a person who was raised Catholic, I feel less...
trauma related to it than I did maybe previously. And I think if they would have went with like a much more conservative Pope, I'm not sure that there would have been this window that I'm seeing on TikTok of people being like, maybe I should give it another try. Maybe maybe it is a good place to find community for me and my kids or try to like have
an appointment where every Sunday at least I know I'm going somewhere with some of the same people from my neighborhood and try to like rebuild a little bit of community. I mean when you say it like that it doesn't sound so bad anymore. It sounds good. Yeah. But when I was you know when we were kids there were so many rules. And like if you were a miscreant like if you missed mass you were reminded and you had to go to confession. And I just think they've like they've opened up the community. But then you have like these hardcore people who are into like the Opus Dei. Oh.
Yeah. It's kind of, that's the J.D. Vance sort of like alliance right now. What do you know about Opus Dei? Oh, I mean, Opus Dei, they're the ones that you always see in the movies where they beat themselves up and like, it's dark. Yeah. It's the, yeah, the whipping. Like in Boardwalk Empire. Yeah.
Yeah, Opus Dei is the extreme version. I have always said that Republicans have a humiliation kink, and this tracks if they're doing all of this kind of, like, self-flagellation stuff. Yeah, they're going into, like, Catholicism in the most hardcore way, whereas, like, Franciscans, like, I know I weirdly know about all the sects, but, like, the Franciscans, which I believe Pope Francis was, they were like, all our wives—
are welcome. Like, it's a party. You know what I mean? Don't beat yourself up. Yeah, don't beat yourself up. But then, like, there's been this, like, conservative movement where, like, if we're going to be Catholic, we're going to be the most hardcore Catholic you could possibly be. Like, the ones where Catholics are kind of like, ugh. They took it a little too far. And now it's being made into weird Dan Brown movies.
I can only hope they bring back investing in art, you know? I mean, if we're going to go super hardcore Catholic, let's invest in massive art projects. Let's commission some artists. It's just, like, amazing how much power the United States has because, like, the Catholic Church is the richest institution in the world when you think about it. Like, the properties they own, the churches, all of it. And now an American is on top of that.
institution. It's just like the vast global scale of American influence is incredible. Religion and politics, like what is going on right now? Well, did you see that quote from one of Trump's, I believe one of his religious advisors where he basically said that
He wouldn't think that he he didn't think that there would be an American pope until America's political influence started waning. And he had said that like a few weeks ago or something. And then we have an American pope. Does that mean our influence is waning? I think so. I think that was what it was. I think that was what was implied.
by that prediction. But I don't know. We'll see. I'm very excited to see how Pope Leo takes the church and what he does. And I think that it's been, you know, it's been very memeable having an American pope at least.
But Tara, we have you on like with the best timing ever. I know we ended up getting rescheduled. And honestly, I could not be happier because you just had an awesome interview on Thursday, I believe, with Lindy Lee. I watched it four times. Former Democrat. I watch it like before I go to bed to literally calm myself down and believe that like the world is healing. I'm so serious.
Some people were like, it gave me so much anxiety I had to pop a Klonopin. And now I'm so happy to hear that on the flip side, some people feel like there is truth. There is light. There is journalism. There is just light. It was phenomenal. But Sammy, tell folks about it in case they haven't watched it yet. Thank you, guys. That's very sweet.
So if people are unfamiliar with Lindy Lee, she is a woman who was very active in Democratic politics. She was a fundraiser for the campaign. She said she raised tens of millions of dollars for Biden and Kamala. She was, you know, I had been following her. I think we had been following each other. So we had, you know, maybe been, you know, in touch over social media back in like, you
years ago. And she basically, like, days after the election, after, you know, defending Biden, defending Kamala, she basically, like, goes full MAGA and starts, like, talking about the Democrats, saying how they, like, covered up and lied and, like— Calling them a cult. Just literally calling it a cult. All of a sudden, talking about how she hates—
you know, how she is like anti-trans people and like anti-immigration and starts really like doubling down on these culture war issues. And now she, you know, she's been right interviewed on right wing media channels a lot. And now she has her has a show with, I would think, like five other conservative women where they, you know, essentially do like culture war red meat kind of stuff. So, Tara, tell us, how did you end up interviewing her?
It's a weird world we live in. Yeah. And, like, did you think it was going to go this way? Thank you for that gracious setup. Yeah, Lindy Lee is a mind-blower in so many ways. I think she actually converted days after the—minutes, sorry, after the election's results. Yeah, she had—
Exactly. I mean, she was out there literally, like, defending Biden to the death, being like, "If you even mention his age, how dare you? You should be apologizing now." I mean, if you look at the former tweets from her and the communications, she claimed at that time that she was privately telling the party that she was concerned about him. But publicly, she was out there, like, whipping it up like the worst of them.
asked my producer to like try to help me book some like more conservative voices because I really do just want like a mix of people on my show. Like I really felt like, you know what? I want everyone to feel like they can come have a conversation. And he mentioned to me that there's this woman, Lindy Lee, that
is getting millions and millions of views on YouTube. And she was on Dr. Phil and Dave Rubin and all these places. And she claims that she has receipts. She knows where the bodies are buried. She was a Biden world insider, and she knows everything. And, you know, I interviewed a bunch of people about the Biden books, you know, Jonathan Allen, Amy Parnes, Chris Whipple, Alex Thompson, and Jake Tapper have one coming out. So I'm like, all right, sure. I will be full disclosure, honest with the audience. I did not do my full vetting of Lindy Lee because I...
I was... Good. I just launched my show, The Tara Palmieri Show, like, last week, and it was just, like, craziness, so... But the night before, I started looking at her tweets. I started watching some of her videos. I, like, you know, was like...
This is a little weird. The fervor, the way she was speaking about immigrants as if they were parasites and just like it was such a 180 from November that just something felt off. I asked my producer to have her send us some excerpts from her book because like I was going to interview her about this book.
that will burn down the Democratic establishment in her own words, saying, like, you should be worried. So I was like, OK, let me just see the book. So I get, like, a PDF version with pictures of Kamala and all this stuff. And there's always a picture of her next to the president, the former President Biden, or next to the vice president. And she looks like, you know, she's in the crush. There are people around her, but she says she's a personal friend of Biden. She said it on my show. Like, she said that she was allowed in places in the White House that others weren't.
In the first few pages of the book, which I read, like, she says she's taking calls from the Lincoln bedroom. I'm like, isn't that for, like, top, top, top, top, top donors? Or anyone. I don't know.
I don't think since Obama anybody's really been in there. Yeah, geez. Oh, my God. And there were just other details about how she was outside of the Kamala Harris party but then decided that she would go and do media instead because her life breeds off of media and that she saw it as political capital. To me, it was a little deranged, the way that she was looking at the entire political complex in a very way of how to insert herself so it becomes about her.
So she can write the book that's about her life. And I kept asking her, like, what makes your book so different than the many other Biden books that are out there? I doubt there's much left in these books to, like, blow the roof open or anything like that.
And she was like, "It was about me. I have firsthand knowledge. They don't. There's a second hand. I talked to Valerie. I talked..." That's the president's sister. "I talked to Ashley," his daughter. And I was like, "Really? How did I never hear about you before? How is the first time I'm hearing about you through my producer?" And so I just became very suspicious upon the... And also I asked her, "Who's publishing your book?" First question. It's gonna become a movie. Nobody's going near these books.
I thought you were actually like really well versed in her because that was your first question, because that would have been my first question, because she's written about how like she has, you know, this book coming out and how there's like a movie attached to it. And I'm like, first of all, in no world is it like,
You get a producer who wants to do your movie before you even know who's writing your book. If there's multiple publishers vying for it and she's been writing it, it would already have been like scooped up. It's not like like it wouldn't have been after all these other books are coming out. And the other thing that I thought that you really called that you actually didn't necessarily call her on. But I have a question just sort of like logically, she talked about how she wasn't being paid.
And how like, because like she wasn't being paid, she's more credible because she wasn't being paid. But in my view, I'm like, well then now you're less credible because you were saying this without actually needing to say it. And then you immediately switch. So at the time you must have really believed it. The fact that she wasn't paid is actually like worse for the fact that she was saying those things. Cause it's not like she was employed by the campaign. She could have just stopped if she thought that they were covering something up. Well,
Well, you say that to her, right? I mean, let's play that clip where Tara says to her, you didn't have to do this. It's fair. People can totally change. But the question is, you worked for a campaign. I didn't have a choice because I was a down party. Nobody has to work for that. You're not getting it. Politics is my entire life. What do I do without politics?
So you don't believe what you're doing? Should I become a teacher or something? Are you asking me to change my profession? I actually think that if you're going to stand up and speak for other people as a surrogate, if you're going to work for a campaign, and now you're going to come out with a book, you should believe in what you're saying. If you didn't believe in it then, how are we supposed to believe you now?
This is my truth. Take it or leave it. I don't need you, Tara Palmieri. I don't need you to believe me. This is just my truth. And I have the receipts. It's up to the American people. And I increasingly I know that people know that I'm telling the truth. Like I have the receipts in every single day. The facts and reality vindicate me. To me, the most shocking moment in that clip is when she goes, what?
Could I be a teacher? Oh, God forbid. As if being a teacher is such a terrible thing. Politics is the highest calling in life, by the way. I don't know if you heard that or not. No, I'd much rather be a political consultant who tries to fleece the American people into thinking that...
this nominee or that someone is someone that they're not. Like, it's such a higher standard. Where did she come from, though? I mean, she's fairly young, right? She was born in, like, 1990. She's fairly young. And she did—she was on TV a ton during this last campaign. I know it's, like, pretty easy to book media interviews. I'm like, who's your publicist? How did you get to be a surrogate? Because everything that I've seen—
She was at, like, large gatherings, right? Like, okay, sure, maybe you got to take a picture with the president at Christmas, or maybe you got to take a picture with Kamala at any number of the events where there's a photo line. But as far as being in any—I never heard of her being in the Oval Office. She was never at any of the creator stuff that got special access. So I'm like, who—where did she come from, and how did she become this voice? OK, here's what I've pieced together, based on her own comments and what I've heard from my reporting, because I had to do some reporting on this before I had her on. So I called some people, right? Yeah.
One person who works in the White House under the Biden administration kind of described her as like a political tourist. She comes from a wealthy family. She raised some money. And because of that, she's able to go in and get like pictures that like the, you know, White House events that when they open up the like, you know, Easter egg roll, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Easter egg roll. Like the picture of her in her.
I think her YouTube handle or her ex-handle is her standing at the White House press briefing, like, in the podium as the press secretary. I mean, I'm sure that was her dream. Like, we all take that. I've had that picture.
I'm sure it was part of her dream to be like the White House press secretary. I think this was to her a way of becoming famous, of being associated with famous people. She probably liked being on cable news. She probably liked people thinking she was important. She claims she's wealthy. She comes from a wealthy family that owns real estate in Philadelphia. She says, I'm talking from my
Like, I'm a wealthy woman. I don't need to be doing any of this. But didn't she say that she grew up with nothing and she's very fiscally conservative because she doesn't like to spend anything? I mean, I understand people can make money during life, you know, over their lifetime, but...
Yeah, that doesn't like her father, she said, has buildings and they and they donated that space to the Biden team. So apparently her family, like maybe they started off with no money coming from China and now they have, you know, properties. But like, regardless, it's just like I think she would have actually liked to have been hired by the campaign. Yeah.
I think her dream would have been to be the press secretary. I think if Kamala won, she would have never become conservative. No, probably not. She would have stayed exactly where she was. She is another one of Princeton's finest. She graduated from Princeton, which is getting a bad rap now with like Pete Hegseth having gone there, Lindy Lee having gone there. I'm like, Princeton, we got to start putting out some better alumni right now.
yeah they're standing up to the administration though so not as much as Harvard yeah well you know the Lindy Lee story is like a very fascinating one I just it's just a certain type of like political actor who can make it in this entertainment complex that exists online like she does get millions and millions and millions of views there is an entire world out there that looks at her and when she speaks they're like
She was there in the room. She knew everything. And they may have never heard my podcast. They may have heard what we know. And that's kind of concerning. Are conservatives going for her? Is it like, because I know Democrats obviously see through that this is like a mess and whatnot, largely. But where she's going with this conservative sort of grift that she's on now, are they accepting her? Or is this part of like the show? Like how much are Republicans actually even wanting her on their team? She was on Dr. Phil. She was on Dave Rubin's show. She's got a show on Patrick
David Patrick Betts Network. So I think like there's like entertainment value in her. Like it's very everybody, every party loves a convert, right? Yeah. But like this is like some like intense conversion. I think her first their first show of the talk for whatever it's called. Yeah, it was last week. Her take. That's it. Her take. Her take.
And yeah, and she spent a lot of the time calling immigrants parasites. Really nice. So it's just this culture war kind of nonsense. But she is an immigrant. She said, oh, my family did it the right way. Okay, well, a lot of people who quote unquote did it the right way are people who are being persecuted by this administration who came legally, who, you know, came under the policies. But, you know, we're not here to litigate immigration. But what I do want to kind of ask you about like this story and how it's kind of emblematic of this.
this like almost like this parasite ring that forms around the actual like political actors and you've been around them a lot you know you obviously came up in trad media that's what we call it on here and are you seeing like yeah are you seeing like
like i feel like there's a kind of a mixing of those two of those you know two industries you know like the cottage consultant industry and sort of the like pundit cable news industry how and you have obviously decided to go independent how have you sort of like observed those worlds merging together and like you know kind of disconnecting from the actual american electorate and like
How did that play into your decision to separate from it? It's a really good question. Like, I just would come home and see my father, who's like in his 60s, watching YouTube like all day long. My cousin's 39. She's like, I get my news from TikTok. Everyone I loved and cared for, like they were not get exactly. She follows UV like everybody I know and love that is not in this like
industrial complex of news, whatever you want to call it, legacy media, consulting class. They were not getting their news from the places that these people were so focused on, frankly, during the election. They were getting their news from socials, essentially social media. And so it just made me realize—I started this, like, about a year ago. Like, even though I just launched this company a few months ago—
I came to you, Vee, and I asked you for advice. I was like, how do I get into your world? Like, how do I start talking to the people that you speak to? Because they are where you are, where the audience is right now. And so it sort of prepared me from leaving Puck, which is new media, but it's like still has some legacy like feels to it.
And because you're really never like truly like you until you create your own thing and you go out into this space. And we are so reliant right now on social media to even just like bring eyeballs in traffic and like get our message out there. So I.
I just felt like everyone was missing the mark, especially during the election, too, to be so focused on legacy media, where now I'll tell you it is so much easier to book guests for podcasts. I'm sure you feel the same way, too, especially from Democrats who like we're sort of like we'll take the meet the press interview. I feel like now I'm being hounded by them.
And I would rather have like a Republican on my show, although I think Republicans are a little bit like nervous now about going on podcasts because even they realize like it's just it's not necessarily like a safe space or like they want to have control. Because ultimately, like with the legacy media, there was a feeling of like when I walk into that room and sit down on that couch, like I have control over the conversation. Whereas when we have conversations with people like it can go anywhere. And this is like this is real life.
We don't have 100 producers in our ears. We don't have all this stuff going on. Like, this is our conversation. So it became real and authentic. And that can be really hard for people who live in a space of talking points and, like, stage moments. You know, Lindy, she has an entire place that she exists. But she was first really propped up by Fox News. Now, I doubt that she's going to be on there much more. But, like, she first was, like, a creation of, like,
Oh, wait, we have this person who was a Biden insider who now wants to come out. She comes out on Fox. But in some ways, like more people probably have seen her online than they've seen her on Fox. Well, I'm going to do. I found her as like resistance lib person who was just like tweeting out like things that were very just pro Dem, almost in like a factory way.
In a propaganda way. And that's where she lives, right? So she's living in this world of collecting things that perform well online and repeating them and repeating them and repeating them and repeating them. Same thing with her even dropping. I knew she was a liar when she said, well, I talked to Valerie because that is an insider's way, Joe Biden's sister, that is an insider's way of proving that you were close to the president is to drop Valerie's name or Ashley's name. Right. It wasn't she didn't say, oh, I spoke to Jill Biden because that could have been posed. She was trying to make it seem like she was like second level, very involved with the family.
And I am making it my personal effort to get your interview with her in front of as many people as possible because I think it, one, is a great... I mean this seriously. It's a great lesson in curious journalism, which I think is what people are asking for. You just were asking her questions about things that she had said were true, and then she was falling apart and...
And I thought for one second she would she she almost started to cry and I was like, she's going to stop the interview. But then she kept going. What part? Addicted to the attention. It was when she after the teacher comment, when she was like, this is my life, this is about me. And when you were like thirty seven million dollars and she's like, oh, it's a ghostwriter. You were also a fundraiser. You said that you raised thirty seven million dollars. No, I'm.
That was a placeholder number. Oh. How much did you actually waste? And that was a draft of the book that I told your producer not to share. Oh, no, I found that online, actually. No, really? Yeah. That was at 37.
Oh, okay. Well, let's say it again. How much money did you—you were a fundraiser and you were a surrogate. A surrogate, for everyone who is just listening, is someone who goes on TV and supports and promotes the candidate, the party, or on podcasts, et cetera, radio. But fundraiser, how much money did you actually raise for—
Paris and the Biden campaign. Millions. And I didn't just raise for the campaign. I raised for the super PACs, too. You have to watch it because watching it is like I'm telling you, I've watched it like four times, if not more.
One, it's a lesson in, like, curious journalism. For all the people out there who are trying to do this work and have only ever watched TV as their example for how to do journalism, I think this is a phenomenal lesson for people. And then, in addition, it destroys this narrative of these type of propaganda social media grifter people. And there are many of them out there, not just, in my opinion, her and the way she operates, but there
There are millions of them on TikTok who come out and say crazy stuff. They lie about access they had or didn't have. They took a picture on the photo line with Kamala Harris, and then they tried to say that they were a part of the campaign and they weren't, or they're trying to use moments that were from the public and make them seem private to, like, raise their profile.
And this interview, I think, really breaks down or at least pulls the curtain back a little bit for the public on what is true and what actually happens and the way that other people might be misusing photos or moments to make themselves seem more credible than they are as well. Totally. And Jamie Harrison, who is the former DNC chairman, tweeted after the interview came out,
Because, you know, Lyndi says she has receipts that will burn down the establishment. And in one of his receipts, days before the election, by the way, days before her conversion, you know, "Dear Jamie, can I please get in the photo line to have a picture with Vice President Kamala Harris?" This doesn't sound like someone who's telling the party, like, "We're going to go down. You guys are a bunch of crooks. This is nefarious," as she claims that she now has—now says.
Honestly, it was just like even it was it was it wasn't an inquisition. And the fact that she became so enraged and.
was the song it was a tell how did you hold yourself like how did because so many people confront narcissists who are gaslighters did you know it was gonna be like how did you hold yourself yeah because you really held your face and you held your energy and you gave her the space to hang herself in many ways but like what was your mind how is she holding her face like this honest can i be completely honest with you guys you're gonna think i'm nuts
I thought it was such a train wreck of an interview that I... Like, I did keep my face, like, pretty, like, neutral because, like, I'm a journalist. Like, I'm not there for a fight. You know what I mean? She might want to, like, have, like, a tantrum and whatever, lose it on my camera. You know what I mean? On my show. But, um...
I sent it to some friends. I'm like, guys, is this is this too much of a train wreck to put on like on on the Internet? Is this too much? And they were like, no, this is like a law and order episode in which you sit the person down and you expose what is. And I was like, OK, phew. So I was like, is this too like is this too much? I thought even for people to see a human being completely unravel the narrative of their life and who they are. Yeah.
And I didn't intend on doing that. Like, I really wasn't a gotcha. I really, I'm telling you, I am, I was in a way like it, that was sort of the beauty of the moment was the fact that I've been so overwhelmed with trying to like build this new product of like the Tara Palmieri show, the red letter that one, like by the time this came across my desk, I probably had two or three hours preparing time to time to repair. And it was late at night. And I think I had like,
just had gotten like a cease and desist or something from Sean Spicer for zero reason at all. So I was like, doubly. So by the time I was talking to her, I was just like, wait, you like what? The Lincoln bedroom. You know what I mean? What parts of the White House were you? You know, it was like my brain. I was my favorite level. Yeah. Yeah.
I was on another level of... I was just like, okay, I'm going to deal with another person that I consider to be sort of grifting off of the political ecosystem that we live in right now. Making a career based on...
What I would consider things that they probably don't believe in. Sure. To just, I mean, listen, it's her truth in her own words. Don't want to take it away from her. I'm just asking questions. But when someone says to you, this is my truth, you can take it or leave it. Like, that's not the, that's not a good line. That's not the truth. That's not a good line. Yeah.
the truth is a different line. So question about the actual, like, so this is all around Biden and the quote unquote, she's calling it a coverup. I hear a lot of people calling it a quote unquote coverup. And I think that there's different,
You know, when I think when the broader public, like, say, outside the Beltway hears that, I think they think about that as like this big conspiracy where like everybody in the Democratic Party knew and was like kind of hot, like, quote unquote, hiding it. And just because they wanted him to run.
And you've obviously spoken to pretty much all the people who are doing like real sourcing on this and talking about like what was going on with Biden between 2023 and 2024. So based on what you've been hearing about, because, you know, Lindy Lee is an important fixture, but there is also this fact of like what was going on in the Biden administration and what happened with 2024. So for
from all the people you've been speaking to, like, when people say cover-up, what do they mean by that? And, like, do you feel that there was a quote-unquote cover-up? Like, what do you really feel, like, went on here? I don't think this was, like, some sort of comet pizza conspiracy thing going on, where, like, you know what I mean? Like, this isn't, like, some QAnon thing that happened. But I do think that there were a lot of people at the highest levels of power who wanted—
President Biden to run again and to win the White House for whatever reasons they told themselves that helped them go to sleep at night, which was we do not want Donald Trump to win again. He's the only person who can beat Donald Trump, which is something that I'm sure that President Biden has said publicly and probably told himself privately as he went to bed every night knowing that he was 81 years old. He still says it.
Exactly. And probably in his mind uses that. And it's amazing how you can convince yourself that you're doing the right thing over and over and over again. I do think there were a lot of people that were close to him that should have spoken out and said something and said, like, you know what? When Dean Phillips came out, like, everybody should have been like, OK, OK.
let's do the primary, let it happen. And like that didn't happen. And the fact that like Gavin Newsom was like, no, he's good. He's great. He did that years before. And after the debate, people still were like versificely, like they backed him and they should have just said like, okay, those six weeks were so critical. And I think if like,
decisions were made during those six weeks that people were just waiting on Biden. And I do think a lot of people saw Biden, and they saw—not even think, I know. I know that people saw Biden, as much as his team kept him closed off from the public.
They saw him and they were like, I don't know. It isn't great. But the American people more importantly saw Biden. Two thirds of them said in poll after poll after poll after poll, he's too old to run. And nobody listened to that. And that's a problem. So that's not even really a cover up. It's just like a it's like we're feeding you dog food and you have to eat it.
So when you say like a lot of people, because I think about this and I'm like, OK, we saw Biden at an event where he looked like quite feeble. But like my feeling is like, OK, I see him like that that day. You know, then you see him at the State of the Union. He was fine.
doing okay and so it's like yeah we're like when you say a lot of people is it like hundreds of people or is it like the five people around him that like were knew that it was like he was consistently unable to perform and or like to the level that the American people expected and they were the ones who were just like making sure that people only saw like glimpses of it because it
You're right. Like the American people saw no different than like what we saw, like the differences that they were just like not giving the benefit of the doubt. And I think a lot of people who are closer to it were like, OK, well, his people say he can he can stay up till nine. Like, you know, it's just very, you know, so I guess it's like, how do they get that trust back when, you know, it was so it's so kind of paints. It paints the party with a broad brush.
It's not great. Like, when Robert Herr came out with his conclusion that, like, Biden couldn't be prosecuted because he would be just seen as a feeble old man, like, that should have been a moment, too, in time. Right. That the trumpets went out and people who would be interested came out because—
And then instead, though, the party attacked Robert Herr, someone that they held up as, like, a beacon of, like, being a fair person. And, like, they were like, he's always been a conservative hack. It's like, well, then why did you guys choose him as a special counsel? There were a lot of moments that were passed when people could have actually suggested, like, maybe it's time to move on. State of the Union, yes, it's an example in which Joe Biden, his former president, got through a speech and he delivered it. An hour-long speech, which is hard. Even for me, I'm like, my voice is cracking right now.
But here's the problem: We shouldn't be sitting on the edge of our seats as Americans, wondering if our president is going to get through an hour speech. And so, like, the standard was so much lower. As a member of the press, he did not give any access to journalists, no access at all. Like, it was incredible. And people that worked in the press office will talk about this openly, that there was a no—that he didn't do the Super Bowl interview. That's a telltale sign.
He did have creators, though. And this is my problem, even with the way Caroline Levitt does it. He did have creator interviews, right, that he knew were going to be super hyper friendlies because they were short. You get eight minutes, 10 minutes. You already had to say what your question was going to be. You got to do your picture and you got to leave. Right. And so I think that that in some ways.
things, certainly, like where we say he wasn't doing press interviews, but he was doing these creator-friendly things. And even in those, it was like, okay, he's slower, but he's not, he's with it, but he's slower, but man, he really looks old. Are you guys, you sure this is going to be okay? This is all right? All right. And I think that's my problem with Caroline Levitt also is the idea that
the creators were supposed to be auxiliary to the press, right, and, like, just grow the amount of audience we have. And there's been a replacement, especially with what she's doing right now with this press briefing seat, where 35 of them are just straight loyalist creator propagandists, right? And I think
There may have been a small permission structure that started with Biden administration around, like, giving creators all of the super exclusive and cutting the press out. And at this point, it's sort of like, OK, the press and creators need to work together to ensure that we're telling the most told truth.
that it doesn't get any kind of more partisan or worse. I think it's interesting, too, the way that they're using creators. It was really crazy to see Sean Spicer sitting in the front row asking Caroline Levitt, "How dare you have the establishment press in your briefing room?" I'm like, "What?"
What is going on here? You are crazy and too old. And also we're on Dancing with the Stars. Sean Spicer, don't think I forgot about your rumba sleeves. And why are you so like this? Like you're a professional person. And Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend being in there who's way too old to be in there.
And by old, I don't mean age wise, because there are older people who are really interesting, wonderful creators. I mean, old in the industry. This man's been in D.C. for all of these years. You shouldn't be taking a creator seat that's meant for actual new media, which might be someone younger in their career or new to independent or whatever. Have you thought about going in there and sitting in the new media seat? Absolutely not. And I would never get picked.
because the process of getting picked requires you to pre-screen questions and have her look at your whole account. And I'm not trying to put my name on any list that's in the Trump warehouse. Oh, my God, the Trump warehouse. The Trump White House. They put someone forward. I think that they would. And that makes sense to me. I think that Axios is certainly in there and they're like pretty, pretty new media. But as far as creators go, they're not going to put Harry Sisson in there. They're not going to put me in there. They're not going to put. They should put Harry Sisson in there.
If I were them, I would put Harry Sisson in there, like as a foil kind of. It's not for me. But the thing that bothers me about this is that like, I think from, you know, the older generation, I think that they don't really know what to make of like creators versus independent media versus like what you're doing basically versus like trad media, quote unquote, that's someone like Axios where they...
There's this perception that like the creators or someone who's independent should be kind of like a megaphone for them, like that they're just there to like amplify their at least that's how like the Biden administration treated creators. I feel like I think it's kind of how the Democrats are treating creators. That's why I haven't done it, because it's still like that, where it's like, hey, we're going to line you up at state.
at State of the Union in the basement and have 15 different creators do the same interview with the same politicians and, like, it's the same thing over and over and over, or do a trend over and over and over. I think it's actually sort of, like, bastardized the creator and independent media experience the way that they're treating it right now. And it's also greatly taking away from the truth that the American public is getting. Yeah, I guess this is what they always thought was going to—they thought they were hopeful that it would be, like, a press that would be more, you know,
I guess, open to their ideologies. I thought that the Epstein binders, what they did when they handed out those allegedly classified binders, just binders said the word classified, and they were all Virginia Dufresne Roberts court documents, public documents. And they had used the creators as props. And that's what it's starting to look like, that they're using them like props. But inside, there was nothing classified about it.
And we still haven't gotten anything new since. I've covered this story, like, the Epstein story. And, like, I worked with Julie K. Brown, who was, like—we actually co-produced a podcast together called Broken on Jeffrey Epstein. And we were both kind of in agreement that we think that Jeffrey Epstein was killed.
I think it was the cop, like the person—I mean, the person that CBS identified as a possible person who would have killed him on 60 Minutes. There were a lot of things that happened during that period of time where, like, the guards were gone, the tape was— The tapes were off. —the tape was missing.
He wasn't the type of guy to kill himself. Like, he just wasn't. He believed he was bigger than God. Like, he had all the money in the world. He probably thought he could get out of it again just like he did the first time. And, you know, pedophiles, first of all, do not do well in prison. So whether someone was paid or not paid to kill him is, you know, what it is. And if there was anyone that was paid, you know, it happens.
where people are paid in prison to kill people. Also, it was in so many people's interests for him to be dead. Like there was almost no one who like would be better, maybe like the victims that they would get like some sort of justice. But there were so many more powerful people who could have arranged for his demise who needed that to happen. So it's just like when you look at the likelihood of it,
especially against what I think is like kind of the most important that his likelihood of actually taking his own life was very small because like that's kind of the crux of it. It's yeah, I think it's like you'd have to kind of suspend disbelief to think that there weren't more people who would have wanted him to be dead than himself wanting to be dead. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, also, the way that he got off the first time around, where he just, like, literally had an ankle bracelet and got to hang out in his office. And he could go to work. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was like—he knows that the justice system works in a different way for him than the rest of the world and for the rich and powerful. So why would he think that he wouldn't get off this time, too? Right.
I think you make a good point, though, that it doesn't necessarily mean it was like from the top down, deep state kill. Could have just been that they kill pedophiles in prison. And that's they do. Somebody just decided, you know what? I'm not letting this guy out or I'm going to do my own version of vigilante justice or somebody. There's a lot of people holding. He was in like he wasn't in prison yet. Right. He was in prison. He was in El Chapo's jail in downtown. Oh, yeah. In downtown Brooklyn. Oh, no. Sorry. Downtown Manhattan.
Ghislaine was in Brooklyn. I used to always walk by because I live in Brooklyn and I'd be like, hey, Ghislaine. Knowing she was right there on the other side while I was working on a Ghislaine Maxwell podcast about her. Yeah. Well, the fact that she's still alive, I think, is indicative that they didn't just take out the whole operation. Right. But I mean, there's so many things we will maybe never know. But I would love to know. Is this, Tara, is this what kind of like...
motivates you? Like, do you want to just, like, get to the, like, get to the bottom of it? Like, why did you want to be a journalist? Yeah, I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I live for. Like, that was the best... That investigation to Jeffrey Epstein was, like, the most...
fulfilling year or so of my life, working with the victims. Like, Virginia, we traveled all over the country together trying to stand up her story. And a lot of the people that we spoke to ended up being used as witnesses in the case against Ghislaine Maxwell. And they're just, like, issues that I, like, really deeply believe in. And, like, one of them is, like, essentially, like, justice for people who, you know, are women, children, poor, you know, sexual abuse survivors, you
And just, like—this is, like—it's just, like, my heart is, like—I like politics. I love politics in the sense that I'm fascinated by powerful people and the people that exist around them and that ecosystem. And I think, like, we need to talk about issues. But, like, I am passionate about investigative journalism that helps people that, like, don't have access to the resources to defend themselves.
I like to get down to the bottom. I mean, I feel like we live in a world that is gray, and there are so many gray things, and I think we have to acknowledge that more, especially as journalists, because otherwise people come to us being like, I want the answers, and it makes me feel safe, but the world is not a safe place. And actually, V, I think you do a really great job of unpacking really complicated topics and making people feel like that they're accessible in a way that actually I think you're far superior at it than I am.
I'm kind of more of like, I call my sources. I try to get the information that I think other people don't have, or I try to get people together that maybe don't normally want to talk, or I speak to people that don't normally talk to journalists, and I try to do that to contribute to the wealth of information in the public domain. I think we all have our own skills and passions, and we try to follow it. And honestly, I'm in an experimental stage of my life right now. I'm having fun. I just left...
left having a boss for the first time in my entire life, essentially. And it feels free. I felt for so long like I was in some sort of cage. And it feels like, oh, I can just kind of go with my gut and just ask the kind of questions I want and write the things I want to write. I find this person to be fascinating. I want to sit down and talk to this person. I like this topic. I want to go into that topic. Whether the audience wants to come along for the ride, that's the risk I take. But
you know, you've created so many amazing things through Betches, like V, like you're like, you know, international superstar, just following your gut and where you want to go. And I just think like that's the beautiful moment that we're in right now is that like people will come along for the ride with you as you're exploring and following your passions. And I'm like a gateway drug to the Tara Palmieri style of journalism, right? Like we all have our
our place. I'm like, I consider myself very top of the funnel, right? Get you interested, make you feel smart, give you the language you need, make you feel safe. Then maybe you go to Sammy. Sammy gives you a little bit more deeper on the morning announcements and the big deal of the day. Then now we're really feeling, now we're ready for the Tara Paul Mary show because we've heard Lindy Lee up here. We've learned a little bit more here. Now we're ready for the interview, but it all is working. This is what I like about this new emerging creator world.
then you can go to the Atlantic, right? But the emerging creator world in new journalism and the way that it's intersecting the way that we do, I think is hopefully what people start to invest in and sort of raise up out of, you know, sort of the muck of where we're all kind of trying to raise up out of right now, which is that it can work together and that there is not one authority, one voice, one channel you listen to. It's a collection.
And you get a little bit from everyone. And then you start to realize, like, who's in community with each other. And do you want to be a part of that community? Like, a lot of folks who listen to our show are like, I like your show. I learn a lot. But I like you and Sammy's friendship. And I like being a part of it for the week. And I like just listening and, like, kind of taking a break and, like, you know, having it on while I'm walking.
around home goods or while I'm like commuting or doing something. It's like a very low stakes listen. But if you see here, something here that you're really interested in, maybe then you do go listen to Kara Swisher's take on it, right? Which is going to be much more hard and like have more details or whatever. But I think women are certainly leading the creator space and this run into new media and what that means to have community and build something fresh. And I'm excited about it.
It's so true. I mean, I talk to people, obviously, like the executives and like the corporate world, and they're like, they say it's really hard to find women that are in the political space right now. And I hope that like what we're doing, the three of us, like I hope it encourages more women to come forward because there are enough bro pods out there. OK, there are enough of them. We don't need Joe Rogan of the left. OK, we've got plenty of that.
more bros maybe if we add all the women together we could get one joe rogan of the left yeah there we go and then she would get canceled for doing something toxic i'm sure that because that's a toxic style of but joe rogan won't no yeah lindy lee is joe rogan of the former left she might be she might be
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Well, Tara, we have a game before you go that I was digging into your past. And way back in the beginning of your career, it's your game. It was called Yay or Nay.
Yays or nays. Yays or nays. Okay, so tell us about when you played the game. I'll explain this a little bit. So back when I was like 22 years old, I graduated from college early and I started working at the CNN as a news assistant, which means you run around and give everyone coffee and like scripts and, you know,
Whatever. And so I was... Oiling the machine. Yes. Oh, yeah. Taking everyone's cards in the green room. Like, I'm 22 years old. I've got, like, my little, you know, I've got my website with my blog and my investigative journalism. I was just...
doing investigative journalism at the time. I was going on the Hill and being like, look, lobbyists are hiring line standards to help them cut lines for healthcare hearings. I was always a little bit of a shitster, as you might say. So I...
But it was 2009. The economy was falling apart. And I was like, "I need a job." So, the editor for The Washington Examiner comes in. He's on frequently. His name is Chris Steyer. Steyer, well, now he's got a show on NewsNation. He was fired from Fox for calling Arizona
for Biden, by the way. Oh, that's, I was like, I know that name. Yeah, he's a good guy. He's a really good guy. And so I was like, Chris or Mr. Steyerwald, I was like, I could be a freelance journalist for you. Like, I can write, I can do this, I can do that. I just need a job, please. And, um,
He never called me for like six months and I was mortified. He would come on all the time and I have to be like, hi. And I was so mortified. I'm the one who wants a job. Yeah, I was so mortified, but I didn't stop. And then he called me one day and I was like in a mall in New Jersey, which is where all Jersey girls hang out when they go home to tell their parents, like, I think it's over for me. I think my jaunt in journalism is about to end. Was it the Palisades or the Freehold Mall? Which one were you in?
It was the one. I mean, I was small. This was this was a special one because I was bringing my 10 year old brother at the time to this like tropical cafe. So I have to think it was like in the rainforest cafe. Yes. The green forest cabins. We actually crossed the border from Jersey to New York for this. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.
I open the fortune cookie and it says, take the next offer you receive. I still have that fortune cookie. And I get a call from none other than Chris Sauerwald within a few hours while I'm in the mall walking my brother around. And he says, would you ever want to write a column? It's like about...
celebrities that come through Washington, D.C. We're calling it yeas and nays. It's not a big deal, whatever. And I was like, kind of downplayed it. And I was like, it would be a dream. And so I thought in my mind, he says it's about celebrities coming through D.C. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You have just given me a page six column. I am going to write about every
in town, the most powerful people, and I'm going to write items. And, like, the stuff was getting picked up by The Real Page Six and by Drudge and all these other places. And I was, like, getting gawker. And everybody was like, who's this girl in D.C. who's, like, becoming, like, a little wonkette-ish. And so then I got a job at The Real Page Six. But I did that for about a year. And it was really, really fun. And so I turned what was, like, kind of like a, you know, a page in a newspaper you probably haven't even read or listened to in so long into, like,
fun place and to have for some mischief yeah and yeah so I got I ended up moving to the New York Post from there and it was it was a weird pit stop in the way and people are like how did you end up as a gossip columnist I'm like I took whatever job I could get and I turned it into what I thought would be the best way to break through especially in the time of the internet actually you would appreciate this be one
One of my pieces where I was widely mocked but got to become friends with the founder of Grindr was when Grindr came out. I had heard that, like, Barney Frank was on it, and he was using it at the gym. And, like, I was like, I'm not going to write about that because it's just rude, you know what I mean, to out somebody on Grindr, especially when it was so new. And this is, like, during Don't Ask, Don't Tell era of Grindr.
Obama years. And people were talking about, like, whether this should still be a thing. And so I started—I went around to the Pentagon, the White House, and the Capitol with my grinder and being like, well, there's a hotbed of activity on Grindr right now in the White House. And, like—
It turned into this viral video where everyone was just mocking me mercilessly. But in the end, the Grindr guys were like, this is amazing. We love it. We love it. And that was just a flavor of the kind of stuff I did. I didn't out anyone. But I just thought, why the hell? But I made it a bigger point. I'm like, why do we have Don't Ask, Don't Tell when everyone's clearly on Grindr?
Like, this is absurd. You got to get the girls and the gays. That's the best audience. That's the best audience. It's the most joyful place. Well, we're going to play a version of Yay or Nay, which is our version of just asking you yay or nay to certain things that are going on around the world. So here we go. So first, yay or nay, airline safety. Are they going well? That's the... Is it going well? Yay or nay?
It's terrifying. So scary. Are you flying or are you driving more now? I have to fly on Friday, but I get really nervous, especially because I have friends that work in aviation. They're like, it's bad, girl. It's worse than you think. Yeah, I drive. And I'm like, Newark Airport? Yeah, it's shut down. I will use a flight. Yeah. Yeah.
Don't go to New York. Did you just fly from there? No, no, I drove to New York and I drive to Harvard every time because I just, yeah. Airline safety, dangerous. Oh, congratulations on that, by the way. Thank you, thank you. A fellow, very fan, at Harvard. I know, she's a university girl, okay. Ooh, a faculty. Faculty.
Okay, next one. How are the tariffs going? Nay. Nay. I know. Just breaking now. I went to an Apple store in Delaware and just started buying things. Oh, yeah.
I bought a new computer because I'm like, this is going to be double the price. I got new microphones and I upgraded my phone a couple weeks ago because I was like, well, you know, we'll see. But he did drop those tariffs to 30 percent on China now, which is still too much. All right. Yay or nay? Housing prices. They're always a nay for me. I mean, I live in New York. It's horrible. It is. It's just been like a bitch. It's been bad for a while, though. I can't blame this one just on Trump.
Yay or nay, Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni lawsuit. I'm pro-Blake. I know that sounds weird. Not many people are, but, like, I feel like she got slimed so hard. And there's, like, a whole media-industrial complex. Like, I keep saying it over and over again, that same phrase, but, like, to slime women. They're, like, just hated on the internet. So maybe Blake hasn't been, like, perfect in this, but, like, rarely do people handle human interactions perfectly, especially when it involves a boss. But, um...
I just think like the way that she's being like destroyed and how much the Internet loves to hate women. It bothers me a lot. We should have you back for an update on this because I feel like I tried to keep out of this topic and now I'm deeply in it. But it's like a whole other episode to go through the whole thing. You can't help it. It draws you in. I hate that this has become like a political thing. And also, I mean, largely in part, thanks to Candace Owens pulling people in through the
her coverage of this case, but it's it really shouldn't be political. This is like such a workplace issue that has now become like a culture war thing, which drives me crazy. Like doesn't help herself. She's not the perfect victim, but no one is. Who is the I think? Yeah, it's also like her husband's involved. Like there's it's so much more than just like her and like now Taylor Swift's getting subpoenaed and too much.
I'm looking forward to hearing about how that goes. All right, last one. Making news for good news, yay or nay? Do you think it's important to force good news stories into the overall coverage? Listen, I like to hear whiffs of good stuff. I heard on SNL that New York is the happiest place of all cities. I don't know if that's true. I mean, it was on Saturday Night Live, so probably not.
That sounds like it's a lie. Yeah, I hear things sometimes that sound happy, but I don't think we should be placating ourselves or others into, like, delusions of happiness. Like, that sounds like propaganda, and we get enough of that. Occasionally, there's a good news story. Oh, yeah, that's fair. Occasionally. Oh, yeah, like a good news. Yeah, good news. But, like...
I wouldn't want to tell people, like, things are better than you think, America. Oh, no. Things are bad, America. And also, this cool science thing happened. Well, what didn't we get to ask a journalist question? Is there anything that we didn't get to talk about today that you'd like to talk about? Oh, me? Aw, thanks for asking. I feel like we hit a lot of interesting topics. I mean, this airplane that Trump is going to inherit. Yay or nay, the $400 million flying palace.
Um, yeah, it looks dope, but it's probably covered in bugs. That was my question for you with your friends in aviation. Did they or, you know, I don't know if you've like started to look into this, but my first question is like, OK, so what's the security piece of that? Like, how do you know that there's not a giant speakerphone underneath the carpeting installed in all of like the seats? How do you... In the situation room. Yeah. Yeah. Like, how do they...
I don't know. It just seems like you don't accept the flying object that your president flies through the air in from a foreign country. Also, as it moves, they could track it as well. Like, it could be— Right. How do they— Like, it could purposely include something that would make it fall. Like—
To take out the entire—the president and all of his senior staff would completely weaken America on the world stage. We could be completely collapsed. Like, we should not be on anything that is, like, foreign-made. It has to be completely debugged, probably taken apart and put back together. So, add another $100 million to do that.
It's just and it's just like it's such a bad look. It's such a bad grift look like even Laura Loomer is saying this looks bad. Also, you lost Laura Loomer. You can't afford her. Someone said she will take a bullet for Trump. Sarah Palmieri, thank you for being here. I'm sure you'll be a frequent guest here on the American Fever Dream as we continue to navigate the pitfalls of America. Tell folks where they can find you.
Thanks for having me, guys. I've been fans of both of yours. So you can find me at Tara Palmieri. That's at T-A-R-A-P-A-L-M-E-R-I, only one I, on YouTube. And now I've got the Tara Palmieri Show, where you can listen to the YouTube shows on audio. So that's on Spotify. That's on Apple. Tara Palmieri Show. All the fun in my head and really focusing on news and politics. But—
Yeah. She's on Substack. She's on Substack, too. The red letter. How could I forget? Yes. The red letter. I write a column with exclusive news. You can get it straight to your inbox if you sign up. Perfect. Thank you. And you've all got to watch the Lindy Lee episode. Immediately. And then the Steve Schmidt conversation that followed it because I thought it was really important to, you know, especially for some Democrats to hear. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
Well, until next time, I'm V Spear. And I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream. Good night.