What The Manhunt For Luigi Mangione Says About Society, ft. Stephanie Ruhle
49:25 Share

Why get all your holiday decorations delivered through Instacart? Because maybe you only bought two wreaths but have 12 windows. Or maybe your toddler got very eager with the advent calendar. Or maybe the inflatable snowman didn't make it through the snowstorm. Or maybe the twinkle lights aren't twinkling. Whatever the reason, this season Instacart's here for hosts and their whole holiday haul. Get decorations from the Home Depot, CBS, and more through Instacart and enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.

Young people are like, F that. I'm paying into a broken system that's never, ever, ever going to pay me back. Lawmakers know this, but unfortunately, they can't do anything about it. There's tons of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle that know that we need entitlement reform, but in order to enact entitlement reform, they can't get elected. Senior citizens are one reliable group of voters, and you ain't touching their Social Security.

Hello, and welcome to this very special bonus episode of American Fever Dream. I'm Sammy Sage, and I am here with Stephanie Ruhl, NBC's Senior Business Analyst. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be part of the bonus. Well, everyone was really, you know, loved our episode last time, and we want to talk again. This time we're going to talk about the United CEO murder, and can you believe this story?

I mean, this story touches everything. Everything. Everything. It's like if you had to design a story to kind of represent our time, he is the murderer of our time. In a weird way. I don't want to glorify that. If you were to design a story of our time, it's about the murderer. But the horrible sad part about it is that the murder has somehow become the sideshow when at the end of the day, we cannot forget

that not very many days ago in the middle of New York City, three weeks before Christmas, a human being,

was gunned down in cold blood in the early hours of the morning. And that's the universe we're living in. And the NYPD didn't find him. A random employee slash patron, where I think it might have been an and situation, are the ones to recognize him. Someone from Altoona, Pennsylvania, when he has a family with at least 37 cousins on just one side and seems to have been, by all accounts, a pretty popular guy. This has blown my mind.

New York City Police Department has a $6 billion budget. When you think about facial recognition technology, when you think about 200 plus times a day, we're recorded by some sort of camera on the street. And yes, he had his mask on for almost the entire time. But where I have just been blown away is

A random person, a random Karen goes off in the aisle of a Target or at a checkout counter. Somebody posted online and within minutes,

People are like, that's Joanne. She's in my country club. She's at my country club. You know, she's a travel agent right outside Detroit. She has four cats. Her husband's name is Herb. All that. It was five days. This young man was valedictorian of his high school class less than 10 years ago. He went to Penn less than five years ago. No one recognized him. That blows my mind.

Well, that's what I want to know because I feel like I've seen a few people who are like, I went to Penn and then people were kind of talking about it, but no one was like, oh yeah, we recognized him this whole time and we didn't turn him in. It seems surprising to all the people that I have whose comments I've seen. It does, but then I think, you know what? When we see a person on video, we often hear their voice. We see their mannerisms. We really only saw his eyes. What really has me amazed is

You know, it was a group of people in a McDonald's in Altoona who first they were talking about it, saying that guy looks like the shooter from New York. The employee heard it. But but it was the Daily Beast that reported the police department in Altoona has said they are getting threats from.

to that McDonald's, that McDonald's employee. When you talk about somebody who was, you know, doing the right thing, the police department, the Department of Justice said, help us find this person. And a McDonald's employee did it. And it's amazing. It's a sign that this person is now facing threats. His lawyer is apparently getting offers to pay his legal bills.

There's something psychological here about both his individual psychology and the mass psychology of all these people who feel like, oh, I'm not going to fuck these people. I'm not going to help them find him. I empathize with him, and I'm not going to be the one to turn him in.

What confuses me is that his parents filed a missing person report. He had lost track of his friends, family for six months. And I have my own psychoanalysis of what has gone on here. But I think with that, it's like, why is the public...

quote unquote, taking his side. Now, I don't think most people who like put a laughing emoji on the announcement of his death would ever go out themselves and murder a CEO, but they feel comfortable enough putting their name attached to like, I'm going to cheer this on in a snarky way at least. And what does that say about the way that people's

People are willing to break this taboo around cheering death that feels karmic to me. I would say two things. It's highly dangerous. And I want to get your take because when I was young, maybe I'll say younger, people didn't see graphic videos, right? They didn't to this extent, right? Once every few years, you may have, you know, like some strange... Now...

People see graphic, violent videos every single day. What's deeply upsetting, and I'm putting over in category A the rage against the health insurance industry. We can even talk about it as it relates to inflation numbers that just came out. We're going to put that over here in category A. But in category B, this is so highly dangerous because we're normalizing. This

This person screwed you over, not cancel that. Remember, canceling somebody was the worst thing just a few years ago. You know, fire them, claw back their pay. No, murder them. Right? On Sunday, a music critic who writes a newsletter,

A respected newsletter had a piece out. Well, who could be next? The head of Live Nation, the head of Ticketmaster? We're really upset about ticket prices. Sure, we are really upset about ticket prices and hidden fees, but that doesn't mean we're going to kill another human. And I fear...

We easily forget how dangerous social media is. Every single thing that I say on television has to get approved by legal and standards. We have the FCC in our ear, up our nose, down our throat, up our you-know-what, and we're held liable for everything that we say or do. We already know

that there are foreign adversaries that push misinformation. We know that campaigns and campaign staffers were hacked.

in this upcoming election, and we keep forgetting about it. Right now, January 19th, though I doubt it happens, TikTok is going to be banned in the United States because of its Chinese ownership. Do the majority of users of any of these apps care? No. They're saying, don't take my drug away. They don't believe that. They don't believe, don't take my drug away. And my concern is that, can you believe all the rage? Can you believe people are cheering on his death? I don't

I don't know that I believe the source for a lot of these people pushing violence, pushing chaos, pushing death are actual disgruntled Americans. And there are lots. I think there's a very good chance. Remember, what do our foreign adversaries want to do? So chaos.

Never forget, it was before the last election when Steve Bannon was talking about his love of Stalin. We want to burn it down. And so part of this rage, because this is what I want to ask you about, because what I, I almost said love, but I don't, what I'm amazed by in the backlash is

is that now it's not working because this boy's story no longer tracks. Yesterday, I spoke to a man. People don't think it tracks, but it actually does. People who think it doesn't track don't know what Gen Z's ideology is. Yes. Because it's incoherent. Yes. And that's what I want you to explain to us. But yesterday, I got a call from a huge guy in the finance industry who said, well, of course, this boy was indoctrinated at an Ivy League university.

By super liberal professors. And I'm like, what? And that person I spoke to ignored the fact that this person also follows a number of super right wingers. This takes us back to the original Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump campaign where there's a universe of young people who are saying F

the system. And for anyone who's saying, oh, it's the right, oh, it's the left, it's not. Please, you explain this to us. I think people, we need to ditch the right-left thinking because especially younger people are not thinking in the ways that

the mainstream media is using those words. Like these are not coherent ideologies. And I think that that's what was so confusing for people is that they thought, oh, he's going to be a leftist. He's going to be this like working class hero. And what they failed to realize is that his ideology and all of its contradictions is

even though he was clearly a smart and thoughtful, well-read person, his ideologies were so confused and conflicted. And you look at who he followed, and it was not like super leftist people. It was like really fringe ways of thinking. And what you're saying about you can't say anything on TV that's not verified, the people he's listening to are the people who are outside of that world where they can just say whatever they want and

And presented as if it's this like really high-minded argument and that they're like some sort of like intellectual boundary pusher. But also that the mainstream media is keeping this truth from you. Yeah. They're lying to you. When I think about in the last week, you know, every sort of vigilante, quote unquote, independent journalist who's like, oh, no, no. This was his wife. This is this I know. The mainstream media is hiding it. There's no hiding it. It was so never his wife. Like maybe if it was the CMO. Yeah.

Maybe if it was 10 years ago, I'd be like, oh yeah, that guy's wife's pissed. But because it was the CEO of this company and this situation right before this investor conference, and he even wrote, I believe in one of his to-do lists, like, wouldn't it be funny if I got him at his own bean counting conference?

And like, it was, I feel like I could immediately see like this guy is radicalized and he thinks he's a hero because, and you even see he's like rationalized not killing him with a bomb because there would be external, you know, there will be casualties. He really thinks, I mean, I think there was probably some sort of psychotic break potentially that occurred due to his pain and like also his isolation, not to excuse it, but he

I feel like that's how he got to this point, especially like a kid who had everything going for him. But what you're saying earlier about we see so many graphic images and we're so like used to this horror. And that's why I think people don't even have a problem joking about it. Why they're like, ha ha ha, it's so funny that –

you know, why they're making jokes about how big his dick is and like how that, why they're buying Luigi hats. I think the reason is because nothing even feels real to people anymore. The CEO doesn't feel real to people. Daniel Penn, you know, Jordan Neely doesn't feel real to people. All the people who are denied health coverage and denied insurance. Cause when you read those stories around, like you read people's stories about their experiences, it's like, Oh, I feel really bad for those people. Yeah.

People's experiences around healthcare and the health insurance industry are horrific. Horrible. They're waiting for endless, endless hours for someone to even speak to them on the phone, right? They're waiting months to get the doctor's appointment. The doctor wants to give them this treatment. The health insurance company rejects it. It goes back to the doctor, back to the insurance company, back to the doctor. Denial, denial, denial. And during that period of time,

You got sicker. This isn't like, but that's it. This isn't like you're sitting in front of your screen, frustrated, waiting for tailor tickets. You're getting sicker.

And that is causing you more illness, most likely, the stress of it, the worry. I think everyone, you know, anyone in that like Lex Friedman world will tell you there's like this mind-body connection. Like this is a real thing. And I think that- Hold on, you don't need to be in a Lex Friedman world to know that. But I imagine- Your emotional health and your physical health are completely intertwined. When you attach to that,

an internet that will take you absolutely anywhere, especially if someone does have something like back pain where they can't get out, you know, chronic back pain and they can't get out of bed. I look at my own sons and the way the algorithm works, you're watching a vintage 1970s football game. You're watching a basketball game. It doesn't take many clicks to go down a really scary rabbit hole

And that's what we're being fed. And as we ingest this misinformation, we're also being told, and the world around you, the corporate media complex is lying to you. You know, kind of a podcaster type of person who came from more mainstream media reached out to me on Saturday and said,

I just can't believe it, Stephanie. Is this true that your corporate overlords, your bosses won't let you acknowledge that there's this backlash and have sympathy for the people? That's been on all. But I said, what are you talking about? I said, I hosted a show last night, my first guest, blah, blah, blah. I explained to this person how much we're covering. And then a day later, I looked at their social media. He ignored everything I said because it didn't fit his narrative.

And this is dangerous because in this time of isolation where we have a crisis of loneliness in this country, people are being fed misinformation combined with real pain. Inflation numbers came out today. What are some of the biggest costs in our lives? Insurance, homeowners insurance, health insurance, car insurance. And in health insurance, it's captive. There's nothing you can do about it and you need it to get any medical treatment.

Okay, how weird does it feel to be called someone's fiancé? The first time you hear it, you do a double take. Your heart kind of flutters. And before you know it, you go from, let's enjoy this moment, to, we're planning a fall wedding! That's where Zola comes in. Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place and have fun along the way.

From free planning tools like a budget tracker and website to a venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team, everything on Zola is designed to make your wedding journey as easy as possible. And with invites that can be completely customized and a wedding registry packed with gifts you actually want, Zola takes you from save our date to thanks so much without breaking a sweat. From getting engaged to getting married, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. Start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A dot com.

Time to move? Skip the hassles of selling during the holiday season and sell your home directly to Opendoor. Request an all-cash offer in minutes, close, and get paid in days. You can even pick your close date so you can move after New Year's. Start your move at opendoor.com or download the Opendoor app. Opendoor is represented by Opendoor Brokerage, Inc., licensed 0206-1130 in California, and Opendoor Brokerage, LLC, in its other markets. Terms and conditions apply. This is an ad from BetterHelp.

This holiday season, do something for a special person in your life. You. Give yourself the gift of better mental health. BetterHelp Online Therapy connects you with a qualified therapist via phone, video, or live chat. It's convenient and affordable and can be done from the comfort of your own home. Having someone to talk to is truly a gift, especially during the holidays. Visit BetterHelp.com to learn more and save 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com.

I keep coming back to this question, like, why is our basic health insured? Like, you insure something that, against a catastrophe.

we're all human beings. We're all marching in one direction. So it's like, why do we have insurance for it? I know this probably sounds crazy. Like I'm basically just going to say, oh, I'm arguing for like a single payer system with maybe like some supplements. And then you should build an incentives for people to have preventative care, but not like, oh, you have to go to the gym, prove that you went to the gym 150 times a year. Do you get $200 off? Like there should be a preventive system. People should be screened for things. Like I think of

so many women I know who find out when they're 32 and want to have a kid that they have PCOS, they have endometriosis, they have fibroids, they can't have a baby because they have some sort of random condition that they would have never known they have. And that condition didn't just affect their ability to have kids. I found out I have PCOS and I can now trace seven different things in my life to that. And it's like, would it just been so easy to give me the medication to regulate that?

when I was 15, and it would have saved me a lot of issues. Like, it's kind of, why don't you get screened for things like this right away when I had every single obvious symptom, and it had to take me freezing my eggs and, like, to figure this out out of my own pocket? It's a broken system that's only gotten more and more and more broken. And what's interesting about that American young voter, you know, earlier this week, Donald Trump was asked about the TikTok ban.

And would you want to uphold it? Something that's been already passed, basically. And he didn't answer the question. He said, TikTok, you know, I really won with the youths. I had a great social media guy. His name was, you know, I can't even remember what we called him, blah, blah, blah. They love my content on TikTok.

What was amazing to me is, right, TikTok's not going to go away. Donald Trump's not going to do anything about it. But a lot of these people who voted for him because this idea that he's going to break the system, he's going to change it, he's going to burn it down and make it work for you, he's not going to. And when you look at things, you know, all the people he's surrounding himself with, for the most part, many of them are extraordinarily successful business people, good on them. But the answer from business people to government is often privatize, privatize, privatize.

If we go that route, it's only going to get more expensive. That and we are like, the vibe I'm getting is very French Revolution. And let them, you know, there's no one saying let them eat cake. But when you look at your feed and you're seeing images of people eating,

in war. You're seeing people like the shooter. You're seeing, you're reading all of people's stories about their insurance, about how horribly they've been treated by insurance. And then you're seeing someone doing their makeup and getting ready with me. And like, here's my clothing haul. And look at me on my private jet. And you are getting the message of let them eat cake simply by having like your brain, your brain can't process those two things. Okay. You are, you are 100% correct in that last week,

I did an event with high school personal finance teachers. That exists now? I would have loved that. It does. You know, it's funny. I'm 48 years old. When I went to high school, they had home economics, which everyone just thinks was cooking. But home ec was actually-

sewing and personal finance, home economics. It's how do you get a loan? How do you get a budget? We forget about that part. They taught you that? Yes, we forget about that part because we're like, no, it was just cooking. It was sewing. It's how do you sew a button on? We stopped having those electives and many schools are coming back. But the reason I bring it up is what I kept hearing over and over from these teachers, teenagers now are so living online and sucked into this system of I'm just going to be an influencer.

I don't need to learn about any of this stuff. I'm going to be an influencer. That clothing haul that you're talking about, I'm going to do a few posts and brands are going to sponsor me and they're going to send me gear. And I'm going to take that money and I'm going to invest it in crypto. And I'm going to become a day trader. They might as well say, like, I'm going to be a famous actress. Correct. But when you're seeing it en masse—

And when you're looking online, it feels like there's countless influencers and they're making all this money. So I was talking to some teachers that were like, I can't get these kids to focus on here's how a mortgage works. I'm going to explain interest rates where they're like, I don't need a mortgage. I'm going to be paying for a fat apartment in New York City cash.

and they believe it. And that, so think about, how do you tell them like, no, that's not going to happen because your brain is only seeing right now. You're not getting this money now. But they don't believe it because it's the ultimate okay boomer. No, but also okay boomer. Jake Paul just made a zillion dollars wearing- One of him. Yes. There's only one of him. Like,

At the time, there was only one Elvis. But they look at a Jake Paul. They look at all these women influencers and they're like, well, just a few years ago, they weren't anything. I could be that too. And so take the— They might as well say, my plan is to win the lottery. Listen, I agree 100%. Like, you've just made your career plan to win Powerball.

But start when a kid is 11 and 12 and they're online and their fear of missing out. Okay, when I was 11 and 12 and I didn't get invited to a sleepover, maybe I heard about it, maybe I didn't, I moved on. Like days later too. Correct. Now, all of that exists.

online, on Instagram, on Snapchat, right? The whole, you know, Snapchat is I'm just going to swipe and do this weird picture of myself to show all of you that I'm not sitting at home, that I'm at a cool place. And that place is cooler than wherever you are. And I'm with cool people. So let's start there when a person's 10 and that fear of missing out is really creating rot

in their stomach. Now it's going further and further. And now the people are becoming older and older and they're like, wait a minute, I can't afford school. I can't afford rent. I can't afford this. And then they go online and people are, I'm headed to the Superbowl on a PJ with my boys. Okay.

Not only do we have extreme wealth inequality. So when you first say, I'm getting French Revolution, I'm like, girl, what are you talking about? Like, we're the most prosperous country in the world. We have more people working today than ever. People are doing so well. But that's irrelevant. How people feel is relevant. Well, also, factually, inequality is more than it's ever been. And the idea that you can then see all

these people who have done so well, they're all on vacation. Sometimes I walk down the street and I'm like, how is there so much to buy? Like how, who is buying all of it?

I genuinely am like, who, how? How can there be so many stores, so many hotels, so many restaurants? Who is buying all that? There's not that many people who can afford a bag, like this stupid bag that's $3,000 and then also like live their lives. Like there just has to be a limit. And I don't understand like where all these people are getting this money and I see wealthy people. Okay, you ready for your rage? Connect that rage to the immigrant crisis.

OK, eight years ago, when the child separation policy happened, people said this is an act against humanity. This can't be happening in our country. We cannot do this. Fast forward. You've got governors Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott. Well, it may have been hurtful, harmful. It was brilliant politically. They sent migrants to cities all across the country.

Now we just had an election where you saw huge shifts where the South Bronx voted for Donald Trump. Suburbs of Long Island, parts of Queens, New Jersey, where I'm from. Remember when Trump did a rally in the South Bronx? People were like, what in the hell is he doing here? He's never going to win. And then he did extraordinarily well. And this goes back to the point you were making a moment ago. You walk down the street and you're going, how is there all this stuff for sale? How are there all these hotels? Well,

When people are driving over the bridge from New Jersey and what they pay for the bridge now, $14, $16? $16.

Now it's $100 for them to park. That hotel that maybe they used to stay at, a husband and wife, every few years is a treat. $800 a night. Correct. They can't afford it. It's hundreds and hundreds of dollars a night, plus the add-on fees, plus the resort fee, plus the tax. Plus the living wage fee. Correct. And then they're driving down the West Side Highway and they're seeing migrants that are standing there. And then they're saying, hold on a minute.

That group of people lives at the Roosevelt Hotel. They got a cell phone. They got a stipend. They're getting a meal plan. And even if all of that isn't true, even if a portion of it is true, even if crime isn't spiking, that rage, that French Revolution rage that that person is feeling driving down the West Side Highway is real. And because at the end of the day, most people—

It is not about what their political affiliation is. They want the world to be fair. And when you don't feel like things are fair, you are pissed and you're saying things are good for that person and that person and not me. And if we start to come from this place of,

that every person deserves to be and wants to be physically safe, socially free, financially secure. And to me, those three verticals are the three verticals that government should always have in mind. Not that we have to run perfectly and efficiently and like a business. We need to make sure that people have these three columns, right? In order for their lives to function.

So people feel like these three areas are not currently secure and they're mad and things aren't fair. So when they see something like that guy having gotten shot,

yes, they should think the lack of humanity, how could this happen? If we don't have decency, we have nothing. But people aren't considering decency and civility, right? Decency and civility are point zero, are zero. That's the starting point. But we're not currently operating at the starting point. And that's why this fragile system, I think, is so broken. I completely agree. I think that that's what people are looking at. It's not like

I resent that every person has something I don't have. I think people understand a level of unfairness and they're willing to entertain that. And I think even in some ways, like, people aspire and they respect someone who has worked hard and gotten somewhere. But,

What I imagine the people who are cheering on this shooter are thinking is, well, that guy has killed effectively my family member because his company denied the treatment that they paid for because they've been paying premiums. And he has now made $10 million a year plus the $15 million he took off the table when he inside traded allegedly, potentially, $10 million.

And it's like, is that like he's literally living his life because their family, because of their family members deaths, you could say. So where do we put this? Right. So if you are the health insurance industry, where do you put this? I am getting out of the business. Like, I don't believe that health should be insured. I'm doing what something like what Mark Cuban's doing with cost plus drugs.

And I wanted to even start this conversation with like, okay, people are cheering on the murder, but what kind of action would they maybe have cheered on that was an act of justice that was not murder? And one thing I was thinking was about the show, you ever seen Mr. Robot, where they like hack the whole system and they clear the debt? I was like, that would be a good use of someone's engineering skills. But-

Even beyond that, I'm thinking, I think about the co-founder of Cost Plus Drugs, who emailed Mark Cuban a cold email with his idea for this cost plus premium, a certain percentage pharmacy, and that would drive down the costs and consumers could just buy directly from them, no insurance.

To me, that seems like a really productive way of using one's intelligence and understanding of the system in order to actually create a solution that could ultimately be competitive. And now why don't we do that for like radiology and for like blood tests and for all these other pieces of the system and then force the insurers to provide a better product? So I think this mindset that you have is part of the...

open-mindedness or the celebration of an Elon Musk going to Washington. But I don't celebrate him. I know you don't. Yes, yes. I know you don't. But like, just stay with me while I try to connect this. So...

There's lots of reasons not to celebrate him, but there's this, there's this, I keep hearing from people, Elon Musk is so screwed when he goes to Washington. He has Potomac fever, which is this idea of business people go to Washington. They're so successful. They're going to change it. They're going to fix it. And then they're slammed into the bureaucracy and they can't.

That's what happens to kind of every business person that walks in. And again, I'm not endorsing Elon Musk. I'm just walking you through it. But Elon Musk does live outside the lines, right? He is a brilliant inventor, creator, business person who has said, F the system. I'm going to break it and I'm going to make something better.

Take Twitter. We could all say he destroyed it. He fired all the people. They lost all their advertisers. I don't know. Did he destroy it? I'm still on it. Not for his own purposes. I'm still on it and not for his own purposes. Right, right. Twitter, in large part, in my opinion, in the last two years has been used to push right wing ideology and it worked.

Yeah. Right? Yes, he spent $250 million. He's made a zillion since then. Donald Trump's campaign had and spent way less than Kamala's, and social media was a boon for him. But the reason I'm getting back to this is,

People keep laughing, saying he has no power in this Department of Government Efficiency. It's over there in Siberia. It's just an advisory group. They can't do anything. Maybe they can't. But also, the people who want them to get nothing done are part of a bureaucratic system. And so I'm just saying, this goes back to your original point. Can't we just break this? Can't we use this cost-plus model and do something else? We only can...

If someone actually says, F the system, let's start over. Now, your, what I think, fear and concern is like, yes, let's say F the system and let's start over. But let's not have Donald Trump and Elon Musk behind the wheel. I think that's what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. F the system, like—

But I don't think that like doing, like, I don't think that when you screw the system, you're necessarily helping the people that you intended to help. So I'm very wary of like reactionary, just, oh, just get rid of this system. Like most people who say that don't actually, aren't that well acquainted with the system they want to throw out in general. And they don't necessarily understand it. And I don't want to say I do, because I really hardly can get my mind around like what a PBM is. But I think that like, this is, I don't believe that it is unfixable to,

without like, without having a revolution. Like, I don't think you need to have a, you know, the French revolution or you need to be shooting CEOs in order to find solutions. To me, you never, ever, ever need to shoot a CEO or anyone, but you do need a revolutionary mind to make something happen. I'm going to give you a business example. And there's lots of reasons why people don't like this person. We'll put that aside. Travis Kalanick, the co-founder of Uber,

He was then kicked out of the company, so on and so forth. If Travis hadn't had an F you to the system mindset, Uber never would have existed because in every city in this country, the taxi and limousine commission, the people who own taxi medallions would have pushed Uber out so it couldn't have happened.

You have to have a revolutionary mind to say, we really want to change the system and improve it. And it's very difficult to do that within an existing system because there's tons of job functions that should get broken up. There's tons of businesses that shouldn't exist.

And it's very hard to do that when you're saying, I want to take baby steps. Kara Swisher and I once had an argument. This one was more about politics and I, being somebody who has never been

oppressed or discriminated against for my age, my sex, my race, my sexual orientation, my religion. I'm always like, can't we just take baby steps? Can't we just take one foot in front of the other? We don't have to burn the house down. And Kara said to me, you think we don't have to burn the house down because no one has ever tried to burn yours down.

And so I think you and I are like two ships in the night here that you're like, we need a French Revolution mindset. We have to break this. We have to start over. No, I'm saying there will be a French Revolution type situation if people do not solve this problem. So we need people. Yeah.

Not necessarily in Elon Musk, but the reason people are open to the idea of an Elon Musk is because they need people to say, these systems that we have aren't working and there needs some sort of radical change in order to improve them. And I think that the demand for radical change in part comes from the rage machine. Listen, there is a concentrated...

business of hate complex out there that's only ratcheting up the anger. And that is, I think, partly driven by our adversaries, but they're tapping into something real. So speaking to Elon Musk, revolutionary mindset, but ultimately very greedy.

Why is there only one Mark Cuban? Like, why is there only one guy who's like, I'm going to start a public benefit corporation and I'm not going to become this greedy psychopath who has to be thrown out of my company? Why is it so hard for people who have so much money to be like, you know, I'm good. Like, if I don't make more, like, I'll just be good. Like, you're fine. You're fine.

So I think— Why are people so discontent with—it always has to be more. Like, why can't you say, like, I actually am fine now? I think that's part of human nature. And, like, let's be clear. Mark Cuban is a hugely successful guy. He's made an enormous amount of money. I think it's part of human nature, especially a lot of people who are the high, high, highest achiever levels. Just the other day, I was thinking about this. Some of the most extraordinarily successful people in the private equity industry—

who are in their 70s. In my mind, in my 70s, if I'm one of these guys- Retire. Retire. Island. Live on an island. But these guys are trolling the earth, yes, on their airplanes, looking for deals, looking for deals. And this is an adrenaline addiction. This is oftentimes when you encounter people that are the highest level of business excellence and competitiveness-

They don't ever have a feeling of content. They reach a goal, they want the next one, the next one, and they are just trolling the earth for the next deal, the next deal, the next deal. It's who they are. Are they excellent or are they addicted?

Because are you so excellent at one thing? They're excellent at deal making and they're addicted to it. But the sadness is... But aren't you so excellent when you have all the money and all the leverage and the lawyers? Like, are you actually that good? Or are you just seeing companies that for them, $20 million sounds like a great deal because they have been running a small business for a long time. But for this guy who's been trolling the earth for a great deal, he...

It's like nothing. It's going to use his line of credit for it. It's how you define excellence, right? When I think about— Do you think just making the most money is what is— I know it might be for these people. Definitely not for me. And if you're not happy, what's the fucking point? If you can't even sit and be just—

happy in your health and wealth on your yacht, what are you doing? What is the point? Go live on Mars and like have a billionaire competition. Like why can't they leave the rest of us the fuck alone? Because everybody defines happiness in a different way, right? So that wouldn't be happiness to me,

But for those people, that status, the notches on their belt, the deals that they won is their idea of happiness. What it's not is giving them any peace whatsoever. And so that's why like a lot of people are amazed that all these people who know better

on lots of Donald Trump issues, who know better on tariffs and how damaging they would be to our economy, who know better in terms of their wives and their daughters and bodily autonomy, but they just know that a vote for Donald Trump means they're never facing the wealth tax. They know that carried interest will never be touched. And so different people have different priorities. And part of the rage that you're talking about in young people and in Gen Z and about the health insurance industry is,

industry goes back to things like social security. Young people are like, F the

that I'm paying into a broken system that's never, ever, ever going to pay me back. Lawmakers know this, but unfortunately, they can't do anything about it. There's tons of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle that know that we need entitlement reform, but in order to enact entitlement reform, they can't get elected. Senior citizens are one reliable group of voters, and you ain't touching their Social Security.

Is it fair to touch their social security either? They paid. Agreed. These aren't like, these aren't like, okay. Have you ever asked any of these people who are so afraid of like losing the carried interest loophole? Like, have you ever asked them like, what are you so afraid of? Like, you'll just find another way to make money. Like, it'll be fine. You'll be fine. Your money is budding on itself already. What is the, just like, can't it be enough? Like how much can you spend in a year? How much can you spend? Truly.

Carried interest is a unique one because no one wants to talk about it. Okay? Yeah. There's not a single lawmaker. Every lawmaker I ever interview, I'm always like, by the way, would you protect the carried interest loophole? No one ever, ever wants to talk about it because carried interest is an absolute giveaway. There are just some protections in business and businesses are saying, I'm not getting rid of it. And part of this is- But they're not in charge. They're not supposed to be in charge. But they are. And right now-

Thanks to Citizens United, there is more money in politics. I mean, what was Jon Tester's? I mean, hundreds of millions of dollars for elections in places like Montana. Right. Kamala Harris's campaign had over a billion dollars. Right. People are just putting more and more and more and more money into the system. Because think about this. We're sitting here debating whether or not TikTok should be banned in the United States.

What about all of the other social media companies? They face almost zero regulation in this country. This goes back to the first thing we talked about. Everything that I say or I do on my news broadcast is reviewed by legal and standards. And what I get wrong, the FCC will come for you. You're liable. You could be sued for it.

Social media is where Gen Z and scores of other people get their news and they face absolutely no regulations. Why? How? Because they have such enormous lobbying efforts, no one actually creates the framework. And now, when you hear the likes of Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos say they're excited to get involved in government and they really want to help with deregulation, we need to remind our audience what deregulation is. Yes, deregulation

There is some bad, painful, onerous, unnecessary regulation. If you were a professional hair braider in New York City and you wanted to move to New York and be a hair braider in Chicago, you'd have to get a whole new set of licenses to do that, right? There's some ridiculous regulation. But this idea— Isn't that like a racket, though? Yes. That's just a racket. Tons of regulation is. A racket, yes. But like tons of regulation. Credit scores? Credit scores.

tons of credit scores. And by the way, I urge people, you can get it once a year for free. Go get your credit score because there's a really good chance there's a mistake in it. Oh, yeah. There's a mistake in it. And what that credit score is directly impacts so many elements of your financial life. And the longer you let it go, it's like real. Yes. Yeah. But, but,

Just this idea, let's get rid of regulation, is so dangerous. And of course, these guys want to be involved in it. Just like my children want to be involved in the rules that we set for them. Yeah, my kids would love to be like, all right, I'm in charge of what the rules are for me. And I'm going to pick what my allowance is. So all these businesses saying, I want to be involved in regulation. Sure. You want to be involved in what's known as regulatory capture.

Create regulations that are difficult for the other guy and great for you. But also even regulations, the corporate legal complex has become so savvy that the right, like, okay, so you write a regulation and then they make a new business entity to work their way around it. That's how OptimaRx and all of these

pharmaceutical benefit managers came to be because there was a law in Obamacare that you have to spend 80% of the premiums on actual medical care. So what they did is they own these pharmaceutical benefit managers, which are where people get their pills and their prescriptions. And they basically then work out these shady deals. Literally, I can't think of what the name is. It's

Basically, if you ever wonder why you need a rebate card to get your birth control and suddenly your birth control goes from being $500 to $20, that's because of the deals between these PBMs and insurance companies who are basically worked around this regulation that they have to spend this money and they end up paying themselves inflated prices. Yes. So that's why your drugs are so expensive. That's why they're able to make so many profits because of an attempt at...

Yes. So they'll just write a new one. What you've just laid out is the heart of regulatory capture. So after the financial crisis, when they put all these new regulations on banks—

which was a good idea in theory, it strangled the little banks because the little banks couldn't afford to hire 200 more compliance officers, couldn't afford to do all this. But if I'm JP Morgan, I'm the 800-pound gorilla. I can afford all of that.

So when you create more regulations, if you don't do it in the right way, it strangles the smaller business because they can't afford to follow these new rules. And the big guys are like, sure, I can do that. No problem. And also you have the people who are working in the government, making the regulations, then going to big law. Then you have the people in big law going to the government to make the regulations. And if you think they don't still text their friends in their old workplace, that's insane.

This is why many people are open to this idea that,

of an Elon Musk going to Washington. And because- Crazy. Yes, because he does understand the systems. He sees where the loopholes are and they think he's going to close them. Now, you're going to say to me, yes, but he's going to close them to help himself. And he's going to help himself. Well, the counter argument would be, yes, but that's already happening. The system's so screwed. If he pays himself and enriches himself, fine.

as long as we also benefit too. That's the mindset. They might as well close their own coffin then, because that's literally what they're doing. But right now they're saying the system is so screwed, let's do something, because the way it's currently set up makes absolutely no sense. Well, they're right.

Thank you so much. This has been very fun. It's been amazing. Everyone should watch Nightcap tomorrow night. You're going to be on. I'm going to be on. And Uncle Sylvia, Sylvia, you'll see. It's going to be an awesome. I saw it. I got an email. Very excited. It's going to be awesome. Steven Van Zandt. My mother's very excited. All right. Until next time, I'm Sammy Sage, and this is American Fever Dream. Good night.

American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatzik. Social media by Candice Monega and Bridget Schwartz. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Betches News and follow me, Sammy Sage at Sammy and V at Under the Desk News. And of course, send us your emails to AmericanFeverDream at Betches.com.