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cover of episode A legal architect of Guantanamo questions Trump's El Salvador plan

A legal architect of Guantanamo questions Trump's El Salvador plan

2025/5/2
logo of podcast Consider This from NPR

Consider This from NPR

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People
D
Donald Rumsfeld
E
Elsa Chang
J
John Yoo
N
Noah Bullock
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Elsa Chang: 本节目讨论了美国将被拘留者送往海外监狱无限期拘留的问题,这在2025年和20年前的关塔那摩都发生过。关塔那摩被批评为法律黑洞,因为被拘留者既没有日内瓦公约的权利,也没有美国宪法的权利。特朗普政府将移民驱逐到萨尔瓦多,也被比作将他们送入司法黑洞。 特朗普政府将至少261名外国人驱逐到萨尔瓦多的监狱,美国声称对这些案件拥有外交政策的权力,美国法院无权干涉。萨尔瓦多的例外状态已经常态化,国家可以对任何人做任何事,没有任何机构可以干预以保护权利。 Donald Rumsfeld: 我认为关塔那摩湾是当时能选择的相对较好的地点,其缺点相对于其他选择来说是微不足道的。 Noah Bullock: 萨尔瓦多的例外状态已经常态化,国家可以对任何人做任何事,没有任何机构可以干预以保护权利。 John Yoo: 布什政府和特朗普政府的做法存在表面相似之处,但也有重要区别,主要在于战争状态是否存在以及是否给予被拘留者正当程序。9/11袭击后,布什政府、国会和最高法院都认为美国处于战争状态,而特朗普政府声称与委内瑞拉处于战争状态则缺乏其他部门的支持。布什政府认为在美国境内被捕的人有权获得正当程序,而特朗普政府似乎采取相反的观点,认为可以根据《敌侨法》驱逐在美国境内的人,而无需任何正当程序。特朗普政府的做法是对既定规则的挑战。9/11后和当前的情况非常不同,这不利于特朗普政府。9/11后美国法律对酷刑的定义非常模糊,而现在对酷刑和驱逐的定义则更加清晰。美国法律不允许将人驱逐到可能遭受酷刑的地方。

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The U.S. has sent people it has detained — people it calls terrorists — to a prison overseas — indefinitely.This is true in 2025, after the Trump administration deported at least 261 foreign nationals to a maximum security prison in El Salvador.And it was also true two decades ago, following the attacks of Sept. 11, after the U.S. government began to house captured Taliban and al-Qaida fighters in the military prison at the U.S. Naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.During the George W. Bush administration, John Yoo wrote the legal justification for the treatment of Guantanamo detainees, now widely referred to as "the torture memos."Yoo argues that there are key legal differences between what the Bush administration did – and what the Trump administration is attempting in El Salvador.For sponsor-free episodes of Consider This, sign up for Consider This+ via Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org).Email us at [email protected]).Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoices)NPR Privacy Policy)